Why the "People's Chord" was erased from music history.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- The guitar has always been an instrument of the people. Going way back to its oldest relatives, and looking ahead to where it's going, the guitar positions itself with the common person. But over the last few decades something shifted in the way guitar was taught. With the adoption of guitar pedagogy in the schools, went the disappearance of one of the most powerful chords that guitar players have always used.
This video is an exploration in "the peoples chord". Where this chord went, why folks played it, as well as some of the best practices in some of the techniques I use to play this chord.
Of course, these are just my ideas, what are some of yours?
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I'm a classical player. We are generally taught to play in the Spanish and Italian traditions. And it's in the Spanish style guitars where the neck is wide and doesn't work quite well with thumb playing unless you have large hands. It was until much later that I found out that there was a central European classical guitar tradition where the thumb was used (and a full barre was never utilized.) The surviving sheet music of J.K. Mertz even has the thumbed notes annotated in the music itself. In 2017, I bought a 1929 German harp guitar, and interestingly, the neck shape on this particular instrument works to make thumb playing easier.
Classical guitar players don't like thumb over for a very good reason - it immediately drops the arch off your wrist with these problems: wrist cramp, lack of economy of movement over the fretboard, likelihood of damping notes because of altered had position. They miss a couple of issues. You aren't required to spend your whole life with thumb over, there are times when there is MORE economy of movement with thumb over, it's much better to have your hand constantly and fluildy changing its orientation to the fretboard, you can damp notes just as badly with barre chords (or any chords/fingerings), as you say, there are some things you just cannot do without thumb over.
I was going to add some words that would satisfy everybody and solve the whole problem, but then I thought whoa dude, how much does this really matter?
I enjoyed the insight into why the thumb chords disappeared, but as a primarily nylon player I was super confused for a good chunk of the video until he differentiated steel string from classical guitars. And yeah, those arguments make sense.
But classical guitars are a different ballgame, and it's literally a physiological impossibility for MY particular hands to even get the notes fretted on a standard-neck nylon guitar. I can at least get the wraparound achieved on a steel string, but I enjoy the tactile feel of classical fingerstyle much more than steel strings, so I'll stick with barre chords for now.
They also use much wider necks
@robertnewell5057
That's a bunch of bullshit.
Classical guitar players don’t sing and accompany themselves at the same time. That’s the difference.
I always knew this shape as the “Hendrix” chord as I was taught it when being taught to play “Purple Haze” as a kid
great history and description of the thumb over chord. I really appreciate the techniques to expand access on the fretboard. Keep it up.
My teacher had a no thumb rule until I brought in Bert Jansch's arrangement of Angie. The first week he was strict, and I flailed, but at home discovered how much the thumb over actually is built into the song. When I showed him that the next week, he changed his mind. Now, he's good enough to actually do it with a barre chord, but us mere mortals need sanity to move forward. :)
You can't fail at guitar because of tutors opinion on technique. As long as you are not stretching with pain in the wrist or hand you can do whatever works. Your teacher, better than Jimmy Hendrix was he?
It certainly is built in - same as with many of Bert's songs. I am a mere mortal like you and do the same, and life is short. I say make music any which way you can :)
I saw Bert Jansch LIVE 6 times in the 1980's, and noticed his thumb-fretting.
At the time, he was absolutely HAMMERED at every gig, yet still played phenomenally, once he'd finished playing "Tu-ning"....
Self taught at 13yr old I saw Hendrixs use his thumb if it was good enough for him it should be good for me too. When my nephew was 8 years old I gave him a ukulele he put it in his lap and started to strum. His mother said to him that is not how you play it. I told her plenty of people play it that way. I asked her if she ever heard the song Angel Eyes by The Jeff Healey Band she said yes and I told her thats how he play's guitar. I then told my nephew there is no wrong way to play guitar do it anyway you like.
You told your nephew right.
If only violinists could be as open to change as us guitarists, I play lefty guitar and want a lefty violin but every single music teacher I look up refuses to teach violin and every comment on a lefty violin is just people bashing on it telling would be buyers they're better off buying a right handed violin
@@furrycircuitry2378 Except for the chin/shoulder-rest thing, what's the difference between a left and a right hand violin?
To me, the rest of the instrument looks symmetrical, so what difference does it make??
@hansemannluchter643 I don't know they're just kinda snobby I could never play a right handed instrument they hurt to play and hold
Classical guitarists were using thumb over in the early 19th century as found in the method books of Fernando Sor, Mauro Giuliani and others.
Didn't know that about Sor, I love his stuff. I'll have to look into that!
I remember the books I had as a beginner and absolutely remember the thumb in the middle of the neck instruction as you showed. "Don't allow your thumb to extend over the fretboard on the bass side"...LOL. I then saw Pete Townshend playing Pinball Wizard in the Woodstock film and the light bulb clicked! No way to get that sound and rhythm without using your thumb. I learned pretty quickly that a lot of "rules" are just "suggestions"...
Bet they never saw Hendrix play either lmao
@@randomguyontheinternet7940you’re really showing your lack of guitar education. Guitar pedagogy has been around for 400 years and you want us to stop and throw it all away because of a drug user who really couldn’t play his own music? Go watch Hendrix live, it’s awful
@@theskyizblue2day431Go listen to "Band of Gypsies", or "Live at Monterey", then come back and repeat your nonsense..
Preach! Diversity is better. More tools=more sounds.
Yeah buddy!
I’m an old guy, fairly new guitar player. I started from the beginning with fingerstyle acoustic. I don’t do any barre codes. My favorite chord is the thumb over F.
Good stuff young dude! I don’t know why your videos keep falling off my radar! I always love them!
I still miss the old rustic studio. 🫤
I miss it too. But onwards!
@ 😂😂
I remember this chord from Hendrix. I wasn't aware it was a thing besides him. Interesting. He uses it in The Wind Cries Mary and other songs. I believe it depends on your playing style and position. This chord is comfortable for some while akward for others. And I am not sure if smaller than mine giant hands would find this way usable. But I think everyone should try it out.
I very much enjoy learning the “etymology” of guitar technique. These are great!
Glad to hear it! It's a lotta fun to work these kinds of vids up (and a ton of work), so thanks for the encouragement!
I have very small hands and guitars with very wide and thick necks. I can easily do thumb over chords. Like anything else, it just takes practice.
I have been eagerly awaiting a comment like this! Nothing like some good old fashioned determination!
I took piano lessons at age 12-13, the teacher was kind enough to tell me that my hands simply weren't large enough to ever become a professional pianist.. So, I switched to the recorder, because I still wanted to learn musical theory, playing an instrument at the same time.
But, the recorder is actually pretty boring soundwise , so I switched to the guitar at age 15..
From day one I used my thumb for fretting. If 4 fingers is good, 5 are gooder😊
I took a few lessons from a classical guitarist decades ago, and I remember the teacher saying something about thumb over not being good for your hand and causing problems later (arthritis or something?), but he also said that many guitar players still do it, and that it might be okay on occasion. For my part, I've done it for many, many years, and more so the longer I play. I have small hands too, so it is possible.
Joni Mitchell did it for decades...
I had a teacher for a few months. He threatened to hit my hand with a ruler, when he saw my thumb pop up.
He wasn’t teaching you to be a musician then. He was trying to train a performing monkey or something. Loads of jobs for him in China and other hellholes.
@gearoiddom He was just kidding. The main reason I hired him was to fix my timing. He told me that he had never seen a guy in his 50s who has been playing a long time ever fix the problem. I would get upside down in the rhythm. I just had never been taught how to count time, and play. I made charts and grilled myself for a weekend. I was determined because he said I couldn't. I was driving 60 miles each way to see him, and I think he really didn't want me to learn too fast, because he knew I was gonna fire him eventually.
typing this with my thumb
Most underrated comment on the internet 🤣
Thumb over D/F# is verrrrry handy, I hate trying to work without the low E string when I am finger picking
Boom!
So true! I've used it for 70 years and it's never let me down, hahaha!
Kyle you really stirred up a hornet’s nest here. I would have never thought this subject would be so controversial. I use thumb and bar interchangeably - just depends on what’s most comfortable, and I rarely think about it. You are exactly right about the open/closed hand. Good video, thanks for posting!
@@MikeM-Colorado not sure why it’s controversial. People should do what works best for them.
Thanks dude! I honestly didn't know it was this controversial either. I just noticed there's a lack of people talking about it. Now I know why haha.
My father calls nylon-string guitars "folk guitars." He learned how to play guitar around the Cambridge, Mass. folk scene in the 1960s.
Well your dad is misnomering them technically. Tell your Dad that the folk tradition is way older than Nylon. Nylon was invented in 1935 by Wallace Hume Carothers. Francisco Tarrega died in 1909. Your dad is wrong!
@@StuartwasDrinkell I know he's wrong. That's just what he calls them.
To add to the confusion, Gibson has the "folksinger", which is essentially a classical guitar, with steel strings. Jeeze oh man!
👍 up tutorial and presentation. Dig your channel..
If Hendrix did it, it's allowed. lol
Richie Havens
This video goes viral or we riot.
20 years ago, coming from some nylon guitar, i asked a rock guitar teacher if thumb over is ok during a lesson. He looked over my shoulder at a giant jimmy paige poster behind me, with his thumb hanging over. "Well if paige does it..." I both deeply respected and disrespected that lesson, and never forgot.
A note for beginners (like me): Thumb muting the 6th to hit a 1-5 string chord with a big strum is very common.
Haha, go share it on reddit and lets see what happens.
I love that little moment you never forgot, I have so many bits like that floating around my memory bank too.
7:43 I think that’s a good point. A lot of how I play guitar is just how I figured out how to play. I have had a few lessons and occasionally I will look up a chord. That’s about it. Now when I see someone teaching it differently than how I figured it out, I will only use it if it makes more sense than how I do it.
Dude same! I'm "self taught" on guitar, but man I've had a lot of help.
I teach thumb curl and barre at 7th fret, Bm7, as a stepping stone for Bm. Less tension than stretching and squeezing for the barre chord. All kids can do it. Plus it’s moveable . It’s worked fine for 23 years of classroom guitar. They can also do thumb curl D, D/F#. No one ever said your hand, wrist, or elbow has to be locked in place. So shift it to reach what you need. Some can do F barre with a thumb. Many kids love the sound of D/G, done with a thumb, which is a real modern / progressive sounding chord. The thumb can also mute 6th string for those barre or power chords starting on string 5. Free the thumb!
Thanks! I learned a bit, and the history... I never new. I was in a thumb over family, then took a year of classical in the 80s at about 27. And the mobile position really makes my style work. Nice shop!
Mobile is where it's at!
In "Fingerpicking Styles for Guitar" by Happy Traum, he talks about the thumb-over technique. I remember that he talks about it early in the book with respect to Dave van Ronk. I think it must come up later, because he transcribed solos from players that I believe used it, but I'd have to check.
The 40th anniversary edition of this book was published in 2006, so it was first published in 1966. I believe my copy was printed in 1980. It would appear to have been a popular book for people wanting to learn fingerpicking.
I had a book by Happy Traum and his brother Artie called "Rock Guitar", but I can't remember whether it was mentioned, though it probably was. I gave that book away a few years ago.
I think back in the day, everybody knew about thumb-over. Personally, I don't think it matters that much. I thought I didn't use it, but a week or so ago, I found myself doing it with a D chord. I certainly don't use it often. If I had bigger hands, I might. I am very critical of the way classical guitar is taught. It would seem that that's the basis for guitar pedagogy.
A couple of people have mentioned in the comments that they don't use barre chords. To quote an old commercial: "Try it, you'll like it!" By and large, they're just the chords with open strings with a barre instead of the nut. It doesn't take that much practice to develop enough strength to play them and it's an important factor in learning to play all over the neck, instead of diving back down to the safety of the first position at the earliest opportunity (I speak from experience).
Big Barre Chord just put out a hit on you. R.I.P.
Haha, it's been real.
very well thought out !
Thanks bud!!
I think the reason why thumb chord is generally not as commonly taught in classical pedagogy is simply because it is not really a different chord.
It's just an abbreviated chord, and there are many different variations of abbreviated chords that all play to the same chords, that are well suited for different songs. You can practice abbreviated chords when you're learning specific songs where the abbreviated chord may make things a lot simpler or sometimes even it's the only way the song could've been playable.
But when you're learning the basic techniques, you're learning the most neutral technique for most songs, one that gives you the most flexibility to go anywhere else, even if it's not necessarily the easiest to play for any particular song. Especially when you didn't have the chance to analyse the song and need to sight read an unfamiliar song, it's usually going to be a safer bet to do a barre than thumb chords.
Thumb chords is definitely a useful technique, but its importance is really no different than partial chords or alternate fingerings. Once you have the basic foundations, you can easily learn those variants when you're learning a specific song where they are useful.
I was taught by a friend never to play it that way... i learned the hard way that it was never wrong to begin with. And its the easiest way for me to move around shapes while fingerpicking. "Do whatever makes you play best", is what should be what is taught.
The thumb is used in few Jazz chords, and I see it used consistently by rock and folk/country musicians. Hendrix used it a lot. I don't employ it often because it is a bass note that bassist will cover but for solo guitar sometimes that bass note is important. (edit typo)
Fair point! I mostly use it to try to be the bass player, but of course, not always the thing to do!
I sont know if anyone has mentioned but there are also Gypsy Jazz chords that are impossible to play without the thumb over technique Major7add9 and Minor7add99, i called those the wrist breakers untill i figured out how to comfortablely do it and now they as easy and fluid as the rest. Minor is still abit tricky as you need to flatten the third on top of this mess but its a cool sound.
Yoooo that's a fantastic tradition to bring into the conversation!
Blues, Rock, Reggae, Funk, Soul, R&B, Country, Gospel, Jazz, Bluegrass, Folk, Ragtime and Jug band all commonly use the thumb over and note bending in general uses a thumb over position
Oh didn't even consider bending! Yeah dude totally!
I've got two words for ya 'Mel Bay'. Guitar technique and 'teaching' was all derived from Classical Guitar playing which would never use the thumb over. All the guitar teaching books/methods from the 30's-60's were based on Classical Training/Positions. (So even John Lennon et all didn't use thumb over neck and played 'properly'). Otherwise, "The People", who were usually not 'trained' (folk, Blues, etc.) developed the thumb over. Even the example from the 1600's you showed of a woman on Baroque Guitar was probably playing in a "Parlor Style" on a Folk instrument and not true Classical style.
Lennon absolutely used his thumb over the neck...
If you search "Lennon guitar Paperback"
There's an image of him holding his Casino with thumb over the top.
Hell. The earliest photo of John with a guitar (him in plaid, mic, the church gig) he is holding it that way.
Pretty sure you need it that way to play Dear Prudence and Julia.
@@lococomrade3488 He hardly ever played that way. He 'barred' his chords very straight with the index finger pronounced upwards to get to the meat of the finger. George Harrison even more so. Actually, you can't play many of Lennon's classic Riffs like "I Feel Fine" WITHOUT playing it with bar chords. 'Dear' Prudence and 'Julia' were much later in his development when he learned finger picking.
@myradioon Go watch their first appearance on Ed Sullivan.
Both John and George wrap their thumbs around in "She Loves You." The first song they play, on their first American TV performance.
Plus, probably the most well-known pic of John pre-Beatle holding an acoustic..
So your "Learned from Donovan Fingerpickin later" theory isn't correct, either.
Sorry, brotha, but you're just demonstrably wrong. 🤷🏻♂️
@myradioon Also..
Paperback Writer music video; Paul (originally a guitarist) wraps his thumb on his bass.
The Rain music video starts with John having his thumb wrapped around.
It's a necessity to playing Beatles properly.
@@lococomrade3488 yes, John definitely used thumb over the neck - you can see it in a lot of photos and film - it was standard for he and George to play the C shape position all up the neck using the thumb to fret the E string.
I'm a thumb-over blues player but it is a handful on "classical" nylon string guitar. I'm used to steel string electrics & acoustics, but it is a bit harder on those huge necked things you guys play. I agree with you for rock and blues guitar players as well - you should be able to do thumb-over chords.
Totally. Different instrument, different technique.
Especially for fingerpicking, if you’re not using your thumb, you’re missing out on a lot of possibilities. When I started out over 35 years ago, I saw Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix doing it, and since I was having issues with barre chords (particularly the F), I went with it. It also allows you to strap your guitar down low like Page!
Saw Hendrix doing it yrs ago, i love it. Also use classica possition, but anything goes for me. Use them both. Rocks better for certain things.
Interesting discussion, thank you. Knopfler exclaimed that he would have been a guitar teacher’s nightmare (apparently he only had one lesson - from his sister’s boyfriend - which makes sense since MK was a folkie at heart because his Dad could not afford an amp after getting him a guitar) as he held the guitar like a plumber. MK has large hands and can wrap his thumb over the top, even on wide boards. Not all of us can. Enjoy the guitar, wrap it sometimes, sometimes not. This is an art to be enjoyed, where prescriptions can make one miserable. Thank you again for another great vid.
Haha, like a plumber, I love it. Thanks for stopping by Tom!
@@kostringworks No worries, have a good one!
I learned to play guitar in the early seventies. Mostly at home studying chord symbols and later talking to friends who played better than me. (Never had a formal teacher). But the consensus I heard from everyone was that although using the thumb seemed to be convenient, it was very much "bad technique," which would paint you as a hack, and make it harder for you to improve in the long run. I nevertheless still used my thumb in certain circumstances, although I felt guilty doing so. I also noticed that the Woodstock poster had a characature of someone very visibly using their thumb, and it seemed odd to me that such a prominent festival logo would show something that supposedly was the greatest crime against guitar playing. Much later I saw some video of Jimi Hendrix playing and I noticed that he used his thumb a lot. At that point I decided that this "rule" wasn't something anyone should pay attention to.
Using the thumb in the bass is an absolutely indispensable technique to my manner of playing, and it's definitely really wild how inaccessible the idea had been to me not all that long ago. I think I had probably learned it from the Townes Van Zandt Private Concert dvd that came out in 2004 or 5; my playing vastly improved over a couple months of obsessively watching how he played in that. It seems like an idea that's still primarily transmitted peer to peer or by physically seeing someone employ it, which was def a lot rarer back in the pre-TH-cam days.
Dude that concert is amazing, I know the one. I have a video like that - that totally changed my life as a guitar player - it's the one of Rev Gary Davis playing for like 22 min straight. You should look it up! It's black and white. Just about every thing I know about chords came from obsessing over that video. It's been like 10 years and it still floors me.
Great vid! There is no 'objective' guitar technique, it's all down to style!
Precisely!
A great thumb over country blues tune to learn is called "Ragged and Dirty" by Willie Brown. I learned it thanks to Stefan Grossman's guitar workshop in the 90's.
Love that tune!
Those of us with short fingers find the thumb over style impossible.
I don't...
Can do it on any Fender, and even on Gibsons, and I don't have long fingers either.
I'm a pianist, but I found your video very enjoyable!
Heck yeah! I bet there's some wild opinions on piano hand positions too.
I remember reading about using the thumb on the bottom string in Gordon Lightfoot songbooks, which were among the first things I picked up when I started learning to play guitar, many years ago. Actually, Lightfoot's songs and records introduced me to Travis picking, too, the subject of the last couple of your videos.
Nice, yeah I bet he was a thumber!
My first guitar teacher was a clasical spanish player in zaragoza spain... Any time I would come even close to putting the thumb over he would freak out. To this day the very middle of my neck always gets wore out. I do play with the thumb tho. I have had MANY teachers.
The guy who got me to start using the thumb was a blues and rock guy from detroit who was trying to teach me hendrix chords.
Nice! Useful info!
Thanks Kyle, I'm going to try thumb over chords again,
I hope my closed hand tip helps!
Gone through the spiel. Hit the first advert and I still don’t know what chord this is about.
I tried to give it away right quick, but sorry it went over your head: Thumb-over opens up your guitar in unique ways compared to thumb behind. Both great!
I blame Andres Segovia!
I used the thumb for fretting since day one playing guitar, started in 1981..
I had seen pictures of Hendrix doing it, and it just made sense:
Why restrict yourself to 4 fretting-fingers, when you have 5?
Later, I saw Bert Jansch do it, saw him 6 times back in the 1980's when he was absolutely hammered!!
Even Joni Mitchell, the Empress of Alternate Tunings, does it!!
Classical guitarists also tend to stick to standard tunings, which, combined with the wider fretboard make thum over very difficult. Folkies however, well we do love to use them tuning pegs and come up with open(ish) tunings that make more sense to use the thumb. Richie Havens was a great example of a guitarist using alernating thumb and finger barring in open d to make those wonderful rythms...mind you he did have big hands.
I can’t seem to play the D chord without putting my thumb on the low E string. I have no business playing in the first place.
Put it on the F#!!!
It sounds so cool with the F# in the bass too
Very interesting. Also, very good presentation.
Thanks bud! Love your handle too, haha.
Hey Kyle .. Love the angle you’re taking on this topic. I could have sworn you were going to say the name Mel Bay when you said Aaron shurer. I struggle with the wrap around NOT so much for the F chord, but more for the Bb (4 chord) when in the key of F. Any workarounds there? I do have small hands so it’s hard to utilize (commit to) the wrap around for anything that’s faster than some Mississippi John Hurt. Thanks for the video ❤
Dude you don't want my advice on Bb, haha. I double thumb it on the first fret. 110331 is how I do it. Those first frets are my thumb, ah! Otherwise just shift your F shape up to the 6th fret is the best I have.
Thanks Kyle. The hard part, for me isn't getting the thumb there it's playing the high strings clean without inadvertently muting them. I've been struggling with this for a year or so. Trying to play like Gil Landry in Satisfied on TH-cam see 1:02 into the video. Then there is the G6 chord the Gypsy Jazzers use which I'm guessing is learn by watching and doing like you mentioned. It's 355453 as opposed to my more favored western swing shape of 3x243x. Great video!
Gypsy jazzer here - we play that chord 355455, with the 9. And we are the kings of thumb wrapping, we play that thumb, middle, middle, index, ring ring.
👍@@DSteinman Oh yeah, I forgot about the '9'. Then there is just muting the high 'E' string too, 35545x.
That's a good thing to bring up. It depends chord to chord for me, but very rarely play all six strings. I usually do some kinda of fragment on top, making it easier to hit the top strings. Just the style I've adopted over the years. Looks like you got some good tips below too. Thumbs up!
I've been trying to use my thumb, some guitars I can get a little close, I'm thinking my problem is an extreme Hitchhikers thumb. In relaxed state it curves even. With little motion it goes 90 to the rest of the thumb, closing as hard as I can I can't touch the heel , very little of my palm can make contact with my thumb tip when closing completely. I have a pronounced scoop from knuckle to nail. Anyways, I may not be able to aspire to Jimi's thumb fret work. But I can aspire to working in some Wes Montgomery thumb picking as I haven't touched a pick yet. At least I can pick up as well as down with it, can even get my thumb under the strings, especially on the ones with space.
My thumb shape may just be me making excuses, I keep trying here and there, even on tiny necks, rounded edges, my 1\2 sized practice guitar, I can't seem to. I'm gonna give these recommendations a try.
Thanks Kyle- think you struck a chord with this video!
Ha, nice. Thanks bud!
Everything has already been said, just not by everyone.
Es lebe Karl Valentin!
@@laurencefinston7036 👈👍
My thumbs bend backwards, not forwards, in the middle joint lol ...Hitchhiker's thumb. It always feels like I'm over-gripping the neck tbh
However, slightly wrapping my thumb sometimes feels comfortable. I have sold guitars with a groove in the back of the neck because it cramped my extensors, for this exact reason. I like to bend my wrist in whatever direction, flap my elbow like a classical guitarist, more range of motion is good. But fretting one or even two strings with my thumb is not usually possible because of how the joints work for me. I've tried to learn songs that called for it and couldn't really do it.
I'd say some of them are similar to me and find it more comfortable to slip into that position cradling the guitar under the first joint, and the other half are either just untrained, undisciplined or have developed technique around it like barring with it. In the first position, I personally find there isn't much of a reason to use it... but sonically speaking, it also doesn't matter much if you do. Is it good for fast chord changes? Of course not. Higher up the neck up the frets (or especially higher strings) like on an electric it is a natural hand position to bend the wrist inwards, which sticks the thumb out. At least in my personal experience. Backwards movement does also.
The thumb wants to always sort of connect with the pinky again when you close it... even on an electric, when you hold a guitar perfectly horizontal the thumb may stick out also. When you hold it diagonal like a classical guitarist, at least in my experience, the angle of my thumb matches the angle of the neck. Standing up playing also simulates this slightly, but in the case of like bob dylan for example, he maybe had some neck dive going on, who knows.
In the case of a bluegrass player, holding an instrument with a very thin neck (such as a mandolin) close to the body, will do that.
Well dang! Sounds like you might be the exception to the rule!
@@kostringworks 😂yeah... it's not an easy chord for me. If I'm sitting down, I can use every technique I know to pull it off, but it's a sisytphean task.
I have never been able to do the thumb fretting thing. It's painful.
I'm self-taught and use my thumb all the time. I still struggle with barr chords and have large hands. Eveyone is different, I guess. If it works, it works.
Fantastic video, as usual. Love the deep dives you do. As a childhood Hendrix fanatic, I always employed the thumb over. However, it did always seem like this was viewed as wrong or bad technique. Whatever works!
Thanks Nick! Yeah man exactly, whatever gets the riffs out.
Who doesn’t play thumb over? Hendrix made it a mainstay
Not saying any of that is wrong but if you can't reach that's just how it is. It's all I can do to mute the low E...
I usually use my thumb to mute the low E especially when playing the C A and D chords.
To thumb or not to thumb. That is the question.
Imagine Aaron teaching Jimi. Glad THAT didn't happen! 6:05 only a few years ago i first heard the term "cowboy chords" referring to open chords played on the first three frets like pictured here. I still am looking for the original originator of the great "There's no money above the fifth fret" Who else thought of Richie Havens?-the thumbmost of all players! I'd love to see a list of the usual 100 or so great guitarists divided into thumb vs no thumb.
Honestly, I bet it would have been an awesome thing to see those two together. I bet there's a ton of mutual respect. And yes, Richie Havens, of course! An extreme example, but what a player!
Bar chords are tougher for me. I only use them on Stairway to Heaven. Great video, Kyle!
They are harder for me for sure!
👍 kyle , interesting to think about it . was always a subject of conjecture .. i grew up in more the barre chord school.
Definitely! It was for sure “the way” things were taught when I was coming up too. Thankfully I was taking bass lessons then though 😅.
@@kostringworks i asked a teacher if it was ok to use my thumb....he said "use your nose if you have to".
Thumb over is okay for a thin neck, but bar works for both.
It’s also nice especially when playing the blues . You can thumb mute the low E when playing the A chord and get the percussive beat along with the A string . That’s when the right hand thumb is doing a steady bass or double beat bass.
th-cam.com/video/E871siMhbpM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=AhNnxd-8f53luwuu
Your full body posture changes how useful the thumb-over is. Try sitting like a classical guitarist, with your left leg raised and the guitar neck at 45 degrees to the floor. Thumb-over isn't very useful in that position. Now rest your guitar on your lap with the neck horisontal. Thumb-over is very useful in that position.
So stop telling people to use the thumb-over or not use the thumb-over. Show them what is does instead, and why people use it or don't use it.
That's def a good point! I will say that although your body posture certainly can inspire one of the other, I have no problem thumbing over, or behind at any angle.
Classic Guitar has a "standard technique" tradition that evolved since the 17th century, just as the Flameno guitar. Classical music is generally not based on Chords (or at least to the one bar one chord structure typical of Folk, Blues, and all the Pop music after WW2). Chords are mostly played through arpeggios or scales, there are only rare occasions where the left hand just hold a Chord. Typically there are melodies and counter melodies to play, the "Bass" just doesn't stay still on the fundamental note for a whole bar but tipically plays a counter melody, so you need a fully opened hand to switch between complex fingering in order to play two melodies at the same time.
In Folk, Country or Blues you instead tipically stay for a whole bar on a chord, lets say an F, then holding the F bassnote with the Thumb frees your fingers to play melodies much more easily while still holding the chord( or muting the sixth strings as you strum a C Chord). In blues/rock it allows also the bending, which is just impossible to do with the nylon strings of classical guitar.Nowadays there are colleges and Music schools that teach Jazz/Blues/Modern Music and in these genres you can find often thumb on the bassnote in formal education.
In metal/prog they made kind of a turn back to the classical guitar position with thumb behind the neck in order to have a more opened hand and be able to shred.
Different genres, different vocabularys and different techniques :)
Well put!
It’s okay. You’re just asking questions.
Jimi Hendrix did this a lot, you can let the bass note ring and do fills, it fills out the sound. Also he'd skip the 5th, and just play the octave.
Dude, yes! I spent years looking at videos and photos and I figured out that the musicians I admire never used barre chords. (With a few modern day exceptions.) You mentioned Merle Travis -- he said he held the neck like he was grabbing a hoe. I had to ignore everybody I know but I found the grip to be a comfortable, pain-free way to play.
Another point, especially playing with the pick, is that you really never need 6 strings. There's only 3 notes in a triad. So why break your hands to play notes that just muddy the chord?
Keep up the good work!
haha, I love Merle so much. What an inspiration, and yeah that's kinda what it takes to grab chords like that. Thanks for sharing and watching!
C > F going to bar makes no physical sense and key of c is central to American folk music. Most players I know in old time or bluegrass circles play it this way. Granted, most of us folk don’t have “teachers” or “books” we just learn from our community
Hey, don't come on TH-cam talking like you're from the Dukes of Hazard or something, it's embarrassing.
Segovia’s hand was too small to thumbover 😆 and Sol Hurok promoted him over Barrios Mangore, a more compelling artist. Hence Shearer’s method. Doc Watson always said he wished he’d learned the barre’d F chord, but seems like he picked pretty clean…!
Those nylon string necks are a beast to thumb too.
“Let’s get right to it” @ 9:40 😂
What kind of guitar is that ? 00?
Fraulini parlor guitar. The model is an Erma. I've got a link in the description about it somewhere.
i'm lucky
i was born with an extra thumb
Kyle…are you muting w thumb, or playing notes w thumb?
He's playing even though it looks like his thumb is right over the fret. He did mention "all the same notes as barre chord".
But the thumb-over is definitely used for muting when needed too.
Answered below, but yes I use it to mute too! Works really nice for chords where the 6th string would be clashy, like an Eb chord for example.
my mind is blown
next level
what you say is completely incorrect.
the development of the classical guitar should not be confused with that of the acoustic guitar.
classical guitar manuals written at the end of the 19th century and even before already included the thumb setting in the middle of the neck and not at the top of it, a practice considered erroneous as it did not allow for adequate mobility for movements along the neck. just look at the most important manuals by Pujol "escuela razonada de la guitarra" and others.
musicians like Llobet at the beginning of the 20th century, and especially Andres Segovia, in the 20s and after, contributed to bringing attention to the instrument, bringing it into large concert halls.
the acoustic guitar, on the other hand, developed according to completely different guidelines.
i am a classical guitarist but i love both worlds having studied acoustic guitar for years, when i teach fingerpicking i still consider the classical setting more solid and flexible which has many advantages. Then no problem to play this type of positions using the other approach. So definetely u have not to wait the 50’s to see those changes.
Apart from that a lot of self trained musicians play and played amazingly without that kind of learning simply because the stuff they played didn’t need the skills that a certain kind of tecnhique gives you
I’m not sure you made it through the whole vid cause I did mention that shearer wasn’t the first to teach this by any means. But thanks for the continued education, fun stuff!
You're talking about musical instruction in Spain, not in the U.S. The most popular U.S. instruction book from the 19th C that I'm aware of, Henry Worrall's, says rest the thumb by the low string. I do not believe there was any significant awareness of Spanish techniques in the U.S. until Segovia. I also take issue with your snobbism. I agree that Spanish position lends itself to the music that was developed by musicians using that grip, but it is hardly superior outside of that niche. Compare Rev Gary Davis playing Slow Drag with John James attempting it in barre positions. James is very talented but his left hand positions are absurd -- he crosses his fingers! Not singling out James, but generally I've found barre position ragtime players seem to have to work so hard to play with their left hand that their rhythm -- the most important part -- is washed out.
@ I’m not a snob, i just talk for personal experience. I graduated in classical guitar at a conservatory of music. If you play in the first positions of the instruments everythings fine, but try to play Aguado’s Rondó keeping your thumb Up. The we can talk again ahah. For sure in folk, bluegrass ecc music u don’t have that necessity
@gianmarcoboncompagni Sounds like you are pretty ignorant about American music if you think everything is played in first position. The snobbism is assuming that your way is superior, even in the face of such ignorance. Not your fault - you probably had it beaten into the back of your hand with a meter stick.
@@townhell Well...Spanish Technique became firmly entrenched in The States (and Europe). Mel Bay's guitar technique 'Orchestral Chord Systems for Guitar 1947 - (which taught millions who would become Rock and Folk musicians for a whole two generations) is solely based on Spanish Technique and Classical positions of the hand. It is why John Lennon and so many others of that generation don't play thumb over - if they didn't learn straight from the books they were influenced second hand by them. That is the answer to the video's question. Nearly all guitar manuals/teaching were based on Classical playing. 'Folk Music' by definition wasn't.
I've been doing this since the,1960s.
"I guarantee you a hundred per cent of you out there can do this." I guarantee you they can't! I have the kind of hitchhiker's thumb that bends backwards further than forwards, and I know I'm not the only one. I can't fret with my thumb at all, and it's not for want of trying over the past thirty years! But if anyone else in the same situation is feeling bad, don't: part of finding your voice on an instrument is finding how to make it work for you. You need to use your thumb to replicate the way that other guitarists have played songs, but the truth is that you don't have to replicate them. Django Reinhardt became one of the most influential guitarists of his era with only two fully functional fingers, after all.
Yo! Thanks for the motivation for folks! Question for you as I’m always trying to be a better teacher: that part of the video was just meant to practice gripping your neck like a bat or a stick. Because of your hitchhikers thumb, can you really not do that? Thanks for watching and I appreciate your insight!
Clearly has nothing to do with that being not great technique for most people (people I have noticed tend to end up pulling the strings out of tune when they use their thumb that way and usually their finger end up pressed down way harder too because most people can't push straight down with their fingers on a D or C chord while simultaneously thumbing a root or altered bass note) not to mention the modern neck shapes we enjoy ( I have played a Gibson acoustic owned by a member of the sons of the pioneers and surprise it has a V or A shaped neck not comfortable to wrap your hands around.
it's the Keef method of chords for 5 strings!
Yeah, also you can look up any random picture of Jimmy Page, Hendrix (Clapton or any blues player) and you will see the thumb over the top
11:55 Rheumatologist and orthopedic surgeons are over the moon seeing this. Thumb over introduces a lot of unnecessary tension in the hand. Also there are a lot of historical inaccuracies about classical guitar history and pedagogy in the video. The instrument the young lady is playing in the painting is know today as a baroque guitar. It only had 5 courses so it had a much thinner neck than today’s guitars. Many historical methods for the instrument suggests supporting the thumb to the side of the neck similar to a violinist, it was not used to play notes. Methods for other early fretted instruments with wider necks, such as the lute, teach thumb on the back of the neck.
I've played both ways and disagree with you. Less tension actually, especially since I wear extra large gloves.
@ it could be that your guitar is too low, or the neck is at too low of an angle. If you are playing electric, use a strap even when sitting. I have rather large hands myself and changing how I hold my guitar changed my relationship with the instrument completely.
Pretty sure that capo ain’t a schub c1 b looks like a bloody high end and big $$$$$ Paige PaigePro ETI 6-string Gold Acoustic Guitar Capo ! Am I wrong????
You're kinda right, and kinda not! It's not a Paige, it's an old Yamaha CP200. They go for shitload online, but I found mine for $40. So cheaper than just about anything you'd find in the cradle style today.
Ok thx from Melbourne Australia love your channel
Russian 7 string guitarists have ben using their thumb for 200 years,for the 2 bottombass notes. It's nothing new-and a lot of modern players use it(Richard Thompson come to mind).Check out the open G action at 2:54,with thumb use,natch. th-cam.com/video/Xsil3gpujHc/w-d-xo.html
It looks like a C7 chord. 🤨🎶🎵🎵
Over rated the right hand is far more important
Equally as important. Developing a great vibrato is what separates the good from great guitar guitarists: That’s all left hand. I do agree that the right hand is overlooked!!
@ what good is thumb over if you can not walk a bass line using the thumb on your plucking hand ?I always looked at people who bragged about their thumb over as being wrong headed best to find your way find the pocket trust your rhythm feel the tune thumb over or not most of these dudes who brag about thumb over are missing the point !
You just had to throw the banjo in there! You didn’t use your thumb when playing the banjo do you? I was that just advice for training your thumb?
Ha, sorry! I'm actually gonna make a banjo video for guitar players and I'll talk about this, but no I don't use it for fretting on banjo. I do however, hang it over the top.
@ what style of banjoing do you do? I tried that thumb over business yesterday, I need a new thumb.
@ clawhammer and two finger mainly. You’ll get it man, just take it slow. It’s a flexibility thing, doesn’t come in a day. I still can’t touch my toes tho, so I feel you.
@@kostringworks nice I play clawhammer and a two finger up stroke combo kinda in the style of Virgil Anderson and George Gibson. A bit of a feat for someone on the west coast of Canada.
My hands are too small. No, really. I can mute with my thumb but that’s it.
Your voiceover was waaaay too quiet in the mix when you were overlaying other video/music clips. You gotta turn everything else down a good bit so that we can hear what you're saying as you narrate.
Sorry, not trying to be a jerk. I love the video and I subscribed. Keep it up! I find this stuff very interesting.
Also, regarding the subject: I've been playing guitar for 18 years or so, and I've adapted very well to my limitations, but one of the things that I've had to work around, and have never been able to do, is reach my thumb over the 6th string to fret with my thumb. My fingers are simply not long enough. I often laugh aboutthe fact that a guy with such relatively short fingers ended up being a guitarist/pianist.
@@adamtheduell word dude! Nah that’s solid advice. I def do try to keep that stuff in mind when I’m eating, but w sure I hear my voice a lot louder than you. Solid feed back; I’m def no pro with this stuff.
@@adamtheduell ha, we do what we can!! Ever tried a Gibson LG from the late 60’s? Super narrow necks.
@@kostringworks I have not! I'll have to try that out.
If you can't use all 5 digits on both hands while playing guitar... then you should learn to use all 5 digits on both hands.. like... why on earth would you limit yourself when you could just... not..?
Like, try playing a minor maj7 chord (one of my personal favourite chords, especially as a iv. For example let's use CminMaj7) voiced like
7
8
8
9
X
8
Without your thumb...
It's *doable,* but so uncomfortable, and you have to bring your fucking thumb all the way up to finger it anyway, might as well just fret the low E string with it, rather than trying to bar your index over 2 frets just to hit the 2 E strings(which, admittedly, I also do for some voicings)... like some chords voicings just need the thumb...
I guess some people are just happy with baby harmony....
Have fun, but keep your thumb over it.
😎