Amazon missed the mark by 10,000 miles. Middle Earth is not something you hand over to inexperienced persons. Hope its canceled before season 2 is released.
I love it. Several characters I can relate to, others that I admire. It's so beautiful, wholesome, and I love the pacing. I'm sick of shows & films that rush everything & dwell on appalling behaviour.
I have a really hard time finding anything good to say about it. It's like they literally failed almost everything they could, I still don't understand how you can do that amount of mistake in a show with such a budget. Thinking how much good things could have been produced with this money makes me kinda sick tho
There's also a SIGNIFICANT difference between a long-form essay and a script. Someone can write a 50 page paper that is riveting and conveys its point eloquently and concisely but be unable to write dialogue without it feeling stilted and unnatural. The opposite is also true.
Oh come on. Yes, I agree with his suggestions, but the task of creating the whole show is vastly more difficult than rewriting a scene AFTER watching it. Just because you don't like the show doesn't mean the writers are bad. For this show in particular, the bar of expectations is incredibly, perhaps impossibly high.
@@LaneCarter Which is exactly why nobody in thier right mind would have let a pair of twats with no actual writing or production credits to their name write and prodice the most expensive TV show ever. And yes, I'm aware they were uncredited writers on the film that killed the 'new' Trek movie reboot.
Definetly a lesson as to why you need tallented people in your writers room with you no matter who you are.... Thank god for Philippa and Fran.. the amount of times you hear them say in the audio commentary "oh remember when we had to talk peter out of this crazy action scene here.." they obviously werent in the hobbits writers room as often haha
@@Ma55ey The Hobbit mess wasn't all Peter Jackson's fault though. He wasn't suppose to direct the movies, and then when they gave him the movie they gave him no time to prepare (I guess he only had 2 months or something). That's why they used so much visual effects, and he said he had to make shit up as they were filming. The Hobbit could be great if they gave him the same amount of time to prepare.
Not only the time and effort that was spent on writing the script by the trio you named made the movies a huge success. They had one agenda: "this is Tolkiens story, not ours. So there is no space to put our luggage into the movie".
It's not just the writings fault. This could've been a mix of Cinematography, Directing and Editing. If the Cinematographer and Director need to make sure they have enough coverage, and the Producer needs to oversee if they have the time and money to get all the coverage needed. If they don't have the coverage, the editor has very little to work with. There are many stages in the film production process where these holes in the narrative can occur. Writing room, Visual Coverage through shotlist/storyboards, schedueling/Money or editing. At every single point in a production it's very easy to loose sight of the storytelling and only be focused on keeping the production going
@@haalandfilms1695 you nailed it ! I would just add that to ensure all of these dimensions end up in a successful outcome, you need a strong leadership, with someone, director or producer, able to detect wrong trends and redirect the teams for a better results. When that « conductor » is missing, you can get a wrong a product even though the individual contributors have the right skills and resources
The show felt like sitting down in your favorite restaurant- the music, the ambience all there. But then you just sit and wait for someone to bring you the menu for the rest of the night. There’s “stuff happening” but we’re just observing, not experiencing
and when your food does arrive, and you say that's not what i ordered, all the staff run at you and scream racist at you, and call you a Nazi!!! and tell you to leave and that this restaurant wasn't made for you in the first place....
@@Ma55ey to be fair, a lot of people complaining were legitimately racist as shit. Whilst forced diversity is a problem, as shown with HOTD it can be very easily overlooked if the quality of writing is there, but people were so obsessed with race they convinced themselves THAT it was the fatal flaw.
Really great work here! You so wonderfully put into words what I could not. This scene, like a number of aspects of the show, seem to be "out of tune" as you say and fall flat where they should have soared. Hopefully they make the necessary adjustments for season 2 and give fans the show they deserve.
What I never understood is how did the Numenor army know there was a sense of urgency to get to that specific village? I didn't get why they had to gallop from the river to there. afik , they had no idea what was going on, no scouts or intel and anyone else would have just walked their way there. Did the discuss it when they looked at the map on the ship? And how did they fit that many horses in 3 smallish ships? Are they build like icebergs?
Plot required it to happen. I don't see any other answer. In the Two Towers movie Gandalf states at the beginning that he'll return at sunrise, the risk being if he fails on his task, but we as the audience and the characters all have the information. Earlier in that movie when Rohan villages are starting to come under attack the woman sends her kids on the horse so we see how the information of the attack and how close the threat is gets broadcast. It ties the story together and makes sense, it also helps set up future pay offs. It felt like ROP did such a poor job of this throughout the show, things just happened when they happened.
Also, why is Galadriel out in front leading the army instead of Elendil, Halbrand (assumed King of the Area), Numenors general (s)? She is a tag along on a revenge trip at best.
It's insane to me that the battle in the village takes place at night and you see the Numenorians running up in daylight....when they are supposedly happening at the same time, in the same continent, even the same region..... seems like they had an idea of how to do the whole thing and then went crazy with the editing.
Reminds me of Plan 9 from Outer Space, honestly. Also, isn't the attacking army supposed to be riding east? Then how come the sun rises behind them? When someone's spent this much money on a show, I don't expect to see elementary goofs like this.
I assumed it wasn’t supposed to be happening at the same time to give a better rhythm to the episode. It’s quite common to edit discontinued scenes in parallel to contextualise the causality of one scene on the other. But then again, I was expecting the Numenorians to be days late and find the villagers massacred.
every week i found myself saying. "i cant believe nothing happened, yet again". This show has soo many problems. Worst part is the finale tries to pretend like it told a compelling story.
@@storyseek1985 There were people that did but they were put into negative roles ... Durin III, is perfectly rational and consistent in his portrayal .. Ar-Pharazon has perfectly good reasons for what he does and even explains them ... Everyone else a complete mess... especially if Guyladriel was involved ... things just fell apart around her ...
It's really refreshing to hear someone speaking critically about the show without whining, shouting, or being sarcastic, and giving genuine examples of how it might have been done better. Great video.
The most glaring issue of this show was the portrayal of Sauron's agency. He, through no will of his own, in fact through the designs of Galadriel herself, becomes the evil Middle Earth had never seen before. He does not choose to go to Numenor. He does not decide to go back to Middle Earth. He does not decide to become King of the Southlands. He does not plan to meet the elves. He does not plan or plot to create the rings, or deceive the elves or anyone. The greatest baddie of Tolkein's lore, the greatest evil that Middle Earth has ever faced, does not want any of it. He simply is manipulated, coerced, and forced along to do this, by the apparent protagonist of the story.
It also sounds like he wants to do good by the world instead of simply succeed where Morgoth failed, and his characterization will be a mixture of a Breaking Bad character and a Sopranos character in Season 2.
Well, I really don't like the show for a couple of reasons but if you know Tolkiens World, how Sauron tried to get power in the Second Age and that almost everything he said and says is manipulating and following a greater plan, then Sauron is one of the better parts of the show
Something like that, yes. It's not that he didn't do any of this things, but he is "evil going along". Situations arise and he follows. He is not an active character, he is re-active, if not passive.
Agreed--this is an excellent example of a *good faith* criticism that's specific and constructive. Contrast the myriad bad faith ones out there, built on vague assertions and imagined ideas of the showrunners' intent.
@@ThePhantomSquee Have you paid attention to what the showrunners and staff members have said? They're exactly the kind of people who would call Tolkien a fascist if he were still alive despite the fact that he was as anti-state as a man could get. Did you forget who they hired for the "Superfans" video in order to represent the fandom? Did you forget that they ghosted Peter Jackson? Did you forget that they replaced an actual Tolkien scholar with a yes man? I also wouldn't treat the allegations of poor treatment towards the premiere attendees so lightly.
@@arandompanda1349 In my opinion, its the effect of reapeting the same words until they lose their intended meaning. And that everyone just change that meaning over, and over again. So is better for everyone ( to grow as a creator) to avoid them, so its better understood your opinion. Idk if i made sence or i expained myself like shit.
@@SirBlackReeds I dont see in bad faith to call out corporation like bullcrap. Its the loud ones who think "woman bad..." instead of some structure problem in the writing.
I'm an editor and you've hit the nail on the head. In ways I couldn't even notice at first. Emotional pacing should have been analyzed in the edit. The editing was too cold and technical so it did not help our engagement with our feelings. The art of telling stories is becoming lost in the edit of even billion dollar shows.
@@SirBlackReeds Yes unfortunately the fans of Tolkien don't decide how Amazon spends its budget. They are immune to criticism because they are backed by corporations that can not fail unless you believe that Amazon has any competition or ever will.
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. I would also like to point out that the show has a pacing issue on the broader level. There was so much slogging throughout the season. But once we got to the most interesting part imo (Saurons déception of the Elves and the forging of the rings) it was rushed through in one episode. Felt almost like an afterthought and badly paced as well.
Yes, the show is called The Rings of Power, after all. So you would have thought that the story would centre around the creation of those rings, the characters involved in that, and the ambitions and goals behind wanting to create the rings in the first place. And it could be a long, fascinating, beautifully told story if done right. But so far... Nope.
Agreed. Completely baffling to me the show spent so much time on a storyline like the Harfoots, and literally less than a single episode on Sauron’s deception and the forging of the rings, things that took literally hundreds of years in the book.
I have 16 years of daily editing experience. What you are describing is a fix to a very basic pace mistake. I bet there was a producer in an editing room who "knew himself how to do this easy work".
@@storyseek1985 I figure they were more afraid of Bezos than they were about contaminating the lore. It's always a bad idea to do a story solely for financial purposes - not because you have a story to tell. I'd have prefered to see all that money sunk into a new franchise by the great writers of our time than to see it dumped on the LotR franchise without actually knowing where they were going with it. Should have gone for three more seasons The Expanse instead. That way they could have had their epic franchise without disappointing so many people.
This is easily one pf my absolute favourite critiques of the show, critical but not unfair while being constructive and accurate. It's sometimes said that films/Tv shows are written 3 times. During the script, filming and editing. This really highlights that last one. One should consider this during writing and filming. You're a great editor by the way. It can be very hard to re-edit a scene to work better with no extra footage (I've tried). Really awesome job!
I agree with your assessment but my review was a bit more harsh. To me, having so many false notes and things that didn't make sense in the unfolding of the narrative is a red handed sign of neglect in production. It's beyond disappointing to me. Because it doesn't have to be that way. Thank you for this balanced video and I hope the producers here you.
I'd be VERY surprised if this show wasn't shot in the new 'scrapbooking' method - where they shoot a wide number of 'options' rather than a pre-planned sequence of story beats. It just feels so incredibly disjointed and illogical. Disney does it a lot. In RoP, some things are given MASSIVE weight one moment, then nearly ignored the next. Characters just magically know things, have things (like armor), and ebb and flow in their resolve, motivation, and intentions... it just flip flops all over the place.
@@storyseek1985 They have no reason to shoot it like that. It's not like an Avengers movie that's already well established and people are constantly making observations about the characters and the story in comparison to the last one. Also that's something you would only do in a movie because it's a complete story from start to finish. A TV show is often written as they go so especially when it comes to a Bad Robot crew they have no idea where the story will go until they get to it. And when you have bad writers like the Bad Robot crew it often means they write themselves illogical out of holes or break continuity because they don't remember what they wrote before. It's just simply bad writing and there's some people out there making excuses for it.
Yeah well I'd be more surprised if I hadn't seen the same disrespect for properties like Star Trek, Doctor Who, Ghostbusters etc. And it always comes from hiring activists who think they're better writers than the source material. Most of the time they turn out to be absolute hacks with little skill or experience and I'm both tired and frustrated that this bullshit has continued to infest and twist society to bad practices and behavours.
@@storyseek1985 That sounds like a likely method/ culprate as to what's happening. I'm curious as to what is being taught now in university for Video Produciton.
@@Moist_yet_Crispy At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, scrapbooking is an amazingly effective method for production contributors to leech large sums of money from studios with relatively no additional benefit to the viewers.
I am continually impressed by your insights, delivery, editing, and general high quality videos, some of which I have recommended to my students to watch. Maybe I just share your perspective, but honestly at times you express ideas that I have never considered but which resonate clearly. Thank you!
I'm pretty certain the arrangement of the charging scene as you describe it is the one that was originally intended. That's the only thing that would explain the glaring continuity error where we go from pitch black nighttime to brightly lit sunrise, to night and then back to day. There's not even any dawn in between. Why they felt the need to edit it out of sequence is anyone's guess and as you pointed out, we can doubt it was the right decision but at least I'm absolutely certain it was an afterthought.
I wondered if they realized it would seem weird to suddenly see the soldiers charging without having seen them rushing through middle earth, so they changed the sequence, hoping to give us a sense of the distance and time spent travelling. Very poor editing choice !
I was thinking the exact same thing - this will be taught as an example of what not to do and what could have/should have been done. After rewatching this video, this seems blatantly obvious now and really makes me question who Amazon has hired to be failing this badly - this 20 minute video, the content suggestions and adjustments, would have made a staggering difference in the quality of production. We now know WHY the 2 main "showrunners" have never been used before - they simply aren't good at it.
I think it was a bad choice to go for the mystery box. From the first glimpse of those character posters they wanted the audience to just be guessing who's who. It makes it difficult to connect with characters while you're busy filing away clues if they are the big baddie or not... That's why the dwarf plotline works: Elrond and Durin are relatable characters, they are neither boring nor one-dimensional, but i know my emotional investment in them won't be iverthrown by some "clever" reveal in the end.
That's what happens when you've taken the Abram's school of writing. There's the video online of him doing a public speech about coining his term mystery box and its his selling gimmick that people were fooled into believing. The mystery box is just a definition for setting up a mystery. Stories have done this for decades. JJ was just the first one to give it a more intriguing name. However a mystery box doesn't contribute inherent value from just establishing it. For example if I walked around town carrying a box in my hands saying, oh there's something fascinating about this box, just wait and see then finally I open the box and it's empty or there's just a glove in there. How would you feel about that box then?? Chances are you would care or be disappointed about the reveal. On top of that the mystery box may have no relevance to the story so you might feel that it was pointless in the first place. In this we can see the fallacy of relying on a mystery box alone. It needs to be payed off well and have an impact on the greater story. That's the reason why The Last Jedi didn't work for a lot of people. In Johnson's fallacy to simply subvert expectations without consideration to the context and purpose of story structure, his reveal fell short and people felt cheated or unsatisfied. On top of that his reveal really had no greater consequence to the character. Knowing this fact maybe disappointing and hard to accept but it also doesn't present a problem or challenge going forward. Rey is able to continue in the same way that she was before. On the other hand Luke learning Vader is his father means that he can nolonger face Vader the same way he did before. He's now got inner turmoil with how to handle the situation. Should he continue to try and stop Vader by killing him or try to turn him back to the light side?? I've already seen Studios hire inexperienced writers who kill a property so I'm not surprised it's becoming more mainstream like on this show and with Marvel.
aha! the cinematographer in me has this “um, something doesn’t feel visually right”, & you finally resolved what was irking me! the editing.. i ran into this “subconscious itch” that kept emerging in me during the viewing experience throughout the season.. the “larger scale” trouble in totality has now given me what my wandering finger has wanted to put it on.. a slight lack of investment from episode to episode yet in almost “ignorable” small amounts.. thank you for your commentary!
In Game Of Thrones, Battle of the Bastards. Imagine we see Jon’s army getting annihilated, then we cut to the Knights of the Vale riding in an open field. Then we cut back to John suffocating, only to cut back again to the Knights doing a valiant charge. Cut back to Jon almost dying. Then finally reveal that the knights of the vale arrived like it’s some huge surprise.
I like your breakdown and you attempt to improve episode six, but momentum via the pacing of the writing and editing is but one of the many flaws permeating this entire show. This show isn’t the worst thing ever created, of course not… but the drummed up controversy around it serving as an end-all be-all shield for the studio and show runners to hide behind when there’s a deluge of *GENUINE CRITICISM* hurled their way is bound to alienate those who may have approached it in good faith void of any politics or hyperbolic takes. There are a plethora of ‘nitpicking’ things that we could get into, the show suffering a death of a thousand paper cuts, but ultimately it all comes down to the writing. It’s simply not good, even separate from being an ‘adaptation’.
I think this show is the worst ever created. It was by far the most expensive ever created. So there may have been 'worse' shows those shows had much lower budgets and other constraints on them. This show had everything going for it and all they had to do was hire some competent people to execute it. Instead we got a distorted nightmare where Galadriel literally bi-ched Sauron into taking over the world, the harfoots are filthy hobbitsis and virtually nothing anyone did in the story mattered at all. Dollar for dollar this was by FAR the worst piece of media ever created.
@@moseszero3281 It really isn’t. It’s this kind of hyperbole that makes so many corners of online criticism hard to take seriously. You could do with following the example of the person who’s video you’re watching.
@@somanytakennames What did the show get right? A few pretty cinematic shots? They spent a BILLION dollars and the only thing they accomplished character wise was making the Galadriel more self absorbed than a black hole and COMPLETELY responsible for the rise of Sauron. When confronted, he even reminds her that he TOLD her he found the king thingy on a dead man. And the writers have her gaslight everyone by trying to blame HIM for the whole southlands thing. The dwarf forge storyline never went anywhere so the time they spent in it was pointless. They made the rings with the one piece of mithiril they had so the whole dwarves mining extra mithiril plot was pointless. The harfoots did nothing but show they are filthy hobbitsis who abandon their kin to die at the slightest inconvenience or odd occurance. Their whole existence in the story was pointless. The woman who stares at things (who i cant even be bothered to remember her name) was completely pointless. The fight in the village was pointless. The dialog is horrible and full on non-sequitors. You almost NEVER get a coherent answer to a question. It feels like they wrote six different scripts then randomly shuffled lines together. Their attempts to sound tolkienien are pseudo-intellectual word vomit that sounds like it was written by a drunk 3 y/o. All the protagonists are manipulative narcissists who are constantly validated by the show so much that they must be writer self inserts. The most honest and caring person in the show is Sauron. And all of that is before you get into the monumentally stupid stuff like the magic blood sword that was NEEDED to open a freaking sluice gate that the orcs could have easily broken. And the vampire orcs that burn in sunlight but ONLY when its plot convenient. And staying in the village instead of using the CASTLE.
@@moseszero3281 this show certainly wasn't worth the money. There are SOME redeeming aspects I can take away a least. Mainly from the only good storyline between Elrond/Durin. Let's remember Disney even bothered to spend any money on She-Hulk at all, which is far worse than this show in literally every aspect, and the billion dollar mega giant that is DISNEY produced some of the worst CGI within the last 5 years with their show.
The thing is, writing in the world of Tolkien is not something everyone can do. It is like listening to Mozart , then listening to your highschool band play Mozart. Those "bad faith" commentators as you say are right. Their passion makes them intense, but when you really listen to what bothers them it's the derailing of Tolkien's world, both in his writing ,and in its cinematic structure. Jackson's movies really held Tolkien as the model. I am not sure there are too many capable artists. Especially in this new era.
You are wrongly assuming that the showrunners intended to honor Tolkien's vision. Instead (and the showrunners openly admit to wanting this) they wanted to update Tolkien's world for the modern (the socially sensitive minority) audience. So no it is nothing like a school band playing Mozart. It is like a school band rewriting Mozart with hip hop beats to appeal to their friends and lovers of hip hop.
A great composer once said "you need someone better than me for that" When you truly love a work and genuinely want to honour it, you try your best while staying faithful, and if you feel you're not up to the task, you don't start it.
6:00 It's a better structure, but what got me was that the times don't line up. The villager's fight is in pitch darkness, but the sun is high enough in the sky during the Numenorean's that it's obscured by cloud and not shining directly on the orcs and making them sparkle.. or whatever. Hours must have passed between the breaking of the tavern door and the Numenorean's arrival, but there's no indication of that passage of time on screen.
It was clearly done for the cooler looking shot and as a call back to the Gandalf arrival during the Two Towers. The issues there was Gandalf was arriving from the east (Sun rise) and the Numenorean's were arriving from the west, so the sun shouldn't have even been there unless they were arriving at the end of the day. They did the same thing in the final episode too when the Numenorean's were sailing home, the sun was on the wrong side for the time of day.
@@roskelld Why not have many suns? So that the light can always be illuminating from behind whoever is in the shot? Since they did that a few times already.
4:00 I never got this far in the series. I gave up. But my buddy and I had this same response in episode 3(?) where galadriel is riding a horse for a loooong slow-mo for no reason. We looked at each other and said What!?
The part I dislike the most is how you start to get settled into a scene, and then they yank you away for a different plotline in a different place. The scene pacing isn't great Edit: If they made a show entirely about the Elrond/Durin relationship and stayed with them it would be a banger
Agreed. I feel like a lot of tv and movies do this in efforts to create cliffhangers, but it doesn’t work when we barely care about the characters, and to me, it feels cheap, like they’re perceivably trying to make more out of less. They didn’t do the heavy lifting required to make those scene cuts leave us wanting more.
Well the mithril plot line is now completely irrelevant, so all of the dwarf stuff was pointless. I assume Elrond will teleport over again and tell Durin: "Never mind. See you in another few hundred years." And Durin will ball his eyes out.
@@scambammer6102 The elves never used the dwarven forge so that was pointless. The harfoots did nothing so they were pointless. The brunette who stares did nothing so she was pointless. The whole creation of the rings explained nothing about how sauron made them evil so THAT was pointless. Also the one piece of mitiril treated the sickness and it stayed treated after the mitiril was removed so all they had to do was treat each elf or part of the tree once then keep going till the sickness was cured so the whole need for the rings was pointless. The only thing that was changed by things people did in the show was Galadriel motivated/bullied Sauron into being evil when he repeatedly said he didn't want to be that way. So the whole show did nothing except make Galadriel responsible for everything evil Sauron did afterwards.
I have little sympathy for their narrative missteps related to stuff they changed for no good reason. Filling in gaps is one thing, leaving out some things that don’t contribute to the story is another, but if you start struggling to maintain characters, events, themes, or worldbuilding that was written in direct conflict with the source material, it serves you right
The fight scenes also suffer from close-up-itis, which _always_ creates the nagging impression that the close, shaky camera and the fast editing are used to cover up crappy fight choreography. If you chop up your fight into 1-second segments, the footage cannot possibly be any good, can it?
Considering how much money has gone into this series im baffled by the quality.... The chainmail being very obviously printed onto fabric in some scenes was the last straw for me 😂
@@stepahead5944 every scene with Miriel once she has her armour on - a large gap around her upper arms, they don't even try to hide where the fabric creases its literally just a tshirt
I don’t watch The Rings Of Power. Peter Jackson’s original trilogy remains enough for me. The longevity of a franchise can often sadly have a draining effect on quality. Thank you, Tom, for sharing your wisdom on this subject.
I agree with all your notes about how the charge of the Numenoreans could have been cut better, as well as how the villagers should have been outside as they arrive. My thought on how that could have happened ties with an improvement I would have made to Adar's battle strategy. Specifically, once the villagers retreat inside the tavern, Adar has his orcs use the torches we saw them with before to set fire to it while he delivers a final ultimatum for them to surrender and give him what he wants, or die screaming in flames. We could see the villagers trying to hold out, choking on smoke and hearing the rafters start to buckle from the heat, before Theo looks at his wounded mother and chooses to give Adar the sword and try to bargain for their lives. At this point Adar, furious over how many of his orcs died in their tower stunt, walks away from the huddled villagers while announcing he will wipe the Southlands clean of the taint of Men. Before the orcs can start, we see the water rippling, then their gaze turns toward the horizon; we hear the war cries of the Numenoreans as they crest the hills around the village. Here, the orcs would start scrambling to form a line of spears/pitchforks to meet the charge while some of them climb onto nearby rooftops to start shooting the Numenoreans with arrows, while Adar, standing next to the body of a fallen villager wielding a hatchet, tells Waldreg he has a task for him.
I agree one thousand percent! I thought the same thing with the Numenorians coming to Middle earth. Why don't the show runners get experienced people like you to do their editing. Something has been missing the whole series and you put your finger on it! Thank you!
I really appreciate your breakdown. There were a lot of times that I felt something was off but couldn't identify why the scene didn't work. Your analysis put into words what I was feeling.
I enjoyed ROP very much, but it definitely had issues with pacing and progression. I had difficulty figuring out exactly why some moments felt flat, and you've explained it so well. I think the showrunners will learn what worked and what did not, and S2 will be better. I'll continue to watch for the beautiful cinematography, costumes, and acting! And of course, any excuse to visit Middle-Earth is always a treat! Please keep up the great work. Love your channel!
“… any excuse to visit Middle-Earth is always a treat.” You can always go back to the LOTR trilogy for Middle-Earth and for the better story and characters.
@@tototats16 the Trilogy will always hold a special place in my heart, but I'm also interested in new stories and artistic interpretations of the world.
I have a similar reaction to the series. I mostly put it down to "bad writing" or "writing by committee" - maybe related to the fact that multi-episode, multi-season TV adaptations just aren't as focussed on honing their screenplays to be as coherent and powerful as they have to be for, say, a full-length film or even a trilogy of such films to be memorable. Maybe it's more a matter of editing, as is suggested here. All I know is that when I compare S01 of RoP to "Dune" (Part I), I can't help but seeing how poor an adaptation RoP is for all the mega-millions they spent on each and every one of its 8 episodes...
I often felt like things "just happened for no reason" in the show, but I figured that there was some explanation in the show that I'd missed because I was distracted by the bad dialogue, acting, direction, and constant jumping between storylines. Thanks for pointing out that on top of all of the other major flaws, things really DID just actually happen for no reason in the show. Drinks all around!
I can’t get over how dumb it was to make their main character Galadriel. She could’ve been any random elf and it probably would’ve been fine. But they took one of the most well-loved Tolkien characters and twisted her into somebody else entirely. And not in a good way. Just plain stupid.
My biggest gripe is the gross mishandling of costume design and their associated budgets in some episodes. The show has over three times the budget of the original movies iirc, yet the best they equip the Numenorian fleet is with leather curiass' and green robes. They also amass a total of 300 men for a potential battle for the WORLD, but that's beyond this point.
Right! As soon as i noticed how some of their chainmail was obviously just printed onto fabric, showing the creases in the cloth and everything, i couldn't unsee it 🥲 not that im against shortcuts like that, if its well done - but with a buget that big c'mon
Super cathartic to finally find your breakdown of this series. When the show came out it felt like the discourse was super divisive and I feel like I never really heard a perspective like this that echoed how I experienced it: some decent things but also some "out of tune" notes that kept it from landing how it seemed to want to.
your edits are solid and also address some stuff that really bothered me but i hadn't put into words. this is actually a fun show so long as you're allowed to get blazed and make fun of the dumber stuff with your funnier friends.
Thanks for sharing! I did not catch this sequence narration glitch actually so it's very helpful to have a new perspective and solution. I too love to dissect story telling and find the glitches even in a powerful fantasy classic story like the Lord of the Rings. I love to stay down with a story until the very end, with its ups and downs, at its best and at its lowest.
The show fails in so many levels, writing, editing, character motivations and their overall growth episode to episode, the butchering of the story which is a cardinal sin in itself, but something that i truly cant comprehend is how they made middle earth from a wide open continent with lots of races , people, cities , to feel small. that is something unforgivable. Galadriel crossed the entire ocean swimming, the capital of Lindon shows nothing except the maybe 10-11 elves in total, the entire southlands that only had a village with three houses, the famed smiths of Eregion are not shown, and the city itself feels entirely empty, even in the beginning when the elves and the dwarves are building the tower, it actually has no one there. Moria felt great in the beginning than only small corridors with no one there mining only durin and elrond which is beyond ridiculous. Tolkien created a masterpiece of a universe, yet here middle earth seems small and uninteresting like just another fantasy land of some lesser known book
Picking on the 20 years Elrond was missing from Durin's life: Dwarves live around 250 years, 20 years would be a bit more of an eyeblink to them. If they wanted this to be meaningful it should have been 100 years. This is another little thing the show runners didn't seem to understand about the world they stepped foot in. If we really get to the line of Durin the Deathless even a hundred years wouldn't be important enough to make a difference as Elrond would come back to find a whole new Durin that would still be 'his friend' because each successful Durin is supposed to have his predecessors memories
I think your criticism sums up everything wrong with the criticism of the series. You are taking a minor piece of dialogue and blowing it up into this massive problem. It's not. It must be hard to live in a world where you are picking it apart constantly.
Great job providing meaningful, constructive criticism. Many a review has amounted to little more than whining regarding the aesthetics of the show, to such an extent that, if there was any valid feedback, it's buried beneath the nitpicking.
I have no plans to ever watch this show, but I've been such a fan of your channel for so long that I knew I would benefit from your analysis. If I am ever helming a cinematic project, I would hire you as a script and film editor in a heartbeat. Keep up the good work!
We aplaud thee for that is our position, come Join us for our counter ROP series. Mae G'ovannen! Now the evidence is clear, and none can deny that "ROP" is not of Tolkien. Take heart for our EXSURGE TOLKIEN that makes robustly clear the heresy of Tolkien's Canon displayed out of the showrunner's mouths and hearts. They probably know nothing of Tolkien's masterpiece, as evident from their interview in the Vanity Fair Article. For "they who proclaim to loveth Tolkien, yet understandeth, not his world view can neither hope to create a new film, show, or series of his secondary world." "Auta i lóme!" and" Aurë entuluva!"
Man even the little adjustments you've made on these scenes with the music and the momentum build up felt so much more Jackson and Tolkien, huge applause! Crazy how one man in his house can do better than multiple studios with billions...
MOMENTUM! Thank you for solving this for me as well. Like you I like the show, but also didn't like it and couldn't figure out why. I also thought it was just all the negative criticism around it was influencing me, but it was more of an emotional jarring. I like the series so far, I hope they fix this going forward.
Im forgiving of awkward moments or “false notes”. But I really don’t think their writing team has the emotional literacy to pull this off. No subtext. Everything is vocalized. Characters are categorically 1 dimensional. Motives are weak. This really had so much potential & there are screenwriters who could’ve sailed it. Yet another bloated budget wasted on C- artistry
Thank you!! finally, someone speaks about the really awkward momentum of the series, I understand is different from the excellent trilogy but at the same time...Breaking bad exists, and so does Mr. Robot, they have no excuse
Funny you should mention Breaking Bad. Given what they revealed about how Sauron will be characterized in Season 2, it sounds like the writers are deriving the show's material from what they watched in the past instead of rooting firmly on the actual source material.
so many things in this show was there ONLY to be a reference to the PJ trilogy. the show didn't even try to stand on its own feet. Just out of touch people trying to please the "IT" crowd while desperately clinging on to something truly great without the faintest idea of WHY
Thank you for your video. It's a nice change from the full on hate stuff, and also the desperately trying to like it stuff. I was watching Peter jackson's Two Towers again last night, and just amazed at how much was accomplished sometimes in a matter of minutes. I never had even a single emotional or cathartic moment in all the Rings of Power. Those moments just kept on coming in the PJ trilogy....the difference between that and RofP was just....unfunny. Thanks for your humility and your earnest analysis!
Thanks for the video. You made an awesome assessment on how the flow of battle should have been. 2 more things that bothered me, were the extreme long fight between the dark elf (sorry don't know his name) and the big orc. It took way to long and was illogical at the same time as the elf should have been unconscious in the way the fight went. Also the explosion of the volcano and the over obvious plot armour some characters wore in that scene. I really looked forward to this series though this episode is the last I've seen, period!
The problem was that they had five entire episodes of build-up of multiple story lines with no payoff and no momentum. Episode 6 was good in that it finally provided that, but only for one thread of the story. It had to neglect the dwarf and brandyfoot storylines just to satisfy this one thread for us. I think you are right. If this was all put together well like the original movies it would be a great watch.
I must point out a few key parts: 1. What is broadly being described in terms of the sequence shifting back and forth between hope and despair in a "jarring" way as is said here is also in a sense applicable to the Pelennor Fields battle in Return of the King. It bounces back and forth between hope and despair also as the tide of battle shifts between good and evil multiple times (from Rohan's arrival to the Haradrim's arrival to the dead army's arrival), especially comparable is how the scene cuts from Rohan running down the Orc horde to Denethor attempting to burn Faramir alive. It is a split second cut from one mood to the opposite and structurally the sequence behaves the same way, with Rohan on the cusp of victory until they spot the Mumakail stomping towards them in the distance and the jarring cease of the heroic music as the giant Mammoth creatures crush the Rohirrim under their feet. What Like Stories of Old is pointing out here is not a structure of emotion, but a connection between editing and narrative structure. What makes the intrusion of the Numenorian advance jarring is that it aims to create a mood that is not in aligment with the shifting of the battle itself. While the Rohirrim's arrival into the scene coincides with their arrival into the battle itself, the Numenor enter the scene before they arrive in the battle, and they do so in a way that does not immediately change the following narrative, as we just cut back to the Orcs carrying on exactly where the cut left them off. And as for the intrusion of Denethor, it's important to remember that while his scene interrupts the victorious exhilaration of the madness around him, his scene ends by flowing back into that victorious tone, as his defeat by Gandalf and Pippin flows into the concurrent victory over the Orcs by the Rohirrim. The scene is still focused. Another point you may examine is when the arrival of the Orcs' massive battering ram cuts the scene entirely, shifting back to Frodo, Sam and Gollum in an entirely different setting that isn't the same. Note however that the scene cuts as Gandalf sees the terrifying battering ram Grond approaching after the scene has reached a relief of equilibrium between the good and bad side and ominously implies a shift towards despair and the scene cuts back to a moment of ominous despair for Frodo, as Gollum is leading him alone into a scary tunnel we know to be a trap and the stakes of this story are just as high. The mood isn't changed by the cut, it carries it through. This isn't a definitive statement on whether one scene to scene block of narrative is superior to the other, it's about how the use of editing interrupts the flow and if you are invested in the narrative, it is an executional flaw and not a fundamental one. One that affects the punch and flow of moments (of course important) rather than determining how the audience is going to feel. They don't determine how invested an audience is in the narrative. 2. One thing I will point out in defence of the series is the point of comparison for the setup of the Numenorians' arrival and their scene's connection to the narrative. What I must point out is that in Return of the King, you have the sequences of Rohan on approach to Minas Tirith and in that, as far as they know, Minas Tirith has merely asked for help and it isn't until late that the scene merely interjects an off-screen scout report remarking the state of the battle as they make for the city again. For the arriving force, the stakes are not the same as within the battle itself, they also are not aware of the exact nature of what they are riding towards and when they are, it is because of an entirely impersonal piece of expository information from a scout (which I think is only in the extended edition anyway) and they otherwise ride with purpose and conviction, but not with desperate haste. This is arguably (though I do not care really) something that is better in Rings of Power, as the energy and dramatic tension between the two sides of this sequence match up more evenly, as the Numenorians are in full sprint towards the village at their darkest moment, even if their information is not the same, the drama is of the same scope. Whereas in Return of the King, the determined, hopeful Rohirrim on approach do not share the same dramatic scope as the desperate soldiers of Gondor awaiting their seemingly hopeless doom. But again, I don't see this as a problem. All of this is to say that moments do matter, but those moments aren't the narrative and narratives aren't simply comprised of moments. The Lord Of The Rings films are not masterpieces because editing provided certain scenes with more or less punch, that is only a part of the equation. What is fundamental is how much the audience cares about what is happening. What makes Sam carrying Frodo up Mount Doom moving is not the editing of the scene or the crescendo of the moment. I could show that scene to someone who isn't invested in this story and none of the execution would matter because they don't care about Frodo and Sam to begin with. Likewise you could edit the village battle scene to optimal perfection, yet to someone who isn't (or perhaps even refuses) to be invested in these characters, none of that work would mean the slightest little thing and wouldn't care about whether the editing was better or worse. This is very important to bring up in relation to Rings of Power in particular, as there is undeniably a broad refusal to engage with the material at all that is of far greater consequence than a scene's editing and I want to clarify this. This video is good, as it uses a series to examine ways in which you could enhance a scene through editing and to that end serves its purpose very well. What would not be good is if people who hate this series come here to validate their pre-established feelings, failing to understand that this is a reflection on a scene and not a chance for someone to go essentially "See? I told you this series sucks!" and I think the thumbnail has the potential to feed into a broader problem. "The Rings Of Power Has A Narrative Momentum Problem" (How (Not) To Progress A Story)" does not accurately reflect the breadth of content of the video, implying a systemic, broad issue while the video (sans thumbnail and title) actually talks about a smaller scale issue that doesn't affect the broad scale quality of the series' narrative as the title implies, and so comes off feeling somewhat baiting due to the surrounding context of a platform rewarding hot takes.
Great insights about the editing! I also found a lot of basic editing mistakes throughout the episodes (most annoyingly, background characters mouths not moving while speaking, clearly sourced from an alternate take). I think there's also just a lot of plain structural issues with the script which hamstrings the entire production. The only word that repeatedly comes to mind for me is 'disappointment' when thinking of this show. The team was out of their depth and it came across in the final product, unfortunately.
"Disappointment" is the name of the game for me too. It's obvious the cast and production team put a lot of love into the show, but the plot contrivances kill any momentum built by the better scenes. I hope they do better.
It's nice to finally put a face with your voice. As an editor I do like going back and remixing elements of film and you are correct hindsight is so important for creating a better functioning whole.
This show was DOA. They completely blew Valinor, where snotty kids fight over paper sail boats and their older siblings make banal derpisms. Then the elves in the tower assured us that evil was defeated, just to get captured by presumably invisible orcs in invisible trenches (off screen of course) in the next episode. The writers are either complete morons or think that the viewers are. Well some probably are, but I'm not.
The perfect scene to intersplice between the Numenoreans sailing and their cavalry charge would have been cutting to them passing through the pass that will become the future site of Minas Ithil/Morgul aka Isildur's future capital city. It would be great fanservice to show that vale as beautiful as it once was with waterfalls and verdent fields and have Isildur look at it in wonder with Galadriel and then Halbrand could be used to hint at him being Sauron by pointing something out on the horizon that none of the other men can see, and Galadriel will see with her elf-eyes, smoke rising from the burning tower and village in the distance. She could look at Halbrand ("true king of the Southlands") with a look of worry and pity that something is happening to his people and he can get a determined look on his face and charge off in front of the army like Aragorn at the black gates, only to have Galadriel kick her horse and charge after him, followed by Elendil raising his sword and bellowing for his riders to go forward and begin the charge on the horizon (This also feeds into what Elendil said about the eastern horizon while on the boat and about how it has a negative context for him; feeling like twilight rather than morning. A foreshadowing of the suffering his army will soon endure both in combat and from Orodruin.
Been watching you videos for a while and want to congratulate you on your work. As a Tolkien fan I wanted to love this, but I didn't in the end. As you said, some elements were there, but it lacked emotional catharsis. I agree that the best part is Elrond and Durin's bromance. Keep up the good work!
They really need a better editor and writer's room. They felt preoccupied with their checkboxes, and the editor was just not up to the task (continuity errors galore, strange/ jarring shot selection, dialogue sync was spotty at times).
Great great points on the pacing! I love how you recut the scene for the Numenoreans saving the villagers. I got goosebumps. Great great analysis! I think the issue is the writers did not pace the scripts to fill in the total amount of time so instead they use slowmo and multiple cuts to fill the episodes. Lazy
This is a great, hands-on and tangible example of good vs. bad editing. And while I understand your humility, this is also editing 101. The showrunners absolutely should have got this right. But for whatever reasons, they did not. And that is quite telling, as these types of fundamental issues reverberate throughout the entire show.
I think there's a massive problem in Hollywood and big projects like this where it seems that either in the writing phase or in the direction and shooting phase, they seemingly have committed to the very first idea that has come to the mind or the "first draft". I noticed it with scenes that are kinda iffy (like the battle scene in this video), but on my first thought, I didn't see anything wrong with it per se, it just fell kinda flat, but still worked. And that's basically what the first ideas typically are, right? They "fit", but really aren't as good as you could go with relatively little additional effort. I guess it's super tight deadlines, so people just don't have the time to really let ideas marinate, they have no time to think for better ideas.
Those scenes you changed got me riled up where I was really confused when I actually watched the real thing. It was much more like the charge of Rohan towards the armies of mordor or Rohans charge against the uruks. Great job :)
I must agree, on the positive side at the very least it proves that no matter the gargantuan size of the budget, if you alienate half your audience through hiring mediocre writers, inserting political ideology or misogyny or misandry then no size budget matters. Because the plot and characters are nonsensical or unlikeable. Infinitely interesting content keep up the great work and I pray that this message finds you well!
I really didn't like the show, and must disagree with what you said of the seventh chapter being the best. I felt like it was the lowest of the whole series. I must begin by saying that I am aware that Amazon, for better or worse, did not get full rights for The Silmarillion so had to invent a lot of stuff and character arcs. I am content with that, and don't mind it. However, I felt like there were many things that were not very well presented or were not consistent. For example, in some chapter (maybe fifth?) we hear Durin and Disa complaining about King During being very hard to deal with and stuff like that, but are then shown a scene in which he is *very* reasonable and shows his affection towards Durin, which makes the point fall short. We actually only see King Durin being a prick until almost the end, when he makes a tantrum because Durin mines for the Mithril. I feel there are other examples of this, but will not go into it because... space. Overall, the main idea is that things are not built up properly, and so the show is just... bland. It doesn't make sense, you don't ever relate to the characters because they're all around boring or disagreeable, with maybe the exception of Halbrand whose character was very well developed. All in all, mediocre show.
For me the issue was that it's often too plot-driven. Galadriel just... ends up where she needs to be through no decision-making of her own, and by utterly bizarre coincidence stumbles from plot contrivance to plot contrivance. I didn't watch up through the episode being discussed here, but it looks like more of the same issues I was seeing early in the season that made me stop watching. To me it feels like the season written top-down. Galadriel has to be here and here and here because we have plot beats planned for those locations and events. Now go back and figure out ways to make sure she is where she's supposed to be. There's less pressure on Elrond, so his story feels more character-driven, which is probably why it works better.
There's a scene in the final episode that reveals their starting point from which you can see where all these plot points were born from and thrust into the story. It was like watching a flow chart on a white board expand out to ticked boxes. It was not like watching the natural and engrossing development of characters and motivations.
What did you think of The Rings of Power? Let me know below!
Good story but badly executed
Amazon missed the mark by 10,000 miles. Middle Earth is not something you hand over to inexperienced persons. Hope its canceled before season 2 is released.
I love it. Several characters I can relate to, others that I admire. It's so beautiful, wholesome, and I love the pacing. I'm sick of shows & films that rush everything & dwell on appalling behaviour.
I have a really hard time finding anything good to say about it. It's like they literally failed almost everything they could, I still don't understand how you can do that amount of mistake in a show with such a budget. Thinking how much good things could have been produced with this money makes me kinda sick tho
it's shit
I'm not entirely ready to accept you saying you're a lesser writer than the show runners, but I applaud your humility.
You can't just self-proclaim that you are a better writer than the self-proclaimed writers. That would make you the same as them.
@@bobofthestorm that's why I'm here in the comments doing what he cannot. :)
There's also a SIGNIFICANT difference between a long-form essay and a script. Someone can write a 50 page paper that is riveting and conveys its point eloquently and concisely but be unable to write dialogue without it feeling stilted and unnatural. The opposite is also true.
Oh come on. Yes, I agree with his suggestions, but the task of creating the whole show is vastly more difficult than rewriting a scene AFTER watching it. Just because you don't like the show doesn't mean the writers are bad. For this show in particular, the bar of expectations is incredibly, perhaps impossibly high.
@@LaneCarter Which is exactly why nobody in thier right mind would have let a pair of twats with no actual writing or production credits to their name write and prodice the most expensive TV show ever.
And yes, I'm aware they were uncredited writers on the film that killed the 'new' Trek movie reboot.
Dead on.
This is exactly why Philippa Boyens, Fran Walsh and Peter Jackson spent so much time perfecting their screenplay of the lotr books.
Definetly a lesson as to why you need tallented people in your writers room with you no matter who you are.... Thank god for Philippa and Fran.. the amount of times you hear them say in the audio commentary "oh remember when we had to talk peter out of this crazy action scene here.." they obviously werent in the hobbits writers room as often haha
@@Ma55ey The Hobbit mess wasn't all Peter Jackson's fault though. He wasn't suppose to direct the movies, and then when they gave him the movie they gave him no time to prepare (I guess he only had 2 months or something). That's why they used so much visual effects, and he said he had to make shit up as they were filming. The Hobbit could be great if they gave him the same amount of time to prepare.
Not only the time and effort that was spent on writing the script by the trio you named made the movies a huge success. They had one agenda: "this is Tolkiens story, not ours. So there is no space to put our luggage into the movie".
It's not just the writings fault.
This could've been a mix of Cinematography, Directing and Editing.
If the Cinematographer and Director need to make sure they have enough coverage, and the Producer needs to oversee if they have the time and money to get all the coverage needed.
If they don't have the coverage, the editor has very little to work with.
There are many stages in the film production process where these holes in the narrative can occur.
Writing room, Visual Coverage through shotlist/storyboards, schedueling/Money or editing.
At every single point in a production it's very easy to loose sight of the storytelling and only be focused on keeping the production going
@@haalandfilms1695 you nailed it ! I would just add that to ensure all of these dimensions end up in a successful outcome, you need a strong leadership, with someone, director or producer, able to detect wrong trends and redirect the teams for a better results. When that « conductor » is missing, you can get a wrong a product even though the individual contributors have the right skills and resources
The show felt like sitting down in your favorite restaurant- the music, the ambience all there. But then you just sit and wait for someone to bring you the menu for the rest of the night. There’s “stuff happening” but we’re just observing, not experiencing
And you're left sitting there, thinking "give me meat and give it to me raw"
@@DildoDaggins69 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
and when your food does arrive, and you say that's not what i ordered, all the staff run at you and scream racist at you, and call you a Nazi!!! and tell you to leave and that this restaurant wasn't made for you in the first place....
The music isn’t even there. Nor is the ambiance. It’s just a cheap replica.
@@Ma55ey to be fair, a lot of people complaining were legitimately racist as shit.
Whilst forced diversity is a problem, as shown with HOTD it can be very easily overlooked if the quality of writing is there, but people were so obsessed with race they convinced themselves THAT it was the fatal flaw.
Really great work here! You so wonderfully put into words what I could not. This scene, like a number of aspects of the show, seem to be "out of tune" as you say and fall flat where they should have soared. Hopefully they make the necessary adjustments for season 2 and give fans the show they deserve.
What I never understood is how did the Numenor army know there was a sense of urgency to get to that specific village? I didn't get why they had to gallop from the river to there. afik , they had no idea what was going on, no scouts or intel and anyone else would have just walked their way there. Did the discuss it when they looked at the map on the ship? And how did they fit that many horses in 3 smallish ships? Are they build like icebergs?
Plot required it to happen. I don't see any other answer. In the Two Towers movie Gandalf states at the beginning that he'll return at sunrise, the risk being if he fails on his task, but we as the audience and the characters all have the information. Earlier in that movie when Rohan villages are starting to come under attack the woman sends her kids on the horse so we see how the information of the attack and how close the threat is gets broadcast. It ties the story together and makes sense, it also helps set up future pay offs.
It felt like ROP did such a poor job of this throughout the show, things just happened when they happened.
Also, why is Galadriel out in front leading the army instead of Elendil, Halbrand (assumed King of the Area), Numenors general (s)? She is a tag along on a revenge trip at best.
She had more horsepower 😆@@marikka9347
It's insane to me that the battle in the village takes place at night and you see the Numenorians running up in daylight....when they are supposedly happening at the same time, in the same continent, even the same region..... seems like they had an idea of how to do the whole thing and then went crazy with the editing.
Reminds me of Plan 9 from Outer Space, honestly. Also, isn't the attacking army supposed to be riding east? Then how come the sun rises behind them? When someone's spent this much money on a show, I don't expect to see elementary goofs like this.
This was the first thing I noticed, I'm surprised he didn't bring that up
This whole show is filled with continuity errors.........
I assumed it wasn’t supposed to be happening at the same time to give a better rhythm to the episode. It’s quite common to edit discontinued scenes in parallel to contextualise the causality of one scene on the other.
But then again, I was expecting the Numenorians to be days late and find the villagers massacred.
I wonder of there was any big changes in the editing. Maybe they were forced to cut out important connecting tissue between scenes or something
With each episode I was further dumbfounded by how little they had managed to cram into an hour-long runtime
Yeah, narrative momentum is the least of this show's problems.
I was just begging for a character that made logical systematic choices.
Nobody makes any sense in this show... :(
every week i found myself saying. "i cant believe nothing happened, yet again". This show has soo many problems. Worst part is the finale tries to pretend like it told a compelling story.
They could have told the story they did in 2-2,5 episodes.
@@storyseek1985 There were people that did but they were put into negative roles ... Durin III, is perfectly rational and consistent in his portrayal .. Ar-Pharazon has perfectly good reasons for what he does and even explains them ... Everyone else a complete mess... especially if Guyladriel was involved ... things just fell apart around her ...
It's really refreshing to hear someone speaking critically about the show without whining, shouting, or being sarcastic, and giving genuine examples of how it might have been done better. Great video.
The most glaring issue of this show was the portrayal of Sauron's agency. He, through no will of his own, in fact through the designs of Galadriel herself, becomes the evil Middle Earth had never seen before. He does not choose to go to Numenor. He does not decide to go back to Middle Earth. He does not decide to become King of the Southlands. He does not plan to meet the elves. He does not plan or plot to create the rings, or deceive the elves or anyone. The greatest baddie of Tolkein's lore, the greatest evil that Middle Earth has ever faced, does not want any of it. He simply is manipulated, coerced, and forced along to do this, by the apparent protagonist of the story.
It also sounds like he wants to do good by the world instead of simply succeed where Morgoth failed, and his characterization will be a mixture of a Breaking Bad character and a Sopranos character in Season 2.
Well, I really don't like the show for a couple of reasons but if you know Tolkiens World, how Sauron tried to get power in the Second Age and that almost everything he said and says is manipulating and following a greater plan, then Sauron is one of the better parts of the show
No, that is Melkor disguised as Galadriel
Something like that, yes. It's not that he didn't do any of this things, but he is "evil going along". Situations arise and he follows. He is not an active character, he is re-active, if not passive.
"I don't want it."
- Jon Sauron or something, idk I didn't watch the show
Like, gotta love there is people like you that are able to present critisism without the use of overused buzzwords.
Agreed--this is an excellent example of a *good faith* criticism that's specific and constructive. Contrast the myriad bad faith ones out there, built on vague assertions and imagined ideas of the showrunners' intent.
@@ThePhantomSquee Have you paid attention to what the showrunners and staff members have said? They're exactly the kind of people who would call Tolkien a fascist if he were still alive despite the fact that he was as anti-state as a man could get. Did you forget who they hired for the "Superfans" video in order to represent the fandom? Did you forget that they ghosted Peter Jackson? Did you forget that they replaced an actual Tolkien scholar with a yes man? I also wouldn't treat the allegations of poor treatment towards the premiere attendees so lightly.
But if buzzwords accurately describe how trash the show is why not use them? Afterall, they re accurate. The show is indeed beyond shit.
@@arandompanda1349 In my opinion, its the effect of reapeting the same words until they lose their intended meaning. And that everyone just change that meaning over, and over again. So is better for everyone ( to grow as a creator) to avoid them, so its better understood your opinion.
Idk if i made sence or i expained myself like shit.
@@SirBlackReeds I dont see in bad faith to call out corporation like bullcrap.
Its the loud ones who think "woman bad..." instead of some structure problem in the writing.
The LotR clips make my eyes well up. The RoP clips make me roll my eyes.
I'm an editor and you've hit the nail on the head. In ways I couldn't even notice at first. Emotional pacing should have been analyzed in the edit. The editing was too cold and technical so it did not help our engagement with our feelings. The art of telling stories is becoming lost in the edit of even billion dollar shows.
Yeah, it should have been improved in the edit, but I suspect even a better edit couldn't have saved it from being a mess.
@@skepticalextraterrestrial2971 right. Execution doesn't save poor writing. But there's no excuse for both being poor.
You'd think the editor of a billion dollar project would take the time to figure stuff like this out.
You'd think the company spending a billion dollars on the project would not go out of its way to attack the fans of the source material.
@@SirBlackReeds Yes unfortunately the fans of Tolkien don't decide how Amazon spends its budget. They are immune to criticism because they are backed by corporations that can not fail unless you believe that Amazon has any competition or ever will.
Don't blame the editor. This whole show looks like writing, directing and editing by committee. That's why it feels so bland and disjointed.
@@SirBlackReeds One might even think it’s by design to distract journalists from investigating in whose pocket(a) the billion dollar went.
But they weren't interested in taking their time. They wanted a quick payoff.
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. I would also like to point out that the show has a pacing issue on the broader level.
There was so much slogging throughout the season. But once we got to the most interesting part imo (Saurons déception of the Elves and the forging of the rings) it was rushed through in one episode.
Felt almost like an afterthought and badly paced as well.
Yes, the show is called The Rings of Power, after all. So you would have thought that the story would centre around the creation of those rings, the characters involved in that, and the ambitions and goals behind wanting to create the rings in the first place. And it could be a long, fascinating, beautifully told story if done right. But so far... Nope.
Agreed. Completely baffling to me the show spent so much time on a storyline like the Harfoots, and literally less than a single episode on Sauron’s deception and the forging of the rings, things that took literally hundreds of years in the book.
@@hadtopicausername Not to mention that the motive for creating the titular Rings was completely contrived. What a mess!
I have 16 years of daily editing experience. What you are describing is a fix to a very basic pace mistake. I bet there was a producer in an editing room who "knew himself how to do this easy work".
I hope they learn to leave creatives alone.
Yeah, probably another show that was 'death by committee'
@@storyseek1985 totally agree. Lots of nice scenes with no soul... sign of a lot of meetings
@@themidgardguy9796 Never. Greed and arrogance.
@@storyseek1985 I figure they were more afraid of Bezos than they were about contaminating the lore. It's always a bad idea to do a story solely for financial purposes - not because you have a story to tell. I'd have prefered to see all that money sunk into a new franchise by the great writers of our time than to see it dumped on the LotR franchise without actually knowing where they were going with it.
Should have gone for three more seasons The Expanse instead. That way they could have had their epic franchise without disappointing so many people.
This is easily one pf my absolute favourite critiques of the show, critical but not unfair while being constructive and accurate. It's sometimes said that films/Tv shows are written 3 times. During the script, filming and editing. This really highlights that last one. One should consider this during writing and filming.
You're a great editor by the way. It can be very hard to re-edit a scene to work better with no extra footage (I've tried). Really awesome job!
I agree with your assessment but my review was a bit more harsh. To me, having so many false notes and things that didn't make sense in the unfolding of the narrative is a red handed sign of neglect in production. It's beyond disappointing to me. Because it doesn't have to be that way. Thank you for this balanced video and I hope the producers here you.
I'd be VERY surprised if this show wasn't shot in the new 'scrapbooking' method - where they shoot a wide number of 'options' rather than a pre-planned sequence of story beats.
It just feels so incredibly disjointed and illogical. Disney does it a lot.
In RoP, some things are given MASSIVE weight one moment, then nearly ignored the next. Characters just magically know things, have things (like armor), and ebb and flow in their resolve, motivation, and intentions... it just flip flops all over the place.
@@storyseek1985 They have no reason to shoot it like that. It's not like an Avengers movie that's already well established and people are constantly making observations about the characters and the story in comparison to the last one. Also that's something you would only do in a movie because it's a complete story from start to finish. A TV show is often written as they go so especially when it comes to a Bad Robot crew they have no idea where the story will go until they get to it. And when you have bad writers like the Bad Robot crew it often means they write themselves illogical out of holes or break continuity because they don't remember what they wrote before. It's just simply bad writing and there's some people out there making excuses for it.
Yeah well I'd be more surprised if I hadn't seen the same disrespect for properties like Star Trek, Doctor Who, Ghostbusters etc. And it always comes from hiring activists who think they're better writers than the source material. Most of the time they turn out to be absolute hacks with little skill or experience and I'm both tired and frustrated that this bullshit has continued to infest and twist society to bad practices and behavours.
@@storyseek1985 That sounds like a likely method/ culprate as to what's happening. I'm curious as to what is being taught now in university for Video Produciton.
@@Moist_yet_Crispy At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, scrapbooking is an amazingly effective method for production contributors to leech large sums of money from studios with relatively no additional benefit to the viewers.
I am continually impressed by your insights, delivery, editing, and general high quality videos, some of which I have recommended to my students to watch. Maybe I just share your perspective, but honestly at times you express ideas that I have never considered but which resonate clearly. Thank you!
I'm pretty certain the arrangement of the charging scene as you describe it is the one that was originally intended. That's the only thing that would explain the glaring continuity error where we go from pitch black nighttime to brightly lit sunrise, to night and then back to day. There's not even any dawn in between.
Why they felt the need to edit it out of sequence is anyone's guess and as you pointed out, we can doubt it was the right decision but at least I'm absolutely certain it was an afterthought.
I wondered if they realized it would seem weird to suddenly see the soldiers charging without having seen them rushing through middle earth, so they changed the sequence, hoping to give us a sense of the distance and time spent travelling. Very poor editing choice !
In my humble opinion these scripts will be remembered as a case study for writers as everything you shouldn’t do if you plan writing
I was thinking the exact same thing - this will be taught as an example of what not to do and what could have/should have been done. After rewatching this video, this seems blatantly obvious now and really makes me question who Amazon has hired to be failing this badly - this 20 minute video, the content suggestions and adjustments, would have made a staggering difference in the quality of production. We now know WHY the 2 main "showrunners" have never been used before - they simply aren't good at it.
only if they remember...
Yeah this is just a video about how poor the editing is in one scene. You could make hours worth of videos on the bad directing and writing
You do all definitely made a good point !
I think it was a bad choice to go for the mystery box. From the first glimpse of those character posters they wanted the audience to just be guessing who's who. It makes it difficult to connect with characters while you're busy filing away clues if they are the big baddie or not... That's why the dwarf plotline works: Elrond and Durin are relatable characters, they are neither boring nor one-dimensional, but i know my emotional investment in them won't be iverthrown by some "clever" reveal in the end.
That's what happens when you've taken the Abram's school of writing. There's the video online of him doing a public speech about coining his term mystery box and its his selling gimmick that people were fooled into believing. The mystery box is just a definition for setting up a mystery. Stories have done this for decades. JJ was just the first one to give it a more intriguing name. However a mystery box doesn't contribute inherent value from just establishing it. For example if I walked around town carrying a box in my hands saying, oh there's something fascinating about this box, just wait and see then finally I open the box and it's empty or there's just a glove in there. How would you feel about that box then?? Chances are you would care or be disappointed about the reveal. On top of that the mystery box may have no relevance to the story so you might feel that it was pointless in the first place. In this we can see the fallacy of relying on a mystery box alone. It needs to be payed off well and have an impact on the greater story. That's the reason why The Last Jedi didn't work for a lot of people. In Johnson's fallacy to simply subvert expectations without consideration to the context and purpose of story structure, his reveal fell short and people felt cheated or unsatisfied. On top of that his reveal really had no greater consequence to the character. Knowing this fact maybe disappointing and hard to accept but it also doesn't present a problem or challenge going forward. Rey is able to continue in the same way that she was before. On the other hand Luke learning Vader is his father means that he can nolonger face Vader the same way he did before. He's now got inner turmoil with how to handle the situation. Should he continue to try and stop Vader by killing him or try to turn him back to the light side?? I've already seen Studios hire inexperienced writers who kill a property so I'm not surprised it's becoming more mainstream like on this show and with Marvel.
The showrunners are JJ Abrams disciples. Of course they go for the "mystery box" story. That's the only story technique they have learned.
aha! the cinematographer in me has this “um, something doesn’t feel visually right”, & you finally resolved what was irking me! the editing.. i ran into this “subconscious itch” that kept emerging in me during the viewing experience throughout the season.. the “larger scale” trouble in totality has now given me what my wandering finger has wanted to put it on.. a slight lack of investment from episode to episode yet in almost “ignorable” small amounts.. thank you for your commentary!
I get chills everytime you cut to scenes where hope is returned to the battlefield in LOTR.
In Game Of Thrones, Battle of the Bastards. Imagine we see Jon’s army getting annihilated, then we cut to the Knights of the Vale riding in an open field. Then we cut back to John suffocating, only to cut back again to the Knights doing a valiant charge. Cut back to Jon almost dying. Then finally reveal that the knights of the vale arrived like it’s some huge surprise.
I like your breakdown and you attempt to improve episode six, but momentum via the pacing of the writing and editing is but one of the many flaws permeating this entire show. This show isn’t the worst thing ever created, of course not… but the drummed up controversy around it serving as an end-all be-all shield for the studio and show runners to hide behind when there’s a deluge of *GENUINE CRITICISM* hurled their way is bound to alienate those who may have approached it in good faith void of any politics or hyperbolic takes. There are a plethora of ‘nitpicking’ things that we could get into, the show suffering a death of a thousand paper cuts, but ultimately it all comes down to the writing. It’s simply not good, even separate from being an ‘adaptation’.
I think this show is the worst ever created. It was by far the most expensive ever created. So there may have been 'worse' shows those shows had much lower budgets and other constraints on them. This show had everything going for it and all they had to do was hire some competent people to execute it. Instead we got a distorted nightmare where Galadriel literally bi-ched Sauron into taking over the world, the harfoots are filthy hobbitsis and virtually nothing anyone did in the story mattered at all. Dollar for dollar this was by FAR the worst piece of media ever created.
@@moseszero3281
It really isn’t. It’s this kind of hyperbole that makes so many corners of online criticism hard to take seriously.
You could do with following the example of the person who’s video you’re watching.
@@somanytakennames What did the show get right? A few pretty cinematic shots?
They spent a BILLION dollars and the only thing they accomplished character wise was making the Galadriel more self absorbed than a black hole and COMPLETELY responsible for the rise of Sauron. When confronted, he even reminds her that he TOLD her he found the king thingy on a dead man. And the writers have her gaslight everyone by trying to blame HIM for the whole southlands thing.
The dwarf forge storyline never went anywhere so the time they spent in it was pointless. They made the rings with the one piece of mithiril they had so the whole dwarves mining extra mithiril plot was pointless. The harfoots did nothing but show they are filthy hobbitsis who abandon their kin to die at the slightest inconvenience or odd occurance. Their whole existence in the story was pointless. The woman who stares at things (who i cant even be bothered to remember her name) was completely pointless. The fight in the village was pointless.
The dialog is horrible and full on non-sequitors. You almost NEVER get a coherent answer to a question. It feels like they wrote six different scripts then randomly shuffled lines together. Their attempts to sound tolkienien are pseudo-intellectual word vomit that sounds like it was written by a drunk 3 y/o.
All the protagonists are manipulative narcissists who are constantly validated by the show so much that they must be writer self inserts. The most honest and caring person in the show is Sauron.
And all of that is before you get into the monumentally stupid stuff like the magic blood sword that was NEEDED to open a freaking sluice gate that the orcs could have easily broken. And the vampire orcs that burn in sunlight but ONLY when its plot convenient. And staying in the village instead of using the CASTLE.
@@moseszero3281 i have to agree with you man, i had high expectations for that show, but it simply sucks.
@@moseszero3281 this show certainly wasn't worth the money. There are SOME redeeming aspects I can take away a least. Mainly from the only good storyline between Elrond/Durin. Let's remember Disney even bothered to spend any money on She-Hulk at all, which is far worse than this show in literally every aspect, and the billion dollar mega giant that is DISNEY produced some of the worst CGI within the last 5 years with their show.
The thing is, writing in the world of Tolkien is not something everyone can do. It is like listening to Mozart , then listening to your highschool band play Mozart. Those "bad faith" commentators as you say are right. Their passion makes them intense, but when you really listen to what bothers them it's the derailing of Tolkien's world, both in his writing ,and in its cinematic structure. Jackson's movies really held Tolkien as the model. I am not sure there are too many capable artists. Especially in this new era.
You are wrongly assuming that the showrunners intended to honor Tolkien's vision. Instead (and the showrunners openly admit to wanting this) they wanted to update Tolkien's world for the modern (the socially sensitive minority) audience. So no it is nothing like a school band playing Mozart. It is like a school band rewriting Mozart with hip hop beats to appeal to their friends and lovers of hip hop.
A great composer once said "you need someone better than me for that"
When you truly love a work and genuinely want to honour it, you try your best while staying faithful, and if you feel you're not up to the task, you don't start it.
I mean, some of those critics seem WAY too focused on setting up and tearing down feminist strawmen too.
These anti-sjw bad faith criticisms are the ones distracting from the real issues such as the ones pointed by this video.
6:00 It's a better structure, but what got me was that the times don't line up. The villager's fight is in pitch darkness, but the sun is high enough in the sky during the Numenorean's that it's obscured by cloud and not shining directly on the orcs and making them sparkle.. or whatever.
Hours must have passed between the breaking of the tavern door and the Numenorean's arrival, but there's no indication of that passage of time on screen.
It was clearly done for the cooler looking shot and as a call back to the Gandalf arrival during the Two Towers. The issues there was Gandalf was arriving from the east (Sun rise) and the Numenorean's were arriving from the west, so the sun shouldn't have even been there unless they were arriving at the end of the day.
They did the same thing in the final episode too when the Numenorean's were sailing home, the sun was on the wrong side for the time of day.
@@roskelld Why not have many suns? So that the light can always be illuminating from behind whoever is in the shot? Since they did that a few times already.
4:00 I never got this far in the series. I gave up. But my buddy and I had this same response in episode 3(?) where galadriel is riding a horse for a loooong slow-mo for no reason. We looked at each other and said What!?
Also known as the unintentional tampax commercial.
The part I dislike the most is how you start to get settled into a scene, and then they yank you away for a different plotline in a different place. The scene pacing isn't great
Edit: If they made a show entirely about the Elrond/Durin relationship and stayed with them it would be a banger
Agreed. I feel like a lot of tv and movies do this in efforts to create cliffhangers, but it doesn’t work when we barely care about the characters, and to me, it feels cheap, like they’re perceivably trying to make more out of less. They didn’t do the heavy lifting required to make those scene cuts leave us wanting more.
Well the mithril plot line is now completely irrelevant, so all of the dwarf stuff was pointless. I assume Elrond will teleport over again and tell Durin: "Never mind. See you in another few hundred years." And Durin will ball his eyes out.
The Duffer Brothers effect. Fucking detest that.
@@scambammer6102 The elves never used the dwarven forge so that was pointless. The harfoots did nothing so they were pointless. The brunette who stares did nothing so she was pointless. The whole creation of the rings explained nothing about how sauron made them evil so THAT was pointless. Also the one piece of mitiril treated the sickness and it stayed treated after the mitiril was removed so all they had to do was treat each elf or part of the tree once then keep going till the sickness was cured so the whole need for the rings was pointless. The only thing that was changed by things people did in the show was Galadriel motivated/bullied Sauron into being evil when he repeatedly said he didn't want to be that way. So the whole show did nothing except make Galadriel responsible for everything evil Sauron did afterwards.
Amazon literally NEEDS quality people like you which they simply do not have.
LSOO doesn't have the right worldview to work with a Middle Earth narrative.
He is gifted for sure but his values don't align
I have little sympathy for their narrative missteps related to stuff they changed for no good reason. Filling in gaps is one thing, leaving out some things that don’t contribute to the story is another, but if you start struggling to maintain characters, events, themes, or worldbuilding that was written in direct conflict with the source material, it serves you right
Exactly! A total mess.
I caught myself rooting for Sauron several times. That shouldn’t be possible in a LOTR show.
Petition for Amazon to hire this guy for season 2.
petition to cancel this trash and remove it from internet more like
there's gunna be a season 2?
@@DizzyDisco93 sadly. They even want to make a total of 5 seasons
🙏🙏🙏
Its already green lit for at least four I believe
Really interesting approach to the topic, it was quite effective at highlighting how micro issues can be revelatory for macro problems!
Fixing the momentum doesn't solve the largest problem. The Rings of Power is a show that utterly despises its source material.
The fight scenes also suffer from close-up-itis, which _always_ creates the nagging impression that the close, shaky camera and the fast editing are used to cover up crappy fight choreography. If you chop up your fight into 1-second segments, the footage cannot possibly be any good, can it?
I just came to your channel few minutes ago to check if there's something about Rings of Power. And here it is!
Considering how much money has gone into this series im baffled by the quality.... The chainmail being very obviously printed onto fabric in some scenes was the last straw for me 😂
Really?? What episode/timestamp?
@@stepahead5944 every scene with Miriel once she has her armour on - a large gap around her upper arms, they don't even try to hide where the fabric creases its literally just a tshirt
@@Wendigosh Wow, I'll definitely be looking for it.
I always love a zippered boot
I don’t watch The Rings Of Power. Peter Jackson’s original trilogy remains enough for me. The longevity of a franchise can often sadly have a draining effect on quality. Thank you, Tom, for sharing your wisdom on this subject.
I agree with all your notes about how the charge of the Numenoreans could have been cut better, as well as how the villagers should have been outside as they arrive.
My thought on how that could have happened ties with an improvement I would have made to Adar's battle strategy. Specifically, once the villagers retreat inside the tavern, Adar has his orcs use the torches we saw them with before to set fire to it while he delivers a final ultimatum for them to surrender and give him what he wants, or die screaming in flames. We could see the villagers trying to hold out, choking on smoke and hearing the rafters start to buckle from the heat, before Theo looks at his wounded mother and chooses to give Adar the sword and try to bargain for their lives. At this point Adar, furious over how many of his orcs died in their tower stunt, walks away from the huddled villagers while announcing he will wipe the Southlands clean of the taint of Men.
Before the orcs can start, we see the water rippling, then their gaze turns toward the horizon; we hear the war cries of the Numenoreans as they crest the hills around the village. Here, the orcs would start scrambling to form a line of spears/pitchforks to meet the charge while some of them climb onto nearby rooftops to start shooting the Numenoreans with arrows, while Adar, standing next to the body of a fallen villager wielding a hatchet, tells Waldreg he has a task for him.
I agree one thousand percent! I thought the same thing with the Numenorians coming to Middle earth. Why don't the show runners get experienced people like you to do their editing. Something has been missing the whole series and you put your finger on it! Thank you!
I really appreciate your breakdown. There were a lot of times that I felt something was off but couldn't identify why the scene didn't work. Your analysis put into words what I was feeling.
I enjoyed ROP very much, but it definitely had issues with pacing and progression. I had difficulty figuring out exactly why some moments felt flat, and you've explained it so well. I think the showrunners will learn what worked and what did not, and S2 will be better. I'll continue to watch for the beautiful cinematography, costumes, and acting! And of course, any excuse to visit Middle-Earth is always a treat! Please keep up the great work. Love your channel!
“… any excuse to visit Middle-Earth is always a treat.” You can always go back to the LOTR trilogy for Middle-Earth and for the better story and characters.
@@tototats16 the Trilogy will always hold a special place in my heart, but I'm also interested in new stories and artistic interpretations of the world.
Subscribed. Your "rough" edit was so much more impactful when I watched it, I was highly impressed and look forward to more like this. Excellent work.
I have a similar reaction to the series.
I mostly put it down to "bad writing" or "writing by committee" - maybe related to the fact that multi-episode, multi-season TV adaptations just aren't as focussed on honing their screenplays to be as coherent and powerful as they have to be for, say, a full-length film or even a trilogy of such films to be memorable.
Maybe it's more a matter of editing, as is suggested here.
All I know is that when I compare S01 of RoP to "Dune" (Part I), I can't help but seeing how poor an adaptation RoP is for all the mega-millions they spent on each and every one of its 8 episodes...
Lol, RoP is an adaptation in the same way orcs are elves. It's glorified fanfiction.
I often felt like things "just happened for no reason" in the show, but I figured that there was some explanation in the show that I'd missed because I was distracted by the bad dialogue, acting, direction, and constant jumping between storylines. Thanks for pointing out that on top of all of the other major flaws, things really DID just actually happen for no reason in the show.
Drinks all around!
LSOO, thank you! It is an absolute pleasure, watching your clips!
I can’t get over how dumb it was to make their main character Galadriel. She could’ve been any random elf and it probably would’ve been fine. But they took one of the most well-loved Tolkien characters and twisted her into somebody else entirely. And not in a good way. Just plain stupid.
My biggest gripe is the gross mishandling of costume design and their associated budgets in some episodes. The show has over three times the budget of the original movies iirc, yet the best they equip the Numenorian fleet is with leather curiass' and green robes. They also amass a total of 300 men for a potential battle for the WORLD, but that's beyond this point.
Right! As soon as i noticed how some of their chainmail was obviously just printed onto fabric, showing the creases in the cloth and everything, i couldn't unsee it 🥲 not that im against shortcuts like that, if its well done - but with a buget that big c'mon
Exactly! Just like that Balrog reveal. Why the hell would you do that if it's for the Balrog to sit still for another season
Favorite new channel. Incredible analysis. I've felt the same way. Something was off but I couldn't pinpoint it
Super cathartic to finally find your breakdown of this series. When the show came out it felt like the discourse was super divisive and I feel like I never really heard a perspective like this that echoed how I experienced it: some decent things but also some "out of tune" notes that kept it from landing how it seemed to want to.
your edits are solid and also address some stuff that really bothered me but i hadn't put into words. this is actually a fun show so long as you're allowed to get blazed and make fun of the dumber stuff with your funnier friends.
Thanks for sharing! I did not catch this sequence narration glitch actually so it's very helpful to have a new perspective and solution. I too love to dissect story telling and find the glitches even in a powerful fantasy classic story like the Lord of the Rings. I love to stay down with a story until the very end, with its ups and downs, at its best and at its lowest.
The show fails in so many levels, writing, editing, character motivations and their overall growth episode to episode, the butchering of the story which is a cardinal sin in itself, but something that i truly cant comprehend is how they made middle earth from a wide open continent with lots of races , people, cities , to feel small. that is something unforgivable. Galadriel crossed the entire ocean swimming, the capital of Lindon shows nothing except the maybe 10-11 elves in total, the entire southlands that only had a village with three houses, the famed smiths of Eregion are not shown, and the city itself feels entirely empty, even in the beginning when the elves and the dwarves are building the tower, it actually has no one there. Moria felt great in the beginning than only small corridors with no one there mining only durin and elrond which is beyond ridiculous. Tolkien created a masterpiece of a universe, yet here middle earth seems small and uninteresting like just another fantasy land of some lesser known book
You beautifully orchestrated the well-deserved moment that we all needed. Thank you!
Picking on the 20 years Elrond was missing from Durin's life: Dwarves live around 250 years, 20 years would be a bit more of an eyeblink to them. If they wanted this to be meaningful it should have been 100 years. This is another little thing the show runners didn't seem to understand about the world they stepped foot in.
If we really get to the line of Durin the Deathless even a hundred years wouldn't be important enough to make a difference as Elrond would come back to find a whole new Durin that would still be 'his friend' because each successful Durin is supposed to have his predecessors memories
I think your criticism sums up everything wrong with the criticism of the series. You are taking a minor piece of dialogue and blowing it up into this massive problem. It's not. It must be hard to live in a world where you are picking it apart constantly.
Great job providing meaningful, constructive criticism. Many a review has amounted to little more than whining regarding the aesthetics of the show, to such an extent that, if there was any valid feedback, it's buried beneath the nitpicking.
I have no plans to ever watch this show, but I've been such a fan of your channel for so long that I knew I would benefit from your analysis. If I am ever helming a cinematic project, I would hire you as a script and film editor in a heartbeat. Keep up the good work!
We aplaud thee for that is our position, come Join us for our counter ROP series. Mae G'ovannen! Now the evidence is clear, and none can deny that "ROP" is not of Tolkien. Take heart for our EXSURGE TOLKIEN that makes robustly clear the heresy of Tolkien's Canon displayed out of the showrunner's mouths and hearts. They probably know nothing of Tolkien's masterpiece, as evident from their interview in the Vanity Fair Article. For "they who proclaim to loveth Tolkien, yet understandeth, not his world view can neither hope to create a new film, show, or series of his secondary world." "Auta i lóme!" and" Aurë entuluva!"
Man even the little adjustments you've made on these scenes with the music and the momentum build up felt so much more Jackson and Tolkien, huge applause! Crazy how one man in his house can do better than multiple studios with billions...
MOMENTUM! Thank you for solving this for me as well. Like you I like the show, but also didn't like it and couldn't figure out why. I also thought it was just all the negative criticism around it was influencing me, but it was more of an emotional jarring. I like the series so far, I hope they fix this going forward.
Finally I’ve been waiting to get your take on this, cool analysis
Im forgiving of awkward moments or “false notes”. But I really don’t think their writing team has the emotional literacy to pull this off. No subtext. Everything is vocalized. Characters are categorically 1 dimensional. Motives are weak.
This really had so much potential & there are screenwriters who could’ve sailed it. Yet another bloated budget wasted on C- artistry
And your background to make such a criticism is?
@@michaelguest4247 my art degree? maybe
Love your videos, and love that you're now showing your face. I was wondered what you look like when these videos make me tear up haha
Thank you!! finally, someone speaks about the really awkward momentum of the series, I understand is different from the excellent trilogy but at the same time...Breaking bad exists, and so does Mr. Robot, they have no excuse
Funny you should mention Breaking Bad. Given what they revealed about how Sauron will be characterized in Season 2, it sounds like the writers are deriving the show's material from what they watched in the past instead of rooting firmly on the actual source material.
@@SirBlackReeds they what? Oh goddammit
That fight with horses has a very tv feel, but not a good tv.
so many things in this show was there ONLY to be a reference to the PJ trilogy. the show didn't even try to stand on its own feet. Just out of touch people trying to please the "IT" crowd while desperately clinging on to something truly great without the faintest idea of WHY
Thank you for your video. It's a nice change from the full on hate stuff, and also the desperately trying to like it stuff. I was watching Peter jackson's Two Towers again last night, and just amazed at how much was accomplished sometimes in a matter of minutes. I never had even a single emotional or cathartic moment in all the Rings of Power. Those moments just kept on coming in the PJ trilogy....the difference between that and RofP was just....unfunny. Thanks for your humility and your earnest analysis!
Thanks for the video. You made an awesome assessment on how the flow of battle should have been.
2 more things that bothered me, were the extreme long fight between the dark elf (sorry don't know his name) and the big orc.
It took way to long and was illogical at the same time as the elf should have been unconscious in the way the fight went.
Also the explosion of the volcano and the over obvious plot armour some characters wore in that scene.
I really looked forward to this series though this episode is the last I've seen, period!
I wish the editor(s) saw this wonderful piece of feedback you're giving them. Masterful content, dear Tom.
The problem was that they had five entire episodes of build-up of multiple story lines with no payoff and no momentum. Episode 6 was good in that it finally provided that, but only for one thread of the story. It had to neglect the dwarf and brandyfoot storylines just to satisfy this one thread for us. I think you are right. If this was all put together well like the original movies it would be a great watch.
03:28 I got shivers after so many years, never once got a shiver during the Rings of Power
I must point out a few key parts:
1.
What is broadly being described in terms of the sequence shifting back and forth between hope and despair in a "jarring" way as is said here is also in a sense applicable to the Pelennor Fields battle in Return of the King. It bounces back and forth between hope and despair also as the tide of battle shifts between good and evil multiple times (from Rohan's arrival to the Haradrim's arrival to the dead army's arrival), especially comparable is how the scene cuts from Rohan running down the Orc horde to Denethor attempting to burn Faramir alive. It is a split second cut from one mood to the opposite and structurally the sequence behaves the same way, with Rohan on the cusp of victory until they spot the Mumakail stomping towards them in the distance and the jarring cease of the heroic music as the giant Mammoth creatures crush the Rohirrim under their feet.
What Like Stories of Old is pointing out here is not a structure of emotion, but a connection between editing and narrative structure. What makes the intrusion of the Numenorian advance jarring is that it aims to create a mood that is not in aligment with the shifting of the battle itself. While the Rohirrim's arrival into the scene coincides with their arrival into the battle itself, the Numenor enter the scene before they arrive in the battle, and they do so in a way that does not immediately change the following narrative, as we just cut back to the Orcs carrying on exactly where the cut left them off. And as for the intrusion of Denethor, it's important to remember that while his scene interrupts the victorious exhilaration of the madness around him, his scene ends by flowing back into that victorious tone, as his defeat by Gandalf and Pippin flows into the concurrent victory over the Orcs by the Rohirrim. The scene is still focused.
Another point you may examine is when the arrival of the Orcs' massive battering ram cuts the scene entirely, shifting back to Frodo, Sam and Gollum in an entirely different setting that isn't the same. Note however that the scene cuts as Gandalf sees the terrifying battering ram Grond approaching after the scene has reached a relief of equilibrium between the good and bad side and ominously implies a shift towards despair and the scene cuts back to a moment of ominous despair for Frodo, as Gollum is leading him alone into a scary tunnel we know to be a trap and the stakes of this story are just as high. The mood isn't changed by the cut, it carries it through.
This isn't a definitive statement on whether one scene to scene block of narrative is superior to the other, it's about how the use of editing interrupts the flow and if you are invested in the narrative, it is an executional flaw and not a fundamental one. One that affects the punch and flow of moments (of course important) rather than determining how the audience is going to feel. They don't determine how invested an audience is in the narrative.
2. One thing I will point out in defence of the series is the point of comparison for the setup of the Numenorians' arrival and their scene's connection to the narrative. What I must point out is that in Return of the King, you have the sequences of Rohan on approach to Minas Tirith and in that, as far as they know, Minas Tirith has merely asked for help and it isn't until late that the scene merely interjects an off-screen scout report remarking the state of the battle as they make for the city again. For the arriving force, the stakes are not the same as within the battle itself, they also are not aware of the exact nature of what they are riding towards and when they are, it is because of an entirely impersonal piece of expository information from a scout (which I think is only in the extended edition anyway) and they otherwise ride with purpose and conviction, but not with desperate haste. This is arguably (though I do not care really) something that is better in Rings of Power, as the energy and dramatic tension between the two sides of this sequence match up more evenly, as the Numenorians are in full sprint towards the village at their darkest moment, even if their information is not the same, the drama is of the same scope. Whereas in Return of the King, the determined, hopeful Rohirrim on approach do not share the same dramatic scope as the desperate soldiers of Gondor awaiting their seemingly hopeless doom. But again, I don't see this as a problem.
All of this is to say that moments do matter, but those moments aren't the narrative and narratives aren't simply comprised of moments. The Lord Of The Rings films are not masterpieces because editing provided certain scenes with more or less punch, that is only a part of the equation. What is fundamental is how much the audience cares about what is happening. What makes Sam carrying Frodo up Mount Doom moving is not the editing of the scene or the crescendo of the moment. I could show that scene to someone who isn't invested in this story and none of the execution would matter because they don't care about Frodo and Sam to begin with. Likewise you could edit the village battle scene to optimal perfection, yet to someone who isn't (or perhaps even refuses) to be invested in these characters, none of that work would mean the slightest little thing and wouldn't care about whether the editing was better or worse.
This is very important to bring up in relation to Rings of Power in particular, as there is undeniably a broad refusal to engage with the material at all that is of far greater consequence than a scene's editing and I want to clarify this. This video is good, as it uses a series to examine ways in which you could enhance a scene through editing and to that end serves its purpose very well. What would not be good is if people who hate this series come here to validate their pre-established feelings, failing to understand that this is a reflection on a scene and not a chance for someone to go essentially "See? I told you this series sucks!" and I think the thumbnail has the potential to feed into a broader problem. "The Rings Of Power Has A Narrative Momentum Problem" (How (Not) To Progress A Story)" does not accurately reflect the breadth of content of the video, implying a systemic, broad issue while the video (sans thumbnail and title) actually talks about a smaller scale issue that doesn't affect the broad scale quality of the series' narrative as the title implies, and so comes off feeling somewhat baiting due to the surrounding context of a platform rewarding hot takes.
There's also the issue of time of day. The horse charge takes place in the afternoon, while the Orcs enter the tavern in the middle of the night.
My mental image of you looking exactly like Werner Herzog is shattered
💀
Couldn't pinpoint where the story wasn't "working" for me. Like an itch you cannot scratch. Thanks mate !
Great insights about the editing! I also found a lot of basic editing mistakes throughout the episodes (most annoyingly, background characters mouths not moving while speaking, clearly sourced from an alternate take).
I think there's also just a lot of plain structural issues with the script which hamstrings the entire production. The only word that repeatedly comes to mind for me is 'disappointment' when thinking of this show. The team was out of their depth and it came across in the final product, unfortunately.
"Disappointment" is the name of the game for me too. It's obvious the cast and production team put a lot of love into the show, but the plot contrivances kill any momentum built by the better scenes. I hope they do better.
Same feelings. Your analyse helped me to understand it. Thank you.
When Arondir takes down the tower, to have Galadriel see it happen from afar would have been enough to make haste.
It's nice to finally put a face with your voice. As an editor I do like going back and remixing elements of film and you are correct hindsight is so important for creating a better functioning whole.
This show was DOA. They completely blew Valinor, where snotty kids fight over paper sail boats and their older siblings make banal derpisms. Then the elves in the tower assured us that evil was defeated, just to get captured by presumably invisible orcs in invisible trenches (off screen of course) in the next episode. The writers are either complete morons or think that the viewers are. Well some probably are, but I'm not.
Don't watch it then. The millions of viewers weekly that do watch it won't miss you. Trust me, we are willing to see you leave.
@@michaelguest4247 says guy who is commenting on a video that criticizes the show. Hypocrite much? Feel free not to comment. I won’t miss you.
@@michaelguest4247 Alot of viewers stayed with show to see if it improved. Whenever they release 2nd season the viewership will be much smaller.
The perfect scene to intersplice between the Numenoreans sailing and their cavalry charge would have been cutting to them passing through the pass that will become the future site of Minas Ithil/Morgul aka Isildur's future capital city. It would be great fanservice to show that vale as beautiful as it once was with waterfalls and verdent fields and have Isildur look at it in wonder with Galadriel and then Halbrand could be used to hint at him being Sauron by pointing something out on the horizon that none of the other men can see, and Galadriel will see with her elf-eyes, smoke rising from the burning tower and village in the distance. She could look at Halbrand ("true king of the Southlands") with a look of worry and pity that something is happening to his people and he can get a determined look on his face and charge off in front of the army like Aragorn at the black gates, only to have Galadriel kick her horse and charge after him, followed by Elendil raising his sword and bellowing for his riders to go forward and begin the charge on the horizon (This also feeds into what Elendil said about the eastern horizon while on the boat and about how it has a negative context for him; feeling like twilight rather than morning. A foreshadowing of the suffering his army will soon endure both in combat and from Orodruin.
You were a lot nicer than I was to this exact issue.
At 6:24 I am sure you mean "Cavalry" instead of calvary.
Nevertheless, absolutely spot on. I 100% agree with your video.
Been watching you videos for a while and want to congratulate you on your work. As a Tolkien fan I wanted to love this, but I didn't in the end. As you said, some elements were there, but it lacked emotional catharsis. I agree that the best part is Elrond and Durin's bromance. Keep up the good work!
So what I hear you saying is, the writers basically don’t know what they’re doing.
Yep, that checks with my experience too.
Thank you for articulating this so perfectly
It's nice that every once in a while I can watch a LSOO video without crying, questioning my place in existence, or both.
They really need a better editor and writer's room. They felt preoccupied with their checkboxes, and the editor was just not up to the task (continuity errors galore, strange/ jarring shot selection, dialogue sync was spotty at times).
Great great points on the pacing! I love how you recut the scene for the Numenoreans saving the villagers. I got goosebumps. Great great analysis! I think the issue is the writers did not pace the scripts to fill in the total amount of time so instead they use slowmo and multiple cuts to fill the episodes. Lazy
This is a great, hands-on and tangible example of good vs. bad editing. And while I understand your humility, this is also editing 101. The showrunners absolutely should have got this right. But for whatever reasons, they did not. And that is quite telling, as these types of fundamental issues reverberate throughout the entire show.
I love your humble, thoughtful and well-laid out approach!
Bro you are definitely a better writer than the people working on this show.
I think there's a massive problem in Hollywood and big projects like this where it seems that either in the writing phase or in the direction and shooting phase, they seemingly have committed to the very first idea that has come to the mind or the "first draft".
I noticed it with scenes that are kinda iffy (like the battle scene in this video), but on my first thought, I didn't see anything wrong with it per se, it just fell kinda flat, but still worked. And that's basically what the first ideas typically are, right? They "fit", but really aren't as good as you could go with relatively little additional effort.
I guess it's super tight deadlines, so people just don't have the time to really let ideas marinate, they have no time to think for better ideas.
People are being way too kind to this show.
You mean "harsh"? I haven't seen it (or Lotr so not a fanboy) but I've seen ntg but hate for it & occasional praise.
@@Comicbroe405 no, he means kind. The show deserves the backlash it gets. Would you consider it harsh if a bully got punished with criticism?
@Le Abdollen Doesn't look like it but ok
@@Comicbroe405 well. Id hope it LOOKS good. It has a billion dollar budget.
But. Looks aren't everything. Characters and story matter..
@Le Abdollen From the footage I've seen and what I've heard some friends say. Like I'm not saying its great cuz idk anything about it.
Those scenes you changed got me riled up where I was really confused when I actually watched the real thing. It was much more like the charge of Rohan towards the armies of mordor or Rohans charge against the uruks. Great job :)
I must agree, on the positive side at the very least it proves that no matter the gargantuan size of the budget, if you alienate half your audience through hiring mediocre writers, inserting political ideology or misogyny or misandry then no size budget matters. Because the plot and characters are nonsensical or unlikeable. Infinitely interesting content keep up the great work and I pray that this message finds you well!
I thank you. I couldn't give word to what I didn't like about the series, but you did.
I really didn't like the show, and must disagree with what you said of the seventh chapter being the best. I felt like it was the lowest of the whole series. I must begin by saying that I am aware that Amazon, for better or worse, did not get full rights for The Silmarillion so had to invent a lot of stuff and character arcs. I am content with that, and don't mind it. However, I felt like there were many things that were not very well presented or were not consistent. For example, in some chapter (maybe fifth?) we hear Durin and Disa complaining about King During being very hard to deal with and stuff like that, but are then shown a scene in which he is *very* reasonable and shows his affection towards Durin, which makes the point fall short. We actually only see King Durin being a prick until almost the end, when he makes a tantrum because Durin mines for the Mithril. I feel there are other examples of this, but will not go into it because... space. Overall, the main idea is that things are not built up properly, and so the show is just... bland. It doesn't make sense, you don't ever relate to the characters because they're all around boring or disagreeable, with maybe the exception of Halbrand whose character was very well developed. All in all, mediocre show.
I really appreciate your calm and detail oriented breakdown of the scene
For me the issue was that it's often too plot-driven. Galadriel just... ends up where she needs to be through no decision-making of her own, and by utterly bizarre coincidence stumbles from plot contrivance to plot contrivance. I didn't watch up through the episode being discussed here, but it looks like more of the same issues I was seeing early in the season that made me stop watching. To me it feels like the season written top-down. Galadriel has to be here and here and here because we have plot beats planned for those locations and events. Now go back and figure out ways to make sure she is where she's supposed to be. There's less pressure on Elrond, so his story feels more character-driven, which is probably why it works better.
There's a scene in the final episode that reveals their starting point from which you can see where all these plot points were born from and thrust into the story. It was like watching a flow chart on a white board expand out to ticked boxes. It was not like watching the natural and engrossing development of characters and motivations.
In my opinion, this should have been Elrond’s story.
@@Yusuf_K7 Second Age was never Galadriel's story. It was mostly Celebrimbor's then Elrond, Gil-Galad and Galadriel - in that order.