One of my female friends who used to enjoy Marvel (and Star Wars) films said to me that she enjoyed seeing good-looking men being unabashedly masculine. Whereas the current crop of female heroes felt simultaneously pandering and judgemental, while the men all turned into candyasses. (Her words).
That's roughly what my wife said too! She used to follow the MCU religiously, but hasn't really paid attention to anything after Endgame other than WandaVision and Spider-Man: No Way Home
@@richardmattocks Its not many people who didnt hear it. I guess you dont watch South Park..... I think 99% of people under the age of 45 have heard of it.
so lesson learned, when Fiege wanted to do something new and different, and perlmutter forced him to do the legwork to prove it was going to work, they had success. When Fiege no longer had to do the work and could just vomit all his bad ideas out without anyone to stop him, that success faded.
Pretty much. Also note that the very issues the Marvel Creative Committe was designed to prevent, are the issues plaguing the MCU now when it's no longer there!
@@scruffd0g193 Oh, yes, because the movies are so different; there's Dr. Strange who was... ah side character in his own movie like Loki; now there's The Marvels... a female pandering movie that is nothing but plotholes... like She-Hulk, and Ms. Marvel one of the characters in The Marvels... Hmm... What's the difference again?
Male superheroes’ biggest problems: The end of the universe, the pain of their loved ones in danger, the burden of responsibility She-Hulks biggest problems: MEN CALL ME EMOTIONAL WHEN I GET ANGRY!!!!😡😡😡😡😡😤😤😤😤😤😪😪😪😪😪😥😥😥😥😥😥
From the look's of it, Ike Perlmutter was a profit oriented but reasonable boss. If you could show him that something will work and make money, he would change his mind. Those are NOT bad qualities for a supervisor.
I just realized that I’ve been following this channel for almost 10 years starting with fant4stic. Look at where we are today, crazy times! Thank for ME for all you do in the community
Talking of Fantastic... According to Stan Lee, that old Fantastic Four movie was made very cynically. The studio would have had to relinquish the rights back to Marvel, UNLESS, they did something with the IP. So, they made a movie at the lowest possible budget, and planned to shelve it, once completed. The actors knew nothing about these shenanigans, and promoted the movie in good faith for many months.
I’m glad you mentioned Barbie, cause that movie is proof girls love girl things and not masculine superhero franchises staring girls. When they do watch superhero movies it’s to see the men being the heroes, women are attracted to it. Thats just in their biology.
@@SombreroBeanieHat I agree that that is EXACTLY what Marvel is trying to do... and they MIGHT be able to do it... but they'll lose the majority of their male audience, and most likely the vast majority of toy sales, too. IMO, they can have one or the other, but not both. We have different genres of ALL art forms for a reason... because nothing appeals to everyone.
Please don’t lump all girls into likely the shit that was Barbie… My general opinion is that Marvel movies can’t write good female characters. I’ve recently revisited Attack on Titan and Mikasa, Annie, and Historia are amazing female characters. Heck want to throw non-binary in there look at Hange; amazing character who while yes is female in the anime in the manga their gender is supposed to be unclear. Outside of AOT Nami and Robin in One Piece are amazing. Seven Deadly Sins and it’s sequel has Diane, Elizabeth, Merlin, Anne, and Gawain who again are great. They have their own stories, motivations, and personalities and guess what all the girl characters I listed here can fight and in their series are heroes/villains.
If the MCU ever became as great and successful as it used to be, it would be one of the most remarkable and amazing comebacks of all time. You can only dream.
I can tell you what happened. I called it out years ago. Sometime in one of the first three phases, my theory is towards the end of phase two, someone in Disney asked the question, why are they selling all the old Marvel comics and none of the new Marvel comics. It was pointed out that the movies concentrated on legacy characters. Then the idea came forward: make the new material about the new characters, dump the old ones. That's the entire reason why they're scrambling. Because they've tried to set up new character after new character and no one is caring. No one is watching. No one is buying.
Then, once there was precident in the Marvel comics, the studio could hide behind that for their crappy creative moves. Meanwhile, longtime Marvel fans were lighting them up for the changes in the comics (whether they were repping "Comicsgate" or not), and had intermittent cover in some form from the likes of Comicstorian and NerdSync, and others. They thought this would work...
I think it is wrong to think that new characters are unsellable. It is just that bad ones are. The ones created by political activists for political reasons
@@Shineinpoverty Yeah. Anyone who had any knowledge of the history of the comic-book characters would have known this. Sure, the best selling characters are old ... but they were all new at some time, and there is A LOT of old characters that never became that popular. Carol Danvers is an "old" character, but she has NEVER sold well. She-Hulk, is also an old character, but she DID sell well and was popular by both male and female readers. But her show tanked! Meanwhile, the Guardians of the Galaxy were never super popular, but their films made them the second most popular team in the MCU, right behind the Avengers themselves. So it should be clear that it does not make all the difference if a character is old, or new, or their comics were popular or no ... what matters is QUALITY! Iron Man was never the most popular Marvel hero ... but if the right director, has the right script, and the right actor ... he can launch a franchise worth BILLIONS!!! ... and putting a chick in it an making her lame and gay will destroy that same franchise.
Theur logic was: "Movies feed off popular comic characters and sell. New movies should feed off old popular movies and sell. New, hated, controversial comics should feed off new movies. Foolproof!"
As a reader of Marvel Comics from the late 80s to 2000s, i was super excited to see the MCU. I was in awe to see some of my favorites don't more accurate with decent budgets vs. the 80s and 90s ventures. What happened after Endgame is the greatest failure of Hollywood of all time. Good job Iger. You managed to destroy the two greatest cinematic franchises of all time. It's amazing. Someone needs to write a more accurate document of the MCU, not this BS.
I think it goes a bit deeper than this. Bob Iger pushed to acquire IPs he thought would mesh well with the Disney brand. He succeeded. Started thinking about retiring and then the Democrats came into power, the "me too" movement was gaining momentum, as well as BLM. And Iger got political ambitions. He started to push for female dominate content to show he was a team player. He also pushed for key staff members who supported this change. He then retired, but kept pulling a paycheck with Disney in case the political thing failed. He then invested his money in outside ventures that didn't play out. Funko being one of them. So the people he left in play became radicalized. They had COVID to explain off all of their missteps. And they had early Marvel and Star Wars success to claim that female and gender changing characters was what the audience in general wanted even if the box office and Disney+ numbers were soft. And because Iger had far too many bad investments he came back .... to praise. But what is the old saying? The Honeymoon was over. Iger then realized that everything he put in place turned to poo. Disney was bleeding money. He had little choice but to do many of the things Chapek was promoting to save money. Does Disney have a major purchase on the horizon? Yes they do, but they also have a plan to pay for it. They are selling a majority share of their Indian operations. A group that notoriously under pays for Disney + and are just numbers to present as viable subscribers. But Disney still has to address their brand problems. And to be honest, the damage has been done. Maintenance isn't where it needs to be in the US parks. Movies are under performing. Disney + isn't profitable. Even cruises are under performing. Yes, Disney can stay in the game for years, but their stock price is dropping continuously.
i liked Marvel comics, the movies were good, not accurate but good, personally wish pyrm was in MCU he's the one made Ultron, movies were good up to end game, once company went woke it went to dumpster, plus killing off Ironman and aging Captain america was biggest mistake they ever did.
It still amazes me that they decided to build the MCU around characters that failed in the comics while also ceasing to adapt stories from those comics. They have *decades* worth of material they already know works.
The most interesting part of this to me is, this is very much what happened to Doctor Who, though on a somewhat different scale. You have Chris Chibnall who was a Doctor Who fan and wrote episodes under the eye of Russell T Davies and Stephen Moffett. Then he gets put in charge of the show, and many have argued that this was due to politics at the BBC, and the first thing he reaches for is “diversity and inclusiveness“. And when he puts all of that into a franchise that had been in general, giving people what they wanted, it fell apart, and he didn’t know what to do, so he dug in his heels until he was removed. I think he and Kevin Fiege stand as reminders of a very simple fact - just because you love something doesn’t mean you understand why it works.
I'm taking away something different from Chibnall's example, and it reminds me of MotU: Revelations. The real creative mind behind it was the executive producer who worked for Netflix, touting himself as a huge MotU fan. Kevin Smith even deferred to him on major plot and casting choices. The problem is that this guy was a progressive authoritarian activist first, and a MotU fan a distant second. I don't see the failure as "being a huge fan but not getting it". I see it as a failure of "politics and agenda to influence the audience and culture first, and above all else" being the mindset of people like Chibnall, Kennedy, Feige, etc.
@@CloakofAuron you make a very good point here. It’s probably some of both - they definitely got overwhelmed by their politics, but the fact that they felt they could infuse them into shows that didn’t need them also shows lack of understanding of the properties themselves. Also, I would like to know how politically active all these people were before they got into the positions they’re in. Just so we know if they legitimately believe it all this or if they just reached for what they thought it would get them praise.
Make something appeal to women: It appeals to women. Make something appeal to boys: it appeals to everyone. Make something appeal to activists: it appeals to no one.
The same proportion of girls who like "boy stuff" is equal to the amount of boys that like "girl stuff." Problem is, they don't even make "girl stuff" any more.
Speaking in the broadest of generalities, when you try to appeal to boys, you often include a cool love-interest, which can appeal to women and create a love-story under-tone to your action-movie, or a tomboy/action-girl teammate, to appeal to the less stereotypically-minded women in the audience. Or, sometimes, you include both!
The She-Hulk "emotional" meltdown is of a piece with the America Ferrara "You have to be a mother, but not their mother ..." I'm guessing we're so busy telling little girls they can do everything that we forget to tell them life is hard for everybody and everybody hurts sometime.
Love Andre, love this content, but jfc listening to this jarring mispronunciation... especially since it sounds like the committee was a very good thing and you're not going for "comedy." Shocked no one in editing or post prod caught this and told him "bro we can't release this you've GOTTA do another take..."
As a Disney fan I'm happy that this movie is failing even harder than others. Because I want Disney to go back to telling good stories without a political message. Just good original stories I want to watch.
Original stories aren't the only reason for Disney's past success, Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty are not original Disney stories but were very successful because they didn't have woke crap and girl bosses in them.
That is unfortunately very hopeful, for what they have been constantly showing in so many of the Disney IPs. Be it Star Wars or Marvel, it has been a disappointment after another, with very few exceptions (Andor. But it was a fail on views anyway). Best to do with current American entertainment, is either check back what was shown years back and was fun and entertaining, or go to other means to get entertainment from other countries or mediums.
The idea of Feige being spread too thinly never made sense. It assumes the MCU could be successfully pivoted into a female property if only Feige had a lighter calendar. That's akin to believing a cruise liner could also be a bulk carrier if its cargo capacity were increased.
Lauren Chen has a very good video explaining why women have mostly ruined movies. Including Kathleen Kennedy and the prominent failing of The Marvel's. She had a very strong point that Lego did a poll of boys & girls to discover what they liked in their toys. Boys would play with Batman and actually pretend to be Batman. They're like "Yes that's ME!!" Girls would play with Batman by having tea with him and buying clothes doing girly things like going to the prom. In other words she tries to make the character become her. It's on BlazeTV channel.
What I'm hearing is the same thing we said about thor 4, but at a larger scale - taika/feige unleashed with no check or balance. You'd think it's better but it actually shows all their flaws/issues because nobody caught them.
Just like most authors need both editors... and deadlines. Something similar can be said about a lot of different kinds of engineers, too... they need deadlines... and a limited budget.
I had a favorite female character before the M-She-U. My favorite was Mantis. I loved that she wasn't a badass like Black Widow or Gamora. She was allowed to just be quirky and mischievous. I loved how she felt Drax's grief over his dead daughter, cried and then used her empathy powers to soothe his pain. I miss characters like Mantis, and hate that they have no place amongst the walking, talking "badass chick checklists" of Phase Four and Five.
Deconnick's explanation for Capt. Marvel's motivation compared to Capt. America makes Capt. marvel just like a Supervillian. She's not motivated by doing the right thing, she's basically motivated by bitter resentment towards people. What kind of people think that's better or even a good thing?
That video confirms what more and more people are thinking; Isaac Perlmutter was way more instrumental to the success of Disney in Phases 1-3 than was Kevin Feige. Beginning with Captain Marvel, we saw the real Kevin Feige and his has continued to this day ... SADLY! 😭
I don't know about that, Perlmutter wanted to recast Tony after AoU because he thought RDJ was too expensive and I don't think that would have gone over well.
Might be anecdotal, but I don’t think there was that much demand for Black Widow where toys are concerned. I worked in an arcade during late Phase 1 and most of Phase 2, and we had sold the initial six Avengers as prizes. Black Widow was almost always the last one to sell.
@@TruthTellert63 Her power level is also doesn't make sense. She killed a lot of armoured Centauri with pistols in Avengers 1. In the comics, she's rarely fighting face-to-face & when she has to fight against superpowered beings, she uses technological weapons instead of regular military weapons. You're right, she's the token girl character.
The irony and that scene with She-Hulk, not only is she disrespecting her older cousin who was trying to help her navigate this new ability, she loses control of her emotions while explaining how good she is at regulating her emotions. That was also the episode I was like you know what MCU, I'm done I can't do this anymore.
Well, this explains why the advertising around captain marvel was so bad. An unshackled feige and his people felt they could cry out to the world "the women are here and they are the best!! Move over men!" To which their male audience replied "what's wrong with you? Elevating this chick into the most important character is not what the MCU is about!!" While the movie itself was bland, i do really think the advertising and lead up hate pieces against fans where the most vile part about captain marvel.
No character has ever needed to turn heel as badly as Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel, if they had combined the alcoholism story arc, with something like the Civil War 2 story, Brie Larson would have come out looking like an acting genius.
The movie was merely muddled and poorly-paced, absent Larson's stupid bitchy public persona, it would have been a forgettable, workmanlike entry into the series
This is a great piece. Seeing Feige "unshackled" instantly made me think about Lucas for the prequels. At least George tried to focus on making the films for fans, Feige was catering to lunatics, or was it ESG scores? There must be anotjer element here. Sure the committee and Perlmutter kept him in check, but he was never pushing for woke garbage before Cpt Marvel, and least nothing of that stayed here.
They wouldn't be in such a mess if they kept things balanced. What they failed to understand is that we don't have a problem with female characters. Ripley (Alien(s)), Sarah Connors and Pvt. Vasquez (Aliens) and Lara Croft to name a few. These were well written female characters put along side equally well written male characters. What they've done now is make female characters one dimensional better than everyone else on the planet (the Mary Sue) while at the same time depicting men as bumbling idiotic buffoons who couldn't survive one minute if not for these female characters. That's where one of the biggest issues men have with these movies.
The failure of the MCU is one of hypocrisy and math. The hypocricy is that they chose to believe their view that "the audience wants to see people who look like them as heroes" didn't apply to men, and it would work to glorify their heroines by having them out-perform, and often humiliate or "school", the male characters around them. The math is that they thought by trying to court a minority of the audience, they would end up with something other than... a minority of the audience.
Three dimensional, interesting, flawed, and relatable characters don’t have a race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference. Neither do Mary Sue characters. Diversity authors are making perfect, flawless, and ultimately boring, uninspired representations of themselves into movies and we aren’t impressed and don’t care about them. Characters work if they have to earn their victory and they are tested to their limits. They don’t have to be tested physically, but also mentally, or emotionally. We all struggle and watching heroes overcome their own struggles inspires us and we ultimately root for them, and buy toys, make cosplay, become fans…
I love that movies and video games are going in opposite directions but still have the same result. Movies are going full force on creativity with no business oversight while games are pure business with no creative freedom.
I get what you're saying but in reality the MCU just centralised everything under Feige so it's more business-like than ever. The annoying thing that they have in common is wokeness. All video game stories are outsourced to Sweet Baby now whose entire focus is ESG.
I think a rather important fact is to find in the context around the clip you used where She Hulk is "womansplaining" Bruce. This scene is one of those that a true comic fan would have stopped in its tracks. It makes no sense that she says this to her cousin, when she would know his actual background. It would be like if Elektra called Matt (Daredevil) and entitled while man, knowing full well his background being a poor single parent kid, who lost his farther and ended up disabled (Blind/handicapped). The whole problem with so much of current Marvel seem to be that its made by people that do not actually know or understand the source material, and just pseudo fanfiction all over these established brands. Also I will never understand why She Hulk was not just written by a team of someone from the original Netflix-Marvel crew and someone from an actual success legal show, like Ally McBeal, Suits, Boston Legal etc. It was a show that SHOULD have succeeded, the source material is so good.
As I suspected! The reason for the fall of the MCU when Kevin got rid of Ike Perlmutter and the Marvel Creative Committee with the help of Bob Iger. He got promoted to have more control of all Marvel then promoted Victoria Alonso. Kevin was WOKE all along that he couldn't wait to get rid of all the people who kept him in check. Now he's dug a grave for the MCU which he cannot climb out from. Hopefully South Park will target him and Alonso next!
Small Question, When did Kevin Feige come into the mix of him being the sole reason of MCU Success? When I looked up Phase One or remember when the movies were being released, I never heard of Feige being the reason for success
It was around the same time of the ‘election’ that changed the world. But, the most likely answer is greed. Iger wanted Disney+ to succeed. And made that his priority. Bob Iger wanted the MCU to adapt content for Disney+, and they were trying to build the momentum for the Avengers ensemble, but also handling the momentum from Avengers into Disney+. At the same time, Iger was trying to negotiate with Fox/Murdoch for the various distribution deals for ABC and tying the Hulu deals up. Perlmutter likely wasn’t going to play nice with Iger and Disney+, because he wanted the MCU to remain as movies where he’d get profit and a nice chunk of a billion dollars per movie. Perlmutter wasn’t involved with the Streaming side or the Disney+ side likely as much, so he may not have been involved or given the opportunity.
@@Toliman. I don't have know how Perlmutter would have felt about D+... but it was definitely a multi-billion $ mistake. Dismal sank billions of dollars into D+... and is about to sink many more billions into Hulu, when they should have stuck with using 3rd party streaming services like Prime and NetFlix... which were pure profit for Disney. Of course, that goes back to greed...
Around Civil War, because Perlmutter fought against putting him in the movie and wanted to dump RDJ all together because he was too expensive and just replace him with some other similar looking actor. Feige going to Disney and arguing the point is what got him to have power over Perlmutter. Arguably this was the right call because RDJ/Tony was the heart and soul of the MCU but it also led to Perlmutter's eventual removal (which was inevitable, as everyone hated him because he was a Trump supporter) and gave Feige way too much control then he was suited for.
Ike and Stan Lee were the manly glue holding the MCU together till end game. Once they were out of the picture. Disney, Kevin, and Bob had their coming out party. It was woke,...it was diversity representation and inclusion. It was a gay drag fest of epic proportion. It was fire island in the 90's. And from it....we have the woke horror and chaos that is M-she-U.
It all seemed so vindictive and self destructive it was almost like they were telling the audience "How dare you enjoy those characters I actively fought against! Now I'll destroy what you love and make millions doing it"
Disney didn't just tarnish the Marvel brand, they utterly wrecked it up to the point that even comic sales are suffering drastically and the legacy, value, status, impact and meaning of its characters is being severely affected. Can the brand recover from such heavy damage? I sure hope so, but that still remains to be seen. If the brand's current state is the price for 10 years of MCU success, then for me the MCU really didn't have to exist. The damage they done to brand up to this point is of such nature it's nigh irreparable and if, I say 'if' they (or hopefully others) ever manage to do so, this will remain as a big ugly scar on the brand forever. Indelible, like a brandmark. This isn't just about one bad and/or hokey movie and/or TV series from before the MCU, this is way waaay beyond everything that preceded the MCU and was deemed bad and/or hokey. This is a real value, status, impact- and meaning kind of brand damage that could- and most likely will have a lingering effect. I dare go as far as to say that Marvel probably can't and never will be the same ever again. The brand has become hollow, bland, a farse, a joke, a bad punchline, etc. and a tool for overly political correctness propaganda. Yeah, if that is the price for 10 years of MCU success, for me the MCU really didn't have to exist. th-cam.com/video/hw3Krn-gUL0/w-d-xo.html
Sometimes I get so used to Andre's accent that I forget he's Scandinavian. But then he comes out with a video like this and blindsides me with his pronunciation of 'committee." I though he was saying 'comedy' until I looked at the screen. But, seriously, this a neat angle for a video. Who knew a mere toy-executive could have had such an insightful grasp of storytelling? ...Well, besides anyone who grew up watching cartoons in the 80's...
What happened to Harrison Ford (2 times) and Mark Hamill was the 3 things that's made me drop anything related to DIS as if it's a hot radioactive brick.
I always thought that Perlmutter was in charge of the Netflix shows, with Feige responsible for the movies... and that they had very, very little to do with each other. Also, Perlmutter critics were very pleased with the blunder that was the Inhumans.
He indeed was in charge of Marvel TV, not just the Netflix shows but the ones airing on ABC. In interviews, the movie people stated that they did not consider these shows canon. The female-led Agent Carter and diversely-cast Agents of S.H.E.I.L.D. were created under Perlmutter. AOS resurrected Agent Coulson and Joss Whedon said that as far as he's concerned Coulson was still dead.
I'm surprise by how much people enjoyed season 1. I'm really not a fan of how they nerfed and changed Loki, turning him into a simp for his own female version
Your editorials are the best. I could not understand why things were off with the things I loved. Your Star Trek editorial years ago explained it. THIS explains how and when Marvel started being off.
Marvel's Creative COMMITTEE. Sorry Andre, I just couldn't figure out that third word until I saw it written in one of the video's images. "Committee" is clearly a French word but the pronunciation got butchered on its way into English, because we say it with the accent on the second to last syllable in the usual English style, rather than with the stress on the last syllable as with most French words.
@MidnightsEdge, This information should be shouted from the rooftops. Please share this with other TH-camrs so they can help spread the word. I had no idea that this was how Marvel has crumbled over the years, after watching your well made video, it all makes sense. Hopefully the current Disney dictators are removed, replaced with a competent team, and reinstate a checks and balances group that help maintain the artistic integrity of the comics.
Props for crediting Gary from Nerdrotic for being the first to coin the phrase 'the M-She-U', I remember laughing my ass off when he first said that, because unfortunately it was true. In a similar fashion, whether you like or hate him, I'm pretty sure the first person I ever heard say the now infamous 'Go woke, go broke' line was Jeremy from TheQuartering.
While I'd agree that there'd be little demand for Carol Danvers' Captain Marvel toy, the same cannot be said for her version of Ms. Marvel (Warbird), who, if I'm not mistaken, was the version of her character that has appeared the most in comic books and even cartoons. I personally think Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel is the most popular version of her, and her latest Marvel Legends toy (way back in 2014) was well worth the wait, and is still sought-after. The fact that Kamala Khan's costume apes the Warbird costume is obvious proof.
Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel was too sexy and feminine. When she became Captain Marvel they gave her a less "politically incorrect" costume, gave her short hair, made a point of flattening any curves on her body and gave her Buzz Aldrin's personality. In other words Marvel Comics idea of a popular female superhero is one who is basically a man.
It's important to stress that the key to success is balance of power between creative and marketing, there are plenty of horror stories of marketing sectors, mad with power, running huge companies into the ground because they think they can do no wrong.
Marvel now just feels like a giant work of spite from Fiege and all the morons he hired. He was mad that he had to keep listening to the committee and rather than go with popular female characters from the comics, went with unpopular failed characters from writers who were also spiteful that Marvel was successful with its male heroes. The best stuff we've gotten (GOTG 3, No Way Home, Loki) were mostly done because of passion for the stories Spite can't carry on forever and eventually, they're now just left with a mess because they don't know what they're doing
I hate that clip of She-hulk for so many reasons. Many that have been pointed out by many people. But one I never see pointed out. There is a misunderstanding of "controlling anger" which is to get angry but not allowed to lead your actions. Vs "not getting angry" sometimes what you need to learn is not to get angry about stupid things. To put it simply with an example. Chewing loudly. Some people, it doesn't bother them at all or don't even noticed. And so they aren't emotionally affected by it in now way. While others get very bothered by it. Some might get extremely angry, and even if they aren't standing and braking a chair on you so you stop. Doesn't make them less angry, they are just controlling themselves. One is controlling his anger, the other isn't even getting angry. IF she really gets angry about all those things. She need some retrospect and not allowed for so many external factors to control her emotions. Even if she is doing a good job at controlling her actions. She is clearly not controlling her emotions. 2 different things. And been annoyed and angry are two different things also.
Let's look at what happened to the original 6 Avengers that became so popular. Iron Man after briefly gaining a happy family life with Pepper and their daughter Morgon, dies in an only slightly better way than Luke Skywalker who died from overusing the Force and I am both laughing and crying over that stupidity! Captain America seems to have lost all character progression and failed to move on from the past instead choosing to travel back in time and live with Peggy Carter, not sure how that effects the timeline by the way but Steve Rogers is now either dead of old age or too old to fight again anyway... Hulk has become weak, hates violence, gets mocked even by his own cousin and has an offscreen son with a bad haircut... Thor was made fat, lost his Kingdom, repeatedly upstaged by women and saddled with an amazing adopted daughter who will likely upstage him going forward not that I care about his character anymore... Black Widow was killed off in a stupid way then given a prequel that did not matter at all and if anything made her character arc much stupider! Hawkeye was upstaged and disgraced in a show with his name on it... I could go on but yeah they killed and or disgraced every main character and trying to replace them with diverse mostly female replacements that are unlikeable has not been working well and interest in Marvel is probably now lower than before the first Iron Man movie and I do not see any way to fix it from this point just like Star Wars... In short, get Woke go Broke, M-SHE-U!!!
Raimi should have been fired the instant he suggested Wanda, their most popular female, be made into a cartoonish villain. Waititi should have been fired the instant he made his pitch for Love & Thunder. The Rick & Morty writers should never have been hired. Marvel should have ignored the entire wretched Bendis era of comics.
When She hulk compares herself to Hulk, who had his best friends die in front of him including one of the few women he's ever loved, but She Hulk got catcalled once...
That's what made the scene so obnoxious. I was expecting Jen Walters from the comics and she would never say such a thing. Instead we got...whatever the hell _She-Hulk: Attorney At Law_ was.
Credit to George Lucas - even without the checks and balances in place, even with whatever missteps can be assigned to him, Lucas still managed to produce products that sold to the intended audience and it remained a juggernaut of a franchise all the same.
Very good editorial. If I may, although granted it might not have been covered by the book, James Gunn pointed out how the same Marvel Creative Committee was a hindrance, as they wanted to remove the now iconic music and the Walkman idea from GOTG VOL 1. Brian Michael Bendis, a once great comic writer who has devolved into a schlocky parody of himself, was on that same committee. I'm very curious to see a list one day of all their good and bad decisions. But ultimately, I agree with your editorial. Checks and balances are important. It's how companies find (or lose) their way.
Note the spin in that very piece though ... Gunn wanted the soundtrack, committee did not. Yet, the soundtrack IS in the movie!!! Why? Because Gunn argued why it was needed, and then the committee approved. Why would they oppose the soundtrack in the first place? Well, look to Suicide Squad, or imagina if Star Wars had a soundtrack! Them pushing against it, is further proof the system was working.
@@MidnightsEdge very good points. Though Guardians came out first which made Suicide Squad look like it was copying them (I still cringe about Suicide Squad getting nominated for best soundtrack or whatever it was. I made better mix tapes in the day.) But yes, I agree the commitee was important in balancing Feige out. I still can't believe Feige pushed for Ms Marvel and Iron heart. Among my maybe 30 geek friends, only 1 of them likes those two characters. I have to agree that neither is very toyetic or has a big fan base. It's like appealing to the smallest but loudest group on Twitter rather than the millions of built in existing customers as you guys pointed out. Overall, good editorial. Been a fan of Midnight's Edge for 3 years now.
I think they should have seriously changed Carol Danvers name to Karen Danvers as Bree Larson says with gritted teeth "My name is Karen". She is a full frontal Super-Karen. Ruthless.
I didn't know what was going on behind the curtains, but since Captain Marvel the MCU has been going downhill. Its at the point where I only vaguely care what's going on. Disney has F'ed all their brands.
I always wonder whether these film studios thought these politically driven race and gender swaps were a narrative they were going to force feed their customers or did they really think this is what the audience wanted.
I had a chat with friends yesterday on a twitch stream. The conversation led us to see that people liked Phase 1 and 2 and the old X-Men movies, and everything after that was more or less homework. NOBODY had anything positive to say about the current MCU, and that was a wide range of people. I really think that the more power Feige had, the less the MCU worked for people.
As covered by your excellent He-man retrospect videos, Marvel made the same mistake Mattel did. They neglected their built in audience and subconsciously made He-man a girl's brand by relying on She-ra to give the kids their He-man fix.
That's why Avatar The Way of Water did so well. James Cameron had his writer's room study extensively why the first movie worked and they made sure they learned all the right lessons before they even started THINKING about writing the next four sequels. And then James made sure they would only make the first two so they performed well in case they needed to pivot.
Excellent as always and you see this in public as well as corporate - any time you hear "self/industry regulation" you know standards/qaulity are going to go down.
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Get your Tee here, while supplies last!
mixedtees.com/MidnightsEdge/SouthPark-KathleneKennedy
Is Kathleen spelled Kathlene for legal reasons?
@@williamlarochelle3160 kinda.
I like that you included a 'Nyetflix' option.
your a crap critic who craps on everything. MCU is strong and your a hater, hater goanna hate.
Marvel didn't "break the fall" of the mcu.
Gather on ME!
Listen to Prem Rawat!
One of my female friends who used to enjoy Marvel (and Star Wars) films said to me that she enjoyed seeing good-looking men being unabashedly masculine. Whereas the current crop of female heroes felt simultaneously pandering and judgemental, while the men all turned into candyasses. (Her words).
Indeed, I haven't see the raw data but I've heard it said that the audience for the Aquaman film was primarily women.
Women love handsome, masculine men.
Your friend has the right of it.
There's a reason Thor types and not Pee Wee Herman clones are on the covers of romance novels.
That's roughly what my wife said too!
She used to follow the MCU religiously, but hasn't really paid attention to anything after Endgame other than WandaVision and Spider-Man: No Way Home
PUT A CHICK IN IT MAKE HER GAY is gonna be a cultural staple for decades
Lol first time I heard PUT A CHICKEN IN IT MAKE HER GAY
@@bentheg9793so did I! (And thought it was just me!) 🤣
@@richardmattocks Its not many people who didnt hear it. I guess you dont watch South Park..... I think 99% of people under the age of 45 have heard of it.
so lesson learned, when Fiege wanted to do something new and different, and perlmutter forced him to do the legwork to prove it was going to work, they had success. When Fiege no longer had to do the work and could just vomit all his bad ideas out without anyone to stop him, that success faded.
Pretty much. Also note that the very issues the Marvel Creative Committe was designed to prevent, are the issues plaguing the MCU now when it's no longer there!
Always two there are, one to crave control and one to harness it.
@@MidnightsEdgething is way too much is spent on those D+ shows. Chill out on that and focus more on the core movies.
@@scruffd0g193 Oh, yes, because the movies are so different; there's Dr. Strange who was... ah side character in his own movie like Loki; now there's The Marvels... a female pandering movie that is nothing but plotholes... like She-Hulk, and Ms. Marvel one of the characters in The Marvels...
Hmm...
What's the difference again?
As a side note, Ike Perlmutter was just at a Trump rally. Based.
That she-hulk clip where she says "If I succumb to my emotions I might get called emotional" makes my brain melt.
Male superheroes’ biggest problems: The end of the universe, the pain of their loved ones in danger, the burden of responsibility
She-Hulks biggest problems: MEN CALL ME EMOTIONAL WHEN I GET ANGRY!!!!😡😡😡😡😡😤😤😤😤😤😪😪😪😪😪😥😥😥😥😥😥
That sort of rant making it into a Disney production makes it clear there are a large percentage of women who simply cannot empathize with men
@@BlairEwing ...or with other women.
It is funny because it shows her getting angry, while stating that she is better at controlling it.
Also, men shouldn't try to control their emotions.
From the look's of it, Ike Perlmutter was a profit oriented but reasonable boss. If you could show him that something will work and make money, he would change his mind. Those are NOT bad qualities for a supervisor.
He was probably more creative then Kevin Feige.
I just realized that I’ve been following this channel for almost 10 years starting with fant4stic. Look at where we are today, crazy times! Thank for ME for all you do in the community
Thanks for being here for the ride! Time sure flies ...
Man, the days of Fant4stic seem so much simpler by comparison.
Talking of Fantastic...
According to Stan Lee, that old Fantastic Four movie was made very cynically.
The studio would have had to relinquish the rights back to Marvel, UNLESS, they did something with the IP.
So, they made a movie at the lowest possible budget, and planned to shelve it, once completed.
The actors knew nothing about these shenanigans, and promoted the movie in good faith for many months.
I’m glad you mentioned Barbie, cause that movie is proof girls love girl things and not masculine superhero franchises staring girls. When they do watch superhero movies it’s to see the men being the heroes, women are attracted to it. Thats just in their biology.
I also think that the audiences are VERY different, albeit with some overlap.
@@Nyet-Zdyes absolutely.. but marvel is trying to appeal to the female audience that loves more feminine stuff like the Barbie movie.
@@SombreroBeanieHat I agree that that is EXACTLY what Marvel is trying to do... and they MIGHT be able to do it... but they'll lose the majority of their male audience, and most likely the vast majority of toy sales, too.
IMO, they can have one or the other, but not both.
We have different genres of ALL art forms for a reason... because nothing appeals to everyone.
@@Nyet-Zdyes agreed man!
Please don’t lump all girls into likely the shit that was Barbie…
My general opinion is that Marvel movies can’t write good female characters. I’ve recently revisited Attack on Titan and Mikasa, Annie, and Historia are amazing female characters. Heck want to throw non-binary in there look at Hange; amazing character who while yes is female in the anime in the manga their gender is supposed to be unclear. Outside of AOT Nami and Robin in One Piece are amazing. Seven Deadly Sins and it’s sequel has Diane, Elizabeth, Merlin, Anne, and Gawain who again are great.
They have their own stories, motivations, and personalities and guess what all the girl characters I listed here can fight and in their series are heroes/villains.
You guys CRUSHED this one. Fantastic video!
If the MCU ever became as great and successful as it used to be, it would be one of the most remarkable and amazing comebacks of all time. You can only dream.
I can tell you what happened. I called it out years ago. Sometime in one of the first three phases, my theory is towards the end of phase two, someone in Disney asked the question, why are they selling all the old Marvel comics and none of the new Marvel comics. It was pointed out that the movies concentrated on legacy characters. Then the idea came forward: make the new material about the new characters, dump the old ones. That's the entire reason why they're scrambling. Because they've tried to set up new character after new character and no one is caring. No one is watching. No one is buying.
Then, once there was precident in the Marvel comics, the studio could hide behind that for their crappy creative moves. Meanwhile, longtime Marvel fans were lighting them up for the changes in the comics (whether they were repping "Comicsgate" or not), and had intermittent cover in some form from the likes of Comicstorian and NerdSync, and others. They thought this would work...
I think it is wrong to think that new characters are unsellable. It is just that bad ones are. The ones created by political activists for political reasons
@Shineinpoverty which just so happens to be most of the newer characters 😂
@@Shineinpoverty Yeah. Anyone who had any knowledge of the history of the comic-book characters would have known this.
Sure, the best selling characters are old ... but they were all new at some time, and there is A LOT of old characters that never became that popular.
Carol Danvers is an "old" character, but she has NEVER sold well. She-Hulk, is also an old character, but she DID sell well and was popular by both male and female readers.
But her show tanked! Meanwhile, the Guardians of the Galaxy were never super popular, but their films made them the second most popular team in the MCU, right behind the Avengers themselves.
So it should be clear that it does not make all the difference if a character is old, or new, or their comics were popular or no ... what matters is QUALITY!
Iron Man was never the most popular Marvel hero ... but if the right director, has the right script, and the right actor ... he can launch a franchise worth BILLIONS!!!
... and putting a chick in it an making her lame and gay will destroy that same franchise.
Theur logic was: "Movies feed off popular comic characters and sell. New movies should feed off old popular movies and sell. New, hated, controversial comics should feed off new movies. Foolproof!"
As a reader of Marvel Comics from the late 80s to 2000s, i was super excited to see the MCU. I was in awe to see some of my favorites don't more accurate with decent budgets vs. the 80s and 90s ventures. What happened after Endgame is the greatest failure of Hollywood of all time. Good job Iger. You managed to destroy the two greatest cinematic franchises of all time. It's amazing. Someone needs to write a more accurate document of the MCU, not this BS.
I think it goes a bit deeper than this. Bob Iger pushed to acquire IPs he thought would mesh well with the Disney brand. He succeeded. Started thinking about retiring and then the Democrats came into power, the "me too" movement was gaining momentum, as well as BLM. And Iger got political ambitions. He started to push for female dominate content to show he was a team player. He also pushed for key staff members who supported this change. He then retired, but kept pulling a paycheck with Disney in case the political thing failed. He then invested his money in outside ventures that didn't play out. Funko being one of them. So the people he left in play became radicalized. They had COVID to explain off all of their missteps. And they had early Marvel and Star Wars success to claim that female and gender changing characters was what the audience in general wanted even if the box office and Disney+ numbers were soft. And because Iger had far too many bad investments he came back .... to praise. But what is the old saying? The Honeymoon was over.
Iger then realized that everything he put in place turned to poo. Disney was bleeding money. He had little choice but to do many of the things Chapek was promoting to save money.
Does Disney have a major purchase on the horizon? Yes they do, but they also have a plan to pay for it. They are selling a majority share of their Indian operations. A group that notoriously under pays for Disney + and are just numbers to present as viable subscribers. But Disney still has to address their brand problems. And to be honest, the damage has been done. Maintenance isn't where it needs to be in the US parks. Movies are under performing. Disney + isn't profitable. Even cruises are under performing. Yes, Disney can stay in the game for years, but their stock price is dropping continuously.
i liked Marvel comics, the movies were good, not accurate but good, personally wish pyrm was in MCU he's the one made Ultron, movies were good up to end game, once company went woke it went to dumpster, plus killing off Ironman and aging Captain america was biggest mistake they ever did.
@@superdave8248Logical, Flawlessly Logical-Spock
It still amazes me that they decided to build the MCU around characters that failed in the comics while also ceasing to adapt stories from those comics. They have *decades* worth of material they already know works.
The most interesting part of this to me is, this is very much what happened to Doctor Who, though on a somewhat different scale. You have Chris Chibnall who was a Doctor Who fan and wrote episodes under the eye of Russell T Davies and Stephen Moffett. Then he gets put in charge of the show, and many have argued that this was due to politics at the BBC, and the first thing he reaches for is “diversity and inclusiveness“. And when he puts all of that into a franchise that had been in general, giving people what they wanted, it fell apart, and he didn’t know what to do, so he dug in his heels until he was removed. I think he and Kevin Fiege stand as reminders of a very simple fact - just because you love something doesn’t mean you understand why it works.
I'm taking away something different from Chibnall's example, and it reminds me of MotU: Revelations. The real creative mind behind it was the executive producer who worked for Netflix, touting himself as a huge MotU fan. Kevin Smith even deferred to him on major plot and casting choices. The problem is that this guy was a progressive authoritarian activist first, and a MotU fan a distant second.
I don't see the failure as "being a huge fan but not getting it". I see it as a failure of "politics and agenda to influence the audience and culture first, and above all else" being the mindset of people like Chibnall, Kennedy, Feige, etc.
@@CloakofAuron you make a very good point here. It’s probably some of both - they definitely got overwhelmed by their politics, but the fact that they felt they could infuse them into shows that didn’t need them also shows lack of understanding of the properties themselves.
Also, I would like to know how politically active all these people were before they got into the positions they’re in. Just so we know if they legitimately believe it all this or if they just reached for what they thought it would get them praise.
Hell, George Lucas created Star Wars and didn't understand it.
I don’t think Kevin was actually a comics fan
Make something appeal to women: It appeals to women.
Make something appeal to boys: it appeals to everyone.
Make something appeal to activists: it appeals to no one.
At least, no one willing to pay... 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Make something that appeals to "everyone": It appeals to no one.*
The same proportion of girls who like "boy stuff" is equal to the amount of boys that like "girl stuff." Problem is, they don't even make "girl stuff" any more.
Speaking in the broadest of generalities, when you try to appeal to boys, you often include a cool love-interest, which can appeal to women and create a love-story under-tone to your action-movie, or a tomboy/action-girl teammate, to appeal to the less stereotypically-minded women in the audience. Or, sometimes, you include both!
Flawless logic
The She-Hulk "emotional" meltdown is of a piece with the America Ferrara "You have to be a mother, but not their mother ..." I'm guessing we're so busy telling little girls they can do everything that we forget to tell them life is hard for everybody and everybody hurts sometime.
Every time I hear Andre say "committee," I hear comedy. That sounds far more appropriate for the MCU.
Yeah, I didn't understand what he was saying until the word was presented on screen. He says "COmmittee", but in America we say "coMMIttee".
the issue is the vowel -- "c-oh" and stressed i for committee instead of "c-ah" and unstressed e in comedy.
Love Andre, love this content, but jfc listening to this
jarring mispronunciation... especially since it sounds like the committee was a very good thing and you're not going for "comedy." Shocked no one in editing or post prod caught this and told him "bro we can't release this you've GOTTA do another take..."
I honestly thought he was saying "Marvel Creative Comedy" until he put it on the screen. "Oh," I thought, "that makes more sense."
As a Disney fan I'm happy that this movie is failing even harder than others. Because I want Disney to go back to telling good stories without a political message. Just good original stories I want to watch.
Original stories aren't the only reason for Disney's past success, Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty are not original Disney stories but were very successful because they didn't have woke crap and girl bosses in them.
Deadpool 3 set for next summer.
Do the Marvel's have a woke message?
I'm pretty sure those days are long gone, myself, I've moved to thought-provoking tv shows and movies from japan. Kevin Feige is a liberal feminist.
That is unfortunately very hopeful, for what they have been constantly showing in so many of the Disney IPs. Be it Star Wars or Marvel, it has been a disappointment after another, with very few exceptions (Andor. But it was a fail on views anyway).
Best to do with current American entertainment, is either check back what was shown years back and was fun and entertaining, or go to other means to get entertainment from other countries or mediums.
The idea of Feige being spread too thinly never made sense. It assumes the MCU could be successfully pivoted into a female property if only Feige had a lighter calendar. That's akin to believing a cruise liner could also be a bulk carrier if its cargo capacity were increased.
This is an outstanding description of what happened to the MCU and where the failures of the M-Shu-U belong.
If the MCU became as successful and great as it was pre 2020, it would be one of the most remarkable and amazing comebacks of all time.
Fantastic summarisation of this historic fiasco. Thank you, Andre, you are the best.
This is outstanding reporting. Hats off to all involved at unearthing the full story here.
Research? Or direct propaganda? Don’t get me wrong, the takeover is probably needed.
Lauren Chen has a very good video explaining why women have mostly ruined movies. Including Kathleen Kennedy and the prominent failing of The Marvel's.
She had a very strong point that Lego did a poll of boys & girls to discover what they liked in their toys. Boys would play with Batman and actually pretend to be Batman. They're like "Yes that's ME!!" Girls would play with Batman by having tea with him and buying clothes doing girly things like going to the prom. In other words she tries to make the character become her.
It's on BlazeTV channel.
To be more precise, boys become the character. Girls make the character themselves.
It's the difference between 'I am Batman' versus 'Barbie is me'.
@TheresaMayPM Yes more concisely!
Lauren "I'm not like other girls" Chen
Boys try to "walk a mile in Batman's boots"...
Girls try to make Batman walk in HER shoes...
EVS has also brought up this study.
What I'm hearing is the same thing we said about thor 4, but at a larger scale - taika/feige unleashed with no check or balance. You'd think it's better but it actually shows all their flaws/issues because nobody caught them.
Just like most authors need both editors... and deadlines.
Something similar can be said about a lot of different kinds of engineers, too... they need deadlines... and a limited budget.
Midnight Edge is the best source of information, been with you guys since the beginning! All these awesome videos would make an awesome documentary!
You rock!
Yes. I stopped watching Eric Vosss since he likes everythint Disney does no mather what. M.E is the best analysechannel for superhero movies
I had a favorite female character before the M-She-U. My favorite was Mantis. I loved that she wasn't a badass like Black Widow or Gamora. She was allowed to just be quirky and mischievous. I loved how she felt Drax's grief over his dead daughter, cried and then used her empathy powers to soothe his pain. I miss characters like Mantis, and hate that they have no place amongst the walking, talking "badass chick checklists" of Phase Four and Five.
James Gunn actually writes people not check boxes, probably why his is the only post phase 3 movie that is universally liked.
Deconnick's explanation for Capt. Marvel's motivation compared to Capt. America makes Capt. marvel just like a Supervillian. She's not motivated by doing the right thing, she's basically motivated by bitter resentment towards people. What kind of people think that's better or even a good thing?
Sounnds like riri
At least Cap America has a sense of humor
That video confirms what more and more people are thinking; Isaac Perlmutter was way more instrumental to the success of Disney in Phases 1-3 than was Kevin Feige.
Beginning with Captain Marvel, we saw the real Kevin Feige and his has continued to this day ... SADLY! 😭
I don't know about that, Perlmutter wanted to recast Tony after AoU because he thought RDJ was too expensive and I don't think that would have gone over well.
If Kevin Feige wanted to bring in captain marvel the right way, he should have started with the proper Marvell, who was the original.
Black Widow really should have come right after Civil War. I still stand by that.
Budapest.
Might be anecdotal, but I don’t think there was that much demand for Black Widow where toys are concerned. I worked in an arcade during late Phase 1 and most of Phase 2, and we had sold the initial six Avengers as prizes. Black Widow was almost always the last one to sell.
Most people know that it's simply a "token" girlie character, and that, in reality, a 14-year old boy could outfight her. Not much of a hero(ine).
@@TruthTellert63 Her power level is also doesn't make sense. She killed a lot of armoured Centauri with pistols in Avengers 1.
In the comics, she's rarely fighting face-to-face & when she has to fight against superpowered beings, she uses technological weapons instead of regular military weapons. You're right, she's the token girl character.
@@TruthTellert63At least they didn't make her like Rey.....Perfect, Flawless
The irony and that scene with She-Hulk, not only is she disrespecting her older cousin who was trying to help her navigate this new ability, she loses control of her emotions while explaining how good she is at regulating her emotions. That was also the episode I was like you know what MCU, I'm done I can't do this anymore.
I like the she-hulk clip because she gets angry during a regular, calm conversation, whilst saying how she’s SO GOOD at controlling her anger… 😒😒
Well, this explains why the advertising around captain marvel was so bad.
An unshackled feige and his people felt they could cry out to the world "the women are here and they are the best!! Move over men!" To which their male audience replied "what's wrong with you? Elevating this chick into the most important character is not what the MCU is about!!"
While the movie itself was bland, i do really think the advertising and lead up hate pieces against fans where the most vile part about captain marvel.
No character has ever needed to turn heel as badly as Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel, if they had combined the alcoholism story arc, with something like the Civil War 2 story, Brie Larson would have come out looking like an acting genius.
The movie was merely muddled and poorly-paced, absent Larson's stupid bitchy public persona, it would have been a forgettable, workmanlike entry into the series
This is a great piece. Seeing Feige "unshackled" instantly made me think about Lucas for the prequels. At least George tried to focus on making the films for fans, Feige was catering to lunatics, or was it ESG scores? There must be anotjer element here. Sure the committee and Perlmutter kept him in check, but he was never pushing for woke garbage before Cpt Marvel, and least nothing of that stayed here.
And here we are... With The Marvels set to open at $35-$40 million this weekend. Enjoy the fruits of your labor Disney, you deserve it
If the MCU became as great and successful as it used to be it would be one of the most remarkable and amazing comebacks of all time.
They wouldn't be in such a mess if they kept things balanced. What they failed to understand is that we don't have a problem with female characters. Ripley (Alien(s)), Sarah Connors and Pvt. Vasquez (Aliens) and Lara Croft to name a few. These were well written female characters put along side equally well written male characters. What they've done now is make female characters one dimensional better than everyone else on the planet (the Mary Sue) while at the same time depicting men as bumbling idiotic buffoons who couldn't survive one minute if not for these female characters. That's where one of the biggest issues men have with these movies.
Precisely
The failure of the MCU is one of hypocrisy and math. The hypocricy is that they chose to believe their view that "the audience wants to see people who look like them as heroes" didn't apply to men, and it would work to glorify their heroines by having them out-perform, and often humiliate or "school", the male characters around them. The math is that they thought by trying to court a minority of the audience, they would end up with something other than... a minority of the audience.
Three dimensional, interesting, flawed, and relatable characters don’t have a race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference. Neither do Mary Sue characters. Diversity authors are making perfect, flawless, and ultimately boring, uninspired representations of themselves into movies and we aren’t impressed and don’t care about them.
Characters work if they have to earn their victory and they are tested to their limits. They don’t have to be tested physically, but also mentally, or emotionally. We all struggle and watching heroes overcome their own struggles inspires us and we ultimately root for them, and buy toys, make cosplay, become fans…
Well said.... Honestly I never felt less welcome anywhere more than I do in the MCU. That place used to be my home too. Great video love this channel
Andre's mispronunciation of "committee" makes it sound like he's saying "Marvel Creative Comedy". lol
The Marvel Creative Committee was replaced by Kevin's Bad Comedy.
Excellent breakdown as usual great job.
I love that movies and video games are going in opposite directions but still have the same result. Movies are going full force on creativity with no business oversight while games are pure business with no creative freedom.
I get what you're saying but in reality the MCU just centralised everything under Feige so it's more business-like than ever. The annoying thing that they have in common is wokeness. All video game stories are outsourced to Sweet Baby now whose entire focus is ESG.
Sounds like the MCU needed both Ike and Kevin to check each other which gave us the best possible outcome of the MCU.
I will NEVER forget Disney for She-Hulk an ACTUAL STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER!
Every time I think about it I want to turn green and destroy things 😡
I think a rather important fact is to find in the context around the clip you used where She Hulk is "womansplaining" Bruce. This scene is one of those that a true comic fan would have stopped in its tracks. It makes no sense that she says this to her cousin, when she would know his actual background. It would be like if Elektra called Matt (Daredevil) and entitled while man, knowing full well his background being a poor single parent kid, who lost his farther and ended up disabled (Blind/handicapped). The whole problem with so much of current Marvel seem to be that its made by people that do not actually know or understand the source material, and just pseudo fanfiction all over these established brands. Also I will never understand why She Hulk was not just written by a team of someone from the original Netflix-Marvel crew and someone from an actual success legal show, like Ally McBeal, Suits, Boston Legal etc. It was a show that SHOULD have succeeded, the source material is so good.
Part of the problem is exactly that they tried to make it about her legal career, which had zero relevance in the comics to her character.
Great distillation of the downfall of Marvel. They can no longer hide behind their toxic fan rhetoric.
As I suspected! The reason for the fall of the MCU when Kevin got rid of Ike Perlmutter and the Marvel Creative Committee with the help of Bob Iger. He got promoted to have more control of all Marvel then promoted Victoria Alonso. Kevin was WOKE all along that he couldn't wait to get rid of all the people who kept him in check. Now he's dug a grave for the MCU which he cannot climb out from. Hopefully South Park will target him and Alonso next!
Bob Iger: The Common Denominator
Small Question, When did Kevin Feige come into the mix of him being the sole reason of MCU Success? When I looked up Phase One or remember when the movies were being released, I never heard of Feige being the reason for success
IIRC, they started giving Feige all the credit at about the same time that they got rid of Perlmutter and the Marvel creative committee....
It was around the same time of the ‘election’ that changed the world. But, the most likely answer is greed. Iger wanted Disney+ to succeed. And made that his priority.
Bob Iger wanted the MCU to adapt content for Disney+, and they were trying to build the momentum for the Avengers ensemble, but also handling the momentum from Avengers into Disney+.
At the same time, Iger was trying to negotiate with Fox/Murdoch for the various distribution deals for ABC and tying the Hulu deals up.
Perlmutter likely wasn’t going to play nice with Iger and Disney+, because he wanted the MCU to remain as movies where he’d get profit and a nice chunk of a billion dollars per movie. Perlmutter wasn’t involved with the Streaming side or the Disney+ side likely as much, so he may not have been involved or given the opportunity.
@@Toliman. I don't have know how Perlmutter would have felt about D+... but it was definitely a multi-billion $ mistake.
Dismal sank billions of dollars into D+... and is about to sink many more billions into Hulu, when they should have stuck with using 3rd party streaming services like Prime and NetFlix... which were pure profit for Disney.
Of course, that goes back to greed...
Around Civil War, because Perlmutter fought against putting him in the movie and wanted to dump RDJ all together because he was too expensive and just replace him with some other similar looking actor. Feige going to Disney and arguing the point is what got him to have power over Perlmutter. Arguably this was the right call because RDJ/Tony was the heart and soul of the MCU but it also led to Perlmutter's eventual removal (which was inevitable, as everyone hated him because he was a Trump supporter) and gave Feige way too much control then he was suited for.
@@bob1986oh Trump Supporter: Kryptonite for one working in Hollywood
Iger does not keep his word. A man who does not keep his word is worthless.
Ike and Stan Lee were the manly glue holding the MCU together till end game.
Once they were out of the picture. Disney, Kevin, and Bob had their coming out party. It was woke,...it was diversity representation and inclusion. It was a gay drag fest of epic proportion. It was fire island in the 90's. And from it....we have the woke horror and chaos that is M-she-U.
It all seemed so vindictive and self destructive it was almost like they were telling the audience "How dare you enjoy those characters I actively fought against! Now I'll destroy what you love and make millions doing it"
Disney didn't just tarnish the Marvel brand, they utterly wrecked it up to the point that even comic sales are suffering drastically and the legacy, value, status, impact and meaning of its characters is being severely affected. Can the brand recover from such heavy damage? I sure hope so, but that still remains to be seen.
If the brand's current state is the price for 10 years of MCU success, then for me the MCU really didn't have to exist. The damage they done to brand up to this point is of such nature it's nigh irreparable and if, I say 'if' they (or hopefully others) ever manage to do so, this will remain as a big ugly scar on the brand forever.
Indelible, like a brandmark. This isn't just about one bad and/or hokey movie and/or TV series from before the MCU, this is way waaay beyond everything that preceded the MCU and was deemed bad and/or hokey. This is a real value, status, impact- and meaning kind of brand damage that could- and most likely will have a lingering effect.
I dare go as far as to say that Marvel probably can't and never will be the same ever again. The brand has become hollow, bland, a farse, a joke, a bad punchline, etc. and a tool for overly political correctness propaganda. Yeah, if that is the price for 10 years of MCU success, for me the MCU really didn't have to exist. th-cam.com/video/hw3Krn-gUL0/w-d-xo.html
Excellent job really well-researched
Sometimes I get so used to Andre's accent that I forget he's Scandinavian. But then he comes out with a video like this and blindsides me with his pronunciation of 'committee." I though he was saying 'comedy' until I looked at the screen.
But, seriously, this a neat angle for a video. Who knew a mere toy-executive could have had such an insightful grasp of storytelling? ...Well, besides anyone who grew up watching cartoons in the 80's...
6:36
Oh!!! Committee! I thought Andre was saying the Marvel Creative Comedy.
When Han got run through by a light saber and died cause he wasn't a girl-boss? That was the moment...possibly everything died.
What happened to Harrison Ford (2 times) and Mark Hamill was the 3 things that's made me drop anything related to DIS as if it's a hot radioactive brick.
This is a great video, but I seriously chuckled a bit when "committee" sounded like "comedy" to me. No need to apologize for that.
I always thought that Perlmutter was in charge of the Netflix shows, with Feige responsible for the movies... and that they had very, very little to do with each other. Also, Perlmutter critics were very pleased with the blunder that was the Inhumans.
He indeed was in charge of Marvel TV, not just the Netflix shows but the ones airing on ABC. In interviews, the movie people stated that they did not consider these shows canon. The female-led Agent Carter and diversely-cast Agents of S.H.E.I.L.D. were created under Perlmutter. AOS resurrected Agent Coulson and Joss Whedon said that as far as he's concerned Coulson was still dead.
Dear GOD, THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME!! That little skit from Tom had me in stitches haha.
It is hard to believe anyone watched Loki 2 after season one.
I'm surprise by how much people enjoyed season 1. I'm really not a fan of how they nerfed and changed Loki, turning him into a simp for his own female version
@@Hanoua2Exactly. Not the Loki we all.loved in the movies. I at a loss of why Tom Hiddleton sign up for this crap. He's that hard up for $$?
Loki is amazing. Best thing out of marvel in years.
Your editorials are the best. I could not understand why things were off with the things I loved. Your Star Trek editorial years ago explained it. THIS explains how and when Marvel started being off.
Marvel's Creative COMMITTEE. Sorry Andre, I just couldn't figure out that third word until I saw it written in one of the video's images. "Committee" is clearly a French word but the pronunciation got butchered on its way into English, because we say it with the accent on the second to last syllable in the usual English style, rather than with the stress on the last syllable as with most French words.
That She-hulk monologue always makes me cringe. It's wouldn't even make the podium at the victims olympic.
I had to turn on captions to figure out Andre was saying "creative committee" because it sounded like he was saying "creative comma team."
The best editorial on the subject. RIP MCU.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the most anticipated... And it was worth it. Perfection!
Fantastic vid, very informative.
Glad it was helpful!
It’s sooo grateful for this channel!
Everyone forgot how Disney buried Jim Handsons Muppets when they brought the Muppets back in 1990.
"and you shall know them by their deeds." how true. diss-ney is their own worst enemy.
Can someone please tell Andre how to say 'committee', I hadn't a clue what he was saying until that phrase was on screen ;-).
@MidnightsEdge, This information should be shouted from the rooftops. Please share this with other TH-camrs so they can help spread the word. I had no idea that this was how Marvel has crumbled over the years, after watching your well made video, it all makes sense.
Hopefully the current Disney dictators are removed, replaced with a competent team, and reinstate a checks and balances group that help maintain the artistic integrity of the comics.
Props for crediting Gary from Nerdrotic for being the first to coin the phrase 'the M-She-U', I remember laughing my ass off when he first said that, because unfortunately it was true. In a similar fashion, whether you like or hate him, I'm pretty sure the first person I ever heard say the now infamous 'Go woke, go broke' line was Jeremy from TheQuartering.
While I'd agree that there'd be little demand for Carol Danvers' Captain Marvel toy, the same cannot be said for her version of Ms. Marvel (Warbird), who, if I'm not mistaken, was the version of her character that has appeared the most in comic books and even cartoons.
I personally think Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel is the most popular version of her, and her latest Marvel Legends toy (way back in 2014) was well worth the wait, and is still sought-after. The fact that Kamala Khan's costume apes the Warbird costume is obvious proof.
Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel was too sexy and feminine. When she became Captain Marvel they gave her a less "politically incorrect" costume, gave her short hair, made a point of flattening any curves on her body and gave her Buzz Aldrin's personality. In other words Marvel Comics idea of a popular female superhero is one who is basically a man.
It's important to stress that the key to success is balance of power between creative and marketing, there are plenty of horror stories of marketing sectors, mad with power, running huge companies into the ground because they think they can do no wrong.
Marvel now just feels like a giant work of spite from Fiege and all the morons he hired. He was mad that he had to keep listening to the committee and rather than go with popular female characters from the comics, went with unpopular failed characters from writers who were also spiteful that Marvel was successful with its male heroes. The best stuff we've gotten (GOTG 3, No Way Home, Loki) were mostly done because of passion for the stories
Spite can't carry on forever and eventually, they're now just left with a mess because they don't know what they're doing
Fantastic work, outstanding!!! Loved it.
I hate that clip of She-hulk for so many reasons. Many that have been pointed out by many people. But one I never see pointed out. There is a misunderstanding of "controlling anger" which is to get angry but not allowed to lead your actions. Vs "not getting angry" sometimes what you need to learn is not to get angry about stupid things. To put it simply with an example. Chewing loudly. Some people, it doesn't bother them at all or don't even noticed. And so they aren't emotionally affected by it in now way. While others get very bothered by it. Some might get extremely angry, and even if they aren't standing and braking a chair on you so you stop. Doesn't make them less angry, they are just controlling themselves. One is controlling his anger, the other isn't even getting angry.
IF she really gets angry about all those things. She need some retrospect and not allowed for so many external factors to control her emotions. Even if she is doing a good job at controlling her actions. She is clearly not controlling her emotions. 2 different things. And been annoyed and angry are two different things also.
Let's look at what happened to the original 6 Avengers that became so popular. Iron Man after briefly gaining a happy family life with Pepper and their daughter Morgon, dies in an only slightly better way than Luke Skywalker who died from overusing the Force and I am both laughing and crying over that stupidity!
Captain America seems to have lost all character progression and failed to move on from the past instead choosing to travel back in time and live with Peggy Carter, not sure how that effects the timeline by the way but Steve Rogers is now either dead of old age or too old to fight again anyway...
Hulk has become weak, hates violence, gets mocked even by his own cousin and has an offscreen son with a bad haircut...
Thor was made fat, lost his Kingdom, repeatedly upstaged by women and saddled with an amazing adopted daughter who will likely upstage him going forward not that I care about his character anymore...
Black Widow was killed off in a stupid way then given a prequel that did not matter at all and if anything made her character arc much stupider!
Hawkeye was upstaged and disgraced in a show with his name on it...
I could go on but yeah they killed and or disgraced every main character and trying to replace them with diverse mostly female replacements that are unlikeable has not been working well and interest in Marvel is probably now lower than before the first Iron Man movie and I do not see any way to fix it from this point just like Star Wars... In short, get Woke go Broke, M-SHE-U!!!
Raimi should have been fired the instant he suggested Wanda, their most popular female, be made into a cartoonish villain.
Waititi should have been fired the instant he made his pitch for Love & Thunder.
The Rick & Morty writers should never have been hired.
Marvel should have ignored the entire wretched Bendis era of comics.
When She hulk compares herself to Hulk, who had his best friends die in front of him including one of the few women he's ever loved, but She Hulk got catcalled once...
That's what made the scene so obnoxious. I was expecting Jen Walters from the comics and she would never say such a thing. Instead we got...whatever the hell _She-Hulk: Attorney At Law_ was.
Credit to George Lucas - even without the checks and balances in place, even with whatever missteps can be assigned to him, Lucas still managed to produce products that sold to the intended audience and it remained a juggernaut of a franchise all the same.
Lucas didnt need any reminders to be toyetic, or about who the audience were. Feige did.
Very good editorial. If I may, although granted it might not have been covered by the book, James Gunn pointed out how the same Marvel Creative Committee was a hindrance, as they wanted to remove the now iconic music and the Walkman idea from GOTG VOL 1. Brian Michael Bendis, a once great comic writer who has devolved into a schlocky parody of himself, was on that same committee. I'm very curious to see a list one day of all their good and bad decisions. But ultimately, I agree with your editorial. Checks and balances are important. It's how companies find (or lose) their way.
Note the spin in that very piece though ... Gunn wanted the soundtrack, committee did not. Yet, the soundtrack IS in the movie!!!
Why? Because Gunn argued why it was needed, and then the committee approved.
Why would they oppose the soundtrack in the first place? Well, look to Suicide Squad, or imagina if Star Wars had a soundtrack! Them pushing against it, is further proof the system was working.
@@MidnightsEdge very good points. Though Guardians came out first which made Suicide Squad look like it was copying them (I still cringe about Suicide Squad getting nominated for best soundtrack or whatever it was. I made better mix tapes in the day.) But yes, I agree the commitee was important in balancing Feige out. I still can't believe Feige pushed for Ms Marvel and Iron heart. Among my maybe 30 geek friends, only 1 of them likes those two characters. I have to agree that neither is very toyetic or has a big fan base. It's like appealing to the smallest but loudest group on Twitter rather than the millions of built in existing customers as you guys pointed out. Overall, good editorial. Been a fan of Midnight's Edge for 3 years now.
Sounds like the MCU needed both Ike and Kevin to check each other which gave us the best possible outcome of the MCU.
I think they should have seriously changed Carol Danvers name to Karen Danvers as Bree Larson says with gritted teeth "My name is Karen". She is a full frontal Super-Karen. Ruthless.
Iger promised one thing then (before the ink dried on the contract) changed his mind...what future purchase of his have we heard THAT before...
I didn't know what was going on behind the curtains, but since Captain Marvel the MCU has been going downhill. Its at the point where I only vaguely care what's going on. Disney has F'ed all their brands.
Andre: "Come on, Tom, be serious."
Tom: "Sorry."
🤣🤣
They fixed it in post........ after 4 months of reshoots.
Your analysis of this issue is remarkable.!
I always wonder whether these film studios thought these politically driven race and gender swaps were a narrative they were going to force feed their customers or did they really think this is what the audience wanted.
I had a chat with friends yesterday on a twitch stream.
The conversation led us to see that people liked Phase 1 and 2 and the old X-Men movies, and everything after that was more or less homework. NOBODY had anything positive to say about the current MCU, and that was a wide range of people. I really think that the more power Feige had, the less the MCU worked for people.
Fantastic video. This is why I am so glad to be subscribed to this channel.
Much appreciated!
As covered by your excellent He-man retrospect videos, Marvel made the same mistake Mattel did. They neglected their built in audience and subconsciously made He-man a girl's brand by relying on She-ra to give the kids their He-man fix.
So well stated, but unfortunately, no one at Disney will see this or understand it. Sigh ...and the downfall continues.
That's why Avatar The Way of Water did so well. James Cameron had his writer's room study extensively why the first movie worked and they made sure they learned all the right lessons before they even started THINKING about writing the next four sequels. And then James made sure they would only make the first two so they performed well in case they needed to pivot.
Amazing video, you really helped me learn how my favorite franchise was ruined and who was behind it. Great upload. Thank you.
That's why we love you, Andre. Good work!
Excellent as always and you see this in public as well as corporate - any time you hear "self/industry regulation" you know standards/qaulity are going to go down.
This is a great overview about Marvel and the behind the scenes reasons of its rise and decline of this brand. great work Midnight E.
Is Andre trying to say ‘committee'?