I am enjoying Mr. Wray's presentations so very much and am coming away with whole new perspectives to study. I'm also taking away the knowledge that "Astrological Machinery" and "Attachment to the Universe Machine" would make for a *killer* prog metal albums titles.
Would be very interested to hear what your views are on John Lamb Lash's book "Not In His Image" - where JLL presents extensive arguments that Gnostics were NOT Christian (contrary to the "mainstream" views presented by Christian scholars like Elaine Pagels et al.). JLL has some VERY different takes on Sophia, the Archons, the Aeons, the Pleroma and especially the three Abrahamic "faiths".
At around 19:00, the author says that the gospels teach that one must find himself by losing himself. None of the gospels teach anything about finding oneself. The context of the passage says (in Matthew only) that he who loses his life shall find it but the other gospels (Mark and Luke) say, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:24). The Gnostic philosophy of finding oneself is much like the world's same philosophy - getting to know yourself. Connecting with who you are inside. "Know thyself" (an ancient Greek philosophy).
I used to think this way as well. I have changed my thinking on this. Here is something that might be helpful: John Calvin says “Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. Our wisdom, insofar as it ought to be deemed true and solid wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other.”
@@jeredmckenna - Moses tells us that we were created in God's image and likeness. People are afraid to confess that sometimes because we can be pretty scary and messed up sometimes but don't you know that God Himself is tempted to go off the deep end too? They say that absolute power corrupts absolutely but God has a quality about Himself that prevents that eventuality. Who better to entrust the kingdom to? Do I lust? I am made in my Creators image. Do I fear? I am like Him. Am I a little crazy sometimes? So is God. But God is in control of all these things. He's perfect. We are flesh (i.e. part critter) but with the capacity to receive God's Spirit. Receiving God's Spirit is the major point of Christ's advent. Prior to the New Covenant, this benefit (this Spirit) was not generally available (His Spirit had not yet been poured out). But at His ascension, His Spirit became widely available - to the Jew first and also to the Greek. If you understand God then you automatically understand (ot know) yourself. This is why the scriptures spend do much time explaining who God is and hardly any time explaining who we are. Or so it seems to me. Understand the Creator and you will understand yourself. And you will have killed two birds with one stone 🙂
I'm interested in what the source of information is that Jesus walking on water was a demonstration that he was a divine being who could walk on the water above the firmament.
In order to understand Jesus Christ, you have to understand the Hebrews and their culture and their way of life. Otherwise everything becomes meaningless. The symbology and terminology is all based on the Hebrews and the way of life of the Hebrews.
More food for thought: The Gnostic Christians used astrology, and the Didache Christians forbade astrology; thereby rejecting the Gnostic Christians. ' ' Be neither an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a purifier, nor be willing to look at these things, for out of all these idolatry is engendered.' ' (Didache 3:4)
Modern astrologers are seeing that progression from that amulet too. Only they are including Ophichius as a bridge between Scorpio and Sagittarius. Both constellations cross the ecliptic and the sun can be in both. A person can rise above Scorpio and become a higher self in Ophichius who then becomes Sagittarius conquering. The amulet didn’t show Libra and the claws of Scorpio at one time included Libra. Babylonians did have that constellation but it’s been kept a secret. Becoming Ophichius is to make friends with the serpent and describes the mysticism and inward path of Gnostic experience. The amulet facing forward with Sagittarius and Scorpio behind puts the wearer of the amulet in Ophichius. So some modern astrologers that use the 13 signs are seeing this old religion come back to life themselves. The gate in Cancer is pointed to by the star Antares where the foot crushes the head of Scorpio. It lines up with 8th/9th house cusp associated with occult knowledge and death along with religion.
@James Tabor Thank you for bringing Mr. Wray's work to my attention. I have long been aware of the undeniable Astrotheological aspects of Jesus Christ and Early Christianity, but if accurate, then it is difficult to reconcile it with the 1st Century Torah-Orthodox Zealot, if I am correct, advanced in your work, as well as the work of other Historicists.
What about Job 38? You must correlate with a Babylonian zodiac and it's offerings. 25-27: Aries 31-32: Pleiades, Orion, Ursa Major, another unknown 36: Gemini or possibly Aquarius 37: Aquarius 39-40: Leo 41: Virgo References to astrology would mean a culture that practiced it.
@@trentlytle7289 Astrology is "idolatry" as stated in Deuteronomy chapter 2, from the fact that there were worshipers of stars and zodiac signs it should not be concluded that this is the essence of the Jewish or Christian religion, many Jews and Christians and Muslims continued and continue to worship idols even today. In the book of Job, the scripture describes the power of Jehovah in a number of rhetorical questions.
@@pompeii357 but the verses in chapter 38 specifically refer to constellations in a zodiac. You can't explain Orion and the Pleiades any other way. God is telling the story of his power by describing how He laid out the heavens. If you venerate God, and understand that he controls the heavens, then astrology isn't condemned in any part of Deuteronomy. You're forbidden from confusing the constellations for other gods and worshipping them.
@@trentlytle7289the names of the Hebrew mazzaroth were in fact changed to pagan constellations. Furthermore, if one was to truly understand Hebrew cosmology (most scholars do not), they would understand that the stars themselves were focal points - NOT asterisms or constellations. Job 38 31Do you bind the bands of Kimah, or loosen the cords of Kesil? 32Do you bring out the constellations in its season? Or do you lead the Bear with its sons?
@@gileadtenn From my Hebrew Study Bible, "The identification of the constellations is uncertain, although there is wide agreement concerning Pleiades and Orion. The cords and reigns suggests they are imagined as large animals (Pleiades is located within Taurus, the bull). Alternately, they may reflect the notion that the constellations are moved across the sky with bands as in Enuma Elish V 1-10 bear... Sons, probably Aldebaran (eye of the Bull) and Hyades
Argh, Enlil, Enki and Anu were Sumerian Gods, not Babylonian. Sumer: Anu (heavenly, sky, Taurus, Father, Bull), Enki (Wisdom, Trickery, Aquarius, Divine water), _Enlil (Power, strength, war), Ninhursag (Mother, place, land), dozens of other gods Akkad: ilu (See Anu, owns the Bull), Ishtar (Seduction, War, daughter of illil, venus), Ea (See Enki, god of sages, Apkullu), Illil (war power now belongs to Ishtar), PreBabylonian: Anat, Marduk, Nabu are added as Sumer secures land to the East after the gutians are kicked out. 100s of gods Substrate Canaanite: Dagan (father), Hadat, Yam, Gad, Mot, Atharath, Yerickt, Post Sargonic Canaanite: El Elyon (ilu), the Akkadian pantheon plus most substrate Canaanite gods (Sargon apparently annihilated some cities an replaced their gods with Akkadian version). Akkadian gods begin taking on Canaanite flavor (Ea -> Yahu), Anat contends as a major female god, Babylon: Old, pretty much same as Akkad. Adad and some canaanite gods are added Assyrian: Ilu, Ea, _Asshur_, Ishtar, bunches of other gods. Neobabylonia. Marduk, Nabo, Ea, Ishtar, ilu, . . . . .illil (Enlil) is
Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Orphism, Zoroastrianism, Egyptian astrology and to a lesser extent Buddhism all influenced what we call Gnosticism and they all predate Christianity. The Gnostics blended elements from all these and more traditions into a series of beautiful religious ideologies.
Gnostic Christians are not a thing. If you're Gnostic, you're NOT Christian. You may claim to be a Christian but not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jehovah's Witnesses are Gnostics - they don't believe that God was made flesh and dwelt among us. They have neither the Father nor the Son. Catholicism profane the name of God by its very existence, all the while calling itself "Christian". Being a follower of God has certain defined parameters and those who systematically go outside those parameters are in transgression. Therefore, it is critical that one knows the word of God. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our paths. Without it, we stumble and fall.
Antidocetism was a decision in 325 by the Catholic Church, which at the Council of Nicea was trying to organize and control what was allowed and disallowed, and what language to use in this first bishop's meeting of the kind. There are many arguments for and against early opinions. In this case, the Gnostic docetitsts had John in their favor. The inconsistencies and disagreements of the Gospels with each other and the Torah caused many uncomfortable problems; John, Paul, and Peter plus other early writings make arguments that Jesus wasn't flesh. It wasn't only Gnostics who read them literally. As far as determining who is and is not a real Christian despite what they say, I'm always reminded of Jesus's words in Matthew, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." As a mendecant who followed Torah and spoke against hypocrites, it seems he wouldn't be able to endorse most positions of Church, which introduced human sacrifice, drinking of blood, and spurning the Sabbath, to name a few scandals Christians introduced as "truth."
@@paigerasmussen5212 - Just claiming to be something without showing the receipts is called being a phony. How many people who claim to be Christians don't even have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yu can be a good Baptist and not be a Christian. You can be a good Catholic and not be a Christian. Words have meaning. Bible words are defined by the bible. "Christian" is such a word. Not sure what you meant by "John, Paul, and Peter plus other early writings make arguments that Jesus wasn't flesh." John is the one who gave us these very words, "The word was made flesh and dwelt among us." So, I think your argument just went off the rails. Gnosticism is NOT Christianity. It's incompatible with the word of God both Old Testament and New. The theology of the demiurge is unknown to scripture. That stuff came from outside the scriptures.
Oh yea? 2 Corinthians 4:4 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
More Gnosticism analyses please!
I am enjoying Mr. Wray's presentations so very much and am coming away with whole new perspectives to study.
I'm also taking away the knowledge that "Astrological Machinery" and "Attachment to the Universe Machine" would make for a *killer* prog metal albums titles.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge I appreciate the information it helps me a lot for understanding God Bless 🥰
Would be very interested to hear what your views are on John Lamb Lash's book "Not In His Image" - where JLL presents extensive arguments that Gnostics were NOT Christian (contrary to the "mainstream" views presented by Christian scholars like Elaine Pagels et al.). JLL has some VERY different takes on Sophia, the Archons, the Aeons, the Pleroma and especially the three Abrahamic "faiths".
Love everything you post, James, but am having real trouble digesting this. Is there a primer?
There is Bart D Ehrman's podcast Misquoting Jesus. Just start at the first one and make your way up.
If you need a primer on gnosticism see TH-cam channel Esoterica. He has a video on the apocryphon of john that will give you a start
At around 19:00, the author says that the gospels teach that one must find himself by losing himself. None of the gospels teach anything about finding oneself. The context of the passage says (in Matthew only) that he who loses his life shall find it but the other gospels (Mark and Luke) say, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:24).
The Gnostic philosophy of finding oneself is much like the world's same philosophy - getting to know yourself. Connecting with who you are inside. "Know thyself" (an ancient Greek philosophy).
I used to think this way as well. I have changed my thinking on this. Here is something that might be helpful:
John Calvin says “Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. Our wisdom, insofar as it ought to be deemed true and solid wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other.”
@@jeredmckenna - Moses tells us that we were created in God's image and likeness. People are afraid to confess that sometimes because we can be pretty scary and messed up sometimes but don't you know that God Himself is tempted to go off the deep end too? They say that absolute power corrupts absolutely but God has a quality about Himself that prevents that eventuality. Who better to entrust the kingdom to? Do I lust? I am made in my Creators image. Do I fear? I am like Him. Am I a little crazy sometimes? So is God. But God is in control of all these things. He's perfect. We are flesh (i.e. part critter) but with the capacity to receive God's Spirit. Receiving God's Spirit is the major point of Christ's advent. Prior to the New Covenant, this benefit (this Spirit) was not generally available (His Spirit had not yet been poured out). But at His ascension, His Spirit became widely available - to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
If you understand God then you automatically understand (ot know) yourself. This is why the scriptures spend do much time explaining who God is and hardly any time explaining who we are. Or so it seems to me. Understand the Creator and you will understand yourself. And you will have killed two birds with one stone 🙂
Good🤓More cool stuff 🤓
I'm interested in what the source of information is that Jesus walking on water was a demonstration that he was a divine being who could walk on the water above the firmament.
El is Taurus, the Bull,
El the god of the father, the father of the gods, the bull
Tornado bearing.down on Charlotte. Take cover my son!!
In order to understand Jesus Christ, you have to understand the Hebrews and their culture and their way of life. Otherwise everything becomes meaningless. The symbology and terminology is all based on the Hebrews and the way of life of the Hebrews.
More food for thought: The Gnostic Christians used astrology, and the Didache Christians forbade astrology; thereby rejecting the Gnostic Christians.
' ' Be neither an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a purifier, nor be willing to look at these things, for out of all these idolatry is engendered.' ' (Didache 3:4)
All of those things were already prohibited by the Torah and mentioned multiple times. Astrology is included as a "divination" of the heavens.
Modern astrologers are seeing that progression from that amulet too. Only they are including Ophichius as a bridge between Scorpio and Sagittarius. Both constellations cross the ecliptic and the sun can be in both. A person can rise above Scorpio and become a higher self in Ophichius who then becomes Sagittarius conquering. The amulet didn’t show Libra and the claws of Scorpio at one time included Libra. Babylonians did have that constellation but it’s been kept a secret. Becoming Ophichius is to make friends with the serpent and describes the mysticism and inward path of Gnostic experience. The amulet facing forward with Sagittarius and Scorpio behind puts the wearer of the amulet in Ophichius. So some modern astrologers that use the 13 signs are seeing this old religion come back to life themselves. The gate in Cancer is pointed to by the star Antares where the foot crushes the head of Scorpio. It lines up with 8th/9th house cusp associated with occult knowledge and death along with religion.
@James Tabor Thank you for bringing Mr. Wray's work to my attention. I have long been aware of the undeniable Astrotheological aspects of Jesus Christ and Early Christianity, but if accurate, then it is difficult to reconcile it with the 1st Century Torah-Orthodox Zealot, if I am correct, advanced in your work, as well as the work of other Historicists.
What about Deuteronomy 4 ,15-20?
What about Job 38? You must correlate with a Babylonian zodiac and it's offerings.
25-27: Aries
31-32: Pleiades, Orion, Ursa Major, another unknown
36: Gemini or possibly Aquarius
37: Aquarius
39-40: Leo
41: Virgo
References to astrology would mean a culture that practiced it.
@@trentlytle7289 Astrology is "idolatry" as stated in Deuteronomy chapter 2, from the fact that there were worshipers of stars and zodiac signs it should not be concluded that this is the essence of the Jewish or Christian religion, many Jews and Christians and Muslims continued and continue to worship idols even today.
In the book of Job, the scripture describes the power of Jehovah in a number of rhetorical questions.
@@pompeii357 but the verses in chapter 38 specifically refer to constellations in a zodiac. You can't explain Orion and the Pleiades any other way. God is telling the story of his power by describing how He laid out the heavens. If you venerate God, and understand that he controls the heavens, then astrology isn't condemned in any part of Deuteronomy. You're forbidden from confusing the constellations for other gods and worshipping them.
@@trentlytle7289the names of the Hebrew mazzaroth were in fact changed to pagan constellations. Furthermore, if one was to truly understand Hebrew cosmology (most scholars do not), they would understand that the stars themselves were focal points - NOT asterisms or constellations.
Job 38
31Do you bind the bands of Kimah, or loosen the cords of Kesil?
32Do you bring out the constellations in its season? Or do you lead the Bear with its sons?
@@gileadtenn From my Hebrew Study Bible, "The identification of the constellations is uncertain, although there is wide agreement concerning Pleiades and Orion. The cords and reigns suggests they are imagined as large animals (Pleiades is located within Taurus, the bull). Alternately, they may reflect the notion that the constellations are moved across the sky with bands as in Enuma Elish V 1-10 bear... Sons, probably Aldebaran (eye of the Bull) and Hyades
Argh,
Enlil, Enki and Anu were Sumerian Gods, not Babylonian.
Sumer:
Anu (heavenly, sky, Taurus, Father, Bull), Enki (Wisdom, Trickery, Aquarius, Divine water), _Enlil (Power, strength, war), Ninhursag (Mother, place, land), dozens of other gods
Akkad:
ilu (See Anu, owns the Bull), Ishtar (Seduction, War, daughter of illil, venus), Ea (See Enki, god of sages, Apkullu), Illil (war power now belongs to Ishtar),
PreBabylonian: Anat, Marduk, Nabu are added as Sumer secures land to the East after the gutians are kicked out. 100s of gods
Substrate Canaanite: Dagan (father), Hadat, Yam, Gad, Mot, Atharath, Yerickt,
Post Sargonic Canaanite: El Elyon (ilu), the Akkadian pantheon plus most substrate Canaanite gods (Sargon apparently annihilated some cities an replaced their gods with Akkadian version). Akkadian gods begin taking on Canaanite flavor (Ea -> Yahu), Anat contends as a major female god,
Babylon: Old, pretty much same as Akkad. Adad and some canaanite gods are added
Assyrian: Ilu, Ea, _Asshur_, Ishtar, bunches of other gods.
Neobabylonia. Marduk, Nabo, Ea, Ishtar, ilu, . . . . .illil (Enlil) is
One cannot listen to this without seeing that Gnosticism was pre-Christian.
Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Orphism, Zoroastrianism, Egyptian astrology and to a lesser extent Buddhism all influenced what we call Gnosticism and they all predate Christianity. The Gnostics blended elements from all these and more traditions into a series of beautiful religious ideologies.
Gnosticism is the religion of the age the logos/Christ taught it in the beginning of Pisces,so it’s Christianity because he taught it.
Gnostic Christians are not a thing. If you're Gnostic, you're NOT Christian. You may claim to be a Christian but not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jehovah's Witnesses are Gnostics - they don't believe that God was made flesh and dwelt among us. They have neither the Father nor the Son. Catholicism profane the name of God by its very existence, all the while calling itself "Christian".
Being a follower of God has certain defined parameters and those who systematically go outside those parameters are in transgression. Therefore, it is critical that one knows the word of God. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our paths. Without it, we stumble and fall.
Ok boomer
Antidocetism was a decision in 325 by the Catholic Church, which at the Council of Nicea was trying to organize and control what was allowed and disallowed, and what language to use in this first bishop's meeting of the kind. There are many arguments for and against early opinions. In this case, the Gnostic docetitsts had John in their favor. The inconsistencies and disagreements of the Gospels with each other and the Torah caused many uncomfortable problems; John, Paul, and Peter plus other early writings make arguments that Jesus wasn't flesh. It wasn't only Gnostics who read them literally.
As far as determining who is and is not a real Christian despite what they say, I'm always reminded of Jesus's words in Matthew, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." As a mendecant who followed Torah and spoke against hypocrites, it seems he wouldn't be able to endorse most positions of Church, which introduced human sacrifice, drinking of blood, and spurning the Sabbath, to name a few scandals Christians introduced as "truth."
@@paigerasmussen5212 - Just claiming to be something without showing the receipts is called being a phony. How many people who claim to be Christians don't even have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Yu can be a good Baptist and not be a Christian. You can be a good Catholic and not be a Christian. Words have meaning. Bible words are defined by the bible. "Christian" is such a word.
Not sure what you meant by "John, Paul, and Peter plus other early writings make arguments that Jesus wasn't flesh."
John is the one who gave us these very words, "The word was made flesh and dwelt among us." So, I think your argument just went off the rails.
Gnosticism is NOT Christianity. It's incompatible with the word of God both Old Testament and New. The theology of the demiurge is unknown to scripture. That stuff came from outside the scriptures.
Oh yea?
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Gnostic Christianity is still based off of Christ teachings