The 10 best & worst things about the Berlin Series by Orchestral Tools (as of January 2022)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- I've been using the full Berlin Series by Orchestral Tools for over a year, so I thought it was about time to share my thoughts
0:00 Introduction
0:41 The 10 Best Things
15:41 The 10 Worst Things
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![Berlin Con Sordino Strings [REVIEW and SCORING DEMO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sPRogvKL0Yk/mqdefault.jpg)
I was going crazy that there were no time stamps for each pro and con, so here they are:
Best things
0:41 No 1 - Individual Wind & Brass Instruments
4:39 No 2 - Teldex Scoring Stage
5:24 No 3 - Mixing is Easy
5:49 No 4 - Multiple Microphone Positions
8:58 No 5 - Classical Sound
9:33 No 6 - Articulations
10:15 No 7 - Brass Dynamics
11:03 No 8 - String Section Sizes
14:18 No 9 - MIDI Routing in SINE
14:58 No 10 - Orchestral Tools
Worst things
15:41 No 1 Inconsistent Articulations
16:50 No 2 - Inconsistent Scripting
20:16 No 3 - SINE errors & bugs
21:31 No 4 - Sine player
22:24 No 5 - Woodwind Dynamic Range
22:51 No 6 - Expansion Library System
23:34 No 7 - Percussion Patch Information
24:38 No 8 - No Con Sordino Strings
24:58 No 9 - No Purge in Sine
25:45 No 10 - Orchestral Tools
Thanks!
Has anything been updaged / fixed regarding the 10 'wost' things since this video release?
I don't use Berlin as a main library but I still found this very interesting. Company's have to make money. I often wonder what a crowd funded public free library could do. Free samples of every instrument. If they can raise over 500million for a space sim imagine a free public library of samples. The Gift of music for the world.
That would be very cool!
What do you recommend as a Main library?
@@danielweiss4498 Definitely pacific strings now that's out!
yo anyone got a free opensource orchestra for free that's like really high quality and sounds like actually good for free, like I don't want to get a job and buy commercial libraries, like I just want to have a high quality free orchestra land on my lap for free, preferably recorded in abbey road or air lyndhurst, London Symphony Orchestra configured to my settings of: 16/16/12/10/8 strings, 6/4/3/1 brass, 3/3/3/3 woodwinds, 24 SA and 24 TB choir (preferably eric whitacre singers), full orchestral percussion compliment, also some taikos, gran cassa ensembles, ethinc perc, extra cimbassos, bass flutes, euphoniums, bass trumpets, piccolo trumpets, flugelhorns, mixed by shaun murphy hopefully, maybe alex wallbank and jasper blunk could program it for free. k thanks in advance I'm sure we could maybe all record it together or something maybe that would work like at our houses or someone could do it for free opensourse haha
@@AlonsoJoaquinComposer the crowd funded part flew by you it serms.
Nice overview! One issue with a lot of libraries that I’ve noticed is that because we stack individually recorded samples over one another. We get the reverb stacking on itself too, unlike a live recording where there is only one reverb. The more instruments added to a project, the more that reverb builds and can gets boomy.
This isn’t as a big an issue with drier libraries, but ones like the metropolis libraries get that way sometimes. I haven’t noticed that issue with Berlin Strings though, which is what I have.
Thanks! I'm sure you're right, I've had similar issues with Spitfire libraries recorded in Air. Haven't noticed too many issues with the Berlin series though!
Thank you! The internet needs more of these quality reviews. Yea, the mic position visuals in SINE are terrible. Every time I want to solo a mic, I do it wrong. :D
Thanks so much for watching!
One of the best reviews about a library (in this case even a whole line-up) I saw.
Thank you!
Excellent video. These are great points and to be honest I don't think the issues should be too hard to fix. Please let us know if they have addressed these issues. Thanks!
The new con sordino library is really good, so that problem is solved! They made a few minor improvements to the SINE mixer interface, but it's still not perfect. Hopefully they continue to update SINE and make improvements to their libraries!
Good objective review. I love the overall sound of the Berlin series, so I often gravitate to them, although I have plenty of other sample library options. Something about Teldex really appeals to my ear. That said, I wish Orchestral Tools was more prompt in fixing bugs. Unlike for some users, SINE has been very stable for me and I've gotten used to using it. But I have certain articulation issues. The one that drives me nuts is celli sustain and legato patches around middle C (from B2 to D3) in Berlin Symphonic Strings. The note attack on just those four notes starts with a prominent percussive sound. I reported the bug to them seven months ago and they reproduced it and put it on their bug correction list. I think it's probably fixable via editing.
Just days ago they came out with a number of fixes and improvements--and also with a new Berlin Strings con sordino library, which is very welcome. But unfortunately the BSS celli issue remains. I try to hide it in the mix as best I can, so I get by with it for now, but someday I hope they do address it. All in all, however, I really do like the OT Berlin stuff, which I stocked up on during the holiday sales last year.
Thanks, Michael. I agree, OT stuff is very good, but certainly could be improved.
You managed to cover pretty much every complaint I have. I was especially happy to hear a woodwind player point out the volume problem in BWW. It is so annoying, and the only solution is to just turn them up in the mix. I was intrigued to hear about the limitations of the expansion libraries, as I don't own many of those. In the short term, I am just substituting instruments from Berlin Orchestra, though that doesn't help with effects. As usual, you've done a fine job.
Thanks, Jett. Some of the expansion libraries are better than others. If you ever have questions about them, I'd be happy to share more of my thoughts!
I love the example you wrote for woodwinds at 6:51 - If you have a score / sheet music for this, I'd be interested! 😊
Nice review as well, and I enjoy your videos in general
Thanks! I actually wrote a longer piece with that bit of music, but I don't think I ended up doing anything with it. I don't have a score available, but if you're interested in becoming a supporter on patreon, I will often add scores and midi files to my page if a patron asks.
@@AlexHeppelmann You're welcome, and thanks for the reply!
I actually considered taking lessons with you but I'm currently too busy with things for it... So either this or becoming a supporter might very well happen in the future. Thanks for the info and please keep up the great work. =)
Excellent Alex .... as always ... I agree. it's very good,. ¡ Orchestral Tools ...especially the woods ...and like me,. you are looking for the symphonic sound and not Epic or movies,...we adjusted our ear to as much as possible of a real sound...and with very little reverb....I like to spice up the reverb myself...That bothered me from Spitfire ...a lot of reverb ..covering mistakes ....jaaaaa ....ok ...as always a hug!
Thanks!!
Spot on! Both the positives and the negatives. There's also one error i might add, the "str-vib" and the "no vib" variation in Violins II - Sustain + LEG patch are misplaced. I don't know if it only happen in my copy of Berlin Strings but, all the error mentioned were also present in my copy (to be fair, i've contacted them and they say that they "aware of it". So we might see an improvement in the coming update i presume). But despite all of the negatives i don't regret my purchase of Berlin Strings (and the Berlin Series in general). Its a great sounding and flexible library.
Thanks! There are many other errors/bugs that I didn't mention. I really should have started a list going when I first noticed them, but oh well... Like you, I'm still using these libraries despite the issues. Let's hope they make updates soon!
Did any of those bugs get fixed or features added in the meantime? Considering to get some libraries from OT..
Exactly what i needed to make an informed buying descision, thanks so much. Do you own metropolis ark by chance and if so, would mind to review them in the same way? Its sometimes hard for me to only base buying choices on sound demos/walkthroughs alone, because when actually sitting in front of it programming, you start to notice all kinds of things...
I only own Ark II, which I like, but don't use as often as the regular berlin libraries. The arks are well suited for cinematic scoring, less so for classical music.
I have some instruments from the big collections of the berlin series, and I also own LA sessions and in all honesty they could improve a lot. I have seen this video and I love it. I have a few questions about after the con sordino library patch and Sine 1.10 update. Did they release any silent patches to fix the sounds like the tremolo in question or fixing the trumpet legato?
I agree 100% about percussion I bought not too long ago, some instruments. There are no indication of the samples not alike VSL synchron percussion had. I am no percussionist but this method is bad. I hope they rework this ASAP on future Sine Development.
Thanks so much! I like the new con sordino library quite a bit, and the new version of SINE has some improvements, though there's still a ways to go in my opinion. As far as I know that haven't improved the violin tremolo or trumpet legato patches, unfortunately.
Excellent overview! I love how you took the time to literally show an example of each issue but also balance it with some positive remarks as well. I wish people were more thorough like you have done so here.
thanks, I've enjoyed lots of your demonstrations.
Great to hear!
Hey Alex.
Orchestral Tools released the Woodwinds Bundle completing SFX and Additional Woodwinds, and I would like your opinion on them since they fixed some issues and updated the legatos of main library.
It seems that this list could get a new update for 2023 soon after they update the strings (I seen 2 responses from Hendrik and it seems strings are next on the list to get updates on the legatos and most bugfixes).
I own some instruments, and I still have the issue with the inconsistent articulations on woodwinds and also strings which somehow kind of makes you think that if you should bother to spend a lot of money in the main libraries. I really, REALLY do hope they reconsider their opinions and record, rerecord articulations to be on par with the rest of the libraries.
Kind regards
I just rebuilt my woodwind template with the new bundle and have been testing the libraries out -- actually about to upload a video with woodwinds as the focus. I like the woodwinds, and as far as I can tell the legato update sounds really good. It's also nice for me to have the additional winds and sfx libraries in SINE instead of Kontakt, now with additional microphone positions for those libraries. And I doubt they will re-record articulations any time soon, so I've just gotten used to what they have. Stay tuned for some videos soon on woodwinds, and then maybe when OT makes more updates (strings / brass ) I'll make an updated review video!
The only product by OT which I get interested in is the Glory Days big band horns, but I really don't like the interface of SINE Player. They shouldn't stick the store system network into a sampler, it's really annoying that I accidently click the shop bottom while doing some settings.
Yeah, I agree on the store system. That should be a separate app from their plugin
I have used these liberaries for a few weeks now. Has any of you noticed problems with expression on some instruments? For example Wind Solo instruments when I start with really low CC11 Values, it seems like its increasing volume in stages. Its only with some instruments, and maybe mainly Solo Instruments. Any bright ideas how to fix this?
Awesome review! Question: Did OT erase/improve some of the downsides or most of them? After one year that would be very interesting! Just thinking about investing in their Berlin product line during Black Friday week and OT is totally new to me. Thanks a lot for your answer/recommendations, Alex.
1.There have been some updates with SINE, and overall, I like the SINE player now. OT has said that they're working on even bigger SINE updates for next year. Hopefully that includes a purge!
2. They've added most of the expansion libraries in the last year or so, but there are still a few more to add.
3. The Con Sord Strings are fantastic, and one of OT's best libraries.
4. Still mostly the same list of inconsistent articulations and bugs. There is a big Berlin Strings update in the works, so hopefully it addresses some of the bigger issues.
Hey Alex, that sounds quite promising from OT‘s side… very good to know and thank you very much for your answer. I’m quite excited what’s to come there. Overall, it seems that they care about fixing their stuff and developing it further instead of moving on to the next product.
This was super helpful beyond just the BS library. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Wow that jump in volume level on those tremolos is insane. How did that get out? Has it been sorted yet? Have any of these been sorted yet now?
The position of the solo mte buttons is confusing because the line ABOVE them shows that they are arranged | M S | M S | M S | M S | but that's not how they're actually laid out. they go | S M | S M | S M | etc. Why there are two separate lines in two different places is odd graphically, and leads to the confusion. Your eye is naturally drawn to the wrong button by the lines above the buttons
I don't think the tremolo issue has been resolved yet unfortunately. OT did release muted strings and additional woodwinds on SINE, so that's good. The other issues are still present I think.
Very good video. I liked your demo of the different mike positions very much. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone doing that before. Also good thing to see someone pointing out the ten worst things. At this libraries price point, I would have expected more quality. At that state, especially with the inconsistency in the articulations, it is a pass for me.
Thanks for watching!
What libraries do you use if you don't mind me asking? I am currently looking to buy some but there is so much choice.
@@hansmemling7605 I don’t think you are asking me, but since you replied to my comment I’ll answer anyway: BBCSO Pro, abbey road one and bohemian violin (virharmonic).
@@ChrisMuellerMusic I was actually asking you hahaha. Thank you.
@@hansmemling7605 Oh wow 😮 In that case, I hope I could help!
If you can, try and get some free or trial version of the library you are considering and use that first. That way you can find out if it is worth your money. Also: They all have limits. Choose by sound and taste as well. Everyone learns to work with the limitations of the lib. And third: You don’t need hundreds of libraries to make good music.
I think the volume problem in Berlin Woodwinds is just from the Revive version. But don't you also get all the Legacy patches included, which are considerably louder (and are generally better recorded imho)?
Yes, the older recordings are mixed at a higher volume, however the dynamics of the actual instruments are no better. You can turn up the volume of the track all you want, but a mezzo forte will always sound like a mezzo forte, never a fortissimo. The only solution is to record the players playing at a fortissimo dynamic sound. They did this for the brass, so I'm hopeful they would consider it for woodwinds!
@@AlexHeppelmann The problem is that they took a lot of heat over the years about the brass, but you get so many people defending the woodwinds saying, "That's how they balance out in the orchestra." Uh, no it's not. But I have had multiple people say that to me on VI-C. There's no heat, so OT won't ever fix them.
@@hittjett Yeah, you're absolutely right. The piccolo is the most egregious, but to some extent all of the OT winds suffer that way. I guess most people just don't realize it...
The serial spiccato is for playing repetitions.
As of December 2022, have they fixed the RR issues and the bugged legato transitions?
I was looking into Berlin Brass and WWs, but theses problems are sort of a dealbreaker.. especially the RR problem for the brass library
Don't think so. There was one update on Berlin Brass earlier this year, but I can't remember what it was for...
@@AlexHeppelmann ah well that’s a bummer.. this whole integration with their SINE Player seems to have caused more harm than good tbh.. and their process seems kinda half-assed. They’ve updated the flagship brass to SINE but not the additional libraries that complement it. The FFF layer is a great addition, and I absolutely love the divisi patches. Sadly I don’t think OT did this integration properly..
And also that license is not transferable even with Sine player now instead of Kontakt…
These sound similar to VSL and some of your complaints resemble some of the issues with VSL as well. Do you have any experience with VSL to comment on a comparison?
I bought some of their special edition libraries about 10 years ago, but haven't used anything from them recently. Many of my students use the synchron libraries, and most of them really love them!
Great video. I love OT but with this company you seem to get the good, the bad and the smugly.
Thanks! And yes, I would agree with that!
very true and good video
Thanks!
Amused by "breakdrums" - which I think should be "brake drums" for percussion. 24 mins 20 seconds in the panel.
Wow those crossfades for tremolo are quite jarring! Have you reported them to OT support? Might be worth a shot to see if they'll fix it despite their relatively slow speed on updates / fixes.
I'm not sure about this but the Spiccato Serial might be the Spiccato Exposed from the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings. In which case those were recorded later as an update. Their intent was just for them for really quick repetitive playing with a bit more of a stronger attack and more noise on the pre-attack. (If that all makes sense). That's honestly not too much of a difference so it seems like you really could just interchange them depending on taste.
I definitely agree on the UI quirks of SINE. I really loved how Capsule looked (Menu searching aside for stuff like CC). The mixer in SINE is really quite confusing indeed and could be improved.
I'm actually a fan of the expansion system (sort of). In case I don't want to buy / use a certain thing I could save some money by not purchasing them. However OT pricing is already quite high so it really just ends up being more expensive. Additionally the expansions are split up in a way where there's usually a few more standard articulations in the expansions you want, so you more or less need to buy them to get the standard articulation set that most other libraries have. (I.E. Bartok, Flutter).
OT has always seemed to skimp on the dynamics for woodwinds. The majority of the time their woodwinds have 2 dynamic layers, so Berlin Woodwinds Legacy was a bit of an exception with their 3 layers so I don't really foresee them coming back and adding more layers unfortunately. Would be nice though!
Fantastic video though! Definitely a must watch for anyone interested in the Berlin Series.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Seems like we mostly agree on these points. I haven't actually reported the tremolo thing to OT, mostly because it isn't a SINE issue -- the tremolo was like this in Kontakt as well. In order to fix this, they would probably need to record another dynamic layer, and I don't see that happening...
That spiccato really sucks. And I also saw the trumpet issue on the first trombone somewhere on yt.
Is it just me or does the Spiccato Serial almost sound like there's a layer of brass in it?
that'd be crazy! There's definitely a metallic sound in there
Can this still be used in Kontact? (I'm a noob, so apologies if a daft question)
The Kontakt versions of the Berlin main libraries are still available, but OT won't be updating them in the future. And it would cost you 10% of the total cost of the library to upgrade to SINE...
@@AlexHeppelmann Thank you Alex. It's much appreciated 😀
cons nr 11: lots of background noises, which is especially annoying in lower dynamics.
Looks like Orchestral Tools responded with a Con Sordino String library for $500 :|
I dislike the SINE player. I also dislike the new Spitfire plugin. I would've gone with VSL if I knew how awful OT and SF plugins would be: No purge, bad layouts, interface too big, buggy, slow, and most important, there was no huge reason for us to switch. Horrible marketing idea.
They had to cut ties with NI. Their products are being reproduced illegally with ease. With SINE, no one has been able to crack their plugins, which gives them better marketing outcomes.
I agree. The SINE player could use an overhaul. It's a bit weird. However, I do love the Spitfire plugin. I think its very intuitive and solid. As for NI and Kontakt? I refuse to use it or purchase any product dependent upon it. Nothing but install and update drama along with a confusing GUI layout that looks like an 8 bit on my 4k monitor. That said, I still take SINE any day.
I don't get the hate for SINE, I use FL Studio and far prefer SINE to Kontakt
19:02 - U using spiccato in wrong way. U play spicc. like it is soft staccato. It isn’t. - it is kind of stacc. usefull for accents - especially usefull in contemporary music, or action film music….Playing like in your example it sound really bad because of style of playing