I was one of the paratroopers out there that day. I saw the F-16 coming right at us and turned to run. It was traveling 450 mph when it hit, and it it all happened so fast. It took off my left leg right below the knee, and the fireball burned 43% of my body. I was placed into an induced coma for 3 weeks, and the memorial service had already taken place when they woke me. The chaplain brought in a VCR and watched the service with me. He wouldn't tell me who had died. I found out as the names were read on tv. I was the last soldier to leave the hospital alive. Spc. Lumbert had lost both legs and hands and was burned over 88% of his body. He would suffer for over 9 months before becoming the final casualty. RIP Marty! RIP to all of the soldiers who died!
You displayed incredible fortitude to recover from such a terrible accident. I’m sure the recovery was immensely difficult. I appreciate you sharing your comment. You have my utmost respect and deepest condolences on the loss of your brothers. My prayers are with you.
Just stumbled upon this, sorry to hear about your injuries I hope you recovered somewhat or mostly. Can you tell me what division, brigade, regiment, battalion, company you were in?
I'm very sorry to hear this. I came across your channel about 4 years ago by one of your tutorial videos and to find this comment absolutely devastated me. Hope your doing fine now.
I personally know a family whose husband/father was involved in this accident. Many men continue to bear unseen scars all these years later. Praying for their peace, especially this time of year.
I felt the hand of God that day. I was scheduled to be in the stick of jumpers waiting on Green Ramp to load up. As I was heading out for pre-jump our Ops NCO caught me and said that he'd had me pulled from the jump because he'd found a better one for me a couple of days later. We were working in the motor pool later that day when we heard the explosion and saw the fireball. We had no idea what had happened until Ops called out all of our medics and pulled all our ambulances for the rescue operation. God rest the souls who were lost that day. I cry every time I see this.
I was injured during PT a couple of weeks before and due to a profile I was scratched from the jump. My platoon sergeant put another medic in my place who was killed. It’s haunting…I’ve had this happen a couple of times, and to be honest, I often wonder why me?
One of the most stressful civilian or military job is working as an ATC. Even more stressful is being an ATC "trainee" and found at-fault for a collision and multiple fatalities. The PTSD and guilty would be overwhelming.
I was stationed at Pope when this happened. I was approximately 3000 to 4000 ft from accident and heard a loud pop, but didn’t realize a plane had crashed until a few minutes later when I saw the fire and heard all of the fire trucks. A day I will never forget for the rest of my life.
It annoys me that this is not one of the 99 out of 100 times, where civil aviation would undergo a major change. To my knowledge, military aircraft still do not self-destruct upon ejection. Yes, it's a double jeopardy for the escaped pilots, and still places risk on the ground, but the explosion doesn't have to be large to take apart the aircraft into enough pieces to make it less deadly, surely? That is a financial above life action that civil aviation would not have had the luxury of for sure. I think it was the part that went down as pilot error, but that's the problem of ejection. How can you make that decision correctly? Essentially you are abandoning a lost aircraft, but in this case that isn't explained 100% and the simulation shows the aircraft flew on, so maintained that ability.
@@TheJingles007 we don't see war all the time, we do see green ramp almost daily. If Covid didn't screw up all our jumps we'ed be going there twice a month.
I was a medic at Ft. Bragg that day. I was working at a TMC when it happened and did not witness it. It was all hands on deck. We used our FLA to transport 4 soldiers with moderate burns to a burn ward in Chapel Hill. Burned flesh has a distinct sickly sweet/metallic smell. That is what I remember most.
I was a pilot stationed at Pope AFB in the 2nd AS and knew the entire crew of the Herk. I had completed my out processing and was leaving the next day for a PCS to Little Rock AFB when this accident happened. Your title should read "Air Force F-16 collides with C-130 over North Carolina," as the Herk was hit from behind. The Herk crew did a remarkable job of recovering the plane without additional loss of life.
F-16 lost nose cone, pilots with ejection seat didn’t bother to check whether the plane can fly or not and bailed out early. C130 has potential horizontal stabilizer damage, no ejection seats and pilots decided to continue flying to check controllability of aircraft whether can land safely. Can’t imagine what they were thinking when they saw the scene on the ground.
They were thinking theyd be court martialed, but accountability is only for us talentless serfs. Easier and cheaper to blame the ATC and train new ones than train new pilots.
Before you eject you should be thinking "where is my plane going to hit the ground?" Back in the early 80's a co-worker who had been in the US Air Force told me this story. He was in the control tower at an US Air Force base in Germany when he hear this going on over the radio. A US Air Force F-4 had lost hydraulics or flight controls so the crew needed to eject. If the crew ejected from the F-4 it could of possibly crashed into a town that was ahead and kill people on the ground. Instead of ejecting the crew rolled the F-4 180 degrees and crashed the plane into the ground rather than taking a chance of killing people on the ground.
@@sd906238 That's a mighty big statement/assumption that both crew decided to kill themselves by rolling 180 degrees and flying into the ground. No crew would do that.
I served as an 11B Paratrooper at Fort Bragg NC and had many jumps out of Pope AFB. I remember hearing about this incident when I first got to Bragg in 2002 but never remember hearing too many details. 20 years later I'm finally seeing a video documenting what actually happened. I'm glad someone put this together, helps put things into perspective from someone who's been to where this tragedy took place all those years ago.RIP to all those paratroopers who lost their life that day.
I was there when this happened. I had weekend duty the weekend before so I was off that day… think it was a Wednesday. I lived in the dorms nearest the runways. The courtyard in view of the planes coming and going and was outside studying for my night school History class at Campbell University which had a Satellite campus at Pope. Pope is surrounded by Fort Bragg. Booms and explosions are common and you get used to it after a while. I had my back to the runway and didn’t flinch with the boom from the crash and didn’t know until an SP in my dorm ran past and said there was a crash. The end of the ramp looked like Armageddon. The paratroopers were all sitting in full packs and couldn’t run because in full pack they waddle to the planes. They sit near the fence in the grass until they load up. The aircraft struck was ful of fuel and its crew chief was on board but saw the plane and made a guick exit. The F16 I was told tried to full throttle the aircraft to clear the runway and crash over in the fields on Bragg but the nosecone was gone and it skipped off the ramp in a bounce to where it crashed after it struck first where I marshaled my C130 out the day before. F16s land with a nose high angle and have to fly instruments almost without site of anything below, which is why they did not see the 130… Only discrepancy in your story I found was the wrecked C130 actually landed at nearby Seymour Johnson before returning to pope the next day… Never will forget that…Just recently ran into a Paratrooper who was there and in charge of some of those who died… he was never the same and we had a long tearful talk on its anniversary last year. Small world. Air Force one and the President came a day later. Our base commander was reassigned to The Pentagon… I got orders to Ramstein and left… the F16s are no longer stationed at Pope as it is designed for C130s and Warthogs and transport planes…
My recollection was the C-130 that was hit did a go around and landed soon after. The feathered all four props and egressed the plane right near the runway.
Future video recommendation: A Navy P-3C and a Convair 990 operated by NASA collided while on final approach to Moffett Field Naval Air Station in 1973. It could make an interesting story in your format if you can recreate the unique aircraft involved.
If the channel owner is reading this, watch the video "Moffett Field Air Tragedy - The Story of Sole Survivor, Bruce Mallibert" for details that would help the event reconstruction.
Probably wasn't a "C" model in 1973. Good idea for a video though. Another would be the at-sea ditching of VP-9s P-3 out of Adak in 1978. (Runaway prop)
A fighter pilot who can't see a C-130 in his face has no right to be in that seat. Situation awareness is such a key factor in their jobs for christ sake.
In my limited experience as passenger in a small plane, I was impressed at how little contrast was available when up in the air. It was as if the light coming down from above washed out half of what I was looking at. Much different from looking at mountains etc. while traveling in a car.
I can't imagine the feeling when the pilots, on their parachutes saw the fireball and realized they had killed dozens of men. RIP to all who lost their lives.
Yeah, I feel a truly situational aware and selfless pilot would have made a better attempt at ditching the plane in a safer manner prior to ejecting. RIP and thank you for your service to those who lost their lives.
@@usernamesrlamo it would be very hard to know where the dang jet would land plus the jet telling them to eject would have them under huge stress to do so in that situation.. I saw another military jet where the 2 pilots didn't listen to the calls of the jet to eject, n both men passed away that day.. It was clear by their refusal to eject that day that they refused bcuz the jet woulda crashed in a suburban area killing innocent ppl, instead they steered the jet into an area where no ppl were n sacrificed themselves to save others but i'm sure they woulda ejected if they had just a few more seconds to do so, may they RIP..
They didn't react like you hoped they would have. They were relieved of duty because they failed to spend 3 seconds and direct their plane to an open field
I was there that day, the pilots bailed out and landed not far from the Engine shop where I was working. I had just come back from the Test cell when this happened. I just got out of the truck when we heard the pilots eject. then the engines caught and the F16 took off toward Green ramp. All those troopers on the deck and they couldn't go anywhere with all the gear on. I took the shop truck and was able to get three guys to Womack. After that the base was locked down and I couldn't get back in. I'll never forget that day
Who called for the F-16 crew to eject? I’ve flown the F-16(N)…and first thing I would do is climb and see if the jet was flying. I wouldn’t do anything somebody on the ground said to do. Plus, couldn’t see a C-130 under the nose? Don’t doubt that the PIC didn’t see the C-130 but maybe look out the window more.
This happened at 300 feet, and they had been descending, so it may not have been clear whether they could climb (or how much control they had) or if they were about to hit the ground. Another poster said that the eject call came from a USMC C-130 waiting for departure. At the angle-of-attack for the flame-out approach, the C-130 would have been obscured by the nose.
If you are familiar with the F-16 then take one guess where a bunch of the debris from the collision went......right into the engine, plus your F-16 was at idle thrust at the time, you are at 300', your radome is gone, engine fodded, you really think you have time to spool up the engine, and hope it responds?
DullOnion, if you've flown the F-16N (in anything besides a simulator), you would know that when doing a straight-in SFO the pilot wouldn't be able to see the mishap C-130, and you'd probably feel pretty comfortable that you had the traffic situation doped because all he was hearing about was the other C-130 in the pattern that was not a conflict which he had already visually acuired. You would also know that with the radome gone, both AOA probes are gone with it. If you lose both AOA probes the jet is uncontrollable. The only remaining choice was to eject. For those who think this video presentation is even remotely accurate, it is not.
I was there on Greenramp at Pope AFB when this occurred. I was in 2/504th (82nd Airborne) on the tarmac preparing for a jump. It was a very clear day, deep blue skies without a cloud. RIP to our brothers that lost their lives on that terrible day.
I was there in the office shop area near the flightline that day. Ran outside to see the smoke billowing from the C-141siiting on the ramp. Sad day for USAF and our Army brothers and Sisters.
Something almost similar to this happened around sunset on a drop zone that I was controlling West of Dallas TX. A flight of 6 or 7 C-130s were inbound to drop practice cargo and I noted an F-16 crossing the flight path. Thinking that he cleared the area, the dummy circled and pointed nose down to take a closer look at the "A" that's the point of impact. The 130s were rapidly closing in and I radioed the 16 to clear the area or collision with one of the 130s will happen. He immediately turned West to clear the area and not 30 seconds later, the flight flew over their release point. I radioed to find if any of them if they saw the 16 lingering over my drop zone and they stated that they didn't see it. This sorta shook me that there would've been one ugly accident if he had stayed a few seconds longer.
I flew on C130's in USCG and one of my jobs is running our camera system on patrols. I caught fighter jets twice coming real close to us unannounced. Both times were F-16's. Our pilots had no idea they were there. We don't just do cargo and fly straight all the time. Not saying there was a high chance of mid-air, but they made it a possibility that it could happen.
@@herc1305 As an old USAF C-130 "camera guy" myself, amongst other things, I’ve seen too many fighter jocks of all types making the skies too dangerous far too often, even playing chicken with us at times. I don’t get the mind-set. Boredom? Self-centeredness? On the other hand, I’ve had Dutch F-16’s shoot down bad guys coming to get us. So, there’s that.
For those asking how the F-16 pilots couldn’t see the big C-130 right in front of them, please notice that the C-130 was flying BELOW the nose level of the F-16 and that the F-16 has a high instrument panel. The F-16 pilots couldn't see the C-130 below them with the large instrument panel in their way. It was up to the military and civilian ATC to warn each pilot and each other of their proximity. They failed to do so, which led to the collision.
We were at Pope when this happened. My husband was rescue crew chief for the Pope AFB fire department. They were able to respond immediately because they were already out on a drill and in position. Probably the only fortunate thing that happened that day. Days later during an interview he and other firefighters were describing what happened and how they also had to concentrate on other planes on the ground. The reporter asked “Who cares about planes?” She thought that with so many casualties the last thing anyone would care about is saving aircraft. What she didn’t understand was that the planes were full of jet fuel and had they become engulfed the entire incident would have been 100x worse.
C-130 is in front of F-16 , which he can see, looses sight of it, crashes into its tail with minimal damage, ejects from cockpit and allows jet to crash , kill and injure over 20 soldiers . Pilot found partially at fault. Something doesn't sound right.
As a C-130 flyer stationed at Pope AFB when this incident happened, along with knowing all C-130 crew members involved, having been fully briefed about the investigation findings, and being an eye-witness to this incident, I on a single viewing of this presentation noted 18 factual errors or omissions of relevant information. Beginning with the title. The C-130 did not collide with the F-16. The F-16 collided with the C-130. Other errors include; Capt Salmon was a C-130 liaison pilot on an F-16 familiarization flight not an F-16 WSO, all aircraft involved were stationed at Pope AFB and were painted with the FT (Flying Tigers) tail flash, the 23rd Operations Group was at Pope AFB not Moody as was the 74th FS. Along with other minor errors. Other relevant information that should be noted include; both aircraft were below 300 feet at the time of collusion, the C-130 aircraft were communicating with tower using a UHF frequency and the F-16s were using a VHF frequency but tower was not simulcasting, the F-16 SFO approach is flown with a significantly high AOA resulting in the nose of the aircraft blocking a large field of view directly in front of the aircraft. Additionally, an F-16 approach speed is 160-170 knots. A C-130 on short final will be below 130 knots. There was a Marine C-130 awaiting departure that made the “eject, eject, get out” call over the VHF frequency. There were other officers and enlisted receiving disciplinary action than just the two officers and three enlisted. The C-130 involved was 68-10942 being flow by a crew from the 2nd AS.
Do you know if the 74th is still at Pope? I'm guessing the TFC looked it up and that they're at Moody now. I do know that the F-16s were removed from Pope after this crash. A former Flying Tiger maintenance troop.
Glad you chimed in here. I've seen the same misinformation about this incident in other videos to which I commented. I was at 9 AF HQ Stan/Eval at the time and all the Pope guys fell under our purview. C-130 guy myself. Also to point out is when the Marine crew made the eject calls I'm going to assume the F-16 crew just bailed without trying any controllability check. Command ejection? Not sure how they had their seats set up. Been a long time since I read the accident report. Also of note the F-16 pilot got promoted to Major after this incident yet the C-130 pilot did NOT. Ah yeah the Trash haulers in the ACC(fighter) world. Either way the results were terrible. And for a correction the F-16 backseater was actually a Banked pilot awaiting his fighter training slot for further training.
@@stefaan715 Because generally speaking civilian aircraft only use VHF while the military generally use UHF. But most radio facilities need to be able to handle both UHF and VHF equipped traffic. So they almost always broadcast on UHF and VHF at the same time.
They were a few hundred feet off the ground in a steep descent with power still coming back to the engines, the nose of the plane had been torn off, and they were hearing radio calls to eject. That doesn't mean you're wrong, necessarily, but it was a different situation than if it had happened at 5000+ feet.
I was was working there at the time of the crash. First thing we heard the crash and saw the smoke coming from the south end of the aircraft parking ramp. Then everyone was told to evacuate north. A lot of confusion but no panic. It was a horror-able day that I will always remember and be saddened by. So many lives changed forever that day.
@@kevinmalone3210 It still flew quite a distance without pilots, if the nose damage was catastrophic the plane would have been uncontrollable and crashed immediately after they ejected.
The collision happened at 300' with the F-16 at idle thrust, in a steep decent angle, compromised aerodynamics, and the engine probably ate chunks of radome, radar, and C-130 stabilator. The pilot had about 3 seconds to respond. Plus he had people with eyes on his aircraft telling him to eject.
The radome from the F16 landed at the end of the runway, that's how close they were to the base at collision. The F16, being a fly by wire aircraft and likely hemorrhaging hydraulic fluid, would not have been controllable for long.
You are awesome! Your work just gets better and better! I was an air traffic controller in the US Army at Wheeler Sack Army airfield in Fort Drum NY. So so so many mistakes done. To forget to hit the hotline for a plane handoff from FAA control to Air Force control is massive!🤗
I was in the AF at Charleston in 1965. Charleston was a Military Airlift command base, but, had a tenant organization, 444th fighter Wing, F-101 Voodoos. On that day, Col. Christopher, CO of the 444th took up a graduate pilot for an orientation flight. Takeoff was routine until 2 minutes into the flight when both engines flamed out. Realizing his course would take him over downtown Charleston, the Col. immediate put the F 101 into a hard left turn toward heavy forest. He also tried to get as much altitude as possible for a safe ejection. Now over the Cooper River, both ejected safely. The plane plunged into the river. The Col came down into a swimming pool, and the young pilot onto I-20, dodging a pickup truck. Both were unharmed. This was a prime example of situation awareness of where he was, and the complete opposite of the F-15 pilot and back seater.
@@cogitoergospud1 so anyone who accidently shoots someone whos out drunk driving kills someone who gives people drugs that kill them should not be prosecuted because it was a accident..got ya lol
I remember this all too well. It happened right in front of me the day before my 25th birthday. I was a Senior Airman mos Avionics Guidance and Control Specialist working for the 624th transient right where the crash took place. I was getting out of my car, heard a jet engine, looked left to the flight line and saw the jet barely miss my parked C-130s and crash approximately 200 feet from me. I saw it slide thru the wing of the parked C-141 and head toward building 900 Command and Control where my wife was working on the inside of the wall facing the flight line. My heart stopped. It missed and went to the side of the building where I could not see what took place. Rest in peace brave soldiers.
I was stationed at Pope, and saw the accident fireball as I was walking back to work after chow. It was the second of 3 Air Force air accidents that I'd (sorta) see in only a few months. One being at Kunsan, Korea in 1993, and another at McChord AFB Washington only two months after the Pope crash. Never witnessed another in the other 21 years of my career, but it was an odd coincidence. We heard the pilots were all safe within minutes, but the loss of the paratroopers was just awful. Horrible.
I remember this event as vividly as had it happened yesterday. We were sitting on the loading dock of our building on Ardennes street when we heard a loud explosion and saw the subsequent fire ball in the direction of "Green Ramp." One of our officers was there for Jump Master School. He showed up a few hours later. His uniform was scorched and his hands and face were covered in soot. I don't know if he got the "Soldier's Medal" for having rushed into the fire to rescue paratroopers caught up in the conflagration. If he did not, then someone dropped the ball. Afterwards he went on to become a Jump Master and earned our highest respect. Be well.
In the Face of Danger with the distinct possibility of death or critical injury, you don't think about saving yourself; you rush to help other fellow soldiers who need your assistance at that moment in time..... It was at Ft. Bragg SFTG 1962 & 1963 18Delta.years before the Green Ramp Disaster. RIP to all who were killed, and peace to those injured on that Wednesday, March 23, 1994.
Sad day. I was stationed at Pope AFB that day, at the Medical Clinic and was one of the first medics on site. It was like being in a war zone. I remember the Flight Surgeons yelling at us to backtrack our steps because there was reports of live ammo on the ground. I also remember seeing a jet engine on the back of a pickup truck on fire among other things. I will never forget that day.
I witnessed anF4B crash at MCAS, Yuma. The aircraft had become a ball of fire due to the loss in flight of the inflight refueling probe, but the pilot had the sense to input full nose down pitch just prior to hitting the silk The pilot and RIO successfully ejected and the plane went imediatly into the ground between the runway and taxiway. Thats how to prevent a runaway fighter jet.
Did my GA flight training at Wrgjht-Pat AFB Aero Club. We used to get F-16s from Ricken Chicken (Rickenbacker) do simulated flame outs because we were large and quiet. If you were in the air heard it on the radio you stayed away until they were done because we wanted nothing to do with a fast aircraft moving in a direction they could not see.
I remember this day well. I was 15 years old, my Dad was a doctor at Womack and we lived in Fayetteville. I was going to wilderness school at the time and had just gotten home for a visit. This was a bad day for everyone on the base.
I was station at Pope AFB when the accident occurred as a Jet Engine Mechanic. That F16 wasnt from Moody but from Pope AFB 74FS. It was a tragic loss of life and injuries. Im not so sure it was a good decision to have that much Air Traffic up there. In 1996 the F16s left Pope AFB. Sad day!
The most obvious cause I can see is whoever called "eject...." It seems like the pilots had several seconds available to them and the officers on the radio should have asked "are you controllable?" Or "Can you land?" At the very least they might have pointed the plane at an empty area. Seems like the damage would have primarily been up front. Maybe the flight control surfaces were still functional? I don't know those planes.
Very selfish attitude of those pilots. Seems like something went wrong in the training when you don´t spot another aircraft (isn´t that basicly their job?) and just decide to eject when you are not even remotely close to crashing. The contrast with the portuguese pilots in the video of a few weeks ago that were in a hardly responsive plane and the only thing they were thinking of was trying to ditch it in the sea. Knowing it would most likely end their lives.
I was thinking along those lines. I’m not sure they had time to think it through before ejection but hope they took others into consideration. Either way they have to live with the memory.
How much time and altitude did the Portuguese pilots have to work with? This F-16 was a few hundred feet off the ground, descending fast, and their nose had just been ripped off. They're not sure how controllable the aircraft is, and they're hearing radio calls telling them to eject. Did they make the right call? I don't know, but they had only a few seconds to make it because of the low altitude. That steep, engine-out descent also meant that the other aircraft would have been hidden from the pilot by the nose.
Maybe you should try playing a flight sim and see what you can see from the cockpit. It's not like your 3rd person games where you can see everything. Something infront and even slightly below the horizon is invisible, let alone when you are on approach with nose high. Heck, try "Warthunder" it's a free game and not even all that "realistic" just get in a jet plane, first person, and try to land. Tell me how well you could see infront and below you.
I was there; 30 years ago. Remember it like it was yesterday. 2/319 was on the last couple of days of a 5 day Field training exercise at Bragg. We heard the crash and saw the smoke. About 30-40 minutes later a full bird comes out in a Hummer to tell us all to go back to the baracks, call our parents, and hang tight until told otherwise. Some of my buddies had to go load wounded into medical vehicles. A very sad day for the 82nd and the rest of the millitary.
While a LOT of things went wrong here, I place most of the blame on the F-16 pilot. How could he possibly not see a huge C-130 right in front of him? and with the maneuverability of the F-16, he should have been able to avoid the C-130 even at close range. Also, both the pilot and crew member ejected from the F-16 with it still headed toward the runway. Did they even attempt to control the F-16? Did they try to at least divert it to an unpopulated area before ejecting? The pilot in command of the F-16 apparently did nothing to try and prevent or lessen the seriousness of this tragedy. They seemed to be more concerned with saving themselves than saving others. I am a USMC veteran (1977-1981) and flew aboard a C-130 a number of times. Shortly after leaving the military, I became a private pilot. As a pilot, you are responsible for your aircraft. If for example my aircraft sustained damage or suffered a mechanical failure, and it was headed straight for a heavily populated area, I would do everything I could to steer it away from that area. Obviously in a private plane, you do not have the option of ejecting or jumping out, but even if I had that option, I would stay with the plane all the way to the ground, doing everything I could to protect those on the ground. You are responsible for that plane the same way a captain is responsible for his ship. There is a reason the captain is the last person off a sinking ship. He has to give everybody else the chance to get off first, and if necessary, he goes down with the ship. That F-16 pilot should have done everything he could to protect those on the ground, even if it meant going down with the plane.
ok.. I'll explain this again.. I'm not a pilot but I know some and play flight sims.. ok. get in a flight sim in a jet.. try to see slightly below and infront of you.. what's that? There's a big instrument pannel, the nose, and the floor infront of you? What's that you can really only see maybe 1deg below horizon in level flight? Ok now go down to 300 feet, flaps extended to landing, gear down, get dirty.. get slow for landing.. get that nose a little high because you are slow and landing.. now how much can you see? That's just it.. you can't. Jesus.. just use your mind.. Ya.. if it was "in front" or "visible" to the F16 pilot he WOULD have seen it. He saw the other C13 that was pointed out to him that was miles away.. but this one was below and infront of him. This isn't GTA5 where you fly 3rd person from outside and behind the plane where you can see everything. Also.. what exactly makes you think the pilot didn't try to see if the plane was still flyable? If you read some news articles by first person's on the ground they say the F-16 came at them and was almost in 2 pieces or was in 2. IE from first hand stories it sounds like it was not just a fender bender on the nose cone.
Because it was below & in front of him, every vehicle has it's blind spots. The F-16 was simulating an engine failure, that means engine at flight idle producing almost no thrust, fighter planes do not glide, the fall in a controlled manner. The ATC in this case could have ordered either of the aircraft to go around but didn't. The F-16 pilot realized something was wrong and had throttled up at the last second to go around but his engine hadn't even spooled up before he hit the C-130. Yes, he could have stayed with the aircraft, but he had just collided with another airplane, and people with a better view of the situation then him were screaming for him to eject. Also the intake for the F-16s engine is on the underside below and behind the nose, debris from the collision was probably ingested into the engine, he was already slow, his engine had just been forced,and he didn't even know if he had intact lifting surfaces and flight controls. After ejection with the weight of the pilots, canopy, ejection seats removed from the front of the aircraft the CG would have shifted aft and shallowed out a decent. This has been seen several times in the past.
The next time you're driving your car, look at your front bumper. All you'll see is the dashboard. The F-16 on approach is traveling downhill, but its nose is pointed up. Not a crazy amount, but certainly enough to block the view of a C-130 ahead at a lower altitude. As far as the decision to eject is concerned, before criticizing the aircrew who were actually IN the damaged aircraft and in danger, get all the facts. If you don't KNOW that they didn't assess the damage and controllability of the aircraft, then your criticism is nothing more than armchair quarterbacking, and has no value.
I was home from Bragg healing a broken leg. Our Battalion wasn't there but our sister Batt was 1/504..A lot of the wounded ended up working in 3rd batt, 325, or in Vicenza (3/325) later..RIP Brothers.
Glaring errors here. The F-16 was not from Moody AFB. The tail flash did not say MY. The tail flash said FT for "Flying Tigers" which was the 23rd Fighter Wing assigned to Pope AFB with the F-16 belonging to the 74th FS of the 23rd Fighter Wing. Next, F-16's do not have Weapons System Officers. Most F-16 squadrons only have 1 or 2 two-seat F-16's that are used for training instruction and incentive flights. The guy in the back seat of that F-16 was not a WSO nor a Captain. It was an enlisted person on an incentive flight.
I had not heard of this accident. I am trying to figure out why the F16 to could not see the C130, as the F16 canopy allows very good vision for the pilot. Maybe it was below him.
I feel the same. I just don't understand how the F-16 pilot could not see C130 coming at him. He's sitting in a bubble cannopy at the tip of a pencil with clear views all the way around him. I see in the comments people are quick to blame the ATC. I'm quick to blame the pilot actually flying the airplane and using his eyes
I don’t fly F16’s but I do fly C172’s and it’s quite difficult to spot aircraft directly in front of you. Human eyes are drawn to movement, but when the approach angle between two planes is very low (in this case zero as they were both on final) the relative motion is very slight until the last few seconds when the lead aircraft suddenly appears to be rapidly growing larger. This is one reason why other comments say “see and avoid doesn’t work.” Every experienced pilot has seen its limitations. High AOA could’ve been a factor too (though the video didn’t seem to suggest that the F16 was in the flare yet), and the position of the sun can be a challenge too.
Surprised the C-130 was still controllable after being rear-ended into the horizontal stabilizer and elevator... This case is particularly sad because everyone at fault has lived, while all of those killed were completely innocent people on the ground which weren't otherwise involved with any of this... A very grim case of "Should've called in sick that day" for the troopers :-( Their duty is risky enough without out-of-control F-16s falling onto them...
This is typical Military CYA move! How could the F-16 Driver NOT see the LARGE aircraft at his 12!! From the video animation he was in PERFECT dogfight position, with a clear unobstructed view of another aircraft at his 12! And he WASN’T disciplined, that’s a miscarriage of justice!! This is one of the more disturbing videos I’ve seen on TFC! Thanks for another Fantastic episode!!
It was impossible for the F-16 pilot to see the C-130! Over 40 yrs air traffic controller talking to military planes. So, trust me on that or find my post above where I esplane.
I watched an A-7 Corsair flame-out on downwind at NAS Lemoore in the 1970s. Stood there and watched (and heard) the pilot successfully eject and land. Watched the seatpan strike the ground and bounce just before the pilot touched down. The aircraft continued down range, bounced on the left mainmount, come down again on the right mainmount and crash with a fireball. Very spectacular and no one was hurt.
Personally I don't think of it as human error but as an error in the process that insufficiently accounted for human nature (unless it is something really stupid like a pilot trying to show off).
I flew 60's there and evacuated 7 to the burn center at UNC Chapel Hill. A few days later I took the flew a MG from the medical command up for a visit. He walked out after his visit and told me that none of the 7 survived. It was a quiet flight back to Bragg
I don’t know, seems the F16 crew punched out before really evaluating whether the jet was controllable. I know they were low level but in the moment was the jet still flyable? I guess we’ll never know.
You’re right. I can totally see myself do all these things calmly, knowing that I have all the time in the world and that my aircraft was not damaged at all.
@@alaric_ The jet was flying too slow to have any manoeuvrability. It's what they call a low energy state. Even with ABs, it was too close to break away fast enough.
A couple of inaccuracies. First, the F-16 was stationed at Pope, not Moody. Pope at that time was a composite wing consisting of C-130s, F-16s and A-10s. Second, the F-16 landed between two C-141s, not C-130s. I speak from experience since I was the Air Force on-scene public affairs specialist at the crash site immediately after the accident. A terrible day but with a lot of people going above and beyond to help their brothers in arms.
Slow approach at iddle, with nose up angle, impossible to see clearly down and forward, aboard that F-16 the pilot's head was probably over 35 or 40° back, it was certainly very easy to miss the Herk ahead,
Scott Salmon was not a WSO. The F-16 is not designed for a WSO. Scott was a T-38 student in my flight when he was in UPT after this incident. He was just riding in the back seat on what we call an incentive ride.
I was at fort Bragg when this happened. I remember it as if it happened yesterday. I had several friends that were injured by the fire ball that swept across the ramp. May the troops that lots there lives forever r.i.p
Why would the F-16 pilots also check out their jet to see if they could still fly? And why wouldn't fly it down as far as he could to make sure it didn't hit anyone? The pilot was not reprimanded, why Not? He played a roll.
You are approaching fast in both airspeed and decent. You cannot see the plane in front, unless you can see through the bottom of your plane. You hit something at very low. Altitude. Radio says eject. Instinct says you do that. The time scales are so fast, the video does not pick that up. The pilotless plane is unfortunate on its trajectory but at that point you are not flying so you are not at fault. We watch these videos and many accidents are due to fine margins good or bad.
To all Pilots out there Military Commercial Cargo ect Thank you for your service and dedication to excellence You all don't get enough credit and my family appreciate you all thank you
Great great video! Your analysis is super extensive! Video realism untouched! How you learn so much about every event and are able to show it, is just simply amazing to me.
I was stationed at Moody in 1994. We had the 68th, 69th, (70th had been deactivated), the 307th (my squadron), and the 308th. There was no 74th FS at Moody. Plus, now my memory isn't as sharp as it once was, I don't remember a Moody jet crashing at Pope.
It ALWAYS sends an extra cold shiver down my spine when I see a C-130 involved air incident. I live in Los Angeles, will never forget the day Vanna White's boyfriend attempted to land a light plane, being flipped and slammed onto a runway at Van Nuys Airport, following the landing of a C-130. Could you include this story in one of your vids?
My friend was repairing the TACAN at the base when this happened and he was ordered to respond and provide assistance at the crash scene. Once the fire was out they had to guard the crash sight.
Because in an F-16, trying to see something below and just in front of you is like trying to see your front tires while driving an automobile......you can't. You would see the nose, instrument panel, and floor........plus when the F-16 is descending/slowing the nose is pointing slightly up. If they could have seen the C-130 they obviously would have taken action. Horrible what happened, RIP to those lost.
@@tjhookit Thanks, but I find that hard to believe. The F-16 is a combat aircraft. The nose is canted down to give good visibility in a dogfight. It has had very few losses. I am a pilot. When descending, the nose is pointed down, not up. I think it makes more sense that the the pilot was occupied in the cockpit. He had been alerted to the presence of another A/C in the vicinity, had spotted it, but it was the wrong aircraft. He felt it wasn't necessary to check for other traffic, and became preoccupied with the controller's instructions and preparing to land. I believe the controller bears full responsibility for these deaths.
@@stevewilson5546 Sounds like you would know better than I about it.....and considering the fact that I am not a pilot, I will concede that your opinion carries more weight than mine. Thanks for the reply
This story is missing information I lived about 5 miles from Pope AFB at the time.The weather that day had a very low ceiling.If you don't know what that means,it was very cloudy and they were low....
I grew up and live just a bit off Bragg (and Pope at the time) and this event is something that is always on our minds locally. TheFlightChannel is powerful, but it hit pretty close to home with this one. Thanks for sharing.
I was working at Pope AFB that day and saw the chute of one of the F-16 crew. The story here doesn’t totally follow what we saw and heard on the ground that day. It was a horrible day where the 82nd Airborne lost more men and women that day then any day since the Battle Of the Bulge. It will always be a day I will remember and morn those we lost.
I was an engine troop with the 2nd ALS. I watched the F16 collide with the C-130, pitch up, crew eject & hit the tarmac. The NTSB after families put pressure on Congressman & Senators to have the NTSB investigate, found Captain Jacyno responcible. The news came out when I was at Moody AFB, so was Jacyno, he was grounded, I retired shortly after, don't know the final out come. One of the unfortunate things was it ended Captain Raices career, wasn't even his fault.
Brings back memories....I was at Ft. Bragg as an LPN student assigned to WOMAC hospital. We were instructed to remove our student badges and assigned tasks for the mass casualty. I was given the task of going to the scene to help triage and transport patients.
Excellent work as always. How could that F16 crew NOT see that C130 directly in front of it? There were TWO sets of eyes instead of the usual one in the cockpit for the F16D. There's no excuse for this. The Air Force let these guys off way too easy.
One of those pilots may have been related to a high ranking officer such as a Colonel or General in the AF, and was able to escape accountability due to political clout. It doesn't make sense other wise that they were given a free pass after a major screw up
@@kevinmalone3210 At the time the opinion of the top general in the USAF was that fighter pilots don't make mistakes. This, & some questionable reorganization decisions directly contributed to this accident.
My Air Force Reserve unit would fly down to Pope AFB several times a year and do our weekends there to take advantage of the wider array of equipment they had to train on. There was a small shack we would hang out in during breaks in the action. We returned one time to find the shack was gone, and heard that it had been taken out by the F-16.
Seems to me the problem started when the F-16 pilot wanted to do a practice flame out landing during a busy time at the airfield, other planes landing. That caused him to have high AOA and not see the C-130, which he would have seen if he was in a normal approach (I think). Don't even think of doing anything out of the ordinary when other aircraft are in the area. I would put some blame on the pilot for this reason. Am I wrong??
@@bryanhubbell6528 No problem. I am not a pilot, and not in the military, so know very little about what is right or wrong in that situation. I was just going by what the video seemed to be showing.
Considering the F-16 has one of the greatest amounts of visibility for its crew from it's "glasshouse" canopy compared to almost every other military jet ever made, the pilot must have been blind...... the C-130 is one of the largest prop aircraft in the sky, and can be seen by a naked untrained eye from at least 6 kilometers...... I think the pilot of F-16 should have lost his wings, his operational awareness was very poor. If you can't see a large 4 engine prop aircraft from at least a kilometer, then you could never make a gun pass on an enemy jet... because you simply wouldn't see it..... it's only 25% of the size of a C-130.
The F16 was a trainer and they were doing instrument only flying at the time. thats why they didn't see the C-130 in front of them till the warning came from the tower
@@Dirks_NUMA_Files and John J Rambo, not to sound mean, but you're both extremely off target here. See my response to PT W above. No, the F-16 pilot wouldn't see the C-130 below his nose. The F-16 two-seater is a fully combat-functional aircraft, and a simulated flameout pattern is a VISUAL maneuver, and not an instrument maneuver.
With a background in rail, mid-air crashes have always seemed strange to me, and it has been hard to understand how, with so much space, they can even happen at all. This video helps me understand it a bit better.
I honestly feel the same way God bless everyone involved but I just don't understand how he didn't see a big old C-130 right in front of him • I know the F-16 is a highly capable machine I just don't know how he couldn't pull left or pull right or anything with so much space being up in the air but again I have no real real idea on how things work just posing the question
@@skatelifeche Deciding to practice a flame-out approach and landing might have been part of the problem. You don't want to make any sudden moves even if the jet is designed for that.
So much air movement control is by voice command. Obviously one cannot have signals and interlockings in the air, but it is possible to use radar plots to calculate on ground-based computers anticipated movements and to output warnings to traffic controllers. Of course all this stuff isn't cheap !
@@skatelifeche: I hope you realize that it's a runway that all those planes are intending to approach, so the two ATC teams are managing all that traffic *to converge toward the same area* while maintaining proper separation in position and speed. These planes are flying hundreds of miles per hour relative to each other, which means there isn't much time to react, especially when the pilots are busy with many details in preparing to land or practice emergencies procedures. The ATC messed up by not separating the planes, which is why they were punished. The F-16D was performing a simulated flameout, and was descending with a high angle of attack. When the jet is pointed upwards, its pilots can't see directly in front or downward of their flight path. Think of the Concorde when it flares out to land: its nose section bends downward to help its pilots see the runway. The F-16D can't do that.
I'm sorry for the loss of all those men, I've been shaking my head the whole video, couldn't the small jet have landed, if not it appears it could've been diverted and flew to an isolated area, it seems like it was abandoned to just careen like an out of controlled missile, I'm still dumbfounded, RIP to the guys on the ground, senseless loss of lives.
My deepest sympathies for those who lost loved ones in this devastating accident. However, I seriously question just how could the F-16 not see the C 130 in front of it and steer clear. These are fighter pilots--the best of the best and trained in making tight turns and maneuvers. One would think with sophisticated onboard radar, the F-16 pilot should have had all the warnings in the world to avoid the crash but then I am not a pilot. Even cars nowadays have collision avoidance systems and one would think that advanced fighters would have similar equipment.
Because the F-16 was above and behind, he was practicing a landing after engine failure. His engine was at idle thrust and he was decending in a nose high attitude, he couldn't see the C-130 because it would have been right about where the rudder pedals in the F-16 were. Fighter jets do not glide well, and the technology to see through the aircraft structure didn't exist until the F-35.
This ramming reminds me about the PSA Flight 182 - where a Boeing failed to see a small Cessna flying in front of them a bit lower as they were approaching landing. That collision happened because the pilot could not see that small plane that blended in with the ground and looking downwards was a bit of blindspot in the field of vision for that plane. Going in for a landing also brings much extra work for the pilots so they are focused on much other things and easily miss looking out for planes. And even if one see a plane coming heading for disaster, do things happens so fast that it is too late to avoid a collision. I think of when a F4 Phantom with no radar and faulty everything all of a sudden saw a DC9 coming their way - the F4 pilot desperatly made a turn and dived towards the ground trying to save the other plane... But it was all too late. The wing of the F4 Phantom did decapitate the cockpit off the other plane - and the two halfs of that plane came crashing down towards the ground and killing everyone inside the plane. And the pilot on the faulty F4 Phantom could not eject because of the faulty electrical system in his plane. So the RIO in the backseat became the only survivor of this tragic accident.
It is usually the enlisted personnel who are blamed and disciplined, and officers are given a pass. I know this from experience as an enlisted person in the US army in the 80's.
There used to be a poster on the wall by our shop of a WW2 looking fighter nose into the ground, with some blurb about fod, but everyone knows pilots can make deadly mistakes.
I went to high school with one of the guys killed. Phil Harvey. After graduation he joined the Army and I joined the Marine Corps. I think we had around 10 guys from our graduating class join one branch or another with 4 of us becoming jarheads. I didn't know about Phil being involved until 8 months later when I was on a float and of all the odds, the one guy who joined the Navy was on the Belleau Wood, bumped into me and told me. Pretty wretched 6 months on ship after hearing that.
I was one of the paratroopers out there that day. I saw the F-16 coming right at us and turned to run. It was traveling 450 mph when it hit, and it it all happened so fast. It took off my left leg right below the knee, and the fireball burned 43% of my body. I was placed into an induced coma for 3 weeks, and the memorial service had already taken place when they woke me. The chaplain brought in a VCR and watched the service with me. He wouldn't tell me who had died. I found out as the names were read on tv. I was the last soldier to leave the hospital alive. Spc. Lumbert had lost both legs and hands and was burned over 88% of his body. He would suffer for over 9 months before becoming the final casualty. RIP Marty! RIP to all of the soldiers who died!
You displayed incredible fortitude to recover from such a terrible accident. I’m sure the recovery was immensely difficult. I appreciate you sharing your comment. You have my utmost respect and deepest condolences on the loss of your brothers. My prayers are with you.
Just stumbled upon this, sorry to hear about your injuries I hope you recovered somewhat or mostly. Can you tell me what division, brigade, regiment, battalion, company you were in?
I'm very sorry to hear this. I came across your channel about 4 years ago by one of your tutorial videos and to find this comment absolutely devastated me. Hope your doing fine now.
Jason, sorry you had to endure this. I know you still have the pain and nightmares. I hope you find peace brother. You were a survivor for a reason
God bless you
I personally know a family whose husband/father was involved in this accident. Many men continue to bear unseen scars all these years later. Praying for their peace, especially this time of year.
AMEN..
I'm desperately looking for the name of the simulator lol
Peace!🙂
Prayers given for everyone affected by these event. Very sad and tragic event.
@@nothingbutplanes DCS
I felt the hand of God that day. I was scheduled to be in the stick of jumpers waiting on Green Ramp to load up. As I was heading out for pre-jump our Ops NCO caught me and said that he'd had me pulled from the jump because he'd found a better one for me a couple of days later. We were working in the motor pool later that day when we heard the explosion and saw the fireball. We had no idea what had happened until Ops called out all of our medics and pulled all our ambulances for the rescue operation. God rest the souls who were lost that day. I cry every time I see this.
I was injured during PT a couple of weeks before and due to a profile I was scratched from the jump. My platoon sergeant put another medic in my place who was killed. It’s haunting…I’ve had this happen a couple of times, and to be honest, I often wonder why me?
One of the most stressful civilian or military job is working as an ATC. Even more stressful is being an ATC "trainee" and found at-fault for a collision and multiple fatalities. The PTSD and guilty would be overwhelming.
Just graduated at the marine atc school house. I’m gonna pray everyday before work that I don’t kill anyone
Or you can be Peter Nielsen and get murdered by an Russian architect whose family died even if it wasn't entirely your fault
@@wychowanek90 I saw that. Lmao
@@wychowanek90 I see what u did there lol
@@wychowanek90 Good one
I was stationed at Pope when this happened. I was approximately 3000 to 4000 ft from accident and heard a loud pop, but didn’t realize a plane had crashed until a few minutes later when I saw the fire and heard all of the fire trucks. A day I will never forget for the rest of my life.
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Was at Pope CAB that day. Was standing in the Security Police parking lot when it happened.
Ment to write AFB, auto correct.
I was at SOC HQ (old confinement facility) and we first thought the 10th Marines, their arty, were firing out of the impact zone.
@@rayhoekstra5515 pope had a history of crashes there. An EC-135 and an F14 slammed the end of the runway in the early 90’s. And numerous IFE’s also.
This is an interesting crash because a collision with no fatalities on both planes but many on the ground (tragic) 😔
An ironic situation.
a guy told me that the name of this simulator is fsx, he said he was just waiting for someone to confirm
Reminds me of the train track debate where you have to decide whether to divert the train to purposefully kill one to avoid killing several.
It annoys me that this is not one of the 99 out of 100 times, where civil aviation would undergo a major change. To my knowledge, military aircraft still do not self-destruct upon ejection. Yes, it's a double jeopardy for the escaped pilots, and still places risk on the ground, but the explosion doesn't have to be large to take apart the aircraft into enough pieces to make it less deadly, surely? That is a financial above life action that civil aviation would not have had the luxury of for sure. I think it was the part that went down as pilot error, but that's the problem of ejection. How can you make that decision correctly? Essentially you are abandoning a lost aircraft, but in this case that isn't explained 100% and the simulation shows the aircraft flew on, so maintained that ability.
@@nothingbutplanes Does Microsoft not contain military aircraft? I thought he would be using the latest one?
My husband was one of the Army doctors stationed there. They spent days identifying the remains of the deceased. Heartbreaking
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It’s eerie being stationed here and training over this exact location as a paratrooper. It’s always a reminder of the deadly nature of our profession.
Thank you for your service my friend.
Prayers and well wishes sent from Alabama.
God Bless from New Jersey.
Is war not enough of a reminder?
@@TheJingles007 we don't see war all the time, we do see green ramp almost daily.
If Covid didn't screw up all our jumps we'ed be going there twice a month.
I was a medic at Ft. Bragg that day. I was working at a TMC when it happened and did not witness it. It was all hands on deck. We used our FLA to transport 4 soldiers with moderate burns to a burn ward in Chapel Hill. Burned flesh has a distinct sickly sweet/metallic smell. That is what I remember most.
Biodiesel jet fuel does not burst into flames.
Therefore ... _no friendly fire._
I was a pilot stationed at Pope AFB in the 2nd AS and knew the entire crew of the Herk. I had completed my out processing and was leaving the next day for a PCS to Little Rock AFB when this accident happened. Your title should read "Air Force F-16 collides with C-130 over North Carolina," as the Herk was hit from behind. The Herk crew did a remarkable job of recovering the plane without additional loss of life.
Yes they did and they were in no way responsible.
F-16 lost nose cone, pilots with ejection seat didn’t bother to check whether the plane can fly or not and bailed out early.
C130 has potential horizontal stabilizer damage, no ejection seats and pilots decided to continue flying to check controllability of aircraft whether can land safely. Can’t imagine what they were thinking when they saw the scene on the ground.
They were thinking theyd be court martialed, but accountability is only for us talentless serfs. Easier and cheaper to blame the ATC and train new ones than train new pilots.
Before you eject you should be thinking "where is my plane going to hit the ground?" Back in the early 80's a co-worker who had been in the US Air Force told me this story. He was in the control tower at an US Air Force base in Germany when he hear this going on over the radio. A US Air Force F-4 had lost hydraulics or flight controls so the crew needed to eject. If the crew ejected from the F-4 it could of possibly crashed into a town that was ahead and kill people on the ground. Instead of ejecting the crew rolled the F-4 180 degrees and crashed the plane into the ground rather than taking a chance of killing people on the ground.
They are air force pilotes, they don't care like the navy aviators
Lotta hate here. Also a lot of ignorance.
@@sd906238 That's a mighty big statement/assumption that both crew decided to kill themselves by rolling 180 degrees and flying into the ground. No crew would do that.
I served as an 11B Paratrooper at Fort Bragg NC and had many jumps out of Pope AFB. I remember hearing about this incident when I first got to Bragg in 2002 but never remember hearing too many details. 20 years later I'm finally seeing a video documenting what actually happened. I'm glad someone put this together, helps put things into perspective from someone who's been to where this tragedy took place all those years ago.RIP to all those paratroopers who lost their life that day.
I was there when this happened. I had weekend duty the weekend before so I was off that day… think it was a Wednesday. I lived in the dorms nearest the runways. The courtyard in view of the planes coming and going and was outside studying for my night school History class at Campbell University which had a Satellite campus at Pope. Pope is surrounded by Fort Bragg. Booms and explosions are common and you get used to it after a while. I had my back to the runway and didn’t flinch with the boom from the crash and didn’t know until an SP in my dorm ran past and said there was a crash. The end of the ramp looked like Armageddon. The paratroopers were all sitting in full packs and couldn’t run because in full pack they waddle to the planes. They sit near the fence in the grass until they load up. The aircraft struck was ful of fuel and its crew chief was on board but saw the plane and made a guick exit. The F16 I was told tried to full throttle the aircraft to clear the runway and crash over in the fields on Bragg but the nosecone was gone and it skipped off the ramp in a bounce to where it crashed after it struck first where I marshaled my C130 out the day before. F16s land with a nose high angle and have to fly instruments almost without site of anything below, which is why they did not see the 130… Only discrepancy in your story I found was the wrecked C130 actually landed at nearby Seymour Johnson before returning to pope the next day… Never will forget that…Just recently ran into a Paratrooper who was there and in charge of some of those who died… he was never the same and we had a long tearful talk on its anniversary last year. Small world. Air Force one and the President came a day later. Our base commander was reassigned to The Pentagon… I got orders to Ramstein and left… the F16s are no longer stationed at Pope as it is designed for C130s and Warthogs and transport planes…
My recollection was the C-130 that was hit did a go around and landed soon after. The feathered all four props and egressed the plane right near the runway.
Future video recommendation: A Navy P-3C and a Convair 990 operated by NASA collided while on final approach to Moffett Field Naval Air Station in 1973. It could make an interesting story in your format if you can recreate the unique aircraft involved.
What about Airspray tanker 86 it crashed in 2003 and killed both pilots. It was in Cranbrook B.C. (Google for reference
@@Adriatic1290 Sounds like a good one to cover, too. I'd imagine the creator of these videos would appreciate any and all ideas from their fans.
what is the simulator please
If the channel owner is reading this, watch the video "Moffett Field Air Tragedy - The Story of Sole Survivor, Bruce Mallibert" for details that would help the event reconstruction.
Probably wasn't a "C" model in 1973. Good idea for a video though. Another would be the at-sea ditching of VP-9s P-3 out of Adak in 1978. (Runaway prop)
A fighter pilot who can't see a C-130 in his face has no right to be in that seat. Situation awareness is such a key factor in their jobs for christ sake.
angle of attack made the c-130 invisible, where the mistake was is continuing the decent while doing the go-around instead of breaking off.
EXACTLY CORRECT!! And he wasn’t even disciplined!! Typical Military CYA move...
The prevailing opinion at the highest level of USAF leadership at the time was that fighter pilots were not capable of making mistakes.
In my limited experience as passenger in a small plane, I was impressed at how little contrast was available when up in the air. It was as if the light coming down from above washed out half of what I was looking at.
Much different from looking at mountains etc. while traveling in a car.
I agree. I said the same thing. Like how you collide with someone directly in front of you and not try to maneuver? Had to be on dope or drunk 🥴
I can't imagine the feeling when the pilots, on their parachutes saw the fireball and realized they had killed dozens of men. RIP to all who lost their lives.
They landed picked up their chutes, high fived, yelled Danger Zone! Then went and got food.
You can only imagine what the pilots felt, if you've been through the same catastrophe
Yeah, I feel a truly situational aware and selfless pilot would have made a better attempt at ditching the plane in a safer manner prior to ejecting. RIP and thank you for your service to those who lost their lives.
@@usernamesrlamo it would be very hard to know where the dang jet would land plus the jet telling them to eject would have them under huge stress to do so in that situation.. I saw another military jet where the 2 pilots didn't listen to the calls of the jet to eject, n both men passed away that day.. It was clear by their refusal to eject that day that they refused bcuz the jet woulda crashed in a suburban area killing innocent ppl, instead they steered the jet into an area where no ppl were n sacrificed themselves to save others but i'm sure they woulda ejected if they had just a few more seconds to do so, may they RIP..
They didn't react like you hoped they would have. They were relieved of duty because they failed to spend 3 seconds and direct their plane to an open field
I was there that day, the pilots bailed out and landed not far from the Engine shop where I was working. I had just come back from the Test cell when this happened. I just got out of the truck when we heard the pilots eject. then the engines caught and the F16 took off toward Green ramp. All those troopers on the deck and they couldn't go anywhere with all the gear on. I took the shop truck and was able to get three guys to Womack. After that the base was locked down and I couldn't get back in. I'll never forget that day
Your channel is proof that talking is not always needed. Great content, love it.
Who called for the F-16 crew to eject? I’ve flown the F-16(N)…and first thing I would do is climb and see if the jet was flying. I wouldn’t do anything somebody on the ground said to do. Plus, couldn’t see a C-130 under the nose? Don’t doubt that the PIC didn’t see the C-130 but maybe look out the window more.
I never realized planes had so many blind spots! It’s a big sky and mid air collisions blow my mind.
This happened at 300 feet, and they had been descending, so it may not have been clear whether they could climb (or how much control they had) or if they were about to hit the ground. Another poster said that the eject call came from a USMC C-130 waiting for departure. At the angle-of-attack for the flame-out approach, the C-130 would have been obscured by the nose.
If you are familiar with the F-16 then take one guess where a bunch of the debris from the collision went......right into the engine, plus your F-16 was at idle thrust at the time, you are at 300', your radome is gone, engine fodded, you really think you have time to spool up the engine, and hope it responds?
@@kdrapertrucker yup, at least ‘zoom and boom’…
DullOnion, if you've flown the F-16N (in anything besides a simulator), you would know that when doing a straight-in SFO the pilot wouldn't be able to see the mishap C-130, and you'd probably feel pretty comfortable that you had the traffic situation doped because all he was hearing about was the other C-130 in the pattern that was not a conflict which he had already visually acuired. You would also know that with the radome gone, both AOA probes are gone with it. If you lose both AOA probes the jet is uncontrollable. The only remaining choice was to eject. For those who think this video presentation is even remotely accurate, it is not.
Lost my friend Alan that day. We served together in the 3/325th ABCT in Vicenza , Italy. RIP Alan. AATW!
I was there on Greenramp at Pope AFB when this occurred. I was in 2/504th (82nd Airborne) on the tarmac preparing for a jump. It was a very clear day, deep blue skies without a cloud. RIP to our brothers that lost their lives on that terrible day.
I was there in the office shop area near the flightline that day. Ran outside to see the smoke billowing from the C-141siiting on the ramp. Sad day for USAF and our Army brothers and Sisters.
I was stationed at Ft Bragg when this happened, I remember it like yesterday
Something almost similar to this happened around sunset on a drop zone that I was controlling West of Dallas TX. A flight of 6 or 7 C-130s were inbound to drop practice cargo and I noted an F-16 crossing the flight path. Thinking that he cleared the area, the dummy circled and pointed nose down to take a closer look at the "A" that's the point of impact. The 130s were rapidly closing in and I radioed the 16 to clear the area or collision with one of the 130s will happen. He immediately turned West to clear the area and not 30 seconds later, the flight flew over their release point. I radioed to find if any of them if they saw the 16 lingering over my drop zone and they stated that they didn't see it. This sorta shook me that there would've been one ugly accident if he had stayed a few seconds longer.
I flew on C130's in USCG and one of my jobs is running our camera system on patrols. I caught fighter jets twice coming real close to us unannounced. Both times were F-16's. Our pilots had no idea they were there. We don't just do cargo and fly straight all the time. Not saying there was a high chance of mid-air, but they made it a possibility that it could happen.
@@herc1305 As an old USAF C-130 "camera guy" myself, amongst other things, I’ve seen too many fighter jocks of all types making the skies too dangerous far too often, even playing chicken with us at times. I don’t get the mind-set. Boredom? Self-centeredness? On the other hand, I’ve had Dutch F-16’s shoot down bad guys coming to get us. So, there’s that.
For those asking how the F-16 pilots couldn’t see the big C-130 right in front of them, please notice that the C-130 was flying BELOW the nose level of the F-16 and that the F-16 has a high instrument panel. The F-16 pilots couldn't see the C-130 below them with the large instrument panel in their way. It was up to the military and civilian ATC to warn each pilot and each other of their proximity. They failed to do so, which led to the collision.
True, however, the F-16 had radar. Why couldn't the F-16 pilot see the C-130 on his radar scope?
Excuse me the F-16 has radar & a HUD!!
@@timonsolus Landing is a visual operation except in the most extreme circumstances.
We were at Pope when this happened. My husband was rescue crew chief for the Pope AFB fire department. They were able to respond immediately because they were already out on a drill and in position. Probably the only fortunate thing that happened that day.
Days later during an interview he and other firefighters were describing what happened and how they also had to concentrate on other planes on the ground. The reporter asked
“Who cares about planes?”
She thought that with so many casualties the last thing anyone would care about is saving aircraft. What she didn’t understand was that the planes were full of jet fuel and had they become engulfed the entire incident would have been 100x worse.
I know its beyond morbid but mid-air collisions are fascinating just because so many things must have gone wrong at just the wrong time
Just means you are normal. Same reason people slow down and look when they pass an auto accident.
Like all the stars aligned for all the wrong reasons.
It's a puzzle and also we humans have a "taste" for death in what seems every fasion.
Yeah mate, Fascinating if you're not involved. Get a life!
C-130 is in front of F-16 , which he can see, looses sight of it, crashes into its tail with minimal damage, ejects from cockpit and allows jet to crash , kill and injure over 20 soldiers . Pilot found partially at fault. Something doesn't sound right.
As a C-130 flyer stationed at Pope AFB when this incident happened, along with knowing all C-130 crew members involved, having been fully briefed about the investigation findings, and being an eye-witness to this incident, I on a single viewing of this presentation noted 18 factual errors or omissions of relevant information. Beginning with the title. The C-130 did not collide with the F-16. The F-16 collided with the C-130. Other errors include; Capt Salmon was a C-130 liaison pilot on an F-16 familiarization flight not an F-16 WSO, all aircraft involved were stationed at Pope AFB and were painted with the FT (Flying Tigers) tail flash, the 23rd Operations Group was at Pope AFB not Moody as was the 74th FS. Along with other minor errors.
Other relevant information that should be noted include; both aircraft were below 300 feet at the time of collusion, the C-130 aircraft were communicating with tower using a UHF frequency and the F-16s were using a VHF frequency but tower was not simulcasting, the F-16 SFO approach is flown with a significantly high AOA resulting in the nose of the aircraft blocking a large field of view directly in front of the aircraft. Additionally, an F-16 approach speed is 160-170 knots. A C-130 on short final will be below 130 knots. There was a Marine C-130 awaiting departure that made the “eject, eject, get out” call over the VHF frequency. There were other officers and enlisted receiving disciplinary action than just the two officers and three enlisted. The C-130 involved was 68-10942 being flow by a crew from the 2nd AS.
Do you know if the 74th is still at Pope? I'm guessing the TFC looked it up and that they're at Moody now. I do know that the F-16s were removed from Pope after this crash. A former Flying Tiger maintenance troop.
Glad you chimed in here. I've seen the same misinformation about this incident in other videos to which I commented. I was at 9 AF HQ Stan/Eval at the time and all the Pope guys fell under our purview. C-130 guy myself. Also to point out is when the Marine crew made the eject calls I'm going to assume the F-16 crew just bailed without trying any controllability check. Command ejection? Not sure how they had their seats set up. Been a long time since I read the accident report.
Also of note the F-16 pilot got promoted to Major after this incident yet the C-130 pilot did NOT. Ah yeah the Trash haulers in the ACC(fighter) world.
Either way the results were terrible.
And for a correction the F-16 backseater was actually a Banked pilot awaiting his fighter training slot for further training.
Wonder why they use vhf and uhf at the same time. Huge loss of sa for the crews.
@@stefaan715 Because generally speaking civilian aircraft only use VHF while the military generally use UHF. But most radio facilities need to be able to handle both UHF and VHF equipped traffic. So they almost always broadcast on UHF and VHF at the same time.
@@my-yt-inputs2580 true but aircraft in the pattern should be on the same freq imo
I was at at Camp Lejeune when this occured. it showed that training can be just as dangerous as combat
I know they’re routine but you hear about those accidents all the time. Those crashes seem sadder to me.
@@mayneeyuh8713 actually yes, there was talk about doing a joint mission with the army and air force. but the igher ups could not agree.
I've been guilty of some dumbassery in my time, but this takes the cake.
Dumbassery? You team a FAA controller too lazy to coordinate with a military controller, a trainee controller bad things are going to happen.
Reading about those 24 on the ground was a real gut punch.
Bad call to eject straight away. A short handling check would have ensured either a landing or onto a safe heading away from the base.
They were a few hundred feet off the ground in a steep descent with power still coming back to the engines, the nose of the plane had been torn off, and they were hearing radio calls to eject. That doesn't mean you're wrong, necessarily, but it was a different situation than if it had happened at 5000+ feet.
@@michaelmerrell8540 also the engine probably ingested debris, there was no time, and they had run out of altitude.
Said the armchair quarterback who wasn't at risk and doesn't know if they did that or not.
I was was working there at the time of the crash. First thing we heard the crash and saw the smoke coming from the south end of the aircraft parking ramp. Then everyone was told to evacuate north. A lot of confusion but no panic. It was a horror-able day that I will always remember and be saddened by. So many lives changed forever that day.
Had the pilot not ejected would the F16 have been controllable enough to land?
Good question, but the AF crash investigators would know. The pilots just said the nose of the aircraft was ripped off after the collision.
@@kevinmalone3210 It still flew quite a distance without pilots, if the nose damage was catastrophic the plane would have been uncontrollable and crashed immediately after they ejected.
The collision happened at 300' with the F-16 at idle thrust, in a steep decent angle, compromised aerodynamics, and the engine probably ate chunks of radome, radar, and C-130 stabilator. The pilot had about 3 seconds to respond. Plus he had people with eyes on his aircraft telling him to eject.
@@MrChopsticktech no, it didn't fly "quite a distance." The jet was no longer controllable.
The radome from the F16 landed at the end of the runway, that's how close they were to the base at collision. The F16, being a fly by wire aircraft and likely hemorrhaging hydraulic fluid, would not have been controllable for long.
I was stationed at Ft Bragg when this occurred and working in the ER. Horrific day, still can’t stand the smell of JP4 to this day…
You are awesome! Your work just gets better and better! I was an air traffic controller in the US Army at Wheeler Sack Army airfield in Fort Drum NY. So so so many mistakes done. To forget to hit the hotline for a plane handoff from FAA control to Air Force control is massive!🤗
I was in the AF at Charleston in 1965. Charleston was a Military Airlift command base, but, had a tenant organization, 444th fighter Wing, F-101 Voodoos. On that day, Col. Christopher, CO of the 444th took up a graduate pilot for an orientation flight. Takeoff was routine until 2 minutes into the flight when both engines flamed out. Realizing his course would take him over downtown Charleston, the Col. immediate put the F 101 into a hard left turn toward heavy forest. He also tried to get as much altitude as possible for a safe ejection. Now over the Cooper River, both ejected safely. The plane plunged into the river. The Col came down into a swimming pool, and the young pilot onto I-20, dodging a pickup truck. Both were unharmed. This was a prime example of situation awareness of where he was, and the complete opposite of the F-15 pilot and back seater.
24 dead 100 injured and all they got was a slap on the ass..long jail sentences need to be applied
For an accident?
Accident, not criminal negligence!
@@cogitoergospud1 so next time im drunk and driving and kill people im gonna claim it was a accident to
@@cogitoergospud1 ask all the people in prison for accidents lol
@@cogitoergospud1 so anyone who accidently shoots someone whos out drunk driving kills someone who gives people drugs that kill them should not be prosecuted because it was a accident..got ya lol
I remember this all too well. It happened right in front of me the day before my 25th birthday. I was a Senior Airman mos Avionics Guidance and Control Specialist working for the 624th transient right where the crash took place. I was getting out of my car, heard a jet engine, looked left to the flight line and saw the jet barely miss my parked C-130s and crash approximately 200 feet from me. I saw it slide thru the wing of the parked C-141 and head toward building 900 Command and Control where my wife was working on the inside of the wall facing the flight line. My heart stopped. It missed and went to the side of the building where I could not see what took place. Rest in peace brave soldiers.
I was stationed at Pope, and saw the accident fireball as I was walking back to work after chow. It was the second of 3 Air Force air accidents that I'd (sorta) see in only a few months. One being at Kunsan, Korea in 1993, and another at McChord AFB Washington only two months after the Pope crash. Never witnessed another in the other 21 years of my career, but it was an odd coincidence. We heard the pilots were all safe within minutes, but the loss of the paratroopers was just awful. Horrible.
I was a medic who responded to this. Life hasn’t been the same since.
I remember this event as vividly as had it happened yesterday.
We were sitting on the loading dock of our building on Ardennes street when we heard a loud explosion and saw the subsequent fire ball in the direction of "Green Ramp."
One of our officers was there for Jump Master School.
He showed up a few hours later. His uniform was scorched and his hands and face were covered in soot.
I don't know if he got the "Soldier's Medal" for having rushed into the fire to rescue paratroopers caught up in the conflagration.
If he did not, then someone dropped the ball.
Afterwards he went on to become a Jump Master and earned our highest respect.
Be well.
In the Face of Danger with the distinct possibility of death or critical injury, you don't think about saving yourself; you rush to help other fellow soldiers who need your assistance at that moment in time..... It was at Ft. Bragg SFTG 1962 & 1963 18Delta.years before the Green Ramp Disaster. RIP to all who were killed, and peace to those injured on that Wednesday, March 23, 1994.
Sad day. I was stationed at Pope AFB that day, at the Medical Clinic and was one of the first medics on site. It was like being in a war zone. I remember the Flight Surgeons yelling at us to backtrack our steps because there was reports of live ammo on the ground. I also remember seeing a jet engine on the back of a pickup truck on fire among other things. I will never forget that day.
Thank you for all you did to help the wounded.
I witnessed anF4B crash at MCAS, Yuma. The aircraft had become a ball of fire due to the loss in flight of the inflight refueling probe, but the pilot had the sense to input full nose down pitch just prior to hitting the silk The pilot and RIO successfully ejected and the plane went imediatly into the ground between the runway and taxiway. Thats how to prevent a runaway fighter jet.
Biodiesel jet fuel does not burst into flames.
Therefore ... _no friendly fire._
I was stationed at Pope when this happened and worked with Scott. He was a banked F-16 pilot, not a WSO.
Did my GA flight training at Wrgjht-Pat AFB Aero Club. We used to get F-16s from Ricken Chicken (Rickenbacker) do simulated flame outs because we were large and quiet. If you were in the air heard it on the radio you stayed away until they were done because we wanted nothing to do with a fast aircraft moving in a direction they could not see.
I remember this day well. I was 15 years old, my Dad was a doctor at Womack and we lived in Fayetteville. I was going to wilderness school at the time and had just gotten home for a visit. This was a bad day for everyone on the base.
I was station at Pope AFB when the accident occurred as a Jet Engine Mechanic. That F16 wasnt from Moody but from Pope AFB 74FS. It was a tragic loss of life and injuries. Im not so sure it was a good decision to have that much Air Traffic up there. In 1996 the F16s left Pope AFB. Sad day!
The Composite Wing in CONUS was not one of Merrill McPeak's wiser ideas.
The most obvious cause I can see is whoever called "eject...." It seems like the pilots had several seconds available to them and the officers on the radio should have asked "are you controllable?" Or "Can you land?" At the very least they might have pointed the plane at an empty area. Seems like the damage would have primarily been up front. Maybe the flight control surfaces were still functional? I don't know those planes.
Very selfish attitude of those pilots. Seems like something went wrong in the training when you don´t spot another aircraft (isn´t that basicly their job?) and just decide to eject when you are not even remotely close to crashing. The contrast with the portuguese pilots in the video of a few weeks ago that were in a hardly responsive plane and the only thing they were thinking of was trying to ditch it in the sea. Knowing it would most likely end their lives.
I was thinking along those lines. I’m not sure they had time to think it through before ejection but hope they took others into consideration. Either way they have to live with the memory.
Unless they had x ray eyes and looked through the console how would you expect them to see the plane?
How much time and altitude did the Portuguese pilots have to work with? This F-16 was a few hundred feet off the ground, descending fast, and their nose had just been ripped off. They're not sure how controllable the aircraft is, and they're hearing radio calls telling them to eject. Did they make the right call? I don't know, but they had only a few seconds to make it because of the low altitude. That steep, engine-out descent also meant that the other aircraft would have been hidden from the pilot by the nose.
Maybe you should try playing a flight sim and see what you can see from the cockpit. It's not like your 3rd person games where you can see everything. Something infront and even slightly below the horizon is invisible, let alone when you are on approach with nose high. Heck, try "Warthunder" it's a free game and not even all that "realistic" just get in a jet plane, first person, and try to land. Tell me how well you could see infront and below you.
@@michaelmerrell8540 what pourtugese pilots? This was U.S. air Force pilots.
I was there; 30 years ago. Remember it like it was yesterday. 2/319 was on the last couple of days of a 5 day Field training exercise at Bragg. We heard the crash and saw the smoke. About 30-40 minutes later a full bird comes out in a Hummer to tell us all to go back to the baracks, call our parents, and hang tight until told otherwise. Some of my buddies had to go load wounded into medical vehicles. A very sad day for the 82nd and the rest of the millitary.
When you think about it, this is the first time where ejection was not a good thing...
The F-16D never had a Weapons System Officer (WSO). Captains Joseph Jacyno and Scott Salmon were both pilots.
While a LOT of things went wrong here, I place most of the blame on the F-16 pilot. How could he possibly not see a huge C-130 right in front of him? and with the maneuverability of the F-16, he should have been able to avoid the C-130 even at close range. Also, both the pilot and crew member ejected from the F-16 with it still headed toward the runway. Did they even attempt to control the F-16? Did they try to at least divert it to an unpopulated area before ejecting? The pilot in command of the F-16 apparently did nothing to try and prevent or lessen the seriousness of this tragedy. They seemed to be more concerned with saving themselves than saving others.
I am a USMC veteran (1977-1981) and flew aboard a C-130 a number of times. Shortly after leaving the military, I became a private pilot. As a pilot, you are responsible for your aircraft. If for example my aircraft sustained damage or suffered a mechanical failure, and it was headed straight for a heavily populated area, I would do everything I could to steer it away from that area. Obviously in a private plane, you do not have the option of ejecting or jumping out, but even if I had that option, I would stay with the plane all the way to the ground, doing everything I could to protect those on the ground. You are responsible for that plane the same way a captain is responsible for his ship. There is a reason the captain is the last person off a sinking ship. He has to give everybody else the chance to get off first, and if necessary, he goes down with the ship. That F-16 pilot should have done everything he could to protect those on the ground, even if it meant going down with the plane.
Perfect, agree 100%
ok.. I'll explain this again.. I'm not a pilot but I know some and play flight sims.. ok. get in a flight sim in a jet.. try to see slightly below and infront of you.. what's that? There's a big instrument pannel, the nose, and the floor infront of you? What's that you can really only see maybe 1deg below horizon in level flight? Ok now go down to 300 feet, flaps extended to landing, gear down, get dirty.. get slow for landing.. get that nose a little high because you are slow and landing.. now how much can you see? That's just it.. you can't. Jesus.. just use your mind.. Ya.. if it was "in front" or "visible" to the F16 pilot he WOULD have seen it. He saw the other C13 that was pointed out to him that was miles away.. but this one was below and infront of him. This isn't GTA5 where you fly 3rd person from outside and behind the plane where you can see everything. Also.. what exactly makes you think the pilot didn't try to see if the plane was still flyable? If you read some news articles by first person's on the ground they say the F-16 came at them and was almost in 2 pieces or was in 2. IE from first hand stories it sounds like it was not just a fender bender on the nose cone.
Because it was below & in front of him, every vehicle has it's blind spots. The F-16 was simulating an engine failure, that means engine at flight idle producing almost no thrust, fighter planes do not glide, the fall in a controlled manner. The ATC in this case could have ordered either of the aircraft to go around but didn't. The F-16 pilot realized something was wrong and had throttled up at the last second to go around but his engine hadn't even spooled up before he hit the C-130. Yes, he could have stayed with the aircraft, but he had just collided with another airplane, and people with a better view of the situation then him were screaming for him to eject. Also the intake for the F-16s engine is on the underside below and behind the nose, debris from the collision was probably ingested into the engine, he was already slow, his engine had just been forced,and he didn't even know if he had intact lifting surfaces and flight controls. After ejection with the weight of the pilots, canopy, ejection seats removed from the front of the aircraft the CG would have shifted aft and shallowed out a decent. This has been seen several times in the past.
The next time you're driving your car, look at your front bumper. All you'll see is the dashboard. The F-16 on approach is traveling downhill, but its nose is pointed up. Not a crazy amount, but certainly enough to block the view of a C-130 ahead at a lower altitude. As far as the decision to eject is concerned, before criticizing the aircrew who were actually IN the damaged aircraft and in danger, get all the facts. If you don't KNOW that they didn't assess the damage and controllability of the aircraft, then your criticism is nothing more than armchair quarterbacking, and has no value.
This is exactly what i intended to write as well. The DAY Pilot was a shit
i was at bragg for 10 years, 3-325AIR and 2-508PIR. every pre jump i would stare over where this happened.
I can't understand how the F-16 pilot couldn't see that giant aircraft in front of him.
I can’t either. Like this video, it was crystal clear skies that day. A deep blue sky without a single cloud.
It wasn't in front of him. It was under him, below the nose.
He was reading Bugs Bunny!
I was home from Bragg healing a broken leg. Our Battalion wasn't there but our sister Batt was 1/504..A lot of the wounded ended up working in 3rd batt, 325, or in Vicenza (3/325) later..RIP Brothers.
Glaring errors here. The F-16 was not from Moody AFB. The tail flash did not say MY. The tail flash said FT for "Flying Tigers" which was the 23rd Fighter Wing assigned to Pope AFB with the F-16 belonging to the 74th FS of the 23rd Fighter Wing. Next, F-16's do not have Weapons System Officers. Most F-16 squadrons only have 1 or 2 two-seat F-16's that are used for training instruction and incentive flights. The guy in the back seat of that F-16 was not a WSO nor a Captain. It was an enlisted person on an incentive flight.
I grew up in Fayetteville. I saw the smoke. Terrible day.
I had not heard of this accident. I am trying to figure out why the F16 to could not see the C130, as the F16 canopy allows very good vision for the pilot. Maybe it was below him.
I feel the same. I just don't understand how the F-16 pilot could not see C130 coming at him. He's sitting in a bubble cannopy at the tip of a pencil with clear views all the way around him. I see in the comments people are quick to blame the ATC. I'm quick to blame the pilot actually flying the airplane and using his eyes
I was in USAF at the time; I remember the accident report saying that the F-16 was nose-high & sort-of 'landed' on the 130's stabilizer.
@@MajDuty It does seem strange, maybe a F16 pilot on the channel may give us some insight.
I don’t fly F16’s but I do fly C172’s and it’s quite difficult to spot aircraft directly in front of you. Human eyes are drawn to movement, but when the approach angle between two planes is very low (in this case zero as they were both on final) the relative motion is very slight until the last few seconds when the lead aircraft suddenly appears to be rapidly growing larger. This is one reason why other comments say “see and avoid doesn’t work.” Every experienced pilot has seen its limitations.
High AOA could’ve been a factor too (though the video didn’t seem to suggest that the F16 was in the flare yet), and the position of the sun can be a challenge too.
@@MiloToor Thank you for a detailed explanation, much appreciated.
Whoever created this accident simulation did a fantastic job.
Surprised the C-130 was still controllable after being rear-ended into the horizontal stabilizer and elevator...
This case is particularly sad because everyone at fault has lived, while all of those killed were completely innocent people on the ground which weren't otherwise involved with any of this... A very grim case of
"Should've called in sick that day"
for the troopers :-( Their duty is risky enough without out-of-control F-16s falling onto them...
No such thing as sick days In the military. At least when I was in.
@@jimmyhiggins8928 Now there is, and plenty of them.
i love your channel 😊
This is typical Military CYA move! How could the F-16 Driver NOT see the LARGE aircraft at his 12!! From the video animation he was in PERFECT dogfight position, with a clear unobstructed view of another aircraft at his 12! And he WASN’T disciplined, that’s a miscarriage of justice!! This is one of the more disturbing videos I’ve seen on TFC! Thanks for another Fantastic episode!!
It was impossible for the F-16 pilot to see the C-130! Over 40 yrs air traffic controller talking to military planes. So, trust me on that or find my post above where I esplane.
The -130 was below his nose, Jeff. There was no way he could see it through the nose of his own jet.
I watched an A-7 Corsair flame-out on downwind at NAS Lemoore in the 1970s. Stood there and watched (and heard) the pilot successfully eject and land. Watched the seatpan strike the ground and bounce just before the pilot touched down. The aircraft continued down range, bounced on the left mainmount, come down again on the right mainmount and crash with a fireball. Very spectacular and no one was hurt.
These pilots were scared and gutless coward, unlike the pilot you witnessed. Its heinous they werent held accountable.
It's always ten times more tragic to me when human error is involved in aircraft accidents...
Another great job TFC, thank you!
Personally I don't think of it as human error but as an error in the process that insufficiently accounted for human nature (unless it is something really stupid like a pilot trying to show off).
Seems like spatial awareness plays a factor in many crashes. Such a simple yet complicated concept.
@@Taladar2003 I see what you mean; good analysis.👍🏻
I flew 60's there and evacuated 7 to the burn center at UNC Chapel Hill. A few days later I took the flew a MG from the medical command up for a visit. He walked out after his visit and told me that none of the 7 survived. It was a quiet flight back to Bragg
I don’t know, seems the F16 crew punched out before really evaluating whether the jet was controllable. I know they were low level but in the moment was the jet still flyable? I guess we’ll never know.
Exactly, the problem is that they didn't even try properly. Just letting the flying bomb go...
They should have atleast directed it to an empty field instead of the fucking airbase.
You’re right. I can totally see myself do all these things calmly, knowing that I have all the time in the world and that my aircraft was not damaged at all.
It was still flying before it hit the ground. Whether it could still be maneuvered was another question.
@@alaric_ The jet was flying too slow to have any manoeuvrability. It's what they call a low energy state. Even with ABs, it was too close to break away fast enough.
A couple of inaccuracies. First, the F-16 was stationed at Pope, not Moody. Pope at that time was a composite wing consisting of C-130s, F-16s and A-10s. Second, the F-16 landed between two C-141s, not C-130s. I speak from experience since I was the Air Force on-scene public affairs specialist at the crash site immediately after the accident. A terrible day but with a lot of people going above and beyond to help their brothers in arms.
Slow approach at iddle, with nose up angle, impossible to see clearly down and forward, aboard that F-16 the pilot's head was probably over 35 or 40° back, it was certainly very easy to miss the Herk ahead,
Scott Salmon was not a WSO. The F-16 is not designed for a WSO. Scott was a T-38 student in my flight when he was in UPT after this incident. He was just riding in the back seat on what we call an incentive ride.
I was at fort Bragg when this happened. I remember it as if it happened yesterday. I had several friends that were injured by the fire ball that swept across the ramp. May the troops that lots there lives forever r.i.p
Biodiesel jet fuel does not burst into flames.
Therefore ... _no friendly fire._
I was there, lost a good friend and team leader, SSG HARRY L. MOMOA.
AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY! REST IN PEACE MY FRIEND
Why would the F-16 pilots also check out their jet to see if they could still fly? And why wouldn't fly it down as far as he could to make sure it didn't hit anyone? The pilot was not reprimanded, why Not? He played a roll.
role
You are approaching fast in both airspeed and decent. You cannot see the plane in front, unless you can see through the bottom of your plane. You hit something at very low. Altitude. Radio says eject. Instinct says you do that. The time scales are so fast, the video does not pick that up. The pilotless plane is unfortunate on its trajectory but at that point you are not flying so you are not at fault. We watch these videos and many accidents are due to fine margins good or bad.
To all Pilots out there Military Commercial Cargo ect Thank you for your service and dedication to excellence You all don't get enough credit and my family appreciate you all thank you
Great great video! Your analysis is super extensive! Video realism untouched! How you learn so much about every event and are able to show it, is just simply amazing to me.
I was stationed at Moody in 1994. We had the 68th, 69th, (70th had been deactivated), the 307th (my squadron), and the 308th. There was no 74th FS at Moody. Plus, now my memory isn't as sharp as it once was, I don't remember a Moody jet crashing at Pope.
F16 was a 74FS aircraft assigned to Pope, not Moody.
The video has incorrect markings for the F-16; MY instead of FT (Flying Tigers).
It ALWAYS sends an extra cold shiver down my spine when I see a C-130 involved air incident. I live in Los Angeles, will never forget the day Vanna White's boyfriend attempted to land a light plane, being flipped and slammed onto a runway at Van Nuys Airport, following the landing of a C-130. Could you include this story in one of your vids?
My friend was repairing the TACAN at the base when this happened and he was ordered to respond and provide assistance at the crash scene. Once the fire was out they had to guard the crash sight.
C-130s are huge. How could the F-16 pilot not see him directly ahead?
Because in an F-16, trying to see something below and just in front of you is like trying to see your front tires while driving an automobile......you can't. You would see the nose, instrument panel, and floor........plus when the F-16 is descending/slowing the nose is pointing slightly up.
If they could have seen the C-130 they obviously would have taken action. Horrible what happened, RIP to those lost.
@@tjhookit Thanks, but I find that hard to believe. The F-16 is a combat aircraft. The nose is canted down to give good visibility in a dogfight. It has had very few losses. I am a pilot. When descending, the nose is pointed down, not up. I think it makes more sense that the the pilot was occupied in the cockpit. He had been alerted to the presence of another A/C in the vicinity, had spotted it, but it was the wrong aircraft. He felt it wasn't necessary to check for other traffic, and became preoccupied with the controller's instructions and preparing to land. I believe the controller bears full responsibility for these deaths.
@@stevewilson5546 Sounds like you would know better than I about it.....and considering the fact that I am not a pilot, I will concede that your opinion carries more weight than mine. Thanks for the reply
This story is missing information I lived about 5 miles from Pope AFB at the time.The weather that day had a very low ceiling.If you don't know what that means,it was very cloudy and they were low....
I grew up and live just a bit off Bragg (and Pope at the time) and this event is something that is always on our minds locally. TheFlightChannel is powerful, but it hit pretty close to home with this one. Thanks for sharing.
I remember when this happened killed a bunch of 82nd Soldiers loading up on a C-141 for a jump. Sad day
I was working at Pope AFB that day and saw the chute of one of the F-16 crew. The story here doesn’t totally follow what we saw and heard on the ground that day. It was a horrible day where the 82nd Airborne lost more men and women that day then any day since the Battle Of the Bulge. It will always be a day I will remember and morn those we lost.
I was an engine troop with the 2nd ALS. I watched the F16 collide with the C-130, pitch up, crew eject & hit the tarmac. The NTSB after families put pressure on Congressman & Senators to have the NTSB investigate, found Captain Jacyno responcible. The news came out when I was at Moody AFB, so was Jacyno, he was grounded, I retired shortly after, don't know the final out come. One of the unfortunate things was it ended Captain Raices career, wasn't even his fault.
Brings back memories....I was at Ft. Bragg as an LPN student assigned to WOMAC hospital. We were instructed to remove our student badges and assigned tasks for the mass casualty. I was given the task of going to the scene to help triage and transport patients.
Excellent work as always.
How could that F16 crew NOT see that C130 directly in front of it? There were TWO sets of eyes instead of the usual one in the cockpit for the F16D. There's no excuse for this. The Air Force let these guys off way too easy.
One of those pilots may have been related to a high ranking officer such as a Colonel or General in the AF, and was able to escape accountability due to political clout. It doesn't make sense other wise that they were given a free pass after a major screw up
@@kevinmalone3210 At the time the opinion of the top general in the USAF was that fighter pilots don't make mistakes. This, & some questionable reorganization decisions directly contributed to this accident.
@@alanholck7995 Thanks Alan, that goes a long ways towards an explanation 👍
My Air Force Reserve unit would fly down to Pope AFB several times a year and do our weekends there to take advantage of the wider array of equipment they had to train on. There was a small shack we would hang out in during breaks in the action. We returned one time to find the shack was gone, and heard that it had been taken out by the F-16.
Such a misfortune! None on the ground who perished could have imagined what was to come! Accidents and death are stranger than fiction! RIP all souls!
Biodiesel jet fuel does not burst into flames.
Therefore ... _no friendly fire._
RIP Sgt. Gustavo Gallardo
Seems to me the problem started when the F-16 pilot wanted to do a practice flame out landing during a busy time at the airfield, other planes landing.
That caused him to have high AOA and not see the C-130, which he would have seen if he was in a normal approach (I think).
Don't even think of doing anything out of the ordinary when other aircraft are in the area.
I would put some blame on the pilot for this reason.
Am I wrong??
Yes, Craig. You're wrong. Not trying to be mean, but if you check my response to PT W above, it will shed some light.
@@bryanhubbell6528 No problem. I am not a pilot, and not in the military, so know very little about what is right or wrong in that situation. I was just going by what the video seemed to be showing.
Considering the F-16 has one of the greatest amounts of visibility for its crew from it's "glasshouse" canopy compared to almost every other military jet ever made, the pilot must have been blind...... the C-130 is one of the largest prop aircraft in the sky, and can be seen by a naked untrained eye from at least 6 kilometers...... I think the pilot of F-16 should have lost his wings, his operational awareness was very poor. If you can't see a large 4 engine prop aircraft from at least a kilometer, then you could never make a gun pass on an enemy jet... because you simply wouldn't see it..... it's only 25% of the size of a C-130.
The F16 was a trainer and they were doing instrument only flying at the time. thats why they didn't see the C-130 in front of them till the warning came from the tower
@@Dirks_NUMA_Files and John J Rambo, not to sound mean, but you're both extremely off target here. See my response to PT W above. No, the F-16 pilot wouldn't see the C-130 below his nose. The F-16 two-seater is a fully combat-functional aircraft, and a simulated flameout pattern is a VISUAL maneuver, and not an instrument maneuver.
1967 Lockheed C-141B Starlifter *66-0173* (USAF)
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1969 Lockheed C-130E Hercules *68-10942* (USAF)
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1990 General Dynamics F-16D Fighting Falcon *88-0171* (USAF)
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23 March 1994
With a background in rail, mid-air crashes have always seemed strange to me, and it has been hard to understand how, with so much space, they can even happen at all. This video helps me understand it a bit better.
I honestly feel the same way God bless everyone involved but I just don't understand how he didn't see a big old C-130 right in front of him • I know the F-16 is a highly capable machine I just don't know how he couldn't pull left or pull right or anything with so much space being up in the air but again I have no real real idea on how things work just posing the question
@@skatelifeche Deciding to practice a flame-out approach and landing might have been part of the problem. You don't want to make any sudden moves even if the jet is designed for that.
So much air movement control is by voice command. Obviously one cannot have signals and interlockings in the air, but it is possible to use radar plots to calculate on ground-based computers anticipated movements and to output warnings to traffic controllers. Of course all this stuff isn't cheap !
@@skatelifeche: I hope you realize that it's a runway that all those planes are intending to approach, so the two ATC teams are managing all that traffic *to converge toward the same area* while maintaining proper separation in position and speed. These planes are flying hundreds of miles per hour relative to each other, which means there isn't much time to react, especially when the pilots are busy with many details in preparing to land or practice emergencies procedures. The ATC messed up by not separating the planes, which is why they were punished.
The F-16D was performing a simulated flameout, and was descending with a high angle of attack. When the jet is pointed upwards, its pilots can't see directly in front or downward of their flight path. Think of the Concorde when it flares out to land: its nose section bends downward to help its pilots see the runway. The F-16D can't do that.
RIP SSG Wadington Sanchez 2/505PIR "Medics From Hell."
I'm sorry for the loss of all those men, I've been shaking my head the whole video, couldn't the small jet have landed, if not it appears it could've been diverted and flew to an isolated area, it seems like it was abandoned to just careen like an out of controlled missile, I'm still dumbfounded, RIP to the guys on the ground, senseless loss of lives.
Yeah, it flew fine, they were just scared. It was OUT OF CONTROL.
No, John. It could not have been diverted. The jet was no longer controllable. Please see my response to PT W above.
All the 23 men who died in the Green Ramp Disaster... You will never be forgotten.
My deepest sympathies for those who lost loved ones in this devastating accident. However, I seriously question just how could the F-16 not see the C 130 in front of it and steer clear. These are fighter pilots--the best of the best and trained in making tight turns and maneuvers. One would think with sophisticated onboard radar, the F-16 pilot should have had all the warnings in the world to avoid the crash but then I am not a pilot. Even cars nowadays have collision avoidance systems and one would think that advanced fighters would have similar equipment.
Because the F-16 was above and behind, he was practicing a landing after engine failure. His engine was at idle thrust and he was decending in a nose high attitude, he couldn't see the C-130 because it would have been right about where the rudder pedals in the F-16 were. Fighter jets do not glide well, and the technology to see through the aircraft structure didn't exist until the F-35.
No engine, no radar. Radar in fighter is very powerful and would injure people if used on the ground.
@@kdrapertrucker explain
This ramming reminds me about the PSA Flight 182 - where a Boeing failed to see a small Cessna flying in front of them a bit lower as they were approaching landing. That collision happened because the pilot could not see that small plane that blended in with the ground and looking downwards was a bit of blindspot in the field of vision for that plane. Going in for a landing also brings much extra work for the pilots so they are focused on much other things and easily miss looking out for planes.
And even if one see a plane coming heading for disaster, do things happens so fast that it is too late to avoid a collision.
I think of when a F4 Phantom with no radar and faulty everything all of a sudden saw a DC9 coming their way - the F4 pilot desperatly made a turn and dived towards the ground trying to save the other plane... But it was all too late. The wing of the F4 Phantom did decapitate the cockpit off the other plane - and the two halfs of that plane came crashing down towards the ground and killing everyone inside the plane.
And the pilot on the faulty F4 Phantom could not eject because of the faulty electrical system in his plane. So the RIO in the backseat became the only survivor of this tragic accident.
It is usually the enlisted personnel who are blamed and disciplined, and officers are given a pass. I know this from experience as an enlisted person in the US army in the 80's.
There used to be a poster on the wall by our shop of a WW2 looking fighter nose into the ground, with some blurb about fod, but everyone knows pilots can make deadly mistakes.
I went to high school with one of the guys killed. Phil Harvey. After graduation he joined the Army and I joined the Marine Corps. I think we had around 10 guys from our graduating class join one branch or another with 4 of us becoming jarheads. I didn't know about Phil being involved until 8 months later when I was on a float and of all the odds, the one guy who joined the Navy was on the Belleau Wood, bumped into me and told me. Pretty wretched 6 months on ship after hearing that.