This is Kevin Deal, owner of Upscale Audio. I don't tell people to take out stock tubes, and in fact, tell them to wait and play the stock tubes for at least a few hundred hours. I also say high price is no guarantee you will like any NOS tubes, and that we don't make specific recommendations. I'd like the record straight on this.
I remember my father telling me that the Canadian Naval Ship on which he was serving used some vacuum tubes that were only manufactured in Eastern Europe. That was a problem considering that country was still considered part of the Soviet Union at the time. He was a CPO at the time in the communications and testing area of the ship. Many years after he retired his ship became one of the sunken reef project ships on the BC West Coast. The HMCS MacKenzie.
Good for Paul! Yahoo! I love tube amplifiers (I own ARC 250SEs and a luxman CL1000 preamp), and I reliaze that Paul understands it all. Congratulations from another audiphile...
I had a new PS Audio BHK 250 stereo amp on loan for 2 weeks from the dealer. I removed the factory new production Russian made Genalex 6922 pair for a pair of NOS tubes from Tungram (circa 70s production, the Tungsram PCC189). Holy smokes the improvements it immediately made 😳. Paul will eat his words if he heard the difference. Best part.. the Tungrams were only $45 each!
Paul and the team probably tried all tubes they could source enough of. A very limited quantity with better sound wouldn't be an option. Also synergy as always is everything and if you have sharp speakers you might want that softer sound.
What changed? Shouldn't there be no change one tube to the next? Otherwise one tube was distorted the other not, or, distorted differently. Can all that be measured?
@@wilcalint It can surely be measured, but "audiophrenics" won't believe the measurements. Like anti-vaxxers, they prefer to be "anti-objective truths." Most likely, they don't understand the numbers and graphs, are unwilling to read a book on it, so they just reject it as harmful to their self esteem. So they buy the one with the prettiest front panel or the untrue market-speak in the brochure. Or belly up to the cash register and by the one with the big blue meters. (Is it really true that big blue meters make your penis longer?)
I’ve done a fair amount of tube rolling with my amp and found some changes didn’t do much, but others that made big differences. The biggest difference I discovered was the rectifier - going from the OEM tube to a “vintage” Type 80 was WOW!
i love the options to tube roll my bkh pre and 250 amp. i purchase a new set once a month sometimes NOS costing £ 100 or more or just a cheap set at £ 30.all give me system a different sound.its like having a new system when ever i want it.
I recently got a Blue Hawaii headphone amp. EL34 tubes are only used as power tubes, its a hybrid amp. I didn't really notice any difference switching from PSVANE to the "legendary" Mullard XF2. According to amp builders tube rolling the power tubes has the least amount of change to the sound.
"Half the fun," *and 100% of the trouble* with owning vacuum tube equipment. The low-power preamp-type tubes like the 12AX7 age slowly because they don't get very hot. Output tubes change a lot with age, as they get very hot and conduct lots of energy; the cathode weakens and the plates outgas ions inside the bottle. Generally, there aren't supposed to be gases in the bottle. And as they age, the circuits that designers locked in the amp change their operating points. Once out of range, time to change tubes. In the bad old days, when all we had were tubes, there were always microphonics issues -- you know, the elements inside the glass bottle -- would vibrate and make wong bong bruuung noises in the output. We always had a bunch of spare tubes near the device to swap out the microphonic tube. Once microphonic, a tube was scrapped. Hit it with a hammer to be sure no one else tries it. I know purists who wouldn't allow a tone control in their system (know anyone like that here?) who will gleefully swap out tubes to 'improve' the sound. What they are really doing is shoving around the operating points of those tubes, which of course can change what the amp does to a high hat or a snare sound. Rolling tubes to change tonality is like adding a tone control with just two positions: "I like this better," and "I like this worse." And no labels. It's a home hobbyist crapshoot. But maybe it keeps them home and out of the tavern. Yet tube rollers will not be dissuaded. The same sort of thinkers who keep trying different gasoline brands and grades to make their 2022 Toyota regular gas engine run "better."
Tube rolling to change the sound of an amplifier is like eating ice cream. Think of tubes like flavors. Not that one is better than the other, just different. Sometimes you dont want chocolate every time. Yes. There are some that you wont like, but you'll end up with a bunch that you love.
Sorry Paul, I am not convinced that (to name just one option) NOS Mullard tubes where part of the design considerations for PS Audio products. Consequently I am also not convinced that the stock tubes are guaranteed the best ones.
Previously, Paul talked about not trialling NOS tubes in new PS Audio products, since they were limited in supply and more expensive. They only test a few new production tubes.
I cant find good 6dj8s's for my counterpoint SA 220. the last time i re-tubed it i had access to thousands of tubes to test before i bought them It took me a full day to find a good quartet for my amp.
I think Paul should have clarified that he uses the best CURRENT PRODUCTION TUBES that he can find IN QUANTITY for his amps/preamps. They are certainly better NOS tubes out there that WILL sound better in his products, but those would be impractical for him to use because of lack of quantity available and price of those tubes compared to current production ones that he uses.
The only tube amps I would get are the old school 60s stereo tube amps. They sound great and the tubes are so cheap. The 3" high narrow standard tubes and 2" high pre amp tubes. I want one like the ones I had in the 80s, from second hand shops for a song. I sold my best one and my other Sansui tube reciever broke and blew tubes. And didn't sound as good as the one I sold (maybe cos it had a problem). You pay premium for then now (if you can get one).
Although I am a decided sceptic with respect to audio claims (have never heard a difference in any cable), no question about tubes, they do sound different. Not every single one, but usually they do. Lots of fun! Re NOS "lots out there", it depends a lot. A WE 422 in my Woo headphone amp is not easy or cheap to come by but miles better than the stock.
Tube rolling might not be such a valuable thing to do if there were any Really good tubes being made today. I don't have enough experience with swapping tubes around to have a good store of knowledge on the subject, but it Definitely makes a difference. One Fender Hot Rod Deluxe I serviced squealed like a pig until I figured out that the cheap chinese 12AX7 in the first stage had so much gain it should have been given a different type number. Stuck in the phase splitter position, it behaved itself a Little better.
Of course Paul is completely correct but let me add something if I may. How much difference tube rolling makes in the sound of a tube circuit strongly depends on how much feedback is used in that circuit. Most modern tube audio circuits use little if any feedback thus different tubes can sound vastly different. However, if the circuit uses a considerable amount of feedback, say above 20 dB, the differences heard between different tubes (of the same designation, of course, and excluding defective or dying tubes) can be minuscule. Guitar amps tend to have very little to no feedback, but consumer hi-fi amps of the late 50’s and 60’s tend to use lots of feedback as it was then that the specification wars were just starting to heat up.
Paul, would a power amplifier perform better if the tubes are matched? I recently replaced 4 EL 84s(matched) and 3ECC 83(matched) on my Leak 20+ also,do you think I should replace the ECC83s on the Leak Vary Slope pre-amp? The power amp sounded fantastic with a lot of new detail and a rich bass that I never head before on very femilier vinyl. Thanks.
Absolutely absolutely buy a matched set of EL84s. For the extra couple dollars it’s well worth it and your output transformer and ears will thank you. They will last longer, too, because a mismatched set in a push-pull output stage like your Leak will stress one tube and partially ignore the other, increasing distortion because the distortion cancellation inherent to the push-pull configuration is compromised.
I do change tubes in my amp, but always thought "tube rolling" was confusing to any persons like myself, who used to work in steel mills where tubes and rolling mean entirely different stuff!
Trouble is the good sounding tubes are vintage and expensive. I use what Audio Research chose for my preamp. They say INDIA on them but I don't think they were made in INDIA. I put the tubes in about 40 years ago. I changed the tubes with new INDIA tubes after 3 years and I heard no difference so I put the old tubes back and I'm still using them today.
Question - Do "opamps" perfrom a similar role for solid state amp that tubes do for tube-based amps? I mean, the video points out changing (rolling) tubes can improve the sound, so apparently swapping opamps can likewise improve the sound of an amp. Do I have this right? Can you elaborate? Thanks.
@Douglas Blake > Rolling Op-Amps isn't going to have the same effect Less distortion? > Tubes are highly variable on almost every parameter So being different one tube to the next one is distorted, the other not. Or both are distorted differently so they both sound different? Can all that be measured?
@Douglas Blake Then why are there obvious audible difference one tube to the next and over time? Are distortion components creeping into tube amps? And in such a short period of time? Just months.
@Douglas Blake FWIW I have a working Nelson Pass designed preamp nearly 40-years old. All discreet SS design. As far as I can tell is sounds exactly the same from day one on 1991 to today.
@Douglas Blake For years I've driven my Sub with a Crown amp. Once with a DC300A ( gave it away ) and then a DC60 ( I still have that ) which was pretty neat. Now it's being driven by a bridged Crown XLS1000.
Help me understand this. According to Paul he rolls tubes to "get more life in it". Well the tube device sounds like "A" on day 1 and "B" on day 270. Then he rolls new tubes in there and doing that gets more life in it. So that means the sound changed ( distorted??? ) from A to B. Right? Can that change be measured and quantified?
It's a very interesting subject normal lab measurements I'm sure wont show any differences in different tubes but the internal construction by manufacturers vary a lot this could be the subjective reason
okay this is how my brain is on this ,tubes have a graphene plate as these get used up and degrade the tone (filter points of resonance) change sweeten but it's all human preferment? as wells as attack and decay response.
I don’t mean to be a contrarian, but I know for certain with high gain guitar amplifiers, changing the tubes makes virtually no difference whatsoever. There are a few videos about this, my favorite being one from SpectreSound Studios.
My advice, shop from eBay or forums classifieds. Avoid tube dealers and websites, as you’re going to overpay big time. Like $200 for a crap sounding RCA 6AS7G. NOS is nice but not necessary either.
Tubes belong in tires , and even there they are on the way out too. Would you buy a car with an engine you need to swap every year to keep it what it was ? Im rapidly coming to the conclusion that I dont actually like Hifi ,,,, I just like music .
This is Kevin Deal, owner of Upscale Audio. I don't tell people to take out stock tubes, and in fact, tell them to wait and play the stock tubes for at least a few hundred hours. I also say high price is no guarantee you will like any NOS tubes, and that we don't make specific recommendations. I'd like the record straight on this.
Tube rolling is realy worth it. On my pre amp it can make a difference of day and night
I remember my father telling me that the Canadian Naval Ship on which he was serving used some vacuum tubes that were only manufactured in Eastern Europe. That was a problem considering that country was still considered part of the Soviet Union at the time. He was a CPO at the time in the communications and testing area of the ship. Many years after he retired his ship became one of the sunken reef project ships on the BC West Coast. The HMCS MacKenzie.
Good for Paul! Yahoo! I love tube amplifiers (I own ARC 250SEs and a luxman CL1000 preamp), and I reliaze that Paul understands it all. Congratulations from another audiphile...
Done a lot of this in guitar and bass amps. In my experience, mileage varies greatly depending on the circuit design.
I can dig the bit about "Rolling the product", Paul...Lol!
I had a new PS Audio BHK 250 stereo amp on loan for 2 weeks from the dealer. I removed the factory new production Russian made Genalex 6922 pair for a pair of NOS tubes from Tungram (circa 70s production, the Tungsram PCC189). Holy smokes the improvements it immediately made 😳. Paul will eat his words if he heard the difference. Best part.. the Tungrams were only $45 each!
thats great for everyone , except the sales guy.
Paul and the team probably tried all tubes they could source enough of. A very limited quantity with better sound wouldn't be an option. Also synergy as always is everything and if you have sharp speakers you might want that softer sound.
What changed? Shouldn't there be no change one tube to the next? Otherwise one tube was distorted the other not, or, distorted differently. Can all that be measured?
@@wilcalint It can surely be measured, but "audiophrenics" won't believe the measurements. Like anti-vaxxers, they prefer to be "anti-objective truths." Most likely, they don't understand the numbers and graphs, are unwilling to read a book on it, so they just reject it as harmful to their self esteem. So they buy the one with the prettiest front panel or the untrue market-speak in the brochure. Or belly up to the cash register and by the one with the big blue meters.
(Is it really true that big blue meters make your penis longer?)
@@jimshaw899 No, but in my neighborhood it seems that owners of huge pickup trucks hold that belief.
Definitely makes a difference in my guitar amps...fun,geeky stuff
I’ve done a fair amount of tube rolling with my amp and found some changes didn’t do much, but others that made big differences. The biggest difference I discovered was the rectifier - going from the OEM tube to a “vintage” Type 80 was WOW!
I'm from Vancouver, BC and I'm still doing a lot of tube rolling and "rollin":) Thanks for the video, Paul!:)
We salute your truckers!!!
i love the options to tube roll my bkh pre and 250 amp. i purchase a new set once a month sometimes NOS costing £ 100 or more or just a cheap set at £ 30.all give me system a different sound.its like having a new system when ever i want it.
I recently got a Blue Hawaii headphone amp. EL34 tubes are only used as power tubes, its a hybrid amp. I didn't really notice any difference switching from PSVANE to the "legendary" Mullard XF2. According to amp builders tube rolling the power tubes has the least amount of change to the sound.
"Half the fun," *and 100% of the trouble* with owning vacuum tube equipment. The low-power preamp-type tubes like the 12AX7 age slowly because they don't get very hot. Output tubes change a lot with age, as they get very hot and conduct lots of energy; the cathode weakens and the plates outgas ions inside the bottle. Generally, there aren't supposed to be gases in the bottle. And as they age, the circuits that designers locked in the amp change their operating points. Once out of range, time to change tubes.
In the bad old days, when all we had were tubes, there were always microphonics issues -- you know, the elements inside the glass bottle -- would vibrate and make wong bong bruuung noises in the output. We always had a bunch of spare tubes near the device to swap out the microphonic tube. Once microphonic, a tube was scrapped. Hit it with a hammer to be sure no one else tries it.
I know purists who wouldn't allow a tone control in their system (know anyone like that here?) who will gleefully swap out tubes to 'improve' the sound. What they are really doing is shoving around the operating points of those tubes, which of course can change what the amp does to a high hat or a snare sound. Rolling tubes to change tonality is like adding a tone control with just two positions: "I like this better," and "I like this worse." And no labels. It's a home hobbyist crapshoot. But maybe it keeps them home and out of the tavern.
Yet tube rollers will not be dissuaded. The same sort of thinkers who keep trying different gasoline brands and grades to make their 2022 Toyota regular gas engine run "better."
Noticed how you were very clear by saying, "There's a huge difference", not that it makes a "good" difference. And that makes a difference ;-)
It is up to the listener to decide if the difference is good or bad, think synergy.
It’s like an Easter egg roll, but you bring your 1950s McIntosh and Marantz units instead of crates of eggs.
Tube rolling to change the sound of an amplifier is like eating ice cream. Think of tubes like flavors. Not that one is better than the other, just different. Sometimes you dont want chocolate every time. Yes. There are some that you wont like, but you'll end up with a bunch that you love.
Sorry Paul, I am not convinced that (to name just one option) NOS Mullard tubes where part of the design considerations for PS Audio products. Consequently I am also not convinced that the stock tubes are guaranteed the best ones.
Previously, Paul talked about not trialling NOS tubes in new PS Audio products, since they were limited in supply and more expensive. They only test a few new production tubes.
I cant find good 6dj8s's for my counterpoint SA 220. the last time i re-tubed it i had access to thousands of tubes to test before i bought them It took me a full day to find a good quartet for my amp.
HAHAHA was Paul low key talking about his day way back when he was young and maybe a little bit of a hippie rolling joints?
I think Paul should have clarified that he uses the best CURRENT PRODUCTION TUBES that he can find IN QUANTITY for his amps/preamps. They are certainly better NOS tubes out there that WILL sound better in his products, but those would be impractical for him to use because of lack of quantity available and price of those tubes compared to current production ones that he uses.
The only tube amps I would get are the old school 60s stereo tube amps. They sound great and the tubes are so cheap. The 3" high narrow standard tubes and 2" high pre amp tubes. I want one like the ones I had in the 80s, from second hand shops for a song. I sold my best one and my other Sansui tube reciever broke and blew tubes. And didn't sound as good as the one I sold (maybe cos it had a problem). You pay premium for then now (if you can get one).
gonna make sure the tubes are low noise and matched or you’ll degrade the sound of the amplifier/preamplifier.
Paul may have quit his rolling years ago, but that's because in Colorado it's legal, and it's easier to buy pre-rolled. lol.
Although I am a decided sceptic with respect to audio claims (have never heard a difference in any cable), no question about tubes, they do sound different. Not every single one, but usually they do. Lots of fun! Re NOS "lots out there", it depends a lot. A WE 422 in my Woo headphone amp is not easy or cheap to come by but miles better than the stock.
Who is this audiologist we are supposed to be visiting
Tube rolling might not be such a valuable thing to do if there were any Really good tubes being made today.
I don't have enough experience with swapping tubes around to have a good store of knowledge on the subject,
but it Definitely makes a difference.
One Fender Hot Rod Deluxe I serviced squealed like a pig until I figured out that the cheap chinese 12AX7 in the first stage
had so much gain it should have been given a different type number.
Stuck in the phase splitter position, it behaved itself a Little better.
Of course Paul is completely correct but let me add something if I may. How much difference tube rolling makes in the sound of a tube circuit strongly depends on how much feedback is used in that circuit. Most modern tube audio circuits use little if any feedback thus different tubes can sound vastly different. However, if the circuit uses a considerable amount of feedback, say above 20 dB, the differences heard between different tubes (of the same designation, of course, and excluding defective or dying tubes) can be minuscule. Guitar amps tend to have very little to no feedback, but consumer hi-fi amps of the late 50’s and 60’s tend to use lots of feedback as it was then that the specification wars were just starting to heat up.
Paul, would a power amplifier perform better if the tubes are matched? I recently replaced 4 EL 84s(matched) and 3ECC 83(matched) on my Leak 20+ also,do you think I should replace the ECC83s on the Leak Vary Slope pre-amp? The power amp sounded fantastic with a lot of new detail and a rich bass that I never head before on very femilier vinyl. Thanks.
Absolutely absolutely buy a matched set of EL84s. For the extra couple dollars it’s well worth it and your output transformer and ears will thank you. They will last longer, too, because a mismatched set in a push-pull output stage like your Leak will stress one tube and partially ignore the other, increasing distortion because the distortion cancellation inherent to the push-pull configuration is compromised.
I do change tubes in my amp, but always thought "tube rolling" was confusing to any persons like myself, who used to work in steel mills where tubes and rolling mean entirely different stuff!
Where do BHK tubes come from?
Trouble is the good sounding tubes are vintage and expensive. I use what Audio Research chose for my preamp. They say INDIA on them but I don't think they were made in INDIA. I put the tubes in about 40 years ago. I changed the tubes with new INDIA tubes after 3 years and I heard no difference so I put the old tubes back and I'm still using them today.
what is the tube you use then make and model. Chinese aren't they
Question - Do "opamps" perfrom a similar role for solid state amp that tubes do for tube-based amps? I mean, the video points out changing (rolling) tubes can improve the sound, so apparently swapping opamps can likewise improve the sound of an amp. Do I have this right? Can you elaborate? Thanks.
@Douglas Blake > Rolling Op-Amps isn't going to have the same effect
Less distortion?
> Tubes are highly variable on almost every parameter
So being different one tube to the next one is distorted, the other not. Or both are distorted differently so they both sound different?
Can all that be measured?
@Douglas Blake Then why are there obvious audible difference one tube to the next and over time? Are distortion components creeping into tube amps? And in such a short period of time? Just months.
@Douglas Blake FWIW I was designing LM709 circuits back in the early 1970's.
@Douglas Blake FWIW I have a working Nelson Pass designed preamp nearly 40-years old. All discreet SS design. As far as I can tell is sounds exactly the same from day one on 1991 to today.
@Douglas Blake For years I've driven my Sub with a Crown amp. Once with a DC300A ( gave it away ) and then a DC60 ( I still have that ) which was pretty neat. Now it's being driven by a bridged Crown XLS1000.
Help me understand this. According to Paul he rolls tubes to "get more life in it". Well the tube device sounds like "A" on day 1 and "B" on day 270. Then he rolls new tubes in there and doing that gets more life in it. So that means the sound changed ( distorted??? ) from A to B. Right? Can that change be measured and quantified?
@Douglas Blake Have you ever seen a Fast Fourier on any tubes? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform
It's a very interesting subject normal lab measurements I'm sure wont show any differences in different tubes but the internal construction by manufacturers vary a lot this could be the subjective reason
@Douglas Blake The humble tube tester indeed we all had one in the old days thanks for comments
@Douglas Blake cheers
Love the little stoner jokes
I noticed that for headphone tube amps there’s some squealing noise on some power tubes even though they function properly. Is this normal?
Yes if your tube amp is made in China
@@hugobloemers4425 rude, the amp itself has no squeal, it's just some power tubes that make the sound.
@Douglas Blake nothing for me, i ended up replacing the power tubes though and the noise is gone. Thanks for your response!
I have found a very steep hill makes them role really easily 😂😂😂😂😂
You can't transistor roll that easily but you can transistor amp roll.
Tubes = Fancy light bulbs 💡& usually electrically smoother than transistors.
basically its what is your flavor of distortion you prefer....
okay this is how my brain is on this ,tubes have a graphene plate as these get used up and degrade the tone (filter points of resonance) change sweeten but it's all human preferment? as wells as attack and decay response.
Is the change, A sound to B sound, not distortion?
All i use is NOS tubes
It sounds like tubes are very maintenance intensive. I don't think I'd could keep up with that ritual.
Some guys don't stop at tubes, they roll whole power amplifiers a few times per year.
I don’t mean to be a contrarian, but I know for certain with high gain guitar amplifiers, changing the tubes makes virtually no difference whatsoever. There are a few videos about this, my favorite being one from SpectreSound Studios.
I replaced the tubes in my Conrad Johnson after 10 yrs & couldn't hear any difference...To many people hear with their eyes not their ears...
My advice, shop from eBay or forums classifieds. Avoid tube dealers and websites, as you’re going to overpay big time. Like $200 for a crap sounding RCA 6AS7G. NOS is nice but not necessary either.
There is a big difference between toobs and tewbs
Have never understood the anger behind tube rolling. Put some Tung-Sols into a McIntosh tube amp & the community reacted as if I committed sacrilege.
Last
Tubes belong in tires , and even there they are on the way out too. Would you buy a car with an engine you need to swap every year to keep it what it was ? Im rapidly coming to the conclusion that I dont actually like Hifi ,,,, I just like music .
Booooooo non believer!
First
th-cam.com/video/gCCD40eB-cU/w-d-xo.html
first what?
@@jamesplotkin4674 first to stick his thumb up his rear end
Definitely not the first who has something to contribute.
I'm trying to be last, it's a lot more difficult to do...