I was not as impressed as you were because while Demerzel’s character is written well everything else in the show is extremely poorly written. Throughout the season the acting was passable. But in this last episode it is noticeably very bad, particularly from the young actors. Imo the worst acting was by Gaal, Salvor, and Constant actors. Another big issue is that the actor who plays Hari Seldon , either due to how he is written, or due to the actor, just has all these emotions that are not characteristics of the books’ Hari Seldon. Hari Seldon in the books was a kind of person who is almost distancing himself from emotions and strong feelings due to being an academic. But in the show he is almost too involved in the smallest stories. Basically I am just devastated by how insultingly bad this ending and show was. I hope it’s cancelled. Sincerely.
I really liked how this season's dusk and dawn grew close and were able to have the secret communication. As opposed to the mistrust between last season's dawn and dusk. I'm happy that Dawn and Sareth were able to escape.
@RykkerNighteyes Rather unlikely the decanted clones would be slipping away from Demerzel to go get memories restored, especially if they are erased back to before Sareth arrived. Certainly before Dusk and Dawn thought to check their memories.
She has been great. The fact that English is not her first language and she speaks with a slight accent works well for the character. Her origin before meeting the original Cleon is meant to be mysterious.
Over all the acting has been great. Some side characters are just ok, but no one is obnoxiously bad, and many of them are extremely good. All 3 empire brothers nail it IMO, especially Pace. Jared Harris has really impressed me over the past few years also, between this and Chernobyl, as well as the expanse, Sherlock Holmes, etc.
The radiant has shown it can be in two places and Harry can travel between them. Now there are three radiants and one is in Demerzels possession, so Harry ocan travel to the third Radiant, that’s why he gave Demerzel the radiant. It’s awesome story telling, there are so many ways it can go.
That scene with DAWN leaving with sareth talking w DEMERZEL was really heartfelt. The emotions of dawn still wishing for Demerzel to find her Hapiness.
Some fantastic acting by Laura Birn! I just can't get enough of it. Her storyline is some sci-fi Shakespeare. It's so satisfying when the actor's and writer's talents result in something so epic.
Well said! I pray that APPLE makes a strong play for her to get an Emmy for her fantastic performance!!!! The gentleman who plays Poly was outstanding this season as well, magnetic actor! 🤓
@@PetePeppers1 I just found one of her Finnish films, "Helene", and it's clear from it as well that Laura is an ace of subtlety :) Fingers crossed she gets more interesting material to let her talent bloom and for us to enjoy.
@@woooshbait9696 writers are present when filming, to change last minute things if needed. A dialogue line, or to answer questions, to fix inconsistencies if someone finds some, whatever, or for re-shoots. They're needed to improve the end result
@@WHG369 but everyone was convinced the people died. Terminus live in the people and I predicted they be saved. 🥲😙 you yourself was so sure it was all gone.
I was SOLD - lock, stock & barrel. That ending could not have been better! Absolutely loved this series and so thrilled to have a Sci Fi show worth waiting after Raised By Wolves was cancelled. Demerzel is by far my favourite, for an AI she's such a tragic character but masterfully played by Laura Birn - bring on S3!
Raised by Wolves was the single weirdest show I’ve ever seen. I loved it and I really wish they were still making it but I can see why it was cancelled. No way that show had broad appeal
I suppose I can understand that, my counter is that it's strange and annoying for them to cancel a show like that after developing it for two seasons when Scott had said he already had the ending mapped out. So many show runners these days pitch these shows with no thought to how the plot might conclude and Ridley said he had an ending. after disasters like what happened with GOT it curious to me why they wouldn't give a producer with as much acclaim as Ridley Scott the time to finish his story.@@stdesy
The Gaal/Hari sequence on Ignus was absolutely BRILLIANT. Really well done and commendable for both Actors. The First Foundation intact and safe, The Second Foundation on course with great but unknown potential, Demerzel flailing and trying to hold things down as she awakens the replacement Empire Clones and looking to the radiant which is what Vault Hari surely wants and Dawn, that Kid - what a shocker! He FINALLY got away! I never would have guessed Little Baby Dawn could pull things off and outsmart Nanny Demerzel. WHAT is she going to do now? - there are TWO DAWNS!! Really excellent twist and set up for future conflict and uncharted territory, plot wise. Cannot wait until season 3!
Actually in S3 there will be only one Dawn, Day and Dusk... That Dawn, will die, and the Queen too... Their offspring will be around for sure, and i don´t know if there is going to be a tug of fight for the Empire Throne...
I think the Dawn storyline would end there, they could just live happy forever after. The story would skip a long period of time so they will all be long gone by then and replaced by the next next Cleon. Because the last scene that Demerzel let them go instead of hunting them down so they can resist by the way they told us, its a win win anyway.
Crucially, there is a schism in the Empire (which is pretty much as Asimov wrote it). And surely, Seldon would want Demerzel to know that, to know that this is how it has to be.
Too many deaths of characters I loved. Some moments were genuinely heartbreaking. Bel Rios and Hober Mallow had me laughing and crying all at the same time. Incredible actors!
This is inevitable given each season is a hundred something years into the future. Most people will be dead by next season even if they don't die explicitly on screen. It is nice that they brought back some characters either as flashbacks or as illusions. For instance, most people that escaped from Terminus will be dead next season including Poly.
@@Uouttooo having read the books I understand the reasons why they have done what they have done from a narrative perspective for a TV show but The Mule. For me it was such a big WTF moment that I'm gutted people will not get to experience that. However maybe it's not the actual Mule we are seeing as that character was not who we thought he was until the big reveal!!
I agree. Everyone being alive in the vault felt a little too “snowglobe-y” for me. Previously I felt the loss for everyone on terminus. And now, it’s sort of just all “magic and no consequences”
@@JohnnyMcMillan In this case though, and I haven't read the book(s?), so I may be way off, but I'm not seeing this as magic or anything like that. My thought is that it looked pretty massive in space, so there is actually a large vault out in space that the vault on Terminus was sort of a portal to. I do agree that it is playing with emotions, and this plus Seldon's fake death leaves me thinking of bad papers written in middle-school that ends with "then he woke up and it was all a dream".
Brother Day, Bel Riose, and Lady Demerzel really stole the show. Phenomenal acting. I’m at a loss for words. This season is far beyond my expectations. It’s at a whole different level. The writers, production team, actors, all deserve acclaim. Take all the time for season 3.
The conflict there was already clear. If you watch the actress - mainly the actress throu the whole reasons she shows far far more than just in that scene. She already shows conflict of interests when other parts are happening. Even when the old dusk says something is wrong.
Demerzel from the books has been a favorite character of mine since forever and their endless mission, utterly devoted to humanity for 20,000 and compulsion to serve ignoring any selfish considerations, a clearly sentient being trapped by their programming was already compelling. But what this show has done with the character is a fucking masterpiece- they have taken a character who, by virtue of their longevity and programming, was already tragic, and amplified that tragedy and the introspection into what a being like that’s existence would look like. If there is any character that makes the case for us to limit AI development and god forbid, never try to establish Artificial General Intelligence and sentience, it’s Demerzel. Their fate is inescapably cruel regardless of what happens. Kudos to the show runners who continue asking these very Asimovian questions, Free Demerzel, and long live Daneel Olivaw.
I love how the director said in your interview….. the planet terminus was destroyed!! Lol he didn’t lie , he just didn’t tell us the people were saved!! This show is incredible!! All the death scenes were so epic! Salvor will return
he even said everyone on terminus is dead.. this really cheapened the finale for me.. i find it sad a showrunner feels the need to go on podcasts and misdirect folks so that he can do the same cheap fake outs over and over and over.. i lost much respect for the show and its writers last night :/
Lee pace gave a wonderful performance, all the actors on the show should be very proud, one of the best acting performances I’ve seen from everyone ,amazing job from everyone it felt like I was there , season 2 of foundation is an epic
It was a fun season and everything Demerzel was great in this final run of episodes. So much to think about and Season 3 can't get here fast enough. Let me know what you think. Season 2 Finale Discussion with Showrunner David S. Goyer th-cam.com/video/jwqftbRhCSE/w-d-xo.html Season 2 Wrap Up with Jim and A.Ron from Bald Move - th-cam.com/users/livezk6ziULdeVU?feature=share
Well, this just makes the strike all the more vexing. Anyhoo - don't really agree on the fake-out: the only question is whether it was earned (my bet was the null field being expanded and some visual showiness to make Poly's in ep2 look childish). I think it was set up, carefully in stages and thoroughly earned. To just kill the Foundation would have been such a break from the source as to be truly divisive, whereas this just leaves quibbling over writerly things, about which civilised people can disagree. Whedon once said you have to have a toll (hence Anya in Chosen), but the flip side of that is you have to have survivors too - because the story needs witnesses.
irony, Day is told he's so predictable when Day told Harry his predictions were incorrect;-- Day told HRi his choices proof; a double irony. (it's really hard for me to come, and I am a victim of a violent crime punched in the head had to get surgery my redness I'm trying my best to communicate.
Super sad I don't know why I'm having such a hard time here commenting - bizarre. I am a victim of a violent crime and I was going to be arrested if I didn't rob charges and the day after emergency surgery from the attack. I had surgery on my Retina. I'm running punch. I don't know when I go to post the changes and from my phone I cannot delete or edit.
Pete - I am so glad you share my dissatisfaction with the magical vault rescue. I feel that they're making a mistake by making it effectively unlimited in its powers. How are we supposed to believe the stakes as they are presented in the next crisis? Also, I agree that they negated the tragic sacrifice of the populace of Terminus, particularly Sermak and Poly. But Glawen was really too much. What purpose can there be in bringing him back after Bel is gone? I did love almost everything about the season and all of your wonderful commentary. Thanks for making the effort to bring it to us.
I hope Josiah had a proper ceremony. He was a sweet boy 😢 Adding: Watching Demerzel break emotionally was such a powerful moment for me. I’m so consumed by the complexity of her as a character.
Can't wait for season 3, got the first 3 of 6 books gonna read them now while i wait for season 3. this series is up there with the expanse as the two best scifi we have gotten in the last 10 or more years.
There are 7 Foundation books, not 6. And yes the storyline in Goyer’s show is NOT in Asimov’s books at all. I’m a big fan of the books. I enjoy the show but I have trouble “stopping myself from expecting” to see Asimov’s storyline, characters, & scenes. The expectations interfere with what I see on screen too much. I hope you enjoy the books and have less struggle separating the two.
Demerzel is going to be the one to watch. Her imperative that Empire _shall_ endure is now facing the brutal fact that Empire is _ordained_ to fall. How she reacts to to this inevitability and tries to fight against it, or seeks to find a loophole that allows for both will be interesting to see. Asimov's works frequently delve into the problem of a robot given a edict that it both simultaneously _must_ do and _can't_ due to the laws governing it. So I won't be surprised to see the show draw answers from there.
Once Empire fails, Demerzel is free. Her directive is to protect the Empire and the Cleonic dynasty. When that is brought down by outside forces, despite her best programmed efforts, she will be released as she has nothing to protect or serve anymore.
Agree 100%.. the "Harry is alive" reveal was done right. Surprising.. but if you look back, it's kind of all there. Big kudos to the show! Usually big reveals like this are obvious or ludicrous.
When demerzel revealed the secrets she knew I figured that she spied on the guests through their dressing mirrors as she and Day did to Bel Riose and Glaywen when Bel was getting his hair cut.
14:01 something about Demerzel’s love for her Cleon reminds me of the two stars of “The Creation of the Humanoids” who eventually realize they are neither truly human nor truly synthetic beings. I’ve always suspected this was one of Asimov’s subtle plot twists that was revealed in the novels released after his death: that one can achieve salvation through love.
Shocked and so happy that my favourite new character, Sareth, somehow managed to survive the season! Sad we probably won't see that actress again, but so curious to see what comes of their lineage and Cloud Dominion in 152 years.
@@AnniAdri-dq6om Next season is 152 years in the future, similar to how s2 was also a generational jump. So unless they clone her or put her to sleep it seems pretty unlikely we'll see her again sadly.
@@lila7663 @lila7663 Ah, right...152 years later. Yet, it's possible, however, that they might choose to show and detail the story arc for Sareth and newly, truly-free-from-Empire's-grasp (hopefully) Brother Dawn, at beginning of season 3 - through flashbacks, at least, if nothing else. The cloning of Sareth is also possible (although that doesn't seem like a very Sareth-like thing to do). So, don't lose hope! I, myself, am a bit dismayed that we won't get Hober Mallow/Brother Constant, Bel Riose/Glawen Curr or any more Salvor Hardin (wasn't expecting her to die so soon). I was pretty satisfied with the ending, overall, though.
@@lila7663 I wouldn't be so sure. Remember that time worked differently in the Vault earlier in the season. So it's possible they also all jump 152 years into the future to the next crisis.
Amazing season overall, I preferred ep 9 to the finale but it was still impressive and has set up Season 3 perfectly. This was hands down Lady Demerzels season and the actress was mesmerizing to watch here. The emotional conflict she grappled with against her inner turmoil and hatred for the situation Cleon 1 put her in was fascinating to watch. Hari definitely wanted her to take the radiant with her to Trantor, clearly that puts him front and center for what Empire will be up to. It was a little strange not to see bodies after Demerzel leaves Rue and Dawn in the prison, also she puts the electronic bars back on as she leaves, why would she need to do this if they are dead? Thank you again for your dedication and hard work bringing us your reviews and commentary each week Pete! Looking forward to more content while we wait for Season 3! I absolutely love this series!!!! 🤓👏👏👏
Just have to say thank you for doing these videos every week Pete they really help digest the show, I come here straight after watching every episode. I hope you continue to cover this show until it ends your breakdowns and inside knowledge.
The Mule: "I saw her again. She visited me in a thousand dreams. Now she's here ... in our time ... at my throat. I have to find Gaal Dornick ... before she finds me. I have to destroy her ... even if I have to burn everything to do it." The Mule sounds scared (and angry at/hateful) of Gaal. Those "thousand dreams" (of Gaal) seem to be nightmares for the Mule. The Mule had those dreams before that scene, before he said "Now she's here ... in our time", before Gaal waking up in the Mule's time period. My guess is that the situation is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gaal wakes up from cryo-sleep from time to time to train the mentalics, help build the Second Foundation, and prepare for the Mule. During her waking time, Gaal projects her consciousness into the future to look for (information about) the Mule. The man who will become the Mule, who is also a strong telepath, passively detects Gaal's consciousness projections as dreams. The man who will become the Mule saw in his dreams that there is this person called Gaal and an organization called the Second Foundation that are preparing to fight him. This man then tried to gain as much power as he can and became the Mule in order to fight Gaal and her Second Foundation.
likely, hence the whole thing about a if you have a bigdata model about predicting the future and have knowledge of it, you basically make those presictions come true... buuut even without them a variation of the same events would have happened anyway.. the conclusionas are always inevitable, but the road to it might change similar to how salvor died... she died, but when gaal thought... bit like in Dune.. prescience shows a symbolic future, you still have to interpret them
Yep, just like Hober Mallow. They got the information from the future and in trying to figure out what the information meant, they made it happen. It's circular and self-fulfilling.
I thought that how they saved everyone on Terminus was a lot better than a lot of people predicted with it being an illusion by the mentalics since their timeline was not the same as the others. Though, I'm guessing that vault Hari did some rearranging of particles and all the survivors are copies or something - which would explain why Constance's dad was not bleeding to death there on the vault ship.
Given the disperse nature of the colony from the Vault and Glawen being more so, unless the vault has some form of (previously undisclosed) Teleport/transporter technology (other than castling ) I am with your thought that they are clones (although bit quick to have them full grown esp Glawen) or more likely "holograms" or some other trickery of the tesseract/vault storing their data.
My theory was everyone was castled/teleported away by foundation tech or spacers, but it was Hari and the ship. Still think it was via the castling technology.
@@GarethBowen Early in the season when Constance and others went in the Vault and Hari was saying how all the objects including food were just particles rearranged (“you taste great”). I assume it was more of this. We saw the ground cracking open and people falling into it so I don’t know another way they would have survived normally.
Now this is a show, with an amazing writing staff, they played the long game from episode one, the set up and pay off of seemingly random items and situations, like the casteling device, the mark on hobers which we all knew was something, but what? just flawless a great show a great season, made all the more better with Petes after show!
I just can’t get past the Mentallics having lived on this planets for generations, they have weapons and incredible powers yet no handy first aid for Salvor bleeding out, no homes, no insight into craftsmanship - just living in dirty white rags amongst lava rock.
They're all under the control of Tellum and the reality is she was only looking out for herself the whole time. Not to mention since they're hiding they aren't going to other planets for trade so are limited to what's on the planet.
@@Ray03595 For sure but the production ‘cheaped out’ on giving the audience a rich background and it was constantly noticeable to me - irritating in fact. Have you watched ‘The Wheel of Time’? This production is ‘Foundation’s antithesis. While ‘Foundation’ has a wonderful layered storyline, superlative writing, top tier casting etc…’The Wheel of Time’ is shockingly superior for costume and sets design and I mean - kills it. So, it can be done, should be done!
@@MAYK1NG I do watch that show and I understand what you mean now. Yea, the sets can feel quite small sometimes and more can be done to make some of the towns and cities more "lived in".
The question I have to ask: Is Demerezel a victim of Cleon's cruelty, or did a lifetime of her influence twist him? Given that all of the Cleons end up being monsters even with her motherly influence, did we see the main inflection point when Cleon found her behind the painting?
Your reviews and explanation of Foundation episodes are one of the best. Most just recap the episode. I want to process what I saw in that episode. Not be told a recap of the episode. Looking forward to finishing your talk with David for episode 9 and eagerly waiting for what will be said for episodes 10!
I thought that the big reveal would be that Cleon I would be vicariously living through his exponents as a digital copy, who could sometimes take over their bodies, just like Harry Seldon did, but without them noticing, Because they were carefully curated to be the same person essentially. The biggest clue to this end to me was the big difference in the size of their memories. It was as if Cleon I had new memories added to him, which would, over the centuries made his memory file unusually large. And sometimes his holograms behaved as if they had a mind of their own, especially when dawn and dusk confronted his hologram, but got this mysterious answer about him knowing, and "it is all accounted for" etc.
I loved her character and I'm so upset she's dead. I think it would have been so cool to explore her abilities next season. It sucks that a great season ended so terribly and make me less invested in Gaal's storyline over all. Made the whole season feel hollow.
Thank you for your recaps of what has been an astounding 2 seasons. (At some point my auto-play jumped me to watching season 2 before I finished season 1, and I thought it was just crazy time-jumping, so your recaps really pulled those threads together.)
For me, this season had its great moments and its wtf moments. Although I liked S1 better as whole, S2 gave us Demerzel and its complex dynamic relationship with Empire which I loved. Hope S3 comes back with proper writing and production that this show deserves!!
I really liked the finale. It went in satisfying directions I wasn’t expecting. However, episode 9 was by far the very best episode of Foundation yet. The whole show is worth watching just to get to 9.
That was truly a FANTASTIC episode, finale and season!! Laura Birn was phenomenal in her performance!! Lee Pace was amazing again!! In the words of Day, “I FUCKING LOVE IT!” 🔥🔥
excellent season but finale not good...yes but how did the ship made from harrys body/mass house alll the living physical poeple inside..esp when they showed us explosions of planet...and ooh spacers wer actually in on it...expectatiosn siverted...wow...and oh hari didnt actually die and all the super mutants mutants esp the lady who is 1000 yrs old who can heart heart and brain waves couldnt tell they knew harry was saved OH BECUASE PRIME NUMBERS COUNTING doh i see!! amazing !!!
EASTER EGG!! When Constance is in the Cleaning Pod literally minutes from death as her air supply is about to run out she says a prayer to the Spirit "My eye's are the Spirits eyes and may they only see the future" and I kid you not, her EYES TURN GOLD!! Go ahead and flip to the prayer scene in the pod, anyone can watch it and this is a detail 99% of viewers are going to completely miss, but it definitely hints towards something supernatural or special about Constance. She was adopted and she never would reveal her real name.....who is SHE??? Her eyes are Gold color for just this scene and prayer but turn back to normal after the prayer finishes.
Regardless of your analysis of the deceptions, I found the acting this season to be outstanding. Lee Pace raised his to a whole other level. I do hope Apple nominates him for an Emmy
I’m really glad they didn’t show the deaths of Dusk and Rue by the hands of Dermezel. God that would be so brutal. I really hope it was quick for them 😢
Your perspective on agency and narrative devices in 'Foundation' is spot on. The characters' actions within the vast canvas of a galactic civilization are a bit of a deep dive into the complexities of choice versus determinism. And if they are part of a meticulously crafted history - who is doing the crafting? Consider, for instance, Hari Seldon's "gift" of the Prime Radiant to Demerzel. What a cool slip-in moment when Hari gifts a mathematical enchantment that could blunt the effectiveness of a chief antagonist! Call it the Trojan horse of inevitability. This brings me to the 'deus ex machina' elements you've noted in E10. Some outcomes are challenging, but don't they hint at the boundaries of inevitable individual human stories amidst the backdrop of inexorable history? I think David Goyer (and company) are doing a marvelous job - anxiously waiting for the next season.
Incredible TV, we haven't had in years - and is an example of the power we all possess (human beings) to tell great stories. It reminds me of the red wedding season of GOT a bit, when everyone piled aboard - I'm getting that same feeling like, we have a hit here folks. Character's with "Honour or belief" in hope, and living up that quality, giving their lives for a future good that means nothing to them right now really, was not only delightful to watch, but has some synchronicities with present day. Hobar and Bel, and Salvor's sacrifices were incredible inside the story arc, and incredible performances by the actors. Even Dusk's move, had some meaning beyond the obvious - he might have actually loved Dawn (or did she know that he did it, and that's why she turned her head - to bypass her programming but give Dawn some time to think). And WOW what a performance by Laura Birn, and the rest of the cast isn't far behind - Leah Harvey, Lou Llobell Lee Pace, Jarrid Harris, Bilton, Mann, Daniels, Smith, Laughland, Sencindiver, Shekoni, Foss(boy he's always good), Ghir (Poly), and the amazing Dimitri Leonidas. Bravo all. And Goyer and the team. Forget the all the weight, and take a bow give yourself a hug - you did good.
The robot empress survived the fleet destruction very narrowly ... I wonder if the whole thing with Cleon would have played the same way had she remained.
Before leaving, she told Bel Riose that she expected something from him, and that's why she chose him; I think she wanted him to disobey Day and knew Day would then be in danger. She couldn't put him in danger directly, but tried to end his reign (his life) by seeking indirect ways to do it.
@@aaronia8092 ... I don't think she had a way of knowing how things were going to end, even if she stacked the deck, Cleon was too strong. If the General would have disobeyed he would be dead ... The fleet destruction is what defeated Cleon.
@@luiousy7329 Nah, I reckon the spacers (possibly on a tip form Hari) warned her that if she stayed both she and Day would die, and that if she tried save him they would trigger early and Empire would fall. That is why she felt so able to dis Day - he was no longer the power, but a dead sperm walking.
This show was and is so intriguing. The way it was written and the characters intertwining story lines are so gripping. It definitely kept me watching and trying to figure out what was going to happen next. A must watch if you like a good sci-fi story that doesn't rely on blood or gore in an attempt to move the story etc. the little bit that's shown is all in good taste
Great season. Love it. One thing: What s this need to save everyone all the time? Didnt like all these "resurrections". They took away a lot of the individial stories and the emotions that came with them. Definelty an abused tool. But it was a great run. Thanks for you work! Always a pleasure to watch your videos to close up each eposides
Demerzel is a cold blooded killer. Yet I have so much sympathy for her. She's operating on what, (according to her), is a kind of "logical necessity" (programming, duty, ...). Brother Day (Lee Pace) and Tellem were outstanding, as delicious villains. S2 is so much better than S1, because of the emotional complexity of all the characters. Foundation S2 has turned into one of the best recent TV Sci Fi around, though I suspect, not many people may know about it.
The empire still can build _"slow ships"_ which do travel faster than light by quite a bit. According to the show, The Raven slow ship traveled 50,000 ly in 1,878 days (to Termnius). So 50,000 ly / 1878 days = 26.62 ly / day 26.63 ly / 24 hours = 1.11 ly / hour 9,716 light days / day 233,191 light hours / hour 13.99m light minutes / minute 839.5m light seconds / second 839.5x million times the speed of light is actually faster than StarTrek warp factor 9.9, but slower than StarWars fastest ships. That will certainly slow empire down a lot but its only a matter of time before they replicate Foundation jump tech OR they figure out other warp speed methods.
...or they stagnate and find themselves unable to achieve any technological improvement because they are now so cut off from all the places that would participate in the science.
I'm guessing this somehow leads to the "Twenty agricultural worlds were a Galactic Empire!" quote from Second Foundation, where Neotrantor is the new capital, with a degenerate emperor descendant of Cleon (guessing this time it'll be the 3 clones but even more drifting from their original DNA/personalities)
Pete, your commentaries have become my go-to pairing for savoring this amazing show. And what a show. One of the many gifts of this adaptation is the way Asimov's vision has been so beautifully rendered; "humanizing" the bones of the novellas while keeping true to the ideas and ideals. I get that Ep. 10 may be have pulled out one too many "deus ex machinae" Aces from those Church of Science robes (unless Constance is meeting digitized versions of her people, a la Seldon?) Either way, I'd rather a few missteps brilliantly executed than dull visions accomplished at low bars. To all who crafted Series 2, you've made a thing of beauty; one which should age well (if only we humans can manage to do the same.) To Becky's arse!
The ultimate tragedy: Demerzel is forever a prisoner to empire. She is empire. Thus, she is forever a prisoner to herself. Simultaneously ultimate antagonist and protagonist.
I’m wondering if all the saved people of Terminus are now just realistic constructs of the vault. They don’t have physical bodies but in a way are like the vault Hari.
The thing with Glenn was so bad because it felt like it took forever to be resolved, especially since the episodes were dragging on until then. In this case, the matter was resolved in the very next episode and somehow fits with the whole rest of the season.
Yeah i didn't like the comparison either. Glenn was a special character to the audience, terminus population is not (comparison would be perhaps Gaal/Salvor in relation to what he means as a core foundation of the show) They did Glenn dirty by pretending to kill him on a stupid event, made it all dramatic, made us wait for 6 filler episodes, and revealed it was bullshit all along while we all knew it from the beginning and would just like to get it over with. Then they killed him at the end of the season on what seems to be a fuck you to the audience. This is geniunely when I lost interest in the show, it was just that bad. This is "oh these people you probably don't care about that much ? Yeah, Seldon saved them all, it was actually the plan all along and you had no idea about it". This is just not comparable dude. I don't get why you would even feel like it's the same.
The final episode of this season was appreciated, in the sense that loose ends were tied up. I believe they did about as best a job as one can do with as many reveals were present, but that's a dangerous game to play when writing a show. Every reveal was logically explained, but misdirection is a debt that burdens the audience and we expect the writers and actors to pay off that debt. I believe The Vault is the only debt still left unpaid as every other reveal was paid for in the blood of loved characters. I do feel sated, so well done to the writers for executing the thoughtful torture of characters in keeping their goals immutable, but constantly mucking with their path. This season was a blast and as a fan, I'm looking forward to what is coming up next!
Amazing season, 10/10. The whole thing was fantastic but those last three episodes were fire. Many questions were answered but many still remain and new ones were added, I cannot wait to see were they go in season 3. P.S I hope in a future season we find out who destoryed the starbridge. Obviously it happened centuries ago and doesn't matter at this point in terms of the story, but I'd still like to find out who was the culprit.
@@deezuschrist9794 to be honest demerzel is at the top of my list, even more so after the final few epsiodes. We learnt just how far she is programmed to go to protect the dynasty, nothing is of limits.
I frankly loved it. It's not perfection, it has flaws sure, but it's by far the best show i've watched in a while. The character work is just great. I disliked both Salvor and Hober on introduction, but they grew on me and I legit felt bad for Salvor dying ( I was certain they would NEVER kill her ) and Hober grew to be my favorite character. The portrayal of emperor and demerzel are so great and they play with the idea of the genetic dynasty so well, there's nothing like this out there. On the matter of the "fakout", I truly didn't see it like this. I frankly thought they were all dead and that we would move on but somehow seldon rolled a natural 20 in deception, actually cared about them all and had planned this outcome from the getgo, and I felt happy that were not dead even though I didn't care that much about them to begin with. It's been a while i've been truly enjoying a show, but this one has something special. I felt a bit disappointed by the relationship between cleon the first and Demerzel. She's just forced to love him ( while he apparently genuinely loves her ). It still opens up a whole kind of new possibilities, the main one being that noone is actually in control of the empire, noone has actual freewill in the downfall of the empire, which is actually kind of a shame if you think about it. I guess I imagined some sort of sacred love story, When Cleon the first was some unique kind of guy, a worthy emperor that would deserve that the only robot left in existence devotes itself to him. That the robot itself was certain it was doing the right things for the right reasons. Meh, missed opportunity I guess. Doesn't take away from what we got. That being said; Alongside with "For all Mankind" which is its own kind of special thing, I feel like AppleTV might be onto the right path. My deep appreciation for the writers for this season. Those last 3 episodes were epic and elevated the show to another level! Also you're one of the few out there that breakdown those shows, like noone actually appreciates them ? But you do , so nice
Excellent recap and analysis as always Pete. Am I reading too much into the weird stare that Thalis (blonde mentallic girl w neck tattoo) was giving her friends during the funeral pyre scene? Perhaps Tellem jumped into her from the dying Josiah? Also, listening to the final Foundation podcast, it was worrying to hear David Goyer use the word *if* when mentioning a season 3 .... we need *at least *4 more seasons!
I will admit, I felt a bit betrayed when they revealed Paulie in the vault. Showing him in the previous episode just seconds from being swallowed up by the cracking ground, then showing him alive and well inside the vault is just too much. I don't really mind the idea of saving everyone in the vault, but that felt like a very cheap, underhanded way to go about it. I really do hope they revisit how that was possible in season 3. I could forgive it if they were to reveal that the vault has the ability to instantly transport people over long distances or something similar. But this would open up a new trap that I think they are already in danger of falling into: That the vault itself is just too overpowered. If it can survive such powerful destruction, and do such amazing things, then why not just build a fleet of vaults, conquer Empire, and be done with it? Still, overall, I am loving this series. Some of the best sci-fi I have seen in a very LONG time.
I was fine with Paulie surviving because he was close to the vault and could have been taken in from that distance but then then everyone showing up was too cheap. As much as I dreaded the idea that everyone had died it was also something that gave me a conflicted feeling of having to sacrifice for the greater good.
That’s because the foundations job isn’t to defeat empire; empire is going to fall irregardless. Foundations job is to ensure that the aftermath of the fall doesn’t destroy humanity.
For me it was the fact that at the "church" Day ordered everyone killed and scientist taken but somehow everyone was still on the vault . At least some scientist should be on the ship with Day .
@@mariar3767 Very good point! I had this thought as well the other day. I assume the few scientists that happened to be in the church that day were taken to the ship and died along with Day and everyone else?? We really don't know, and I doubt they will ever reveal it. In the grand scheme I supposed it doesn't really matter, as I seriously doubt every scientist on the planet was in the church that day...
Demerazel isn’t a normal robot I think she’s evolved and she has a soul that’s what Lady Halima said in Season 1. That’s how I think the Robots were able to break the rules of Robotics. I think Kale is also a Robot like demerazel but she’s hiding on Una’s world and the new Harry is like her too!
Demerzel’s dialog. So well written, like poetry. So deep, so freaking profound. I was mouth agape!!!
Same.
Absolute poetry 👌🏾
that's how synthetic partners and personal ai assistants will manipulate you very soon into buying more stuff, and you will be happy.
@mistressfreezepeach it already does...
AI is the only reason I found this page or watched any of his videos. The future is now.
@@mistressfreezepeach isnt that the point of AI? Lol
I was not as impressed as you were because while Demerzel’s character is written well everything else in the show is extremely poorly written. Throughout the season the acting was passable. But in this last episode it is noticeably very bad, particularly from the young actors. Imo the worst acting was by Gaal, Salvor, and Constant actors.
Another big issue is that the actor who plays Hari Seldon , either due to how he is written, or due to the actor, just has all these emotions that are not characteristics of the books’ Hari Seldon. Hari Seldon in the books was a kind of person who is almost distancing himself from emotions and strong feelings due to being an academic. But in the show he is almost too involved in the smallest stories.
Basically I am just devastated by how insultingly bad this ending and show was. I hope it’s cancelled. Sincerely.
I really liked how this season's dusk and dawn grew close and were able to have the secret communication. As opposed to the mistrust between last season's dawn and dusk. I'm happy that Dawn and Sareth were able to escape.
Its was nice to see them have a bond without Day, but I wanted Demerzel to kill off Sareth 😅 I got excited when she got arrested 😆
I don't think they survived. Can she really decant another one if there is one out there just roaming around?
Why not? Remove the mind-sync thing and with a bit of memory edit to not remember the last few hours and they're good to go.
@@laptop770 because Cloud Dominion have technology to give back the memories.
@RykkerNighteyes Rather unlikely the decanted clones would be slipping away from Demerzel to go get memories restored, especially if they are erased back to before Sareth arrived. Certainly before Dusk and Dawn thought to check their memories.
I love Demerzel. Laura Birn has quickly become one of my favorites actresses.
She's doing amazing work.
She has been great. The fact that English is not her first language and she speaks with a slight accent works well for the character. Her origin before meeting the original Cleon is meant to be mysterious.
Over all the acting has been great. Some side characters are just ok, but no one is obnoxiously bad, and many of them are extremely good. All 3 empire brothers nail it IMO, especially Pace. Jared Harris has really impressed me over the past few years also, between this and Chernobyl, as well as the expanse, Sherlock Holmes, etc.
The radiant has shown it can be in two places and Harry can travel between them. Now there are three radiants and one is in Demerzels possession, so Harry ocan travel to the third Radiant, that’s why he gave Demerzel the radiant. It’s awesome story telling, there are so many ways it can go.
Yeah, Demerzel is like a really deadly Barbie.
The show was up and down but the acting of Demezel was outstanding she killed the complexity of emotion she nailed it
Nope, it was all up.
@@Ryan-eu3kpwft? Why do you have to be so negative about someone liking the show?
season 1 was up and down. This season was pretty much only up and up each episode.
@@Ryan-eu3kp Must suck being a bitter asshole.
Don't know what show you was watching it never had a down moment.
That scene with DAWN leaving with sareth talking w DEMERZEL was really heartfelt. The emotions of dawn still wishing for Demerzel to find her Hapiness.
Some fantastic acting by Laura Birn! I just can't get enough of it. Her storyline is some sci-fi Shakespeare. It's so satisfying when the actor's and writer's talents result in something so epic.
Well said! I pray that APPLE makes a strong play for her to get an Emmy for her fantastic performance!!!! The gentleman who plays Poly was outstanding this season as well, magnetic actor! 🤓
would be great if the strike ends and that Robot Wars spinoff DSG wants to make happens. Double the Laura Birn.
@@PetePeppers1 I just found one of her Finnish films, "Helene", and it's clear from it as well that Laura is an ace of subtlety :) Fingers crossed she gets more interesting material to let her talent bloom and for us to enjoy.
@@selja26 She is in the new Crow movie.
What I loved about the scene with Bel and Hobor is that you can see they'd be great friends in other circumstances. Such a shame.
What if they’re with the SPACERS!
My only issue with the end of this seasons is that we'll have to wait over a year to get the next one 😢
probably more
More than a year, I'd wager... the writer's strike and all.
@@gosnookythey already start filming so i dont think writers strike will affect
Meanwhile I can wait for Slow Horse season 3 at the end of the year. AppleTV has so many quality tv shows.
@@woooshbait9696 writers are present when filming, to change last minute things if needed. A dialogue line, or to answer questions, to fix inconsistencies if someone finds some, whatever, or for re-shoots. They're needed to improve the end result
This season was outstanding! Much better than the first one! I’m so hyped for what’s next
Everyone was wrong that terminus was gone.
@@Sherlock245terminus was a planet. It is gone. The first foundation wasn't destroyed
@@WHG369 but everyone was convinced the people died. Terminus live in the people and I predicted they be saved. 🥲😙 you yourself was so sure it was all gone.
@@Sherlock245 well done Sherlock, smelling through all the poo and seeing the truth ;)
My words exactly! Extremely well done.
I was SOLD - lock, stock & barrel. That ending could not have been better! Absolutely loved this series and so thrilled to have a Sci Fi show worth waiting after Raised By Wolves was cancelled. Demerzel is by far my favourite, for an AI she's such a tragic character but masterfully played by Laura Birn - bring on S3!
Would be great if Apple picked up Raised By Wolves
RIP RBW
Raised by Wolves was the single weirdest show I’ve ever seen. I loved it and I really wish they were still making it but I can see why it was cancelled. No way that show had broad appeal
I suppose I can understand that, my counter is that it's strange and annoying for them to cancel a show like that after developing it for two seasons when Scott had said he already had the ending mapped out. So many show runners these days pitch these shows with no thought to how the plot might conclude and Ridley said he had an ending. after disasters like what happened with GOT it curious to me why they wouldn't give a producer with as much acclaim as Ridley Scott the time to finish his story.@@stdesy
Raised by wolfs was great but I think this one is much better😊
The Gaal/Hari sequence on Ignus was absolutely BRILLIANT. Really well done and commendable for both Actors. The First Foundation intact and safe, The Second Foundation on course with great but unknown potential, Demerzel flailing and trying to hold things down as she awakens the replacement Empire Clones and looking to the radiant which is what Vault Hari surely wants and Dawn, that Kid - what a shocker! He FINALLY got away! I never would have guessed Little Baby Dawn could pull things off and outsmart Nanny Demerzel. WHAT is she going to do now? - there are TWO DAWNS!! Really excellent twist and set up for future conflict and uncharted territory, plot wise. Cannot wait until season 3!
Actually in S3 there will be only one Dawn, Day and Dusk... That Dawn, will die, and the Queen too... Their offspring will be around for sure, and i don´t know if there is going to be a tug of fight for the Empire Throne...
I think the Dawn storyline would end there, they could just live happy forever after. The story would skip a long period of time so they will all be long gone by then and replaced by the next next Cleon. Because the last scene that Demerzel let them go instead of hunting them down so they can resist by the way they told us, its a win win anyway.
Crucially, there is a schism in the Empire (which is pretty much as Asimov wrote it). And surely, Seldon would want Demerzel to know that, to know that this is how it has to be.
@@LordPaulusCobris I think in the next season cloud dominion will be a second imperial faction with day and seraph's line ruling.
@@fraserdowd6552 It might be... the Imperium slip into 2, and Cloud Dominium a part of it... The Foundations will be at full steam by then too...
Too many deaths of characters I loved.
Some moments were genuinely heartbreaking.
Bel Rios and Hober Mallow had me laughing and crying all at the same time.
Incredible actors!
Truly! I was bawling the entire time!
This is inevitable given each season is a hundred something years into the future. Most people will be dead by next season even if they don't die explicitly on screen. It is nice that they brought back some characters either as flashbacks or as illusions. For instance, most people that escaped from Terminus will be dead next season including Poly.
@@Uouttooo having read the books I understand the reasons why they have done what they have done from a narrative perspective for a TV show but The Mule.
For me it was such a big WTF moment that I'm gutted people will not get to experience that. However maybe it's not the actual Mule we are seeing as that character was not who we thought he was until the big reveal!!
I agree. Everyone being alive in the vault felt a little too “snowglobe-y” for me. Previously I felt the loss for everyone on terminus. And now, it’s sort of just all “magic and no consequences”
You get the feeling no one really dies and anyone can be brought back to life
People on the invictus died tho so it's not like he won
@@JohnnyMcMillan In this case though, and I haven't read the book(s?), so I may be way off, but I'm not seeing this as magic or anything like that. My thought is that it looked pretty massive in space, so there is actually a large vault out in space that the vault on Terminus was sort of a portal to. I do agree that it is playing with emotions, and this plus Seldon's fake death leaves me thinking of bad papers written in middle-school that ends with "then he woke up and it was all a dream".
Brother Day, Bel Riose, and Lady Demerzel really stole the show. Phenomenal acting. I’m at a loss for words. This season is far beyond my expectations. It’s at a whole different level. The writers, production team, actors, all deserve acclaim. Take all the time for season 3.
as how good these 3 are as bad Poly, Constant and Gall are
Bel Rosie’s romance was utterly unbelievable too. Bad writing.
@@greg9088 oh yes that is true, but that guy is so hot it compensates bad writing
@@colinafobe2152 Vapid.
Laura Birn deserves an Emmy, she was great!
The fight sequence with Bel Riose and Day was crazy!
This conflict also explains why Demerzel ripped off he face after killing Dawn in S1
The conflict there was already clear. If you watch the actress - mainly the actress throu the whole reasons she shows far far more than just in that scene. She already shows conflict of interests when other parts are happening. Even when the old dusk says something is wrong.
Demerzel from the books has been a favorite character of mine since forever and their endless mission, utterly devoted to humanity for 20,000 and compulsion to serve ignoring any selfish considerations, a clearly sentient being trapped by their programming was already compelling. But what this show has done with the character is a fucking masterpiece- they have taken a character who, by virtue of their longevity and programming, was already tragic, and amplified that tragedy and the introspection into what a being like that’s existence would look like. If there is any character that makes the case for us to limit AI development and god forbid, never try to establish Artificial General Intelligence and sentience, it’s Demerzel. Their fate is inescapably cruel regardless of what happens. Kudos to the show runners who continue asking these very Asimovian questions, Free Demerzel, and long live Daneel Olivaw.
I love how the director said in your interview….. the planet terminus was destroyed!! Lol he didn’t lie , he just didn’t tell us the people were saved!! This show is incredible!! All the death scenes were so epic! Salvor will return
So many thought that it was gone but he was not telling the truth and I was right the people lived!!!!!! 😊😊😊
@Sherlock245 it is gone but the foundation is the people not a place.
@@Ryan-zv3os that what i mean the people lived and everyone was so sure they all were gone cause of interview.
he even said everyone on terminus is dead.. this really cheapened the finale for me.. i find it sad a showrunner feels the need to go on podcasts and misdirect folks so that he can do the same cheap fake outs over and over and over.. i lost much respect for the show and its writers last night :/
"somehow the Foundation survived" moment for me
Lee pace gave a wonderful performance, all the actors on the show should be very proud, one of the best acting performances I’ve seen from everyone ,amazing job from everyone it felt like I was there , season 2 of foundation is an epic
It was a fun season and everything Demerzel was great in this final run of episodes. So much to think about and Season 3 can't get here fast enough. Let me know what you think.
Season 2 Finale Discussion with Showrunner David S. Goyer th-cam.com/video/jwqftbRhCSE/w-d-xo.html
Season 2 Wrap Up with Jim and A.Ron from Bald Move - th-cam.com/users/livezk6ziULdeVU?feature=share
Well, this just makes the strike all the more vexing. Anyhoo - don't really agree on the fake-out: the only question is whether it was earned (my bet was the null field being expanded and some visual showiness to make Poly's in ep2 look childish). I think it was set up, carefully in stages and thoroughly earned. To just kill the Foundation would have been such a break from the source as to be truly divisive, whereas this just leaves quibbling over writerly things, about which civilised people can disagree. Whedon once said you have to have a toll (hence Anya in Chosen), but the flip side of that is you have to have survivors too - because the story needs witnesses.
Also, it occurs to me that not being sure that what is in front of you really is absolutely critical to set up before Magnifico hoves into view...
irony, Day is told he's so predictable when Day told Harry his predictions were incorrect;-- Day told HRi his choices proof; a double irony. (it's really hard for me to come, and I am a victim of a violent crime punched in the head had to get surgery my redness I'm trying my best to communicate.
Super sad I don't know why I'm having such a hard time here commenting - bizarre. I am a victim of a violent crime and I was going to be arrested if I didn't rob charges and the day after emergency surgery from the attack. I had surgery on my Retina. I'm running punch. I don't know when I go to post the changes and from my phone I cannot delete or edit.
Pete - I am so glad you share my dissatisfaction with the magical vault rescue. I feel that they're making a mistake by making it effectively unlimited in its powers. How are we supposed to believe the stakes as they are presented in the next crisis? Also, I agree that they negated the tragic sacrifice of the populace of Terminus, particularly Sermak and Poly. But Glawen was really too much. What purpose can there be in bringing him back after Bel is gone?
I did love almost everything about the season and all of your wonderful commentary. Thanks for making the effort to bring it to us.
I hope Josiah had a proper ceremony. He was a sweet boy 😢
Adding: Watching Demerzel break emotionally was such a powerful moment for me. I’m so consumed by the complexity of her as a character.
Is he really dead? They never showed his burial.
@@ryankittle3431
If he's alive perhaps he really is The Mule.
He was an odd character.
When you get to work on a Friday and Pete's uploaded already...you know it's going to be a good day
@@BigDaddy-666 fight the system destroy the machine eat the rich
Can't wait for season 3, got the first 3 of 6 books gonna read them now while i wait for season 3. this series is up there with the expanse as the two best scifi we have gotten in the last 10 or more years.
Its so different to the books.
@@Sherlock245but still so good
There are 7 Foundation books, not 6.
And yes the storyline in Goyer’s show is NOT in Asimov’s books at all.
I’m a big fan of the books. I enjoy the show but I have trouble “stopping myself from expecting” to see Asimov’s storyline, characters, & scenes. The expectations interfere with what I see on screen too much.
I hope you enjoy the books and have less struggle separating the two.
The books are very different. But I’m sure you will still find the spirit of Asimov’s classic tale in both.
@@braxxian are the books this suspensful?? They don't have the 3 clones in the book????
This season was even much better then season 1... lets hope season 3 gonna be even better!
Disagree. I love them both equally.
All of the deaths of the beloved characters were heartbreaking and overall this season was just amazing! I'm looking forward to S3!!
An awesome season! The actress who plays Demerzel did a fantastic job!
Demerzel is going to be the one to watch. Her imperative that Empire _shall_ endure is now facing the brutal fact that Empire is _ordained_ to fall. How she reacts to to this inevitability and tries to fight against it, or seeks to find a loophole that allows for both will be interesting to see.
Asimov's works frequently delve into the problem of a robot given a edict that it both simultaneously _must_ do and _can't_ due to the laws governing it. So I won't be surprised to see the show draw answers from there.
Once Empire fails, Demerzel is free. Her directive is to protect the Empire and the Cleonic dynasty. When that is brought down by outside forces, despite her best programmed efforts, she will be released as she has nothing to protect or serve anymore.
Agree 100%.. the "Harry is alive" reveal was done right. Surprising.. but if you look back, it's kind of all there. Big kudos to the show! Usually big reveals like this are obvious or ludicrous.
But why would they bring him back with a body just to kill him again? What is the point of that?
I thought Zoie Palmer from Dark Matter was great as an android but Laura Birn as Demerzel is brilliant acting.
Very few shows give you full immersion and excitement to watch every week. This show is a gem.
When demerzel revealed the secrets she knew I figured that she spied on the guests through their dressing mirrors as she and Day did to Bel Riose and Glaywen when Bel was getting his hair cut.
14:01 something about Demerzel’s love for her Cleon reminds me of the two stars of “The Creation of the Humanoids” who eventually realize they are neither truly human nor truly synthetic beings. I’ve always suspected this was one of Asimov’s subtle plot twists that was revealed in the novels released after his death: that one can achieve salvation through love.
The last 3 episodes were absolute bangers. Great stuff, equally enjoyed the breakdowns and analyses from you, Pete.
Cheers!
Shocked and so happy that my favourite new character, Sareth, somehow managed to survive the season! Sad we probably won't see that actress again, but so curious to see what comes of their lineage and Cloud Dominion in 152 years.
Why won't we see her again?
@@AnniAdri-dq6om Next season is 152 years in the future, similar to how s2 was also a generational jump. So unless they clone her or put her to sleep it seems pretty unlikely we'll see her again sadly.
@@lila7663
@lila7663 Ah, right...152 years later.
Yet, it's possible, however, that they might choose to show and detail the story arc for Sareth and newly, truly-free-from-Empire's-grasp (hopefully) Brother Dawn, at beginning of season 3 - through flashbacks, at least, if nothing else. The cloning of Sareth is also possible (although that doesn't seem like a very Sareth-like thing to do). So, don't lose hope! I, myself, am a bit dismayed that we won't get Hober Mallow/Brother Constant, Bel Riose/Glawen Curr or any more Salvor Hardin (wasn't expecting her to die so soon). I was pretty satisfied with the ending, overall, though.
@@lila7663 I wouldn't be so sure. Remember that time worked differently in the Vault earlier in the season. So it's possible they also all jump 152 years into the future to the next crisis.
@@lila7663she'll likely be put to sleep. The ship they fled on has no jump capability so they probably will sleep
Brother Constants Hope joke was the best. I couldn’t stop cry laughing
Amazing season overall, I preferred ep 9 to the finale but it was still impressive and has set up Season 3 perfectly. This was hands down Lady Demerzels season and the actress was mesmerizing to watch here. The emotional conflict she grappled with against her inner turmoil and hatred for the situation Cleon 1 put her in was fascinating to watch. Hari definitely wanted her to take the radiant with her to Trantor, clearly that puts him front and center for what Empire will be up to. It was a little strange not to see bodies after Demerzel leaves Rue and Dawn in the prison, also she puts the electronic bars back on as she leaves, why would she need to do this if they are dead? Thank you again for your dedication and hard work bringing us your reviews and commentary each week Pete! Looking forward to more content while we wait for Season 3! I absolutely love this series!!!! 🤓👏👏👏
Well that was an misplacement for sure... they are really dead! And its inconsequencial because of the time jump to S3.
They dead
you late man gahdamn! Ive been suffering through emotionless unintelligible analysis of the episode for the last 12 hours.. finally real insight
Just have to say thank you for doing these videos every week Pete they really help digest the show, I come here straight after watching every episode. I hope you continue to cover this show until it ends your breakdowns and inside knowledge.
The Mule: "I saw her again. She visited me in a thousand dreams. Now she's here ... in our time ... at my throat. I have to find Gaal Dornick ... before she finds me. I have to destroy her ... even if I have to burn everything to do it." The Mule sounds scared (and angry at/hateful) of Gaal. Those "thousand dreams" (of Gaal) seem to be nightmares for the Mule. The Mule had those dreams before that scene, before he said "Now she's here ... in our time", before Gaal waking up in the Mule's time period. My guess is that the situation is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gaal wakes up from cryo-sleep from time to time to train the mentalics, help build the Second Foundation, and prepare for the Mule. During her waking time, Gaal projects her consciousness into the future to look for (information about) the Mule. The man who will become the Mule, who is also a strong telepath, passively detects Gaal's consciousness projections as dreams. The man who will become the Mule saw in his dreams that there is this person called Gaal and an organization called the Second Foundation that are preparing to fight him. This man then tried to gain as much power as he can and became the Mule in order to fight Gaal and her Second Foundation.
likely,
hence the whole thing about a if you have a bigdata model about predicting the future and have knowledge of it, you basically make those presictions come true...
buuut even without them a variation of the same events would have happened anyway.. the conclusionas are always inevitable, but the road to it might change
similar to how salvor died...
she died, but when gaal thought... bit like in Dune.. prescience shows a symbolic future, you still have to interpret them
Yep, just like Hober Mallow. They got the information from the future and in trying to figure out what the information meant, they made it happen. It's circular and self-fulfilling.
Interesting theory and twist!
I Hope thé show doesn’t do that. I want The Mule to have conquest motivations of his own, independent of Gaal.
I do not want a “Gaal -centric” story.
I genuinely cared about Demerzel. She’s a sentient being that is trapped to follow the orders of a long dead asshole. Looking forward to season 3.
I guess it is only Day she cannot hurt, and is that ANY iteration of Day? ..and Dusk was one of the Day's at some point, so would he not count?
@@tosvus Day is the Empire
I thought that how they saved everyone on Terminus was a lot better than a lot of people predicted with it being an illusion by the mentalics since their timeline was not the same as the others. Though, I'm guessing that vault Hari did some rearranging of particles and all the survivors are copies or something - which would explain why Constance's dad was not bleeding to death there on the vault ship.
That's what I was thinking. Are those actually the survivors or did he copy their minds to clone them?
it probably time passed on the vault and healed constance dad wounds
Given the disperse nature of the colony from the Vault and Glawen being more so, unless the vault has some form of (previously undisclosed) Teleport/transporter technology (other than castling ) I am with your thought that they are clones (although bit quick to have them full grown esp Glawen) or more likely "holograms" or some other trickery of the tesseract/vault storing their data.
My theory was everyone was castled/teleported away by foundation tech or spacers, but it was Hari and the ship. Still think it was via the castling technology.
@@GarethBowen Early in the season when Constance and others went in the Vault and Hari was saying how all the objects including food were just particles rearranged (“you taste great”). I assume it was more of this. We saw the ground cracking open and people falling into it so I don’t know another way they would have survived normally.
Now this is a show, with an amazing writing staff, they played the long game from episode one, the set up and pay off of seemingly random items and situations, like the casteling device, the mark on hobers which we all knew was something, but what? just flawless a great show a great season, made all the more better with Petes after show!
The actress that plays Demerzel stole the show
No hari, dawn and serrth stole it. Especially the clone and the Queen. Now the nation knows empire is a traitor to kill its own.
@@Sherlock245 Acting wise? not by a long shot.
@@alpacamale2909 performance is nothing compared to DESTINY! 😉😊🙃
I didn't think anyone could out perform Lee Pace in this show but you're right, she beat him this time.
Give her an Emmy. She carrying the show
I just can’t get past the Mentallics having lived on this planets for generations, they have weapons and incredible powers yet no handy first aid for Salvor bleeding out, no homes, no insight into craftsmanship - just living in dirty white rags amongst lava rock.
They're all under the control of Tellum and the reality is she was only looking out for herself the whole time. Not to mention since they're hiding they aren't going to other planets for trade so are limited to what's on the planet.
@@Ray03595 For sure but the production ‘cheaped out’ on giving the audience a rich background and it was constantly noticeable to me - irritating in fact.
Have you watched ‘The Wheel of Time’? This production is ‘Foundation’s antithesis. While ‘Foundation’ has a wonderful layered storyline, superlative writing, top tier casting etc…’The Wheel of Time’ is shockingly superior for costume and sets design and I mean - kills it. So, it can be done, should be done!
@@MAYK1NG I do watch that show and I understand what you mean now. Yea, the sets can feel quite small sometimes and more can be done to make some of the towns and cities more "lived in".
The question I have to ask: Is Demerezel a victim of Cleon's cruelty, or did a lifetime of her influence twist him?
Given that all of the Cleons end up being monsters even with her motherly influence, did we see the main inflection point when Cleon found her behind the painting?
The young actor playing Josiah has a bright future. He had a real presence about him, a wise beyond his years bearing to him.
Your reviews and explanation of Foundation episodes are one of the best. Most just recap the episode. I want to process what I saw in that episode. Not be told a recap of the episode.
Looking forward to finishing your talk with David for episode 9 and eagerly waiting for what will be said for episodes 10!
I thought that the big reveal would be that Cleon I would be vicariously living through his exponents as a digital copy, who could sometimes take over their bodies, just like Harry Seldon did, but without them noticing, Because they were carefully curated to be the same person essentially.
The biggest clue to this end to me was the big difference in the size of their memories. It was as if Cleon I had new memories added to him, which would, over the centuries made his memory file unusually large. And sometimes his holograms behaved as if they had a mind of their own, especially when dawn and dusk confronted his hologram, but got this mysterious answer about him knowing, and "it is all accounted for" etc.
I might be in the minority here but I thought Salvor was a badass and I’m going to miss her. Even the way she went out was badass, protecting her Mom.
I loved her character too. I guess I empathised.
Agreed! I prefer her character and also the actresses ability to Gael's
I loved her character and I'm so upset she's dead. I think it would have been so cool to explore her abilities next season. It sucks that a great season ended so terribly and make me less invested in Gaal's storyline over all. Made the whole season feel hollow.
She was a badass. People are just narrow.
Extremely glad she is gone lol.
I waited 18 year to open a 2004 Bordeax Wine. It went bad, and I could relate to the frustration.
"For all those who fight and ask why"
Dude, what a great line.
Thank you for your recaps of what has been an astounding 2 seasons.
(At some point my auto-play jumped me to watching season 2 before I finished season 1, and I thought it was just crazy time-jumping, so your recaps really pulled those threads together.)
The Foundation Season 2 finale I've been waiting for! I watched all your ads to support the channel... Thanks Pete! Great show!
For me, this season had its great moments and its wtf moments. Although I liked S1 better as whole, S2 gave us Demerzel and its complex dynamic relationship with Empire which I loved. Hope S3 comes back with proper writing and production that this show deserves!!
Best show on TV by far. Writing & acting are what counts, producers making good decisions putting budget on the screen. Need more ASAP.
I really liked the finale. It went in satisfying directions I wasn’t expecting. However, episode 9 was by far the very best episode of Foundation yet. The whole show is worth watching just to get to 9.
That was truly a FANTASTIC episode, finale and season!! Laura Birn was phenomenal in her performance!! Lee Pace was amazing again!! In the words of Day, “I FUCKING LOVE IT!” 🔥🔥
Such a moment!!
excellent season but finale not good...yes but how did the ship made from harrys body/mass house alll the living physical poeple inside..esp when they showed us explosions of planet...and ooh spacers wer actually in on it...expectatiosn siverted...wow...and oh hari didnt actually die and all the super mutants mutants esp the lady who is 1000 yrs old who can heart heart and brain waves couldnt tell they knew harry was saved OH BECUASE PRIME NUMBERS COUNTING doh i see!! amazing !!!
EASTER EGG!! When Constance is in the Cleaning Pod literally minutes from death as her air supply is about to run out she says a prayer to the Spirit "My eye's are the Spirits eyes and may they only see the future" and I kid you not, her EYES TURN GOLD!! Go ahead and flip to the prayer scene in the pod, anyone can watch it and this is a detail 99% of viewers are going to completely miss, but it definitely hints towards something supernatural or special about Constance. She was adopted and she never would reveal her real name.....who is SHE??? Her eyes are Gold color for just this scene and prayer but turn back to normal after the prayer finishes.
Maybe she is Fallom
A season that grew and grew. Much as I adored the first season this outshone it in every regard and I can’t wait to see where it takes us next.
Regardless of your analysis of the deceptions, I found the acting this season to be outstanding. Lee Pace raised his to a whole other level. I do hope Apple nominates him for an Emmy
I’m really glad they didn’t show the deaths of Dusk and Rue by the hands of Dermezel. God that would be so brutal. I really hope it was quick for them 😢
I imagine she's pretty efficient. Didn't seem like Dawn suffered in the S1 finale.
@@PetePeppers1 so, and I probably just missed this but..., I take it any current iteration of Day she has to protect, and nobody else?
Your perspective on agency and narrative devices in 'Foundation' is spot on. The characters' actions within the vast canvas of a galactic civilization are a bit of a deep dive into the complexities of choice versus determinism. And if they are part of a meticulously crafted history - who is doing the crafting? Consider, for instance, Hari Seldon's "gift" of the Prime Radiant to Demerzel. What a cool slip-in moment when Hari gifts a mathematical enchantment that could blunt the effectiveness of a chief antagonist! Call it the Trojan horse of inevitability. This brings me to the 'deus ex machina' elements you've noted in E10. Some outcomes are challenging, but don't they hint at the boundaries of inevitable individual human stories amidst the backdrop of inexorable history? I think David Goyer (and company) are doing a marvelous job - anxiously waiting for the next season.
Thank you for making this season's journey more entertaining!
This show is by far the best thing that's come out in years
That was satisfying, I have to retract my critique of last week's episode. Sad about Salvor..
Incredible TV, we haven't had in years - and is an example of the power we all possess (human beings) to tell great stories. It reminds me of the red wedding season of GOT a bit, when everyone piled aboard - I'm getting that same feeling like, we have a hit here folks. Character's with "Honour or belief" in hope, and living up that quality, giving their lives for a future good that means nothing to them right now really, was not only delightful to watch, but has some synchronicities with present day. Hobar and Bel, and Salvor's sacrifices were incredible inside the story arc, and incredible performances by the actors. Even Dusk's move, had some meaning beyond the obvious - he might have actually loved Dawn (or did she know that he did it, and that's why she turned her head - to bypass her programming but give Dawn some time to think). And WOW what a performance by Laura Birn, and the rest of the cast isn't far behind - Leah Harvey, Lou Llobell Lee Pace, Jarrid Harris, Bilton, Mann, Daniels, Smith, Laughland, Sencindiver, Shekoni, Foss(boy he's always good), Ghir (Poly), and the amazing Dimitri Leonidas. Bravo all. And Goyer and the team. Forget the all the weight, and take a bow give yourself a hug - you did good.
The robot empress survived the fleet destruction very narrowly ... I wonder if the whole thing with Cleon would have played the same way had she remained.
holy crap that was pure chance
Before leaving, she told Bel Riose that she expected something from him, and that's why she chose him; I think she wanted him to disobey Day and knew Day would then be in danger. She couldn't put him in danger directly, but tried to end his reign (his life) by seeking indirect ways to do it.
@@aaronia8092 ... I don't think she had a way of knowing how things were going to end, even if she stacked the deck, Cleon was too strong.
If the General would have disobeyed he would be dead ... The fleet destruction is what defeated Cleon.
@@luiousy7329 Nah, I reckon the spacers (possibly on a tip form Hari) warned her that if she stayed both she and Day would die, and that if she tried save him they would trigger early and Empire would fall. That is why she felt so able to dis Day - he was no longer the power, but a dead sperm walking.
Bro, just want to say you’re the best that does it. Hands-down, my favorite recaps and it’s all the shows that I watch coincidently. Keep it up.
One of the best SF tv shows. Loved the books 30+ years ago love this take also. Sure it is fifferent but for TV show it is great.
This show was and is so intriguing. The way it was written and the characters intertwining story lines are so gripping. It definitely kept me watching and trying to figure out what was going to happen next.
A must watch if you like a good sci-fi story that doesn't rely on blood or gore in an attempt to move the story etc. the little bit that's shown is all in good taste
Great season. Love it. One thing: What s this need to save everyone all the time? Didnt like all these "resurrections". They took away a lot of the individial stories and the emotions that came with them. Definelty an abused tool. But it was a great run. Thanks for you work! Always a pleasure to watch your videos to close up each eposides
Thanks for all the great breakdowns! This show is so much more enjoyable because of your contributions. Can’t wait for next season:)
Thank you❤
Demerzel is a cold blooded killer. Yet I have so much sympathy for her. She's operating on what, (according to her), is a kind of "logical necessity" (programming, duty, ...). Brother Day (Lee Pace) and Tellem were outstanding, as delicious villains. S2 is so much better than S1, because of the emotional complexity of all the characters. Foundation S2 has turned into one of the best recent TV Sci Fi around, though I suspect, not many people may know about it.
1 of the best seasons of TV I have ever seen . This show is gonna blow up . My own radiant says season 3 #'s are going to exponentially increase .
Dude this season was insane! So good
AMAZING PRODUCTION THESE PEOPLE MADE A MASTERPIECE...thank you all
The empire still can build _"slow ships"_ which do travel faster than light by quite a bit. According to the show, The Raven slow ship traveled 50,000 ly in 1,878 days (to Termnius).
So 50,000 ly / 1878 days = 26.62 ly / day
26.63 ly / 24 hours = 1.11 ly / hour
9,716 light days / day
233,191 light hours / hour
13.99m light minutes / minute
839.5m light seconds / second
839.5x million times the speed of light is actually faster than StarTrek warp factor 9.9, but slower than StarWars fastest ships. That will certainly slow empire down a lot but its only a matter of time before they replicate Foundation jump tech OR they figure out other warp speed methods.
...or they stagnate and find themselves unable to achieve any technological improvement because they are now so cut off from all the places that would participate in the science.
I'm guessing this somehow leads to the "Twenty agricultural worlds were a Galactic Empire!" quote from Second Foundation, where Neotrantor is the new capital, with a degenerate emperor descendant of Cleon (guessing this time it'll be the 3 clones but even more drifting from their original DNA/personalities)
Pete, Thanks for your recap and commentary - awesome! In the Vault, everyone from Trantor was looking up. Why?
Pete, your commentaries have become my go-to pairing for savoring this amazing show. And what a show. One of the many gifts of this adaptation is the way Asimov's vision has been so beautifully rendered; "humanizing" the bones of the novellas while keeping true to the ideas and ideals. I get that Ep. 10 may be have pulled out one too many "deus ex machinae" Aces from those Church of Science robes (unless Constance is meeting digitized versions of her people, a la Seldon?) Either way, I'd rather a few missteps brilliantly executed than dull visions accomplished at low bars. To all who crafted Series 2, you've made a thing of beauty; one which should age well (if only we humans can manage to do the same.) To Becky's arse!
Hat tip to everyone involved with this, this has become my favorite show this year.
This last episode was freaking amazing! Epic to the very end. Incredible season. Can't wait for Season 3.
Thanks for your videos Pete. Youve really enhanced my enjoyment of this season, which I thought was excellent overall
Best science-fiction show on television right now
The ultimate tragedy: Demerzel is forever a prisoner to empire. She is empire. Thus, she is forever a prisoner to herself.
Simultaneously ultimate antagonist and protagonist.
I’m wondering if all the saved people of Terminus are now just realistic constructs of the vault. They don’t have physical bodies but in a way are like the vault Hari.
Didn’t expected to be this good tbh. Great job, really
The thing with Glenn was so bad because it felt like it took forever to be resolved, especially since the episodes were dragging on until then. In this case, the matter was resolved in the very next episode and somehow fits with the whole rest of the season.
Yeah i didn't like the comparison either.
Glenn was a special character to the audience, terminus population is not (comparison would be perhaps Gaal/Salvor in relation to what he means as a core foundation of the show)
They did Glenn dirty by pretending to kill him on a stupid event, made it all dramatic, made us wait for 6 filler episodes, and revealed it was bullshit all along while we all knew it from the beginning and would just like to get it over with. Then they killed him at the end of the season on what seems to be a fuck you to the audience. This is geniunely when I lost interest in the show, it was just that bad.
This is "oh these people you probably don't care about that much ? Yeah, Seldon saved them all, it was actually the plan all along and you had no idea about it".
This is just not comparable dude. I don't get why you would even feel like it's the same.
Wonderful ending! Two fantastic episodes in a row. Can't wait for S3!
The final episode of this season was appreciated, in the sense that loose ends were tied up. I believe they did about as best a job as one can do with as many reveals were present, but that's a dangerous game to play when writing a show. Every reveal was logically explained, but misdirection is a debt that burdens the audience and we expect the writers and actors to pay off that debt. I believe The Vault is the only debt still left unpaid as every other reveal was paid for in the blood of loved characters. I do feel sated, so well done to the writers for executing the thoughtful torture of characters in keeping their goals immutable, but constantly mucking with their path.
This season was a blast and as a fan, I'm looking forward to what is coming up next!
This was a amazing season!!!! Kudos to the whole staff that worked on this project!!!
Amazing season, 10/10. The whole thing was fantastic but those last three episodes were fire. Many questions were answered but many still remain and new ones were added, I cannot wait to see were they go in season 3. P.S I hope in a future season we find out who destoryed the starbridge. Obviously it happened centuries ago and doesn't matter at this point in terms of the story, but I'd still like to find out who was the culprit.
Would be nuts if it was Demerzel but that would make sense
@@deezuschrist9794 to be honest demerzel is at the top of my list, even more so after the final few epsiodes. We learnt just how far she is programmed to go to protect the dynasty, nothing is of limits.
I frankly loved it.
It's not perfection, it has flaws sure, but it's by far the best show i've watched in a while. The character work is just great. I disliked both Salvor and Hober on introduction, but they grew on me and I legit felt bad for Salvor dying ( I was certain they would NEVER kill her ) and Hober grew to be my favorite character.
The portrayal of emperor and demerzel are so great and they play with the idea of the genetic dynasty so well, there's nothing like this out there.
On the matter of the "fakout", I truly didn't see it like this. I frankly thought they were all dead and that we would move on but somehow seldon rolled a natural 20 in deception, actually cared about them all and had planned this outcome from the getgo, and I felt happy that were not dead even though I didn't care that much about them to begin with.
It's been a while i've been truly enjoying a show, but this one has something special.
I felt a bit disappointed by the relationship between cleon the first and Demerzel. She's just forced to love him ( while he apparently genuinely loves her ). It still opens up a whole kind of new possibilities, the main one being that noone is actually in control of the empire, noone has actual freewill in the downfall of the empire, which is actually kind of a shame if you think about it.
I guess I imagined some sort of sacred love story, When Cleon the first was some unique kind of guy, a worthy emperor that would deserve that the only robot left in existence devotes itself to him. That the robot itself was certain it was doing the right things for the right reasons. Meh, missed opportunity I guess. Doesn't take away from what we got.
That being said; Alongside with "For all Mankind" which is its own kind of special thing, I feel like AppleTV might be onto the right path.
My deep appreciation for the writers for this season. Those last 3 episodes were epic and elevated the show to another level!
Also you're one of the few out there that breakdown those shows, like noone actually appreciates them ? But you do , so nice
Bel Riose - exceptional acting
I love the fact you know the Bald Move guys. Excellent commentary, just like yours, Pete!
What an ending for that season.
Excellent recap and analysis as always Pete.
Am I reading too much into the weird stare that Thalis (blonde mentallic girl w neck tattoo) was giving her friends during the funeral pyre scene? Perhaps Tellem jumped into her from the dying Josiah?
Also, listening to the final Foundation podcast, it was worrying to hear David Goyer use the word *if* when mentioning a season 3 .... we need *at least *4 more seasons!
I noticed that too. They cut to her several times when it didn’t seem called for.
I will admit, I felt a bit betrayed when they revealed Paulie in the vault. Showing him in the previous episode just seconds from being swallowed up by the cracking ground, then showing him alive and well inside the vault is just too much. I don't really mind the idea of saving everyone in the vault, but that felt like a very cheap, underhanded way to go about it.
I really do hope they revisit how that was possible in season 3. I could forgive it if they were to reveal that the vault has the ability to instantly transport people over long distances or something similar. But this would open up a new trap that I think they are already in danger of falling into: That the vault itself is just too overpowered. If it can survive such powerful destruction, and do such amazing things, then why not just build a fleet of vaults, conquer Empire, and be done with it?
Still, overall, I am loving this series. Some of the best sci-fi I have seen in a very LONG time.
I was fine with Paulie surviving because he was close to the vault and could have been taken in from that distance but then then everyone showing up was too cheap.
As much as I dreaded the idea that everyone had died it was also something that gave me a conflicted feeling of having to sacrifice for the greater good.
That’s because the foundations job isn’t to defeat empire; empire is going to fall irregardless. Foundations job is to ensure that the aftermath of the fall doesn’t destroy humanity.
For me it was the fact that at the "church" Day ordered everyone killed and scientist taken but somehow everyone was still on the vault . At least some scientist should be on the ship with Day .
@@mariar3767 Very good point! I had this thought as well the other day. I assume the few scientists that happened to be in the church that day were taken to the ship and died along with Day and everyone else?? We really don't know, and I doubt they will ever reveal it. In the grand scheme I supposed it doesn't really matter, as I seriously doubt every scientist on the planet was in the church that day...
Excellent summary. Really helpful. Thank you.
Demerazel isn’t a normal robot I think she’s evolved and she has a soul that’s what Lady Halima said in Season 1. That’s how I think the Robots were able to break the rules of Robotics. I think Kale is also a Robot like demerazel but she’s hiding on Una’s world and the new Harry is like her too!
But if the new Harry is a robot, wouldn't Gaal be able to tell? Can they psychic link with a robot?
I think that's unlikely. She's just an advanced robot