I'm an emergency manager and if Bayer or anyone else tried to pull that "I can't tell you" crap, my response would absolutely be "I can't send my responders into a situation without that info. So until you can tell me what we're dealing with, we'll be focusing on evacuation efforts in the nearby neighborhoods." There's no way I'm asking my first responders to risk their lives by going into an unknown situation because some Corp wants to cover their ass.
Yes. And as far as I'm concerned, my response would be the absolute worst possible thing happened. Shelter in place? HELL NO! Evacuations until it is proven unnecessary.
CropScience... more like CorpScience, protecting the Corporation. You are talking to firefighters and other first responders, they need to know what they are up against.
Bayer developed Heroin [the trade name for the synthetic opioid now used like the name Kleenex is for stuff to blow your nose on], and used Auschwitz as their testing ground for drugs by intentionally giving prisoners typhus, malaria, and other diseases to test their medication. Acetylsalicylic acid is available from many many companies that don't owe their fortune to piggybacking on genocide to do pharmaceutical research. F**k Bayer.
@@walterbrunswick Look at how many war criminals escaped to Argentina that should have been put under the jail at Nuremberg. There's plausible speculation that Hitler was not the body in the bunker. Not proof, just potential. Germany had a great industrial community and the beloved VW Beetle is a symbol of Dr. Porsche's commitment to the party. As a Euro car guy I own the modern Beetle and an '81 Rabbit. People will seek advantages whenever available and defectors were easy to come by after WWII and during the Cold War. Some had more blood on their hands than others.
As a firefighter, we had a lot of tractor trailer accidents on a section of road. We would call the police “coptometers” because no matter what the truck was carrying the cops would just head right for the truck. So we figured if the cops were laying on the ground when we got there, it’s hazardous, if not then we were good.
its designed to be enjoyable i think to ensure people can actually understand and watch/learn; though it comes at a byproduct of being good binge material, alot can be learnt due to how its formatted basically: its good content, its bingable as byproduct - bingability means you can watch all of them one after another and enjoy
"We have an emergency at Bayer CropScience plant and the only information I'll give you is that you need... and you might wanna... alert the community... as my supervisor told me to inform you to do. Alert the community that there is an emergency at the plant." Wanting help, but not wanting to tell what happened.
Don’t know about West Virginia State Police, but if you told OHSP or PSP that you refuse to release details about a hazmat incident, never mind that the building has exploded, you will be very quickly arrested with numerous charges, including impeding emergency response, and obstructing criminal investigation.
@@CircsCit's not the person, it's the company. Although the person should have just done the right thing and answered the questions, any attempt at a lawsuit with a jury would have been in their favor.
"I'm not allowed to give any more information"?...what the hell...! Yeah, that really helped. They think that info is classified or what? They are firefighters, not the CIA...
They're trying to cover the company from lawsuits and criminal charges. They don't want to say something on a 911 tape for the record. It's sick, I know.
@@TomNovak2113 It's likely they'd've been fired if they gave out information. Because some companies legitimately do that. Someone was even fired recently from a Safeway for reporting rats, expired food products, under-the-table dealings, mold, and a homeless man living in the store's attic and shitting on the floor. Very few (if any) employees cover for their employer willingly. It's usually coercion and extortion. The fact that one employer manufacturing a few lies about you can destroy your future is beyond infuriating. The working class in America lives under the thumb of employers, with zero power and leverage on our side unless we unionize (which is difficult despite protections for unionizing workers, because employers also implement 'legal' union-busting tactics).
You should check out their latest videos starting with the Wisconsin asphalt disaster posted a month ago. Absolutely unreal! The graphics are literally like 5x more realistic, to the point where some shots are indistinguishable from live TV news coverage.
"Two teenagers who were joyriding on an ATV struck a propane pipeline" i think your first problem was not installing a goddamn fence around your propane tank
That's the thing They shouldn't have been on the property in the first place And putting a fence around the TANK wouldn't have stopped them from hitting the propane lines anyway
@@PartyhatRS so what your saying is that if some teens got onto your property and burned the gas cans you had in your shed then you should be the one at fault then?
@@PartyhatRS YES, they were trespassing YES, the Tank AND Pipes should have been plainly marked and visible YES, the Tank AND Pipes should have been reasonably protected. No ONE thing is 100% responsible. The kids caused it.. 'Accidentally', but they DID! Did they TELL ANYONE?? (Not that it would've helped) The lack of markings, signs, fencing, etc, was clearly the owner/operator. That just strikes me as common-sense! Just because it may not be written in the law, regulations, 'best-practices' handbook, etc doesn't mean it's not just a common-sense good idea!!!
@@GMan-yv8cb I don't have any weird chemicals stored on my farm. But, you know what? I strictly control who has access to the farm. It doesn't matter...if I'm not there, you ain't getting in! I MUST be present with you. And I'm NOT going to say "yeah, just go ahead and wander around wherever you want". You don't even need exotic chemicals around for it to be a dangerous area.
@@NiceMuslimLady I totally agree with you. I guess I was just pointing out that important or dangerous situations SHOULD be identified and marked. From a business perspective, it probably would've much cheaper to just mark it - IN ADDITION to restricting access ! I think back to my many years on this Earth, and there were times that even being 'authorized' or 'escorted',, knowing where hazards were helped me reach tomorrow! As I said, the kids caused the incident! They should be held accountable! But, if they were able to avoid the pipe in the first place, the whole situation would've been avoided.
@@Gkuljian I think we could be a CDB Team😁 I live near a cement processing/fabrication of those big pipes. Oooeee..haha this is me👀 at those trucks, towers etc.☺️
2:22 no sir The tragedy of this case is that they have the propane lines above ground to where people can hit them instead of having them buried 4 feet under the ground like they’re supposed to in my view signed Jr C.S.B ☠️
Love this channel. Very informative and interesting. I'm going into the medical field myself and it's always great to learn new things before filling out those college papers
That guy that withheld information from responders; “I’m not allowed to tell you, just that we have an emergency”; I hope his ass was charged in court!
I hope he was too. Shouldn't be just him though; I doubt he would've said that if it wasn't official company policy. The executives that came up with that should've been before a court, too.
CSB, why aren't more managers criminally charged for these accidents? Like the Bayer managers? I bet this tactic might increase safety if there is a consequence for their negligence.
If I’m not mistaken, neither CSB nor NTSB can speculate on criminal liability, though the local law enforcement may use their reports against those involved. Though at the time, I’d say that charging Operations Director Helpful with interfering with emergency response and several other charges of similar intentions wouldn’t be at the top of the list, especially at the time.
@@jaysmith1408 I don't know about NTSB, but, I do know, CSB is strictly advisory. The thinking is that "if they don't have to be afraid of being prosecuted they'll be more forthcoming". I don't know if CSB investigations can even be used in any punitive proceedings. So, kind of like "we are giving you immunity". How forthcoming would YOU be if you thought "I could go to prison for the rest of my life if I admit to that mistake"?
US is a pioneer country and developed which already passed along the years by throughout several emergency situations and learned with property and life losses. Now you can imagine how is the size of the exposures on the countries such as Brazil, India, China where the economy started to grow on the last years and now they are facing the same problems and situations that already happened in US. The strengths is that we have much more access to the information such this video. Thank you CSB, excellent material!
“So like there’s an emergency at the plant. Chemical leak I guess” “Ok where’s the problem? What chemicals? Any information” “I can’t tell you” “The fuck do you want me to do then?”
Safety always. If you have chemicals in your workspace the manager needs to know what chemicals are stored and used at workplace. And what to do if theirs an emergency.
Perhaps he knew but was too busy covering his, and the company, reputation and legal interests. If this was the case for this emergency, stop doing that! Emergency responders neee to know what they are dealing with. The local community will probably find out later, whether you tell responders or not!
Can someone explain to me why these chemical companys are not required to have their own crews to deal with hazmat emergencies? Its insulting to volunteer first responders to have the csb claim that they should be more informed of the hazards in their communities when this video shows the operators of these processes providing vague at best information of the chemical released.
That's the problem when law changes from state to state and even from community to community. It should be a no brainer that the authorities should be informed about any hazards in their community and they should know how to deal with them. That of course implies they were are handed such information beforehand!
Because these companies are required to never let their plants blow up. Now ask yourself how well that requirement does when the company is so negligent in the first place. 99% of companies run continuously 24/7 without much issue. These are freak cases. And in these freak cases where the management didnt care enough to prevent it, they are certainly not going to care enough to spend so much money training a crew.
Re the propane tank fire: have zero training and even i know being that close to a burning BOMB, essentially, is the wrong idea. Is this a matter of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? Bravado? Masters of fire invincibility syndrome? Every emergency unit should have weekly hazard hours. Being fully informed of the wide array of hazards is the best prevention. This series is the answer. Should be mandatory watch.
Generally their training was correct. A standard propane take explosion WOULD blow at the weakest points (the ends) but it was an unknown chemical process that lead to the more general explosion.
Fire fighters have a very strong instinct that compels them to stay and deal with any hazard and ignore the possible consequences. They need someone in higher authority to see the hazard for what it really is and directly order them away from the hazardous area, otherwise they will stay in the blast zone thinking they can stop it.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Regardless of all the IOS that people use, Sirens and audible public alerting systems are a damn good idea. Redundant systems need to be in place.
"I can't give you any other information other than it's an emergency" "OK sorry I can't send any help until you tell what situation we're dealing with"
Ensign MJS the pipes would have been virtually invisible at night. They should have been buried underground, or at least marked with reflectors and illuminated. BLEVE training should also be absolutely basic for emergency responders. I’m a thirteen year old, and I know what a bleve is. Regardless, the loss of life was tragic.
@@samschannel531 What I would like to know: How did they get onto the property! If there wasn't a fence around it, why not? I don't know of anyplace that has dangerous goods that does NOT have a fence around it with gates that are kept closed.
From my understanding; in a "normal" pressure explosion, the weakest parts of the tank (the ends) would blow out at *extremely* high force, which is why they thought they'd be safe from the "sides". The physics gets really odd, but figured you'd at least want *some* explanation!
@@thePalindromeCrafter I see, I've seen explosions in the military. I know there is a predictable direction, but the shrapnel just seems like it goes anywhere. Know what I mean? I'd just let the damn thing blow or spray it from behind a barrier.
May be I'm thick in the head, but what I don't understand is why these large volume propane tanks are right out in the open without any blast barrier in case of an explosion. Is there no local or federal legislation that takes into consideration the level of potential hazard. I think big tanks should be treated like a bomb depot & surrounded with heavy earth-works of soil or be half dug in below the surrounding ground so any blast will be deflected up. How many more need to be injured?
It may be to ensure that there is clear ventilation around the tank so in the event of a slow leak the vapor doesn't collect around the tank and lead to a fuel-air explosion.
Its probably a cost thing and its just not practical at most city service stations. They just dont have the room to build that kind of thing. Its a wonder no terrorists have tried to explode a propane tank or LPG tank. There is usually no security around them.
If this was the case then you would need berms all over the place since even the tank on a common BBQ setup could explode and cause deaths up to 500 Ft away. A BLEVE is not a common occurrence and preventable if an adequate water supply is available for cooling.
Ah you mean berms like the dirt hills lined behind open shooting ranges. At Kings Bay Navy base there is a "safe harbor" truck park with berms around it so that chemical haulers can be left safely unattended.
"Huh, would you look at that? A propane leak. Inside the building, no less! Well, let's just stay inside this confined space. Let's at least put up a sign that says "STORE CLOSED DUE TO GAS LEAK". It's not like this store just got turned into a fucking bomb, right? Also, could you pass me my vape?"
I don't know why the fire fighters thought or were trained to believe the ends of the tank were the most likely to be dangerous. Elementary stress analysis shows that an over pressurised cylindrical container will always split longitudinally., that is along the side. I would not have been within 100 yards.
I’m fascinated with infrastructure & industrial failures. Where I used to work those failures resulted mostly in lost product, downtime, and expensive repairs. Generally not life threatening safety situations, but occasionally someone got hurt or killed dealing with problems. And of course there was always a “cover your ass” policy in place so that when something did happen it was always the employees fault. It became evident to me that somewhere in the ownership or management chain there were decisions made that it was cheaper to accept these costs than to structure things so that they didn’t happen. When a potential problem was identified, objection raised, and suggestions made on a better way of doing things, there was always a cost benefit analysis done and from somewhere in the mucky-muck department came some version of the statement “that shouldn’t happen!” Be it a plane crash (many of them at least), a bridge collapse, or a CSB type disaster it seems the one consistent factor that always shows up in the aftermath is our old friend “that shouldn’t happen”. It took me until my retirement years to learn this and I won’t be involved in anything going forward where I could make a difference. If I were to offer my 2 cents it would be this- when someone says “that shouldn’t happen” or even worse “that can’t happen” stop the presses and go back to square one.
Allowing the top of the boiler to get too hot always causes explosions, we've known this since the start of medium pressure steam engines in the 1700s. There is absolutely no reason why the firemen at the turkey farm would not have known to keep water on the tank itself.
not trained, or equipped - that is unexcusable. No wonder people question the capability of volunteer fire departments. I was paid for 20.5 years, now a volunteer chief for 13 (run a fire school in OR). Thank you the the CSB for these films. Stick your fingers in your ears, and wait for the big boom, what kind of training is that?
Paul Reynolds I was at a paid Fire Dept. got certified as a Fireman in 2005 and to this day never saw this video before. It has nothing to do with the department being Volunteer or Paid, it has to do with the quality of the instructors and leaders of the departments.
Im not sure they have all their videos on their website, whcih you can I thnk download for free. I dont have quicktime and most are on youtube anyways.
Peter F.: If only the impact could be limited to the company’s employees... but of course that’s rarely the case especially when dealing with dangerous chemicals. Carrying that out would very likely lead to innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the company getting affected...
A large railroad tank wagon with pressurized chlorine gas? Is that still allowed in the US after 9/11? If someone blows up or derails this tank wagon while crossing a large, densely populated city, there can be an unimaginable catastrophe.
im assuming it was made into law to not prevent any information from being available to first responders entering into a hazard zone? like. going "i cannot give information" to the dispatchers not being permittable with a chemical leak at a chemical plant
Not so fun fact: 10 years later in 2014, MFG had another incident where maleic anhydride escaped from a chemical reactor and required an employee to be treated in the hospital for months before he died of heart failure. Another incident took place in 2012 where the reactor overheated AGAIN, exploded, blew a hole in the roof, and hospitalized 40 people.
Excellent educational channel! Do you have any content on anhydrous ammonia in railcars? I work near tracks which often carry tank cars containing this chemical. Facility emergency preparedness protocols seem incomplete given the risk should a leak occur. Thanks!
Look up bleve-Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion. Cooling the tank with water would have helped alot. With no water the tank is heating along with the liquid in the tank is decreasing. Which In the end will cause the bleve. Setting up ground monitors or a deck gun on the engines would have helped greatly.
These videos constantly tell me that big industry doesn't do diddly squat to check any of their systems until something catastrophic happens, and then the regulations bodies do diddly squat to drive home the need to do regular maintenance.
The pressure that had to take to rupture is crazy, I’ve shot a .50 cal rifle at a (empty) residential storage one, never managed to get more than a glancing deflection hit.
in a just world that Bayer employe being told he wasn't allowed to tell first responders what chemicals were involved in the incident would have resulted in the company being dissolved and it's assets liquidated with the proceeds distributed amongst the victims of their negligent communication policy.
Does anyone know what song it is that they play at the opening and on occasion throughout the video? I'm having all sorts of problems trying to track it down, and I really want to listen to the whole track.
They believed they would be protected by standing near the middle of the tank when it explodes? Wouldn't that be where most of the explosive pressure would be released?
Yeah I had a explosion and the fire department came they all got radiation sickness one thing had mushroom clouds coming out of my ears and snarl like a dragon is that the firemen were lied to they were told it was the turbine that blew not in my room (reactor hall)
The key words here are , recommendations, responsibility, ..... No one is taking anything seriously when the issue of a recommandation from any safety organisation remains a recommandation and not a compulsory order effective immediately, with hard jail penaltys for those that fail to do their jobs properly in this chain of command. ....No one accepts the final responsibility, but everyone allows the "system" to be vague and non critical in the responsabilités of these multi million dollar enterprises. Even the local and state governments fail to imply any real punishments and laws to assure that the people supposedly in place to fill these positions of responsibility are going to actually do their jobs.. From the local planning office's who decide it's fine to build houses next to an ink factory, or allow the town to expand and surround a site where dangerous chemicals or other dangers are situated. The government officials that turn the other way rather than do their job properly, taking back hander's or other benefits rather than say NO, you must relocate the factory 40 miles out of the area, to create a safe zone...There is no solid enforcement to assure that the correct competent up to date people are in place and have the power to enforce new réglementations on a day to day basis... Companies should have to request permission to manufacture new products or to change manufacturing procedures. They should have inspections by experts who can stipulate compulsory changes or modifications that need to be setup before production can commence. and these enforced changes have to be checked, double checked and tested, and all the relative training of company and emergency personnel must be trained to deal with any possible eventual dangers relative to this new change..before it can be started up in production. I have seen first hand where attitudes and ignorance reign over intelligence and competence. Idiots that allow a chemical plant producing super oxidizers are built directly over a gas pipeline..or that allow storage of combustibles with oxidizers. or installations that have faulty or missing safety equipment that has been the attention of a safety inspection and gets a letter listing recommendations by the safety board and is allowed to carry on regardless..I spent 12 years in the chemical transport industry and have have held ADR licences for hazchem so I do have experience, and sadly have had to report companies back to the safety organisation that were supposed to have rechecked "recommandations" for implementation and have failed to do so. Even special training sessions following the death of a co worker where a "specialist" told us that we should wear a gas mask in the presence of a saturated gas environment !! who didn't know the difference between intoxication by a solvent and asphyxiation through lack of oxygen. I called him a MORON in front of the whole assembly of staff and managers, and told him of his stupid misinformation that would allow another driver to die following his guidelines !!! Who trains these idiots and who should be there to oversee their actions and be responsible !! sadly no one !...
The "not allowed to give information" sounds like their attorneys were the first people they rang when the fire began . Its not public safety emergency , its a possible public liability incident .
I am a first responder as well as those who continue to save lives and property."im only able to say we have a release.???" Really ? I hope all people stay far away from that guy should an emergency arise!
How do you not leave a leaking propane tank to me it seems like common knowledge that lonely people in the store that smell of rotten eggs is your cue to get the F out
SO from what i gather, The USCSB basically only investigates and writes a report then, most of the time, nothing is done. Why does the organisation exists if it has absolutely no legal autority?? I mean, recommendations aren't worth anything if they are just that, recommendations, they need to be laws, norms, consequences, anything else than only a report and recommendations.
I've been the victim of a bleve. Evacuated glass bottles coming out of a autoclave. Blown up when I pulled the cart out by hand and wearing a face shield that didn't cover my neck (one of the good ones to) and grab it heat gloves. Have a large scar on my neck where glass was removed from the inside of my neck. I was lucky by a inch. Still a bleve just a smaller one 😁
I wonder what Anarcho-Capitalists think when viewing this video? Is it the will of the great industrialist ubermench extracting as much profit as possible regardless of the risk against the incompetent bureaucrats of the CSB?
Even after having stumbled upon this video multiple times I just do not get how the people working in the store at 4:40 did not just leave. I hope I am correct to believe myself smart enough to not hang out in a air-fuel bomb.
Spraying the tank with water would have been worse because uneven metal contractions would have caused it to explode even sooner and men would have been closer. As for the rest, well they had good intentions.
@@bigmac92 - for a mask to work , it must make a good seal to the skin , beards prevent this seal ( = leakage gas / contaminated air bypasses the filters) ... as the bearded Iranian soldiers had to expirience (preventable very bad health damage & deaths) when Saddam Hussain used toxic gas against them ... also OMG @ 10:22 a woman wears a usless P1 dust mask (for big particles only)
Bayer: "I need you to notify the community that there is any emergency at our chemical plant." Dispatcher: "Okay, what is the nature of the emergency?" Bayer: "I can't tell you." My dude you are on the phone with 911, why did you call if you're not going to tell them anything? How do you expect the community to be notified or the situation to be addressed if you don't tell anyone what the problem is?
I'm an emergency manager and if Bayer or anyone else tried to pull that "I can't tell you" crap, my response would absolutely be "I can't send my responders into a situation without that info. So until you can tell me what we're dealing with, we'll be focusing on evacuation efforts in the nearby neighborhoods." There's no way I'm asking my first responders to risk their lives by going into an unknown situation because some Corp wants to cover their ass.
Exactly it's so infuriating
Yes. And as far as I'm concerned, my response would be the absolute worst possible thing happened. Shelter in place? HELL NO! Evacuations until it is proven unnecessary.
CropScience... more like CorpScience, protecting the Corporation.
You are talking to firefighters and other first responders, they need to know what they are up against.
Yeah that was criminal. That person should be moved to a less hazardous line of work. I wonder if it's possible for an intrepid reporter to follow up?
Makes me wish it was legal and possible to pull a gun and ask "is it worth taking to your grave?"
Any company like Bayer that treats an emergency like they did should be closed down and liquidated immediately.
Bs... I need aspirin
Bayer developed Heroin [the trade name for the synthetic opioid now used like the name Kleenex is for stuff to blow your nose on], and used Auschwitz as their testing ground for drugs by intentionally giving prisoners typhus, malaria, and other diseases to test their medication. Acetylsalicylic acid is available from many many companies that don't owe their fortune to piggybacking on genocide to do pharmaceutical research. F**k Bayer.
@@kdawson020279 unfortunately no big surprise
Werner von Braun led the US space program
Operation Paperclip
it's a small world after all..
@@walterbrunswick Look at how many war criminals escaped to Argentina that should have been put under the jail at Nuremberg. There's plausible speculation that Hitler was not the body in the bunker. Not proof, just potential. Germany had a great industrial community and the beloved VW Beetle is a symbol of Dr. Porsche's commitment to the party. As a Euro car guy I own the modern Beetle and an '81 Rabbit. People will seek advantages whenever available and defectors were easy to come by after WWII and during the Cold War. Some had more blood on their hands than others.
Same with the govt covid response and xlot shots
As a firefighter, we had a lot of tractor trailer accidents on a section of road. We would call the police “coptometers” because no matter what the truck was carrying the cops would just head right for the truck. So we figured if the cops were laying on the ground when we got there, it’s hazardous, if not then we were good.
So a cop in the coalmine?
@@gorillaau bingo.
These videos should be mandatory view for all emergency services to learn what can happen with certain emergencies
im finding them extremely useful and informative and i dont currently work in the chemical industry
8:00 The people working in that fog of chlorine should have statues erected for them in the town those are true heroes
No they were stupid.
Why have I watched every single USCSB video in the past week? These are so well done and so informative!!! Thank you for all your hard work, USCSB!
Better than any Netflix series and something we can actually learn from.
its designed to be enjoyable i think
to ensure people can actually understand and watch/learn; though it comes at a byproduct of being good binge material, alot can be learnt due to how its formatted
basically: its good content, its bingable as byproduct - bingability means you can watch all of them one after another and enjoy
You think you’ve watched them all
@@thethinker8723 lol there's an endless supply
Yes everyone can learn something about saftey from these.
"We have an emergency at Bayer CropScience plant and the only information I'll give you is that you need... and you might wanna... alert the community... as my supervisor told me to inform you to do. Alert the community that there is an emergency at the plant." Wanting help, but not wanting to tell what happened.
Read: "We have/did/didn't do, something illegal/something we were supposed to do."
@@simpsonfan13 :-D
bialasova do you have a boss
Steve from Main Gate didn't know what was going on. Supervisors never tell you anything.
honestly in the future places that dont tell should be taped off with no entry for fire fighters until they tell them what is there.
"Do you know what happened at the plant?"
"Well, uh, I can't say anything until legal clears it, or I could get fired."
Or the time limit on theNDA expires
Bruh you about to BE on fire
You gonna wait till the time limit on your nda is up? What about the time limit on your LIFESPAN
That person needs to work in a less hazardous industry.
Don’t know about West Virginia State Police, but if you told OHSP or PSP that you refuse to release details about a hazmat incident, never mind that the building has exploded, you will be very quickly arrested with numerous charges, including impeding emergency response, and obstructing criminal investigation.
@@CircsCit's not the person, it's the company.
Although the person should have just done the right thing and answered the questions, any attempt at a lawsuit with a jury would have been in their favor.
The Bayer incident still drives me nuts... such poor communication principles... not saying anything even to first responders 🤦♀️
"I'm not allowed to give any more information"?...what the hell...! Yeah, that really helped. They think that info is classified or what? They are firefighters, not the CIA...
They're trying to cover the company from lawsuits and criminal charges. They don't want to say something on a 911 tape for the record. It's sick, I know.
This is why at-will employment is bad
@@TomNovak2113 It's likely they'd've been fired if they gave out information. Because some companies legitimately do that. Someone was even fired recently from a Safeway for reporting rats, expired food products, under-the-table dealings, mold, and a homeless man living in the store's attic and shitting on the floor. Very few (if any) employees cover for their employer willingly. It's usually coercion and extortion. The fact that one employer manufacturing a few lies about you can destroy your future is beyond infuriating. The working class in America lives under the thumb of employers, with zero power and leverage on our side unless we unionize (which is difficult despite protections for unionizing workers, because employers also implement 'legal' union-busting tactics).
Bayer...
well it’s probably so the don’t give wrong information
Damn the animator knows how to make it look good.
ACXD ATTX 2009 my guy..
You should check out their latest videos starting with the Wisconsin asphalt disaster posted a month ago. Absolutely unreal! The graphics are literally like 5x more realistic, to the point where some shots are indistinguishable from live TV news coverage.
"Two teenagers who were joyriding on an ATV struck a propane pipeline"
i think your first problem was not installing a goddamn fence around your propane tank
That's the thing
They shouldn't have been on the property in the first place
And putting a fence around the TANK wouldn't have stopped them from hitting the propane lines anyway
@@PartyhatRS so what your saying is that if some teens got onto your property and burned the gas cans you had in your shed then you should be the one at fault then?
@@PartyhatRS
YES, they were trespassing
YES, the Tank AND Pipes should have been plainly marked and visible
YES, the Tank AND Pipes should have been reasonably protected.
No ONE thing is 100% responsible.
The kids caused it.. 'Accidentally', but they DID! Did they TELL ANYONE?? (Not that it would've helped)
The lack of markings, signs, fencing, etc, was clearly the owner/operator.
That just strikes me as common-sense!
Just because it may not be written in the law, regulations, 'best-practices' handbook, etc doesn't mean it's not just a common-sense good idea!!!
@@GMan-yv8cb I don't have any weird chemicals stored on my farm. But, you know what? I strictly control who has access to the farm. It doesn't matter...if I'm not there, you ain't getting in! I MUST be present with you. And I'm NOT going to say "yeah, just go ahead and wander around wherever you want". You don't even need exotic chemicals around for it to be a dangerous area.
@@NiceMuslimLady
I totally agree with you.
I guess I was just pointing out that important or dangerous situations SHOULD be identified and marked.
From a business perspective, it probably would've much cheaper to just mark it - IN ADDITION to restricting access !
I think back to my many years on this Earth, and there were times that even being 'authorized' or 'escorted',, knowing where hazards were helped me reach tomorrow!
As I said, the kids caused the incident! They should be held accountable! But, if they were able to avoid the pipe in the first place, the whole situation would've been avoided.
I think I'm officially a CSB agent with binge watching.... I also slept at a Holiday Inn last night🤣😂
Wooo! Holiday Inn!! Yeah! ✋
Ik I can’t stop watching these. I think it’s cuz I just got a job going around all these different plants in the greater Houston area.
Right!!! It’s so fascinating.
Haha. Now I don't feel like such a nerd. (watched every Forensics Files)
@@Gkuljian I think we could be a CDB Team😁 I live near a cement processing/fabrication of those big pipes. Oooeee..haha this is me👀 at those trucks, towers etc.☺️
Sun Tzu wrote that minds can change, plans can change, actions can change, but the dead cannot be changed.
Dude wise words to live by
As Process Safety & OH&S trainer and consultant, I always appreciate CSB Investigations, lesson learned and videos
Khalid Latif so you believe these lessons are applied across the board and wont happen again?
@@suzyrottencrotch5132 Never say won't happen again. As soon as you start saying that, people become complacent untill it happens again.
gorillaau Russia really doing a number on the Earth
@@suzyrottencrotch5132 You mean the USA and Biden administration. The war would be over if we stopped funding it.
5:20 Hank Hill could have prevented people from being killed in this propane emergency
Hank would never have allowed a new tech to do anything without supervision.
😂
One episode he told a kid not to handle the valve like that. Kaboom!
Yeah, let’s just stand here looking at it all afternoon. GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE!
It wouldn’t have happened on his watch. That’s for DANG sure.
Lol.
911: what’s your emergency
Bayer operator: it’s a surprise :)
911: What’s your emergency?
Bayer representative: Guess!
2:22 no sir The tragedy of this case is that they have the propane lines above ground to where people can hit them instead of having them buried 4 feet under the ground like they’re supposed to in my view signed Jr C.S.B ☠️
No the tragedy is some idiots are driving where they shouldn't and got two others killed
Love this channel. Very informative and interesting. I'm going into the medical field myself and it's always great to learn new things before filling out those college papers
That guy that withheld information from responders; “I’m not allowed to tell you, just that we have an emergency”; I hope his ass was charged in court!
I hope he was too. Shouldn't be just him though; I doubt he would've said that if it wasn't official company policy. The executives that came up with that should've been before a court, too.
Not him, but the manager who decided people weren't allowed to give out information
CSB, why aren't more managers criminally charged for these accidents? Like the Bayer managers? I bet this tactic might increase safety if there is a consequence for their negligence.
If I’m not mistaken, neither CSB nor NTSB can speculate on criminal liability, though the local law enforcement may use their reports against those involved. Though at the time, I’d say that charging Operations Director Helpful with interfering with emergency response and several other charges of similar intentions wouldn’t be at the top of the list, especially at the time.
@@jaysmith1408 I don't know about NTSB, but, I do know, CSB is strictly advisory. The thinking is that "if they don't have to be afraid of being prosecuted they'll be more forthcoming". I don't know if CSB investigations can even be used in any punitive proceedings. So, kind of like "we are giving you immunity". How forthcoming would YOU be if you thought "I could go to prison for the rest of my life if I admit to that mistake"?
US is a pioneer country and developed which already passed along the years by throughout several emergency situations and learned with property and life losses. Now you can imagine how is the size of the exposures on the countries such as Brazil, India, China where the economy started to grow on the last years and now they are facing the same problems and situations that already happened in US. The strengths is that we have much more access to the information such this video. Thank you CSB, excellent material!
However the US is hampered by a somewhat anarchist, anti-regulatory, attitude from (mainly) right-wing Republicans
@@ianmoseley9910 excactly.. Loads of greedy bosses along with dumb wannabee heroes handed some minor $$
USA in a nutshell... 🙈🙉😞💥
If you count USA as a respectable pioneer in any of these primitive managed industries, no wonder so many professionals are so clueless ...
“So like there’s an emergency at the plant. Chemical leak I guess”
“Ok where’s the problem? What chemicals? Any information”
“I can’t tell you”
“The fuck do you want me to do then?”
Safety always. If you have chemicals in your workspace the manager needs to know what chemicals are stored and used at workplace. And what to do if theirs an emergency.
Perhaps he knew but was too busy covering his, and the company, reputation and legal interests. If this was the case for this emergency, stop doing that! Emergency responders neee to know what they are dealing with. The local community will probably find out later, whether you tell responders or not!
Can someone explain to me why these chemical companys are not required to have their own crews to deal with hazmat emergencies? Its insulting to volunteer first responders to have the csb claim that they should be more informed of the hazards in their communities when this video shows the operators of these processes providing vague at best information of the chemical released.
That's the problem when law changes from state to state and even from community to community. It should be a no brainer that the authorities should be informed about any hazards in their community and they should know how to deal with them. That of course implies they were are handed such information beforehand!
Because these companies are required to never let their plants blow up. Now ask yourself how well that requirement does when the company is so negligent in the first place. 99% of companies run continuously 24/7 without much issue. These are freak cases. And in these freak cases where the management didnt care enough to prevent it, they are certainly not going to care enough to spend so much money training a crew.
Re the propane tank fire: have zero training and even i know being that close to a burning BOMB, essentially, is the wrong idea. Is this a matter of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? Bravado? Masters of fire invincibility syndrome? Every emergency unit should have weekly hazard hours. Being fully informed of the wide array of hazards is the best prevention. This series is the answer. Should be mandatory watch.
Generally their training was correct. A standard propane take explosion WOULD blow at the weakest points (the ends) but it was an unknown chemical process that lead to the more general explosion.
This is why Consultation is a must, including with the local community, emergency services, and experts in the field.
one of the most educational videos on youtube. thanks for the tremendous contribution and experience behind these investigations.
Well, "lack of training" is one thing. But not standing close to a burning propane tank should also be something people can figure out themselves...
Oh look! There's a propane tank on fire. Let's stand near it where it is warm on this cold night! What could POSSIBLY go wrong?????
I dunno about you, but I find it a bit amusing that they put [Sound of explosion] in the closed captions.
Fire fighters have a very strong instinct that compels them to stay and deal with any hazard and ignore the possible consequences. They need someone in higher authority to see the hazard for what it really is and directly order them away from the hazardous area, otherwise they will stay in the blast zone thinking they can stop it.
Thank you very much for these.
Using this one in particular for my Fire and Emergency responding training class
I said it before and I'll say it again. Regardless of all the IOS that people use, Sirens and audible public alerting systems are a damn good idea. Redundant systems need to be in place.
That cloud of chlorine gas gives me PTSD. I got a face full of it and couldn't smell anything for days. Nasty stuff.
It feels like a blowtorch in your nose
"I can't give you any other information other than it's an emergency"
"OK sorry I can't send any help until you tell what situation we're dealing with"
I wonder how those kids in the beginning feel now?
Ensign MJS the pipes would have been virtually invisible at night. They should have been buried underground, or at least marked with reflectors and illuminated. BLEVE training should also be absolutely basic for emergency responders. I’m a thirteen year old, and I know what a bleve is. Regardless, the loss of life was tragic.
@@samschannel531 What I would like to know: How did they get onto the property! If there wasn't a fence around it, why not? I don't know of anyplace that has dangerous goods that does NOT have a fence around it with gates that are kept closed.
RIP to those fire fighters. Idk who told them the tank would blow in a predictable direction. I've never seen that explanation.
From my understanding; in a "normal" pressure explosion, the weakest parts of the tank (the ends) would blow out at *extremely* high force, which is why they thought they'd be safe from the "sides". The physics gets really odd, but figured you'd at least want *some* explanation!
@@thePalindromeCrafter I see, I've seen explosions in the military. I know there is a predictable direction, but the shrapnel just seems like it goes anywhere. Know what I mean? I'd just let the damn thing blow or spray it from behind a barrier.
May be I'm thick in the head, but what I don't understand is why these large volume propane tanks are right out in the open without any blast barrier in case of an explosion.
Is there no local or federal legislation that takes into consideration the level of potential hazard.
I think big tanks should be treated like a bomb depot & surrounded with heavy earth-works of soil or be half dug in below the surrounding ground so any blast will be deflected up.
How many more need to be injured?
It may be to ensure that there is clear ventilation around the tank so in the event of a slow leak the vapor doesn't collect around the tank and lead to a fuel-air explosion.
Its probably a cost thing and its just not practical at most city service stations. They just dont have the room to build that kind of thing. Its a wonder no terrorists have tried to explode a propane tank or LPG tank. There is usually no security around them.
If this was the case then you would need berms all over the place since even the tank on a common BBQ setup could explode and cause deaths up to 500 Ft away. A BLEVE is not a common occurrence and preventable if an adequate water supply is available for cooling.
I'm kind of surprised there isn't a temperature or pressure activated release valve. If it's going to burn off, let it burn off vertically.
Ah you mean berms like the dirt hills lined behind open shooting ranges. At Kings Bay Navy base there is a "safe harbor" truck park with berms around it so that chemical haulers can be left safely unattended.
Like the soundtrack
very resident evilish
Mandrake Fernflower
A residental evil
There's a gas leak... STAY IN THE BUILDING!
Yeah jesus christ, it's almost comical. Next they'll say it was probably lit by someone sparking a cigarette next to the tank... like c'mon people.
@@ZRTMWA And who would want to breathe propane vapor how did the smell not get to them they put that smell in propane for a reason
"Huh, would you look at that? A propane leak. Inside the building, no less! Well, let's just stay inside this confined space. Let's at least put up a sign that says "STORE CLOSED DUE TO GAS LEAK". It's not like this store just got turned into a fucking bomb, right? Also, could you pass me my vape?"
Yeah. Well SOMEONE has to guard that leak so nobody just breaks in and steals it. Stupid stupid stupid.
Just their luck that lightning struck during the gas leak. 🙄🤦🏻♂️
I don't know why the fire fighters thought or were trained to believe the ends of the tank were the most likely to be dangerous. Elementary stress analysis shows that an over pressurised cylindrical container will always split longitudinally., that is along the side. I would not have been within 100 yards.
Donald Sayers like a hot dog
@@jamesmcarthur7553 Or any pipe that fails from over pressure or freezing.
I’m fascinated with infrastructure & industrial failures. Where I used to work those failures resulted mostly in lost product, downtime, and expensive repairs. Generally not life threatening safety situations, but occasionally someone got hurt or killed dealing with problems. And of course there was always a “cover your ass” policy in place so that when something did happen it was always the employees fault. It became evident to me that somewhere in the ownership or management chain there were decisions made that it was cheaper to accept these costs than to structure things so that they didn’t happen. When a potential problem was identified, objection raised, and suggestions made on a better way of doing things, there was always a cost benefit analysis done and from somewhere in the mucky-muck department came some version of the statement “that shouldn’t happen!”
Be it a plane crash (many of them at least), a bridge collapse, or a CSB type disaster it seems the one consistent factor that always shows up in the aftermath is our old friend “that shouldn’t happen”. It took me until my retirement years to learn this and I won’t be involved in anything going forward where I could make a difference. If I were to offer my 2 cents it would be this- when someone says “that shouldn’t happen” or even worse “that can’t happen” stop the presses and go back to square one.
I love how many of these videos involve volunteer firefighters
Iowa, ATV, explosion-sounds about right
holy shit that clorine leak footage was wild
Allowing the top of the boiler to get too hot always causes explosions, we've known this since the start of medium pressure steam engines in the 1700s. There is absolutely no reason why the firemen at the turkey farm would not have known to keep water on the tank itself.
They were only volunteer firefighters, it's possible that they didn't receive that kind of training.
@@able_archer01 If so, then they should at least get to watch CSB videos as a part of their training.
google exploding hot water tanks in homes. crazy that b4 T&P valves these things can launch 40 ft in the air....
First one was a Storage tank, not a boiler.
@@ianmoseley9910 In that situation it was a boiler and behaved like one.
not trained, or equipped - that is unexcusable. No wonder people question the capability of volunteer fire departments. I was paid for 20.5 years, now a volunteer chief for 13 (run a fire school in OR). Thank you the the CSB for these films.
Stick your fingers in your ears, and wait for the big boom, what kind of training is that?
Paul Reynolds I was at a paid Fire Dept. got certified as a Fireman in 2005 and to this day never saw this video before. It has nothing to do with the department being Volunteer or Paid, it has to do with the quality of the instructors and leaders of the departments.
I wonder if Tim Gablehouse has had to become extra competent in order to get people to listen to him despite his hair
Russell Moore ...I’m a barber. I’m going to start featuring that hairstyle in my shop. I’ll call it The Gablehouse!
It is virtually impossible to find the DVD request form mentioned at the end of this great video, what a shame.
piracy time. mp4 save the videos you want then burn to dvd or usb stick and insert into analog or digi tv
LOL. Look at the URL:
/null/null/null/null/null/NULL/NULL/NULL/NULL
I think they're trying to tell us something.
Im not sure they have all their videos on their website, whcih you can I thnk download for free. I dont have quicktime and most are on youtube anyways.
All of these are great examples of 'Cascading failure'
I think kids who want to work here they now know safety tips and I think this is good for them
We have a fire at our chemical plant.. What chemicals are involved... I'm not allowed to say... Sorry we are not allowed to get anywhere near it then.
that would be the way to stop that. if you dont tell us what is there, sorry your workers will die, and you will be responsible for their deaths.
Peter F.: If only the impact could be limited to the company’s employees... but of course that’s rarely the case especially when dealing with dangerous chemicals. Carrying that out would very likely lead to innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the company getting affected...
13:58 wowwww....I always think of shrapnel as small parts but nope.
That is insane.
I think any administrator that won’t tell emergency personel what chemicals are involved. Who endanger the communities should get the death penalty
A large railroad tank wagon with pressurized chlorine gas? Is that still allowed in the US after 9/11? If someone blows up or derails this tank wagon while crossing a large, densely populated city, there can be an unimaginable catastrophe.
im assuming it was made into law to not prevent any information from being available to first responders entering into a hazard zone?
like. going "i cannot give information" to the dispatchers not being permittable with a chemical leak at a chemical plant
Not so fun fact: 10 years later in 2014, MFG had another incident where maleic anhydride escaped from a chemical reactor and required an employee to be treated in the hospital for months before he died of heart failure. Another incident took place in 2012 where the reactor overheated AGAIN, exploded, blew a hole in the roof, and hospitalized 40 people.
Somehow, I'm not surprised.
I take it that not many people who die in propane explosions watch King of the Hill
Excellent educational channel!
Do you have any content on anhydrous ammonia in railcars?
I work near tracks which often carry tank cars containing this chemical.
Facility emergency preparedness protocols seem incomplete given the risk should a leak occur.
Thanks!
Just search for it on there channel.
The Hank Hill compilation episode.
Damn, 10 years ago was 2010...
Would it have helped to cool down the propane tank with water?
Look up bleve-Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion. Cooling the tank with water would have helped alot. With no water the tank is heating along with the liquid in the tank is decreasing. Which In the end will cause the bleve. Setting up ground monitors or a deck gun on the engines would have helped greatly.
Either way, no one should have been remotely close to the tank
These videos constantly tell me that big industry doesn't do diddly squat to check any of their systems until something catastrophic happens, and then the regulations bodies do diddly squat to drive home the need to do regular maintenance.
The pressure that had to take to rupture is crazy, I’ve shot a .50 cal rifle at a (empty) residential storage one, never managed to get more than a glancing deflection hit.
Fire Departments should be visiting each of these facilities as part of their training.
in a just world that Bayer employe being told he wasn't allowed to tell first responders what chemicals were involved in the incident would have resulted in the company being dissolved and it's assets liquidated with the proceeds distributed amongst the victims of their negligent communication policy.
Does anyone know what song it is that they play at the opening and on occasion throughout the video? I'm having all sorts of problems trying to track it down, and I really want to listen to the whole track.
I FOUND IT!
Highbrown - Darian Stavans
th-cam.com/video/qGbhGWEap-w/w-d-xo.html
How in the world can someone call themselves a fire department or even a fireman and not be trained (or know) what a BLEVE IS!
They believed they would be protected by standing near the middle of the tank when it explodes? Wouldn't that be where most of the explosive pressure would be released?
Always sad when firefighters die.
Yeah I had a explosion and the fire department came they all got radiation sickness one thing had mushroom clouds coming out of my ears and snarl like a dragon is that the firemen were lied to they were told it was the turbine that blew not in my room (reactor hall)
Anyone question what B yr was actually up to, why they couldn't say, why they were protected?
@11:13 The 911 operator takes the flammable chemical spill as seriously as a call about a lost cat.
Don't understand why the firefighters in the first incident didn't keep hoses on the tank to keep it cool.
Is it possible for plant managers to.let the fire service know what chemicals are stored at facilities
Yes, and they are legally obligated to do so. www.epa.gov/epcra/epcra-sections-311-312
We can only tell you that we have a leak
The key words here are , recommendations, responsibility, ..... No one is taking anything seriously when the issue of a recommandation from any safety organisation remains a recommandation and not a compulsory order effective immediately, with hard jail penaltys for those that fail to do their jobs properly in this chain of command. ....No one accepts the final responsibility, but everyone allows the "system" to be vague and non critical in the responsabilités of these multi million dollar enterprises. Even the local and state governments fail to imply any real punishments and laws to assure that the people supposedly in place to fill these positions of responsibility are going to actually do their jobs.. From the local planning office's who decide it's fine to build houses next to an ink factory, or allow the town to expand and surround a site where dangerous chemicals or other dangers are situated. The government officials that turn the other way rather than do their job properly, taking back hander's or other benefits rather than say NO, you must relocate the factory 40 miles out of the area, to create a safe zone...There is no solid enforcement to assure that the correct competent up to date people are in place and have the power to enforce new réglementations on a day to day basis... Companies should have to request permission to manufacture new products or to change manufacturing procedures. They should have inspections by experts who can stipulate compulsory changes or modifications that need to be setup before production can commence. and these enforced changes have to be checked, double checked and tested, and all the relative training of company and emergency personnel must be trained to deal with any possible eventual dangers relative to this new change..before it can be started up in production. I have seen first hand where attitudes and ignorance reign over intelligence and competence. Idiots that allow a chemical plant producing super oxidizers are built directly over a gas pipeline..or that allow storage of combustibles with oxidizers. or installations that have faulty or missing safety equipment that has been the attention of a safety inspection and gets a letter listing recommendations by the safety board and is allowed to carry on regardless..I spent 12 years in the chemical transport industry and have have held ADR licences for hazchem so I do have experience, and sadly have had to report companies back to the safety organisation that were supposed to have rechecked "recommandations" for implementation and have failed to do so.
Even special training sessions following the death of a co worker where a "specialist" told us that we should wear a gas mask in the presence of a saturated gas environment !! who didn't know the difference between intoxication by a solvent and asphyxiation through lack of oxygen. I called him a MORON in front of the whole assembly of staff and managers, and told him of his stupid misinformation that would allow another driver to die following his guidelines !!! Who trains these idiots and who should be there to oversee their actions and be responsible !! sadly no one !...
it costs a lot of money and lives when factories do not plan safety and the first thing companies do is file insurance claims right after the incedent
The "not allowed to give information" sounds like their attorneys were the first people they rang when the fire began . Its not public safety emergency , its a possible public liability incident .
I’m surprised that the first propane tank was able to burst. Usually you design a vessel to leak before it bursts. Perhaps it was over designed
I am a first responder as well as those who continue to save lives and property."im only able to say we have a release.???" Really ? I hope all people stay far away from that guy should an emergency arise!
Is Tim Gablehuas really Kurt Russel with makeup and wig ?
I love watching these with my friends
Can't they vent the burning tank remotely with a 50BMG?
To this day tim gablehouse has yet to shave his mullet
How do you not leave a leaking propane tank to me it seems like common knowledge that lonely people in the store that smell of rotten eggs is your cue to get the F out
What happened to the turkeys at the start?
Did they survive?
Probably roasted🍗🍖
SO from what i gather, The USCSB basically only investigates and writes a report then, most of the time, nothing is done. Why does the organisation exists if it has absolutely no legal autority?? I mean, recommendations aren't worth anything if they are just that, recommendations, they need to be laws, norms, consequences, anything else than only a report and recommendations.
How could they not realize the danger..... pressure
I've been the victim of a bleve. Evacuated glass bottles coming out of a autoclave. Blown up when I pulled the cart out by hand and wearing a face shield that didn't cover my neck (one of the good ones to) and grab it heat gloves. Have a large scar on my neck where glass was removed from the inside of my neck. I was lucky by a inch.
Still a bleve just a smaller one 😁
i thought is common sense to evacuate anywhere with server gas leaks, why did they stay there for 30 min
I wonder what Anarcho-Capitalists think when viewing this video? Is it the will of the great industrialist ubermench extracting as much profit as possible regardless of the risk against the incompetent bureaucrats of the CSB?
it's the blast wave that does the most damage
"Ink" wasn't on my list (or WAS it?) as a more formidable explosive out there...
Even after having stumbled upon this video multiple times I just do not get how the people working in the store at 4:40 did not just leave. I hope I am correct to believe myself smart enough to not hang out in a air-fuel bomb.
If the tanks only explode from the ends then they should make them with no ends
Did the propane make them all loopy?? How tf do they stay in the building for 30 minutes
Good idea, save the nearby turkey farm rather than prevent lives from being lost...
Turkeys are not alive? I never knew that...
bunch of turkeys
Spraying the tank with water would have been worse because uneven metal contractions would have caused it to explode even sooner and men would have been closer. As for the rest, well they had good intentions.
i can't believe they thought that pressure vessel would only blow it's ends out in catastrophic failure...
some examples show why you should own gas detector , a gas mask (with suitable filter) & *shave* at least once a day
Why shave?
@@bigmac92 -
for a mask to work , it must make a good seal to the skin , beards prevent this seal ( = leakage gas / contaminated air bypasses the filters) ... as the bearded Iranian soldiers had to expirience (preventable very bad health damage & deaths) when Saddam Hussain used toxic gas against them ...
also OMG @ 10:22 a woman wears a usless P1 dust mask (for big particles only)
Bayer: "I need you to notify the community that there is any emergency at our chemical plant."
Dispatcher: "Okay, what is the nature of the emergency?"
Bayer: "I can't tell you."
My dude you are on the phone with 911, why did you call if you're not going to tell them anything? How do you expect the community to be notified or the situation to be addressed if you don't tell anyone what the problem is?