7:32 Were you playing during the old crafting system of "Stability"? That's a PERFECT example of what you're discussing here. 90% Chance to craft felt awful to miss on.,
I wasn't, started in 0.9 iirc - but yeah that is basically what I'm saying. Not asking them to make the game easier, at all, just move some numbers around or something
Love your Frostclaw build/adaptation. Didn't need optimized gear to get 100-200 corruption. I'm a casual and appreciate a build that doesn't have severe downsides to be great. Minor adjustment to the risk calculation - Setting up the exalted item to slam with.
You could have the same effect by for example if instead of bricking the legendary item when you fuse it with an exalted. It could give you the option to accept if the event was satisfactory. And if it wasnt then you would get back your unique with its LP intact. To address with the potential of it being way to easy to get the exact affixes you want then you can add this process a chance of simply failing, killing the exalted and giving you back your unique without any of the affixes offered into the unique. Also RNG is largely used in ARPGs but i don´t think is rly as important as people think it is. I used to play a game were everytime you killed creatures you had a chance to increase a counter by +1 (20%+- per kill). when you reached 999 you would get the currency that was used to upgrade your gear. (if you died the counter would reset to 0, but the condition can be anything like not having your hp/ward drop below 20% or such). Also specific special enemies had guaranteed rare drops that equates to unique here, meaning that if you defeated a challenging enemy the game would reward you for your progression, and the item symbolized that you progressed as a player. Imagine the equivalent here would be telling the player "if you kill the shade of orbis in 2000 corruption you would get a 4LP guaranteed syphoon of anguish." how many people can kill a 2000 corruption shade of oribos? Would a system like this encourage you to push your limit and become a better player? Im not saying that a system like this would be better, maybe it is actually better to just gate it by having to kill 100 corruption shades 31250 times. But i know it has worked in other games. My theory of why RNG is so popular for developers is because it allow them to create systems that protect the player from realizing how inneficient/slow/bad they are at the game so if they gated progression behind competence it would drive most of them away because no one is born being good and knowledgeable but in a game like this only those who are willing to put in the effort will be rewarded. Instead devs place an imaginary carrot in a stick hoping players can blame their bad luck as the reasong why they haven´t succeded, if they were just lucky enough and had full 4 lp gear then they could push corruption higher than anyone else.
I feel like the first suggestion would be way too strong personally, I don't think "losing" the unique on failure is a problem, if anything it would be nice to have the option to recover the exalt as needing a new base for every slam forces us to keep many many many copies of good affixes on exalts.
last cycle i played 700hours. This cycle about 40. I leveled my warlock to 99 and I never found a helm with curse dmg. that was the " F U last epoch " moment for me.
At the very least I'd like to see a Rune that would reset the Legendary back to the original LP Unique, providing you as many chances as you have time and resources for. It would have to be a rare Rune so not to be abused, being something you'd only use in circumstances like this where the item is worth crafting another desired Exalted to slam into the item again (or try the same Exalted if you mirrored it beforehand). Obviously it'd suck to fail again but I feel it'd hurt less knowing that the outcome can be undone and you could eventually try again, at some point.
This is the solution I want. It makes the LP unique exciting, knowing that all you have to do is find a worthy exalt. If the slam misses, that's still good friction, and yet you can keep looking for another exalt to try again. That's the loop I want for this game.
A big part of the problem is that prefixes and suffixes are not equal in terms of value. For wands, you want to transfer mana, spell damage, crit chance/damage, not chance to ignite or even penetration. So maybe they could introduce a way to prioritize suffixes or prefixes when slamming a purple item onto a unique. Or maybe a few tries to reroll the slam, even using new exalt items is fine, or maybe redoing another dungeon to erase the added affixes. Also, would be nice to be able to add more than 1 legendary potential through Nemesis mechanic. But overall, legendary potential (and weaver) mechanics is just bad. It feels even worse than tempering and masterworking in Diablo 4. At least in D4 you get rerolls, and also don't spend time running Temporal sanctum. I got my first Wrongwarp about 60 hours into the season at level 98 (playing only sorcerer and having several stash tabs worth of wands), and of course it got only 1 legend potential, and of course I got the worst possible affix on it. I got my next two Wrongwarps shortly after that (probably has to do with higher corruption levels I am playing at), but I still wasn't lucky to transfer the affix I wanted (mana, ofc).
I had this exact scenario happen to me this season lol. I dropped a 3LP Monument of Protection and managed to miss exactly the exalted affix I wanted. I felt so deflated. You should be excited when rare gear drops, not dreading the likelihood of losing that cool thing immediately. Your suggestion has potential. (Heh) I also like the idea of just making an LP slam reversible. You lose the exalted item, but you keep the LP item. So even if you fail, you haven’t lost your once in a cycle event, you just need to go find another exalted item worth slamming to try again. That’s said, I’ve been somewhat wondering if the LP system as it is now is even still worth it. The idea was really cool: Let people have a path to upgrade and customize their characters while still having the base uniques accessible and interesting and also give lower level uniques a chance to make it into builds. In practice though, like you said, it feels like the goalposts shifted at some point and having at least a decent 1-2 LP slam on some items feels expected. Also, I’ve seen plenty of build guides now where someone is running some unique that doesn’t seem to have anything to do with their build, and the only reason turns out to be that it has decent stats on it and LP let’s you just turn that into a base for just a better exalted. The system is supposed to make interesting items more powerful, not just make exalted++. It also doesn’t help that Temporal Sanctum itself is pretty unfun/outdated content. There’s a core idea worth saving here, but I haven’t really felt good about the system after the initial excitement after its release wore off.
I made a forum post a year ago about EXACTLY this problem. In my case it was a 3lp aberrant call. I was crucified for it. The white knights came out with their pitchforks.
Thanks for your video! I agree with you the situation with LP does feels very bad atm. Because it's essential item to be even stronger, it's the end game everyone needed.
One of the worst thing in LE is exactly like you said. You've grind hours after hours after hours for a unique item. It finally dropped, but you don't feel that much happy like you do in other ARPG. Because you need it to drop with LP. And even if it dropped with LP. You need to grind for other Exalted items of the same type. And after you grind hours after hours for those Exalted items, you don't feel much happy either. Because you have to SLAM the desire affixes to the LP. And after you finally beat the RNG to get the perfect Legendary item, you don't feel much happy either, because you are already burnt out. And worst thing is: there is just no end game activities to use that perfect Legendary gear. The only end game activity is to run even more monoliths, which you already did thousands of times lol... Yes, grinding to find rare loot is the core game mechanics of any ARPG, but in the current state of LE, its just not good enough. LE has a really good base game (except for performance issue). I really hope EHG can fix all these problems in the following years so it can build up a sold playerbase like POE and others.
LE died for me when I got a great item, and I realized I couldn't equip it because to do so would mean I couldn't survive at the difficulty I was at because I wouldn't have the defenses any more. So I would need to farm new items to replace those defenses, grinding almost a new set of gear, none of which was useful until I got a fully balanced set, all to equip one amazingly good item. It turned the huge "OMG Yeah" into such a downer moment that I decided I never wanted to play the game again past completing the campaign and maybe doing the L50-90 echoes... maybe. I love the gameplay, but the expectation that the player will have a full set of gear for ever item drop eventuality and keep all that balanced it terrible. It's the only game in the last few years where I have done multi hour admin sessions trying to clean stuff up and figure out what is needed to progress and where gaps are without actually doing any combat, and then I realized it was a waste of time. Then you add the fact that if you are lucky, you won't be lucky enough to get a good roll on top of a good roll on top of a good roll which is needed to feel an item is hitting it's potential and not feed bad. As described here, and you just realize the end game of LE is just a feel bad exercise, and never a feel good exercise. There are too many fundamental design flaws in this game based on the concept of this being a "forever" game.
Damn lol having the exact same issue, just found an awesome item for my build but can't equip it without having to change my whole gear setup, feels kinda bad there are just too many defense layers I have to max. out.
Yeah this is one of my big issues with the game too. It reminds me a lot of playing WoW a long time ago at the point when gear could be adjusted by: Gems, Enchants, and whatever er that system was that let you swap one stat out for another. Plus you had to balance things like hit chance, block chance, expertise, haste breakpoints, crit, etc. (Although thankfully it wasn’t all of those at the same time usually. Whereas in ARPGs like LE you usually do have to cap all those different cap stats in a given build.) So you get a drop you’ve been waiting for from your raid night, but you can’t actually use it that night because you can’t stop the raid to go get it upgraded properly. But that was waiting just a night for something you know will happen. In LE/PoE you can potentially wait forever to find the right combination to make everything work and in the mean time you hoard all sorts of items to clutter your stash. This feeling is THE thing that stops me with continuing with some characters.
Yes, since all affixes are so random on the items in LE, getting just one new thing often leads to completely reworking your loadout (including idols and sometimes passive abilities). This might be fun at first, but gets really tedious as you do this over and over again. D4 might be casual, but at least you can easily improve your gear by replacing an item with a new one that has more of the same stats. And it feels good.
@@DenisKublitsky Hmmm I don't think diablo 4 item system would be the right solution to that, I personally find the loot and item system in diablo 4 kinda boring. Imo a big problem in LE is that you have to max. out so many different defense layers that changing and item will almost always leave you with a defense vulnerability and then you get one shot in mono's which is pretty annoying. Maybe adding one affix to the items could be a solution or reducing some of the defense layers (this could make the game maybe too easy though).
I think I got so much beaten up by path of exiles crating that I really dont think it is a problem for last epoch to make a bis gear like this, but I really agree with you, they could make use of the endgamebossesaybe to make LP usage better maybe(?) Never did the market stuff, but the CoF maxed is kinda easy to get stuff until 2 or 3 good affixes on gear IMO
I think there are some other games out there that could make use of this idea to great effect I think one other thing that LE could do with is a means to go "after X many chances, it's guaranteed" there are several ways this could be done. maybe the Temporal Sanctum builds up a bar every time you use it, and when that bar is full, you can pick and choose 1 LP stat. it can stack up to 3 times before you just stop gaining progress on the bar. (this number can go up should the max LP ever go up) could even make it so that higher difficulty runs of Temporal Sanctum give more progress on the bar, adding some risk-reward in there I have found that similar bad luck protection systems have worked out very well in some other games it removes the RNG after a certain number of runs, but you could get lucky and get the thing you want before that.
Bad luck protection could be an idea but I feel like it encourages players to try to game the system and juice up their bad luck protection before an important craft, think we probably want to avoid feels bad stuff like that imo.
I had the same problem with LE in the 1.1 cycle! My Torment Warlock build killed the 10 Harbingers but couldn't kill Aberroth since I didn't get any 2/3 LP Marina wands. Also took a ton of helmets to get my helmet close. So to be able to craft a wand I needed T4 Temporal and I just die. So I abandoned a l100 Torment Warlock because Aberroth was 1 shotting me in phase 1. So I started a Ballista Falconer instead and by level 92 it was the same story again so I just stopped playing LE. D4 S5 was more satisfying in term of drops and loot. So I would prefer RNG to be mucg kinder for my mental health. 😁
A version of your solution that would work within the current game is that the rule could be changed so that an item deposited into the vault would need at least 4 affixes, (and one exalted obviously), but that it would COUNT, but not be able to transfer, Sealed affixes. The main problem I could see with something like that is that it would be un-intuitive, especially for casual players, and it would look and feel like you're using an "incomplete" item, but having more optimal RNG. Reading the other comments here I can see that people have pretty polarized opinions. I agree that RNG on the loot grind feels good, and RNG on the crafting feels bad, although it's a tightrope walk to not make everyone able to just make BiS gear all the time, because then they would lose interest and stop playing (Not that that doesn't already happen frequently in modern, seasonal ARPGs). Finally something that is abundantly clear to me is that people are just plain bad at understanding probabilities. Our monkey brains just weren't designed for it. I know personally that anytime I have a percentage chance greater than 50%, and I don't get it every other time (even with crits) I feel like I didn't get what I expected. Logically I know that's not at all how it works, but it still feels bad to not get something you expect with a certain frequency. (Coming from someone who has played way too much X-com 2, and missed my fair share of 95% shots.)
Yea maybe, I think that would be a bit too OP though as despairs are a very common currency and it would be easy to select the exact one you want, idk though
@@FrozenSentinel That was just the initial thought I had while watching of how it could work within the game as it is right now, after more consideration I don't think it's a good idea. I like what others have suggested of having a way to "reset" or "undo" the fusion of a legendary and get back part of your invested resources if it absolutely bricks.
A key thing here is you can also do both: You can make the RNG rates better feeling AND mathematically better. Top-tier idealized gear doesn't need to be so rare that content creators who play the game as their 100% pure focus find a single item to be a "once per cycle" rarity, and it also doesn't need to be such a feel-bad loss-aversion situation when you do get there. Those can both be true at the same time. There's no need to remove RNG entirely, but you can improve it SIGNIFICANTLY on the top end while also slimming the curve and keeping the general feel very positive with a good sense of the gear chase.
Perhaps RNG rates could be better but I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole in this video as it's (IMO) a completely separate argument that would be a MUCH harder sell.
My Problem with the whole LP system is the following: Droprates for rare uniques with LP are somewhat balanced like rare ish uniques in for example POE are. The difference with LE is though, that, where POE only has one, it has 3 moments of luck. Where an item in POE just needs to drop with decent rolls, in LE you need the unique (1), the T7 (2) and need to hit the slam (3). Thus id argue that some things should be more accessable. I have no problem with missing slams entirely, but if i have to farm that one incredibly rare unique AGAIN in hopes of hitting good rolls+LP+the slam, demands for better droprates imho.
I think you make a good case here. I remember Mike from EHG saying on one of his dev streams that legendary slams could do with a change. If I remember correctly, his suggestion was about having the chance to "refund" some of the ingredients of the slam if the player doesn't like the result. Regardless of the details of his suggestion, it seems EHG are aware of the feels-bad moments from legendary slam and are open to changing this. One thing you missed out on is discussing how the proposed change may affect Merchant's Guild players. It may be a bit too reliable in producing godly items for people who can just buy the components. I can't say whether that would be good or bad. Lastly, the search for an appropriate exalted item to slam is a big part of the effort. The higher the LP, the longer you will look for the perfect exalted item. I'd argue that the extra time investment is a significant factor in why a "failed" slam feels bad (in addition to the effect of loss aversion). I hope EHG factor that into any changes they make.
The exalt thing was a huge part of what I was trying to address here, with more deterministic slams, but rarer LP / higher investment into the craft it means you need to make fewer exalts. Great point about MG though, yea. If we go with the new crafting mat option it could be extremely rare and maybe available to CoF through a very expensive prophecy.
There's where faction balance and a better implementation of "buffs" plays a big part, imagine having a faction rank(could be the last) maybe for a crafting faction that everyone can be a part of that makes slamming roll twice and choose the outcome that has rolled the T7 affix That way would be easier to get the exalted affix and people would have to grind the rank
Taking an inherent upgrade and turning it into something less than will always feel bad. POE has a much longer but methodical approach to crafting that if it's not corrupted, particuarly for fractured items, you can SCOUR IT and start over. There is no recovery of the base or the unique and EHG Mike said is a flaw with the current system in dev Q&A livestream two weeks ago. In Diablo 4 the same problem presents itself with tempering; you take an upgrade and through weighted outcomes (yes, they weighted the good results AGAINST the player) brick it. Their "solution" is allow you to essentially scour once and reset tempering. But only once per item. It's absolutely terrible design and one of the reasons I have quit both LE and D4. Both systems are not giving the player any kind of agency in progressing their character after investing the time to find the upgrades. Finding the upgrade base over and over to make it past the final step is not real character progression nor is it fun.
the problem is if the rng is in your favor it becomes a problem of when you innevitably fail so failing feels worse when the rng is out of your favor the entire script flips because its something that isnt consistently reliable ... so its when you win the problem is your going into things expecting to win
To add something, I really hate dropping a very rare 2-3LP item just to have bottom rolls (or a bad roll on the modifier that actually matters), so even if I slam the perfect modifiers, it ends up being as good as a well rolled 1LP legendary. Make runes of refinement work on unique items and make them waste forging potential so you cant endlessly spam them, so we can at least have the chance to fix that "one in a cycle" item.
Well, like you said, the real problem with the actual system, is not that there is a very low chance to complete the whole process of getting the complete item, but that the last step of the process is the most important one, because at this point you've invested already a lot in the item, and a failure would make you lose everything invested so far. So your solution is just a bandaid, garanteed succes on the last step, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem. Next it will be the ones bricking a 2LP craft who will complain. Or people will complain that it has made 3LP items too hard to get. But there is no easy fix to that, without completely changing how legendaries are crafted. And anyway, whatever you do, people will complain.
It's true. I don't think the solution is to just make items that are intended to be extremely rare and hard to get become something trivial though, but people do tend to have a lot of complaints about how it is now.
What I if the affix(es) that are transferred to the unique are predetermined and visible? You could have a 1LP item that says "transfer the first prefix" or a 2 LP item that says "transfer the second prefix and the first suffix". You'd still have to hunt for a 2 LP that transfers both prefixes and the perfect item to merge with it but you would know exactly what you are getting.
I wonder if it would be broken to remove the required number of affixes on the exalted item when using the eternal cache. This way if you do want to do a guaranteed 1 LP slam you would have to hit the rune of removal not removing the exalted affix enough times for it to be carried over. They could even manipulate the way exalted items drop to make open affix slots a little more rare to compensate.
Maybe, but I worry that this completely removes RNG from the slam itself and moves ALL OF IT to the crafting process. I feel like that devalues the eternal cache and encourages us to hoard even more exalts as many won't make it past the removals
I LOVED playing Last Epoch. But in season 2, the fucked up Forge Potential bullshit was just too much. Nearly everything I tried to do used MAX FP. Bricked so many items and said fuck it, never dong this again. If they make changes to it I would come back and play again. Defiantly not with the way the crafting system works now.
@@FrozenSentinel Not necessarily cost increases but the scrolls to have a chance to lower the fp cost of an increase rarely ever worked. Id burn the scroll and always cost full fp. Totally killed my enjoyment of the game.
It feel horrible because you only craft on exalted items. If white/blue/rare items were meaningful and you could craft them up to T6/7 you would have much more options. Itemization is very limited in Epoch after 1.0 power creep :(((
This cycle i found a perfect base to craft my 3LP dragonsong, i duplicated the base bought 2 3LP dragonsong with nice rolls, there wasn't 4LP ones on the market and i failed the most important affix 2 times and it felt like shit and that's not counting that i was playing MG failing some GG crafts in CoF must be uninstalling territory for me
What if they tweaked the system to where when you slam you get instances of the weapon based on the lp on it For example 3 lp slamming you’ll get 3 instances of the weapon with exalt modifiers where you can choose the one you want but still there could be the chance of you not hitting the affix you want on all 3 instances.
The rng in LE is absurd, finding a 2-3LP unique then slam it with good t7 can take like 100hrs if you just play on 300c and not using cheese strat to farm favor (CoF), then the rng when u actually slam it. I actually never slam a 2lp unique because 1_never found a good t7, 2_i prob never touch the game again if i miss the slam. A good rng system imo is a system let you progress regardless of your luck, you will hit the end goal anyway just being lucky mean you get there faster, rather than the current system that no way someone can reach that by normal mean.
I have 320 hours played usually focused on 1 main per season and ive never had a succesful 2 or 3 lp slam. Ill get the t7 usually but never the 2nd or 3rd affixes i want
When game bricked my 3lp null portent i just quit. This is really tiresome process to farm anything good. I get that this is arpg, but system is just punishing. In general LE has so much good foundations that just ruined by overall state of the game with it's bugs, instability, clunkiness and odd game design decisions. I wish game the best, but i don't see it succeed in next few years at all. Even D4 became much better than LE nowadays(i get that EHG not as big company, but they definitely not indie anymore since they got Tencent money). I came to thought that "being in the middle" played not well for LE, since game doesn't know which kind of auditory it want to please. EHG keep saying that they balancing and developing game around 300 corruption and at the same time by their own statistic 95% people doesn't engage with empowered monoliths at all and just dropping the game. So what a point of all this rng layers if only like 0.5% of the people actually engage with all this systems in the end. Idk, it's just tiresome to play LE. I just hope that EHG will end up succeed and get all things sorted, especially bugs that persists since alpha times(it took only 5 years to fix Erasing Strike, freaking basic VK skill no one was playing). Thanks for reading my little rant,
I wrote 100 times that the slam system should be changed or reworked, but people here were typin "no, the system is good" etc. Where are you now, plebs?
Honestly, I feel like these kinds of systems mostly just disrespect the player's time. You've played the game for how many hundreds of hours, you've finally found an item that drops roughly once per cycle, even even has good rolls too. And now you have to hunt for a slam and that's no small effort either. And what do you end up with? Some RNG that you cannot control. What's the point of that? What's the gain of letting the crafting be like that? As far as I can tell, it's really just a way of tricking the player into an extremely low probability event that takes forever to make work, forcing the player to grind and grind and grind some more. If the player could see the probability up front then they probably wouldn't start but of course that's not the case. But really, are most players going to do that? I'm not really a "live service" kind of guy, so maybe I'm just way different from the target audience. If so then that's fair. But I just don't see why the item lottery needs to be this punishing. If it's a matter of keeping rarity down then add more resource requirements but give the player more control and tone down the RNG. It's already hard enough to get the unique with a good roll and get the exalt. Having that final step of absolute "GFY" RNG nonsense is like when you've almost built your house of cards and then some jackass SOB runs up and knocks it over while screaming "HAHA!!" in your face. I believe Mike has said repeatedly that most players never actually get to this part of the endgame. Of those few that do get that far, I wonder how many will find joy and motivation from that last step turning all their effort into a complete waste? And how many will just use it as an excuse to do something else with their time?
I should clarify that I wasn't specifically farming a 3LP Wrongwarp, it wasn't something I planned on getting because I knew how unlikely it was even with how many hours I put in. The point I was trying to make, is that regardless of how hardcore or casual you are, you will eventually find something that is rare (to you), and be extremely excited by that drop, only for it to completely fail in the next step. I'm pretty resilient but many players do rage quit after this sort of thing because of how bad it feels when you are given that sense of "victory" only for it to be essentially taken away, I see it in my youtube comments and stream chat constantly. After a failed slam like the one I showed in this video, I would wager most players would have felt better if the item had never dropped at all, rather than having it drop and fail like that. The problem isn't that the RNG is too unforgiving, it's that the way the RNG is delivered makes people feel like they got baited.
@@FrozenSentinel EHG doesn't want to make a system where 3 LP is same as 4 LP. 3 LP has failure risks where 4 LP doesn't. Sometimes, you get the dream 3 LP and it just doesn't work out.
@@FrozenSentinel by making exalted affixes have higher likelihood of being slammed into the unique, your making 3 LP closer to 4 LP. I think they want 3 LP to be different from 4 LP. It is also balance for some items. I don't think they want mess around with probability of LP drops. They're already rare as is.
I already said it and i repeat, it's a gimmick from devs to keep players playing for hours trying to get what they want, actually they didn't deny it when i asked them on discord but rather dodged the question RNG in drops and then RNG on slams is *TRASH* I don't mind wasting days or weeks on grinding but not getting something guaranteed at the end is horrible and a waste of life That's why most people didn't come back for cycle 2 2
As mentioned in the video, I don't think RNG should be entirely removed from slams, but I do think there is an opportunity to insert some player agency in choosing when to invest a currency for a high value slam, or have some way to tilt the odds so that you can remove the worst outcome from the possibilities, and then still have RNG on the remaining outcomes, as an example.
COF problems xD. Imagine dropping 5500 unique wands .Ppl have 3 lp in first weeks in MG. The bad part of MG is that EGH have no clue how to stop duping and crash the market in 6 day.
i think it is fair game to lose out on a big slam. You just got unlucky. I think the problem is more that unique's in the game don't feel optional sources of power increase. they feel mandatory which is where POE orb made more sense. In a game where something feels mandatory, the frequency in being able to slam is important because player has to feel hope that they could land on big power-spike otherwise they don't see any purpose in continuing their build if the odds impractical. Unfortunately, the 3 LP is impractical rng that you got that got followed up by bad luck.
I never said missing the slam wasn't fair game, or even that it was unreasonable at all. I mentioned many times in the video on how I didn't think RNG was a bad thing. My point was that these extremely rare events (the pursuit of which are a big reason why people play these loot slot machine type games in the first place) provide a very polarizing experience in Last Epoch and how small tweaks could be made to improve the feel WITHOUT making the game easier, or making items overall more accessible.
This game's crafting system is a joke. Imagine getting items like the Red Ring, RV, or Orian's Eye with LP, which are already rare to find in one cycle. Then you go through the bs snake only for it to fail, forcing you to go back to grinding on mono. The rarest items in the game should at least have some kind of guarantee of getting an exalted slam.
Increasing slam chance and reducing drop rates is the worst way to do this. You literally just talked about how high success rates makes it feel worse when you miss, and then you add a bigger investment on top of it as well. It would be far better to increase drop rates and reduce slam chance. This way players will be more engaged as they get the chance at great items more frequently, and they will feel less dejected when it doesn't turn out correctly.
Your suggestion does not address the problem, it just kicks the can to different items as players adjust their expectations to items that were previously considered unrealistic, but still are "in practice" unrealistic because of the reduced slam chance. My suggestion vastly limits the extreme bad outcomes for 3LPs, by allowing players to guarantee the T7. For your suggestion, that "extremely rare once in a cycle drop" might end up being rarer than in my suggestion, but a player will still be just as frustrated when they fail it. Perhaps some combination of both. 3LPs remain rare, but you add the Rune suggested to allow players to modify their chances. Then boost 1 and 2 LPs but reduce success chances to reduce distribution of outcomes.
@@FrozenSentinel "Your suggestion does not address the problem, it just kicks the can to different items as players adjust their expectations to items that were previously considered unrealistic, but still are "in practice" unrealistic because of the reduced slam chance." This is the same for both suggestions. Your suggestions just makes it so the people who would get bad LP3 rolls now just don't get LP3 items instead. As long as the final chances stay the same it's always gonna be about shifting expectations. The problem is that your suggestion makes the experience worse for LP2 and LP1, while also generally making the game less fun to play as there's less interesting drops for everyone.
Why not provide some numbers for your suggestion. "They just don't get 3LP" it's literally a 1/3 difference in drops, basically nothing, except when they do get the drop the worst outcome is removed. You are saying slams should be less likely to succeed with higher drops. So for example, you double the 3LP on WW from 1 in 220 to 1 in 110, and halve the chance of hitting T7 from 75% to 37.5%? Is that your suggestion? Or are you suggesting we keep the 75% chance and just buff the drop chance, essentially just making item acquisition overall twice as easy. For the 1 / 2 LP, I disagree, on paper it is the same. Except you will craft fewer exalts to be thrown into the meat grinder. The drops are 33% less in exchange for 33% increase in T7 chance. My suggestion makes interesting drops more interesting, especially the new crafting mat suggestion as it gives more options to players.
@@FrozenSentinel The numbers doesn't really matter. I could say double the drop rates and half the slam chance, or increase drop rates by 15% and reduce slam by 13% (which would lead to the same overall chance), but it's not really what I'm talking about. If the goal is to make the RNG feel less bad, while still keeping the overall chance the same, increasing slam rates and reducing drop rates does the exact opposite of that. As already mentioned, you already explained how making slam rates too high makes the misses feel really bad, and decreasing the drop rates when they are already microscopically low makes that aspect of the game also feel worse. Making it so LP3s (and 2s for that matter) are more frequent and thus also feel less punishing when they slam poorly is exactly how you would make the process feel less bad. You could absolutely argue that making items rarer and thus more exciting when they drop could make the game more fun, but I wouldn't say that's really an issue with Last Epochs loot system atm.
You are way overthinking and way overcomplicating a very simple problem with a very simple solution. They need to create a currency that is however rare it needs to be that guarantees a mod. It's that simple. I don't play these games to play the lottery or a casino. The gamble does absolutely nothing for me.
I explained why I felt that was a bad idea, it provides a vastly different benefit to items of different LP levels. For items where 1LP is the max reasonable LP farmed, it is insane. Guaranteeing a T7 on a Red Ring for example, is significantly more powerful than a T7 on 2LP Blood of the Exile which still needs to roll for the other affix chosen. For 1LP it completely removes the RNG from the slam. For a 2LP it makes it a 1 in 3 instead of a 1 in 6 to get top 2 preferred affixes. For a 3LP it makes it a 1 in 3 instead of a 1 in 4 to get your top 3 preferred affixes. My suggestion of blocking an undesired affix provides a fairly consistent benefit regardless of the LP level.
I understand the point of the video but your suggestions are completely ridiculous. You are essentially asking them to completely devalue 4LP Uniques and make 3LP just as success efficient as a 4LP. That will never happen and should never happen. Both of your examples ask for this thus both your examples are completely pointless. What you should be asking for is a means to lower the rarity of the acquisition rate. (Diablo 4 just went through this with their Ancestral Gear) Where it was too rare to even be fun when only 1 person per season even got one. So they raised the drop rate to allow for more chances at rarity variants. Now 4LP Ancestral Pieces are still rare, but you get way more base drop chances. Last Epoch's issues though happen WELL before this RNG stuff even becomes an issue. Their entire Dungeon system and locking LP slamming behind T4 Julra gatekeeps 99% of their playerbase from even interacting with this system for rare high level uniques and the Dungeon is so unfun that no one wants to do it anyway. Essentially, there's bigger fish to fry with the game than solving 3LP slam rates.
it's not as success efficient at all... you still need to roll for the other affixes and you need to input a rare currency which itself has an RNG component to get that, and you end up with 1 fewer affix.
@@FrozenSentinel You are bypassing the point that it would devalue 4LP. It will never happen. And getting good exalts isn't that difficult you are making it sound like exalts are incredibly hard to farm when they are probably the easiest thanks Lightless Arbor and CoF. Or just go MG and buy whatever you need. The point is the Slam Success Efficiency is what you are arguing to change by making 3LP just as successful at 4LP - it won't happen.
"You're not going in to get lucky... You're just hoping that you don't get unlucky."
Missed my LP3 slam last week, have only played an hour since. It feels really demoralizing and literally stopped me from continuing this cycle.
7:32 Were you playing during the old crafting system of "Stability"? That's a PERFECT example of what you're discussing here. 90% Chance to craft felt awful to miss on.,
I wasn't, started in 0.9 iirc - but yeah that is basically what I'm saying. Not asking them to make the game easier, at all, just move some numbers around or something
Love your Frostclaw build/adaptation. Didn't need optimized gear to get 100-200 corruption. I'm a casual and appreciate a build that doesn't have severe downsides to be great. Minor adjustment to the risk calculation - Setting up the exalted item to slam with.
Imagine if we had a Rune of Remorse - and it can only be used on an item one time... Basically giving you two chances.
Thanks for helping the game become better.
this week i bricked 3lp gloves TWICE and felt awful, this definitively needs to improve.
oof that one hurts
You could have the same effect by for example if instead of bricking the legendary item when you fuse it with an exalted. It could give you the option to accept if the event was satisfactory. And if it wasnt then you would get back your unique with its LP intact. To address with the potential of it being way to easy to get the exact affixes you want then you can add this process a chance of simply failing, killing the exalted and giving you back your unique without any of the affixes offered into the unique.
Also RNG is largely used in ARPGs but i don´t think is rly as important as people think it is. I used to play a game were everytime you killed creatures you had a chance to increase a counter by +1 (20%+- per kill). when you reached 999 you would get the currency that was used to upgrade your gear. (if you died the counter would reset to 0, but the condition can be anything like not having your hp/ward drop below 20% or such). Also specific special enemies had guaranteed rare drops that equates to unique here, meaning that if you defeated a challenging enemy the game would reward you for your progression, and the item symbolized that you progressed as a player. Imagine the equivalent here would be telling the player "if you kill the shade of orbis in 2000 corruption you would get a 4LP guaranteed syphoon of anguish."
how many people can kill a 2000 corruption shade of oribos? Would a system like this encourage you to push your limit and become a better player? Im not saying that a system like this would be better, maybe it is actually better to just gate it by having to kill 100 corruption shades 31250 times. But i know it has worked in other games.
My theory of why RNG is so popular for developers is because it allow them to create systems that protect the player from realizing how inneficient/slow/bad they are at the game so if they gated progression behind competence it would drive most of them away because no one is born being good and knowledgeable but in a game like this only those who are willing to put in the effort will be rewarded. Instead devs place an imaginary carrot in a stick hoping players can blame their bad luck as the reasong why they haven´t succeded, if they were just lucky enough and had full 4 lp gear then they could push corruption higher than anyone else.
I feel like the first suggestion would be way too strong personally, I don't think "losing" the unique on failure is a problem, if anything it would be nice to have the option to recover the exalt as needing a new base for every slam forces us to keep many many many copies of good affixes on exalts.
Amazing video, really hope ehg takes a look at this
last cycle i played 700hours. This cycle about 40. I leveled my warlock to 99 and I never found a helm with curse dmg. that was the " F U last epoch " moment for me.
At the very least I'd like to see a Rune that would reset the Legendary back to the original LP Unique, providing you as many chances as you have time and resources for.
It would have to be a rare Rune so not to be abused, being something you'd only use in circumstances like this where the item is worth crafting another desired Exalted to slam into the item again (or try the same Exalted if you mirrored it beforehand).
Obviously it'd suck to fail again but I feel it'd hurt less knowing that the outcome can be undone and you could eventually try again, at some point.
This is the solution I want. It makes the LP unique exciting, knowing that all you have to do is find a worthy exalt. If the slam misses, that's still good friction, and yet you can keep looking for another exalt to try again. That's the loop I want for this game.
@@CPirc maybe even have a chance to remove 1lp or smthing to balance the "risk"
A big part of the problem is that prefixes and suffixes are not equal in terms of value. For wands, you want to transfer mana, spell damage, crit chance/damage, not chance to ignite or even penetration.
So maybe they could introduce a way to prioritize suffixes or prefixes when slamming a purple item onto a unique. Or maybe a few tries to reroll the slam, even using new exalt items is fine, or maybe redoing another dungeon to erase the added affixes. Also, would be nice to be able to add more than 1 legendary potential through Nemesis mechanic.
But overall, legendary potential (and weaver) mechanics is just bad. It feels even worse than tempering and masterworking in Diablo 4. At least in D4 you get rerolls, and also don't spend time running Temporal sanctum.
I got my first Wrongwarp about 60 hours into the season at level 98 (playing only sorcerer and having several stash tabs worth of wands), and of course it got only 1 legend potential, and of course I got the worst possible affix on it. I got my next two Wrongwarps shortly after that (probably has to do with higher corruption levels I am playing at), but I still wasn't lucky to transfer the affix I wanted (mana, ofc).
I had this exact scenario happen to me this season lol. I dropped a 3LP Monument of Protection and managed to miss exactly the exalted affix I wanted. I felt so deflated.
You should be excited when rare gear drops, not dreading the likelihood of losing that cool thing immediately.
Your suggestion has potential. (Heh)
I also like the idea of just making an LP slam reversible. You lose the exalted item, but you keep the LP item. So even if you fail, you haven’t lost your once in a cycle event, you just need to go find another exalted item worth slamming to try again.
That’s said, I’ve been somewhat wondering if the LP system as it is now is even still worth it. The idea was really cool: Let people have a path to upgrade and customize their characters while still having the base uniques accessible and interesting and also give lower level uniques a chance to make it into builds.
In practice though, like you said, it feels like the goalposts shifted at some point and having at least a decent 1-2 LP slam on some items feels expected. Also, I’ve seen plenty of build guides now where someone is running some unique that doesn’t seem to have anything to do with their build, and the only reason turns out to be that it has decent stats on it and LP let’s you just turn that into a base for just a better exalted. The system is supposed to make interesting items more powerful, not just make exalted++. It also doesn’t help that Temporal Sanctum itself is pretty unfun/outdated content.
There’s a core idea worth saving here, but I haven’t really felt good about the system after the initial excitement after its release wore off.
1lp = just random 25%, 2lp = guaranteed t6, 3lp = guaranteed t7, 4lp = guranteed upgrade +1 random tier up to t7.
I made a forum post a year ago about EXACTLY this problem. In my case it was a 3lp aberrant call. I was crucified for it. The white knights came out with their pitchforks.
Thanks for your video!
I agree with you the situation with LP does feels very bad atm.
Because it's essential item to be even stronger, it's the end game everyone needed.
I like the Rune of the Void solution. So long as it's a rare drop and not easy to come by.
One of the worst thing in LE is exactly like you said. You've grind hours after hours after hours for a unique item. It finally dropped, but you don't feel that much happy like you do in other ARPG. Because you need it to drop with LP. And even if it dropped with LP. You need to grind for other Exalted items of the same type. And after you grind hours after hours for those Exalted items, you don't feel much happy either. Because you have to SLAM the desire affixes to the LP. And after you finally beat the RNG to get the perfect Legendary item, you don't feel much happy either, because you are already burnt out.
And worst thing is: there is just no end game activities to use that perfect Legendary gear. The only end game activity is to run even more monoliths, which you already did thousands of times lol...
Yes, grinding to find rare loot is the core game mechanics of any ARPG, but in the current state of LE, its just not good enough. LE has a really good base game (except for performance issue). I really hope EHG can fix all these problems in the following years so it can build up a sold playerbase like POE and others.
I love this idea! Hope they implement it!
LE died for me when I got a great item, and I realized I couldn't equip it because to do so would mean I couldn't survive at the difficulty I was at because I wouldn't have the defenses any more. So I would need to farm new items to replace those defenses, grinding almost a new set of gear, none of which was useful until I got a fully balanced set, all to equip one amazingly good item. It turned the huge "OMG Yeah" into such a downer moment that I decided I never wanted to play the game again past completing the campaign and maybe doing the L50-90 echoes... maybe.
I love the gameplay, but the expectation that the player will have a full set of gear for ever item drop eventuality and keep all that balanced it terrible.
It's the only game in the last few years where I have done multi hour admin sessions trying to clean stuff up and figure out what is needed to progress and where gaps are without actually doing any combat, and then I realized it was a waste of time.
Then you add the fact that if you are lucky, you won't be lucky enough to get a good roll on top of a good roll on top of a good roll which is needed to feel an item is hitting it's potential and not feed bad. As described here, and you just realize the end game of LE is just a feel bad exercise, and never a feel good exercise.
There are too many fundamental design flaws in this game based on the concept of this being a "forever" game.
Damn lol having the exact same issue, just found an awesome item for my build but can't equip it without having to change my whole gear setup, feels kinda bad there are just too many defense layers I have to max. out.
Yeah this is one of my big issues with the game too. It reminds me a lot of playing WoW a long time ago at the point when gear could be adjusted by: Gems, Enchants, and whatever er that system was that let you swap one stat out for another. Plus you had to balance things like hit chance, block chance, expertise, haste breakpoints, crit, etc. (Although thankfully it wasn’t all of those at the same time usually. Whereas in ARPGs like LE you usually do have to cap all those different cap stats in a given build.)
So you get a drop you’ve been waiting for from your raid night, but you can’t actually use it that night because you can’t stop the raid to go get it upgraded properly. But that was waiting just a night for something you know will happen. In LE/PoE you can potentially wait forever to find the right combination to make everything work and in the mean time you hoard all sorts of items to clutter your stash.
This feeling is THE thing that stops me with continuing with some characters.
Yes, since all affixes are so random on the items in LE, getting just one new thing often leads to completely reworking your loadout (including idols and sometimes passive abilities). This might be fun at first, but gets really tedious as you do this over and over again.
D4 might be casual, but at least you can easily improve your gear by replacing an item with a new one that has more of the same stats. And it feels good.
@@DenisKublitsky Hmmm I don't think diablo 4 item system would be the right solution to that, I personally find the loot and item system in diablo 4 kinda boring. Imo a big problem in LE is that you have to max. out so many different defense layers that changing and item will almost always leave you with a defense vulnerability and then you get one shot in mono's which is pretty annoying. Maybe adding one affix to the items could be a solution or reducing some of the defense layers (this could make the game maybe too easy though).
Isn't this bormal behaviour though... In other ARPG's like POE and others you have exactly the same?
I don't fully follow you here I guess...
Finally got a Red ring drop last night
Used the nemesis egg and got (throwing damage / int)
My soul was crushed, spirit defeated.
oof, that's a rough one
This is SPOT on!
also very few people are upset with LP rng ... what they dont like is running the temple every time they wanna try to roll one
I think I got so much beaten up by path of exiles crating that I really dont think it is a problem for last epoch to make a bis gear like this, but I really agree with you, they could make use of the endgamebossesaybe to make LP usage better maybe(?) Never did the market stuff, but the CoF maxed is kinda easy to get stuff until 2 or 3 good affixes on gear IMO
I think there are some other games out there that could make use of this idea to great effect
I think one other thing that LE could do with is a means to go "after X many chances, it's guaranteed"
there are several ways this could be done. maybe the Temporal Sanctum builds up a bar every time you use it, and when that bar is full, you can pick and choose 1 LP stat.
it can stack up to 3 times before you just stop gaining progress on the bar. (this number can go up should the max LP ever go up)
could even make it so that higher difficulty runs of Temporal Sanctum give more progress on the bar, adding some risk-reward in there
I have found that similar bad luck protection systems have worked out very well in some other games
it removes the RNG after a certain number of runs, but you could get lucky and get the thing you want before that.
Bad luck protection could be an idea but I feel like it encourages players to try to game the system and juice up their bad luck protection before an important craft, think we probably want to avoid feels bad stuff like that imo.
I had the same problem with LE in the 1.1 cycle! My Torment Warlock build killed the 10 Harbingers but couldn't kill Aberroth since I didn't get any 2/3 LP Marina wands. Also took a ton of helmets to get my helmet close. So to be able to craft a wand I needed T4 Temporal and I just die. So I abandoned a l100 Torment Warlock because Aberroth was 1 shotting me in phase 1. So I started a Ballista Falconer instead and by level 92 it was the same story again so I just stopped playing LE. D4 S5 was more satisfying in term of drops and loot. So I would prefer RNG to be mucg kinder for my mental health. 😁
A version of your solution that would work within the current game is that the rule could be changed so that an item deposited into the vault would need at least 4 affixes, (and one exalted obviously), but that it would COUNT, but not be able to transfer, Sealed affixes. The main problem I could see with something like that is that it would be un-intuitive, especially for casual players, and it would look and feel like you're using an "incomplete" item, but having more optimal RNG.
Reading the other comments here I can see that people have pretty polarized opinions. I agree that RNG on the loot grind feels good, and RNG on the crafting feels bad, although it's a tightrope walk to not make everyone able to just make BiS gear all the time, because then they would lose interest and stop playing (Not that that doesn't already happen frequently in modern, seasonal ARPGs).
Finally something that is abundantly clear to me is that people are just plain bad at understanding probabilities. Our monkey brains just weren't designed for it. I know personally that anytime I have a percentage chance greater than 50%, and I don't get it every other time (even with crits) I feel like I didn't get what I expected. Logically I know that's not at all how it works, but it still feels bad to not get something you expect with a certain frequency. (Coming from someone who has played way too much X-com 2, and missed my fair share of 95% shots.)
Yea maybe, I think that would be a bit too OP though as despairs are a very common currency and it would be easy to select the exact one you want, idk though
@@FrozenSentinel That was just the initial thought I had while watching of how it could work within the game as it is right now, after more consideration I don't think it's a good idea. I like what others have suggested of having a way to "reset" or "undo" the fusion of a legendary and get back part of your invested resources if it absolutely bricks.
A key thing here is you can also do both: You can make the RNG rates better feeling AND mathematically better. Top-tier idealized gear doesn't need to be so rare that content creators who play the game as their 100% pure focus find a single item to be a "once per cycle" rarity, and it also doesn't need to be such a feel-bad loss-aversion situation when you do get there. Those can both be true at the same time. There's no need to remove RNG entirely, but you can improve it SIGNIFICANTLY on the top end while also slimming the curve and keeping the general feel very positive with a good sense of the gear chase.
Perhaps RNG rates could be better but I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole in this video as it's (IMO) a completely separate argument that would be a MUCH harder sell.
@@FrozenSentinel That's very fair! I figured bringing it up in the comments would be the right level of attention on it.
My Problem with the whole LP system is the following:
Droprates for rare uniques with LP are somewhat balanced like rare ish uniques in for example POE are. The difference with LE is though, that, where POE only has one, it has 3 moments of luck.
Where an item in POE just needs to drop with decent rolls, in LE you need the unique (1), the T7 (2) and need to hit the slam (3).
Thus id argue that some things should be more accessable. I have no problem with missing slams entirely, but if i have to farm that one incredibly rare unique AGAIN in hopes of hitting good rolls+LP+the slam, demands for better droprates imho.
I think you make a good case here. I remember Mike from EHG saying on one of his dev streams that legendary slams could do with a change. If I remember correctly, his suggestion was about having the chance to "refund" some of the ingredients of the slam if the player doesn't like the result. Regardless of the details of his suggestion, it seems EHG are aware of the feels-bad moments from legendary slam and are open to changing this.
One thing you missed out on is discussing how the proposed change may affect Merchant's Guild players. It may be a bit too reliable in producing godly items for people who can just buy the components. I can't say whether that would be good or bad.
Lastly, the search for an appropriate exalted item to slam is a big part of the effort. The higher the LP, the longer you will look for the perfect exalted item. I'd argue that the extra time investment is a significant factor in why a "failed" slam feels bad (in addition to the effect of loss aversion). I hope EHG factor that into any changes they make.
The exalt thing was a huge part of what I was trying to address here, with more deterministic slams, but rarer LP / higher investment into the craft it means you need to make fewer exalts.
Great point about MG though, yea.
If we go with the new crafting mat option it could be extremely rare and maybe available to CoF through a very expensive prophecy.
There's where faction balance and a better implementation of "buffs" plays a big part, imagine having a faction rank(could be the last) maybe for a crafting faction that everyone can be a part of that makes slamming roll twice and choose the outcome that has rolled the T7 affix
That way would be easier to get the exalted affix and people would have to grind the rank
As for the MG part as MG you'll still have to drop the LP item which is still hard
This cycle I also failed to hit a T7 on a 3LP item, FIVE TIMES IN A ROW. After that the dupe happened and I never finished the project. NICE
Taking an inherent upgrade and turning it into something less than will always feel bad. POE has a much longer but methodical approach to crafting that if it's not corrupted, particuarly for fractured items, you can SCOUR IT and start over.
There is no recovery of the base or the unique and EHG Mike said is a flaw with the current system in dev Q&A livestream two weeks ago. In Diablo 4 the same problem presents itself with tempering; you take an upgrade and through weighted outcomes (yes, they weighted the good results AGAINST the player) brick it. Their "solution" is allow you to essentially scour once and reset tempering. But only once per item.
It's absolutely terrible design and one of the reasons I have quit both LE and D4. Both systems are not giving the player any kind of agency in progressing their character after investing the time to find the upgrades. Finding the upgrade base over and over to make it past the final step is not real character progression nor is it fun.
the problem is if the rng is in your favor it becomes a problem of when you innevitably fail so failing feels worse
when the rng is out of your favor the entire script flips because its something that isnt consistently reliable ... so its when you win
the problem is your going into things expecting to win
welp you mentioned it kek
Thank you. As a CoF only player it is hard enough to get a 2lp item to then hope I don't brick it. It is not enjoyable in the least.
To add something, I really hate dropping a very rare 2-3LP item just to have bottom rolls (or a bad roll on the modifier that actually matters), so even if I slam the perfect modifiers, it ends up being as good as a well rolled 1LP legendary.
Make runes of refinement work on unique items and make them waste forging potential so you cant endlessly spam them, so we can at least have the chance to fix that "one in a cycle" item.
A dungeon that has an "eternal cache like" mechanic at the end which rerolls the values of a unique maybe.
or situation where the item is just shit without the roll, like nihilis or worldsplitter with 0.3% roll, completely unusable
Well, like you said, the real problem with the actual system, is not that there is a very low chance to complete the whole process of getting the complete item, but that the last step of the process is the most important one, because at this point you've invested already a lot in the item, and a failure would make you lose everything invested so far.
So your solution is just a bandaid, garanteed succes on the last step, but doesn't fix the fundamental problem. Next it will be the ones bricking a 2LP craft who will complain. Or people will complain that it has made 3LP items too hard to get.
But there is no easy fix to that, without completely changing how legendaries are crafted. And anyway, whatever you do, people will complain.
It's true. I don't think the solution is to just make items that are intended to be extremely rare and hard to get become something trivial though, but people do tend to have a lot of complaints about how it is now.
What I if the affix(es) that are transferred to the unique are predetermined and visible? You could have a 1LP item that says "transfer the first prefix" or a 2 LP item that says "transfer the second prefix and the first suffix". You'd still have to hunt for a 2 LP that transfers both prefixes and the perfect item to merge with it but you would know exactly what you are getting.
I wonder if it would be broken to remove the required number of affixes on the exalted item when using the eternal cache. This way if you do want to do a guaranteed 1 LP slam you would have to hit the rune of removal not removing the exalted affix enough times for it to be carried over. They could even manipulate the way exalted items drop to make open affix slots a little more rare to compensate.
Maybe, but I worry that this completely removes RNG from the slam itself and moves ALL OF IT to the crafting process. I feel like that devalues the eternal cache and encourages us to hoard even more exalts as many won't make it past the removals
I LOVED playing Last Epoch. But in season 2, the fucked up Forge Potential bullshit was just too much. Nearly everything I tried to do used MAX FP. Bricked so many items and said fuck it, never dong this again. If they make changes to it I would come back and play again. Defiantly not with the way the crafting system works now.
Did they change FP in season 2? I wasn't aware of cost increases
@@FrozenSentinel they didnt. sounds like he just had an unlucky streak
@@FrozenSentinel Not necessarily cost increases but the scrolls to have a chance to lower the fp cost of an increase rarely ever worked. Id burn the scroll and always cost full fp. Totally killed my enjoyment of the game.
It feel horrible because you only craft on exalted items. If white/blue/rare items were meaningful and you could craft them up to T6/7 you would have much more options. Itemization is very limited in Epoch after 1.0 power creep :(((
This cycle i found a perfect base to craft my 3LP dragonsong, i duplicated the base bought 2 3LP dragonsong with nice rolls, there wasn't 4LP ones on the market and i failed the most important affix 2 times and it felt like shit and that's not counting that i was playing MG failing some GG crafts in CoF must be uninstalling territory for me
What if they tweaked the system to where when you slam you get instances of the weapon based on the lp on it
For example 3 lp slamming you’ll get 3 instances of the weapon with exalt modifiers where you can choose the one you want but still there could be the chance of you not hitting the affix you want on all 3 instances.
The rng in LE is absurd, finding a 2-3LP unique then slam it with good t7 can take like 100hrs if you just play on 300c and not using cheese strat to farm favor (CoF), then the rng when u actually slam it. I actually never slam a 2lp unique because 1_never found a good t7, 2_i prob never touch the game again if i miss the slam.
A good rng system imo is a system let you progress regardless of your luck, you will hit the end goal anyway just being lucky mean you get there faster, rather than the current system that no way someone can reach that by normal mean.
EHG should watch this. Mail it to them.
I have 320 hours played usually focused on 1 main per season and ive never had a succesful 2 or 3 lp slam. Ill get the t7 usually but never the 2nd or 3rd affixes i want
Id try try and slam an exalt with only 3 affixs. Saying that the whole process of lp + exalt + temporal gets boring.
YES THANK YOU
When game bricked my 3lp null portent i just quit. This is really tiresome process to farm anything good. I get that this is arpg, but system is just punishing.
In general LE has so much good foundations that just ruined by overall state of the game with it's bugs, instability, clunkiness and odd game design decisions. I wish game the best, but i don't see it succeed in next few years at all. Even D4 became much better than LE nowadays(i get that EHG not as big company, but they definitely not indie anymore since they got Tencent money).
I came to thought that "being in the middle" played not well for LE, since game doesn't know which kind of auditory it want to please. EHG keep saying that they balancing and developing game around 300 corruption and at the same time by their own statistic 95% people doesn't engage with empowered monoliths at all and just dropping the game. So what a point of all this rng layers if only like 0.5% of the people actually engage with all this systems in the end. Idk, it's just tiresome to play LE.
I just hope that EHG will end up succeed and get all things sorted, especially bugs that persists since alpha times(it took only 5 years to fix Erasing Strike, freaking basic VK skill no one was playing). Thanks for reading my little rant,
With 1 lpa i seem to have good luck as soon as im rolling a 2 or 3 lp its damn near impossible to get what i want.
My cycle explained in a video
I wrote 100 times that the slam system should be changed or reworked, but people here were typin "no, the system is good" etc. Where are you now, plebs?
Yes Please
Honestly, I feel like these kinds of systems mostly just disrespect the player's time. You've played the game for how many hundreds of hours, you've finally found an item that drops roughly once per cycle, even even has good rolls too. And now you have to hunt for a slam and that's no small effort either.
And what do you end up with? Some RNG that you cannot control. What's the point of that? What's the gain of letting the crafting be like that? As far as I can tell, it's really just a way of tricking the player into an extremely low probability event that takes forever to make work, forcing the player to grind and grind and grind some more. If the player could see the probability up front then they probably wouldn't start but of course that's not the case.
But really, are most players going to do that? I'm not really a "live service" kind of guy, so maybe I'm just way different from the target audience. If so then that's fair. But I just don't see why the item lottery needs to be this punishing.
If it's a matter of keeping rarity down then add more resource requirements but give the player more control and tone down the RNG. It's already hard enough to get the unique with a good roll and get the exalt. Having that final step of absolute "GFY" RNG nonsense is like when you've almost built your house of cards and then some jackass SOB runs up and knocks it over while screaming "HAHA!!" in your face.
I believe Mike has said repeatedly that most players never actually get to this part of the endgame. Of those few that do get that far, I wonder how many will find joy and motivation from that last step turning all their effort into a complete waste? And how many will just use it as an excuse to do something else with their time?
I should clarify that I wasn't specifically farming a 3LP Wrongwarp, it wasn't something I planned on getting because I knew how unlikely it was even with how many hours I put in.
The point I was trying to make, is that regardless of how hardcore or casual you are, you will eventually find something that is rare (to you), and be extremely excited by that drop, only for it to completely fail in the next step.
I'm pretty resilient but many players do rage quit after this sort of thing because of how bad it feels when you are given that sense of "victory" only for it to be essentially taken away, I see it in my youtube comments and stream chat constantly.
After a failed slam like the one I showed in this video, I would wager most players would have felt better if the item had never dropped at all, rather than having it drop and fail like that.
The problem isn't that the RNG is too unforgiving, it's that the way the RNG is delivered makes people feel like they got baited.
@@FrozenSentinel EHG doesn't want to make a system where 3 LP is same as 4 LP. 3 LP has failure risks where 4 LP doesn't. Sometimes, you get the dream 3 LP and it just doesn't work out.
@@dodang_9147 No where in the video nor any of my replies did I claim 3LP should be the same as 4LP
@@FrozenSentinel by making exalted affixes have higher likelihood of being slammed into the unique, your making 3 LP closer to 4 LP. I think they want 3 LP to be different from 4 LP. It is also balance for some items. I don't think they want mess around with probability of LP drops. They're already rare as is.
I already said it and i repeat, it's a gimmick from devs to keep players playing for hours trying to get what they want, actually they didn't deny it when i asked them on discord but rather dodged the question
RNG in drops and then RNG on slams is *TRASH*
I don't mind wasting days or weeks on grinding but not getting something guaranteed at the end is horrible and a waste of life
That's why most people didn't come back for cycle 2 2
As mentioned in the video, I don't think RNG should be entirely removed from slams, but I do think there is an opportunity to insert some player agency in choosing when to invest a currency for a high value slam, or have some way to tilt the odds so that you can remove the worst outcome from the possibilities, and then still have RNG on the remaining outcomes, as an example.
COF problems xD. Imagine dropping 5500 unique wands .Ppl have 3 lp in first weeks in MG. The bad part of MG is that EGH have no clue how to stop duping and crash the market in 6 day.
ye no you did not just mention poe rng as better ... and expecially not the vaal orb out of all rng in poe
i think it is fair game to lose out on a big slam. You just got unlucky. I think the problem is more that unique's in the game don't feel optional sources of power increase. they feel mandatory which is where POE orb made more sense. In a game where something feels mandatory, the frequency in being able to slam is important because player has to feel hope that they could land on big power-spike otherwise they don't see any purpose in continuing their build if the odds impractical. Unfortunately, the 3 LP is impractical rng that you got that got followed up by bad luck.
I never said missing the slam wasn't fair game, or even that it was unreasonable at all. I mentioned many times in the video on how I didn't think RNG was a bad thing.
My point was that these extremely rare events (the pursuit of which are a big reason why people play these loot slot machine type games in the first place) provide a very polarizing experience in Last Epoch and how small tweaks could be made to improve the feel WITHOUT making the game easier, or making items overall more accessible.
This game's crafting system is a joke. Imagine getting items like the Red Ring, RV, or Orian's Eye with LP, which are already rare to find in one cycle. Then you go through the bs snake only for it to fail, forcing you to go back to grinding on mono. The rarest items in the game should at least have some kind of guarantee of getting an exalted slam.
Increasing slam chance and reducing drop rates is the worst way to do this. You literally just talked about how high success rates makes it feel worse when you miss, and then you add a bigger investment on top of it as well. It would be far better to increase drop rates and reduce slam chance. This way players will be more engaged as they get the chance at great items more frequently, and they will feel less dejected when it doesn't turn out correctly.
Your suggestion does not address the problem, it just kicks the can to different items as players adjust their expectations to items that were previously considered unrealistic, but still are "in practice" unrealistic because of the reduced slam chance.
My suggestion vastly limits the extreme bad outcomes for 3LPs, by allowing players to guarantee the T7.
For your suggestion, that "extremely rare once in a cycle drop" might end up being rarer than in my suggestion, but a player will still be just as frustrated when they fail it.
Perhaps some combination of both. 3LPs remain rare, but you add the Rune suggested to allow players to modify their chances. Then boost 1 and 2 LPs but reduce success chances to reduce distribution of outcomes.
@@FrozenSentinel "Your suggestion does not address the problem, it just kicks the can to different items as players adjust their expectations to items that were previously considered unrealistic, but still are "in practice" unrealistic because of the reduced slam chance."
This is the same for both suggestions. Your suggestions just makes it so the people who would get bad LP3 rolls now just don't get LP3 items instead. As long as the final chances stay the same it's always gonna be about shifting expectations.
The problem is that your suggestion makes the experience worse for LP2 and LP1, while also generally making the game less fun to play as there's less interesting drops for everyone.
Why not provide some numbers for your suggestion. "They just don't get 3LP" it's literally a 1/3 difference in drops, basically nothing, except when they do get the drop the worst outcome is removed.
You are saying slams should be less likely to succeed with higher drops. So for example, you double the 3LP on WW from 1 in 220 to 1 in 110, and halve the chance of hitting T7 from 75% to 37.5%? Is that your suggestion? Or are you suggesting we keep the 75% chance and just buff the drop chance, essentially just making item acquisition overall twice as easy.
For the 1 / 2 LP, I disagree, on paper it is the same. Except you will craft fewer exalts to be thrown into the meat grinder.
The drops are 33% less in exchange for 33% increase in T7 chance.
My suggestion makes interesting drops more interesting, especially the new crafting mat suggestion as it gives more options to players.
@@FrozenSentinel The numbers doesn't really matter. I could say double the drop rates and half the slam chance, or increase drop rates by 15% and reduce slam by 13% (which would lead to the same overall chance), but it's not really what I'm talking about. If the goal is to make the RNG feel less bad, while still keeping the overall chance the same, increasing slam rates and reducing drop rates does the exact opposite of that.
As already mentioned, you already explained how making slam rates too high makes the misses feel really bad, and decreasing the drop rates when they are already microscopically low makes that aspect of the game also feel worse.
Making it so LP3s (and 2s for that matter) are more frequent and thus also feel less punishing when they slam poorly is exactly how you would make the process feel less bad.
You could absolutely argue that making items rarer and thus more exciting when they drop could make the game more fun, but I wouldn't say that's really an issue with Last Epochs loot system atm.
You are way overthinking and way overcomplicating a very simple problem with a very simple solution. They need to create a currency that is however rare it needs to be that guarantees a mod. It's that simple. I don't play these games to play the lottery or a casino. The gamble does absolutely nothing for me.
I explained why I felt that was a bad idea, it provides a vastly different benefit to items of different LP levels. For items where 1LP is the max reasonable LP farmed, it is insane. Guaranteeing a T7 on a Red Ring for example, is significantly more powerful than a T7 on 2LP Blood of the Exile which still needs to roll for the other affix chosen.
For 1LP it completely removes the RNG from the slam. For a 2LP it makes it a 1 in 3 instead of a 1 in 6 to get top 2 preferred affixes. For a 3LP it makes it a 1 in 3 instead of a 1 in 4 to get your top 3 preferred affixes.
My suggestion of blocking an undesired affix provides a fairly consistent benefit regardless of the LP level.
I understand the point of the video but your suggestions are completely ridiculous. You are essentially asking them to completely devalue 4LP Uniques and make 3LP just as success efficient as a 4LP. That will never happen and should never happen. Both of your examples ask for this thus both your examples are completely pointless.
What you should be asking for is a means to lower the rarity of the acquisition rate. (Diablo 4 just went through this with their Ancestral Gear) Where it was too rare to even be fun when only 1 person per season even got one. So they raised the drop rate to allow for more chances at rarity variants. Now 4LP Ancestral Pieces are still rare, but you get way more base drop chances.
Last Epoch's issues though happen WELL before this RNG stuff even becomes an issue. Their entire Dungeon system and locking LP slamming behind T4 Julra gatekeeps 99% of their playerbase from even interacting with this system for rare high level uniques and the Dungeon is so unfun that no one wants to do it anyway. Essentially, there's bigger fish to fry with the game than solving 3LP slam rates.
it's not as success efficient at all... you still need to roll for the other affixes and you need to input a rare currency which itself has an RNG component to get that, and you end up with 1 fewer affix.
@@FrozenSentinel You are bypassing the point that it would devalue 4LP. It will never happen.
And getting good exalts isn't that difficult you are making it sound like exalts are incredibly hard to farm when they are probably the easiest thanks Lightless Arbor and CoF. Or just go MG and buy whatever you need.
The point is the Slam Success Efficiency is what you are arguing to change by making 3LP just as successful at 4LP - it won't happen.
@ehg