No. *Quarterstaff* are hybrid forms of *ranged* + *melee* ranged weapons, while MACE is PURE MELEE no magical increased ranges etc. > *STAFF* is within the _"Quarterstaff"_ dun forget it! > Melee sucks. > A Tank can NOT a be a TANK even if you want to build so,..it is NOT possible all is the same limiting gameplay. ALL classes have the same problem later on. No light, medium or hard dealing wwith dmg,..all deal hard and nothing between to build for. Worriers can NOT play their class typical gameplay.
And it sucks that SKILLS are bound to weapons,... If smo wants as a worrier, to use a Staff but HIS skills are now locked... even if he draws down his str/damage doing so,... EXTRA limiting free building like this.
Devs: "we want melee to be new and fun and just as viable as Ranged and magic!" Also Devs: Makes endless amounts of on death mechanics that spawn pools of death around every single enemy in every act
@@felixmustermann790 You get it. Dying to the big frost or fire explosions that quite literally tell you when they explode? Your fault. But man I've been off screen DD'd a bunch of times now without even seeing the enemy that did it
They should just make the skills feel more similar to range characters who can cast and move much more fluidly. Im playing sorc and play very close range, in fact i feel like the more i try to get away from bosses the worse things are in general. So the fact is not that melee is “bad” its more so that the way warrior is designed is bad, if they make the animations and skills more flexible like casters can cast and move the class like monk should be in a better place to start.
I don't think I've heard a better persuasive argument against on death effects than this one. I think whoever at GGG is in love with these modifiers would wake up a bit.
ive been compiling a bunch clips of me dying to poorly indicated death bombs. Its actually insane how bad they are sometimes, some are literally hidden under foliage on the map, and the ONLY way I would have found out is because I can watch it back in slowmo, which BLEW MY MINND. Its the only thing i die to as lvl79 merc, like why have these annoyaing bombs at all.
sounds like juicing solves that challenge issue... i run content as melee, if i dont kill it fast enough, i might actually die... and i have invested into defenses.
Playing a Titan in SSF, currently level 86 and really starting to get demoralised and burnt out with it. A major part of that might be trying to get the fourth ascendancy because that last floor in Sekhema is so horrendously melee unfriendly with the terrain layout and the heavy focus on ranged mobs that you have to approach over narrow bridges. I can reliably get to floor 4 in a good state, then I repeatedly get my head kicked in before I even reach the boss. I'd try ascending via Ultimatum, but every 10 round key I've put in has ended prematurely due to the game crashing. I can't help but feel the game is stuck in a weird place between the slower, more deliberate combat that the developers repeatedly spoke of, and the rapid pace that PoE1 has embraced. Mapping doesn't feel too bad on its own, but mechanics like Breach and Delirium suddenly turn it into requiring you to blow up screens or die. It feels awkward. Seeing videos/screenshots of casters with absurd amounts of ES blasting things from range also feels bad when you're running around with 2.5k HP and need to go toe-to-toe with everything.
I'm in the same boat, I think we rolled the wrong class.. Warrior is probably the least tanky class, the slowest, hardest to ascend.. boss damage is decent but not even as good as a lot of other builds. Armor is worse than ES or evasion too
I dropped my warbringer when I got to maps. My friends seemed to be playing a different game entirely, I still largely seemed to be stuck in act 1 with how the game treated me. Got tired of dying and rolled a ranger.
Personally, River Hags were the worst feeling enemy in the game as a monk. They're incredibly tanky for a mage-type enemy, and their bubble slow is incredibly difficult to get away from. If that thing even clips you, you immediately have to roll out of the way and run as far as possible or you end up getting insta-killed. Fighting one of them sucked, but if multiple River Hags were on the screen at once, I would straight up disengage and get as far away from them as possible because even if I managed to prevail, it would be a slog of a fight.
I agree the drowning orbs are absolutely ridiculous. Way overtuned and good luck when the get a temporal bubble as a rare and twinned on maps. Insane lol
I'm waiting for duelist to come out. Would be nice for armor to get a buff just to make melee better. Armor should get resistance to slams and aoe ground effects because it sucks to be melee when all the enemies you fight at face to face range immediately explode or drop ground effects and kill you.
I really think when axes, swords, spears and maybe even daggers or flails come out, it'll be fine. We'll get a pretty large group of skills there that aren't slam builds. Invoker is incredibly fun to play, so when dedicated bleed skills and whatever they're doing with the others should be fine.
@@bertjohnson401 I play cold invoker with multibell shenanigans and it's feeling strong. Guess the character is going to buying loot that goes rarity and CI because that's OP right now. All the permutations of warrior don't look fun to me at all. Warriors should be able to trade big hits and have hyper armor. just slamming the whole screen so you don't have to interact with the short comings of having to deal with the mobs feels lame. Monk feels like much better melee rn because you fight the mobs while navigating the enemies' abilities.
Kripparian pretty much just said armor is even more useless than in PoE1. They need to fix it. We can't have years of armor not doing what it says on the character sheet and melee being shit again. This is as high priority as the rarity issue.
100% it's the comparison, Armor is trash, so Warrior doesn't feel that tanky. So I'm not as tanky as a Mage.... on a slow tanky looking character with 11k armor and 4k health..... So we have way worse clear, way less movement, die more to on-death effects. are way less tanky than a class that should be squishy. So what are we doing here? The class fantasy can't carry you for too long until you realise that your way far behind others people in the league and gear just gets more and more expensive. This needs to be addressed. armour needs changing, on-death effects need to be removed or toned down by at least 70% and liek Tri says in the video, movement needs to be added, Maces feel too slow when you're been rushed by 10 enemies moving 4x faster than the player. I can accept having worse clear speed, at the cost of been way more tanky and slow. what i can't accept is been bottom of the barrel at literally everything.
@@RelentlessZen This is 100% it. Warrior feels so slow and clumsy. Act 1, he feels great. Act 2 you really start to struggle, Act 3 I quit as my warrior. Went with monk, while that is better, both are very hard to level and build. The game is 100% easier as ranged and that is not okay. Warrior is far behind so many of the classes already. PoE 1 Warrior is so much better.
Has nobody noticed that the mouse targeting is wrong, and the impact this has on some melee abilities? Targeted attacks make your character face the direction of the highlighted enemy, but for targetless skills (AOEs and abilities like Rolling Slam) your character faces the ground-based location of the cursor. Which is to say, if you're mouse-hovering over an enemy, you're not targeting them at all - you're targeting the ground behind them relative to the camera. In the case of Rolling Slam, this means that unless you ALWAYS target the ground at your enemy's feet with all your attacks, you will absolutely roll in the wrong direction - you'll be happily clicking directly on an enemy with LMB, then you'll pop rolling slam and veer off at a weird angle. In the case of general AOE effects, it means you might actually miss an enemy outright if the AOE range is small, because you're not actually aiming where you think you're aiming. The same applies for blocking - though I don't know if any block abilities actually factor in character direction; when you start blocking, you block in the direction of your cursor... not the direction of the highlighted enemy. I posted a thread about this, but nobody even registered it, like nobody noticed why some of their melee movement is misaligned at times.
@@aspikbardamu6040 Control scheme doesn't matter, aim helper still can direct your skill 90/180 degrees from the target because there's a little corner of "wall" near cursor.
@@NicholasBrakespear i have noticed it a lot with the bell for monk - what helps a bit for melee is to remove the "move to attack" but still it is clunky
same goes for targetting ball lightning with lightning warp. died and consequently failed like 50% of my waystones due to randomly not targetting BL (usually, it locks on non-cullable enemy, does nothing and the character just stands there, handwaving menacingly).
My main concern as melee is the excessive amount of zoning abilities bosses use on screen. They sit on AoE while three other whirlwinds are dancing around and stuff falling off the sky. Special mention to Xyclucian flying away to other locations while leaving the ground frozen or electrified, resetting your stun meter...
Currently playing my Titan feels a bit like opening a combination lock while fighting in order to maybe do decent damage. If you hit the right combination of buttons in the right order and land your hit after 2 seconds, then congrats, you win. If you miss because the boss moved out of the way during your decade long backswing, too bad. On my crossbow Dead Eye, I do many times as much damage pushing a single button repeatedly in the same amount of time. It's no contest, the Dead Eye clears and boss kills at a speed that leaves the Titan in the dust, and always did from lvl 1 onward. I do think there is more of a Mace skill problem than a Warrior problem (and maybe just a general lack of melee skills right now), but the Mace is supposed to be the Warrior's signature weapon. This is how they intended a Warrior to play, and I can't help but feel like they designed the concept of this class without asking whether or not it would work against the creatures of PoE2.
I think its not that melee in general sucks. For example, monk feels great. While a lot of its skills are mid range, being up close and personal does feel good on a monk. Problem is mace skills. A lot of them feels clunky to use. Rolling slam doesnt feel good. Giving it a bit more AOE and responsiveness would've been great. Giving earthquake more base damage, a bit more AOE and 3 sec delay instead of 4 would've been great buff. Adding "sticking" to some of the single target skills, so that smallest movements from elite mobs and bosses did not counted as a miss.
One of my many problems with Warrior is Boneshatter. It's a fantastic clearing ability but you have to actively gimp yourself to be able to use it. If you spec into stun buildup and have a mace with increased stun buildup, the enemies just don't get Primed for Stun, they are stunned outright. I'm not even talking about Titan's Crushing Blows here. Yes, in theory it's pretty nice to have situational skills that are very impactful when you have an opportunity to use them, but in practice I found that annoying af. There're other clearing abilities on Warrior like Stampede + armor explosions, but Boneshatter is by far the best... when it works.
Another thing, that I think is holding the Warrior back right now, it that he is alone in his corner of the skill tree. What this means is that in practical terms he is limited to only his own classes skills. A witch or sorceress can cherry pick from both lists. A monk can easily pick up a spell if they want. Rangers and Mercs aren't perfectly compatible but close enough that's I've seen a streamer swap a ranger to a crossbow without even realizing they were going off class. So one the adjacent classes are filled in the Warrior will have some more flexibility in their choices, but right now they are by far the most option limited class in the game. Once Marauder is in the game, you might have the option to put an axe in weapon slot two and grab a skill that fills a missing niche, or even build an off stat and grab a sword or flail. As for on death effects... That is kind of weird. I recall an interview where they said that the only reason on death effects existed at all, is that players in PoE1 were so zoomy, that they needed then as the only way for a mob to present a threat. So for them to have so many of them i PoE2 seems like it must mean that they themselves think they missed the mark in limiting zoom. Maybe something to ask about in your next interview after their (well deserved) vacation?
TLDR, half the warriors skills (axes, flails, ffs there might even be some druid skills that would go hard on warrior xD) arent in the game yet which greatly hinders how it feels to play a warrior because of lacking mobility in current skills or variety (thats why monk is fine)
@@felixmustermann790 Basically. We have seen successful mace melee builds, but it's usually a high tier player who is known to grind hard in PoE1 already, far past what regular players can hope to achieve. Axes will be an insanely massive patch. Adding melee staff skills that complement warrior, also a good place to look. Maces have never been popular even in PoE1, not compared to swords or axes.
@@LV9_x The trouble with looking to staff skills as a Warrior is that they are Int/Dex based, while the Warrior is a pure Str class, (or more accurately, the Mace is a pure Str weapon), which is why adding the classes closer on the stat tree will be a potential boost.
Attack speed works with maces, but several warrior abilities have a modifier to Total Attack Time, which happens after attack speed modifiers have been calculated. Even with 10000% increased attack speed, Sunder will still have 1.4 second attack time. Rolling Slam will have 1.5 seconds added.
Yes that’s what I thought. That also means that reduced attack speed also has less impact I guess. But that is not very intuitive, it was completely different in poe1
But I found out in practice that a 1.05 ApS and 1.27 ApS maces feel very different in mapping. The flat added time sucks but a good bonus to attack speed is still noticeable.
As a level 80 Titan. I can say this.. a lot of the skills have a way too slow cast time. Some feel horrible to use.. Some don't and feel really decent. Yet I wish Earthquake was just a normal Ground Stomp.. and the hold charge moves just feel off.
The charge skills feel really good on controller. Problem is you then can’t reliably leap far without it aiming at an enemy far away, otherwise it leaps a foot forward. Not sure if other skills be questionable on controller, warrior and otherwise.
I think part of the problem is the dominance of ES over armor and evasion at the moment. Caster classes that don't even need to be in melee are at the same time tankier than melee, which does.
Warrior is also being plagued by massive bugs that are affecting its qol. Aftershocks dont damage enemies if they are from rolling slam, EDIT: it looks like the herald of ash explosions do work its just a super tiny aoe, for combust on infernal cry its either bugged or the dmg is just so low that its impossible to notice. Tons of times monsters are left with a tiny sliver of hp and the explosions of mobs near them would have made the difference. Also, heavy stun shouldn't knock back enemies. It pushes them insanely far away from you, and its extremely clunky to follow up on with damage. Sometimes the stuns also just push them out of the aoe of your abilities
Those explosions scale differently. With Herald of Ash, if your not doing a gigaton of damage to overkill white mobs, the ignite from herald won't do much damage. The Infernal Cry explosion does not scale from weapon damage, it does flat fire +10% more per monster power, so explosions from white mobs will not do that much damage but I would imagine generic fire damage increases or "damage with Warcries" scales it. From what i understand Armor Explosions deals the physical damage from the hit that triggers it converted to fire while Fiery Death does 10% of the maximum life of the target as fire damage.
@@sheabishop6200same I switch to resolute technique because it felt like my attacks were missing a lot more than it should. Now it really never misses so that feels better.
Nah man, you don't need to build movement into every melee skill, you just need to give Warrior enough defenses so they survive. Enemy damage overall is too spiky, enemies need to hit for less, while living longer, that's what makes the combat interactions in the game shine, this is why campaign feels better. You are correct, monsters should be dangerous when they are alive, they should not die in a faction of a second and then one-shot you with death effects. Basically give the warrior more defenses, make monsters hit for less while living for longer, and you have already fixed melee, and most of the endgame with it.
If I invest in attack speed, my abilities should feel noticably faster, idk why the flat added attack time to skills is not reducible. The warrior section of the passive tree needs more defensive options to mitigate physical damage. Armor should not be this bad at mitigating something that people would intuitively think would mitigate effectively.
If you can armour break and heavy stun a boss, seismic cry, and then sunder them, they will die as long as your weapon has good damage. That is how PoE2 was described pre EA launch. You use a variety of skills to do large amounts of damage. It just feels bad that other weapon bases devolve into press one button.
You should be able to one button or multi button, there's no reason that passes the "seems arbitrary" sniff test for why you shouldn't be able to viably do both in the name of versatility. People loved flicker strike in PoE 1, it had god knows how many build variations and was a one button build aside from particularly tough enemies where you'd pop a vaal aura or berserk etc. Alternatively you had manabond hierophant which was a 3 or 4 button build for deep delving and puzzle boxes... There's nothing wrong with either avenue, but trying to force players into either avenue always just feels terrible when you have as many weapon limits as the skills currently have e.g. flicker being staves only and unable to generate it's own charges has basically killed that skill's diversity for no good reason.
@@turbot4rd404 there is a reason. it's the type of game they want to make. poe 1 is the one button kill all zoom across the entire map kind of game and poe 2 is the more grounded, combo oriented game does that mean they fully achieved what they wanted already? no, of course not, it's an early access of a direction nobody has ever really gone in with ARPGs
The trial of Sekhemas honour system is my BIGGEST frustration with the game right now. I play as a monk that's VERY similar to your monk build and I just can't avoid all the hits I need to avoid to get through 3 bosses with afflictions on my character. If it wasn't required for the ascendancy points, I wouldn't engage with it at all.
You need to buy or roll a relic with honour resistance. You can get a tapestry relic which has 40% res. It caps at 75%. When you're capped your character will die before your honour disappears, it's such a huge buff. You can literally stand still being hit by 10 enemies and your honour will be ticking down 1 point at a time. You can even tank trap damage and boss hits. The other modifier you can get is maximum honour. I start the trials with 7k+ honour.
It’s easier to do trial of sekhemas than random aoe boons on trial of chaos, especially when you have resistance relics, shrines than can restore honor etc. I did 3 floor with max honor at the end on my monk.
@@anotherenglishtutorI feel like honor should just be reworked into an extra lives system Because currently the amount of relics you need to make the content not insufferable requires such significant investment for what effectively is required ascendancy system Makes me just leave to play path of exile 1 since it’s substantially less CBT to get going and make a viable build
@@tylerulfmann4586 ?? When you did your 1st/2nd ascendancy, you didn't get any relics? I used them for my 3rd and 4th ascendancies. I never bought any relics. They were easily acquirable in the trial from mobs/chest.
I am really bummed out that there are only 2 melee classes in the game right now, I am more of a melee kind of guy and have been having a blast with monk, but warrior is so slow compared to the high octane movement of the monk (ik warrior got leap slam, but that skill feels like shit, why can enemies hit me while I am on the air?) I cant wait for the spear and axes and the sword to come out, literally the top classes I want to try out at least
I feel this. I think out of the rest of the characters to come, most will be melee. The probably did that on purpose to try and fix as much as they can before they add more
I started as warrior and wanted to be mace and shield. I figured I'd be max defensive and just be slow but tanky. Got through all of Act I except final zone without a single problem. Was having a blast, but then the on death puddles and density in tight quarters of that zone kept wrecking me. Finally could get to the boss, died 50+ times kept running out of heals or would get stunlocked when surrounded during the fog part. Respec'd completely mutiple times and grinded over and over for better gear, but still could not get passed that boss. I decided to try monk with quarterstaff and I breezed through act 1 with worse gear and way lower level. About to finish Act 3 on monk and it's been a blast. For both being melee it is cool that they are different, but they also feel like I am playing a 100% different game one crazy hard and one fun.
My personal problem, is that we were giver, hammer, bigger hammer, and staff. as an introduction to melee in poe 2, most of which, are slow to start, the related skills are even slower than that. So when you start the game, you fly through the air, get smacked 20 times and die before your attack actually happens. It's bad, it feels bad. And the skill gems at the levels you get them feel like they didnt even try to make a smooth progressions. Now don't get me wrong, if you stick with it and keep playing melee feels waaaaaaay better around level 15-20 especially when you have a weapon. But early game is a turbo turnoff in so many ways.
Yeah that's my experience, once you hit weapon type breakpoints and start making magic items. Once you find a %physical damage weapon of the next tier you're set. The one thing in worried about is that once they add in all the weapon types. Finding bases will get many times worse. Meaning those 15 two handed maces I had to go through to find a damage roll will take waay longer to find.
As a melee doing ritual in a tiny hallway while getting body blocked by mobs, chased by a tornado without any movement skills, feels like you gotta kill them before they kill you. Can't even see what's going on half the time.
Warrior getting basically no "Mace Strike" replacements and Mace Strike being a static pile of crap is a lot of it. Monk gets to flow towards the enemy attacking the whole time or gets to teleport around like it's Dragon Ball Z hitting things. Elemental effects and awesomeness comes with these attacks the entire time it's happening. You can literally teleport across the screen and blow people up or just to close the distance. Meanwhile, Warrior gets basically rooted in place to use a basic attack that looks like and feels like the basic attack that it is. Sometimes it stuns guys and lets you use an attack that is slightly more mobile and makes them explode, which is kind of neat, but if you were planning on wading into the enemy like an Escrima Master or slamming people with a building like Reinhardt, we don't do that here. You yell at people or maybe do some slam things which are often more glorified ranged attacks.
Something that I feel is important is the distinction between mindless slaughter of enemies - and constant high concentration focus. Both extremes are too much. I need to be challenged, but I also want to be able to play 8 hours in one go. Taking a break every hour to decramp hands and unwind is not something to aspire to.
The charge abilities need to pass through targets, and targeting mobs with indicators needs to be slightly more easy (wider distance of curser from the target to still register the target).
It feels Like their solution to meele was completly overstat meele weapons and skills. And feels way more rewarding while still risky. The issue is. You can Just use the overstatted meele weapons and meele skills at range. Ignoring the risk and getting the reward. Using heralds and so on.
My biggest problem with melee classes (In any game, but especially in PoE2) is that unlike with ranged classes, you have to worry about even more problems: I'm stuck inside the minions how do i get out?! When i play my sorceress or ranger, they fire projectiles at the enemy faster than they reach me and i'm always one step ahead of them. Or away from them. But with melee classes i suddenly have to worry about armor (Who uses armor lol) and evasion. I can't move around like i want to. I expected monk to be like a shaolin, with crazy 360 no scope melee kills [That's not how a quarterstaff works] and somersaults and flips and zoomin around groups of enemies faster than the human eye can follow, while dodging every single attack and taking 99.99% reduced damage what with all the armor the man's wearing. Same for warrior. I wanted a mountain. A literal mountain, where trees grow on and goats live on and which cannot be penetrated by your average weapon of choice. It's a fucking mountain. Question is, why do melee classes feel NOTHING like what i just said? Instead, they only last 3 seconds in the action, which is around how long i last with ladies. Why? If they could actually survive like i was told they could, they'd feel much better. Right now they're slow (WHY IS MONK SO SLOW) and yes they deal trillions of damage if played right but big deal, so does deadeye ranger. But she doesn't die cause she's a kilometer away.
dude, wait until you get the last two abilities in the monk gem skill tree. I been using gathering the storm and the other one to the left of that in combo, (even though it's technically not part of the buidl and I do horrible damage with that skill) enemies cannot even touch me. Plus, after leaving a shocked ground I can use syphoning strike to get some juicy damage and shock explosion and keep moving. have been trying to get better dmg though
I've been testing different melee options and so far... the best Warrior build I've found is actually an infernalist witch... using templar gear... God i love this game
I've been playing Warrior and boy oh boy the adrenaline rush I felt on the Act 1 boss was one of the best gaming experiences I've ever felt. Ya I died like 20 times, but I never gave up I just kept trying without leveling up more or gearing up more until I just beat him with skill, memorizing his patterns. I really enjoy the extra challenge of playing a Warrior in any ARPG, for example Diablo 4 was challenging during the beta and I loved it.
Another thing that is a hard hit for warrior is there is no life on the tree...while sorc and monk have a ton of juicy ES nodes to grab. Not sure why GGG removed life but not ES.
After death effects would be cool if they were telegraphed like the red exploding corpse, or if they didn't directly do massive damage. Also, I find death effects like 500% more common than in poe 1 and we don't have good ways to dodge them because we have no zooming movement like blade dance or flame dash.
GGG during POE1: We understand all the issues that melee faces so we're going to make big design changes in POE2 melee to make it more fun. GGG during POE2: So we repeated all the mistakes of POE1 melee and we also removed some of your defenses. Sorry, not sorry. Also, I'll add a good old joke from the POE forums, "melee is fine as long as you don't play melee."
My favorite moment so far.....getting shot and stunned from off screen running a T15, then while stunned, getting shot again and the map is over. Never saw what hit me, was off the bottom of my screen.
Attack Speed not working with maces is by design. Slams have a "+ x seconds to total attack time" value on the gems. It's literally shown on every gem. You can't shorten this period with skill/attack speed cause it's a value that's added to the attack time AFTER reductions. You can argue whether it's a good idea or not but it's definitely by design and not a bug.
You're 100% on the money with your first initial point here Tri. The reason warrior feels so terrible to play currently has ALOT to do with the fact you're hard locked into animations where some are completely or almost completely static. I did considerable testing of this, what spells you could animation cancel, combo from, sequences etc.. Currently the recovery portion of the majority of animations is FAR too long and the only way to cancel these is to dodge roll out. Which feels absolutely terrible, as you're essentially replacing the static recovery section of the animation with another animation that you're not able to be aggressive with. The dynamic movement you said is absolutely what needs to happen, but furthermore abilities need to be able to be combo'd and chained together in these recovery periods to have more fluidity. Don't get me wrong though, Mace needs to be slow, but having some room to combo another ability or two to make interesting sequences is what mace desperately needs, alongside the dynamic movement that other classes have, this will massively address the feel of the class and really make melee feel powerful, fluid and engaging. There are obviously other aspects of the game that are incredibly melee unfriendly as well that need to be looked at, but the movement is 100% top priority i believe.
Melee is good, but being sluggish slammer and charging in place for 3 seconds is awful when mobs gang on you as fast as possible. I hope when swords come in, we gat much snappier and fluid melee on warriors like monks are. PS: congrats on the sponsor
Without movement skills like in PoE1 not only does it feel slow but it makes melee worse. It also doesn't help that monsters swarm and hit fast. Without closing the gap fast melee will always be the worst choice. Even as a monk with movement attacks I ended up using mostly storm wave
There’s leaping smash and the quarter staff ice evade that warriors can very easily start with. I main maces, but my dodge button is the Str /dex/int unique 1/4staff on my back with the ice evasion. Coincidentally, the 1/4 use spike attack tends to travel the same distance as a dodge or ice evade. Meaning if you can freeze a fool in melee range you can dodge back and the Ice Spike’s sweet spot should be right on who you froze.
There is another problem to melee: the fact that the more dangerous mobs are long ranged or mid ranged mobs. I mean, I play sorceress and it is not the melee mobs I fear, it is those who can wreck me from a distance. And I do not have to get in close range to deal damage (except for the fuckers with Proximal Tangibility). If I had to then it would be even more deadly. I feel that armour is undertuned vs evasion and energy shield. If you play a tank, you should be immune to a lot of things, except if you get stunned or another ailment.
I honestly think they need to start copying Warframe's melee system, particularly the mobility allowed by it, and the range. If they, for example, allowed melee skills to be used without a movement penalty, and allowed us to build into upwards of 1-2 extra meters of default range, it would really make the system feel amazing. Freedom of movement and more forgiving ranges would really improve the feel and safety of melee.
Melee needs to fulfill certain fantasies, either a disruptor massive strength guy, who stuns and slaps away enemy attacks, and throws them around, knocks them back with a splash, ragdolling the enemy. Then there's the mosquito melee, where you jump around and are basically ranged but you jump in and out of the enemy range to slice and dice.
It's actually funny that as someone who has played a sorceress and now witch, I find that the best way to do 95% of the bosses is to make sure you stay in melee range because if they're using the melee attacks you can either dodge or eat a half dozen of them before you die as compared to if you stand at range where you will cop all the insta-death range skills. It's such a weird dynamic because in the rest of the game you want to keep some space and kite but come the boss fights it's just rambo charge. Luckily most of the bosses don't have a DoD impact.
For some reason I only just now remembered in TERA the axe wielding character that had a ton of charge attacks could move while charging. Then you could spend some of your points on getting an upgrade to allow you to reduce the movement penalty. I don't see why they couldn't add this in as well. That being said... Shield is strong. But then everything you can do with a shield apart from shield charge is weak af.
I just can't believe they thought the obviously anti-melee mechanic that is Sanctum would be a good way to get your first ascendancy points. Ranged characters can just do it right away, melee ones need to be 5-10 levels above the zone level and get very good gear. Also the 4th floor is almost literally impossible for Titan slammers- a lot of ranged mobs there have faster attack animations than a single slam and they hit like a truck.
If they made armor give a percentage of it towards your resistances and cound for more percentage mitigation. I think itd be better. But that my opinion
The biggest nightmare I've ran into as a Warrior was a map with Crowbell with extra shield and a slow field. Not only it took me a good minute to break his shield, but he ran away twice regenerating it twice. Could use a bit more love on Warriors to deal with such a thing.
I think you're missing something, how armor and evasion work. The damage on death effect and area effects are so high that, having armor is useless, and evasion as far I understand doesn't block damage in the area. So you need to have other mitigation systems, like health and energy shield. But warriors don't have a lot of access to ES, and monks don't have access to health, and go increase EN to block this area effect you need to get out of your way to have enough to sustain the end game damage. I think having more health nods in the skill tree and changing how armor works would be a great advance. Because the safest way to play monk right now is to kill everything before the area effect hits you.
Gotta be careful wishing for more creature tankiness. These maps are HUGE, and any increase in creature tankiness means you'll be stuck in a single map for an even longer time, and remember if you die it's over so long maps+tanky mobs+1 portal is an easy formula for player frustration.
Make close range turret that specializes in stuns and massive singular hits Immediately nerf the most, if not only, successful build within hours of release. Dont just nerf it, rip it's heart out. Release a shadow nerf to armor, said class's largest defense mechanic. Make sure you implement a rampant amount of on-death effects, a mechanic from your previous game that is wildly beloved by everyone Profit
i believe they are trying to make mace the slow hard hitting class since they have other melee classes coming out for other melee playstyles such as the bear and spears. the mace skills need some tankyness factor built in for the slowness of attacks
The main issue with melee is the lack of playstyles available to the player. You either play slow big bonk or zippy fast twirly staff. There is no inbetween in terms of playstyle and weapons. So, once GGG introduces the new classes and weapon types. We might see an improvement in melee overall.
My only gripe bout game is they start you in middle of tree but lock you into one side. If they gonna start us there make all starting allocations around him open.
Studying my warrior, the warrior is very polished in terms of combat and skills. Now, the biggest problem the warrior has right now, which i hope they fix as they add more weapons, is his ability to have effect damage other than raw physical/aoe damage. Bleed is a big example as to why his stat tree has to be condensed, maybe do the same they did with poe1 where you get static stats per level (considering, you're locked out of using warrior's blood until end game gear becomes available, since strength is tripled by using 2h weapons with 1h). They can maybe put 1 point to all per level, because it doesn't give you alot of options until end game. Other classes can branch out but if u branch out with the warrior, you cannot make any damage until its too late because u need the damage during the acts as well. A full strength warrior can become monotonous real quick and not able to manifest the different styles he has of combat. Warrior is very tanky with 1h and shield as well as 2h and shield, but 1 handed feels like its only good in dual weild, and even then alot of the skill gems/support hinder the damage done with dual wield. They did a great thing fixing the shield, now they need to augment the damage done with 1 hand a little or make effects on hit available earlier in the passive tree. Shield wall animation feels a little too long plus u gotta slam animation that takes the same time to engage as the shield leaves u with just using a warcry to explode the wall is kind of lame. Same with fissure exploding with warcry, they either need to fix that or make it so slams feel faster, because for fast slam u only got leap slam the other slam animations are slow as hell.
Melee is.... okay... But it leaves a lot to be desired compared to the ranged peers. Armor def needs reworked. Some other small things needs adjusted as well I think. I'm currently a 75 warrior and its weird, 95% of time I'm on autopilot cause its so easy then bam. 1 monster shows up and one shots me out of no where. Maxed resistances(except chaos. but still respectable) and high armor/life. Just feels bad.
Well, the problem is that armor is the worst type of defense. It works well against smaller hits, but get mostly ignored by bigger hits. So you run around feeling invincible, then suddendly you take a crit and die. And on top of that, it needs heavy investment, only works against physical hits, and heavy armor slows you down...
Attack speed works with Maces, just not the way you think it does. There are two parts to a mace attack: The Wind-up and the Release-state. The Wind-up is NOT affected by attack speed. It's basically the thing where you lift the hammer, are static and that makes it feel so... SO slow to play. The release-state is the part that DOES work with attack speed and is basically what happens during the attack itself. This state starts the moment you (can) start doing damage with the skill. To shorten Wind-up, you would need SKILL speed, not ATTACK Speed. Skill speed, sadly, is very rare and hard to get to as a Warrior. Realistically, the highest you can achieve is 16% skill speed. What they NEED to do to fix this is let both the Wind-up as well as the Release-state scale with Attack Speed. This would make Warrior feel a LOT better.
Can the community stop saying Melee Problems. It's not Melee issues. It's Warrior issues. I know some might disagree but trust me, Monk is incredible in PoE 2. Many of what people call "Melee Issues" are not a problem on Monk. Lack of range? Monk has extra mobility and some projectiles Lack of clear? Shattering Palm and Herald of Ice Too Slow? Impossible, you get like 5 atk/s on Ice Strike or even more Tempest Flurry Too squishy? You can go Pure EV, Pure ES or a mix of Both. Invoker even gets PDR for their evasion. Even for mechanics such as Trial of the Sekhema (Sanctum) Monks don't struggle with damage and can often freeze monsters to help prevent taking damage. WARRIOR has issues. Why does every passive point that increases damage give you reduced attack speed? Why does dual wielding reduce your attack speed and damage? Why are all the skills inherently super long to cast? Why do some abilities have long periods before they activate such as Hammer of the Gods or Earthquake. Can we please start recognising and addressing the issues correctly as a community. Warrior needs fixes but right now 50% of Melee (Only Monk and Warrior xD ) feels S Tier incredible.
I mean, I'd make an argument that a big part of it is Maces are just really bad at the game as it exists due to how their skills work. But I can agree that losing attack speed for damage gains when other classes don't need to take a minus to get damage is just bad design.
Honestly, i felt mace felt fine... but I am 2 squishy when not able to move. All maces should have hyper armour where they get more dr + stun threshold
Actually Tri - as an ultra greatsword enjoyer in Elden Ring, I don't mind that mace skills have total attack time and ignore attack speed. I think some things being unique like that is fine, as long as it is balanced. The problem with melee atm is same as in poe 1 - extra damage taken by being melee simply is not scaling with our defences. It works fine in Elden Ring because you are almost always 1v1 on an enemy and so you can manage the tempo of the fight. They need to figure out a way to make mapping experience more tactical, just like how it is in campaign, or melee in poe 2 will be exactly like in poe 1 - clearing entire screen with "melee" skills like frost blades before they can touch you.
I think much of the sluggishness with melee could be addressed by allowing attack speed to actually speed up the animations of the attacks as one might intuitively expect them to. That change alone I think would be a huge QoL improvement for mace users. Great video.
it does tho, the animation time goes down the more AS you have, you can see it in the tooltips if you hover over your skills, it is VERY apparent when using 1 handed and 2 handed weapons
As a warrior trying to kill a rare with Temporal bubble or the bubble that sucks mana dry is also a real PITA. Last night in a T15 map I had a mob with the mana drain bubble that also had life regen and lightning storm. It look way too long to kill lol.
the mana ring only siphons in the blue ring segment, not when youre inside of the ring (basically melee) or far enough back, so for me its literally Stampede in, stun, hammer of the gods, dead mob
As I've played predominantly maces for my first 130 hours, I love how it feels when hits connect, but it's far from effective when compared to playing Quarterstaves with a Monk. My friends all refer to them as basically Jedi with dual blade lightsabers because they do the same amount of damage per hit, at range over 50% of the time, and they do it significantly faster with the same attack speed passives because their skills are simply faster. I died midswing on a T9 map yesterday because the Vaal guard enemy that dual wields was able to run up to me during my huge Sunder wind up, use their one attack that stabs about 6 times, stunlock me out of my attack in the first hit and kill me instantly from 2500 HP with 65% DR with 75% to All Resists and a bunch of Stun Threshold passives. My friend, as a monk, cleared the rest of the map without issue because the enemies literally cannot touch him 90% of the time.
I have been playing Sword and Board tanky type melee toons for a decade or so in various games, and I am liking what i see/expect so far. I have to say, i am not used to the need to be rolly pollie to stay alive in a boss fight, but i do like the fact that i need to think and figure out how to beat the boss. I am actually hoping for a Hard Taunt mechanic, that can be used in group play when we get to that point, and I have to say the lack of a great ranged attack is generally par for the course when you play a tank. I am wondering if you have stand in place set on some of your melee attacks on your tank, as I do move when i attack. I also favor a leap attack into a group of mobs, then explode all the stunned folks, so maybe I am not noticing the 'standing in place' as much due to play style choices. Great vid as always and look forward to more!
Hard taunt= earth Totem. Maybe throw in a contented effect or widened effect depending on on boss or horde situations, paired with bonus stun, pin, or attack speed to act as further CC so you can get some wind up time to build up combo counters by playing their skill like a drum.
I am down with slow/low movement as a characteristic of the mace. I think it would be cool to balance it out with more resiliency. Maybe give maces armor and resistances or something, or a passive that increases defense is a mace is being held. If I am gonna be stationary, help me survive the long wind ups.
This is why I love the Monster Hunter series. The monsters scale with your gear as you progress, so every monster you fight feels like a serious challenge, unless you go back and fight earlier monsters. GGG really needs to either scale the monster health up, or allow us to powerup the monsters ourselves (base power, not more unpredictable mods). Some of the most fun fights for me are simpler attack and dodge fights like the Miller, or the fat dude before the water goddess. Oh, and remove magic find.
About movement on melee: GGG could take a page out of Wolcen (of all places!) and have a short cooldown dash/charge in baked into melee attacks along with baked in 'hit everything you swing through' AoE (at full damage for each target hit.) which would help a lot with gap closing and melee mobility. Said dash had baked in stagger/ministun which was a big part of why it had a cooldown. Making a signature part of Mace playstyle being 'I barge enemies out of the way to maintain mobility even when surrounded.' like Sauron in the opening of The Fellowship of the Ring would give Maces a neat mobility option unique (mostly) to it. Also, yeah changes to the sheer amount of area filling and on death effects would help. Watching someone be zoned out for huge chunks of time absolutely puts me off of trying anything melee.
My experience so far (I ONLY played melee): Monk was the best feeling class that I ever played in an arpg, I had fun from act 1 to t15 maps (played ice strike). They totally nailed fast paced melee combat. This week I just started trying a Warrior and it's a totally different melee experience, slower and based on stun combos, definitely a more situational type of combat, which I didn't expect to enjoy that much, but after just finishing act 3 I can say I had a blast so far. I can totally see how it can fall off in the endgame when there are lots of fast mobs, but so far bosses are a joke and map clear feels great with rolling slam using attack speed support and stun resistance. Overall, it just FEELS good to play, they can definitely work on balance tho.
Warrior feels better to me also in the endgame. Main issue is that survivability is getting much worse because armor is quite bad. You need to stack strength and get 2h+shield to survive if you want to do maps t10+. Warrior is a lot of fun actually, despite his flaws
agree on most points. melee just feels clunky, but im almost sure, that we are still missing at least half of the spells/gems that are especially designed for physical damage type note that there is no ranged classes left to be released. so most of the melee is just hidden from us im just hyped for sword & bleeds build gameplay with duelist, seems like it is my exact vibe
Thanks Tri for bringing attention to this issue. I want to enjoy playing melee, and honestly I had a blast through campaign as a warrior. But the big issue is when you started hitting maps doing end game content. Kripp covered a glaring issue with the armor stat. I’ll link it for anyone interested. It may not solve the melee issue entirely if they fix it, but it would be a good start. Especially before they release the Templar. Kripps Vid: th-cam.com/video/henLgTe4Ztk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=X88ulreYEaJOSXXg
Attack speed does help with your cast time. You can check this by slotting in a martial tempo support gem into sunder. It says 25% increased attack speed increase. However, sunder has like a 2.6 second wind up. 25% should reduce it by .65 seconds. Not, .2-.3 seconds.
there are problems with monk too, all the fist/palm attacks have a chance to be blocked mid dash against mobs with large hit boxes, so even when they are the target you get denied the actual hit. Pathing in general on the monk can be super punishing. The melee gap close dash, can trigger twice, even three times on the same mob occasionally and put you inside an entire pack because it moves you behind them
Ivwas having some trouble in act 2 till I started switching between herald of ash and the armor fragment one. Usually if I'm having trouble with a certain mob type or boss a quick portal to town to change my restist on rings or charms and switching from herald of ash to more armor for a boss makes the fight easy. The thing ive noticed is I never have to do that on my witch or merc I just get good and push through. But warrior is more gear driven imo. As an example the boss shown 7 minutes in was a cake walk on warrior. I essentially just face tanked his hand spamming armor break, then when it broke perfect strike. But that same zone any hits from the little freeze drone mobs would nearly insta kill me. I probably died 10 times to them getting to the boss just to stand in place not worried and destroying him. The only thing that got me through the level was just straight leaping slaming straight to the little ice drones the instant I seen them.
If they increase the monster durability, they need to lower the mob density. There are hundreds of monsters every 100 feet in maps. It would be an absolute slog to get through one single map.
The MOST frustrating thing in this game that I deal with as melee or ranged is how the enemies can shove us, but dodge roll does nothing to avoid this. I am doing great against several packs, then some random fucker runs at my character like a defensive lineman in the NFL and yeets me 40 fucking feet. I get being pushed, but I am getting shoved SCREEN LENGHTS backwards and into additional packs. These pushes need to be tuned, and even when I dodge roll PERPENDICULAR to their charge, I get magnetized like a fucking sticky grenade from halo to the charger and pulled along.
I made 2 warriors so far and i like it when attack speed doesn't affect a skill because then I can spec into nodes that give big damage for less speed. Also, I like to get some points into int so I can use blasphemy to curse my enemies to slow them down to my speed.
I don’t think they will revamp warrior skills. It’s their vision to have the heavy hitter, hard crit tank with slow movement. We will have to wait for full release to play the more balanced marauder (the berserker version of the warrior and the spin to win class).
Different monster types should only have access to a certain pool of modifiers, not all of them. For example, monster types that already have a death effect should be able to get all the rare monster death effect mods, but a random rare spider shouldn’t be able to roll it. Same for a lot of other monster types - slow hulks shouldn’t be getting combinations of mods that make them faster than the player, but it makes sense for a wolf to be hasted
Given that it's EA, I don't know that GGG understood (prior to public testing) just how much players would scale relative to the environment. For now, I'd like to think that on-death effects are probably a placeholder (on "difficulty") until the balance between the player and the environment gets brought into line. To clear this up, I think GGG needs to consider the following: - Rare mobs must be made more visually distinct (yellow glow?) - Only blue mobs and up have a chance for on-death effects (I would say rare, but this incentivizes most, if not all, rares to have these effects since there are fewer of these mobs around) - On-death effects need substantially better telegraphing and the particle pollution from a gazillion graphical elements from skills, monsters, etc. needs to get dialed back just a bit to maintain (visual) clarity on the telegraphing. - Perhaps a one-use charm that can entirely absorb an on-death effect (if it would effectively kill you in that moment) then it fizzles out for good wouldn't be the worst idea. You'd have to farm these since they'd be single-use.
Tbh I feel like there is a problem with the design of bosses vs non-bossing content. Where your primary defense against boss abilities is well timed dodges, as opposed to having to tank mob damage. Mob density is really high in some places and it doesn’t feel as methodical as the game seems to want to be. A lot of people compare the combat to Elden Ring, but Elden Ring doesn’t have the same mob density. This makes 1 button builds feel significantly better because you don’t have time to press 3 different buttons when 20+ mobs are using you as a raid dummy. I think perhaps regular mobs deal too much damage relative to bosses? I believe GGG will find a way to make this all feel a lot better, and it’s just a matter of waiting. That being said, I’m still enjoying the game immensely and haven’t played anything but PoE 2 ever since EA launched.
I'm really excited for the other melee weapons to get added to the game as, on a fundamental level, I really enjoy the combat design in PoE2. Quarterstaves did feel great, and I've started going through a playthrough with a Mace, though I'm leaning really heavily now into the shield skills, which I also find feel really interesting. The animation cancelling you can do with active block makes me way too happy, and I hope they never try to mess with the ability to do weird micro tricks with it because that's some of my favorite stuff in videogames (PoE: The Duel here we come). On the monster stuff, I think that many of the rare monster mods should honestly be either reworked heavily or removed entirely as they just feel needlessly obnoxious for melee while also almost irrelevant for ranged play. Like, all the mods that spawn damage areas around the rare do nothing when fighting at range, are awful to deal with at actual melee ranges, and subtract from the actually really good melee mechanics of avoiding or dodging the actual attacks of the very well-designed monsters themselves. I'm not sure what GGG's thinking is with a lot of that stuff, but the actual combat design is really so good, melee or ranged, but for some reason there are these other mechanics that just make it unnecessarily frustrating.
Mist melee skills do have movement baked in. The bigger problem for me is that the movement is always toward the target. If I could backpeddal while swinging, or circle strafe, it'd fix a lot of problems. Right now, I need to move towards the target or stand still for the whole attack, and that's never going to work if all your weapons attacks are slow. Maybe it'll fix itself when they come out with other weapon options, and I can switch to mace when I have a big opening?
another thing with POE2 is that while the game seems to be more slow and methodical compared to other ARPGS, those changes didn't apply to monsters. You still get quickly swarmed by a bunch of monsters and your screen is filled with mobs within seconds when you open things such as breaches. They need to make monsters more meaningful by reducing their numbers, making them slower, more powerful and more rewarding.
I think the biggest thing for melee is that it's missing all of the other associated weapons and skills. Unlike Magic missing 1 Class and Ranged missing nothing
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@@AthenianzWhy they don't make all the movement like bone shatter skill if you watch bone shatter it's fast went he wanna attack the enemy..
No.
*Quarterstaff* are hybrid forms of *ranged* + *melee* ranged weapons, while MACE is PURE MELEE no magical increased ranges etc.
> *STAFF* is within the _"Quarterstaff"_ dun forget it!
> Melee sucks.
> A Tank can NOT a be a TANK even if you want to build so,..it is NOT possible all is the same limiting gameplay.
ALL classes have the same problem later on. No light, medium or hard dealing wwith dmg,..all deal hard and nothing between to build for.
Worriers can NOT play their class typical gameplay.
And it sucks that SKILLS are bound to weapons,...
If smo wants as a worrier, to use a Staff but HIS skills are now locked... even if he draws down his str/damage doing so,... EXTRA limiting free building like this.
Devs: "we want melee to be new and fun and just as viable as Ranged and magic!"
Also Devs: Makes endless amounts of on death mechanics that spawn pools of death around every single enemy in every act
if you die to on death effects that linger, skill issue
if you die to explosions on death effects that arent well telegraphed... yeah that sucks
@@felixmustermann790 You get it. Dying to the big frost or fire explosions that quite literally tell you when they explode? Your fault.
But man I've been off screen DD'd a bunch of times now without even seeing the enemy that did it
yea, this is exactly why we have so many cowards playing deadeye every league.
@@felixmustermann790I feel the in general tax nature of on death effects just sledgehammers why melee is trash
@@georgeallison6528 'using Deadeye until assasin/daggers releases' :(
Providing some mitigation during the animation of these slam skills could provide some more security for it not being an automatic suicide.
They should just make the skills feel more similar to range characters who can cast and move much more fluidly. Im playing sorc and play very close range, in fact i feel like the more i try to get away from bosses the worse things are in general. So the fact is not that melee is “bad” its more so that the way warrior is designed is bad, if they make the animations and skills more flexible like casters can cast and move the class like monk should be in a better place to start.
There… there are support gems that say they provide mitigation while using the skill. Stun reduction being one I currently use on Earth Spike.
I’m rolling, leaping, and vaulting all over the place on my warrior, even without my 1/4 staff and it’s evasion mines.
SUPERARMOR DURING ROLLING SLAM!
Problem is interruption, which means you can't finish the skill..
"I want to be afraid of monsters when they're alive" perfectly states it. Practically every time II die in map as a lvl 77 monk is from death effects.
I don't think I've heard a better persuasive argument against on death effects than this one. I think whoever at GGG is in love with these modifiers would wake up a bit.
i finally said something smart
this is the voice of us all speaking lol
ive been compiling a bunch clips of me dying to poorly indicated death bombs. Its actually insane how bad they are sometimes, some are literally hidden under foliage on the map, and the ONLY way I would have found out is because I can watch it back in slowmo, which BLEW MY MINND. Its the only thing i die to as lvl79 merc, like why have these annoyaing bombs at all.
sounds like juicing solves that challenge issue... i run content as melee, if i dont kill it fast enough, i might actually die... and i have invested into defenses.
Playing a Titan in SSF, currently level 86 and really starting to get demoralised and burnt out with it. A major part of that might be trying to get the fourth ascendancy because that last floor in Sekhema is so horrendously melee unfriendly with the terrain layout and the heavy focus on ranged mobs that you have to approach over narrow bridges. I can reliably get to floor 4 in a good state, then I repeatedly get my head kicked in before I even reach the boss. I'd try ascending via Ultimatum, but every 10 round key I've put in has ended prematurely due to the game crashing.
I can't help but feel the game is stuck in a weird place between the slower, more deliberate combat that the developers repeatedly spoke of, and the rapid pace that PoE1 has embraced. Mapping doesn't feel too bad on its own, but mechanics like Breach and Delirium suddenly turn it into requiring you to blow up screens or die. It feels awkward.
Seeing videos/screenshots of casters with absurd amounts of ES blasting things from range also feels bad when you're running around with 2.5k HP and need to go toe-to-toe with everything.
so fkin true
The problem is maps, endgame of poe2 should move away from maps and random modifiers.
I'm in the same boat, I think we rolled the wrong class.. Warrior is probably the least tanky class, the slowest, hardest to ascend.. boss damage is decent but not even as good as a lot of other builds. Armor is worse than ES or evasion too
I dropped my warbringer when I got to maps. My friends seemed to be playing a different game entirely, I still largely seemed to be stuck in act 1 with how the game treated me. Got tired of dying and rolled a ranger.
Armor formula is just wrong. Watch Kripparrian about this issue.
Personally, River Hags were the worst feeling enemy in the game as a monk. They're incredibly tanky for a mage-type enemy, and their bubble slow is incredibly difficult to get away from. If that thing even clips you, you immediately have to roll out of the way and run as far as possible or you end up getting insta-killed. Fighting one of them sucked, but if multiple River Hags were on the screen at once, I would straight up disengage and get as far away from them as possible because even if I managed to prevail, it would be a slog of a fight.
I agree the drowning orbs are absolutely ridiculous. Way overtuned and good luck when the get a temporal bubble as a rare and twinned on maps. Insane lol
These hags are pure evil!
For me it was the 🌪️ mages they move to fast and the damage they do is crazy. I died a lot in that zone
My monk when I see river hags storm wave makes mince meat
Just found out the hard way today what that orb finally does. Safe to assume I tweaked out
I'm waiting for duelist to come out. Would be nice for armor to get a buff just to make melee better. Armor should get resistance to slams and aoe ground effects because it sucks to be melee when all the enemies you fight at face to face range immediately explode or drop ground effects and kill you.
I really think when axes, swords, spears and maybe even daggers or flails come out, it'll be fine. We'll get a pretty large group of skills there that aren't slam builds. Invoker is incredibly fun to play, so when dedicated bleed skills and whatever they're doing with the others should be fine.
@@bertjohnson401 I play cold invoker with multibell shenanigans and it's feeling strong. Guess the character is going to buying loot that goes rarity and CI because that's OP right now. All the permutations of warrior don't look fun to me at all. Warriors should be able to trade big hits and have hyper armor. just slamming the whole screen so you don't have to interact with the short comings of having to deal with the mobs feels lame. Monk feels like much better melee rn because you fight the mobs while navigating the enemies' abilities.
Kripparian pretty much just said armor is even more useless than in PoE1.
They need to fix it. We can't have years of armor not doing what it says on the character sheet and melee being shit again.
This is as high priority as the rarity issue.
Years of armor 🤡😂
@@UltramarineDadbro did not get past 2nd grade 💀
#TalkativeTri -- It's... playable. But compared to casters? It's a far far cry...
100% it's the comparison, Armor is trash, so Warrior doesn't feel that tanky. So I'm not as tanky as a Mage.... on a slow tanky looking character with 11k armor and 4k health.....
So we have way worse clear, way less movement, die more to on-death effects. are way less tanky than a class that should be squishy. So what are we doing here?
The class fantasy can't carry you for too long until you realise that your way far behind others people in the league and gear just gets more and more expensive.
This needs to be addressed. armour needs changing, on-death effects need to be removed or toned down by at least 70% and liek Tri says in the video, movement needs to be added, Maces feel too slow when you're been rushed by 10 enemies moving 4x faster than the player.
I can accept having worse clear speed, at the cost of been way more tanky and slow. what i can't accept is been bottom of the barrel at literally everything.
@@RelentlessZen This is 100% it. Warrior feels so slow and clumsy. Act 1, he feels great. Act 2 you really start to struggle, Act 3 I quit as my warrior. Went with monk, while that is better, both are very hard to level and build. The game is 100% easier as ranged and that is not okay. Warrior is far behind so many of the classes already. PoE 1 Warrior is so much better.
Has nobody noticed that the mouse targeting is wrong, and the impact this has on some melee abilities? Targeted attacks make your character face the direction of the highlighted enemy, but for targetless skills (AOEs and abilities like Rolling Slam) your character faces the ground-based location of the cursor. Which is to say, if you're mouse-hovering over an enemy, you're not targeting them at all - you're targeting the ground behind them relative to the camera.
In the case of Rolling Slam, this means that unless you ALWAYS target the ground at your enemy's feet with all your attacks, you will absolutely roll in the wrong direction - you'll be happily clicking directly on an enemy with LMB, then you'll pop rolling slam and veer off at a weird angle. In the case of general AOE effects, it means you might actually miss an enemy outright if the AOE range is small, because you're not actually aiming where you think you're aiming.
The same applies for blocking - though I don't know if any block abilities actually factor in character direction; when you start blocking, you block in the direction of your cursor... not the direction of the highlighted enemy.
I posted a thread about this, but nobody even registered it, like nobody noticed why some of their melee movement is misaligned at times.
Not nobody as i registered similar thread.
The auto aim is weird with point and click melee.
@@aspikbardamu6040 Control scheme doesn't matter, aim helper still can direct your skill 90/180 degrees from the target because there's a little corner of "wall" near cursor.
@@aspikbardamu6040 Glad I'm not just going insane then. Hopefully more people might actually notice this...
@@NicholasBrakespear i have noticed it a lot with the bell for monk - what helps a bit for melee is to remove the "move to attack" but still it is clunky
same goes for targetting ball lightning with lightning warp. died and consequently failed like 50% of my waystones due to randomly not targetting BL (usually, it locks on non-cullable enemy, does nothing and the character just stands there, handwaving menacingly).
My main concern as melee is the excessive amount of zoning abilities bosses use on screen. They sit on AoE while three other whirlwinds are dancing around and stuff falling off the sky.
Special mention to Xyclucian flying away to other locations while leaving the ground frozen or electrified, resetting your stun meter...
Currently playing my Titan feels a bit like opening a combination lock while fighting in order to maybe do decent damage. If you hit the right combination of buttons in the right order and land your hit after 2 seconds, then congrats, you win. If you miss because the boss moved out of the way during your decade long backswing, too bad.
On my crossbow Dead Eye, I do many times as much damage pushing a single button repeatedly in the same amount of time. It's no contest, the Dead Eye clears and boss kills at a speed that leaves the Titan in the dust, and always did from lvl 1 onward.
I do think there is more of a Mace skill problem than a Warrior problem (and maybe just a general lack of melee skills right now), but the Mace is supposed to be the Warrior's signature weapon. This is how they intended a Warrior to play, and I can't help but feel like they designed the concept of this class without asking whether or not it would work against the creatures of PoE2.
I think its not that melee in general sucks. For example, monk feels great. While a lot of its skills are mid range, being up close and personal does feel good on a monk. Problem is mace skills. A lot of them feels clunky to use. Rolling slam doesnt feel good. Giving it a bit more AOE and responsiveness would've been great. Giving earthquake more base damage, a bit more AOE and 3 sec delay instead of 4 would've been great buff. Adding "sticking" to some of the single target skills, so that smallest movements from elite mobs and bosses did not counted as a miss.
One of my many problems with Warrior is Boneshatter. It's a fantastic clearing ability but you have to actively gimp yourself to be able to use it. If you spec into stun buildup and have a mace with increased stun buildup, the enemies just don't get Primed for Stun, they are stunned outright. I'm not even talking about Titan's Crushing Blows here.
Yes, in theory it's pretty nice to have situational skills that are very impactful when you have an opportunity to use them, but in practice I found that annoying af.
There're other clearing abilities on Warrior like Stampede + armor explosions, but Boneshatter is by far the best... when it works.
Games needs a timed NPC escort mission through Chaos flowers ..with 100% more on-death effects.
Hahaha, this is spot on the best way to troll gamers.
Another thing, that I think is holding the Warrior back right now, it that he is alone in his corner of the skill tree. What this means is that in practical terms he is limited to only his own classes skills. A witch or sorceress can cherry pick from both lists. A monk can easily pick up a spell if they want. Rangers and Mercs aren't perfectly compatible but close enough that's I've seen a streamer swap a ranger to a crossbow without even realizing they were going off class. So one the adjacent classes are filled in the Warrior will have some more flexibility in their choices, but right now they are by far the most option limited class in the game. Once Marauder is in the game, you might have the option to put an axe in weapon slot two and grab a skill that fills a missing niche, or even build an off stat and grab a sword or flail.
As for on death effects... That is kind of weird. I recall an interview where they said that the only reason on death effects existed at all, is that players in PoE1 were so zoomy, that they needed then as the only way for a mob to present a threat. So for them to have so many of them i PoE2 seems like it must mean that they themselves think they missed the mark in limiting zoom. Maybe something to ask about in your next interview after their (well deserved) vacation?
TLDR, half the warriors skills (axes, flails, ffs there might even be some druid skills that would go hard on warrior xD) arent in the game yet which greatly hinders how it feels to play a warrior because of lacking mobility in current skills or variety (thats why monk is fine)
@@felixmustermann790 Basically. We have seen successful mace melee builds, but it's usually a high tier player who is known to grind hard in PoE1 already, far past what regular players can hope to achieve. Axes will be an insanely massive patch. Adding melee staff skills that complement warrior, also a good place to look. Maces have never been popular even in PoE1, not compared to swords or axes.
@@LV9_x The trouble with looking to staff skills as a Warrior is that they are Int/Dex based, while the Warrior is a pure Str class, (or more accurately, the Mace is a pure Str weapon), which is why adding the classes closer on the stat tree will be a potential boost.
Great point
Attack speed works with maces, but several warrior abilities have a modifier to Total Attack Time, which happens after attack speed modifiers have been calculated. Even with 10000% increased attack speed, Sunder will still have 1.4 second attack time. Rolling Slam will have 1.5 seconds added.
Yes that’s what I thought. That also means that reduced attack speed also has less impact I guess. But that is not very intuitive, it was completely different in poe1
ohh so that is why?
Thank you
But I found out in practice that a 1.05 ApS and 1.27 ApS maces feel very different in mapping. The flat added time sucks but a good bonus to attack speed is still noticeable.
As a level 80 Titan. I can say this.. a lot of the skills have a way too slow cast time. Some feel horrible to use.. Some don't and feel really decent. Yet I wish Earthquake was just a normal Ground Stomp.. and the hold charge moves just feel off.
Ye and I, as a level 84, think you are a scrub.
@@iluvatarchemhow could you possibly think that was necessary?
@@iluvatarchem You are right. I need to git gud.
82 titan my best skill is my basic strike with all the AoE😢
The charge skills feel really good on controller. Problem is you then can’t reliably leap far without it aiming at an enemy far away, otherwise it leaps a foot forward. Not sure if other skills be questionable on controller, warrior and otherwise.
I think part of the problem is the dominance of ES over armor and evasion at the moment. Caster classes that don't even need to be in melee are at the same time tankier than melee, which does.
Plus ES and evasion have multiple nodes that work together and virtually multiply one another.
@@rb98769 Plus Blind is still a thing.
Warrior is also being plagued by massive bugs that are affecting its qol. Aftershocks dont damage enemies if they are from rolling slam, EDIT: it looks like the herald of ash explosions do work its just a super tiny aoe, for combust on infernal cry its either bugged or the dmg is just so low that its impossible to notice. Tons of times monsters are left with a tiny sliver of hp and the explosions of mobs near them would have made the difference. Also, heavy stun shouldn't knock back enemies. It pushes them insanely far away from you, and its extremely clunky to follow up on with damage. Sometimes the stuns also just push them out of the aoe of your abilities
My herald of ash definitely deleting mobs
I’m having a hard time telling when my attack misses because of accuracy or when it misses because of a bug
So true about the heavy stun knockback, it's awful most of the times. The Herald bit is just not true, it is working.
Those explosions scale differently. With Herald of Ash, if your not doing a gigaton of damage to overkill white mobs, the ignite from herald won't do much damage. The Infernal Cry explosion does not scale from weapon damage, it does flat fire +10% more per monster power, so explosions from white mobs will not do that much damage but I would imagine generic fire damage increases or "damage with Warcries" scales it.
From what i understand Armor Explosions deals the physical damage from the hit that triggers it converted to fire while Fiery Death does 10% of the maximum life of the target as fire damage.
@@sheabishop6200same I switch to resolute technique because it felt like my attacks were missing a lot more than it should. Now it really never misses so that feels better.
I-frames during leaps would also help. i shouldnt be chilled by ice on the ground when i'm 10ft in the air above it.
Nah man, you don't need to build movement into every melee skill, you just need to give Warrior enough defenses so they survive. Enemy damage overall is too spiky, enemies need to hit for less, while living longer, that's what makes the combat interactions in the game shine, this is why campaign feels better. You are correct, monsters should be dangerous when they are alive, they should not die in a faction of a second and then one-shot you with death effects.
Basically give the warrior more defenses, make monsters hit for less while living for longer, and you have already fixed melee, and most of the endgame with it.
If I invest in attack speed, my abilities should feel noticably faster, idk why the flat added attack time to skills is not reducible.
The warrior section of the passive tree needs more defensive options to mitigate physical damage. Armor should not be this bad at mitigating something that people would intuitively think would mitigate effectively.
If you can armour break and heavy stun a boss, seismic cry, and then sunder them, they will die as long as your weapon has good damage. That is how PoE2 was described pre EA launch. You use a variety of skills to do large amounts of damage. It just feels bad that other weapon bases devolve into press one button.
You should be able to one button or multi button, there's no reason that passes the "seems arbitrary" sniff test for why you shouldn't be able to viably do both in the name of versatility.
People loved flicker strike in PoE 1, it had god knows how many build variations and was a one button build aside from particularly tough enemies where you'd pop a vaal aura or berserk etc. Alternatively you had manabond hierophant which was a 3 or 4 button build for deep delving and puzzle boxes... There's nothing wrong with either avenue, but trying to force players into either avenue always just feels terrible when you have as many weapon limits as the skills currently have e.g. flicker being staves only and unable to generate it's own charges has basically killed that skill's diversity for no good reason.
The problem with that is the other classes can do the same thing at endgame without setting up a multi ability combo and have way better clear
@@turbot4rd404 there is a reason. it's the type of game they want to make. poe 1 is the one button kill all zoom across the entire map kind of game
and poe 2 is the more grounded, combo oriented game
does that mean they fully achieved what they wanted already? no, of course not, it's an early access of a direction nobody has ever really gone in with ARPGs
For sure. I'd absolutely hate playing like that. Just one skill, for hours and hours... 😂
Pressing 3-4 buttons over and over isn't much different than pushing one button over and over
The trial of Sekhemas honour system is my BIGGEST frustration with the game right now. I play as a monk that's VERY similar to your monk build and I just can't avoid all the hits I need to avoid to get through 3 bosses with afflictions on my character. If it wasn't required for the ascendancy points, I wouldn't engage with it at all.
You need to buy or roll a relic with honour resistance. You can get a tapestry relic which has 40% res. It caps at 75%. When you're capped your character will die before your honour disappears, it's such a huge buff. You can literally stand still being hit by 10 enemies and your honour will be ticking down 1 point at a time. You can even tank trap damage and boss hits. The other modifier you can get is maximum honour. I start the trials with 7k+ honour.
It’s easier to do trial of sekhemas than random aoe boons on trial of chaos, especially when you have resistance relics, shrines than can restore honor etc. I did 3 floor with max honor at the end on my monk.
@@anotherenglishtutorI feel like honor should just be reworked into an extra lives system
Because currently the amount of relics you need to make the content not insufferable requires such significant investment for what effectively is required ascendancy system
Makes me just leave to play path of exile 1 since it’s substantially less CBT to get going and make a viable build
@@tylerulfmann4586 ?? When you did your 1st/2nd ascendancy, you didn't get any relics? I used them for my 3rd and 4th ascendancies. I never bought any relics. They were easily acquirable in the trial from mobs/chest.
I am really bummed out that there are only 2 melee classes in the game right now, I am more of a melee kind of guy and have been having a blast with monk, but warrior is so slow compared to the high octane movement of the monk (ik warrior got leap slam, but that skill feels like shit, why can enemies hit me while I am on the air?) I cant wait for the spear and axes and the sword to come out, literally the top classes I want to try out at least
It's gonna be a blast when those weapons come out.
I feel this. I think out of the rest of the characters to come, most will be melee. The probably did that on purpose to try and fix as much as they can before they add more
I want my swords. Can't wait for them to come out and see how they plan to make them distinct.
Hopefully they fix the issue with armor before that happens. But I am really looking forward to Rogue and Huntress.
I started as warrior and wanted to be mace and shield. I figured I'd be max defensive and just be slow but tanky. Got through all of Act I except final zone without a single problem. Was having a blast, but then the on death puddles and density in tight quarters of that zone kept wrecking me. Finally could get to the boss, died 50+ times kept running out of heals or would get stunlocked when surrounded during the fog part. Respec'd completely mutiple times and grinded over and over for better gear, but still could not get passed that boss. I decided to try monk with quarterstaff and I breezed through act 1 with worse gear and way lower level. About to finish Act 3 on monk and it's been a blast. For both being melee it is cool that they are different, but they also feel like I am playing a 100% different game one crazy hard and one fun.
Melee needs ALOT of touch ups and work before it feels even close to like ranger or witch
My personal problem, is that we were giver, hammer, bigger hammer, and staff. as an introduction to melee in poe 2, most of which, are slow to start, the related skills are even slower than that. So when you start the game, you fly through the air, get smacked 20 times and die before your attack actually happens. It's bad, it feels bad. And the skill gems at the levels you get them feel like they didnt even try to make a smooth progressions. Now don't get me wrong, if you stick with it and keep playing melee feels waaaaaaay better around level 15-20 especially when you have a weapon. But early game is a turbo turnoff in so many ways.
It doesn't help that several of the nearby damage nodes for warrior have reduced attack speed.
Yeah that's my experience, once you hit weapon type breakpoints and start making magic items. Once you find a %physical damage weapon of the next tier you're set.
The one thing in worried about is that once they add in all the weapon types. Finding bases will get many times worse.
Meaning those 15 two handed maces I had to go through to find a damage roll will take waay longer to find.
As a melee doing ritual in a tiny hallway while getting body blocked by mobs, chased by a tornado without any movement skills, feels like you gotta kill them before they kill you. Can't even see what's going on half the time.
Warrior getting basically no "Mace Strike" replacements and Mace Strike being a static pile of crap is a lot of it.
Monk gets to flow towards the enemy attacking the whole time or gets to teleport around like it's Dragon Ball Z hitting things. Elemental effects and awesomeness comes with these attacks the entire time it's happening. You can literally teleport across the screen and blow people up or just to close the distance.
Meanwhile, Warrior gets basically rooted in place to use a basic attack that looks like and feels like the basic attack that it is. Sometimes it stuns guys and lets you use an attack that is slightly more mobile and makes them explode, which is kind of neat, but if you were planning on wading into the enemy like an Escrima Master or slamming people with a building like Reinhardt, we don't do that here. You yell at people or maybe do some slam things which are often more glorified ranged attacks.
Something that I feel is important is the distinction between mindless slaughter of enemies - and constant high concentration focus. Both extremes are too much. I need to be challenged, but I also want to be able to play 8 hours in one go. Taking a break every hour to decramp hands and unwind is not something to aspire to.
The charge abilities need to pass through targets, and targeting mobs with indicators needs to be slightly more easy (wider distance of curser from the target to still register the target).
It feels Like their solution to meele was completly overstat meele weapons and skills. And feels way more rewarding while still risky. The issue is. You can Just use the overstatted meele weapons and meele skills at range. Ignoring the risk and getting the reward. Using heralds and so on.
My biggest problem with melee classes (In any game, but especially in PoE2) is that unlike with ranged classes, you have to worry about even more problems: I'm stuck inside the minions how do i get out?!
When i play my sorceress or ranger, they fire projectiles at the enemy faster than they reach me and i'm always one step ahead of them. Or away from them.
But with melee classes i suddenly have to worry about armor (Who uses armor lol) and evasion. I can't move around like i want to. I expected monk to be like a shaolin, with crazy 360 no scope melee kills [That's not how a quarterstaff works] and somersaults and flips and zoomin around groups of enemies faster than the human eye can follow, while dodging every single attack and taking 99.99% reduced damage what with all the armor the man's wearing. Same for warrior. I wanted a mountain. A literal mountain, where trees grow on and goats live on and which cannot be penetrated by your average weapon of choice. It's a fucking mountain.
Question is, why do melee classes feel NOTHING like what i just said? Instead, they only last 3 seconds in the action, which is around how long i last with ladies. Why?
If they could actually survive like i was told they could, they'd feel much better. Right now they're slow (WHY IS MONK SO SLOW) and yes they deal trillions of damage if played right but big deal, so does deadeye ranger. But she doesn't die cause she's a kilometer away.
dude, wait until you get the last two abilities in the monk gem skill tree. I been using gathering the storm and the other one to the left of that in combo, (even though it's technically not part of the buidl and I do horrible damage with that skill) enemies cannot even touch me. Plus, after leaving a shocked ground I can use syphoning strike to get some juicy damage and shock explosion and keep moving. have been trying to get better dmg though
I've been testing different melee options and so far... the best Warrior build I've found is actually an infernalist witch... using templar gear... God i love this game
Explain how do you melee with her
@TiGiPiT i equipped a Mace and a shield and started taking mace/shield skills
I've been playing Warrior and boy oh boy the adrenaline rush I felt on the Act 1 boss was one of the best gaming experiences I've ever felt. Ya I died like 20 times, but I never gave up I just kept trying without leveling up more or gearing up more until I just beat him with skill, memorizing his patterns. I really enjoy the extra challenge of playing a Warrior in any ARPG, for example Diablo 4 was challenging during the beta and I loved it.
Warrior is the legit Dark Souls experience on a full STR build.
Thats sick that you enjoyed that lol. But thats sadly the issue. Warrior is by miles more difficult than other classes and people dont like that.
@@ramstabSouls on Strength is the absolute easy mode compared to PoE. You stunlock the entire Souls series with a big sword or hammer
@@TheHollowBlade I 100% agree but this is why I paid the $30 for early access to experience this before it is fixed, lol
True Warrior
Another thing that is a hard hit for warrior is there is no life on the tree...while sorc and monk have a ton of juicy ES nodes to grab. Not sure why GGG removed life but not ES.
After death effects would be cool if they were telegraphed like the red exploding corpse, or if they didn't directly do massive damage.
Also, I find death effects like 500% more common than in poe 1 and we don't have good ways to dodge them because we have no zooming movement like blade dance or flame dash.
For skills with fixed attack times, they should scale in an alternate way withattack speed. More AoE, more damage, more projectiles. Just something.
>Great campaign
>Endgame is kinda boring with just sweeping a generic monster.
Also the ice bubbled monster vs warrior 💀
For some reason they decided that worriors have to be slower than snails for a reason
GGG during POE1: We understand all the issues that melee faces so we're going to make big design changes in POE2 melee to make it more fun.
GGG during POE2: So we repeated all the mistakes of POE1 melee and we also removed some of your defenses. Sorry, not sorry.
Also, I'll add a good old joke from the POE forums, "melee is fine as long as you don't play melee."
My favorite moment so far.....getting shot and stunned from off screen running a T15, then while stunned, getting shot again and the map is over. Never saw what hit me, was off the bottom of my screen.
Attack Speed not working with maces is by design. Slams have a "+ x seconds to total attack time" value on the gems. It's literally shown on every gem. You can't shorten this period with skill/attack speed cause it's a value that's added to the attack time AFTER reductions. You can argue whether it's a good idea or not but it's definitely by design and not a bug.
You're 100% on the money with your first initial point here Tri. The reason warrior feels so terrible to play currently has ALOT to do with the fact you're hard locked into animations where some are completely or almost completely static. I did considerable testing of this, what spells you could animation cancel, combo from, sequences etc.. Currently the recovery portion of the majority of animations is FAR too long and the only way to cancel these is to dodge roll out. Which feels absolutely terrible, as you're essentially replacing the static recovery section of the animation with another animation that you're not able to be aggressive with.
The dynamic movement you said is absolutely what needs to happen, but furthermore abilities need to be able to be combo'd and chained together in these recovery periods to have more fluidity. Don't get me wrong though, Mace needs to be slow, but having some room to combo another ability or two to make interesting sequences is what mace desperately needs, alongside the dynamic movement that other classes have, this will massively address the feel of the class and really make melee feel powerful, fluid and engaging.
There are obviously other aspects of the game that are incredibly melee unfriendly as well that need to be looked at, but the movement is 100% top priority i believe.
Melee is good, but being sluggish slammer and charging in place for 3 seconds is awful when mobs gang on you as fast as possible.
I hope when swords come in, we gat much snappier and fluid melee on warriors like monks are.
PS: congrats on the sponsor
dont forget flails, axes, and all the skills with Druid and Templar, shit might totally change how you are able to play warrior
They should do something to prevent being interrupted so you can actually complete the skill even when mobs are hitting you.
@@elderwiz3165 Unbreakable support gem or stun threshhold
@@felixmustermann790 Absolutely. But even so I think mace needs to be reworked. It's just not good right now.
@@elderwiz3165 stun threshhold or unbreakable supprort gem
Without movement skills like in PoE1 not only does it feel slow but it makes melee worse. It also doesn't help that monsters swarm and hit fast. Without closing the gap fast melee will always be the worst choice. Even as a monk with movement attacks I ended up using mostly storm wave
There’s leaping smash and the quarter staff ice evade that warriors can very easily start with. I main maces, but my dodge button is the Str /dex/int unique 1/4staff on my back with the ice evasion.
Coincidentally, the 1/4 use spike attack tends to travel the same distance as a dodge or ice evade. Meaning if you can freeze a fool in melee range you can dodge back and the Ice Spike’s sweet spot should be right on who you froze.
WASD
I want a "mace throw", it hits an enemy flies in the air you catch it and slam the ground, all in one "quick" smooth animation. That would be so cool
There is another problem to melee: the fact that the more dangerous mobs are long ranged or mid ranged mobs.
I mean, I play sorceress and it is not the melee mobs I fear, it is those who can wreck me from a distance. And I do not have to get in close range to deal damage (except for the fuckers with Proximal Tangibility). If I had to then it would be even more deadly.
I feel that armour is undertuned vs evasion and energy shield. If you play a tank, you should be immune to a lot of things, except if you get stunned or another ailment.
I honestly think they need to start copying Warframe's melee system, particularly the mobility allowed by it, and the range. If they, for example, allowed melee skills to be used without a movement penalty, and allowed us to build into upwards of 1-2 extra meters of default range, it would really make the system feel amazing. Freedom of movement and more forgiving ranges would really improve the feel and safety of melee.
Melee needs to fulfill certain fantasies, either a disruptor massive strength guy, who stuns and slaps away enemy attacks, and throws them around, knocks them back with a splash, ragdolling the enemy.
Then there's the mosquito melee, where you jump around and are basically ranged but you jump in and out of the enemy range to slice and dice.
The Duelist will definitely be the mosquito melee. Hope it lives up to its expectations
It's actually funny that as someone who has played a sorceress and now witch, I find that the best way to do 95% of the bosses is to make sure you stay in melee range because if they're using the melee attacks you can either dodge or eat a half dozen of them before you die as compared to if you stand at range where you will cop all the insta-death range skills.
It's such a weird dynamic because in the rest of the game you want to keep some space and kite but come the boss fights it's just rambo charge. Luckily most of the bosses don't have a DoD impact.
For some reason I only just now remembered in TERA the axe wielding character that had a ton of charge attacks could move while charging. Then you could spend some of your points on getting an upgrade to allow you to reduce the movement penalty. I don't see why they couldn't add this in as well.
That being said... Shield is strong. But then everything you can do with a shield apart from shield charge is weak af.
I just can't believe they thought the obviously anti-melee mechanic that is Sanctum would be a good way to get your first ascendancy points. Ranged characters can just do it right away, melee ones need to be 5-10 levels above the zone level and get very good gear. Also the 4th floor is almost literally impossible for Titan slammers- a lot of ranged mobs there have faster attack animations than a single slam and they hit like a truck.
If they made armor give a percentage of it towards your resistances and cound for more percentage mitigation. I think itd be better. But that my opinion
My first character was Melee and I made it through Act 1 before changing to Witch because I wasn't ready to move on. Merry Christmas Ti.
The biggest nightmare I've ran into as a Warrior was a map with Crowbell with extra shield and a slow field. Not only it took me a good minute to break his shield, but he ran away twice regenerating it twice. Could use a bit more love on Warriors to deal with such a thing.
I think you're missing something, how armor and evasion work.
The damage on death effect and area effects are so high that, having armor is useless, and evasion as far I understand doesn't block damage in the area.
So you need to have other mitigation systems, like health and energy shield. But warriors don't have a lot of access to ES, and monks don't have access to health, and go increase EN to block this area effect you need to get out of your way to have enough to sustain the end game damage.
I think having more health nods in the skill tree and changing how armor works would be a great advance.
Because the safest way to play monk right now is to kill everything before the area effect hits you.
One saving grace is blocking damage from all hits or acrobatics.
Gotta be careful wishing for more creature tankiness. These maps are HUGE, and any increase in creature tankiness means you'll be stuck in a single map for an even longer time, and remember if you die it's over so long maps+tanky mobs+1 portal is an easy formula for player frustration.
Make close range turret that specializes in stuns and massive singular hits
Immediately nerf the most, if not only, successful build within hours of release. Dont just nerf it, rip it's heart out.
Release a shadow nerf to armor, said class's largest defense mechanic.
Make sure you implement a rampant amount of on-death effects, a mechanic from your previous game that is wildly beloved by everyone
Profit
Don't forget about picking an ascension trial that's engineered to screw over melee.
i believe they are trying to make mace the slow hard hitting class since they have other melee classes coming out for other melee playstyles such as the bear and spears. the mace skills need some tankyness factor built in for the slowness of attacks
Don't worry, after Christmas break you can be sure they will come back with massive changes.
The main issue with melee is the lack of playstyles available to the player. You either play slow big bonk or zippy fast twirly staff. There is no inbetween in terms of playstyle and weapons. So, once GGG introduces the new classes and weapon types. We might see an improvement in melee overall.
My only gripe bout game is they start you in middle of tree but lock you into one side. If they gonna start us there make all starting allocations around him open.
They are open. It's up to you where you want to go. Choosing your class is just a matter of where you want to start in the tree.
@@elderwiz3165 Youre forgetting ascensions. Those are vastly different depending on your class.
What? No.
Pretty much nail on the head, there is a reason spin to win is such a popular archetype for warriors/barbs in ARPGs.
Studying my warrior, the warrior is very polished in terms of combat and skills. Now, the biggest problem the warrior has right now, which i hope they fix as they add more weapons, is his ability to have effect damage other than raw physical/aoe damage. Bleed is a big example as to why his stat tree has to be condensed, maybe do the same they did with poe1 where you get static stats per level (considering, you're locked out of using warrior's blood until end game gear becomes available, since strength is tripled by using 2h weapons with 1h). They can maybe put 1 point to all per level, because it doesn't give you alot of options until end game. Other classes can branch out but if u branch out with the warrior, you cannot make any damage until its too late because u need the damage during the acts as well. A full strength warrior can become monotonous real quick and not able to manifest the different styles he has of combat. Warrior is very tanky with 1h and shield as well as 2h and shield, but 1 handed feels like its only good in dual weild, and even then alot of the skill gems/support hinder the damage done with dual wield. They did a great thing fixing the shield, now they need to augment the damage done with 1 hand a little or make effects on hit available earlier in the passive tree. Shield wall animation feels a little too long plus u gotta slam animation that takes the same time to engage as the shield leaves u with just using a warcry to explode the wall is kind of lame. Same with fissure exploding with warcry, they either need to fix that or make it so slams feel faster, because for fast slam u only got leap slam the other slam animations are slow as hell.
Melee is.... okay... But it leaves a lot to be desired compared to the ranged peers. Armor def needs reworked. Some other small things needs adjusted as well I think. I'm currently a 75 warrior and its weird, 95% of time I'm on autopilot cause its so easy then bam. 1 monster shows up and one shots me out of no where. Maxed resistances(except chaos. but still respectable) and high armor/life. Just feels bad.
Well, the problem is that armor is the worst type of defense. It works well against smaller hits, but get mostly ignored by bigger hits. So you run around feeling invincible, then suddendly you take a crit and die. And on top of that, it needs heavy investment, only works against physical hits, and heavy armor slows you down...
Attack speed works with Maces, just not the way you think it does.
There are two parts to a mace attack: The Wind-up and the Release-state.
The Wind-up is NOT affected by attack speed. It's basically the thing where you lift the hammer, are static and that makes it feel so... SO slow to play.
The release-state is the part that DOES work with attack speed and is basically what happens during the attack itself. This state starts the moment you (can) start doing damage with the skill.
To shorten Wind-up, you would need SKILL speed, not ATTACK Speed. Skill speed, sadly, is very rare and hard to get to as a Warrior. Realistically, the highest you can achieve is 16% skill speed.
What they NEED to do to fix this is let both the Wind-up as well as the Release-state scale with Attack Speed. This would make Warrior feel a LOT better.
Can the community stop saying Melee Problems. It's not Melee issues. It's Warrior issues. I know some might disagree but trust me, Monk is incredible in PoE 2. Many of what people call "Melee Issues" are not a problem on Monk.
Lack of range? Monk has extra mobility and some projectiles
Lack of clear? Shattering Palm and Herald of Ice
Too Slow? Impossible, you get like 5 atk/s on Ice Strike or even more Tempest Flurry
Too squishy? You can go Pure EV, Pure ES or a mix of Both. Invoker even gets PDR for their evasion.
Even for mechanics such as Trial of the Sekhema (Sanctum) Monks don't struggle with damage and can often freeze monsters to help prevent taking damage.
WARRIOR has issues. Why does every passive point that increases damage give you reduced attack speed? Why does dual wielding reduce your attack speed and damage? Why are all the skills inherently super long to cast? Why do some abilities have long periods before they activate such as Hammer of the Gods or Earthquake.
Can we please start recognising and addressing the issues correctly as a community. Warrior needs fixes but right now 50% of Melee (Only Monk and Warrior xD ) feels S Tier incredible.
I mean, I'd make an argument that a big part of it is Maces are just really bad at the game as it exists due to how their skills work. But I can agree that losing attack speed for damage gains when other classes don't need to take a minus to get damage is just bad design.
They need to rework armor and increase the damage mitigation against large hits so it's not worthless against them.
Honestly, i felt mace felt fine... but I am 2 squishy when not able to move. All maces should have hyper armour where they get more dr + stun threshold
Actually Tri - as an ultra greatsword enjoyer in Elden Ring, I don't mind that mace skills have total attack time and ignore attack speed. I think some things being unique like that is fine, as long as it is balanced. The problem with melee atm is same as in poe 1 - extra damage taken by being melee simply is not scaling with our defences. It works fine in Elden Ring because you are almost always 1v1 on an enemy and so you can manage the tempo of the fight. They need to figure out a way to make mapping experience more tactical, just like how it is in campaign, or melee in poe 2 will be exactly like in poe 1 - clearing entire screen with "melee" skills like frost blades before they can touch you.
I think much of the sluggishness with melee could be addressed by allowing attack speed to actually speed up the animations of the attacks as one might intuitively expect them to. That change alone I think would be a huge QoL improvement for mace users. Great video.
it does tho, the animation time goes down the more AS you have, you can see it in the tooltips if you hover over your skills, it is VERY apparent when using 1 handed and 2 handed weapons
As a warrior trying to kill a rare with Temporal bubble or the bubble that sucks mana dry is also a real PITA. Last night in a T15 map I had a mob with the mana drain bubble that also had life regen and lightning storm. It look way too long to kill lol.
the mana ring only siphons in the blue ring segment, not when youre inside of the ring (basically melee) or far enough back, so for me its literally Stampede in, stun, hammer of the gods, dead mob
@ ah good to know 👍🏽👍🏽
As I've played predominantly maces for my first 130 hours, I love how it feels when hits connect, but it's far from effective when compared to playing Quarterstaves with a Monk. My friends all refer to them as basically Jedi with dual blade lightsabers because they do the same amount of damage per hit, at range over 50% of the time, and they do it significantly faster with the same attack speed passives because their skills are simply faster.
I died midswing on a T9 map yesterday because the Vaal guard enemy that dual wields was able to run up to me during my huge Sunder wind up, use their one attack that stabs about 6 times, stunlock me out of my attack in the first hit and kill me instantly from 2500 HP with 65% DR with 75% to All Resists and a bunch of Stun Threshold passives.
My friend, as a monk, cleared the rest of the map without issue because the enemies literally cannot touch him 90% of the time.
I have been playing Sword and Board tanky type melee toons for a decade or so in various games, and I am liking what i see/expect so far. I have to say, i am not used to the need to be rolly pollie to stay alive in a boss fight, but i do like the fact that i need to think and figure out how to beat the boss. I am actually hoping for a Hard Taunt mechanic, that can be used in group play when we get to that point, and I have to say the lack of a great ranged attack is generally par for the course when you play a tank. I am wondering if you have stand in place set on some of your melee attacks on your tank, as I do move when i attack. I also favor a leap attack into a group of mobs, then explode all the stunned folks, so maybe I am not noticing the 'standing in place' as much due to play style choices. Great vid as always and look forward to more!
Hard taunt= earth Totem. Maybe throw in a contented effect or widened effect depending on on boss or horde situations, paired with bonus stun, pin, or attack speed to act as further CC so you can get some wind up time to build up combo counters by playing their skill like a drum.
There is a unique shield that does a perma taunt.
I am down with slow/low movement as a characteristic of the mace. I think it would be cool to balance it out with more resiliency. Maybe give maces armor and resistances or something, or a passive that increases defense is a mace is being held. If I am gonna be stationary, help me survive the long wind ups.
Great suggestion!
Nice to see you getting ads now, it was nice to see the channel grow =D
This is why I love the Monster Hunter series. The monsters scale with your gear as you progress, so every monster you fight feels like a serious challenge, unless you go back and fight earlier monsters. GGG really needs to either scale the monster health up, or allow us to powerup the monsters ourselves (base power, not more unpredictable mods). Some of the most fun fights for me are simpler attack and dodge fights like the Miller, or the fat dude before the water goddess. Oh, and remove magic find.
About movement on melee: GGG could take a page out of Wolcen (of all places!) and have a short cooldown dash/charge in baked into melee attacks along with baked in 'hit everything you swing through' AoE (at full damage for each target hit.) which would help a lot with gap closing and melee mobility. Said dash had baked in stagger/ministun which was a big part of why it had a cooldown.
Making a signature part of Mace playstyle being 'I barge enemies out of the way to maintain mobility even when surrounded.' like Sauron in the opening of The Fellowship of the Ring would give Maces a neat mobility option unique (mostly) to it.
Also, yeah changes to the sheer amount of area filling and on death effects would help. Watching someone be zoned out for huge chunks of time absolutely puts me off of trying anything melee.
I would not be surprised if some cleave like skill will be part of the axe or sword skill list.
My experience so far (I ONLY played melee):
Monk was the best feeling class that I ever played in an arpg, I had fun from act 1 to t15 maps (played ice strike). They totally nailed fast paced melee combat.
This week I just started trying a Warrior and it's a totally different melee experience, slower and based on stun combos, definitely a more situational type of combat, which I didn't expect to enjoy that much, but after just finishing act 3 I can say I had a blast so far. I can totally see how it can fall off in the endgame when there are lots of fast mobs, but so far bosses are a joke and map clear feels great with rolling slam using attack speed support and stun resistance.
Overall, it just FEELS good to play, they can definitely work on balance tho.
Warrior definitely feels better at the end game, at least titan does for me.
Warrior feels better to me also in the endgame. Main issue is that survivability is getting much worse because armor is quite bad. You need to stack strength and get 2h+shield to survive if you want to do maps t10+.
Warrior is a lot of fun actually, despite his flaws
agree on most points. melee just feels clunky, but im almost sure, that we are still missing at least half of the spells/gems that are especially designed for physical damage type
note that there is no ranged classes left to be released. so most of the melee is just hidden from us
im just hyped for sword & bleeds build gameplay with duelist, seems like it is my exact vibe
Thanks Tri for bringing attention to this issue. I want to enjoy playing melee, and honestly I had a blast through campaign as a warrior. But the big issue is when you started hitting maps doing end game content. Kripp covered a glaring issue with the armor stat. I’ll link it for anyone interested. It may not solve the melee issue entirely if they fix it, but it would be a good start. Especially before they release the Templar.
Kripps Vid:
th-cam.com/video/henLgTe4Ztk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=X88ulreYEaJOSXXg
Innate 25% dmg reduction for melee like in the old Diablo.
Attack speed does help with your cast time. You can check this by slotting in a martial tempo support gem into sunder. It says 25% increased attack speed increase. However, sunder has like a 2.6 second wind up. 25% should reduce it by .65 seconds. Not, .2-.3 seconds.
there are problems with monk too, all the fist/palm attacks have a chance to be blocked mid dash against mobs with large hit boxes, so even when they are the target you get denied the actual hit.
Pathing in general on the monk can be super punishing. The melee gap close dash, can trigger twice, even three times on the same mob occasionally and put you inside an entire pack because it moves you behind them
imagine leveling with mace vs the chimera bosses that keeps flying away -_-
Ivwas having some trouble in act 2 till I started switching between herald of ash and the armor fragment one. Usually if I'm having trouble with a certain mob type or boss a quick portal to town to change my restist on rings or charms and switching from herald of ash to more armor for a boss makes the fight easy. The thing ive noticed is I never have to do that on my witch or merc I just get good and push through. But warrior is more gear driven imo. As an example the boss shown 7 minutes in was a cake walk on warrior. I essentially just face tanked his hand spamming armor break, then when it broke perfect strike. But that same zone any hits from the little freeze drone mobs would nearly insta kill me. I probably died 10 times to them getting to the boss just to stand in place not worried and destroying him. The only thing that got me through the level was just straight leaping slaming straight to the little ice drones the instant I seen them.
If they increase the monster durability, they need to lower the mob density. There are hundreds of monsters every 100 feet in maps. It would be an absolute slog to get through one single map.
Yes, that is what we are saying.
The MOST frustrating thing in this game that I deal with as melee or ranged is how the enemies can shove us, but dodge roll does nothing to avoid this. I am doing great against several packs, then some random fucker runs at my character like a defensive lineman in the NFL and yeets me 40 fucking feet. I get being pushed, but I am getting shoved SCREEN LENGHTS backwards and into additional packs. These pushes need to be tuned, and even when I dodge roll PERPENDICULAR to their charge, I get magnetized like a fucking sticky grenade from halo to the charger and pulled along.
I made 2 warriors so far and i like it when attack speed doesn't affect a skill because then I can spec into nodes that give big damage for less speed. Also, I like to get some points into int so I can use blasphemy to curse my enemies to slow them down to my speed.
Man, you hit the nail. I didn't know till play monk, why I was feeling so mixed wiht my warrior. Be able to move with the attack it's a must
I don’t think they will revamp warrior skills. It’s their vision to have the heavy hitter, hard crit tank with slow movement. We will have to wait for full release to play the more balanced marauder (the berserker version of the warrior and the spin to win class).
Different monster types should only have access to a certain pool of modifiers, not all of them. For example, monster types that already have a death effect should be able to get all the rare monster death effect mods, but a random rare spider shouldn’t be able to roll it. Same for a lot of other monster types - slow hulks shouldn’t be getting combinations of mods that make them faster than the player, but it makes sense for a wolf to be hasted
Once all melee weapons are introduced I think the warrior will become much better and versatile than it is now.
Given that it's EA, I don't know that GGG understood (prior to public testing) just how much players would scale relative to the environment. For now, I'd like to think that on-death effects are probably a placeholder (on "difficulty") until the balance between the player and the environment gets brought into line.
To clear this up, I think GGG needs to consider the following:
- Rare mobs must be made more visually distinct (yellow glow?)
- Only blue mobs and up have a chance for on-death effects (I would say rare, but this incentivizes most, if not all, rares to have these effects since there are fewer of these mobs around)
- On-death effects need substantially better telegraphing and the particle pollution from a gazillion graphical elements from skills, monsters, etc. needs to get dialed back just a bit to maintain (visual) clarity on the telegraphing.
- Perhaps a one-use charm that can entirely absorb an on-death effect (if it would effectively kill you in that moment) then it fizzles out for good wouldn't be the worst idea. You'd have to farm these since they'd be single-use.
Tbh I feel like there is a problem with the design of bosses vs non-bossing content. Where your primary defense against boss abilities is well timed dodges, as opposed to having to tank mob damage. Mob density is really high in some places and it doesn’t feel as methodical as the game seems to want to be. A lot of people compare the combat to Elden Ring, but Elden Ring doesn’t have the same mob density. This makes 1 button builds feel significantly better because you don’t have time to press 3 different buttons when 20+ mobs are using you as a raid dummy. I think perhaps regular mobs deal too much damage relative to bosses? I believe GGG will find a way to make this all feel a lot better, and it’s just a matter of waiting. That being said, I’m still enjoying the game immensely and haven’t played anything but PoE 2 ever since EA launched.
I'm really excited for the other melee weapons to get added to the game as, on a fundamental level, I really enjoy the combat design in PoE2. Quarterstaves did feel great, and I've started going through a playthrough with a Mace, though I'm leaning really heavily now into the shield skills, which I also find feel really interesting. The animation cancelling you can do with active block makes me way too happy, and I hope they never try to mess with the ability to do weird micro tricks with it because that's some of my favorite stuff in videogames (PoE: The Duel here we come).
On the monster stuff, I think that many of the rare monster mods should honestly be either reworked heavily or removed entirely as they just feel needlessly obnoxious for melee while also almost irrelevant for ranged play. Like, all the mods that spawn damage areas around the rare do nothing when fighting at range, are awful to deal with at actual melee ranges, and subtract from the actually really good melee mechanics of avoiding or dodging the actual attacks of the very well-designed monsters themselves. I'm not sure what GGG's thinking is with a lot of that stuff, but the actual combat design is really so good, melee or ranged, but for some reason there are these other mechanics that just make it unnecessarily frustrating.
Mist melee skills do have movement baked in. The bigger problem for me is that the movement is always toward the target.
If I could backpeddal while swinging, or circle strafe, it'd fix a lot of problems. Right now, I need to move towards the target or stand still for the whole attack, and that's never going to work if all your weapons attacks are slow.
Maybe it'll fix itself when they come out with other weapon options, and I can switch to mace when I have a big opening?
another thing with POE2 is that while the game seems to be more slow and methodical compared to other ARPGS, those changes didn't apply to monsters. You still get quickly swarmed by a bunch of monsters and your screen is filled with mobs within seconds when you open things such as breaches. They need to make monsters more meaningful by reducing their numbers, making them slower, more powerful and more rewarding.
I think the biggest thing for melee is that it's missing all of the other associated weapons and skills. Unlike Magic missing 1 Class and Ranged missing nothing