Drove series 1 and 2 Leyland nationals when I started my bus driving career with London country buses in 1979. Nice bus to drive and another interesting fact, it was one of the first buses designed with ergonomics in mind. Everything was to hand with ease of operation. Very different to everything else we were given to drive!😊
I loved the Leyland National as a kid. Manchester didn't have loads of them so a ride on one was always a treat. And at the time, they sounded like no other bus. Noticeably quicker too.
I used to drive the Leyland National and the Leyland National 2 when I worked on the buses in the late 1980's. They were great, I preferred the first National. Although touble with some reliability issues, they were awesome. The automatic version with the "washing machine" style dial was quite lurchy so the semi auto short stick shift was the best.
Notice on the bus version they managed to make the seats line up with the window pillars so people get to see out of the windows, unlike on the 143 where some poor sole gets to view plastic and rivets all the way. Believe the Pacers also has problems with the overhead luggage racking which by some fluke did align perfectly with the open hopper type windows through which meny a brief case has fallen as the unit nodded along . A pacer ride from Sheffield to Huddersfield could be described as the best white knuckle ride outside of Alton Towers theme park.
The real reason the pacer and also the class 153 units came about was cost cutting within the rail industry. The old 1st generation DMU 's where all due for replacement because of their age,using the body panels and seating of the Leyland bus with all its accompanying trimming was seen as a cheeper way to go than having proper rail vehicle bodies built as a monocoque unit. Sadly the amalgamation of the cheeper bus body on top of what had been conceived as " the high speed freight vehicle "did not workout in rail terms. The passengers of the time had seen the future of rail travel as an air conditioned mk 3 coach as used with the HST set,the pacer and the 153s came as a big shock and where so hated for their shortcomings in comfort and style . 142,143,144 and 153s may well have been suited for winter off peak single line branches in some parts of the country but not for fast quick stopping commuter work they where put on. The whole second generation DMU plan did not come up with something fit for purpose until the class 158 came on the scene , far to late to stem the loss of passengers to road, even the 158s got pushed onto workings that where far from ideal , anything more than journey of 2 hrs. even in this type of vehicle should be banned on health grounds due to all the noise and vibration passengers get subjected to . People wish to travel in quiet, comfortable seating with room to work if required ,and not arrive boiled or frozen when the air conditioning or heating has failed on the vehicle for which they have paid far to much to travel in.
Those twin-oeaf folding doors were also used on the Classes 141 and 142. But were replaced on the Class 142 with more reliable single-leaf doors as used on the Class 143 from the start.
It wasn't until I moved to Wakefield in the mid 90s from South Yorkshire that I started using the trains between Wakefield and Sheffield, I've always been a bit of a bus nut, first thing I thought when I got on the class 141's (the first generation pacers) was it looks like a national, those pacers even had the same style of doors as the national.
Thank you for the bonus video giving background to the pacer video. You appear to say we'll hear more about the cab, at 2 and a half minutes in, but then we never get any more about it.
As someone not from the UK, I really enjoy these videos. I was hoping that you would have more side by side comparisons of the two to make it really obvious how they are similar. There are a couple of sections where I could jump back and forward and the similarities were really obvious. At time: 2:03 you are showing the interior of the bus and at 2:08 you are showing the interior of the class 142. I'd have loved to have shots of both interiors on screen at the same time. The video is good, I think when I started watching the video in my mind I was looking forward to more deliberate comparisons.
This brings back memories from my childhood. The Nationals used to stop outside my house and I always thought the pod on the top was an air intake for the engine, I never realised it was for the heating.
And the heater bulkhead is at the back as I assume the bus is rear-engined = 2 coolant pipes (feed/return) from the engine compartment to the bulkhead, when the driver presses heat switch/a thermostat closes, a valve is opened to send coolant to the matrix in the bulkhead and a fan turns on - heating the rear of the bus, there was also a pair of coolant lines running all the way to the front allowing the driver to get heat from the dashboard fan. In case of the pacer train, the engine is in the middle of the carriage - the “heater” bulkhead is above it
i remember my many trips on Leyland buses to and from school and trips to Darlington and Richmond with United and Eden buses. i also remember Stephen Foster too being the driver many times, everyone loved getting on the bus he was driving.
I never understood why people were so anti the Pacer family I remember the 142’s & 144’s on the Hull to Scarborough branch when they first arrived people were genuinely happy to see them after the old diesel smelling 50’s opinions went they were light airy brightly coloured and new and probably saved our railway through Beverley ❤and I notice the preservation movement have a few already!
Brilliant video. Just a shame that none of the Artic national bodied ones (Called Leyland DABs) survive, as i feel this could of been an even more perfect example to compare to the Pacer.
Now the Pacers have departed to preservation sites I'm waiting for an April fools post saying one of them is being converted to a "Road-Railbus" I swear if this comes up next year I'm calling it! LoL! I am loving these curator with a camera videos please keep them coming as being disabled I can't get to the nrm despite living in Leeds
The 141's were more like the Leyland National Mk2 in the video. The light clusters, windows, doors, seats, lights and even the drivers desk in the 141 was that from a Leyland National Mk2
I think the reason the Leyland National came about was B L. wanted to try their hand at monocoque construction for bus and coach bodies, traditionally these type of vehicles had been built of a, the chassis and b, the bodywork on top which was more or less hand built for each individual vehicle. Leyland's idea was to offer a standardized pre made body which could handle the loads whilst eliminating the heavy chassis componants thus giving a lighter cheeper vehicle with lower costs. The slight downer was,if the stressed body work became damaged it often required a return to the construction jig to regain the correct alignments and stressing loads, this soon put a lot of small operators off. Very similar to modern day car bodywork,a small ding in the wrong places and it becomes far to expencive to repair.
Miss travelling on there buses. There used to be a local bus company that ran nothing but a fleet of them right up till they had to be withdrawn due to access issues
Hearing mention of the LEV-1 prototype tickled a synapse and I went a-googlin'. Sure enough the LEV-1 demonstrated itself to a couple of US commuter services. I had seen a pic or two in a book I have about Boston's MBTA commuter train service but googling around, apparently it also demoed on Philadelphia's SEPTA commuter train service. This was around 1980. There may well have been other services, but those are the only two I found. Unsuccessful as a replacement for what were then 20-30 year old Budd-built Rail Diesel Cars which is I'm sure what the different states were looking for (MBTA ended up removing the power units from a group of RDCs and turning them into straight coaches pulled by locomotives, coaches that I rode regularly c.1987). The RDCs could run in mixed traffic but under FRA regulations, the LEV-1 would have needed to run under a waiver or on lines segregated from other traffic. Another great video! Thanks!
We had both Mk1 and Mk2 Nationals when my dad used to be Bus Driver. The Mk1 had a smoother face and hump on the back and then Mk2 had the grille like this one and no hump..this with hump and grille is quite unusual to see.
Quick question I imahinr the reason for the bus seats being raised at the back is because of the engine, however this doesn't happen on a pacer, is the pacer engine in the railway chassis, or is it half in the bus half in the chassis, or is it a different engine entirely?
In the pacer video they answered that question. The trainbody was constructed the same way with most of the same parts as the bus body but they are not the same and can not be swapped. They made changes f.e. the trainbody didn't need wheel arches and the step for the engine and drivetrain in the rear of the bus was also not needed. The pacer "bus" body was placed on a chassis and it was also constructed wider.
The very elevated floor was the real killer of the Pacer Railbus since it hardly meet reduced mobility standards. Or else we could at least still travel the class 143 and 144 so far more like a propper train interior wise.
There's a huge difference. A National bus weighs about 9 tonnes empty, but a Pacer carriage weighs 25 tonnes empty . The underframe of a Pacer is no toy thing either, it's solid, just like the bar coupling to the other carriage in the unit, is. Pacers have covered a damned site more mileage than the National, too, over 34 to 35 years of service!
They look similar and are from the same family as stated in the video. Naturally the train will be very different in its underframe construction. The National 2 in this video has covered 4 million documented miles in 26 years on everyday service running from 4 in the morning until 12 midnight most days. But I know that it will be more. I would think that a 142 would have done a bit more mileage. So they can be compared together. FTN 710W was built in 1981 so has a 4 year head start on 142001. However the body was constructed exactly the same as the bus using Avdelock construction rivets. What we did not have time to cover in the video was other items that are in the 142 and the National 2. The interior panels, light fittings, cab window are identical. There were many more things that were the same before the 142's were overhauled. The TL11 245 engine that gave way to the Cummins L10 and NH engines were fitted to the National 2. The first generation entrance doors were the same.
I get dismayed when people malign the bus because of the train. It's a bus first and foremost adapted into a train as an afterthought yet people think in the wrong direction. The National 2 is a good looking facelift of the National. I still view London's now long gone Red Arrow units as iconic.
The concept was good on paper but with all of the modifications needed for the Pacers they should have just ordered more Sprinters. However, if they had maqde them ore like the later Class 155s they might have been more liked and needed less modifications over the years.
they missed a trick , by not doing the Leyland Bus passenger Jet, , keep the seating, whack some jets and wings on it ,ideal for trips down to Spain. However they might need to keep the windows closed
Drove series 1 and 2 Leyland nationals when I started my bus driving career with London country buses in 1979. Nice bus to drive and another interesting fact, it was one of the first buses designed with ergonomics in mind. Everything was to hand with ease of operation. Very different to everything else we were given to drive!😊
I loved the Leyland National as a kid. Manchester didn't have loads of them so a ride on one was always a treat. And at the time, they sounded like no other bus. Noticeably quicker too.
Been in the bus industry as an engineer for 37 years national mk1 and 2 are my all time favourites much better than the ADL vehicles today.
I used to drive the Leyland National and the Leyland National 2 when I worked on the buses in the late 1980's. They were great, I preferred the first National. Although touble with some reliability issues, they were awesome. The automatic version with the "washing machine" style dial was quite lurchy so the semi auto short stick shift was the best.
Fantastic classic bus
Notice on the bus version they managed to make the seats line up with the window pillars so people get to see out of the windows, unlike on the 143 where some poor sole gets to view plastic and rivets all the way.
Believe the Pacers also has problems with the overhead luggage racking which by some fluke did align perfectly with the open hopper type windows through which meny a brief case has fallen as the unit nodded along .
A pacer ride from Sheffield to Huddersfield could be described as the best white knuckle ride outside of Alton Towers theme park.
The real reason the pacer and also the class 153 units came about was cost cutting within the rail industry.
The old 1st generation DMU 's where all due for replacement because of their age,using the body panels and seating of the Leyland bus with all its accompanying trimming was seen as a cheeper way to go than having proper rail vehicle bodies built as a monocoque unit.
Sadly the amalgamation of the cheeper bus body on top of what had been conceived as " the high speed freight vehicle "did not workout in rail terms.
The passengers of the time had seen the future of rail travel as an air conditioned mk 3 coach as used with the HST set,the pacer and the 153s came as a big shock and where so hated for their shortcomings in comfort and style .
142,143,144 and 153s may well have been suited for winter off peak single line branches in some parts of the country but not for fast quick stopping commuter work they where put on.
The whole second generation DMU plan did not come up with something fit for purpose until the class 158 came on the scene , far to late to stem the loss of passengers to road, even the 158s got pushed onto workings that where far from ideal , anything more than journey of 2 hrs. even in this type of vehicle should be banned on health grounds due to all the noise and vibration passengers get subjected to .
People wish to travel in quiet, comfortable seating with room to work if required ,and not arrive boiled or frozen when the air conditioning or heating has failed on the vehicle for which they have paid far to much to travel in.
Great little video thanks for showing the bus and the train.
Those twin-oeaf folding doors were also used on the Classes 141 and 142. But were replaced on the Class 142 with more reliable single-leaf doors as used on the Class 143 from the start.
It wasn't until I moved to Wakefield in the mid 90s from South Yorkshire that I started using the trains between Wakefield and Sheffield, I've always been a bit of a bus nut, first thing I thought when I got on the class 141's (the first generation pacers) was it looks like a national, those pacers even had the same style of doors as the national.
That bus is a thing if beauty!
I hope the old Leyland National enjoy it's day out
It did thanks.
Thank you for the bonus video giving background to the pacer video. You appear to say we'll hear more about the cab, at 2 and a half minutes in, but then we never get any more about it.
You've just got to love a National, looks good and drives like a dream, prettier than a142!!!
The National is a good looking bus still.
As someone not from the UK, I really enjoy these videos. I was hoping that you would have more side by side comparisons of the two to make it really obvious how they are similar. There are a couple of sections where I could jump back and forward and the similarities were really obvious.
At time: 2:03 you are showing the interior of the bus and at 2:08 you are showing the interior of the class 142.
I'd have loved to have shots of both interiors on screen at the same time.
The video is good, I think when I started watching the video in my mind I was looking forward to more deliberate comparisons.
This brings back memories from my childhood. The Nationals used to stop outside my house and I always thought the pod on the top was an air intake for the engine, I never realised it was for the heating.
Me too. It made the bus seem radically modern.
And the heater bulkhead is at the back as I assume the bus is rear-engined = 2 coolant pipes (feed/return) from the engine compartment to the bulkhead, when the driver presses heat switch/a thermostat closes, a valve is opened to send coolant to the matrix in the bulkhead and a fan turns on - heating the rear of the bus, there was also a pair of coolant lines running all the way to the front allowing the driver to get heat from the dashboard fan. In case of the pacer train, the engine is in the middle of the carriage - the “heater” bulkhead is above it
i remember my many trips on Leyland buses to and from school and trips to Darlington and Richmond with United and Eden buses. i also remember Stephen Foster too being the driver many times, everyone loved getting on the bus he was driving.
The Pacer trains originally had the same doors, as the bus. Four smaller doors, opening in exactly the same way on both the trains and the buses.
The cab windows had been changed for the class 141 which shared the same body width as the Leyland National.
This is a great deep dive into two huge parts of the transport world at their time.
It’s was made to fill a short term solution. It ended being in service for over 30 years.
We had 7 Leyland nationals in Brisbane Australia which was cool to have in but they were only in service for 10yrs
They must have stood out compared to the fugly B59s, Panthers and SL200s.
Never knew that a bus became a train. Very interesting.
I never understood why people were so anti the Pacer family I remember the 142’s & 144’s on the Hull to Scarborough branch when they first arrived people were genuinely happy to see them after the old diesel smelling 50’s opinions went they were light airy brightly coloured and new and probably saved our railway through Beverley ❤and I notice the preservation movement have a few already!
Great little video - just one thing - the B&W of the prototype railbus is of the LEV3 and not the LEV1 as described...
LEV1 was styled on the Mk1 National.
Brilliant video. Just a shame that none of the Artic national bodied ones (Called Leyland DABs) survive, as i feel this could of been an even more perfect example to compare to the Pacer.
Now the Pacers have departed to preservation sites I'm waiting for an April fools post saying one of them is being converted to a "Road-Railbus" I swear if this comes up next year I'm calling it! LoL! I am loving these curator with a camera videos please keep them coming as being disabled I can't get to the nrm despite living in Leeds
The 141's were more like the Leyland National Mk2 in the video. The light clusters, windows, doors, seats, lights and even the drivers desk in the 141 was that from a Leyland National Mk2
I think the reason the Leyland National came about was B L. wanted to try their hand at monocoque construction for bus and coach bodies, traditionally these type of vehicles had been built of a, the chassis and b, the bodywork on top which was more or less hand built for each individual vehicle.
Leyland's idea was to offer a standardized pre made body which could handle the loads whilst eliminating the heavy chassis componants thus giving a lighter cheeper vehicle with lower costs.
The slight downer was,if the stressed body work became damaged it often required a return to the construction jig to regain the correct alignments and stressing loads, this soon put a lot of small operators off. Very similar to modern day car bodywork,a small ding in the wrong places and it becomes far to expencive to repair.
Miss travelling on there buses. There used to be a local bus company that ran nothing but a fleet of them right up till they had to be withdrawn due to access issues
The Rail Replacement Bus episode. Just like in real life: not too often please.
Hearing mention of the LEV-1 prototype tickled a synapse and I went a-googlin'. Sure enough the LEV-1 demonstrated itself to a couple of US commuter services. I had seen a pic or two in a book I have about Boston's MBTA commuter train service but googling around, apparently it also demoed on Philadelphia's SEPTA commuter train service. This was around 1980. There may well have been other services, but those are the only two I found. Unsuccessful as a replacement for what were then 20-30 year old Budd-built Rail Diesel Cars which is I'm sure what the different states were looking for (MBTA ended up removing the power units from a group of RDCs and turning them into straight coaches pulled by locomotives, coaches that I rode regularly c.1987). The RDCs could run in mixed traffic but under FRA regulations, the LEV-1 would have needed to run under a waiver or on lines segregated from other traffic.
Another great video! Thanks!
Living in the North East at the peak time of the National bus, I can pretty much guarantee that I've travelled on that very bus 🙂
Think you will find most 1st generation DMUs where built on versions of coach underframes, one exception might be the Derby lightweights but not sure.
Great video l would like to see more
We had both Mk1 and Mk2 Nationals when my dad used to be Bus Driver. The Mk1 had a smoother face and hump on the back and then Mk2 had the grille like this one and no hump..this with hump and grille is quite unusual to see.
The engines and doors were the same until they were changed in the 90s.
I've travelled on 150 001 recently between Penistone and Sheffield. Are there plans to preserve the first Sprinter when they're eventually retired?
Hopefully both 150001 and 150002 are preserved, as they were the prototypes built in 1984.
Quick question I imahinr the reason for the bus seats being raised at the back is because of the engine, however this doesn't happen on a pacer, is the pacer engine in the railway chassis, or is it half in the bus half in the chassis, or is it a different engine entirely?
In the pacer video they answered that question.
The trainbody was constructed the same way with most of the same parts as the bus body but they are not the same and can not be swapped.
They made changes f.e. the trainbody didn't need wheel arches and the step for the engine and drivetrain in the rear of the bus was also not needed.
The pacer "bus" body was placed on a chassis and it was also constructed wider.
That was a great end to the story
The 1st Generation DMUs were also of integral construction unlike the Pacers.
The very elevated floor was the real killer of the Pacer Railbus since it hardly meet reduced mobility standards. Or else we could at least still travel the class 143 and 144 so far more like a propper train interior wise.
There's a huge difference. A National bus weighs about 9 tonnes empty, but a Pacer carriage weighs 25 tonnes empty . The underframe of a Pacer is no toy thing either, it's solid, just like the bar coupling to the other carriage in the unit, is. Pacers have covered a damned site more mileage than the National, too, over 34 to 35 years of service!
They look similar and are from the same family as stated in the video. Naturally the train will be very different in its underframe construction. The National 2 in this video has covered 4 million documented miles in 26 years on everyday service running from 4 in the morning until 12 midnight most days. But I know that it will be more. I would think that a 142 would have done a bit more mileage. So they can be compared together. FTN 710W was built in 1981 so has a 4 year head start on 142001. However the body was constructed exactly the same as the bus using Avdelock construction rivets. What we did not have time to cover in the video was other items that are in the 142 and the National 2. The interior panels, light fittings, cab window are identical. There were many more things that were the same before the 142's were overhauled. The TL11 245 engine that gave way to the Cummins L10 and NH engines were fitted to the National 2. The first generation entrance doors were the same.
I get dismayed when people malign the bus because of the train. It's a bus first and foremost adapted into a train as an afterthought yet people think in the wrong direction.
The National 2 is a good looking facelift of the National. I still view London's now long gone Red Arrow units as iconic.
THose seats on the National 2 - look like the SYPTE material
It will be amazing when someone comes up with the BR737 a boing plane 737 on a train
The concept was good on paper but with all of the modifications needed for the Pacers they should have just ordered more Sprinters. However, if they had maqde them ore like the later Class 155s they might have been more liked and needed less modifications over the years.
you should have had the class 141 with its narrow body & 2+2 seats ...
The bus was far better than the train.
Remember the National 1 in Bristol without fondness - had very jerky gear change, was very clattery and not as good as the Bristol buses they replaced
i love this channel
I thought the buses had the exact same bottom hinged window vents as the pacers - but maybe I'm misremembering
they missed a trick , by not doing the Leyland Bus passenger Jet, , keep the seating, whack some jets and wings on it ,ideal for trips down to Spain.
However they might need to keep the windows closed
I still think the class 101 looks better.
This was the heap of crap I paid folding money to travel in. Outrageous
The bus got the gender reassignment surgery to become a train 😅
Is it a Scottish accent or something else?
North East