Foundation: Crucifying A Masterwork
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ธ.ค. 2022
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A deep-dive into Apple's Foundation, an adaptation of Isaac Asimov's book series. Why did this take so long?
3:46: The Pilot
10:15: The Second Pilot
19:53: The Detour
27:26: The Good One
37:31: Twisty Plots
40:57: The Schlock Plot
51:40: The Chosen One
55:36: Hari Ex Machina
1:03:36: The End of Eternity
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I never watched the show, but I have read the books. Seeing that first clip where she goes “Harry said the entire galaxy can pivot around the actions of a single individual” shattered me. How can you possibly get the core of the story absolutely backwards? The idea that individuals aren’t important is what makes the foundation series unique in fiction
Well, it's an American production. Hinging on Ayn Randian ubermensch individualistic heroes is basically a requirement.
And that totally fits with how I see her when she says that. She looks exactly like a 13 year old excited and wide eyed about life and its mysteries only instead of adults molding her naive passion into adult discipline she's celebrated as a "leader" and her visions "give her strength" and her beta-tough-guy boyfriend who has no identity of his own is always "there for her" and counseling her with "you can do this" and illogical mindless commitments of following her to the death...for no reason I can mine out of this mess.
It feels like a young zoomer wrote the character, with a message that young people are really smart, have no need for "wisdom that comes with age" or "disciplined critical thinking" that just slows down the resolution, after all, old people are just scared and protective of change, and the youth are full of great ideas no one has ever thought of before and are ready to save the world and change the universe for all mankind!
So...that her character would fabulously miss the core point of an older white gentleman's point about the lack of individuality changing the outcome and instead elevating herself as the pivot point to save the entire galaxy, is entirely consistent with the shallow boring unchecked naive narcissism her character presents.
Did it "shatter" you? Why do people say this so much
@@johnlennon6790 Well said. Couldn't agree more after watching 5 episodes. And fast forwarding through bad dialogue at times.
The mule plotline does show how a unique individual can change certain factors, but that mainly comes down to his ability to control everyone. The mule does lose in the end to the Second Foundation.
lee pace carried the whole show. i would have rather it just been about him. i found myself waiting for the next cleon scene while the other plot lines were going
Me too. I skipped a lot of scenes to be honest. Especially the childish love scenes.
The worst scenes in the show were the “you’re the chosen one savlor. You’re special you just need to have faith in Jesus!”
Scenes.
The Mary Sue -isms of these characters are simply off the charts as well. Like what salvor can literally guess 9 coin flips in a row because of her plot armor; and can fly a spaceship without training by following her feels? And a genderswapped cultist on a primitivist planet with no formal math training can solve a mathematical paradox which has puzzled humanity for ages because she’s the messiah?
Ughh. It’s like a Pure Flix movie.
Brother Dawn, and Brother Day made the show.
especially that scene where he assassinated half a village worth of people with the flick of a finger... that delivery was insanely good. The scene is just two people talking but it's horrifying. Pace is utter perfection.
Lee Pace is just amazing as Brother Day.
Absolutely incredible. I’m gripped whenever he is on screen.
Only good part of the show
He WAS 'Halt and Catch Fire'. He is...a Star.
The three emperors was the only enjoyable part of the show.
Lee Pace is just amazing. (Halt And Catch Fire was great too)
An issue that I have is that Asimov portrays the Empire as crumbling infrastructure - he explains that their ships are slow and have to be far away from a planet to commence a jump just because their technology hasn't developed. Later on Foundation invents spaceships that can jump even when close to planets - they are small and their engines are in the walls of the ships if I recall correctly. When the reader progresses in the stories you get this contrast between how rudimental Empire's technology was and how advanced Foundation has become. Since this series starts off with a powerful Empire possessing the greatest technologies, the writers won't be able to accomplish the same Empire-Foundation contrast down the series.
I only watched two episodes of the TV show. As I recall from the books, the Empire's technology gradually declined because capable people could make a better living in politics than in technical fields, and because of the disruptions caused by rebellions and civil war.
The Foundation, in contrast, was designed by Seldon as a reflection of the Empire at its height, a technically oriented meritocracy forced to look outward due to a lack of resources at home. Starting at the same tech level, the two diverged as the Empire devolved and the Foundation's technology improved.
I also see that the idea that the Foundation's cover story was that it is working on a galactic encyclopedia, to record all that was known, and therefore save it, is not in the series.
@@Folker46590 It's just more cultural vandalism. I'll re-read the books if I want more Foundation. I'll pass on the series.
Not quite. Yes, the later Foundation ships were technologically superior to the Empire's at its height, but that was hundreds of years later - the fact the Foundation had better technology in the future does not mean the Empire was "backward". In the first Foundation book the Empire was at a very high level of technology, but had stagnated, and as time went by in the first book we saw the outlying territories abandon nuclear power, but the Empire's technology was still strong. By the time of Foundation and Empire, in the story of "The General", we see the technology of the Empire itself in decline, with their older ships being far superior to the newer ones.
they are literally arguing about what to save in committee in the 2nd or 3rd episode on Terminus... er the foundation planet?@@Folker46590
Interestingly enough, the brother Dawn plot line was so close to nailing Asimov's general theme of system regression. If the "imperfections" of brother Dawn's clone were caused by the technology malfunctioning and the empire no longer having the know-how to fix it, this story would serve to a nice juxtaposition to the rise of the Foundation.
Yeah, the "oh, the rebels did it" aspect of the story line was... cliche, and really kneecapped it, imo. And then they killed him off... I'm still pissed off at that.
@@fisheyenomiko I have to say though, the punishment Brother Day meted out to the rebel girl is hands down the most evil thing I have ever seen a villain of any story do.
@@jimh472 "Crucifixion is too good for you..."
/Monty Python
@@jimh472 in the show ? what episode ?
@@dobrintzvetkovsky7719 Very close to the end, when the conspiracy is discovered. Episode 9 or 10 maybe.
I was definitely more interested in the Empire than anything else in the show. I really love the actors portraying Cleon.
It’s so weird how this show hired mostly unknown actors for almost everyone, but then picked an exceptionally talented Juilliard-trained actor to play the most interesting character in the show. All it does it highlight even more the vast difference in quality from the empire storyline and all the other ones.
Read "Ancillary Justice", it is Nebula's prized novel that introduced the idea of cloned emperors. Great sci-fi that deserves an adaptation.
The drama revolving around the 3 emperors kept me coming back after I completely checked out from the Terminus storylines. It's wild how the show had this amazing new tangent that's completely original but failed at adapting the existing material that's already there.
That was the only strong story, and the best characters. Although they "leaked" Demerzel's secret identity quite early, it still is intriguing, a robot with faith, and an emperor without any. Hopefully, they fix the Salvor Hardin story, although they did royally screw it with that trite, cliche cliffhanger.
They are clowns when compared to how they are in the books.
Lee Pace as Brother Day is THE thing that made the show for me although the actors that play brothers Dawn and Dusk are amazing but Lee Pace is just *chefs kiss*
Harry S. was also great at first, but the moment he stepped out of the Vault it went downhill. The entire point of foundation was that individuals don't matter, and they not only make it all revolve around individual actions, but he himself becomes one of those individuals ...when he himself said how irrelevant individual actions are...jesus god...why so much promise so much money spent for this mediocrity.
I was shocked at how much I like the genetic dynasty story line considering it has nothing in common with the book story. And yet, I think this arc actually encapsulates the “feeling” of the novels more so than anything else in the show outside of the pilot episode!
dunno about the books,i hear this is adapted very losely,but i enjoy the empire stuff the most
@@deenman23 so loosely that is has very little in common with the books. The show is a different story set in Asimov's Foundation universe.
Congratulations. You have won "Stupidest Comment on the Entire Internet" award for 2023. If you think this hackneyed, Telemundo soap opera in any way captures the "feel" of Asimov's great work, you 1) never read Foundation, or 2) have some sort of cognitive issue that you need to get checked out IMMDIATELY.
Yes, it the genetic dynasty rubs the stagnation of the empire right in your face - and provides a way to have recurring characters in a story unfolding over many generations, which - whether we like it or not - is how TV series work.
Only because the actor is absolutely amazing. Anything would have worked, heck it could have worked even better if they gave him smarter dialogue instead of directing him towards a cartoon villain.
The best sci-fi bit of the series was the idea that Lee Pace could be cloned indefinitely.
MORE naked Lee Pace please
I think it might have been not the best sci-fi - but it is definitely a very compelling addition. Alone the implications (...) are incredible. But I think, that the attack on the purity of the genetic material was a bit lazy (and “watcher-service). It would have been cooler, if the genetic material would just organically degrade (like the bloodlines of inbreeding royals).
@@Dominikmj Thing is; if you are so advanced, then a bit of genetic drift won't be a big issue at all. Also, they have the original Cleon in the freezer to make clones off of. And it stands to reason that they have a perfect digital copy of the DNA.
The writers should have gone all-in on the Emperor being truly immortal to make him an adversary that, in a story that (supposedly) spans thousands of years, cannot be waited out and must be dealt with directly. But instead we got some cheap drama, because one of them was color blind and in love or something. And in the latest episodes, Day is trying to find a queen to make babies with. Boring, ordinary, predictable fantasy stuff.
i just fast forward through the young black actors bits and its way less annoying
They cant act and i don't understand why they pick people that cant act
He's an average white guy who works out imo, no grit
I'd easily watch a show that only focuses on Empire. They're easily the highlight of the entire series.
Yeah, The Mule was an amazing character.
One thing that always nagged at me (and I wrote into head my own cannon) was it never addressing his background/ rise.
My head canon is that when Raych's ship is presumably destroyed, Wanda survives and grows up to have children, and that leads to The Mule eventually.
Psychohistory wasn't about individuals. That's where the plot was lost. As Hari said, there's nothing new in cloning, its stale.
Agreed - they are phenomenal
@@fungames24 Wasn't it Trevize who said that?
@@agentoranj5858 I don't think so. There was no cloning in the foundation story. The TV show lost the plot.
9:17 I love how, since he's a clone, Brother Day doesn't have a belly button when you see him shirtless.
One technological advance in "Foundation" that Asimov was proud of was a hand held device that Seldon used to help with his calculations.Yes, Asimov predicted pocket calculators!
I felt in their enthusiasm to update the technology is Asimov's very 50's sci-fi future, the writers never stopped to think too hard about how it affected the story. If mind copying and AI exist, why bother with imperial clones? Indeed, why bother with a Seldon Vault at all? The genius of Seldon was always the audacity to hope to predict the future accurately enough that you could send VHS tapes to the future and still be smug in them when they got there. If you can upload your brain to a computer and still exist in a few centuries time then psychohistory is hardly as useful or impressive. It undercuts one of the book's core themes.
You're right in what you say here. There is a total lack of thought of consequences here in the pursuit of just getting from A to B similar to what is actually in Foundation, and I think they knew they could do this because most people watching wouldn't have read the source material. Even when watching the episodes of the show I kept getting an image of a group of people say around a table throwing ideas out as to how to contrive what actually happens being to fulfill a tick box of criteria.
I think the biggest strike isn't necessarily the inclusion, it's how it fucked up the reveals. Like, the Mule comes into the story at just the right time to shatter the notions the reader has about the universe, as the characters say, because he both has technology that Psychohistory did not account for, and his ability to compulsively change human behavior to go against self-interest, the entire groundwork of PH. But that only works because of the expected pattern the reader is expecting.
Narratively, it makes more sense to splash these elements there, when we're already dealing with the concept. Yes, robots invented psychohistory, but it's not something to tell everyone until the story is ready for it. Much like if you remade star wars it would be really dumb for Obi-Wan to say "oh your father's now Darth Vader."
and really, "Robots invented psychohistory and mind powers" was such a bad move Asimov never moved the story past it, so maybe don't feel forced to commit to it right away xD
The entire show undercuts all of the books themes, and I appreciate you making a post about one aspect. The imperial cloning was the only interesting plot line of the entire mess of the show. I am glad I DIDN'T watch it with my wife, or she would have got a bad impression of the novels.
Well, in the foundation universe AI was discarded because it made humanity stall.
@@jal051 Exactly. R. Daneel Olivaw/Eto Demerzel made sure to suppress inconvenient technological and social advances (which, funnily enough, is part of the reason why the empire ossified into failure). Sticking to many of the tech restraints of the novels is vital to Demerzel's overall plan.
Normally I only agree with about half of the points in "Just Write" videos, but this one is 100% on point. They took one of the most famous and beloved Sci-Fi book series, stripped off some superficial features and threw the rest away. I don't think I'm being cynical in saying that Hollywood is just using the source material as a recognizable name to try and hook fans while making a generic sci-fi action series to appeal to "normies".
And all they ended up doing was alienating the fans and showing how stupid the normies are for accepting this bullshit.
Could not agree more with your statement: "Hollywood is just using the source material as a recognizable name to try and hook fans while making a generic sci-fi action series to appeal to "normies".
I began reading Foundation, age 7, in 1960 and all the others very soon afterwards and as they came out. Asimov kicked off a love of SF and other great authors i.e. Clarke, Bradbury, Herbert and Heinlein that in my opinion has never been equalled by current SF writers over the 40 years. But far worse, as your very relevant point makes clear is really a literary rape of such SF masterpieces in such crass and Hollywood rubbish with emphasis on the success, fame and knowledge of the name of the book, Such as the absolute sacrilege done on Starship Troopers which ideology and philosophy concepts is the main point of the book as oppose the star or stars, violence, monsters and special effects the film was.
Yeah, true. The trend is to identify quality as brand, then swap out the original content.
I’m probably going to be in the minority on this so don’t hate on me please. I reallyyyyyyy enjoyed Foundation. I’d consider myself a pretty die hard sci-fi fan and really enjoy crazy concepts being executed well. Foundation was beyond perfect in this way, imo. I agree the story was lackluster in some areas but everything involving Empire was truly next level to me. How can you say it’s a show for Normies? I’ve tried to get some friends into it and I feel like its concepts go right over their heads
@@braukwood925 I believe those concepts go over their head because, as the video explains, there are too many of them and they are thrown together rather incompetently. Also, certain sci-fi aspects are dealt with in a way that maybe would have been acceptable 20 or 30 years ago, but today? it is implied that advanced ships can jump to hyperspace but others are not as hi-tech and they have to what, crawl to their destinations at sub-light speeds? But they still get there in a few years? In Asimov's book you either crossed light-years through hyperspace or you travelled interplanetary distances with a few different propulsion systems, which he described. It was simple and beautiful, and as scientifically accurate as it could be. How can anyone adapting Asimov, no less, go all inaccurate with this stuff, and even push religious ideas that would have him spinning in his grave like a gyroscope as a bonus? Can you see why people who grew up with those books are a little annoyed?
The biggest gripe I have with the series (still enjoying it though) - is the technology of the vault. It's such a huge deus ex machina. It's like Hari not only created Psychohistory, but also come up with such an overpowered technology that somehow the Empire didn't find out about. And it basically can do anything the plot needs it to do - as it then does at the last episoded of season 2.
You are on the edge of a spoiler. If you haven't read the books. But good eye.
@@josemolina7715 Some people want it all explained in one season.
@@josemolina7715 Fourth dimension?
The hype about the old battleship was also terrible. The ship was so frigging useless and weak.
All the story parts about the female chars was so god awful. Only Demerzel carried her role to absolut perfection, the rest was so stupid and boring.
Well I guess that one side character that seduced one of the younger Clions was also a superb if short performance.
true! Like the floating space vault. Like how many mexicans did Harry have to pay under the table to make that damn thing without it showing up on the books?
Thoroughly agreed on all points.
I was disappointed but not surprised since the trailers showed Salvor "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Hardin with a massive gun...
Still impressive how thoroughly they abandoned the original material.
I've read the books. I didn't even tired to watch this garbage
You mean the Salvor Hardin who said this? "Listen, we have to fight with guns, not with words... It's all very well to drag chancellors into this, but it would be much nicer to drag a few great big siege guns fitted for beautiful nuclear bombs into it."
Asimov's Foundation has as many renderings as it has readers. It was a marvellous set of ideas, written quickly, without much forward planning, and retconned like fury many times over. I love those books and they mean a lot to me. But I've never laboured under a delusion that they are filmable as written.
I don't think everything worked with the series, but I enjoy it very much so far and I think it does (mostly) what needs to be done to keep the story fresh and working on screen.
I also don't know if Foundation will last 8 seasons, but I'd definitely watch 8 seasons of Lee Pace.
Agree. I just didn't like any of the other actors. They were so plain or just awful in delivering lines or facial expressions(does Warden have any other besides stern with brow furrowed?) and/or the writers wrote horrible characters. My brain was only relieved when Lee was on-screen and that is when it seemed like a real show. I've liked him since Pushing Daisies.
@@savagefist1029 Such range the fella has.
Lee Pace is hot as fuck.
Huge fan since Hobbit
after watching The Fall, I'll watch anything with Lee Pace.
I read Foundation (every book that ties in) before I watched this show. I watched the Expanse before reading the books. One of these is a perfect example of how to adapt a book, the other is a perfect example how not to adapt a book.
I have yet to read The Expanse novels but already know that series is far closer to the source material than Foundation... way closer!
The intermittent crushing on Lee Pace is hilarious 😂
Man has been crushable since Wonderfalls.
"it dilutes the idea that populations can be predictable when there are all these(new) factors adding unpredictability" In that one line you destroy the logic of the show and the misunderstanding of the writers about something THEY should be experts in. But they couldn't miss the mark any more. They used an IP to make their own BS and undermine the original story. Bravo Goyer and crew, you did it once more.
God I loved the Genetic Dynasty plotlines. Yes, the rest of the plotlines lacked. But for me, it was soooo worth it for the Genetic Dynasty stuff.
Yes the imperial cloning plotline is so intriguing whoever came up with it struck gold
This is the most intriguing part of the show to me with the character(s) being both monstrous and sympathetic. Can a Hitler be redeemed if it's a Hitler clone that was raised by Hitler?
They should have cut everything else and just focused on that. Just political intrigue and all that jazz. Would have been epic
Same for me
@@hummakavula3750short answer: no you have to completely dismantle the oppressive system (by any means necessary) otherwise the cycle of violence will continue.
Long answer: za bookz
The JJ school of writing, which is characterized by an obsession with mystery boxes and often features characters having knowledge that they wouldn't actually have just because the audience or the writer knows it. It's all so very tiresome and I don't know why it's so common over the last decade. It's not like these people work for cheap or anything, either.
But "Bad Robot" (JJ Abrams) is everywhere...
@@GermanOlle Exactly
It’s common because it’s easily understandable to executives and it’s made a lot of money in the past.
Its a shortcut to writing a script. No need to complicate things by figuring out how to show certain things, reveal certain things. Don't waste time with a silly story when you can just fast forward to the next plot tentpole. It also, in a very silly way, makes the audience feel smart, because they almost can't miss anything important. It's the junk food of story writing. All filler, maximum cheap enjoyment specifically engineered to release endorphines for the widest possible audience. It's Doritos and Coke.
@@matthewbowen5841 Speak for yourself on that, I guess. To me, it's a nice steak that's been grilled to a crisp and covered in ketchup. Whatever goodness might have been there to start is completely indiscernible in the state it ended up in and it just makes me angry to even see it, let alone be expected to swallow it. Or if you insist it's fast food, it's a Big Mac that's just had all the individual pieces chucked into the bag, not even piled on top of one another, let alone in the correct order. It doesn't even fulfill the bare minimum requirements for what it's supposed to be.
25:34 is the root of the problem. The studio immediately jumped back to the hero's journey template, which Foundation never fit and is almost the opposite of
BBC Radio produced a radio series, or a trilogy as originally planned, under the title "Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation", which intrigued me as a teenager.
I became an avid listener, but life got in the way and I missed several episodes, and was unable to pick it back up.
This was the 70's, so no streaming services, no BBC Sounds, no Audible. Couldn't even record it on tape ☹
i wonder if thats archived somewhere. sounds interesting!
Western media has trouble telling or coming up with stories that don't revolve around the actions of "main characters" driving the plot and outcomes. This was part of what made the early seasons of Game of Thrones so unique and popular - there was still a character focus, but the drivers of conflict were the great houses themselves and the conflict would have happened regardless of the particular individuals present. Deaths were unpredictable and often shocking because that's how it is in real life. Being an important figure or believing you have some meaningful role to play doesn't imply you are any more immune to death than anyone else, and it's telling how unusual it is to have this realistically portrayed in any media. I do think Asimov's idea understates the impact that the occasional great figure does have on history, as a Genghis Khan or great reformer in the right place at the right time can realistically change the fate of a civilization, or at least nudge it in a direction that would have it looking unrecognizable to any prediction engine in a few decades let alone centuries. But these individuals are never acting alone, and they are the exception rather than the rule. I sometimes wonder if Hollywood has trouble grasping the premise of individually hyper-capable "heroes" being less relatable than people dying for mundane reasons because it grates at some subconscious level on the egos of the people writing and producing the story.
This guy said "western media" hahahaha
For me, the worst crime of the Foundation series was that they turned a story that was a very strong plea for pacifist solutions into typical western war propaganda. "Hey, let's build some warships and destroy the Empire. Because that's what scientists do." And maybe I'm alone with this interpretation but to me it felt like the show was implying at the end that Seldon was directly complicit in the attacks on the space-lift. Which would be horrible on a whole other level.
That is a good point. This is what happens when the money people go shopping for book titles to adapt (that one made a lot of money, let's adapt it) rather than allowing the art and desire for good stories shape the decisions.
you're not alone. they completely reversed the core messages of the books
Kind of the opposite of Starship Troopers where the book is more pro-militarism while the movie is a satire of militarism
"Crime" LMFAO calm down Norma Rae
Keperik.
Certainly hope he wasn't.
Maybe it was Zeroth - law robots.
I read this trilogy about 50 years ago and i was like a disciple, so i was excited to see it appear on Apple TV.
Then i tried to watch it.
There was some cool stuff to start, but then it seemed to get lost, and i felt that watching it was just like wandering down the endless hallways of that giant building when the emperor guy lived.
I go from this story to getting lost wandering down featureless cavernous stone corridors (was there a guy painting a crazy mural on the wall or did i just dream that?), lost in the maze, thinking, "how do i get back to the story, to something interesting?"
I come across a room occasionally, with people in it discussing the dynastic succession, and it is boring so i think, "is there still an interesting story for me to find somewhere in all this?"
I started getting that feeling where you don't know if you're awake or if you're in a dream that you can't consciously control.
Maybe i should just stop watching streaming content for awhile, but can i? How do i do that?
I eventually woke up in the room of some bland, tacky little suburban American house thinking, "I'm not really sure i want to go back there again."
As I drive over potholes in the road that never get repaired or schools collapsing due to poor construction that weve known about for a decade it makes me think of bulbs in the Trantor domes twinking out and not being fixed due to a lack of specialists and cash.
Hoo boy. Just finished watching Season 2 and I can't wait for you to cover it. It's... one of the series of all time.
Any book-accurate Foundation series is doomed to fail so long as the industry believes that all stories have to be character-centric. Foundation is world-centric by its very concept, so keeping characters in the story long enough for the audience to get invested in them can't happen without messing with the story.
A book-accurate adaptation would need to follow the "short story" structure of the original, with a new setting and new characters each season, or even every few episodes, as the world advances in jumps of several decades or centuries at a time. I think it could work, but great effort would need to be taken to get the audience invested in the advancement of the Foundation as a whole, rather than the fate of individual characters. Possibly tie it all together with flashback scenes of the Life and Times of Hari Seldon to provide a consistent "human" element to the story.
Early GOT worked because it was an excellent interplay between complex characters and a new fantasy world that the audience wasn't familiar with. Brush up the character writing and Foundation could be the same.
The problem with many modern productions is not whether they are character or world oriented, but that small minded people try to make the world smaller to make their characters look bigger. You can see it in ROP, the starwars sequels, and foundation. The result is usually fanfic level character writing and practically everything interesting being removed from the world.
It could definitely work & Game Of Thrones proved that characters can get killed off, but the story still moves along. They could add new story points. One possiblity I thought might work was that after The Foundation got big enough, it might split into smaller, fractured realms each competing against the other, with each one claiming to be the "real" Foundation.
@@marcello234 The problem with Foundation being turned into a show is not necessarily of characters getting killed off, but because of the huge timespans in which the books take place. Killing off a character, so long as it's done in a way that makes sense and matters in the context of the plot, characterizations, etc., creates both suspense and action, as well as consequences.
But in the Foundation stories, very few people actually get killed off 'on screen' as it were: because of the nature of the short stories on which the Foundation novel was based, there's very little connecting the vastly different times in which the stories take place since they hurtle through the Empire and Foundation's 1000-year history by skipping hundreds and hundreds of years, during which time all the characters from the previous story have been dead for centuries, and likely long forgotten except as a footnote in Galactic Wikipedia. ;P
It's the timescale and timespans being dealt with in the Foundation stories that makes it impracticable to translating to a show very easily, because of that lack of continuity between stories (except for Hari Seldon's pre-recorded predictions at the end), and the fact that audiences generally become attached to characters, not to a 1000-year plan.
@@marcello234 In Game of Thrones, GR Martin deals with the problem of the death of important characters by having LOTS of them, so that there are still plenty to root for, even after mass deaths in events like the Red Wedding. Some might still see this as a problem for the series, and it probably led to headaches and conflicts with the show-runners, who correctly figured that viewers would never be able to keep track of them all. (Its easier in the books).
Foundation doesn't even have that luxury, except by inventing a whole lot of new characters. Resulting in more cries of 'fanfiction' from loyal readers.
Long story short TV adaptation of Foundation would work with structure similiar to Walking With Dinosaurs.
Yea i watched the first one and a half episodes, and was like "Yea this aint Foundation. This is badly written Dune Fanfic that calls itself Foundation."
Dune and Foundation touches on many of the same points, but have drasticly different approaches and draws drasticly different conclusions.
I like how you gave the show a fair shot. When I hear someone say they read the books first with any content, I automatically think it’s going to be a hit piece.
It is such a relief to hear such a thorough and eloquent explanation of what I unconsciously sensed while trying to watch Foundation. I’m either fast asleep or like WHAAAAAT??? Like, I couldn’t tell you what it’s even about. Thanks to the ones like you who patiently have filtered out the noise and sorted through the convoluted plots and offer a video like this so I can go ‘Oh, it’s not just me’. Thank you!
You didn't like something and having somebody else shit on it made you feel like you were a part of the group again. That is some pretty basic BS. All we are doing here is rehashing the same old trope of "whatever media form I consumed first is better." This isn't a surprise and you aren't special for thinking this way because literally almost every single person pulls this same routine. At best you are boringly predictable.
I was the same way. I watched season 1 and forgot almost all of it immediately. I think the writers are counting on that, though, because if you could remember the whole thing you'd see the emperor was naked. Er, metaphorically speaking.
If it wasn’t for the other “science as religion” subtexts, I feel that the plot arc with Brother Day walking the Spiral works pretty well on its own because it’s a hint at the later reveal that he no longer is in sync with his bloodline and develops his character as a counterbalance to Demerzel, who is trying to develop an identity separate from her programming. They also do a really good job at hiding his intentions until the reveal, and then hit you with the second reveal. The scene where he kneels to help the old man, when no one else is present, shows that his monologue in episode 10 where he talks about not having compassion for the individual is just a facade. Lee Pace is just so good in this!
Those sort of themes remind me of old school Star Trek TNG, wish the rest of the arcs were that interesting.
Eto Demrzel is not a her. It's a robot that usual adopts a male persona and was that as Cleon I's Prime Minister, succeeded by Hari Seldon. That's also what it was first created as: Robot Daneel Olivaw on Solaria over 20000 years earlier. Daneel has chosen to portray female persona most notably Empress Ruellis in 2000 Imperial in which she froze Imperial technology and set up the caste system to stave off the Empire collapsing to Chaos. Daneel has long since outgrown its programming. It leads a group of robots following the Zeroeth Law, made telepathic by Robot Giskard Robot Relentlov constructed by the same Solarian as made Daneel. Relentlov caused the great exodus from earth by creating a ring of orbital satellites that raised the natural radiation level of Earth until it reached dangerous levels.
Daneel created a million people experiment that produced Hari Seldon. Daneel already followed a primitive form of psychohistory created by his human friend Elijah Bailey At the same time as the Seldon plan started, Daneel started Gaia a hive mind planet of telepaths. The Mule came from Gaia. Gaia then decided the second foundation was a threat to it and sought to take it over becoming the main game in town rather than the back up. That's as far as the Foundation (and Empire) books have got. What the series that is only loosely connected to the work Asimov and those who have continued his universe does, is anybody's guess.
@@tscchope *Reventlov.
Also, it didn't quite feel that the series' Demerzel/Olivaw *_had_* a zeroth law, either they didn't know about it or chose to not include it or chose to have it way too subtle. But that's only part of the persona, the overall idea seems to still be there, even if not some of the details. That they chose to go into the "soul" direction towards Bicentennial Man is merely a way to add (sub-)plots to the story.
Also, all the later details you included couldn't yet have happened in the series timeline, they still _might_ (Poly is a major hint) so they're basically a potential spoiler for future seasons. :-|
@@irrelevant_noob Daneel started Gaia with Mentalics from Trantor at the same time as Seldon started his Foundations. A backup, Daneel called Gaia. Since mentalics were taken from Trantor, it's not a spoiler to believe they might not want to be the backup at some point down the line. It's not outside the realm of possibility to believe that said Mentalics will engineer a test for the Foundations, at some point.
Future seasons? Oh no, enough is enough.
@@irrelevant_noob In the TV series, Demerzel is programmed to defend Cleon. No Zeroth law, rather a Cleon Law. Very different from the books.
@tscchope Such a weird detail to single out that has almost nothing to do with the rest of what he said, and then the rest of your comment is just a plot synopsis of the books. Are you a bot?
So basically, David S Goyer turns yet another franchise that he has no business having his fingers in into more melodramatic violence porn, gets the themes completely backwards, and spends tons of time setting up future plot details that aren't relevant yet and may not even get closure before the series is cancelled. Who keeps putting him in charge of big franchises?
Dis, it's curious: years ago i ve read an interview of him talking about how scripts are modified heavily by productions and investors, and the problem would be writers are credited even after large amount of changes ---> and i was "ok cool, maybe he got the jobe because of real meritocracy and not something else, and movies like man of steel s*cks because of that problem"
And now a new bad writing comes along, and it s*cks AND GUESS WHO WROTE THAT 🤣
So now we have 3 options:
1) D. S. Goyer is good at writing but very bad at soft skills and can't stand bosses modding wills;
2) D. S. Goyer is bad at writing but very good at soft skills and still manages to obtain the jobs
3) He has lots of friends in the industry so f*ck ppl who knows writing and hire him again to kill great concepts
@@LucaResto Akiva Goldsman is a similar case, but his skill seems to be at reducing any difficult or truly creative aspects of a franchise into audience friendly gruel - and he seems to get hired repeatedly because of this skill, even though it's led to any number of failed movie projects.
The people who know that he's the real reason Batman Begins was as good as it was, he's the one who's kept Nolan's "realism" obsession in check. But modern Hollywood revolves around Director Worship, so the Director gets all credit when something succeeds and the writer is only maybe acknowledged if it's perceived to have failed.
@@Kuudere-Kun How do you know was because of him and not Nolan's brother? Goyer wrote story based upon pre exsisting material, Nolan s brother is involved in the screen play of Dark Knight and that 's the though part i think
@@LucaResto Because every source I remember on this was specifically about Goyer, he was a form writer of Comics brought in specifically for this purpose.
You may have wanted to see an adaptation, but what you actually meant was an ACCURATE adaptation. So few of us want to see a Hollywood adaptation.
Why would you want to see mediocrity?
In the same way, I want to see the Rama series done, but I already know that it just...would be inherently disappointing
Dune fans eating good.
@@yellowcard8100lmao came here after watching the movie, since i prefer Foundation over Dune and im just jealous, seems im not the only one
"It's a little more JJ Abrams than Gene Roddenberry" - I like what you did there.👍
I agree with most of your points. It was nice getting to know the Galactic Empire, which plays little to no role in the original trilogy, if I recall correctly; and the emperor clones were a great idea. Adaptations don't need to be literal, all they have to do is capture the same themes explored in the source material, and they failed at that.
I'm surprised you didnt see it turning out like this
The Emperor and Gaal Dormick play a role in the prequel books.
@@dogwoodwoodcraft lmao
The Empire "Remnants" are incredibly important in Foundation and Empire. But the Empire only gets real depth in the prequels, Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation
Thank you for writing this. I read the books once forty years ago and as soon as I heard about this series I wondered "are they going to be able to make this about groups of people or are they going to make it about individuals doing the heroic thing to save the day". Too bad.
Well, we do get Daneel Olivaw in the foundation. So it is kinda a “one person planned everything to save the day” story.
@@yucol5661 a long-lived robot becomes a population unto itself.
@@tonoornottono exactly; like all the very best of Asimov's work, it's about examining the fascinating ways in which the *axioms* relied upon by the apparently simple, reliable theory (Three Laws, Psychohistory) can break down - and in the Foundation saga, the axioms are clearly stated pretty early on, so you get a fair chance to spot the breakdowns before the protagonists do (so he didn't quite do a Sherlock Holmes, because Conan Doyle *cheated* when he wrote those stories by never actually giving the reader the necessary information to solve the case before Holmes does, presumably because that would ruin the image of Holmes being an unmatchable genius). Psychohistory needs huge numbers of *normal* human beings, who are themselves *unaware* of psychohistory (so they don't end up trying to game the system, which would become a recursive, incalculable nightmare), to be the *only* driving force in society - mutants, robots, the exposure of the Second Foundation, etc, would all cause the system to become unpredictable.
I think the real highlight and "winner" per-se, if there is such a thing, is the fact that we got more Lee Pace content! Not only that, but I would definitely say his section of the season and he, himself, were definitely the best parts of the show so far. The visuals were also all really well done...except for Terminus...everything on that planet looks horrible, and it really feels like it got handled by the 2nd AD/2nd Team on a far away offsite location. I also think the actors/characters in that act of the season was by far the worst. Especially the "Star Wars: you are the chosen(special) one" cringe with the main protagonist. Definitely felt like we were getting the battle of the two Girl Boss' for the future of all mankind!
Either way, I thought there was a lot of potential in the show, and actually quite a bit I actually enjoyed about it, but it was definitely a let down that they completely sidelined the main themes of the story. Although, we got some good Lee Pace! lol.
I'm still waiting for the day when someone actually tries to adapt a Vonnegut book into a movie/show that has an actual budget. I'd say it's even less likely than Asimov, but probably on par.
There used to be a time when I hoped my favorite books would get adapted into a movie or a series.
After seeing the modern adaptations I now hope for the exact opposite.
Silo is next......
hope they didn't ruin it. I haven't seen it yet
@@tHeWasTeDYouTh they ruined it...kidding, its not bad
You hope your favorite movies and TV shows get published as books?
That is weird, man.
@@tHeWasTeDYouTh Silo was well adapted. Miracles happen.
@@jal051I am going to check it out then.
One of the things that struck me, as I watched laser gun fight after laser gun fight, was that at the end of one episode, the goodies were wondering what to do about the overwhelming invasion of their planet, and in the next episode loads of 'stuff happened', and they were still wondering what to do about the invasion,; in the next episode more stuff happened, including that someone died, sad face, and everyone was left wondering what to do about the invasion, and so in the next episode, they went to space, stole a spaceship, in the next episode they got the spaceship under control, and then at the end of that episode, they were back on the planet again, wondering what to do about the overwhelming invasion of their planet. Several episodes had passed, loads of 'stuff' that was 'exciting' had happened, but nothing had actually changed. And only after that did someone say 'hey guys, let's work together and be friends', which was all anyone needed to do in the first place, at least according to the book, which is one of the greatest of all sci fi books. So there were several really tedious episodes of boring 'excitement' that added nothing at all.
I wish writers would stop trying to make their work so 'exciting', because it's so fucking boring to watch.
At this point I wish writers would stop writing altogether and be replaced by an entire new breed of writers
@@reezlaw - The old school writers have indeed been replaced. And the newbies, with zero life experience, are writing the biggest heap of drivel you can imagine. Hence you have studios like Disney churning out flop after flop (seven in a row at last count). And you have ‘masterpieces’ like Rings of Power, which was about as interesting as watching golf.
Then, add to that the "laser gun fights" were pretty dumb at that. Looked like they chose to film episode 5's attack like Star Wars: Book of Boba Fett and tried to pretend like 100 fighters invading a small cobble of building block looking housing structures with about 30 people being guarded by 5 could look like a....battle?
I'm watching "battle" scenes of them fighting, and I'm trying to figure out who all they're even fighting. There's like 5 of them on one side, 100 on the other, so that's like 20 to 1 and yet they're only fighting one at a time - where did they all go? "Innocent" people running nonsensically back and forth, much shoving in war apparently...the Greta Thundburg looking soldier-chick tells the kids to run and does next to nothing to fight back...
If you watch to the left and right of what they want you to see on the screen, you see terrible action by extras trying to look like they're doing something and they more closely resemble drunk monkeys looking for the remote control.
At some point Hardin's boyfriend (makes no sense either) fights "through" the cobble to get somewhere, for no apparent reason, maybe he was trying to get to the fridge to get a beer? Anyways, suddenly he can punch and shove and work his way through those 100+ invaders and they apparently just let him go on..."ah, he's going somewhere, let him go, we have remote controls to find" - after several minutes we still have "town folk" pretending to be pillaged...how long does it take to run to a Lego building block house and hide?
I'm sorry..but you spend millions on spacey space effects and next to nothing on filming humans in scenes. Trying to make a set of building blocks look like a city, and 30+ people look like a town. It's just sad, and stupid, and unnecessary. Everything felt big and important..until that pathetic display of a "battle". And we didn't even need one. Who was blown away by this sad action sequence?
It's always bad when people look like they're wearing costumes, instead of clothes. Only 2 of these plot lines are interesting, and other 2 look like Game of Thrones season 5 on Dorne. Just atrocious sets, direction, action, everything is completely unbelievable and feels like a high school rehearsal.
You nailed it mate lmfaooo
@@sirrathersplendid4825
Rings of Power was a cringe fest.
But House of the Dragon was effing genius.
I also like how they cast one of the families in the story as black with silver dreadlocks. Highlighting the drama of the succession conflict of the story and making it easy for the viewer to keep track of who is biologically related to whom. It was a critique of modern Hollywood’s diversity casting which is arbitrary and often confusing. House of the dragon showed how racially altering the source material can actually be used to enhance a storyline and provide visual clarity and add aesthetic appeal to the piece.
The show very much missed the whole point of the books, but I think what hurt it most was calling it "Foundation", which meant they had to carry over ideas and characters from the books that hobbled the story the writers were more interested in telling.
considering we're talking about about David Goyer, keeping the name and making it reactionary seems to be the point.
The guy is like mirror universe Paul Verhoeven
I watched this before watching the show, wanting to wait for the 2 seasons to be complete before paying for AppleTV. Read the books and loved them. Watched the series and having fun so far. The hoops they jump through to keep characters around are annoying, but as the video mentions a lot, Hollywood sucks at stories not centered around characters, Foundation was never going to be changing that, it would either cave partially or not exist. The clone idea is probably the most amazing addition to an existing lore that I've ever seen. It keeps the actor around and helps explain the decay of the empire with stale ideas and leadership. So far I'm looking forward to how the genetic dynasty and the Demerzel storyline progresses, along with the Foundation and Seldon Crises and the Mule in the background.
The books are still around and perfectly readable, whatever they had to say is still available. A faithful adaptation is nice, but kinda not necessary and wouldn't get funding in the magnitude the show does. The clone idea is a good enough addition to justify an adaptation I think, at least it's what is keeping me interested. it's neat to have a new way to get familiar with that material. How many 80 years old (!) books without new representation find new public frequently?
It's funny and ironic to see so many people in the comments treat the books and the series with so much tribalism. Obviously people enjoying the show are uneducated idiots too lazy to read the books, or wouldn't understand them anyway. Everyone seems to see themselves as the enlightened genius like Seldon in those sorts of story, not as one of the quadrillions of tribal people Seldon realized were so rigid and predictable he could math them out 30 000 years in the future.
The Empire's story has kept me watching this show.
You saw more of Emperor Cleon in half the first episode than you was in all the books, he was basically an off stage character in the book.
Lee Pace deserves the screen time
@@MaxIronsThird But the character doesn't. Lee Pace should have been cast as Salvor Hardin.
@@azdgariarada nah
@@MaxIronsThird yah
@@azdgariaradanah
If there is at least one thing I can take away from this, it's that Thranduil and Ronan the Destroyer were played by the same guy and I never noticed and still struggle to see the resemblance, which just goes to show how heavy that make-up was.
Season 2 started me hopeful, and had me shattered. Also, I really don't get why the Mule is foreshadowed that much. Part of the charme of him was how weirdly unobvious he was. It feels like a needless spoiler that I can only expect to be a huge disappointment.
I can't decide what i hated more, robots killing people or Harding having magical powers. The later is probably the most offensive, in the book he was smart and cunning and was able to reason his way out of problems. In the show she's aided by coin flipping future powers so I guess no real intelligence is needed.
Well the first one might indeed be more excusable: Demerzel might've _had_ the Zeroth Law even though they never bothered to explain it... As for the prescience idea they seemed to have mashed Second Foundation with the Dune universe. 😵
It's very hard for the writers to write smart and sharp content, especially with television deadlines. Asimov had as much time as he needed to plan out story arcs.
@@noname7271 it’s impossible to pander and write good story. I guess they choose option A.
@@irrelevant_noobEven with the zero law a robot must still face consequences of a three laws contradiction. To sum up he will always choose a non-violent option to harm a human beings rather than simply killing it. that's why the mule stayed alive it was r.Daneel who was behind the second foundation
It was very strange that someone would buy rights to a book series which was structurally unfilmable. It would have been a bold move if they actually stuck to source material and took the risk with timeskip and new actors each time.
If you're just going to write your own stuff, why not just develop a new story altogether. I'm sure there are so many good scripts out there
Exactly! Also with the characters you want. Why change so much from something they say they love so much?
>If you're going to write your own stuff...
>why not make something new
The question we always end up asking. The writers' strikes (and history of Hollywood pushing out the writers after the 1990s) and the abysmal residuals tells the story: They aren't willing to pay for talent to write coherent, masterful stories or dialougue. They just low-bid contract effects houses and have hackjob producers and producers' nephews to bang out an incoherent script that cashes in on IP name recognition, but without understanding what made the original thing work, or, more generally, not even possess basic competency within the genre or its subject matter. Cause idiots will eat it up anyway and not care about the difference.
I think the main problem is the ego of the writers/producers. In this day and age everyone thinks they are unique and the main character, so they need to insert themselves in the story. Their beliefs, their moral views, etc. Had his happened in the early 2000s we wouldn't have LoTR as we know it now, but the story of some weird character that somehow relates to Frodo but doesn't want to go to Mordor or some BS. Only time will settle this trend and we'll be able to laugh at these adapatations that use the brand as an excuse. And Foundation is miles ahead of The Witcher, for instance.
But you can´t drove huge audience to screen without putting familiar text as the title!
You speak truth. Dune suffered the same problem.@@siddspain
The fact that the show tells so many disconnected small stories with so many characters that are portrayed as full people only to never be seen again once the seen ends was something I found particularly interesting about this show. It's not actually good, but it evoked in me the process that is usually reserved for books, where the majority of the events happens in your mind. In books, this usually means that you imagine the visuals and acoustics, the world everything takes place in, and in the show, this refers to the lives of all these characters and plot lines. I don't actually know if this was intentional, and I recognize that it's far away from how the medium of movies/television (usually) works, but it is something that worked for me as a unique feature of this show that I'm remembering. All of these vignettes were representational of the larger society, which is just way harder to present in the movie/TV medium than it is in books where you can spend pages or even chapters entirely in narration, which just doesn't work on screen, so instead you do slices of life that serve as examples for how the larger thing works.
This is particularly apparent to me with the Emperor(s) storyline(s) - despite switching between ages or to entirely different people several times, the character traits of the specific age points of Dawn, Day and Dusk are still always coherent, which is only possible because the structure in which these people/clones exist makes them have these traits and be the way that they are. Any difference in behaviour is always the result of a shift in structure in some way (even if carried out by individuals), so once again representational.
I think all of us would love a season 2 follow up.
I have not read the books, however i might do so, because just like expanse, i have a feeling that this will go nowhere.
As for my initial thoughts.. When season 2 dropped i picked it up and the cool intro made me remember everything that was important. I was just so damn confused about this whole salvo plot(even forgot she existed tbh) and her mother and all this time skips. I remember harry, the foundation, empire, but all this Hollywood mess about guns go pew pew was just so insignificant that I forgot all about it. I seriously think that they should've just went with the story of empire, it would've given the writers more creative freedom, while carrying the only plotline that people seem to like.
Expanse had a similar problem, they went nowhere with the protomolecule and thas pisses me off big time. I really dont care for salvo or her Gale, the foundation is a great idea but it could be a plot tool. As for empire its a great concept, one that seems to interest fans and with the amount of money they can throw at it it comes off as actually believeable.
As someone who has never read any of the books and went into the show completely blind, you pretty much nailed my experience. Everything outside of the Cleon story was boring/confusing and the Salvor part was the worst, she was basically Michael Burnham 2.0.
I couldn't agree more, but as someone who read the books a while ago, from what I remember there wasn't much about Cleon, he was just an emperor of a crumbling empire, just a concept, a name check. I get that translating this into the TV show needed to put more flesh on the bones so to speak, but in all honesty if the Trantor/Cleon part had been a bit weird or crazy and the rest more true to the concepts in the books I'd have been happier. Thinking back to when I watched this series what I remember now of it is the Cleons and the parts of the plot and the Emperors and not much else, which isn't what the whole story is about.
I think they really needed someone who had read and loved Asimov's work, someone akin to what Peter Jackson was to Lord of the Rings, rather than someone involved with superhero movies, maybe there isn't anyone in Hollywood at the moment who fits this bill, but this is why I don't think it works, those in charge on the show has boxes to tick, characters to create, and needed to loosely create a story to get from A to B whilst keeping to the story told (but not caring about the underlying narratives or important points, especially where they didn't fit in with modern TV, creating a sci-fi Game of Thrones, which would have needed the author there to make sure it was being done right).
i haven't read the books as well, and cleon is indeed the character that stands out in the show. his storyline propels the show. i like the actor they chose who invented psychohistory, but this show wouldn't have any meat without the cleon storyline.
Burnham 2.0: best comment ever!
I knew there would be a Racist, and here you are!!
@@stardaggerrihannsu2363 that must be sarcasm lol
I resonate with just about everything you said. SO many technologies included for what seems like little more than convenience. The ONLY compelling story was Dawn’s story. It’s just such a shame that they couldn’t have had more focus. Like, what are they trying to say with all of these different threads? How are they connected. It seems like they aren’t. Also, why don’t they understand the source material? Did they not really want to do this? Why can’t Hollywood find people who care about the art they are making?
On a somewhat related note, Disney’s Andor seems to succeed in virtually all of the places Foundation fails. Surprising but true.
I agree. They really needed someone who had read the books growing up, someone who loved the books, understood the concepts, some like Peter Jackson was to the Lord of the Rings. You are right that the only compelling story was the Dawn Cleon story, but having been someone who read the books as a teenager in the 80s/90s this wasn't what I came to this series wanting to watch. I'd have much more enjoyed a well written with about the founding of the Foundation, with the story back on Trantor being convoluted. The whole series seemed to more about the religious aspect of the Emperors, even belief in Harry Seldom rather than the concept of psychohistory, which is the whole premise the books are written about. It makes me wonder if they even read the books of whether they just were informed of the main plot points.
@@mattpotter8725 That is the exact comparison I had in mind. The more and more time passes, I am amazed that Jackson's LOTR happened...you wouldn't think it'd be that hard to monetize love for an IP these days but I guess it is?
No one ever actually cares about the source material in 90% of these adaptations / reboots. The content platforms want more content as fast as possible. They don’t actually care about how good something is. As long as they cut a trailer that looks good, ppl will have to at least sign up for the free trial to see the first couple of episodes. They generally have the same % of users that convert to the paid subscription vs opting out. For those that opt out, the platforms don’t see that as a “a specific show wasn’t good enough” problem.
@@t.k.1319 If no one cares why have it associated at all. I suspect they do want to pull in those who know the source material otherwise they wouldn't pay for the rights and just hype it as something exciting and new. You can't tell me people who watched the Game of Thrones TV series weren't heavily invested from the source material. By going half way you just alternate part of the viewership it costs nothing to attract in the first place. I could understand your argument if this was a Netflix or Disney+ show, but Apple needed to differentiate themselves, they won't win against these other platforms doing exactly the same thing. I only worked up for Apple because of this show and haven't subscribed since.
@@t.k.1319 fair enough but Foundation is a strange example. They basically did zero promotion of it. I happened upon it and was like “what? Really?” and then watched it. They are somewhat aware of the fact that it’s a steaming pile, for the most part, no? It was a waste. I get what you’re saying but everyone wants to be the next GoT they just don’t seem to be willing to put the right people in the right places-or are unable!
Phenomenal essay! I'd watched the 1st season of Foundation and just now with the 2nd season I have decided to listen to all the Foundation audio books and the impression is that series only touches on the Isaac Asimov's world, points of which you have explained perfectly!
i really enjoyed this show and am looking forward to season 3.. Never read the books, but plan on doing so just to see where it divulges.
My only exposure to the show is this video, but it’s fascinating how even the basic parts of Foundation have been thrown out. My favorite part of the Seldon hologram at the end of each crisis is that Hari Seldon actually has no idea what actually happened; the messages are prerecorded. So his explanations are both specific and vague at the same time. “You were faced with a stronger kingdom and had to use Balance of Power to survive.” He doesn’t know that the kingdom that came out ahead was Anacreon; he just knows that the periphery will have one strong player by this point in history.
It's worse than merely being thrown out. It very much felt while watching this show like they (the production team) had a deep understanding of the Foundation series, yet deliberately chose to go in the opposite direction of fundamental philosophical views from the books, every chance they got.
The opening of this video highlights a key example of this, where Salvor says Hari claims an individual is important. The books repeatedly stressed the opposite.
In the show they made this elaborate deal about hyperspace travel being a dangerous and difficult processes. The books repeatedly stressed the opposite.
The concept of robots is casually brought up, one character talking to another, despite the books making a huge deal of the idea that (almost) nobody knows about robots in the empire. The reason why they don't becomes the entire basis for one of the sequel novels.
Then there are the endless superficial pointless changes which I feel were meant to simply irritate book fans... 35 years later in the show (it's 50 years in the book). Terminus has some scary deadly beast (it's an utterly lifeless rock in the book, and there's a reason why). And, ugh... so many more, but I've got to end this comment .
@@azdgariarada Well said. /agree
I watched about one episode this show and stand by my original critique: This show wants to be Dune so badly it's in physical pain.
And I don't mean it wanted to be the next Dune, I mean everyone who worked on it seemingly is intensely creatively frustrated that they had to work on Foundation and not Dune, so they just tried to make it as aesthetically Dune as possible. And so, of course, i doesn't work at all, because Issac Asimov's Foundation series is about a series of extremely nebbish men with pocket protectors and giant calculators saving the world through the inevitability of external forces. It's great to modernize the story had they, say, adde a bunch of nebbish women or enbies with pocket protectors and giant calculators - but they needed to have the damn pocket protectors and giant calculators.
And everything that doesn't work about this show as ad adaptation - i.e. everything - all extends from that original problem that the creative team doesn't seem to want to be doing what they're doing because they seem uninterested in anything about it.
Christ I'd forgotten how desaturated Man of Steel is. Man that movie hates colour,
2:27 I don't have watched this show, but I believe this is Hardin. Nothing could be more far from reality of book . Hardin is extremely cold, intelligent, systematic. Never dramatic or emotional.
I listen to Bear McCreary everyday, and Foundation OST 1& 2 are stuck at the top of my most played. Especially "Dream of Cleon the 1st" + "Brother Constant"
Modern day writers, whenever get their hands on an excellent source material, are hell bent to prove they are greater than the original author. The results are there for all to see.
Is that so? What a shame....
So how does one get Americans to relate to a story that spans eons without Characters?
Two completely different kinds of writing - screenplay vs novel. They did ok striking a balance between honoring the source material and making it palatable for subscribers, some of whom are unfamiliar with Foundation.
That being said, I thought they could have cut some fat as several subplots were overdeveloped, IMO.
the novel is a trash story
I think there just may be too many writer's inputs into the scripts
What I found interesting was the interpersonal dynamics of the emperors and how their personalities were always different. At first I took it for granted that they were identical in all things but age, so that every Day was the same, every Dusk, and every Dawn. After the succession in Ep 3 I thought the same dynamic would be replicated, ie, the new Day would be as aggressive as the old one, and the new Dusk would seek to restrain him.
But then it’s clear in Ep 4 that Dusk is still the hothead we’d seen when he was Day, and Day, who’d been a scared little boy as Dawn, condemns Dusk’s actions now that he’s come into his maturity and has precedence. And of course Day rejects Dusk’s advice not to leave Trantor specifically because he distrusts Dusk’s judgment. You can already tell they’re different people who disagree long before they come to blows in the throne room.
Day’s pilgrimage is the high point of the entire season but there’s one way it could have been significantly improved. You recapped it as Day doesn’t get a vision and so fakes one. But as the episode airs it’s not clear this is what happened. He seems sincere in recounting his vision. Only Halima doesn’t buy it and plants the seeds of doubt in Demerzel. She later asks him about it privately and he sticks to his story, she remains skeptical and leaves with that “I wouldn’t wish that emptiness on anyone” line, and only then is it confirmed that Day made it up. I think leaving it ambiguous would have made for a much stronger ending to that story.
Everything that didn’t have an emperor in it was so boring that my only thought was, I hope we get back to the emperors soon. The show would be no worse if you replaced Terminus, the _Invictus,_ the Vault and all the rest with title cards that said INTERMISSION.
Eventually I got to thinking: There are countless sci fi concepts that, even though one writer pioneered them, are essentially free for anyone to use. No one’s going to accuse you of ripping off HG Wells if you tell a time travel story, or Doc Smith if you use FTL starships. Psychohistory has never really made that jump, but there’s no reason it can’t.
Given that the people making this show have no interest in faithfully adapting Asimov, and that the most original storylines are the best, why not make an original story about cloned emperors trying to stop the wheel of time from spinning in the face of a challenge from a Seldonesque figure, but without borrowing from Asimov at all?
Intermission 😂😂😂😂
Kind of a rip off of Orphan Black, but Lee plays each one with subtle differences. Which is why it is so fun to watch him.
I’d love an answer to the question from a professional Hollywood perspective. Is it easier to sell a project if you slap the name of a semi famous author’s work and say “well, all the nerds will watch it, at minimum and we’ll add battles for the normies?”
@@fredericmari8871 The name Foundation means nothing to “normies,” who at most might remember seeing it on a shelf in their middle school’s library or something. And people who do care about Foundation will be turned off by the disrespect the series shows the source material.
Anecdotally, I can tell you that every Asimov fan I know fell into one of two groups: Those who had stopped watching within a couple weeks, and those like me who stuck around exclusively for the emperors.
Saying you’re making a series that features psychohistory would have been enough to bring in Asimov fans, and you’d have kept them all because the half who gave up after realizing it wasn’t Foundation would not have felt that a promise had been broken.
As for “putting in battles for the normies,” I’m saying leave all that out. Scrub the show of its schlock elements and focus exclusively on palace intrigue and psychodrama. Sci fi fans have gotten wise and no longer ooh and ahh because you programmed a computer to make it look like a tower fell over.
The problem with 'psychohistory' is that it's not really feasible as a story-telling mechanism, because it robs individuals of agency and importance, which is the antithesis of how most dramatic story-telling works, which is as much about characters, character arcs that change and grow along with the advancements in plot (and the interplay between the characters and what they do/what happens to them via the plot), and 'psychohistory' basically states that the individual _doesn't_ matter, no matter how noble or kind or great they are: it's about being the right person/people at the right time. Which I understand on a historical level, but it doesn't make for compelling viewing as a show.
I think there is a way to do it, and I do think in that respect, the Foundation books actually do do that, by showing that although much of what Seldon has preordained via these advanced maths, 'psychohistory' is ultimately based on probabilities that can't predict everything or in any great detail, and it's up to individuals living during any given 'Seldon crisis' where multiple crises converge at once (as is happening iRL now), to do the 'correct' thing as Seldon predicted, but still leaves room for agency of individuals, for people's inherent goodness and resourcefulness to win out, even when events stray from Seldon's plan.
When I saw the ship jump for the first time, I was just mindblown. It was so fantastic looking, and the idea of creating a BLACK HOLE to jump is chef's kiss.
Dude that's nothing new, Halo 2 did that on screen in 2004.
finished season 2, and I can say I love this series so far, even if it's not perfect at all.
Love season 2. I just skip the boring Gaal and Salvor scenes.
Me too! While watching it I definitely had some gripes but overall I found the concepts fascinating. I agree that the Empire plotlines are the most interesting.
Hahaha as someone who hasn't read the books, watching this made me realize that I only really like the trantor plotlines and gaal's story at the beginning of the series. I also wanna push back at the interpretation as Day's story line condemning him for being a man without faith. To me, Demerzel and even Zephyr calls cleon empty because he doesn't stand for anything substantial, nothing real. Everything he does is in service of protecting his own power, and upholding his own narcissistic mythology.
He has no family, friends, or community. The system the cleonic dynasty has created won't even allow them to be their own person beyond their roles as the emperor, they won't even allow themselves to have deeper emotional connections to the women they sleep with for fear of espionage or assassination. It's a great metaphor for the empire as a whole, outwardly powerful and rich but ultimately empty inside
Try and read the first 3 books. They are very small short stories written in 40thies/50thies. It's fun to see why these 3 pocket books became classics .It has these funny 50thies vibes . Like people smoking and having' nuclear ashtrays' that vaporize cigarette buds,....because Asimov didn't know cigarettes caused cancer, so the future people also don't know this. Atom energy being the energy source behind everything , because it was the new big thing. But he also predicted personal computers, so that's rather unexpected . At the end of the day it's the way he wrote this simple yet epic story that made it into the classic it's today.
That is funny because Demerzel herself, ironically, only exists to keep the status quo of the Empire, to the point of killing a human being! which by Asimov's own rules should be impossible if not to prevent a direct threat to the whole human race, and even then at a considerable price for the robot's brain
Omfg, the finale was The Great Divide all along
avatar hari disappeared when humanity needed him the most D:
I never forgave the show for openly mocking the line "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" in Season 1, then raising it from the dead in Season 2 only to solve everything through violence anyway.
Just finished season 2... because I'm a masochist. My soul cried.
Yeah I lost all hope for this show within the first 5 minutes of the first episode of season 2. It was like they were actively trying to insult everything that was good about the story.
I love the series but I’ve never read the books
Asimov would be so upset. @@troyadams19
It saddens me that Marvel (post Phase I), Trump, and this show have fan bases.@@angelgjr1999
The first two episodes were absolutely horrendous action shlock with a weird sexual tension between a mother and daughter inexplicably… but the rest was about the same quality as the first season, and I think they stand alright as pretty good sci-fi separate from the original material. You’re not gonna get any better with the same production value in the current hollywood climate, I’ll say it that way.
I have read the foundation series and the one thing I loved about the books was seeing how much Asimov's writing style changed and matured when he wrote the final book. The last book was written many years after the original stories. The first part was some of his earliest work which first appeared in a Sci/fi magazine he helped publish. Seeing how much his style had changed how much he had learned about writing over the years before he wrote the last one made the last book the best.
He never helped publish the magazine the original stories appeared in. It was owned during this period by a company Street and Smith, who were a very successful publisher until TV came along
This video captures a lot of how I felt watching the Wheel of Time adaptation. A better author has a complex thematic story they tell? Nah, we know better, let's replace the core with whatever we care about.
I had same feeling with Netflix Witcher.
@@petrfedor1851same for Witcher and Wheel of time for me. And foundation. The original story is solid. But these shows just turned it into woke shows
Saying 'woke' means nothing. Just say what is lacking.@@CrimsonAlchemist . There is a lot wrong with Foundation without using words like 'woke' which can mean whatever you don't like.
INDEED : (((((( @@CrimsonAlchemist
@@pglanville He doesnt know what he likes, only what others tell him to. Also the more we call bad shows bad because they're woke, the more they can get away with shows being poorly made for actual legitemate reasons. So yes, stop saying woke, even if its woke. It's lazy, and it's a scapegoat.
Just discovered your channel. Video was a great watch, well done. Subscribed.
Would love to see a Season 2 follow-up on this. Because the show seemed to improve massively between S1 and S2.
The intensity with which this adaptation missed the core meanings of the original work makes me think of The Peripheral. They took a source world that was uncanny in its plausibility, lived in by those for whom it is normal, and replaced it with laugh out loud camp villany, each exchange ending up the dramatic dialogue equivalent of the shlock action you described here. Would love to see a video on the show if you've seen it!
Oh that one deserves to be picked apart for sure
20:00 if they stuck to the stories, the hologram of Hari Seldon would give a pre-recorded speech at the end of every episode. The thing I love the most about The Mule is that he fucks up the galaxy so much that Hari Seldon's recorded message for that era is nonsense, which was my first experience of a wham episode.
Can't wait to hear @JustWrite's thoughts on Season 2!
enjoyable review. Can't wait for your review of Season 2.
The problem with these adaptations is that they are not adapting anything, merely putting their own ideas down and stealing legitimacy from the name. It’s about the egos of these frankly bad writers, not the legacy or the lessons literature lends.
when I first read Foundation I found it so funny that Asimov basically just did a capitalist retexturing of Marx's work, which is bascially just mathematically predicting how humanity under capitalism will always devolve into oligarchy/dictatorship and what social/historical forces play into it, right up until the point where to reach the next phase in human development we need to collectivize. I always just interpreted it as him not wanting to be socialist because of the USSR but being the kind of smart that makes you logically come to the same conclusions most socialists do anyway.
If you see a baby crying in a movie, it means someone pinched it. Now multiply it by how many times one scene can be shot.
That's a lot of pinching. And crying. And pinching. And crying.
In retrospect, I must admit that I didn't think much of the show's first season, it really felt odd at times, whereas the second season has been very enjoyable so far, coming from someone who has never read the books. Seems like they found their balance between the various plot lines and how they influence each other. Although it might still not do justice to the books, it is one of the better sci-fi shows out there.
I read the first book years ago and then binged the entire foundation series literally in anticipation for this series, but I still couldn't will myself to make it past episode 3. What does that tell you? If a sci-fi nerd, who's specifically read a series of 6 books in anticipation of a tv show couldn't make it past 3 esisodes, what hope is there for a general audiance??
I do read a lot of sci fi, but to be honest, I haven't stumbled upon Asimov's work that much. Now it's on my "to read" list. But what is interesting, I was lost and immersed in this series and I really enjoyed it while having no problem with not knowing the source material.
Actually, the general audience may very well like it more, because it's a horrible adaptation but a somewhat ok TV show, in my opinion.
it tells me nerds are pedantic, but i knew that already
you arent the target audience though. the same people who wrote this show wrote new star trek, new wheel of time, new lord of the rings.. etc. as far as I can tell, their audience really only cares about how pretty the show is and care more about the characters drama. I've got a couple of friends who really love these shows and thats their reasoning. 'you have to turn your brain off and just enjoy it. stop focusing so much on the plot'
JJ Abrams' 2009 Star Trek movie still has over a 90% approval rating on RT. Casuals were shown what they thought Star Trek was and applaud their own perceptions. Yes, what hope is there for the general audience?
One of the most eloquently put summaries of the Foundation show i've ever heard. Sharing with all the book fans i know!
17:30 I got a kick from the use of "nuclear power" when I first read the book because Asimov treated it like it was so high-tech, that members of a galaxy-wide civilization who mastered interstellar travel were threatened by not being able to get their hands on nuclear power plants. Then I remembered it was written in the 50s.
Do you plan on doing season 2? I love how you organized and explained things in this video. I’m waiting for tomorrow when the last episode of S2 releases. I have so many issues and I’d love to see your take.
Last? Isn't it supposed to be 10' episodes?
Season 2 is significantly worse imo, I stopped watching within 2-3 episodes.
Idk I'm enjoying it, but I made peace a while ago with the fact that is not the same that I read before. @@2WheelTours
@@2WheelToursseason 2 is so much better
@@2WheelTours Valid, but I never heard of this show until I was scrolling a list that said "TV Shows that got a 100% by critics on Rotten Tomatoes in 2023." Got my interest especially without any context and no knowledge of the books
I really think this would have been great as an anthology show. A series of separate stories that could stand on their own, but that were connected and set in the same universe and that taken together told the meta story-- which is basically what the books were.
Such a missed opportunity.
I agree. Why do studios feel it’ll only sell if it’s about a character driven continuous story?
They just won’t take a risk to present a different artistic formula. It’s so obvious that an adaptation could /should follow the structure of the books. If there’s an audience that consumes the short story collection displayed in the books, don’t you think there’s an audience that would also consume that format if displayed on screen?
They just don’t want to take a risk to find out.
The show runner literally said in the podcast it is an anthology show each season jumps hundreds of years ahead with a few characters running through it with the Cleon clones, Gaal, Salvdor etc.. time jumping with the seasons.
The two reasons Seldon gave for his necessary death, I feel played out in the wrong order. If he revealed his illness first, then the reason why he chose to be murdered and by whom would be an interesting conversation. Seldon would appear to be heartlessly calculating, that his murder would boost the odds most. Then the horror of why he chose Rach as his murderer, because she had the best odds of figuring it out instead of Rach, would necessitate the removal of Rach... etc.
it would be easier if books were read.
Great insight! Would love to hear your thoughts on the second season.
Yes, me too!
The idea that the Empire is ruled by a secure lineage destroys the entire concept of the Foundation
It's instability that allows the Empire to fall. People are too busy looking at taking the Throne to control the Periphery. That's how Bel Roise gets defeated: the active Emperor removed him because he was afraid Riose want to become Emperor himself
A stable line of Emperors would mean a different kind of stagnation. It would still kill the Empire, but not in the way that would cause the plot of the books
The plotline with Day and religion really was amazing, and watching this makes me realize how that and Jared Harris were the only reasons I kept some kind of faith in the season until it's incredibly disappointing ending.
However, I didn't find the attribution of capitalist... bias..? Blindspot? in Asimov's works at the end of this video to be all that compelling or supported. The concept of everyone "mind-melding" and having no privacy, or the idea of incentives driving humanity at large scales, doesn't really map onto the concepts of capitalism or socialism in a self-evident way as presented here. It's not very difficult to imagine arguments for or against these things from a variety of perspectives.
In fact, the entire concept of psychohistory has always struck me as reminiscent of a Marxist view of history: how humanity progresses through modes of production in a way that is driven by class interests that are larger than any individual.
I mean in a way Foundation is kind of about a version of Karl Marx that wrote a sealed letter addressed to 2022 that said "Russia is probably invading Ukraine right about now, an open world Dark Souls game probably won video game of the year, and the workers revolution is due in June 2025."
This was a great video nonetheless and a great critique of the show.
Yes.
The conception of psychohistory really ought to be "sociohistory") is Marxist or Hegelian.
Individuals make choices but they're only effective if they work with the grain of history.
I don't see the conection with Marx here... Asimov didn't mention any sort of "class interest", didn't focus on a hypotetical conflict between different classes, but between different societies. Nor did he consider each class has some sort of common mind or interest, even less the idea that those were in conflict. He didn't focus on the modes of production either, most of the advanced societies seemed to be more capitalist than communist. And even the empire was said to collapse due to the excesive bureaucracy of central planning. I imagine marx wasn't the only historician that tried (and failed) to predict the evolution of society either.
@@alanpennie The Mule surely didn't go with the flow. Asimov presented psychohistory as a somewhat "fragile" thing, needing constant and careful intervention to nudge things in the right way. I think Asimov was aware that this idea of predicting the future in that way isn't really realistic, so he tried to make it more credible or give it a twist with these details.
@@MrTomyCJ You're misinterpreting the meaning of Marx here (I just have to say that was a very funny sentence to type). In this context, a Marxist reading of history refers more to the view of history not as the passage of 'great men' but instead as trends of socio-economic factors, sort of an inverse of psychohistory. Marx's class critiques and so on are related, but a separate topic.
I'd argue there's a degree to which Asimov's works looked at capitalism as a means of control (the Merchant Princes comes to mind), and even the earlier parts of Foundation imply a degree of control through means of production (the techpriests controlling nuclear power), as well as depicting societies that were post-scarcity and thus post-capitalism. Mostly though, I'd say his work reflected 50-80s America and thus 50s-80s capitalism because that was his audience.
Karl Marx was no Hari Seldon!
It was obvious as soon as I heard this show was going into production that there isnt a single writer in the entire American film industry that could adequately translate Foundation to the screen in current year. All the good writers quit years ago.
Science Fiction perfectionists are always going on and one about the heart of this book and the heart of that book. You consider Issac Asimov books to be highly successful, up there with let's say Dracula or Frankenstein. I was a teenager in the 1970s and was part of a club in high school of people exactly like you guys. "The book tells the story from this perspective not relying upon action or character development to tell it's story, rather on the concept. And that's what Asimov was, a big ideas guy. I remember the reaction to IRobot. "It was too Will Smithy, it strayed too far away from the book." When I finished laughing, I consider the criticism. If you were to do either of Asimov's masterpieces, you'd have to do them in the way of a Twilight Zone or a Black Mirror. Because that's what bugged me about Asimov, all ideas and the people were unimportant to his ideas, hence everything being in short story form. People talk about IRobot as if it told this straight forward story using the three laws of robotics as a framing point, instead of a series of short stories related to the idea. Foundation unnerved me because when I came to the next story I thought they were chapters and I kept going "Wait a minute, what happened to such and such." (Unlike Herbert who took on the idea of Empire, Machine intelligence and the danger of pre-destany and the messiah figure. And told it with characters and actions that built upon themselves and had weight and consequence throughout all three books. Duce was originally a trilogy. I think there are 2000 books now.) Here's the thing, Asimov is famous in science fiction circles. Like comics people were aware of them, but much in the same way they were aware of Batman and Superman. Ask those same people about the Joker's latest crime spree or what Lex Luthor has been up to and they'd just scratch their heads. And science fiction was way much more of a niche then. Thanks to the CGI this and the prior generation scorns over "practical effect" anything can be made. Not so much back in the day. (Look up a mini-series called Lathe of Heaven. You know the author, now go take a look at how1980s practical effects treated that one.) I do not think a lot of the big classics of way back when translated into other media because pacing is everything. As a reader you pace yourself within the words on the page. As a watcher it's up to the moving pictures and sounds to set the pacing. And yeah, it's going to be Game of Thrones for a minute, just like it was LOST for a minute before and Matrix for a minute before that. It's the way of things.
I'd be curious to see a follow up to this video after season 2 is done.
Cause for me season 1 & 2 is all the business! Season 2 if definitely better than 1. Of course, I haven't read the books so I can watch these stories purely without basis. And I am hooked!
Same especially as it was one of the few shows of 2023 to get a 100% by critics on Rotten Tomatoes, with the average rating being a 8/10.
(For those who don't know, rotten tomatoes takes two scores, a rating and a good or mid or bad tomato, look it up I don't know how to explain it better).
I just finished watching season 1, and, without having read the books, I agree with what you're saying regarding psychohistory and it being lost on the viewer. At this point, it feels like psychohistory was an excuse for Hari to lead a rebellion. Almost as if Hari is the mastermind behind it, and not predicted by psychohistory.
Also not having read the books and just seen season 1, and starting season 2, I agree with all you said. I wonder if Hari sees himself as or wants to be the ruler in the future, and is engineering things to achieve that.
I'd suggest you read the books, starting with the prequels. The TV series is just a different story from the book series, yet, set in Asimov's Foundation universe. Now that I have watched and enjoyed the first two seasons, I'm re-reading the books (that I had read as a teenager and forgotten most of it anyway.)
I never read the books, but I did enjoy most of the season. The way they moved around in different timelines and the mystery box reveal really worked well in getting across the fact that this story is a big picture story, not based around a specific character (in the long run).
I saw the show prior to reading the trilogy. So I enjoyed it, but it is not faithful to the original material in the least.
I was a big Asimov fan when I was younger. I've read all of the Foundation novels multiple times, "I, Robot", the robot murder mysteries, even the Black Widowers books. I was reservedly excited when I heard that there was going to be an adaptation of the Foundation series. I didn't expect it to be perfect, I knew that due to the change in media from book to screen there would have to be some changes. As long as the core of the stories were faithful I'd be cool.
I watched it when the first season originally aired 3 or maybe 4 episodes before I just gave up. I rolled my eyes at the clones, but I get it. Casting is hard. Demerzel is a woman now? That's fine, the gender of the character doesn't matter. THE CLONES KNOW SHES A ROBOT? What? Why? How does that benefit the story? The real kicker though, the reason I stopped watching it was because Gaal was so sad that Raych was executed for the "murder" of Seldon that she decides there's no more point in living. Like what? First off they spent so much time building the character up to be a central character did they really think the audience would think she would kill herself? Especially after name dropping the characters in the opening narration? And what does that do to the character itself? She's built up as this important character, shes intelligent, thoughtful of her subordinates (I guess you could call them that), and she's just going to throw away her future because her boyfriend died? In the immortal words of Dr Ian Malcolm, "That is one big pile of shit."
(Bear in mind, I have not watched the series, so excuse me if this take is rendered useless because of it)
I have to disagree on the last take. I fail to see a reason why it would be unbelievable for a character to fall into a deep depression after a traumatic, tragic event. I understand it's boring but real life is boring in general. I remember one very character 'arc' from a series whose name escapes me right now, which dealt with depression. This character had been multiple episodes into a deep depression, and by now her boyfriend had grown impatient. After a while, a long while, he told her to snap out of it (in a nicer way, of course), to which she simply replied "that's not how depression works _____". I think about it very often; that's not how life works, in most instances. Please do share your reasoning in the plausible case i've missed something
@@davids.4431 I get that depression is a real thing and what Gaal goes through is a valid response to the kind of trauma she goes through. However we aren’t given much relationship building time between Gaal and Raych to believe feelings that deep. ALSO Gaal is played up as a pretty major character. How are we expected to believe they would kill off a main character like that. Even if we did believe that the relationship WAS deep enough to warrant that level of reaction there is no way her part of the story would end so quickly. ESPECIALLY if you know who her character is supposed to be.
@@DragonSamurai182 that is fair enough. Her character had to be fleshed out more for the course of events to make sense. The overwhelming nature of the series (as in quantity of information to absorb as an audience) must make her reaction feel rushed and whatnot. That is something i can understand. Thank you for your reply
Seldom in my life have I watched such a smart and well-made and helpful video. Thank you so much. You have saved me from watching 5 episodes.
I had kind of enjoyed the Trantor dynamics but the sassy and fierce warrior princess on Terminus - the chosen one - put me off big time. Next thing is I found that video showing me that my instincts were 100% correct.
Again, thanks so much!
I appreciate this video essay, and I especially appreciate your Lee Pace apprectiation!
I freakin' LOVE your presentation and analysis of the Soviet Asimov adaptation!
Watch Halt And Catch Fire for more excellent Lee Pace
While I generally agree with all the criticisms of the show, I can’t help but appreciate the surprising brilliance of the three Cleon emperors. Despite seemingly disregarding and mischaracterising a lot of what made the books so special, I think the show found an excellent and unique niche in the storylines set on Trantor. The storylines following the actual Foundation were tedious and awful but I’d happily watch an entire show dedicated to the Cleon Empire as it decays and falls into ruin
Sigh... your videos are so good. I am currently in the middle of crafting and world building a giant sci-fi story or novel series and would simply LOVE to sit down and pick your brain on it. You might help me fine tune some of the more important details for the greater universe my story takes place in.
37:00 I love that episode and I love the bell that plays everytime Mac makes a dumb argument
All the plot around the emperor and his clones I thought was really well done. Lee Pace is amazing as always. Only exception is the twist involving his younger self. It was just very predictable. I was very interested in the plot with Harry's apprentice until it kind of just went no where. The plot with the Foundation itself was really hit or miss. SO it wasn't a bad show, just kind of good enough to keep me interested...
It felt like Lee pace held the entire series afloat. If it wasn't for him, I would've dropped the show for sure.
Yeah, the show was absolutely at its best when it was exploring plot threads that weren't even trying to be about anything from the book. I enjoyed most of the stuff on Trantor but hated almost everything that was actually the Foundation.
Agreed, the Empire plotline was probably the most interesting part of this show.
I’m not a purist when it comes to adaptations so I was willing to give it a shot but it was Harry’s apprentice plot line seeming to drift that made me drop it.
Harry Seldon... maybe that's who this character really is. Sorry