Honestly i feel like a fight that would better fit the “hard work vs talent” stereotype would be goku vs vegeta. The fight is fundamentally about how goku who was considered a low class could surpass the level of the elite by training hard and learning from others. Vegeta on the other hand was born into his elite status and believes that he is the pinnacle of power and can’t fathom a low class rivaling him despite probably not doing any training in his entire life. He was simply born with a fighting talent and incredible power because he was an elite saiyan. Edit: this theme would continue through the namek arc as frieza had a very similar mindset to vegeta, but goku did not use the same method to overcome frieza.
People who say vegeta deserves to be stronger than goku because vegeta “trains harder” are so stupid both vegeta and goku worked hard but vegeta literally didn’t train as much before he met goku. They literally said “I’ll show you that any amount of hard work can’t beat a high elite saiyan” or something
Most of the time we see Vegeta only training his physicality and for the sake of forcing himself to be stronger. While Goku also trains his mind and not just his body. Vegeta's training is just inefficient, its not Goku having more talent when training. Manga is changing it up tho with the introduction of ultra ego
The ironic thing is, Naruto as a series was never about hard work in the first place. It has been about the cycle of hatred, changing fate, and the bonds between people since day one. Naruto is one of those series you can use to test someone’s media literacy, and “Naruto is about Hard Work vs Talent” and “Naruto abandoned its main theme” are the instant fail answers.
I think the issue is that Naruto vs Lee happened not too long after Lee vs Gaara, had a similar message, and could be interpreted as "hard work vs talent". What it really was about his class, Neji focus wasn't on how he was superior to naruto due to his talent, it was on how both of them were at the bottom. Naruto is an orphan, shunned by everyone. Neji is part of the secondary branch, forced to serve the main branch, never grow as strong as them and die for their sake. The fight wasn't about Naruto overcoming Neji's talent with his hard work because Neji is definitively hard working and naruto is definitively talented, so the message wasn't ruined later on. Because the message was never about Naruto, it was only ever important to Lee, who does keep on being a guy who can't use ninjutsu and genjutsu and who, despite his talent for taijutsu, needs to constantly train to keep up with everyone else, only to be faced by the harsh truth of the world and never give up in spite of that
@@razztastic What about that comment indicates that they think Shippuden is worse overall? If anything, their comment is about how Shippuden didn't get worse because it never did abandon Part 1's themes.
It should be a spectrum rather than a category. Hard work and talent aren’t supposed to be opposing each other but rather working together. That’s how you can become the best in any skill.
@@king_poyo64 Its also stupid think to be mad at. SUperman is strong because earths lower Gravity makes him Strong Lex luthor and batamn train and can never be that strong. Is superman being mean by being strong no he never asked for it or wanted it, he mostly wants to be normal the power is a problem more then a solution
Ya actually main theme of naruto is never about hardwork beat talent It's actual main theme is breaking cycle of hatred, acknowledgement, hypocracy, passing torch, facing reality, love, friendship, humanity and flaw, empathy and understanding broken evil, war and history, enduring, hardworking to not to get consumed by darkness, fate and destiny, maturity and adulthood, realism vs idealism and many other interpretation
@@Job_applicationsaying that after agreeing with this comment is insane. He doesn’t need to win the fight to make the theme work. Even Neji was shaking in his boots watching the fight. Gaara was just unreasonably strong and he pushed gaara unreasonably far
I mean you can kinda get it. The whole point in Naruto is your past and birth doesn't define you. Naruto was a flunking orphan who was hated and had ridiculous dreams, and to prove that wrong he was going to become the hokage. Lee was a flunking kid with no talent and had a ridivulous dreams, and to prove that wrong he was going to become the strongest. Only issue is Lee never got his dream, meanwhile every other character does to an extent. Lee as it turns out was meant to be killed off, hence why Shippunden was so focussed on Guy out of the 2 of them.
@AnonTDegenerate no the whole point of naruto is the cycle of hatred that exist in the world that causes so much pain and how to break that cycles for good, some villains in naruto is just pure evil but most of the time they are broken human that's being hurt by this cycles of hatred yet continued it like pain obito or madara for examples, and at the end when given the order to kill sasuke (continuou the cycle) naruto chose to spare him instead (breaking the cycles of hatred for good) that's what naruto at its core is. the whole hard work vs talent isn't really ever the main point, rock lee lost to gaara and neji saying that you are as good as what you are born is correct, naruto was never talentless, he was a genius, and a reincarnation of ashura.
Honestly trying to say that Goku isn't talented and relies purely on hard work is just outing yourself as being one of the people who starts with the saiyan saga and doesn't watch or read original dragon ball. One of the biggest part's of Goku's character in those early arcs of the manga is how ridiculously talented he is. He learns techniques and grows at an alarming rate and surpasses people like Roshi and Tien who have far more experience than him and who work just as hard. What these people miss is that Goku being revealed to be a "low class warrior" is meant to be a plot twist. We're essentially finding out that our hyper competent protagonist was actually the runt of the litter this whole time and was just sent to a weak planet he could easily conquer. The saiyan arrival is basically when for the first time in his life, Goku has to prepare to fight people who are just as if not more naturally talented than he is, and even then we find out later that Goku was still incredibly talented even by saiyan standards.
Goku is a hyper prodigy, but so is the rest of the cast. Goku's talent stops being a wow factor around King Piccolo tbh. He is absolutely talented, just not by saiyan standards, Vegeta is proof of this even later down the road when he puts his pride down to actually learn things like Goku does. Hyrbid saiyans, Broly, U6 saiyan, yeah, Goku's not too special anymore. Goku has worked so hard in fact his biology literally gave out on him and he stopped getting zenkais in the manga.
Goku zenkais on Namek, had his power lvl get a X5 for just having his ass beat and then he got Super Saiyan. Goku absolutely abuses of his insane genetics, even if he isn't the most talented of his race (that would be Broly).
@@jijidu69 You guys are clearly not looking at the picture properly, at that point goku is literally fights someone born with 120MIL BP, and Goku defeats him after 20+ years of training, calling him "TALENTED" is just wrong, cuz you can only call him talented compared to humans, but when you look at literally anyone else in the series, goku is far behind everyone except maybe vegeta, who is also the same low talent as Goku but keeps training. after the namek saga, every opponent goku faces is more talented or gifted than he is, we later learn that frieza had to train for 2 months to achieve the same results as goku did in 40+ YEARS. The way you compare characters is wrong, you compare Goku in a series with countless of races with the weakest one which are clearly humans, and call him "Prodigy", he is "Prodigy" only compared to those humans, but in the series he is actually lacking talent compared to everyone else, his own son suppressed 4 times in the series without proper training, whole life of goku is literally training to just keep up with others, and everyone else but him just gets their powers out of thin air
Him being talented though isn’t exactly right. All other saiyans besides Vegeta, the u6 saiyans, and half saiyans all didn’t train. Any saiyan can get SSJ.
@@likisus8716 Goku is extremely talented at training, give him one year in the time chamber and he fixes all the flaws of the super saiyan. His base power lvl isn't crazy by the universe standard but it doesn't matter; because he can just train for 40 years and do better than Gods that have trained ultra instinct for eons.
Actually no. While it is unfortunate that he has no quirk and he undoubtedly works hard, pretty much harder than anyone else, him being quirkless allows him to take One For All further than his predecessors. He is, in a way, still gifted.
@@OurDarkGoldenHerohe literally got the power by sheer luck by all might and worked hard to even access most of the abilities ofa gives he’s more hardwork than talent
He got one of the most busted quirks simply because he met All Might and was quirkless yes he put in work to train his body to use the quirk but he only got motivation because he got the most busted quirk its like prmising someone $1m to take out the trash
It really doesn't matter most of the "Hardwork vs Talent" meme is almost always wrong with it only being used to boost a preferred character whilst slandering another character. Not to mention you can't just fit a character in something so simple as "hardwork or talent" because most of the characters would fit in either with how you spin it. Deku is a perfect example as on 1 hand I could say "Well Deku was gifted the 2nd most OP quirk in existence and thanks to him being one of the only quirkless kids he's able to utilize OFA the best" but that's ignoring the other side which will be "He's worked hard more than anyone else in the series and broke multiple bones to do so" Even with characters that most agree with as Talent like Ichigo it's people being completely ignorant of the characters struggles, hardwork and tenacity. Ichigo was just a guy that just wants a peaceful life with his loved ones but is dragged into facing immortal super humans/spirits. He goes through some insane mental and physical training, he nearly dies in his shinigami training with Urahara. If it was just talent to his name he wouldn't of gotten as far as he did. *Overall it's all just rage bait...*
It is hilarious to me that Saitama, one of the only anime MCs who could reasonably fit purely into the talent section, is almost always put into the hard work section. Several characters literally make jokes about his disproportionate rewards for minimal training
I think a disappointing number of one punch fans think him working out till he got bald shows he struggled a lot. Despite it being pretty clear he is supposed to be an unreliable narrator about how hard his own workout was. You ever talk to opm fans about it and they challenged you to do the workout yourself? Like we are suddenly applying real life standards of challenge to the anime where the mc pre training beat a giant lobster man.
@Creepsandwicheater yeah, the joke is that it was kinda hard by irl standards, but even other mid tier heroes think he's joking when he tells them his secret
he did struggle alot tho he broke his limiter from fighting monsters mostly they would leave him near eath like garou and he would grow and grow you legit cant break ur limiter in opm without working hard, it also scales 100 push ups would be nothing for garou but since satima is below avrage it makes it harder for him which allowed him to break his limiter with that
Yup. In the words of Otto Octavious; "Being brilliant's not enough; you've got to work hard." Not only that, many of the best characters don't even know what their talents are until they start working hard. Kazuma Kuwabara, for instance, knew he had a talent for sensing ghosts, but it was only once he started training hard that he was able to produce and refine the spirit sword.
I feel like the thing everyone overlooks with Goku, regardless of talent and hardwork, is that he had the best teacher. The reason Gokus talent continues growing IS the hard work of others. Unlike all the other major aliens humans have no aptitude for ki, but developing it gave them great ki abilities. Goku had the benefit of getting that knowledge from the greatest ki master in history. Even Vegeta, who was so proud of having trained himself, finally beat Goku and it was only after he got ki training from, beerus/whis and that yardrat guy after fighting Jiren. A good teacher is key to taking advantage of talent and hard work.
I think another major thing is passion. Throughout Z (and frankly through pretty much all of super) Vegeta fights to be the strongest. Goku fights for the love of the craft. The difference is that passion about something will take you to heights that no one would expect in a field simply because you enjoy it, irrespective of talent. Trying to be the best is not an invalid goal, but it’s a goal that burns the person as much as the people they try and surpass. In the end it ends up unhealthy and that does impact performance a lot.
adam from ror did the same shit people like him for his spirit . the W is cool and all but thats not all that matters and TBFH the fact his teacher might guy could beat the dog shit out of madara post transformation with both eyes means Lee's potential was more wild then what was shown.
@cliffpaul2483 I mean if we are talking most glazed than popularity is important. The more people who know of a character the more people that could glaze em.
@@cliffpaul2483 Dude, popularity matters in being glazed... so a character in a less popular manga can't be glazed as much.... And Rock Lee, a minor character, has people believing that HIS creed is the point of the entire series.... Think about that for a second. A minor character had people thinking his own personal philosophy was the main point of the series....
It's funny how people say Naruto and Deku get carried by power. Yet, they had to work hard to control the power they had. And for most of the series it was a detriment to them
Not saying Naruto didn’t work hard but apart from before the series started, every time Naruto used kurama’s power it had no significant downsides for him, and at every point it could’ve been a downside/ kurama could’ve been a detriment Naruto was saved by someone else (sasuke beats Naruto at valley of the end in part 1, Yamato stops Naruto after orochimaru ragebaits him, sasuke stops kurama coming out beginning of shippuden, minato prevented him becoming kurama against pain. Imo hes definitely more gifted then most other shounen MCs, but obviously that doesn’t mean he didn’t work hard at some points
@AwesomeJJ. Everytime Naruto used Kurama's power it showed how weak he was mentally and physically. With Haku, it showed how weak minded he was towards the ninja world. With Sasuke, it showed how he didnt understand Sasuke and resorted to brute. And so on a so forth going into Shipudden. There is a reason why Naruto had to overcome his hatred
Naruto is already gifted with massive chakra reserves just for being born an uzumaki even without kurama he would've followed in his father footsteps learned sage mode and still been an insanely strong ninja and he would've figured out a way to compete with sasuke. the 9 tails was just the cherry on top of the mountain of cherries
@wijinsama All uzumaki clan members have large chakra reserves. The toad that teaches naruto sage mode comments on his natural massive chakra reserves and how unlike jiraya who struggled with sage mode ,due to his lower reserves, naruto will have no struggles. This was a big point in the show in fact anyone with low chakra reserves can accidentally get screwed by sage mode and turn to a toad
The worst offender of this BS is when I see people try to categorize Gojo as "talent" and Sukuna as "hard work". The guy who had to be nearly murdered to master his technique is nothing but "talent" vs a guy who had a technique for 5 seconds and instantly figured it out is "hard work". JJK fans are never beating the can't read allegations.
You ever see that meme where it shows Vegeta, Sasuke, and Zoro at the top, and then Goku, Naruto and Luffy at the bottom, and it basically says that Vegeta, Sasuke and Zoro work hard and still fall behind Goku, Luffy, and Naruto who do nothing but slake off and eat? I hate that meme because it completely ignores the fact that Goku, Naruto and Luffy trained as well, and that in the case of Vegeta, he only started training because of Goku.
As saying this as someone who’s favorite Naruto character is Sasuke, and whose favorite One Piece character is Zoro btw (I actually like Goku more than Vegeta though).
Saying vegetas hard work is so funny when his first fight with goku has a nature vs nurture theme and he’s the nature and he’s been consistently stated to be bad at training like what are people on with that take sasuke and Naruto work hard and I don’t know about zoro and luffy
Me too, Goku has trained better than vegeta in the early stages. Vegeta actually has more potential than goku, having less teachers and lessons and manage to catch up and even surpass him. Goku was low class, with only reason he’s better bc he treats his training better than vegeta. Vegeta likes to break his body to the limit, but Goku and his roots says that is just reckless and the body needs resting too. He has better concepts, and that’s why Vegeta in DBS super hero learns this and uses meditation which actually beats Goku due to his now more focused self (Whis also says this is the weakness of Vegeta in RoF)
Deku casually killing himself everytime he uses his power, literally being forced to work himself to the bone just to use it at 5%: "Ermmm, yeah, he's gifted" 🤓 I think i'm gonna crash out oh my fucking God
This is a dragon ball channel. Obviously he will be looking at people like Vegeta or Goku’s training. In fact because Deku didn’t have a quirk he was gifted with other quirks besides OFA. He was gifted WITH the quirks.
All these anime mc have both talent and hardwork. Hardwork can only take you so far. You need to be talented in the first place to reach great heights.
I always had a problem with people putting luffy in the gifted section because those people either never watched one piece or dont know his fruit. The rubber human fruit is literally one of the worst fruits in the series unless awakened. When luffy got it, he had spent 10 years getting it to work right. The only reason luffy was able to be versatile or create his "Gear" forms is because of his creativity. And aside from gear 5, all the gears were made from luffy hard work.
Ichigo never works hard for his abiltiies. His abilities are more understanding himself and his soul more but you can't tell me 3 days of training is "hard work"
@ It's not really training for ichigo as it is understanding his soul. The vizard transformation wasn't training, neither was the fullbringer, ichigo getting his true bankai was a conversation. again the way ichigo gains power is through self understanding and not traditional training that goku, luffy or naruto would do
@ Understanding ones self can be viewed as a type of training. He still physically train with urahara, and yes the visord training is still training since he was sparring for over a month with them. Yes to be fair, a lot of ichigo's "training" was on field experience. And you are right, he doesn't train like them, but saying it's not training is a bit silly.
Calling Goku talented compared to humans is like calling a tiger more talented than a cat. Saiyans are biologically superior to humans. If you compare Goku to other Saiyans, he ain't all that. The only reason Goku became so strong was his mentality and having access to powerful masters. If any other sayian went through the exact training and had the same mentality as Goku, than Goku would be one of if not the weakest saiyan. Hell, when the z fighters trained with Kami, they got way more out the training in one year than goku in 3.
"If another sayain went through the same training and the mentality. Goku would be one of the weakest sayians" That's not exactly true though? Whis trained both goku and vegeta at the same time. Gave them the exact same training and vegeta was just as willing to train as goku. And even then goku was the one that got more with his training than vegeta
Find it funny how people say Naruto is carried by kurama despite the fact that prior to mastering the chakra, Naruto didn’t win a single fight using the nine tails. Even against gaara gamabunta did most of the work.
I could be wrong but without Kurama Haku would've killed him and against Neji without Kurama replenishing his chackra reserves Naruto would've lost that fight so that's false
They don’t mean the Nine-Tails form, they just mean the massive amounts of chakra Kurama passively gives Naruto. It’s the only reason he’s able to constantly spam shadow clone armies at people as his main fight tactic, when the average ninja can only manage 2 clones at best.
I think I much prefer shows where the mc isn't given a super cheat ability that makes it so no matter how hard or smart others work they won't catch up. This is a common trope in shonen either they're born with the cheats ichigo/goku/naruto or they inherit the cheats in the start of the show Deku My main issue is it always sets a big gap between the mc and the supporting cast look at naruto and then compare him to the rest of the verse besides 1-2 people, same thing for goku vs earthlings being a saiyan gives such an unfair advantage everyone gets powerscaled away and they become irrelevant. I much prefer shows like one piece, black clover, blue lock and world trigger because people can actually keep up with our mcs and evolve as well. Well for world trigger our mc has 0 talent and then never gets that talent, he's weak all the way through which I've never seen in anime before, nevermind in a shonen anime
Hardwork vs Talent just exists cause Dragon Ball fans got mad that Superman is super strong and use the "well at least Goku earned his power therefore hes better" bit
As much as I *_hate_* Luffy, he's almost entirely hard working, heck even his power is stupid and shouldn't be much good in a fight, yet he figured it out and made it overpowered through his own sheer will, determination to be the pirate king and years of training..... And yet he's an annoying twerp with minimal regard to anyone who doesn't directly beg him for help half the time. Honestly I think Luffy could've achieved what he did with any Devil Fruit ability... heck he could have made it to where he did with Haki alone like Gol D Rodger, I'd say his only gifts would be his social relations, he knows people or is associated with people in high places, that would be his exception.
Literally EVERY shonen character is mix of hard work and talent. It takes work to learn and use abilities properly no matter how talented you are else you’ll hit a wall eventually, and even if not readily apparent EVERYONE, has a talent or affinity to something that becomes their specialty. It’s the combination of the two factors that makes the whole character.
Not really I am gonna recommend world trigger the mc has 0 talent besides being crafty and creative which anyone else could do and is regularly outmatched
Lonk's upset because someone put Gohan in the gifted category because "potential" is just a BS mcguffin to make irrelevant characters relevant again. Those charts are usually just bs rage bait, but when they are done with honest intentions I have seen that they are usually based on the major source of a character's power, not an all or nothing situation. For example, Naruto is insanely gifted even though he had to work hard to become anything impressive. Son to a hokage and one of the most powerful members of the Uzumaki clan that was renowned for their immense chakra and special sealing jutsus, gifted with half of the Nine Tails (yes gifted, because even when it was a "burden" that messed with his chakra control, it still saved his life constantly), trained by one of the legendary sanin for years (who also trained his father and is also his godfather), part of a team with one of the most impressive ninja (kakashi) in any village to the point that he is known far and wide for his talent, is the reincarnation of one of the most powerful ninja in history, and is the child of prophecy. Yeah he still had to work hard, but he won the lottery several times over and was never really in any position to be called an underdog compared to someone like Sakura, who's only inherent advantage in life being that her parents weren't divorced or dead, and she only got trained by Tsunade because she proved her own worth to her. I'm not a fan of Sakura as a person, but she did make something of herself when she came from nothing, making her a true underdog. It'd be like looking at Arnold and Danny Devito and saying they both have a fair chance at winning against each other in any physical competition.
I love gaara vs Lee as much as anyone else but I can’t forgive it for ruining the anime community’s perception on what talent and hardwork is making it a flat 2d thing like the talented person didn’t also train to live up to their gifts in the first place. If they didn’t it would look like Megumi from jjk but all he does is eat junk food and watch tv.
In dragon ball, Goku's only gifts are transformations. Compared to other people in his verse, he has near to zero talent, he has less potential than even the earthlings, he just knows how to train efficiently
He doesn’t have less potential than Earthlings. His Saiyan DNA gives him the Zenkai boost ability. That shows how powerful Saiyans are compared to above average Humans.
@Maximations2005 he literally does. The earthlings have kept up with Goku by training alone, even though Goku is training with Gods. The earthlings have a LOT more potential than him, and thats just it
@@Yokarblue That makes sense until you factor in the SSJ transformations. I don’t think Humans can keep up with SSJ, they got power creeped. (You could say that Krillin in DBS was able to spar with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, but it was obvious that Goku was massively holding back.)
I disagree with putting Naruto as Talented. Yes he did have the 9 tails fox in him at birth and it made him strong, However You have to remember that Naruto couldn't control it, Kurama would always take control and made him lose his mind, Naruto had to build a relationship, build a bond and a connection with the monster that was inside him. Saying Naruto is talented is Crazy, he had to Tame Kurama. Imagine end of series adult Naruto having no control over Kurama. He would pretty much commit Genocide due to having no control over the beast, Naruto should be in the middle, he is Talented 'However again' he had to put in the work to calm down the beast and build a relationship
Tbh a MC can’t represent either of these, nearly all anime MC’s got really lucky with their talent but train hard or they’re from romance Animes… either way, most if not all fighting or action MC’s are both
@@lonkstakes Lets say Goku is in top 10 strongest fighters of DB, not a single soul in that top 10 except for Vegeta and maybe Jiren, trained as hard as Goku. You can only call him talented if you compare him to humans. Like if average talent could be measured and humans had "1" , Goku would have "5" , but the average talent(gifted number) in the DB verse would be 50-100, thats just because of how close everyone to Gokus lvl without his training experience and methods .
Goku got stronger than any of the ridiculous number of Saiyans since legendary times ever did in the Frieza saga (other than Broly). You think none of them ever worked hard as heck? But he would have died as a kid if he hadn't trained like mad his whole life. He's a heaping helping of both.
Tanjiro always being lumped in talented in these always rubs me the wrong way. Like sure, is he talented to an extent? Yes, but people chose to ignore all the hard work and multiple instances of training that got him to where he is.
From what I understand on what some guy tells me on Touhou, when a character has an ability the ability applies in every aspect you can imagine so Reimu apparently “flies beyond the concept of reality” or something, I need to check what he actually said.
Gonna be honest, the Muffin Spider, Yamame, is enough since Goku has barely any resistance to poison so you don’t have to go that far down Touhou to find someone who can beat him
Asta and Yuno in my opinion perfectly encapsulate Hard Work vs Talent. Black clover spoilers down below! Yuno is Natural Talent due to being the prince of the spade kingdom and being chosen by the four leaf clover grimoire and Wind spirit Sylph, he's a prodigy at using magic, becoming vice captain of the Golden Dawn in under a year. Asta was born without a lick of mana, but he kept training, and training. Even though he was blessed with anti-magic and his swords, he didn't stop, and it paid off, he is one of THE representations of hard work.
The point of stories like goku and Naruto is that they are gifted. With goku it's that he was so gifted roshi struggled to properly train him and with Naruto it's abou how despite being gifted until halfway through the show his life still kinda sucks.
The dude can copy techniques by seeing them once or invent them on the spot while he can't move three of his limbs and he's almost dead; there's some talent there.
Hell yeah this was worth the membership and I completely agree, I always thought those comparison posts were dumb because every character really fits in both
I think it would be really interesting to have a shonen manga where are the main character wants to achieve their goal as much as a person could possibly want to achieve any goal. But simply aren't gifted enough to achieve it to the point of true impossibility. But because of their personality they simply can't give up. Essentially making the story a battle between unstoppable force of will and an immovable object of reality.
I agree that Goku is hard working and talented because of HOW HE WAS RAISED and NOT JUST FROM TALENT. I guess people still didn't watch OG Dragon Ball or that Goku never beats most of the antagonist the first time until he trains hard to beat them.
To me, what ultimately matters is exactly how and why characters use the power they have. Talent gives them power and opportunities to use it, and hard work allows them to refine the power and make it their own (rather than the power making them its own). The “how” and “why” behind a character’s use of their power goes a long way towards helping the audience understand the character along with the greater narrative they’re placed in. And I think a lot of people lose sight of that because they’re more caught up in how characters receive their power rather than how they utilize and/or express it, the latter usually being the more vital part of the story. I think it’s why I’ve seen some folks complain about the “chosen one” trope, putting those characters in the same boat as talented characters and claiming all their hard work and challenges are moot. Sure, there are probably plenty of examples of bad writing not utilizing the trope well, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with the trope itself. Again, what matters is how that chosen/talented character chooses to refine/utilize that power as a reflection of themselves, their goals, and their beliefs, which can/should involve a lot of hard work along the way. So the point isn't how the power got there; it’s where characters choose to go with it.
Honestly, I'm just waiting for a new Shonen series where the main character is truly the epitome of hard work. Like just your normal average joe that wasn't born with some creature inside of them or have some sort of super special powers or is from some special bloodline, or is chosen by some powerful entity, no, just a normal person who is operating on the same rules of everyone elese in that world and is of average talent. Through their own training and creativity, they become the strongest of their world.
In what world is Naruto not hard work? He learned things quickly, sure. But he only managed to do that because he used clones to get years worth of training in days. He still had to do and experience all of that effort to get there, because he remembers everything his clones do. Even his tailed beast powers took years to get to.
Yeah, it really all is. Talent cannot be replicated by effort. Not just Talent, every single good or bad trait we have that we either fault ourselves over or take credit for, is out of our control. Looks, talent, i.q, much of our personality traits are genetic, and yet in 2025 we still have the "bro, just, fill in the blank). Potential cannot be reached without hard work or effort, but ones hard work and reaching ones Potential could be the first floor on the elevator to the person next to you who hasnt even started.
I feel as the whole hardwork beating talent thing in Naruto, while not being a MAIN theme is still very much a theme in early Naruto the garra vs Lee fight isn't the only one that displays this theme. The whole Naruto vs Neji fight is also themed after it. Neji playing as the one with talent against the hard working Naruto ,but themes in stories are always subjective. Sometimes the author doesn't even plan for a theme to manifest, but I feel the Hardwork vs talent was a theme they wanted to implement, but the story they were writing was working Counter intuitive to it so they abandoned the thought. Other than that another BANGER!!
Except the fight quite literally shows that Neji is just as hard working as Naruto is and that the real theme of the fight was how Neji was a hypocrite for talking about destiny and that Naruto won’t become hokage because you have to be born to be one, yet Neji who wasn’t born a main branch member beat Hinata. At the end of the fight Neji even mentioned how Naruto’s words freed him from this ideology.
@ read my comment again. Neji the sidebranch beat the main branch. Hagoromo tells Naruto that his parents aren’t the reason for his success. And Minato’s Parents were also nameless bums, meanwhile minato was at 15 so talented and powerful that he was compared to Hashirama. Meanwhile Naruto at 15 was just starting out in shipuuden against Akatsuki that Sasuke could beat.
It’s not about who is hard working or gifted it’s how they use what talent they have and how to improve them and also to improve what skills they haven’t learned to be the ultimate version of you as one man once said “Work hard, study well, and eat and sleep plenty That is the Turtle Hermit way We must master the art of peace in addition to the art of war”when you have the right mentality you can go ever further beyond what limits you hidden strengths
1:33 you have to presume it’s which camp they skew more two or else it meaningless since most of them weren’t that strong out of the womb 3:53 yea but he skews heavily more to hard work and he’s not talented compared to others in his species
"Hard Work vs Talent" enthusiasts when they see elite born saiyan Vegeta training, multi species Ichigo training, and Cyborg Sentai Prince Sanji training.
The biggest irony is that it's mostly people talking about Jump manga where the editors probably mandate a minimum level of acknowledgement of "hard work" by the MC simply to get published, when there's the entire light novel industry that made isekai where the MC is plopped into a setting and immediately the strongest person in the universe (or if they aren't they can get there with very little effort) into basically the standard.
Saying Goku is talented is wrong, the whole point is just comparing Goku to Humans, the weakest possible race for DB universe, it's like comparing an ant to a dog, but that dog which is goku, actually fights in a world full of tigers, and is actually winning. Just remember that Frieza trained for 2 months(might be slightly off) and got the same power as goku did in 40+ YEARS, there is also Gohan,Piccolo,Cell,Majin Buu, pretty much most of his opponents/rivals are either born just stronger than him or have better genetics. Saiyan genes are not "Talent" they are bare minimum required to actually do what Goku can.
@@plantcrone9662 The hell you mean different levels of talent? You can be talented compared to someone else, and goku is clearly less talented than like 70% of the dragonball cast
@ Literally any character in the TOP who could match Goku in his base form are more talented than him if we forget about saiyan forms, and that's considering how Goku is having best mentors possible actual deities of his universe, and still there are fodder alien races that can match his base form
What's so bad about being talented? Hell Superman the first Superhero is a Talent character and he's the most inspirational character out there using his gifted power to fight for those who can't fight for themselves unlike the hard workers who only do it for personal gain like Deku wanting to be the Greatest Hero, Naruto wanting to be Hokage, Luffy wanting to find the one piece or Goku wanting to fight strong opponents.
Fuck “hard work vs talent”. Let’s focus on “drip vs physique” debates where we compare character designs and/or examine characters to determine whether it’s the fit or the build that makes them THEM
My favorite depiction of this is Zuko and Aang, Zuko’s desperate for the strength to beat Azula and Aang doesn’t want his strength. Zuko works hard but is still can’t solve his problems do to impatience and eventually learns humility, wich is a trait usually associated with his opposite element will Aang often avoids his problems but learns when to confront them and learns responsibility wich is also the opposite of his element.
OMG yes, thank you!!! You don't know how frustrating it has been to see all these posts. It does make me happy that there are also still people out there who can see that "Hard work vs Talent" theme in Naruto is completely wrong. And how using that to describe characters with their journey to their powers and how they got there look squandered and meaningless. I know its not that big of a deal but come on, nobody is just one thing in these kinds of settings. That's completely one note
I've also never understood why people think that Talent is a bad thing. Working hard to achieve something is commendable but for example, just because someone plays the piano better in a shorter amount of time than someone who played it for years doesn't mean that the more Talented person should be seen as lazy or has no grasp of the craft.
fun fact: there is actually a Manhwa called Boxer where there is one character that is ONLY talented and one that is ONLY hardworking; of course, many characters, including the protagonist, are not focused entirely on those-but there are two which are if not three, as there can be argued to be a 2nd person that is only hard working and not so much talented
@@lonkstakes Well I'd definitely reccomend you put it on your watch list. Some call it "for kids" or "cheesy" but I really enjoyed it, and you haven't really lived until you've seen kaiba sacrifice god for his waifu.
I think a better way to encapsulate the Hard Work vs Talent debate is to acknowledge it as a spectrum. That way you can actually speculate which characters have their achievements based more on talent / hard work than others. Take Deku, for example. Deku, imo, would fall somewhere around 50% Talent and 50% hard work, or maybe a 40-60 split. He absolutely trains super hard to master his Quirk, but it’d just be straight up wrong to say that that hard work alone led to his achievements. If Deku had been given any other Quirk rather than the strongest quirk in the series, even with the same amount of hard work he wouldn’t have been able to achieve what he had been able to. Goku would fall somewhere around 35% talent, 65% hard work, because while training hard to overcome brutal odds is basically Goku as a whole, there is no denying that he is just better - both due to his natural genius of training as well as his heritage as a Saiyan - than everyone else around him that trains just as hard, if not harder. A good example would be Vegeta, who trains just as hard if not harder than Goku, and yet struggles to keep up due to being less talented than Goku at the things they do. Yes, Vegeta was naturally stronger than Goku in the Saiyan Saga, but to say that Vegeta is more talented than Goku is would just be a lie. The last one I’ll go into is Yuji, who would be also around 30% talent, 70% hard work since Yuji is the only one capable of eating Sukuna’s fingers without dying (except Megumi, of course) and is the only one able of “Caging” Sukuna instead of being a Vessel. Not to mention that he was gifted with an extremely potent body, and was born as one of Choso’s brothers. Everything on paper points to Yuji being extremely naturally talented, but he puts aside those natural talents instead for extremely hard work: he refuses to let Sukuna out, and he trains despite also having 0 aptitude for Cursed Energy. He spends an entire arc just training. All in all, it’s a spectrum which I think is a lot more understandable than just Black or White
Ok so your issue is you're looking at this too ridgedly. Yes we're saying hardwork vs talent obviously (almost) everyone works hard and (almost) everyone trains. They have to especially if we're talking about the mc because they have to overcome a challenge or your story is boring. What we're looking at is where the crux of their power comes from. For instance if you take away Lee's hard work he's essentially just a guy whereas if you remove frieza's hardwork he's still like top 10 mortals in his verse.
You know I’m annoyed when people just auto say hard work for anything I’d just put them in what they skew to more like their putting jjk characters in hard work when they stated for batum their world is 80% talent
Rock Lee has done WAY too much damage to this side of the anime fandom dude it's so annoying
วันที่ผ่านมา +1
Sanji isnt a talent... not until Wano, but he rejected his blood. And Frieza trained in a time chamber for 10 years, and trained for 4 months. Frieza unironically did more training than Gohan. Gohan trained for the saiyans, 1 year, trained for the andriods if chichi let him, potential 3 years, trained another year for cell, did no more training till dbs super where he did idk how much training but let's just say 1 year. That was after rof where he trained. Then he said he hadn't gotten soft to piccolo, but struggled with weight himself as a kid wouldnt, and even admitted himself slacking off on it after defeating cell max. So Gohan at a max trained for 6 years. But lets just say it was 3 years cause I didn't see it in the andriod saga other than the time chamber.
This debate is stupid partly because almost always the words used do not mean what they actually mean. The actual sentiment is whether a character passes the meme creator's sense of fairness.
İ personally think the debates should revolve around who's more hardworking than talented or who's more talented than hardworking,but even then,it doesnt solve the issues of characters that got the strongest or possibly the strongest power in their verse (Deku,gojo etc.) or characters that have an op ability but it also has a detriment to them (naruto,gaara etc.)
I feel like this argument works best outside of animes. Its probably also the reason why certain debate like goku vs superman were so heated in the past.
Naruto is both a hard worker and a gifted He is gifted 'cause: Insane Chakra reserve Wind Element Kurama's power Talented to learn new no elemental jutsus And he hard worker 'cause: Train for years to control his chakra, only this The Rasengan as a technique is very simple, is just a ball of spinning chakra, but isn't a Junin lvl jutsu for nothing A bad made rasengan can easily just disappears from your hands, or in the worst case just blow up, is a very high chakra control required technique Things like the "big Rasengan" looks simple, because is just a bigger rasengan, but create it and control it to dont blow up it with you is complicated Also, since is just a big chakra ball, it benefits of big chakra reserves The same case with the Shadow Clone jutsu. Naruto struggles doing the Clone jutsu because he didn't now how to control his chakra, then the clone went unstable But hte Shadow Clone has 2 particularities 1. Divides the Chakra of the user in equal parts for each clone, so it's imposible to overcharge it with chakra 2. Since the Shadow Clone requires a lot more of Chakra to be created, Naruto didn't struggle with that Both the Rasengan and the Shadow Clone Jutsu are the perfect techniques for Naruto, and if you pay attention, with the pass lf time, Naruto reach a so higher control over his chakra that he is capable of spamming both techniques with out reat Now, Son Goku Goku is both gifted and hard worker He's gifted because: He is extremely talent at learning skills His genetics (Saiyan) But, we all can agree thath there is no other character more high worker that Son Goku, the only things he does is training
Honestly i feel like a fight that would better fit the “hard work vs talent” stereotype would be goku vs vegeta. The fight is fundamentally about how goku who was considered a low class could surpass the level of the elite by training hard and learning from others. Vegeta on the other hand was born into his elite status and believes that he is the pinnacle of power and can’t fathom a low class rivaling him despite probably not doing any training in his entire life. He was simply born with a fighting talent and incredible power because he was an elite saiyan.
Edit: this theme would continue through the namek arc as frieza had a very similar mindset to vegeta, but goku did not use the same method to overcome frieza.
FACTS
Or Goku vs Frieza
Holup, is bro a time traveller?!
@@harveymarshall404 Channel members get to see my videos early :)
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
People who say vegeta deserves to be stronger than goku because vegeta “trains harder” are so stupid both vegeta and goku worked hard but vegeta literally didn’t train as much before he met goku. They literally said “I’ll show you that any amount of hard work can’t beat a high elite saiyan” or something
Once he does actually learn to train we get pretty clearly told that vegeta just SUCKS at training
@@lonkstakes lonk, you got a timetraveler in the chat 😂
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
Most of the time we see Vegeta only training his physicality and for the sake of forcing himself to be stronger. While Goku also trains his mind and not just his body.
Vegeta's training is just inefficient, its not Goku having more talent when training.
Manga is changing it up tho with the introduction of ultra ego
@@lonkstakesGoku even MENTIONS this in the Cell Saga. Dude legit tells Vegeta: "What you're doing is torture, not training"
The ironic thing is, Naruto as a series was never about hard work in the first place. It has been about the cycle of hatred, changing fate, and the bonds between people since day one. Naruto is one of those series you can use to test someone’s media literacy, and “Naruto is about Hard Work vs Talent” and “Naruto abandoned its main theme” are the instant fail answers.
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
EXCELLENT LONK'S TAKES WORK. HARD WORK VS TALENTS IS STUPID
I think the issue is that Naruto vs Lee happened not too long after Lee vs Gaara, had a similar message, and could be interpreted as "hard work vs talent". What it really was about his class, Neji focus wasn't on how he was superior to naruto due to his talent, it was on how both of them were at the bottom. Naruto is an orphan, shunned by everyone. Neji is part of the secondary branch, forced to serve the main branch, never grow as strong as them and die for their sake. The fight wasn't about Naruto overcoming Neji's talent with his hard work because Neji is definitively hard working and naruto is definitively talented, so the message wasn't ruined later on. Because the message was never about Naruto, it was only ever important to Lee, who does keep on being a guy who can't use ninjutsu and genjutsu and who, despite his talent for taijutsu, needs to constantly train to keep up with everyone else, only to be faced by the harsh truth of the world and never give up in spite of that
So you admit that Shippuden is just worse overall then?
@@razztastic What about that comment indicates that they think Shippuden is worse overall? If anything, their comment is about how Shippuden didn't get worse because it never did abandon Part 1's themes.
It should be a spectrum rather than a category. Hard work and talent aren’t supposed to be opposing each other but rather working together. That’s how you can become the best in any skill.
A tad hard to divide how much someone is between both but yes I agree
Bold of you to think Anime fans are capable of understanding nuance
@@king_poyo64 Its also stupid think to be mad at. SUperman is strong because earths lower Gravity makes him Strong Lex luthor and batamn train and can never be that strong. Is superman being mean by being strong no he never asked for it or wanted it, he mostly wants to be normal the power is a problem more then a solution
I don't get how people get the "hard work beats talent" from Rock Lee vs Garaa?
Rock Lee lost💀
Ya actually main theme of naruto is never about hardwork beat talent
It's actual main theme is breaking cycle of hatred, acknowledgement, hypocracy, passing torch, facing reality, love, friendship, humanity and flaw, empathy and understanding broken evil, war and history, enduring, hardworking to not to get consumed by darkness, fate and destiny, maturity and adulthood, realism vs idealism and many other interpretation
Reading comprehension and media literacy do not exist in the naruto fandom
@@Job_applicationsaying that after agreeing with this comment is insane. He doesn’t need to win the fight to make the theme work. Even Neji was shaking in his boots watching the fight. Gaara was just unreasonably strong and he pushed gaara unreasonably far
I mean you can kinda get it. The whole point in Naruto is your past and birth doesn't define you.
Naruto was a flunking orphan who was hated and had ridiculous dreams, and to prove that wrong he was going to become the hokage.
Lee was a flunking kid with no talent and had a ridivulous dreams, and to prove that wrong he was going to become the strongest. Only issue is Lee never got his dream, meanwhile every other character does to an extent. Lee as it turns out was meant to be killed off, hence why Shippunden was so focussed on Guy out of the 2 of them.
@AnonTDegenerate no the whole point of naruto is the cycle of hatred that exist in the world that causes so much pain and how to break that cycles for good, some villains in naruto is just pure evil but most of the time they are broken human that's being hurt by this cycles of hatred yet continued it like pain obito or madara for examples, and at the end when given the order to kill sasuke (continuou the cycle) naruto chose to spare him instead (breaking the cycles of hatred for good) that's what naruto at its core is.
the whole hard work vs talent isn't really ever the main point, rock lee lost to gaara and neji saying that you are as good as what you are born is correct, naruto was never talentless, he was a genius, and a reincarnation of ashura.
Honestly trying to say that Goku isn't talented and relies purely on hard work is just outing yourself as being one of the people who starts with the saiyan saga and doesn't watch or read original dragon ball.
One of the biggest part's of Goku's character in those early arcs of the manga is how ridiculously talented he is. He learns techniques and grows at an alarming rate and surpasses people like Roshi and Tien who have far more experience than him and who work just as hard.
What these people miss is that Goku being revealed to be a "low class warrior" is meant to be a plot twist. We're essentially finding out that our hyper competent protagonist was actually the runt of the litter this whole time and was just sent to a weak planet he could easily conquer. The saiyan arrival is basically when for the first time in his life, Goku has to prepare to fight people who are just as if not more naturally talented than he is, and even then we find out later that Goku was still incredibly talented even by saiyan standards.
Goku is a hyper prodigy, but so is the rest of the cast. Goku's talent stops being a wow factor around King Piccolo tbh.
He is absolutely talented, just not by saiyan standards, Vegeta is proof of this even later down the road when he puts his pride down to actually learn things like Goku does. Hyrbid saiyans, Broly, U6 saiyan, yeah, Goku's not too special anymore. Goku has worked so hard in fact his biology literally gave out on him and he stopped getting zenkais in the manga.
Goku zenkais on Namek, had his power lvl get a X5 for just having his ass beat and then he got Super Saiyan. Goku absolutely abuses of his insane genetics, even if he isn't the most talented of his race (that would be Broly).
@@jijidu69 You guys are clearly not looking at the picture properly, at that point goku is literally fights someone born with 120MIL BP, and Goku defeats him after 20+ years of training, calling him "TALENTED" is just wrong, cuz you can only call him talented compared to humans, but when you look at literally anyone else in the series, goku is far behind everyone except maybe vegeta, who is also the same low talent as Goku but keeps training. after the namek saga, every opponent goku faces is more talented or gifted than he is, we later learn that frieza had to train for 2 months to achieve the same results as goku did in 40+ YEARS. The way you compare characters is wrong, you compare Goku in a series with countless of races with the weakest one which are clearly humans, and call him "Prodigy", he is "Prodigy" only compared to those humans, but in the series he is actually lacking talent compared to everyone else, his own son suppressed 4 times in the series without proper training, whole life of goku is literally training to just keep up with others, and everyone else but him just gets their powers out of thin air
Him being talented though isn’t exactly right. All other saiyans besides Vegeta, the u6 saiyans, and half saiyans all didn’t train. Any saiyan can get SSJ.
@@likisus8716 Goku is extremely talented at training, give him one year in the time chamber and he fixes all the flaws of the super saiyan. His base power lvl isn't crazy by the universe standard but it doesn't matter; because he can just train for 40 years and do better than Gods that have trained ultra instinct for eons.
Deku being Genetics is wrong he was a flaw in the MHA world and having no quirk is a misfortune
Hardwork is a win for Deku
Actually no. While it is unfortunate that he has no quirk and he undoubtedly works hard, pretty much harder than anyone else, him being quirkless allows him to take One For All further than his predecessors. He is, in a way, still gifted.
@@OurDarkGoldenHerohe literally got the power by sheer luck by all might and worked hard to even access most of the abilities ofa gives he’s more hardwork than talent
He got one of the most busted quirks simply because he met All Might and was quirkless yes he put in work to train his body to use the quirk but he only got motivation because he got the most busted quirk its like prmising someone $1m to take out the trash
It really doesn't matter most of the "Hardwork vs Talent" meme is almost always wrong with it only being used to boost a preferred character whilst slandering another character. Not to mention you can't just fit a character in something so simple as "hardwork or talent" because most of the characters would fit in either with how you spin it.
Deku is a perfect example as on 1 hand I could say "Well Deku was gifted the 2nd most OP quirk in existence and thanks to him being one of the only quirkless kids he's able to utilize OFA the best" but that's ignoring the other side which will be "He's worked hard more than anyone else in the series and broke multiple bones to do so"
Even with characters that most agree with as Talent like Ichigo it's people being completely ignorant of the characters struggles, hardwork and tenacity. Ichigo was just a guy that just wants a peaceful life with his loved ones but is dragged into facing immortal super humans/spirits.
He goes through some insane mental and physical training, he nearly dies in his shinigami training with Urahara. If it was just talent to his name he wouldn't of gotten as far as he did.
*Overall it's all just rage bait...*
deku is still technically gifted
It is hilarious to me that Saitama, one of the only anime MCs who could reasonably fit purely into the talent section, is almost always put into the hard work section. Several characters literally make jokes about his disproportionate rewards for minimal training
I think a disappointing number of one punch fans think him working out till he got bald shows he struggled a lot. Despite it being pretty clear he is supposed to be an unreliable narrator about how hard his own workout was.
You ever talk to opm fans about it and they challenged you to do the workout yourself? Like we are suddenly applying real life standards of challenge to the anime where the mc pre training beat a giant lobster man.
@Creepsandwicheater yeah, the joke is that it was kinda hard by irl standards, but even other mid tier heroes think he's joking when he tells them his secret
I think people misunderstand that working out isn't the same as training, Working out is to improve your strength while training sharpens your skills
The work was hard for him, though.
he did struggle alot tho he broke his limiter from fighting monsters mostly they would leave him near eath like garou and he would grow and grow you legit cant break ur limiter in opm without working hard, it also scales 100 push ups would be nothing for garou but since satima is below avrage it makes it harder for him which allowed him to break his limiter with that
Yup. In the words of Otto Octavious; "Being brilliant's not enough; you've got to work hard." Not only that, many of the best characters don't even know what their talents are until they start working hard. Kazuma Kuwabara, for instance, knew he had a talent for sensing ghosts, but it was only once he started training hard that he was able to produce and refine the spirit sword.
I feel like the thing everyone overlooks with Goku, regardless of talent and hardwork, is that he had the best teacher. The reason Gokus talent continues growing IS the hard work of others. Unlike all the other major aliens humans have no aptitude for ki, but developing it gave them great ki abilities. Goku had the benefit of getting that knowledge from the greatest ki master in history. Even Vegeta, who was so proud of having trained himself, finally beat Goku and it was only after he got ki training from, beerus/whis and that yardrat guy after fighting Jiren. A good teacher is key to taking advantage of talent and hard work.
I think another major thing is passion. Throughout Z (and frankly through pretty much all of super) Vegeta fights to be the strongest. Goku fights for the love of the craft. The difference is that passion about something will take you to heights that no one would expect in a field simply because you enjoy it, irrespective of talent. Trying to be the best is not an invalid goal, but it’s a goal that burns the person as much as the people they try and surpass. In the end it ends up unhealthy and that does impact performance a lot.
Rock Lee has got to be the most glazed character ever for one fight that he lost
FAXXXX
saying that signifies that you just read mainstream manga, let alone media in the world
adam from ror did the same shit people like him for his spirit . the W is cool and all but thats not all that matters and TBFH the fact his teacher might guy could beat the dog shit out of madara post transformation with both eyes means Lee's potential was more wild then what was shown.
@cliffpaul2483 I mean if we are talking most glazed than popularity is important. The more people who know of a character the more people that could glaze em.
@@cliffpaul2483 Dude, popularity matters in being glazed... so a character in a less popular manga can't be glazed as much....
And Rock Lee, a minor character, has people believing that HIS creed is the point of the entire series....
Think about that for a second. A minor character had people thinking his own personal philosophy was the main point of the series....
It's funny how people say Naruto and Deku get carried by power. Yet, they had to work hard to control the power they had. And for most of the series it was a detriment to them
Not saying Naruto didn’t work hard but apart from before the series started, every time Naruto used kurama’s power it had no significant downsides for him, and at every point it could’ve been a downside/ kurama could’ve been a detriment Naruto was saved by someone else (sasuke beats Naruto at valley of the end in part 1, Yamato stops Naruto after orochimaru ragebaits him, sasuke stops kurama coming out beginning of shippuden, minato prevented him becoming kurama against pain. Imo hes definitely more gifted then most other shounen MCs, but obviously that doesn’t mean he didn’t work hard at some points
@AwesomeJJ. Everytime Naruto used Kurama's power it showed how weak he was mentally and physically. With Haku, it showed how weak minded he was towards the ninja world. With Sasuke, it showed how he didnt understand Sasuke and resorted to brute. And so on a so forth going into Shipudden. There is a reason why Naruto had to overcome his hatred
Naruto is already gifted with massive chakra reserves just for being born an uzumaki even without kurama he would've followed in his father footsteps learned sage mode and still been an insanely strong ninja and he would've figured out a way to compete with sasuke. the 9 tails was just the cherry on top of the mountain of cherries
@@khaledm.1476 Yall do know Hagaromo....the Sage of Six Path literally told Naruto that he inherited NO TALENT from his parents
@wijinsama All uzumaki clan members have large chakra reserves. The toad that teaches naruto sage mode comments on his natural massive chakra reserves and how unlike jiraya who struggled with sage mode ,due to his lower reserves, naruto will have no struggles.
This was a big point in the show in fact anyone with low chakra reserves can accidentally get screwed by sage mode and turn to a toad
You need hard work to make the talent matter ☠☠
Hard work always beats talent
Until talent works hard
Exactly. Micheal Phelps didn't become the best swimmer just by having long arms.
@@colmecolwag damn that's deep
The worst offender of this BS is when I see people try to categorize Gojo as "talent" and Sukuna as "hard work". The guy who had to be nearly murdered to master his technique is nothing but "talent" vs a guy who had a technique for 5 seconds and instantly figured it out is "hard work". JJK fans are never beating the can't read allegations.
See it’s crazy how the series says 80% of ur power is talent and they saw the strongest person their with 0 backstory and said hard work like how
@@FinalslashesSukuna ate his twin in the womb and was set for life 💀
You ever see that meme where it shows Vegeta, Sasuke, and Zoro at the top, and then Goku, Naruto and Luffy at the bottom, and it basically says that Vegeta, Sasuke and Zoro work hard and still fall behind Goku, Luffy, and Naruto who do nothing but slake off and eat? I hate that meme because it completely ignores the fact that Goku, Naruto and Luffy trained as well, and that in the case of Vegeta, he only started training because of Goku.
As saying this as someone who’s favorite Naruto character is Sasuke, and whose favorite One Piece character is Zoro btw (I actually like Goku more than Vegeta though).
Saying vegetas hard work is so funny when his first fight with goku has a nature vs nurture theme and he’s the nature and he’s been consistently stated to be bad at training like what are people on with that take sasuke and Naruto work hard and I don’t know about zoro and luffy
Me too, Goku has trained better than vegeta in the early stages. Vegeta actually has more potential than goku, having less teachers and lessons and manage to catch up and even surpass him. Goku was low class, with only reason he’s better bc he treats his training better than vegeta. Vegeta likes to break his body to the limit, but Goku and his roots says that is just reckless and the body needs resting too. He has better concepts, and that’s why Vegeta in DBS super hero learns this and uses meditation which actually beats Goku due to his now more focused self (Whis also says this is the weakness of Vegeta in RoF)
Lonk had enough 😭
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
@zexalmish5307 get beyblade outta here bro 😭🙏
Goku=hard work
Naruto=hard work
That's all I care about
Fax
Deku casually killing himself everytime he uses his power, literally being forced to work himself to the bone just to use it at 5%:
"Ermmm, yeah, he's gifted" 🤓
I think i'm gonna crash out oh my fucking God
This is a dragon ball channel. Obviously he will be looking at people like Vegeta or Goku’s training. In fact because Deku didn’t have a quirk he was gifted with other quirks besides OFA. He was gifted WITH the quirks.
Bros gonna crash out at a mid anime at best.
@@KingofCurthes YOU ALREADY KNOW, I DIDN'T EVEN WATCH IT PAST SEASON 4 AND I'M ABOUT TO LOSE MY SHIT BRO 😤
He is gifted since nobody else gets such an strong quirk
@@Finalslashes No.
Power scale the mouse cursor @ 4:09
Winner of being the first person to notice it lmao
I honestly like more of these non-powerscaling videos
Well lets hope other people do too!
All these anime mc have both talent and hardwork. Hardwork can only take you so far. You need to be talented in the first place to reach great heights.
except ichigo born with everything and if bleach introduced a new race they'd give some bs reason as to why he'd have it
Have you watched world trigger the mc has barely any talent and still pushes extremely far through cunning and teamwork
@@khaledm.1476world trigger is goated it’s a shame it isn’t as well known
@dihydrite He wouldn't have gotten far if he just relied on his abilities. That was the entire point of him constantly training and still losing.
@@jamaicancloud ok compare a regular soul reaper to ichigo and you can see hes carried by genetics
I always had a problem with people putting luffy in the gifted section because those people either never watched one piece or dont know his fruit.
The rubber human fruit is literally one of the worst fruits in the series unless awakened. When luffy got it, he had spent 10 years getting it to work right. The only reason luffy was able to be versatile or create his "Gear" forms is because of his creativity. And aside from gear 5, all the gears were made from luffy hard work.
The gears were 100% the nika fruit it just shows his progression into mastering his fruit
0:33 Edward Elric literally is stated time and time again to be a prodigy from his heritage tf
Imo it makes no sense since most people with talent still go through hardwork(I.E vegeta, goku, naruto, ichigo ect.
Ichigo never works hard for his abiltiies. His abilities are more understanding himself and his soul more but you can't tell me 3 days of training is "hard work"
@@khaledm.1476true it’s more of an thematic thing
@@khaledm.1476 He's trained more than just for the bankai training what are you on about?
@ It's not really training for ichigo as it is understanding his soul. The vizard transformation wasn't training, neither was the fullbringer, ichigo getting his true bankai was a conversation.
again the way ichigo gains power is through self understanding and not traditional training that goku, luffy or naruto would do
@ Understanding ones self can be viewed as a type of training. He still physically train with urahara, and yes the visord training is still training since he was sparring for over a month with them.
Yes to be fair, a lot of ichigo's "training" was on field experience. And you are right, he doesn't train like them, but saying it's not training is a bit silly.
Calling Goku talented compared to humans is like calling a tiger more talented than a cat. Saiyans are biologically superior to humans. If you compare Goku to other Saiyans, he ain't all that. The only reason Goku became so strong was his mentality and having access to powerful masters. If any other sayian went through the exact training and had the same mentality as Goku, than Goku would be one of if not the weakest saiyan. Hell, when the z fighters trained with Kami, they got way more out the training in one year than goku in 3.
"If another sayain went through the same training and the mentality. Goku would be one of the weakest sayians"
That's not exactly true though? Whis trained both goku and vegeta at the same time. Gave them the exact same training and vegeta was just as willing to train as goku. And even then goku was the one that got more with his training than vegeta
@olp3850 Yeah, because of his mentality.
Find it funny how people say Naruto is carried by kurama despite the fact that prior to mastering the chakra, Naruto didn’t win a single fight using the nine tails. Even against gaara gamabunta did most of the work.
Haku, in battle with him, he would die if not kurama power. (I watch Naruto 5 years ago, but as I remember Naruto with Sasuke was destroyed by Haku)
I could be wrong but without Kurama Haku would've killed him and against Neji without Kurama replenishing his chackra reserves Naruto would've lost that fight so that's false
They don’t mean the Nine-Tails form, they just mean the massive amounts of chakra Kurama passively gives Naruto. It’s the only reason he’s able to constantly spam shadow clone armies at people as his main fight tactic, when the average ninja can only manage 2 clones at best.
I think I much prefer shows where the mc isn't given a super cheat ability that makes it so no matter how hard or smart others work they won't catch up. This is a common trope in shonen either they're born with the cheats ichigo/goku/naruto or they inherit the cheats in the start of the show Deku
My main issue is it always sets a big gap between the mc and the supporting cast look at naruto and then compare him to the rest of the verse besides 1-2 people, same thing for goku vs earthlings being a saiyan gives such an unfair advantage everyone gets powerscaled away and they become irrelevant. I much prefer shows like one piece, black clover, blue lock and world trigger because people can actually keep up with our mcs and evolve as well. Well for world trigger our mc has 0 talent and then never gets that talent, he's weak all the way through which I've never seen in anime before, nevermind in a shonen anime
Yeah, I agree. Realistically, even outside of anime, many main characters in fiction both fit into the whole "hard work" and "talent" categories
Goku fits both, he's hardworking for a naturally combat gifted race.
Most anime protagonists fit that category...
DB answered this almost 30 years ago: ‘If you have talent, then you must train 10x harder’
Hardwork vs Talent just exists cause Dragon Ball fans got mad that Superman is super strong and use the "well at least Goku earned his power therefore hes better" bit
As much as I *_hate_* Luffy, he's almost entirely hard working, heck even his power is stupid and shouldn't be much good in a fight, yet he figured it out and made it overpowered through his own sheer will, determination to be the pirate king and years of training.....
And yet he's an annoying twerp with minimal regard to anyone who doesn't directly beg him for help half the time.
Honestly I think Luffy could've achieved what he did with any Devil Fruit ability... heck he could have made it to where he did with Haki alone like Gol D Rodger, I'd say his only gifts would be his social relations, he knows people or is associated with people in high places, that would be his exception.
Literally EVERY shonen character is mix of hard work and talent.
It takes work to learn and use abilities properly no matter how talented you are else you’ll hit a wall eventually, and even if not readily apparent EVERYONE, has a talent or affinity to something that becomes their specialty. It’s the combination of the two factors that makes the whole character.
Not really I am gonna recommend world trigger the mc has 0 talent besides being crafty and creative which anyone else could do and is regularly outmatched
Yeah the fact Is That every character usually even if he got any type of boost Still putted effort to Master or use That tecnique
Lonk's upset because someone put Gohan in the gifted category because "potential" is just a BS mcguffin to make irrelevant characters relevant again.
Those charts are usually just bs rage bait, but when they are done with honest intentions I have seen that they are usually based on the major source of a character's power, not an all or nothing situation.
For example, Naruto is insanely gifted even though he had to work hard to become anything impressive.
Son to a hokage and one of the most powerful members of the Uzumaki clan that was renowned for their immense chakra and special sealing jutsus, gifted with half of the Nine Tails (yes gifted, because even when it was a "burden" that messed with his chakra control, it still saved his life constantly), trained by one of the legendary sanin for years (who also trained his father and is also his godfather), part of a team with one of the most impressive ninja (kakashi) in any village to the point that he is known far and wide for his talent, is the reincarnation of one of the most powerful ninja in history, and is the child of prophecy.
Yeah he still had to work hard, but he won the lottery several times over and was never really in any position to be called an underdog compared to someone like Sakura, who's only inherent advantage in life being that her parents weren't divorced or dead, and she only got trained by Tsunade because she proved her own worth to her.
I'm not a fan of Sakura as a person, but she did make something of herself when she came from nothing, making her a true underdog.
It'd be like looking at Arnold and Danny Devito and saying they both have a fair chance at winning against each other in any physical competition.
TL;DR, it's more of a spectrum than two hard categories. Nearly nobody falls exclusively into one or the other.
I love gaara vs Lee as much as anyone else but I can’t forgive it for ruining the anime community’s perception on what talent and hardwork is making it a flat 2d thing like the talented person didn’t also train to live up to their gifts in the first place. If they didn’t it would look like Megumi from jjk but all he does is eat junk food and watch tv.
That series says everyone is 80% talent so
I mean isn’t that the community’s fault more than the fight itself??
Megumi always worked hard. It is Yuji Who never worked but always had the power. Yuji is the mc where I call him 100% gifted
@ we see Megumi do the same amount of training Yuji does with less pay off. Also I never said he was just using him as an example.
In dragon ball, Goku's only gifts are transformations. Compared to other people in his verse, he has near to zero talent, he has less potential than even the earthlings, he just knows how to train efficiently
And all the power ups he got in og Dragon Ball ol
@LegendaryOverfiend and thats with training with the strongest martial artists and Gods
He doesn’t have less potential than Earthlings. His Saiyan DNA gives him the Zenkai boost ability. That shows how powerful Saiyans are compared to above average Humans.
@Maximations2005 he literally does. The earthlings have kept up with Goku by training alone, even though Goku is training with Gods. The earthlings have a LOT more potential than him, and thats just it
@@Yokarblue That makes sense until you factor in the SSJ transformations. I don’t think Humans can keep up with SSJ, they got power creeped. (You could say that Krillin in DBS was able to spar with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, but it was obvious that Goku was massively holding back.)
"If you see your favourite character"
I'll see him if the show gets the Ranma½ treatment
I disagree with putting Naruto as Talented.
Yes he did have the 9 tails fox in him at birth and it made him strong, However You have to remember that Naruto couldn't control it, Kurama would always take control and made him lose his mind, Naruto had to build a relationship, build a bond and a connection with the monster that was inside him. Saying Naruto is talented is Crazy, he had to Tame Kurama. Imagine end of series adult Naruto having no control over Kurama. He would pretty much commit Genocide due to having no control over the beast, Naruto should be in the middle, he is Talented 'However again' he had to put in the work to calm down the beast and build a relationship
1:15 bro wtf are the FLOOD doing there! THE PREDATOR HUNTERS ARE LITERALLY HALF CARRIED BY ADVANCED TECH TOO
Exactly. Like, whatever hppens, they're still the protagonist(s)
Tbh a MC can’t represent either of these, nearly all anime MC’s got really lucky with their talent but train hard or they’re from romance Animes… either way, most if not all fighting or action MC’s are both
What was more important for Goku? His hard work or his Talent?
His hard work, Goku strives for surpassing his limits and getting stronger. An example is when he didn't like the way he got super saiyan god
I would say both
Idk if I’d say “his talent” bc he has multiple talents, but his hard work is what makes those talents stand out more.
@@lonkstakes Lets say Goku is in top 10 strongest fighters of DB, not a single soul in that top 10 except for Vegeta and maybe Jiren, trained as hard as Goku. You can only call him talented if you compare him to humans. Like if average talent could be measured and humans had "1" , Goku would have "5" , but the average talent(gifted number) in the DB verse would be 50-100, thats just because of how close everyone to Gokus lvl without his training experience and methods .
Goku got stronger than any of the ridiculous number of Saiyans since legendary times ever did in the Frieza saga (other than Broly). You think none of them ever worked hard as heck? But he would have died as a kid if he hadn't trained like mad his whole life. He's a heaping helping of both.
I mean ichigo is pretty damn close to the story breaking its back to give him new powers solely because of natural gifts....
A lot of normies unfortunately think that Rock Lee was the peak of Naruto. Like damn were they wrong. He's the definition of "peaked in high school."
Cause normies just watch the chunin exams and thats all they remember
it was peak for me guess im a normie i related to rock lee the most hes my goat
"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."
Tanjiro always being lumped in talented in these always rubs me the wrong way. Like sure, is he talented to an extent? Yes, but people chose to ignore all the hard work and multiple instances of training that got him to where he is.
I always see around "Goku (DBS) vs Reimu (Touhou project) could explain why this battle would be unbalanced
Probably not gonna learn the scaling of Touhou ngl
@lonkstakes OK
From what I understand on what some guy tells me on Touhou, when a character has an ability the ability applies in every aspect you can imagine so Reimu apparently “flies beyond the concept of reality” or something, I need to check what he actually said.
@bluerubberducky3028 Indeed it is right
Gonna be honest, the Muffin Spider, Yamame, is enough since Goku has barely any resistance to poison so you don’t have to go that far down Touhou to find someone who can beat him
Good vid lonk. Only reason this is even popular is cause of garbage engagement baiters on twitter.
Moro is a prime example of talent and NOT hard work
Asta and Yuno in my opinion perfectly encapsulate Hard Work vs Talent. Black clover spoilers down below!
Yuno is Natural Talent due to being the prince of the spade kingdom and being chosen by the four leaf clover grimoire and Wind spirit Sylph, he's a prodigy at using magic, becoming vice captain of the Golden Dawn in under a year.
Asta was born without a lick of mana, but he kept training, and training. Even though he was blessed with anti-magic and his swords, he didn't stop, and it paid off, he is one of THE representations of hard work.
The point of stories like goku and Naruto is that they are gifted. With goku it's that he was so gifted roshi struggled to properly train him and with Naruto it's abou how despite being gifted until halfway through the show his life still kinda sucks.
Goku=mostly hardwork 🗿(Seriously) like 10/90% in favour of hardwork, but that whole thing doesn't make sense, talent and hardwork are complicated
The dude can copy techniques by seeing them once or invent them on the spot while he can't move three of his limbs and he's almost dead; there's some talent there.
Hell yeah this was worth the membership and I completely agree, I always thought those comparison posts were dumb because every character really fits in both
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
@zexalmish5307 agreed
cool video also who do u think is stronger trunks in dokkan battle or shallot from legends?
I don’t think anyone strong has really appeared in the story of Dokkan so prolly shallot
@@lonkstakes Z broly is in dokkan u got also u got u or your xenoverse character
I think it would be really interesting to have a shonen manga where are the main character wants to achieve their goal as much as a person could possibly want to achieve any goal. But simply aren't gifted enough to achieve it to the point of true impossibility. But because of their personality they simply can't give up. Essentially making the story a battle between unstoppable force of will and an immovable object of reality.
I agree that Goku is hard working and talented because of HOW HE WAS RAISED and NOT JUST FROM TALENT. I guess people still didn't watch OG Dragon Ball or that Goku never beats most of the antagonist the first time until he trains hard to beat them.
Like compare him to an Jo shmo in his species and he has awful genetics when it comes to pure strength
@@Finalslasheslet’s compare him to other characters outside his anime he is 100% talented
@@Finalslashesalso like his genetics literally carry him since we all know if we wasn’t a sayain he would die to freeza
@@Forsakenruler yea and that doesn’t make him talented that makes him a sayian
@@Finalslashes and sayains are natural talented
I think someone could make an pretty interesting shonen manga that primarily focuses on this topic as a primary theme.
"but but... he's talented in hardworking!"
To me, what ultimately matters is exactly how and why characters use the power they have. Talent gives them power and opportunities to use it, and hard work allows them to refine the power and make it their own (rather than the power making them its own).
The “how” and “why” behind a character’s use of their power goes a long way towards helping the audience understand the character along with the greater narrative they’re placed in. And I think a lot of people lose sight of that because they’re more caught up in how characters receive their power rather than how they utilize and/or express it, the latter usually being the more vital part of the story.
I think it’s why I’ve seen some folks complain about the “chosen one” trope, putting those characters in the same boat as talented characters and claiming all their hard work and challenges are moot. Sure, there are probably plenty of examples of bad writing not utilizing the trope well, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with the trope itself. Again, what matters is how that chosen/talented character chooses to refine/utilize that power as a reflection of themselves, their goals, and their beliefs, which can/should involve a lot of hard work along the way.
So the point isn't how the power got there; it’s where characters choose to go with it.
Brilliant and succinct video using points supported by actual arguments to shut down stupid takes. Should be the go-to going forward
Honestly, I'm just waiting for a new Shonen series where the main character is truly the epitome of hard work. Like just your normal average joe that wasn't born with some creature inside of them or have some sort of super special powers or is from some special bloodline, or is chosen by some powerful entity, no, just a normal person who is operating on the same rules of everyone elese in that world and is of average talent. Through their own training and creativity, they become the strongest of their world.
In what world is Naruto not hard work? He learned things quickly, sure. But he only managed to do that because he used clones to get years worth of training in days. He still had to do and experience all of that effort to get there, because he remembers everything his clones do. Even his tailed beast powers took years to get to.
Fun Fact: it took 10 years for luffy to learn gum gum pistol 💀
Yeah, it really all is. Talent cannot be replicated by effort. Not just Talent, every single good or bad trait we have that we either fault ourselves over or take credit for, is out of our control. Looks, talent, i.q, much of our personality traits are genetic, and yet in 2025 we still have the "bro, just, fill in the blank). Potential cannot be reached without hard work or effort, but ones hard work and reaching ones Potential could be the first floor on the elevator to the person next to you who hasnt even started.
I feel as the whole hardwork beating talent thing in Naruto, while not being a MAIN theme is still very much a theme in early Naruto the garra vs Lee fight isn't the only one that displays this theme. The whole Naruto vs Neji fight is also themed after it. Neji playing as the one with talent against the hard working Naruto ,but themes in stories are always subjective. Sometimes the author doesn't even plan for a theme to manifest, but I feel the Hardwork vs talent was a theme they wanted to implement, but the story they were writing was working Counter intuitive to it so they abandoned the thought. Other than that another BANGER!!
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
@zexalmish5307 Beyblade mention?!?! BASED
Except the fight quite literally shows that Neji is just as hard working as Naruto is and that the real theme of the fight was how Neji was a hypocrite for talking about destiny and that Naruto won’t become hokage because you have to be born to be one, yet Neji who wasn’t born a main branch member beat Hinata. At the end of the fight Neji even mentioned how Naruto’s words freed him from this ideology.
@@patrickzantomaster lmao and Naruto's dad was hokage. Every hokage is related in someway. So you could say Neji was right.
@ read my comment again. Neji the sidebranch beat the main branch. Hagoromo tells Naruto that his parents aren’t the reason for his success. And Minato’s Parents were also nameless bums, meanwhile minato was at 15 so talented and powerful that he was compared to Hashirama. Meanwhile Naruto at 15 was just starting out in shipuuden against Akatsuki that Sasuke could beat.
It’s not about who is hard working or gifted it’s how they use what talent they have and how to improve them and also to improve what skills they haven’t learned to be the ultimate version of you as one man once said “Work hard, study well, and eat and sleep plenty That is the Turtle Hermit way We must master the art of peace in addition to the art of war”when you have the right mentality you can go ever further beyond what limits you hidden strengths
1:33 you have to presume it’s which camp they skew more two or else it meaningless since most of them weren’t that strong out of the womb
3:53 yea but he skews heavily more to hard work and he’s not talented compared to others in his species
"Hard Work vs Talent" enthusiasts when they see elite born saiyan Vegeta training, multi species Ichigo training, and Cyborg Sentai Prince Sanji training.
Great video!
The biggest irony is that it's mostly people talking about Jump manga where the editors probably mandate a minimum level of acknowledgement of "hard work" by the MC simply to get published, when there's the entire light novel industry that made isekai where the MC is plopped into a setting and immediately the strongest person in the universe (or if they aren't they can get there with very little effort) into basically the standard.
Saying Goku is talented is wrong, the whole point is just comparing Goku to Humans, the weakest possible race for DB universe, it's like comparing an ant to a dog, but that dog which is goku, actually fights in a world full of tigers, and is actually winning. Just remember that Frieza trained for 2 months(might be slightly off) and got the same power as goku did in 40+ YEARS, there is also Gohan,Piccolo,Cell,Majin Buu, pretty much most of his opponents/rivals are either born just stronger than him or have better genetics. Saiyan genes are not "Talent" they are bare minimum required to actually do what Goku can.
What are you yapping about? There are different levels of talent, goku is still talented even if he is less talented than others.
@@plantcrone9662 The hell you mean different levels of talent? You can be talented compared to someone else, and goku is clearly less talented than like 70% of the dragonball cast
@ Literally any character in the TOP who could match Goku in his base form are more talented than him if we forget about saiyan forms, and that's considering how Goku is having best mentors possible actual deities of his universe, and still there are fodder alien races that can match his base form
What's so bad about being talented? Hell Superman the first Superhero is a Talent character and he's the most inspirational character out there using his gifted power to fight for those who can't fight for themselves unlike the hard workers who only do it for personal gain like Deku wanting to be the Greatest Hero, Naruto wanting to be Hokage, Luffy wanting to find the one piece or Goku wanting to fight strong opponents.
Fuck “hard work vs talent”. Let’s focus on “drip vs physique” debates where we compare character designs and/or examine characters to determine whether it’s the fit or the build that makes them THEM
80s anime MCs swweeping
My favorite depiction of this is Zuko and Aang, Zuko’s desperate for the strength to beat Azula and Aang doesn’t want his strength.
Zuko works hard but is still can’t solve his problems do to impatience and eventually learns humility, wich is a trait usually associated with his opposite element
will Aang often avoids his problems but learns when to confront them and learns responsibility wich is also the opposite of his element.
Hey lonk just a request. Would you scale Archie sonic plz
Or how far archie sonic can get into Dragon Ball type video
I think it will be fun
Damn this is the second archie sonic request in one day
OMG yes, thank you!!! You don't know how frustrating it has been to see all these posts. It does make me happy that there are also still people out there who can see that "Hard work vs Talent" theme in Naruto is completely wrong. And how using that to describe characters with their journey to their powers and how they got there look squandered and meaningless. I know its not that big of a deal but come on, nobody is just one thing in these kinds of settings. That's completely one note
I've also never understood why people think that Talent is a bad thing. Working hard to achieve something is commendable but for example, just because someone plays the piano better in a shorter amount of time than someone who played it for years doesn't mean that the more Talented person should be seen as lazy or has no grasp of the craft.
fun fact: there is actually a Manhwa called Boxer where there is one character that is ONLY talented and one that is ONLY hardworking; of course, many characters, including the protagonist, are not focused entirely on those-but there are two which are
if not three, as there can be argued to be a 2nd person that is only hard working and not so much talented
Ladies and Gentlemen we have a centerfield banger on our hands 🔥🔥🔥
" Some Men Just Want to Watch the World Burn "
Alfred, The Dark Knight
It’s a good story narrative in my opinion
Real legends would know that this also fits for Kai vs Brooklyn rematch in Beyblade G revolution
You should do a video on the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime
Haven't seen it sorry
Yes, PLEASE.
@@lonkstakes Well I'd definitely reccomend you put it on your watch list.
Some call it "for kids" or "cheesy" but I really enjoyed it, and you haven't really lived until you've seen kaiba sacrifice god for his waifu.
@@lonkstakes At least include it in a video, maybe one about multiple anime
Good video bro
Thanks to point out this crap
I think a better way to encapsulate the Hard Work vs Talent debate is to acknowledge it as a spectrum. That way you can actually speculate which characters have their achievements based more on talent / hard work than others. Take Deku, for example. Deku, imo, would fall somewhere around 50% Talent and 50% hard work, or maybe a 40-60 split. He absolutely trains super hard to master his Quirk, but it’d just be straight up wrong to say that that hard work alone led to his achievements. If Deku had been given any other Quirk rather than the strongest quirk in the series, even with the same amount of hard work he wouldn’t have been able to achieve what he had been able to. Goku would fall somewhere around 35% talent, 65% hard work, because while training hard to overcome brutal odds is basically Goku as a whole, there is no denying that he is just better - both due to his natural genius of training as well as his heritage as a Saiyan - than everyone else around him that trains just as hard, if not harder. A good example would be Vegeta, who trains just as hard if not harder than Goku, and yet struggles to keep up due to being less talented than Goku at the things they do. Yes, Vegeta was naturally stronger than Goku in the Saiyan Saga, but to say that Vegeta is more talented than Goku is would just be a lie. The last one I’ll go into is Yuji, who would be also around 30% talent, 70% hard work since Yuji is the only one capable of eating Sukuna’s fingers without dying (except Megumi, of course) and is the only one able of “Caging” Sukuna instead of being a Vessel. Not to mention that he was gifted with an extremely potent body, and was born as one of Choso’s brothers. Everything on paper points to Yuji being extremely naturally talented, but he puts aside those natural talents instead for extremely hard work: he refuses to let Sukuna out, and he trains despite also having 0 aptitude for Cursed Energy. He spends an entire arc just training.
All in all, it’s a spectrum which I think is a lot more understandable than just Black or White
Talent without Hardwork will never get you anywhere and Hard Work will only get you so far without Talent .
Ok so your issue is you're looking at this too ridgedly. Yes we're saying hardwork vs talent obviously (almost) everyone works hard and (almost) everyone trains. They have to especially if we're talking about the mc because they have to overcome a challenge or your story is boring. What we're looking at is where the crux of their power comes from. For instance if you take away Lee's hard work he's essentially just a guy whereas if you remove frieza's hardwork he's still like top 10 mortals in his verse.
You know I’m annoyed when people just auto say hard work for anything I’d just put them in what they skew to more like their putting jjk characters in hard work when they stated for batum their world is 80% talent
Rock Lee has done WAY too much damage to this side of the anime fandom dude it's so annoying
Sanji isnt a talent... not until Wano, but he rejected his blood. And Frieza trained in a time chamber for 10 years, and trained for 4 months. Frieza unironically did more training than Gohan. Gohan trained for the saiyans, 1 year, trained for the andriods if chichi let him, potential 3 years, trained another year for cell, did no more training till dbs super where he did idk how much training but let's just say 1 year. That was after rof where he trained. Then he said he hadn't gotten soft to piccolo, but struggled with weight himself as a kid wouldnt, and even admitted himself slacking off on it after defeating cell max. So Gohan at a max trained for 6 years. But lets just say it was 3 years cause I didn't see it in the andriod saga other than the time chamber.
Great video btw
This debate is stupid partly because almost always the words used do not mean what they actually mean. The actual sentiment is whether a character passes the meme creator's sense of fairness.
İ personally think the debates should revolve around who's more hardworking than talented or who's more talented than hardworking,but even then,it doesnt solve the issues of characters that got the strongest or possibly the strongest power in their verse (Deku,gojo etc.) or characters that have an op ability but it also has a detriment to them (naruto,gaara etc.)
I feel like this argument works best outside of animes.
Its probably also the reason why certain debate like goku vs superman were so heated in the past.
Naruto is both a hard worker and a gifted
He is gifted 'cause:
Insane Chakra reserve
Wind Element
Kurama's power
Talented to learn new no elemental jutsus
And he hard worker 'cause:
Train for years to control his chakra, only this
The Rasengan as a technique is very simple, is just a ball of spinning chakra, but isn't a Junin lvl jutsu for nothing
A bad made rasengan can easily just disappears from your hands, or in the worst case just blow up, is a very high chakra control required technique
Things like the "big Rasengan" looks simple, because is just a bigger rasengan, but create it and control it to dont blow up it with you is complicated
Also, since is just a big chakra ball, it benefits of big chakra reserves
The same case with the Shadow Clone jutsu. Naruto struggles doing the Clone jutsu because he didn't now how to control his chakra, then the clone went unstable
But hte Shadow Clone has 2 particularities
1. Divides the Chakra of the user in equal parts for each clone, so it's imposible to overcharge it with chakra
2. Since the Shadow Clone requires a lot more of Chakra to be created, Naruto didn't struggle with that
Both the Rasengan and the Shadow Clone Jutsu are the perfect techniques for Naruto, and if you pay attention, with the pass lf time, Naruto reach a so higher control over his chakra that he is capable of spamming both techniques with out reat
Now, Son Goku
Goku is both gifted and hard worker
He's gifted because:
He is extremely talent at learning skills
His genetics (Saiyan)
But, we all can agree thath there is no other character more high worker that Son Goku, the only things he does is training
W video . I always hate when people say Goku is all talent and no hardwork became he was birn that way
Amazing video
Intentionally reductive of an anime character is the whole premise of anime/manga powerscaling 😂
Extremely good video🙏