I bought a C64 SID chip from AliExpress!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- I bought a SID chip from AliExpress, shipped from China. WIll it work? In this video: SID testing, SID comparisons and using a NES controller on a C64.
Direct comparisons between 6581 SID, 8580R5 SID and SwinSID (with latest firmware.)
--- Video Links
AliExpress MOS 8580R5 (OLGA Company Store)
www.aliexpress...
SID Tester by Andrew Challis:
commodore.softw...
JaffyDos:
csdb.dk/releas...
Doc Cosmos (GAME)
shallan64.itch...
Modifying a cheap modern NES controll for use on a C64:
• Commodore 64 / NES gam...
Rant: Did I buy fake chips:
• Basement Rant: Did I b...
Follow-up to fake or real chips? I think I know the answer now.
• Follow-up to fake or r...
SIDBurners 7 by Nostalgia
csdb.dk/releas...
Legend Intro by Martijn Schutten:
csdb.dk/sid/?i...
Composer page: csdb.dk/scener...
--- Tools
Deoxit D5:
amzn.to/2VvOKy1
store.caig.com/...
Jonard Tools EX-2 Chip Extractor:
amzn.to/2VazxDS
www.jonard.com...
Wiha Chip Lifter:
amzn.to/3a9ftWw
www.wihatools....
O-Ring Pick Set: (I use these to lift chips off boards)
amzn.to/3a9x54J
Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe:
amzn.to/2VrT5lW
Hakko FR301 Desoldering Iron:
amzn.to/2ye6xC0
Rigol DS1054Z Four Channel Oscilloscope:
www.rigolna.co...
Head Worn Magnifying Goggles / Dual Lens Flip-In Head Magnifier:
amzn.to/3adRbuy
TL866II Plus Chip Tester and EPROM programmer: (The MiniPro)
amzn.to/2wG4tlP
www.aliexpress...
TS100 Soldering Iron:
amzn.to/2K36dJ5
www.ebay.com/i...
EEVBlog 121GW Multimeter:
www.eevblog.co...
DSLogic Basic Logic Analyzer:
amzn.to/2RDSDQw
www.ebay.com/i...
Magnetic Screw Holder:
amzn.to/3b8LOhG
www.harborfrei...
Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
www.ebay.com/i...
RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
www.retrotink.com/
Plato (Clone) Side Cutters: (order five)
www.ebay.com/i...
Heat Sinks:
www.aliexpress...
Little squeezy bottles: (available elsewhere too)
amzn.to/3b8LOOI
--- Links
My GitHub repository:
github.com/mis...
Commodore Computer Club / Vancouver, WA - Portland, OR - PDX Commodore Users Group
www.commodorec...
--- C64 Stuff
JaffyDOS:
blog.worldofjan...
C64 Test Harness I use:
• Building a Commodore 6...
C64 Homebrew cartridge PCB: (used for the DeadTest / Diag Cart I use)
www.ebay.com/i...
EasyFlash 3 Multi-Cart:
store.go4retro....
--- Instructional videos
My video on damage-free chip removal:
• How to remove chips wi...
--- Music
Intro music by:
Nathan Divino
@itsnathandivino
Outro Music:
Abyss by | e s c p | escp-music.ban...
Music promoted by www.free-stock...
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)
creativecommon... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
You're finally hearing SIDburners 7 the way it was meant to be heard. So many tunes were specifically meant for the 8580 and its combined waveform capabilities. However, that Legend Intro was indeed composed on and designed for playback on a 6581.
It is very interesting A/B comparing so many SID tunes on the various SIDburners compilations or the HVSC with a C64 Reloaded MK2 board, being able to effortlessly switch between a 6581R4AR and 8580R5 while songs are playing.
Adrian: “Today’s video is going to be a quick one.”
Also Adrian: *Drops 34 minute video.*
JK, keep up the good work.. 🙂
Mine too :)
Soon as the video started I thought the same thing ;)
Yeah, heard that and glanced at the video length with a chuckle. 34 minutes went great with morning coffee.
LOL
😂🤣 comment cracks me up
The reason the drums sound differently is probably the sample playback via $D418, which was a bug/feature that was fixed in the 8580.
You can do a small mod called "digi fix" by soldering a ~330k resistor from EXT IN to GND. That should probably make the drums sound better/normal.
Tobias Mädel It's not digi in this case, it's the filter differences between new and old sid (Cutoff). (On the old sid chips it can even vary a lot from chip to chip, while it's always the same on new sid chips, but generally the cutoff is lower on the old sid)
yes seen a video of them doing exactly that but there was from what i heard at the end of the production in the 1990s the made it louder guessing from complaints from customers ..
The resistor value varies a lot from machine to machine or sid to sid, but at least on mine, a 680kΩ resistor sounded exactly as loud as the 6581R3 I had in my DualSID on the same machine on the left channel for comparison.
i have the 330k resistor for my 8580 in my 64C but on a switch because there were some later games which the music was obviously composed with 8580. it just gives me flexibility to be able to play both old and new games.
I mostly play newer games so I prefer the new SID, the only thing I don't like of the 8580 is that speech is at very low volume, apparently with the old SIDs you don't have to turn the TV volume up when there are spoken parts in games.
I've avoided the SIDs from AliExpress - they are notorius for having issues. However, I have purchased CIA and VIC(1 - for the VIC-20) chips and had few issues. I did wonder where they were getting these to re-badge them. The 8580 uses 9V btw, not 5v! Both chips use 5v for the "logic" side of the chip, 12v for the 6581 audio section and 9v for the 8580 audio section. The reason the SwinSID works on either is both the 8580 and 6581 take 5v from pin 25 VCC, and the SwinSID uses that. The 12v (for 6581) or 9v (for 8580) goes to pin 28 (VDD) - the SwinSID doesnt connect that pin at all.
Wonder what will happen once accurate clone chips come out for things like the 6581
@@joshm264 They already exist! The FPGA SID is pretty much 100% accurate from what I understand (I've yet to re-test with the latest firmware). The ARM SID is another "emulation" type replacement, but that is excellent compared to the Nano SwinSID. Theres also a rare enhanced version of the SwinSID called the SwinSID Ultimate - that sounds almost identical to a real SID too imo, but not as good as the FPGA SID with the latest firmware.
@@GadgetUK164 saying like some way to recreate the dye inside the chip, making it a 1-1 replica
The FPGA SID replicates it pretty much 1:1!
I suspect there are some good ones! A few people have bought 10 or more of them from these sellers on Aliexpress and found 4 or 5 that do work, but have questionable filters / sound a little different compared to how they should sound. I wonder if they are rejects from original factory stock, or whether they are reclaimed from scrapped boards or something. I would not expect China to have masses of C64 boards to scrap tbh! Unless somewhere else in the world scraps boards, removes chips and ships them all in bulk to China?
And about the joypad - I used to make my own for the C64 - some tact switches, protoboard, ribbon cable (reused form FDD cables from PC's) and a DE-9 plug. Super simple, super cool.
NES controller on a C64! Mind = Blown. Cool video, thanks again.
Dang now I want to do the #8bitDanceParty for real. Maybe an outdoor rave somewhere around the California-Oregon border?
Adrian, you should get yourself a PAL C64C or at least a PAL 250469 short board for your SID tunes. The PAL timings will make everything sound correct (and will display the cool demo effects correctly). Like you said, the 8580 SID and C64C are what all the demoscene coders use and program for. I'm in the US and have more PAL 64s than NTSC ones. You could use that to make a cool video about building a 50hz clock generator too. I've made a few of these for my PAL boards out of throughole ICs (PCBs on OSH Park) but they're a bit larger than they really need to be. I'm currently working on a really small one made of SMD chips and a version of the switchless kernal switcher similar to yours, but with the addition of using a free IO pin on the arduino to generate a 50hz signal for the TOD clocks as well.
Or an Ultimate 64. Since so many cool demos and games are PAL, I use the Ultimate 64 in PAL to experience them properly here in NTSC land. More expensive, but the other great stuff you get with a U64 is so worth it. HDMI out, USB drive for storage, true 1541 emulation, on board Freeze carts, ethernet, Two sid slots, UltiSid emulated SID for up to 8 SID playback, and most importantly, it is still supported and improved on all the time. There is an onboard wifi chip that is not being used yet, but will eventually.
0:38 - "one of my favorite sites that I seem to order from A LOT" - proceeds to hover the condoms… :-) nice.
haha
🤣😂🤣😂 thought the same
Wow. I'd heard about the difference in sound from the 2 types of SIDs, but as I never heard the newer variant I didn't think much about it. But those drums in the Legend song make it really obvious how much of a difference there can be. Great vid... Glad you got a working SID! I figure the guys at AliExpress were laughing and pulling another broken SID out of their junk drawer when one of them noticed.. "Wait? This is going to Adrian in Oregon? That is the guy from the Digital Basement!!! We need to give him the good SID chip!!" ;-)
It's a real shame the 64C didn't sell as well in the US, it's such a pretty and capable machine. Great video sir, rock on!
Your monitor closeups made me clean my own monitor .. to no avail; for it was yours that was filthy!
"I hate all the joysticks that were on these computers." YES! Finally somebody talks reason!
It was even worse on the Amiga, IMO. Though it was a newer machine and the game ports supported 3 fire buttons, every joystick for the system supported only one fire button, to be compatible with the Atari 2600 standard. Gamepads for the Amiga were few and far between, and every game used "up" to jump just like in the 8-bit days... for no other reason than tradition. Ugh.
@@Waccoon A pad's directional control is good for 'short bursts' of directions, but having to hold in one direction for a longer time, combined with multiple taps into same direction, or long chains of directional changes without pause, inevitably lead to the thumb slipping from the control, while a hand held Joystick can do any kind of movement endlessly. So for example Turrican clearly is a much better game on Amiga than on the consoles because of the Joystick controls. They practically eliminated most vertical level design on Super turrican, making the game way less open feeling and interesting. The consoles got simpler level designs and less sophisticated jumps, because a pad can't control direction in the way a full size Joystick can.
So the thumb slipping from the cross (similar to that horrible analog thumb sticks we got on all modern pads btw) is a major downside that comes with pads.
And there's another one: Using only a thumb for directions can be too tiring, depending on the action on the screen.
One example of where Pads just can't do the job are those classic 'joystick rocking' sports games; you know, like summer games, where you had to wiggle the stick from left to right faster and faster for an eternally feeling period of time. Not that this was an example of great gameplay, but it's one very obvious example of the limits that a pad has regarding it's directional controls. With a pad normal people can't wiggle nearly as fast as with a stick, and not even to speak of, keep this up for a sufficient amount of time. (Yes, you can try workign around this, by putting index finger and middle finger, or fingers of both hands on the directional controls, but of course that's defeating the purpose of using the pad as a general control in a way that would make playing some games impossible again, similar to the old trick of grabbing a Joystick just by it's head and wiggling the whole base for these games ;) )
So both problems show, that sustainability is a big objective disadvantage that pads have compared to full size Joysticks and of course good games are modelled with these differences in mind.
Yes, on the one hand games like Street Fighter and such are better with more fire buttons, but on the other hand, the original arcade still got Joysticks for directional control.
Depending on the game one can be better than the other, and clearly the majorityof C64 and Amiga games are optimized towards Joystick controls, and if you really want to succeed, you need to be in optimal control for most, with the pad giving a huge disadvantage.
Subjectively I also like the differences that result from games being optimized towards Joysticks. They feel put emphasis on other parts of the gameplay, making them feel more 'serious' to me. The Joystick also contributes to this, by giving a 'more physical' feeling. This means, that when using a pad, I always feel like a guy pushing buttons while standing in fronf of a gaming device. But a good joysticks actually makes me feel a bit more like being inside the game. Hearing the sound of Turrican's metallilc feet slamming onto the ground, after having picked him up towards another platform, by pulling on the Joystick just fits too great! This feeling completely loses it's force with a pad.
So Joysticks it's are one of the many things that make computer games more interesting and often authentic to me, than the 'neutral' control feeling that results from using a pad. In my opinion commodore should have shipped the Amiga with a two-button Joystick, though, that would have given enough momentum for the developers to actually support these more often and of course a third party industry delivering to that movement.
So there is no general 'Joypad' superiority at all, and I have never experienced one, it's just different, I would never like to change the experience I had with playing Amiga games with a good Joystick :)
@@elmariachi5133 As much as I appreciate your insight, there's a reason why joysticks are now designated to flight sims and thumb sticks are everywhere. Poor input controls plagued early computers, and I'm shocked it took so long for things like DirectInput to show up and get this mess under control.
On that note, many modern consoles STILL won't let you remap controls as you like, instead forcing a number of canned options. There's always someone out there trying to design the "optimum" experience, telling you the right or wrong way to do things, instead of letting the player choose for himself. Bad habits (and traditions) die hard!
Sorry, but I would have loved to get rid of "up" and replace it with a dedicated action button on most of my Amiga games, and the only reason why I couldn't is because the industry was immature and stubborn, even though the Amiga (and other machines) delivered hardware that was capable of so much more.
@@Waccoon Well, the reason is that industy nowadays is even more stubborn and ignorant than ever before. With very few tech giants controlling their own market, there's no need for producing what people want. When asked, they always say 'because it sells'. But that's no proof that people actually prefer some current technology standard versus hypothetical alternatives - because there are no alternatives being produced and sold.
It's the modern standard for industrial behaviour in any possible market - people have no choice.
For games in general, you have to choose between some 'modern' standard genres that cover about 5% of the gameplay that once existed on the PC. There are indy-games, but those of course are no industrial thing and usually don't habe any impact on the markt standards.
Then there are mobile phones - if you want a device with some sufficient performance and features, there is no choice for having a T9 keyboard for example, you have to use touchscreens, although it has been proven for years that touchscreens are the least efficient way for doing nearly all activities on a mobile device, besides the least important ones, like web browsing.
Also there are famous classic examples of technological evolution rarely taking the direct path to an optimal outcome, with the all time number one being "VHS " - that actually was the worst possible technology available for the job, when it started conquering the market.
So summarized: A product being the only one of it's kind says nothing about it's reasonability - it's just what industry liked to force upon people. Especiall nowadays this is a problem that affects nearly all products. Industry has optimized itself in a way that mainstreams products before they even come to existence, thus leading to not the people deciding what they want, but managers and product designers. Battles like BluRay vs HD-DVD are a thing of the past, we are in the age of technical monopolism with all it's drawbacks. (like thumb sticks ;) )
I agree. I never liked the "joystick style" of controller and always preferred gamepads. I had a Sega Master System II after the C64 but was never that keen on it's gamepad either but I did like the Sega Mega Drive gamepad.
A few years ago I took a Mega Drive/Genesis 3-button gamepad and modified it to work on my C64.
I built a small circuit and rigged it up to the start button which toggles between up and button A.
When in button A mode the up on the D-pad doesn't work so no risk of accidentally bumping up and jumping, same the other way around. The toggle circuit was built with 2-gates of a 4011 Quad 2-input NAND chip.
Button B is the fire button and button C is auto-fire which uses the last 2 NAND gates in the 4011.
I adjusted the auto-fire rate to the maximum that the C64 seemed to accept.
I love my modded Mega Drive C64 gamepad ❤
Another great C64 project! Can't wait to get started on my own C64 projects.
that sidburner music, remind me lot of the early 2000's, and the keygen type cracks.
Could've called this episode the China SIDrome.
Brilliant!
ahhhhh i just love 8bit music. listening to c64radio.com most of the day XD
I tried the site from my phone but it was a no go.. looks like it uses flash. Also looks like the site is almost as retro as the c64 itself 😁 But, i do love the Rob Hubbard oscilloscope videos on TH-cam.
In 1986, I was 16 years old and I had a C=128. I found a schematic on Compuserve drawn up in ASCII that showed me how to add a SECOND SID chip to my 128 which would give me the ability to play true STEREO music files with three voices per channel. In the parts list, it called for the second sid chip (obviously) as well as a bunch of resistors and caps etc. So I managed to get all the parts then took my 128 to a friends house who had a nice Weller soldering station and I started on it at 11 at night and finished at around 2am ... I took it home and I hooked it up to my stereo and I downloaded a bunch of stereo MIDI files from Compuserve along with the player and I was so happy that it worked perfectly! And it was true 6 voice stereo ... and something about that just sounded amazing to me lol.
I always wanted a 128. Never had one as a kid, only a c64, then went on to IBM clones. Buddy of mine had one though, He has like 2 or 3 128D's now. And I technically have a couple C64s. lol
@@maxxdahl6062I went to PC clones after my 128 ... never looked back ... switched to Mac around 2007 ... never looked back.
That NES mod is brilliant. +1 for the D-pad over a joystick.
Damn that modded NES controller is cool. If I ever find a beater NES controller, I'm doing that as well.
0:37 I was quite worried when you hovered above the durex box. :-)))
I always enjoy seeing Adrian's elation when his fixes go well! 😊
Haha, I had the same idea with the jump button and built myself an arcade-like stick with Seimitsu components in a wooden box a few years ago. I live in Germany and here it's exactly the opposite - the longboards and their components are becoming more and more rare while shortboards from the C64 Cs and Gs are still quite easy to find.
I really enjoyed this video.
"Today's gonna be a quick one".
34:15 long video. :)
I was just about to comment on that! Haha
SID is love, SID is life.. It's been almost 40 years now, and still, that puny little chip sounds better than anything. Without a doubt, one of the great wonders of the 20th century.
I hear great things about FPGA SID, that it's pretty much identical to the real chip nowadays. Maybe that's something you could investigate in a future video? :)
Lovely video, thank you, and keep being awesome.
You forgot one.. Sid4Life
to be fair SID was the end of the road for synth chips in the industry. Jay Miner with Pokey and its ...improved version, Paula, showed that the future was going to be different.
the first song of the Sidburner 7 demo is "Ode to C64" by Jeff Soren
Looks like this chip was from week 14 of 1989, so it was one of the very last chips that ran off the line. Quite probably a part that was produced for Commodore but installed in a unit that was never delivered, and junked along with all of the other stuff when the factories closed down.
I thought it was a clever trick to garble the intro sound.... then I realized it was my Bluetooth headset :-/ Another great video, thanks Adrian
Bad components are always nice as shop decoration. I love those old huge ICs.
I'm a huge fan of the 6581 myself because it's more open to "hacked" soundtracks due to a programming glitch and it just seems more versatile than the 8580 but glad to see you didn't get ripped off.
sounding high pitch is a classic sign of running pal tuned on ntsc, just pointing out the obvious.
I bought a 1541 on craigslist that happened to come with an NTSC short-board C64C. It was just my "extra" C64, I never knew it was rare. I guess I'll have to take extra care of it now!
A while back, I modified a knock-off Chinese NES controller to be used with the C64. Like you, I even did the jump button as well. Really cool to see somebody else do the same thing :)
I linked a video to someone doing that mod with a new one. Definitely harder due to the blob chip versus the DIP as I just soldered onto the legs of the DIP. But yes, the jump button thing is by far the best thing to do one any 8 bit micro!!!
Absolutely. Trying to jump and move around using a joystick was driving me nuts, so being able to do it with a controller definitely makes things so much easier.
Hmm, if I remember correctly the C128 also uses an 8580, so it should sound the same as the short board one does, also here where I live (Argentina) the 64C was quite popular in the home computer market and I even played with one at a computer museum located in the central part of the city
Also the 8580 is a complete redesign of the original 6580, so that's why it sounds so different, but hey I like the two since the difference is only on the filters, the synth is still the same
as i can recall the very early C128 had the 6581 and later 1985 had the 8580 Commodore corrected the Bug on the 8580 but unfortunately Game composers went around this cursed Bug or they Actually took it as a Advantage ... and put it too use making great music .. so when the 8580 came around with out that bug the Game Music played differently and sounded like crap as some of the music had either dead spots or sounded way differntly in laymans terms ITs like someone used a slightly different sound bank to play midis files in todays PC Soundboards
I grew up with a 6581 in a breadbox, I am a musician with perfect pitch.
I’ve spent megamoolahs in the past year dabbling with SIDS, U64’s, and chucking every revision into a Reloaded board?
I hear volume differences, the 65’s sound like a vinyl compared to a CD, and the Swinsid Nano is really fkn close. The 85 has a nice “crunch” so it depends on what your ear likes, and what your expectations are. The SWINSID nano actually impressed me, except for the boot up “Bong”
I’m working on a C64 (or midi paired) that can do up to 16 SIDs simultaneously, I want 48 voices and 16 sampled all running concurrently. My kitchen table looks like a frickin chip laboratory and wifey is displeased, but if I can even get a PC to drive 16 SIDs via MIDI, I will be a chuffed 43 year old without a Porsche.
Anybody who wants to help me with this quest of getting as many SIDs running simultaneously would be a godsend. If you can help with the software, hardware, or even a working SID, Hit me up please.
I believe these chips are the best synthesiser chip ever built, and having worked as an audio engineer, sampling is BORING. I know I could sample a SID but that’s about as fun as playing with a MOOG emulator on your onboard sound”card” in your dell.
I am currently waiting on some parts from Germany to arrive in Australia, but if you think I should make my own TH-cam channel on this project, or would like to contribute p, you’ll receive full credit.
I’m currently about $3000 down the rabbits hole in this project.
Thoughts, opinions from people over 35 are welcome.
I am a huge fan of the 6581r4. It's usually found in the longboard c64 and early c128. I've also found that the tunes I make with them translate better to both 8580 and 6581r3 with less tweaking.
And a comment about failing chips. I've so far only had failed CIA (about 7), one failed CPU and one RAM. Never had any trouble with PLA and SID so far, which seems odd. But I've only repaired about 8 c64s yet.
I love all SID chips, but I do have to admit that my favorite is the 6581 R4AR. Or as I like to call it, "the 6581 Roar!" 🤓
#8bitdanceparty 🤣
that NES controller is *genius*
I suppose you could use the chip in the long board, you just have to use a patch wire to the power pin off the 5 volt rail. So bend the power pin up on the chip, and find a 5 volt source off the mother board or power supply.
I really want to clean your dirty monitor. Great vid!
I never realized how awkward jumping in games by pushing the stick up was in the 80's, now that I re-acquired the bread-box of nostalgia AKA C64 I completely agree with your take on that. Would you consider doing a video on how you re-wired the NES controller?
Another reason to keep failed components is to observe and measure the different failure modes and in the future, you can use them to compare these failure modes against other questionable components when troubleshooting.
Edit: And of course you said that right after i posted it. I should try watching the whole video first, I have a bad habit of doing that :)
I'm amazed to hear that the C64c isn't common in the States. Didn't Commodore release it in 85 or 86? I remember them being stocked from then until about 89, not just in the mass market retailers but in the nearby Commodore computer dealers. I guess the NES by that time really bit into the potential low-end sales. As an Atari ST owner at the time, I really wish the lack of sales was due to Atari ST and Amiga sales here in the States but if that were the case, both platforms would've had a much larger user base and more comparable to what both had in Europe where they were both much much more popular. Over here, the ST and the Amiga fought for scraps. What probably robbed C64c sales in the States during that time period were VTech's Laser 128 line, the Tandy 1000 line, and to a lesser extent, NOS Atari 800XLs and the contemporary Atari 65XE/130XE/XE Game Systems.
I want to see what the Commodore scene can do with the modern PokeyONE chip solution. In addition to supposedly doing Quad POKEY audio, it can do Dual SID too. That might shake up things with that SWINSID chip.
There used to be a local guy who sold a lot of C64 chips that he got from china presumably but he would always test them and it worked out pretty well. Seems like he no longer sells them but I got a VIC-2 for 10€ which has served me well for over 2 years now. I've had pretty good luck with the 4464 RAM chips from aliexpress, cost pennies per chip compared to a few bucks for one on eBay so I wouldn't mind if half of them didn't work, although when troubleshooting it really helps to have known good chips so it's a bit of a tradeoff
Any chance for a tutorial on how to make that nes c64 controller? I really want to make one of those.
I put a link in the description to someone else's video. He did it on a modern USB one. I figured there were many out there but if enough people ask I'll do it.
The SID chip is now *$80.00* !!!!! *DAMN* Chinese!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You could make some Art with Dead Chips. Make a Robot Sculpture with PCB & Chips in the shape of a Gundam or a Transformer lol
Hi Adrian, thank you very much for that nice and interessting video, I immediately downloaded the SIDBurner and tried it on the THEC64 MAXI, works fine, testing on my original C64 (Longboard, SID6581) yet to do... Best wishes from Germany, Michael
The FPGASID is a great replacement Sid, sounds extremely close to the read deal. But my favorite device to listen to sids is with my Ultimate64 with both a real 6581 and an 8580 installed with a direct to sid tap into my audio mixer. The beauty of the Ultimate64 is the ability to switch from PAL to NTSC and SID memory addressing on the fly. Great way to compare sids is swapping channels instantly in my mixer or putting one left and the other right for a stereo effect.
yes it was super pricey but the fact that all the pins were bent to theri original out of the factory state and were clean, already shows that probably they wen't the extra mile of trying it
*_...a question if you follow MADE IN CHINA: I'd bought a NextBook Ares10A Android 6 WiFi tablet quad core Intel x5-Z8350 1.92 GHz 32 GB NX16A10132SPS (from WalMart)...solid manufacturing but works like POS (point-of-sale 6.0 presumably self-updating/upgrading to advertised 6.1) instead of the students' ideal-for-school-work...yet what makes this 'interesting' is that Google did not appear to do 6.1, (cf KRACK exploit)..._*
Please tell me you have a video somewhere going through the process of making that NES controller work with the C64!
Not yet. Lots of people have asked so I can read into that joystick to show the process. (Don't have another NES controller to mod.)
@@adriansdigitalbasement I look forward to seeing it when you get a chance! I have an old NES controller with a damaged cable so this would be a perfect mod.
Gee they got the pins pretty pristine 6:29 , because they look like they haven't been used before, ie, no solder blobs, and quite shinny.
Yeah the sound of the old chip sounds fuller and has more nuances.
They must have a factory that processes these old chips to make them look good again. I'd be curious what their exact process it...
Adrian thank you for another brill entertaining vid ( so much better than listening to the wife ) CAN YOU PUT A C64 PACKAGE TOGETHER FOR ME PLEASE ?
i would be honored to buy one that has been used in your utube vid .... awaiting your reply :)
Where did the multicart come from? My c64 recently went bad, so I'll need a soldering station to fix it. Luckily I have a working SX 64.
I MAY go to the Vintage Computer Show in Seattle in March and bring along a very rare 65 board from the estate of Butterfield.
it is known that the newer SID chips have a cleaner sound but are worse in digi-drums (samples) replay. i.e. they make trance/techno sound a bit better maybe, but sometimes lose when playing older tunes with digi drums. Every 6581 sounds different anyway because they have analogue parts.
Might upset the purists here but I think the 8580 is the better sounding, I think the drum beat and wind sound on the 8580 adds to the track and could hardly be heard on the 6581.
i also think the swinsid sounded like the 8580 more than the 6581 regarding the drum and breeze sounds and I would choose it over a 6581
I believe the 2 filter capacitors are also of a different value on each sid
Ali Express is awesome... You might have to wait a while for the parts sometimes but it is well worth the price...
Edit: My mistake. I badmouthed Aliexpress here but actually I have only had a few Aliexpress purchases and they were satisfactory other than a recent order which failed to deliver and was refunded. I have reordered the same item but now it is hung up with the current global media frenzy. In fact my issue was with BangGood where, out of roughly twenty purchases only a few turned up and most of them were defective. Sorry Aliexpress.
I bought I think three things there and one item never showed and they wouldn’t refund my money or send a new item, so now I avoid them.
@@iconoclad I guess I got lucky
It's LaXity not LaRity. And yes 6581 and 8580 sound different, the crude difference is that 6581 is grittier (because of the filterbehavior) and 8580 more "hi-fi" ish.
the 8580 was always cleaner, more stable, more robust, and the REAL advantage is the lower noisefloor and idle noise.. the downside is, because of the tighter spec, the bandwidth is reduced, and sample playback is practically useless. Great score though, and actually not a bad price for a working one. Now get a second one and TWINSID it!!
The 6581 is better for earlier game tunes, 8580 for later game tunes.
I've been wondering about those TDK D tapes under your monitor, are you using them for music, or for computer storage?
Also, at least that SID seemed well packaged, I had a SID chip shipped to me in an envelope, with the inner packaging being a non-ESD-safe plastic bag, and a piece of kitchen sponge... The 6581 lived, though! Only cost me €20, fortunately.
I notice that almost all of your failed SID chips are from 81 and 82, and the dead PLAs mostly from 83 and 84. Do you think this may be related to the passivation-layer problems MOS had in the fabrication at the time? Some of the eningeers mention something they called "purple creeping crud", where the glass sealing the die had a bad composition and would slowly etch away the aluminum metal layer (sometimes over the course of years). It was presumably discovered and fixed in late 1984 or early 1985.
The main reason for using the 8580 for demos and other prods, is that as you mention the sound is much more consistent and predictable. The 6581 have a filter which is quite compromised, and very greatly affected by variations in transistor-grade. Every single 6581 therefore has its own distinct sound and filter-behavour, and you'll have a hard time finding two which sounds exactly the same. As the designer said in an interview once "I knew it wouldn't work very well, but it was better than nothing".
The C128 also uses the 8560SID.
If you want, buy another 8560SID and a C64 Stereo mod board. The 8Bit Guy did this and a few.modern games use it.
My C64 (Breadbin) has the short board under the hood.
Same here.
I really should go and find some good demos and modern games now that the 128D is all happy.
Some good examples here I’ll go look at - thanks Adrian.
I did the samething with my emulator configuration as you did with rewiring up to jump on your controller :-) There's some nice games on the c64 but I could never get used to jumping with "up"! Nice video (as usual) btw!
Love the c64 coverage. Long time ago, I wrote an article or two on the c64. Your videos make me nostalgic to go out and buy one again and get back to modding! Thanks!
thumbs up for the controller, i did few years ago exactly the same from a yellowd nes controller, same coler as my breadbin, absolute perfect playing, i also hate joysticks, special platformers have to be played with D-pad. maby make a how to video for all people who are intreseted (and be honest it look way better then a atari controller
No, you're right; it's used/recycled.
So it's a SOUND INTERFACE DEVICE ... ffs. Maybe your video should also carry a warning... Your ears are about to bleed, and you will experience a sudden urge to self combust as the master wordsmith craftsman waffles his way to the CIA's heart with the next big torture soundtrack played at 2^90 decibels in Guantanamo Bay.
You *are* aware that 2^90 is 1,237,940,039,285,380,274,899,124,224 right? A jet engine at 100 feet away is 140 decibels. People can *die* at 200 decibels.
I've always preferred the 6581 as it has a "muddier" sound. I never realised the difference as a kid, despite a neighbour owning a newer C64 (which would have had the 8580). My breadbin definitely had the 6581 though as it was one of the earliest C64 units produced. Sadly, the C64 died many years ago and I gave it away along with the huge game collection :(
I got a C64C and it has a 6581 r4 in it , so your neighbor might had the same sound chip
Little fun fact... have you ever tried acquiring a PAL C64? You'll likely find that your screen already supports PAL, because LCDs do all the conversion in software (firmware)... they just plop the same firmware on every model and sell the same model in PAL regions. So you just need to plug it in and you can run PAL-compatible demos. There's a 60Hz (now 50Hz) signal that'll get screwed up - and that only seems to affect baud on the user port (no modems, boo, lol), but video and demos mostly play fine. You can see some amazing things with a PAL C64 and a real disk drive!
Good work.
Great timing with this video as I need to pickup a couple of sid chips. You had luck but looking around it seems really hit and miss if you get a working chip or not.
I keep looking at those swinsid nanos on ebay for about £15 but not sure. Might get 1 just to have but I'd prefer the original. Could you maybe do some more comparison between the genuine suds and the various remakes?
I need to get the FPGA SID. It just seems hard to find these things even ... The FPGA one is the way to go though. Apparently so much better than the SwinSID.
An idea for one of your bad chips is to dissolve the top of the casing to expose the circuitry within... makes an interesting display.
Send one off to Electron Update, he opens up chips and goes through them under a microscope, layer by layer.
Can you undervolt the 6581 to say 10 or 11 volts to make it run cooler and last longer. Does that affect the operation/sound?
You can't undervolt it by that much. About half a volt in either direction is the maximum tolerance on most chips. For example, you'd probably be fine with only 4.7V on the 5V rail (and in fact, undervolting the 5V rail by about 0.25 volts makes the entire machine run ~3C cooler.) Or, in the case of the 12V supply, 11.7 volts would probably work.
I always thought I’d remembered that the C in 64C stood for ‘compact’
Haha. You're probably right too!
actually it mostly isn't 'pulls from e-waste'... it's just overstock from factories that once assembled something that had said chips in them... if they ask 40 bucks for a chip and people buy them that is probably a good incentive for china to start making new ones again. (even if you would buy fake or broken ones. it still is an incentive for them to make new ones ... 40 bucks per chip. gotta sell at least a 100 'current model' microcontrollers or logic chips for that ;)
There is NO SUCH THING as a VIC-II that runs on 9Vdc. The 6567/6569 require 5Vdc and 12Vdc. The 8562/8565 requires ONLY 5Vdc.
I thought we were going to see a C64 go up in blue smoke. I'm really surprised this was an actual SID, not just some other 28pin IC.
Would have been fun if someone made a SID pak for CoCo. Tandy Speech and Sound pak was as close as we got.
13:20 Laxity, AKA Thomas E. Petersen, of the Maniacs of Noise. Dude's a ludicrously prolific composer, with more than 200 entries in the HVSC.
Really enjoyed this video and the explanation on SIDs. I guess you got lucky with the China SID. Hope to see more soon!
By the way: i actually really like the 8580R5 version of Martijn’s track.
Excellent explanations and enjoyable comparisons. Your videos are touching uncommon arguments for nerds. Really appreciate 👍👍👍
The 6581 uses a 12V VDD and 470pf audio filter caps, the 6582/8580 uses 9V VDD and 22nf audio filter caps. (check what the board is set up for) If you use the wrong caps and/or VDD the SID will sound wrong & if you use a 9V SID on 12V it will cook it. (see C128DCR schematic)
Sound evaluation: The long-board sounded good, but slightly 'muddy' in the more percusive parts...; the short-board with the Ali-Express SID sounded cleaner; brighter, with a better defenition on the percusive parts:- they sounded like something striking metal, rather than a dull thud.
Rather like clean tape heads, vs dirty....... The Swin-Chip sounded ok, but the melody tracks were recessed and slightly echoing.... not very nice - especially when the main part of the track breaks out!
Overall, for me, listening on headphones, the Ali-Express SID chip sounded cleanest, and most musical, and so for me, the best.
I love that you kept all these bad chips Adrian, and that you plan to show the failure modes... you know what i'd actually love to see is a step further. A single concise video quickly showing all the most common failure modes of a C64 back to back and what chip(s) need to be checked/replaced to repair it.
Wow I had no idea how expensive SID chips have become! Back in 2012 after building my x0xb0x Roland 303 clone, I had planned to build one of those open source MIDIbox MB6582 SID synthesizers that uses up to 8 SID chips in a standard synth form factor with built in programming as well as MIDI support.
I still have the chips laying around waiting for the day I finally build the thing, so I went and checked my old emails and saw I bought 8 chips, 4 of each type, for only $200! So only $25 a piece. And he even went out of his way to sound match the 12V chips for me (as apparently they differ more in the filter sounds than the 9V chips).
Just checked eBay and see SIDs all going for $50 a piece, some even up to $80, and I’m sure they’ll only get more expensive over time.
Wow am I glad I hung on to them (and I can’t believe it’s already been 8 years haha!). I searched for the seller’s account that I bought from and it doesn’t even exist anymore. Thanks for reminding me that I had them and reminding me to finally build the damn synth already :)
Love your videos!!
Cool video. But 34 min just for a “quick” Sid test lets me wonder how long it would have been if it was a LONG test ! 😅 anyways, filter differences are well known between 6581 and 8580 chips. That’s why many musicians still 6581 ones.
I bought a few chips from China back in 2012, I think at around 8 USD a piece. They were clearly fakes, but cheap enough to just give them a try. At best, two voices played and both very muffled. I got 5 and 3 simply didn't work.
That pad that you made for the 64 looks better than using a joystick 🙂👍
Daniel Son I think for games like Boulder Dash, where speed and accuracy are everything, anything other than a microswitch Competition Pro would suck. But it's all about what you're used to, I guess!
8580 has a different analog section owing to the new process and lower voltages. You'll really hear it in the filters, which is why the percussion and white noise is different. It also has much less of a click when changing the master volume, making a lot of samples too quiet.
My dream is to find brand new replacements for all IC's necessary to make the Commodore 64 work, this way I could use a brand new board with brand new IC's like CID, PLA etc etc and just use a conversor for USB keyboards and the case of a new C64 Maxi. It would be magic!
I have two c64c boards and one needs a vic and sid the other has some gfx issues. I can buy them for £15-£20 and all need vic and sid for this price. The Vic are around £10, but all the sid chips are between £30 and £40 in europe - uk. I brought a cheap nano swinsid for testing ect but I don't think it is worth buying the cheaper boards and then spending £50 to replace the two missing chips.
Think you've never seen a Competition Pro or Zipstik ;)
Some games like Turrican, are nearly unplayable with a Pad btw, because you cannot use a full Joystick for controlling the direction during the sophisticated jumps, but only a thumb.
11:50 The analog filters on the SID chips not only make every chip just a tiny bit different from each other --- but each performance of the same composition on the SAME chip is (just a tiny bit) different too ...
The prices of SID chips on eBay are absolutely ridiculous... I sold my C64C in a perfect optical unyellowed condition and perfect technical condition on german eBay for the same amount of money a few years back.
Adrian, just my auditory observations, but the SwinSID chip's individual "notes" sound truncated in playback. I much prefer the longboard's SID.