Yurie. We aren’t going to kill you. You don’t need to keep begging for your life. You’re cool and do great videos. Also yeah. Most people weirdly default to Kay(like the knight)-Nis. I am not going to kill you over pronunciation just trying to help you.
I think they missed an opportunity of not making his final ascension have a male body. Servants are supposed to represent the individual at the peak of their legend. Imagine how many bricks would have been shat from the Chaldea staff when Caenis' final power up in LB5.5 turned him into Caeneus proper. I also can't help but feel sorta uncomfortable for him being stuck in a female servant body (which naturally causes misgendering) and don't get me started on the summer version. I get that he probably doesn't really care and was likely done to reference his "post death body" but it sort of feels like he's being denied one of his most iconic wishes and aspects of his myth cause the artists wanted another excuse to "genderbend a male figure". But overall I greatly enjoyed him as a character. As brash and ruthless as he was there was this air of honor to him like he won't kill for the sake of it and would only really target you if ordered to or felt you would be a fun fight. He also felt like a force of nature, a 2nd Heracles, this man just casually walks through Lostbelt storm walls like it's nothing while we have to literally dip in an out of reality to get through them.
Tbf, many versions states that Caneus returned back to being a woman at death, which is also mentioned in the video a few times. And seeing as he’s dead as a Servant, it actually does make sense why he has a woman’s body as Caenis. Servants being a slave to their legend and all that.
Hmm, based on the legend and how stuff in the Nasuverse works, I think I know why Caenis could have a closer connection to Posiden than you'd think. It's my theory that Posiden might have fufilled Caenis' wish by grafting his Spirit Origin onto him. This would definately grant Caenis what he wanted and would explain why he got Posiden's trident in the third acsension. It's no suprise to anyone that the third ascension to servants enhances certain traits beyond normal. After all, servants outside summoned of FGO are usually in their First or Second Ascension based on apperance so getting a servant to that point is exceeding rare. So, while it wouldn't make sense normally, if I am right, then it's an exlaination for not just Caenis, but more servants who's final ascension gives them things they wouldn't normalñy get.
Don’t worry we won’t unalive ya. I actually think most people would agree FGO Caenis’ would be referred by male pronouns. People who don’t, I won’t demonize either, but if they explicitly are being transphobic for their sole reason why they choose female pronouns for Caenis, then yeah screw them. But if they’re not being transphobic that’s ok, Fate itself is weird with Caenis’ pronouns, but I personally also use male pronouns for p much the same reasons you him with male pronouns.
I wasn't fond of Caenis much as the Lost Belts started and wore on, but as Olympus reached its finale, their relationship with Goredolf, beating Douman's ass offscreen, and their last stand against Chaldea(which I used Mordred to face them in, felt amazing) really won me over. Caenis Lancer is so far the only Servant besides Ushiwaka Rider I've been grailing beyond 100.
To be fair, Caenis in the Aeneid as female in hades, so I wouldn’t over think it, just apply the D’eon logic in this Caenis can be female or male, based on the players.
Its also cause I think caenis has a double personality in fgo especially cause of her bond4 in which caenis recalls her experience as a woman and the horrible stuff that happened to her and tells u, than forgets it next bond and tells u to stop or die, it’s likely both personalities are present the pre man caenis which just stays silent for the most part and than the male personality which we interact with.
The thing is like. Why would being a girl in the afterlife matter when FGo servants are summoned normally at there peak. When Ceanis was a man. And why would he want to even look like a woman again when he had a whole story about not wanting to?
@@justnojustn3036 probably another Arturia situation, basically Caenis’ body didn’t change completely to male and Poseidon pulled a Merlin, and Caenis was like close enough.
So I am noticing a certain lack of mention of the most damning part of his character. The fact that he was a rape victim... that later moved on to become a rapist himself. As far as I am aware Ceanis is perhaps the worst person in all of Greek mythology. Knowing the indignity and horror of that crime but perpetuating it anyway.
I didn't see anything about Caenis actually doing such things, though I admit that I could find little info about his time as a Tyrant. Do you have more info?
Heyo. I'd like to make a small correction to your video. You note that caenis being psuedo divine and wielding Poseidon's trident are innacuracies to the myth. However, it's established in the main story, profile/mats that Caeneus did not possess' poseidon's Authority in life. It was an additional "gift" that Caenis managed to snatch from him when summoned as a Servant. You touch on the narrative implications on the divine spirit connection, and I'd like to expand on that in a short analysis of the character, too. I'd characterize Caenis in Fate as a character that adapts/rebirths in response to overwhelming hardship and adversity as a means to reach new heights. Caenis/Caeneus can bear any pain if it takes him closer to his goal. This is shown in the original myth at two stages. First, the "proud" demand for recompense upon enduring the pain of rape that is said "not even a god could bear" in Metamorphoses. Second, overcoming even death in the Centauromachy. Though the "golden bird" is never outright stated to be a pheonix, that is the implication. Caeneus died but rose from the ashes as the ancient Greek/Roman symbol of rebirth. Caenis never gives up, no matter how painful. With this context in mind: is it strange that Caenis argued for apotheosis when summoned as Servant? It's a hardship of the mind, absolutely, but it's also a source of power. A source of growth. So why does Caenis/caeneus seek this growth? Well, as Kirishtaria describes it, it's akin to self-affirmation that he/she hasn't given up on themselves. Poseidon hasn't broken their spirit: Kirschtaria: Yes, I know. You hated the gods for their flaws and tyranny and humans for being weak-yourself included. Kirschtaria: But even though you were so enraged and despondent as to rend your own body, you still chose to survive instead of taking your life. Kirschtaria: Ultimately, you asked the sea-god who wounded, you and whom you hated more than anyone, for indemnification, and were turned into a Divine Spirit. Kirschtaria: You didn't do it to become a god like Poseidon. You did so to ensure you would never lose all hope for yourself again. Instead of submitting and giving up (rending her own body), she survived. Though I'd prefer to stay clear of the Gender identity discourse as I've grown quite tired of the politics people insert to it: why Caenis is summoned as a woman becomes relevant to this point. Caenis won't run away from trauma. They won't abandon their former self. If Caenis was left by the wayside, if she was cast aside from the Heroic Spirit of humanity: that woman's soul truly would have lost. She would have died at the hands of the sea God, not in body but in spirit. Take it from Caenis' own words in the "from lostbelt" manga (chapter 5): "Poseidon stole everything from me, Caenis, and gave everything to me, Caeneus. I know. I know that casting Caenis aside would mean accepting Poseidon. That's why I can't cast her aside. I can't cast aside any of the fear and humiliation I went through that time." Caenis' heroic legend isn't that Caeneus was invincible, not his adventures. The heroism demonstrated, the strength of humanity shown: was a human faced with unimaginable pain but still, in spite of it, it all; adamant about not giving in. The spirit to adapt to hardship, not huddling up and dying from it. This is why caenis' tranformation noble phantasm is said to be "sublimated from Caenis' very existence" and why it shares the name of the Hero. It is the pheonix like, unyielding spirit of Caenis' as demonstrated in legend: crystallised into a noble phantasm. "The sea...the land...none of those can hold me down! Behold! Lapithae Caeneus!"
That's the best description I've heard of Caenis' situation in Fgo, It also explains well my own view on Caenis' gender, she or he really doesn't care, they only care about not being weak and not suffering again. It also works in a way that he or she has to face their traumas and overcome them, accepting who they are. Written with a translator, so sorry for any spelling mistakes.
Great video as always. There’s actually another source for the origin of the Lapithean centaurs, where they were the sons of the Lapith king Ixion (who was also the first patricider of Greece) and Hera’s lookalike, the cloud nymph Nephele. It’s why another name for the centaurs is Ixionidae, the Sons of Ixion. Though then again, some versions do state that Centaurus was Nephele’s son instead of the son of Apollo and Stilbe, who then fathered the centaurs via horses. Speaking of centaurs, there were different kinds with different progenitors. Chiron being Cronus’s son, the ox-horned Cyprian Centaurs being the sons of Zeus (accidental, btw, which is quite the twist), and the 12 Lamian Pheres who were forcibly transformed into ox-horned centaurs by Hera for protecting Dionysus from her (as is the custom) on Zeus’s orders.
Cool Caenis video, i hope the comment section will be normal about him- *sees the comment section* sigh Anyways i guess the current Caenis in fgo is close to transmasculine like how Caenis was even before Poseidon incident in the myth, tho i still wish they made fully male ver Also he was featured in CBC CE with Mandri and Mori, Mandri was so nervous in that ce lmao
I'll say that in the game, they explained Caenis' divine spirit manifestation becuse, apparently, that blessing required Poseidon's spirit core. It's also not uncommon for Heroic Spirits to get powers of beings linked to them by proxy even if they never necesarily used them in life (case in point, Medusa having Pegasus). In any case, great video on him. I'll give the like and leave the comment section because I don't want to get angry and argue.
@@FirstLast-hd4oe Medusa has a connection to Pegasus because she birthed him during her death. So she has it as a Rider even when she never used him as a mount in life. Caenis has... *That* connection with Poseidon. So he gets to use Poseidon's powers even if he never had some of them in life.
The way I see it, if Caenis is indeed a Trans Male then the conditions of their transition on the first place were... less than ideal to say it somehow, so maybe being summoned in the body of a woman could be a way for them to face their trauma head-on instead of running away from it and start to do things properly this time.
I find alot of interest reasons people give for why ceanis is in a body of a woman but like it's just that the artists will always put fan service over character .
It’s okay, I respect you for showing the myth and characters more respect, it’s obvious they wanted some fan service, despite what the characters myth said. But what can you do, it won’t stop them from putting them in a swimsuit.
It always seemed to me that Caenis still dresses as he would while in a male body despite the female body. I mean, he’s basically topless or naked in those sculptures and paintings.
Given the connection to centaurs (and the fact that Caenis is a Greek hero), I'm kinda disappointed that Caenis and Chiron don't even acknowledge each other in dialogues.
@@kziila0244 Do you really think Caenis would care about the semantics, or that Chiron wouldn't at least feel a bit of a twinge of guilt by association (or at least acknowledge the awkwardness of it)?
@@yichlyichl4204 I don’t see why. Both are famous and their origins and ends are well known. Caenis would only have a bone to pick with the Lapithian Centaurs and he is perceptive enough to know that. Chiron, being the son of Cronus, has no reason to feel guilt over anything just because he has a centaur body. Plus, he’s also _the_ Greek teacher of heroes. I don’t think Caenis would just pick a fight with someone like him for the reason of “you possess a similar body structure as the centaurs who killed me”. Brash and aggressive he may be with EX Mad Enhancement, but he has enough of his wit to not just pick fights with random people over something like that.
I would if Caeneus or Mordred would win in an arm wrestling contest. Good video, didnt know there was a centauromachy, I had heard of the gigantomachy. Kinda cool humans were able to beat back the centaurs for the most part, kinda like how the gods beat down the giants. Thinking about it and looking it up, there was a Titanomachia (titants vs the gods), which is cool since i didnt know it had a name as well. I wonder if there would be any greek hero that could stand a chance against a titan or a giant. Technically speaking, Herc did outsmart Atlas, but didnt beat him in combat. However, considering the sheer difference is power and ability, outsmarting them might be a human's only chance of victory against such beings.
I literally love both of them, I love the origin of the loli ripper, her design….. ehhhhhh, but the other one which has no form or identity is just amazing!! I love his English’s and Japanese VA they sound so spooky and great!!
Something i find interristing is that caeneus father in some versions is atrax who is also hippodamias(the woman kidnapped by centaurs) father meaning that in one version caenis and hippodamia were siblings Also it is implied in fgo that caeneus didnt have poseidons blessing or at least didnt have it to the same extend as jason is surprised they cant hurt him in atlantis Also caeneus can produce lightning not just in his attack animations but in fgo lore as well as caeneus states he didnt ask for the invinceblety and notes he would have been fine even with only his lightning This not only indicates that all caenis asked for was to become a man but also that lightning we see in his attack animations is an ability he posseses independtly of poseidons blessings just some information i found interristing
Another possible reason to explain the gender thing is since one of the variants of his end was that caeneus was returned to caenis and that’s why we see him as we do
I can see caenis medusa and the people who were screw over by Poseidon form a gang called something like fuck Poseidon all my homies hate Poseidon or something like that i don’t know.
Also caenis dosnt give a shit in fact many call caenis a female in Chaldea and caenis dosnt care, in fact it’s likely cause caenis suffers from double personality , in her 4th bond caenis goes over her past telling to the master how she felt but than bond 5 she Preaty much says she didn’t remember wtf we were talking about, aka I think the gender unknown is cause of that aka there is the male personality post becoming a man and the burried female personality, which is silently watching. That’s why probably she dosnt give a dam if they call caenis a man or a woman cause subconsciously she can’t deny it do to her female personality
They may not deny it, but they still prefer he/him. That’s exactly why Krish uses he/him pronouns. It’s not dual personalities, Caenis accepts their female part so that they can never let Poseidon win. As forgetting or simply moving past what happened would be acting as if what happened didn’t affect them. It did affect them, it shaped who they are, and so they do not reject their feminine side. Caenis prefers he him pronouns, he may not go ballistic on you like someone who’s on the internet too long, but he prefers it. That’s why the person who respects Caenis most uses them.
@@ladaal8867 Still Canis body is obviously female, and not just that Canis is showing off the parts like breast, and wearing a efiing swimsuit meant for females, yea Canis also wears sometimes male clothes but again, if Canis doesnt wants to be misgendered all the time and called a women, then why?...Its clear that Canis may never been trans, but that the trauma that Poseidon inflicted is the sole reason. For Mordred its similar she doesnt mind wearing female clothes but then again Women were restricted to be so many things in her time, and considered weaker so its more of an insult to be called one. Caenis couldnt stop Poseidon as a woman, and thats why its linked weakness.
@@lunaq163 being physically female is… irrelevant. Caenis identifies as a male, the reason they materialized as a female is their inability to let his past go. However Caenis still wished to be a man, and still does to this day. Caenis was forced into wearing a swimsuit by scathach. Caenis doesn’t care about being misgendered, he doesn’t give a hoot what people think of think of him. That’s just his nature. However Caenis clearly prefers male clothes, he has a voicelines where he ridicules Nemo for wearing feminine clothes. He also ridicules Da Vinci for voluntarily turning female. Caenis is trans, that is why he prefers he/him pronouns and why he acts so masculine. You say that Poseidon is the sole reason Caenis is trans, but that is inaccurate. Caenis in myth, even before his violation, has always been trans masculine. He never enjoyed doing his hair like the other nymphs. He never enjoyed dancing, always perfecting masculine based tasks instead. Mordred is different. Mordred was taught and gaslit by Morgan that women cannot be king, and so mordred thought to themself that they can’t be a girl. However mordred explicitly doesn’t like being called a guy either, because mordred does not identify as one. Mordred prefers masculine titles, but does not like being called a guy or a girl. To summarize my counterpoints. “But caenis wears female clothing” Caenis is usually forced to, and has said multiple times that they don’t like it when they wear that stuff “But caneis doesn’t mind when people use she her” That’s because Caenis doesn’t gaf. Krish is Caenis’ closest relationship, and Krish refers to Caenis as a guy. “But Caenis is only like that because of Poseidon” Untrue, Caenis has always been transmasc. “But Caenis is physically a girl” That has nothing to do with being trans or not.
@@ladaal8867 there is one point that makes me go: yeh that’s silly, what point? the fact in your argument u say she didn’t like doing stuff other females did, so suddenly makes caenis trans, is silly especially when we compare with another that behaves not very lady like Atalanta so what u gonna say Atalanta is trans cause she behaves like she wants and didn’t give a dam about custom? Also just cause a girl behaves and enjoys male stuff dosnt make them trans I would know cause I have know girls like that and guess what they had no problem with their identity that part feels so silly it makes me laugh, people over inflating having different tastes in what u like to do with being trans has always seemed like a super silly argument to me especially when I met people that had suffered from people telling them the u like this u are trans stuff on someone when they weren’t even trans which is silly. This is just my opinion tbh I don’t feel that part holds up in your discussion and counter point
Nice video again informative and entertaining. And to be fair Caenis is call he most if not all the time so i don't think people will mad. Anyways i cannot wait for your next video and i hope you enjoyed make these video as much as i love to watch them
Well if Kishtaria refers to them as he, then I think it IS safe to assume he prefers male pronounces, but is able to tolarte being refered to by female pronounces. I thin overall he dosnt care as long as you dont treat him like a woman. Kinda like Mordred where she fankly dosnt care all that much what pronounce you youse, just dont call her a girl ore try and force her into a gender role. The same I think applys here
You know now that I think about it... the Greek gods really had a thing for transformation whether it was themselves or on others (although that generally was as a punishment). Are we sure the Greeks gods didn't invent the tag for gender swap and transformation? As for animals they liked we have swans, eagles, peacocks, lions, horses and of course their favourite animal us. You see your dad right now... that might not be him, it could be Zeus. Give him a poke and see if you get a static shock. It's the only way to know. Anyway than you have them punishing mortals by turning them into things like a monstrous spider or snake or more that I'm likely forgetting about. Huh? Is Arachne in FGO? Although I suppose she doesn't do as much nor is she as interesting as Medusa so I guess understand why. But just think of all those legs. The fanservice... the fanservice.
Btw for when you make ur Atalanta Video) "Crossing Arcadia Skill that allows her to avoid obstacles" Is a reference to a antidote of her skipping over mountains with Artemis bouncing over Rocks and Rivers
this might be nitpicking but getting Poseidon's powers was a narrative thing or the uniquie spin for their story like blackbeard being an otaku and roland actually enjoying being naked we do need something original for the story
I pretty much had to make a choice for consistency. It's the same reason why I chose to continue calling Roland Roland even though in the Italian poems he gets called Orlando.
omg i was so worried which pronouns you were going to use and i'm actually super happy that you chose to go with he/him, especially considering some of fgo's approaches to trans people. i think what cements him as trans for me is that he specifically has a my room line with da vinci where he is absolutely bewildered she voluntarily became a girl (average interaction between a trans man and a trans woman) and if there is an fgo character who is indisputably trans it's definitely da vinci.
In the lostbelt manga that covers the things that the crypters and the people in the lostbelts were doing before Chaldea arrived, as well as their thoughts and feelings, we find out that the reason Caenis choosed to manifest in their woman form as a servant, is her way of continuing to stick it to poseidon in her own way. Her male identity as Caeneus, and everything she got from that was the compensation she got after Poseidon assaulted Caenis. If she completely cast aside her identity as Caenis, it would be like accepting Poseidon and what her did to her, so she chooses to manifest as Caenis in order to not give Poseidon that last victory. Edit: Also, love your videos and how you pick apart every aspect of the servants lore in order to gauge how faithful to said lore the servant is, and how justifiable the changes to them and their abilities are. Look forward to more of them.
the reason why i cant, consider this caenis male despite her wishes is that based on lore this is a cover up, she still is and forever will be shaken by what poseidon did, and if i could beat poseidon again, i would do it multiple times, it makes me sad that she had to kinda run away from herself because of that event, and i have to mention, this caenis being even more linked to poseidon doesnt make it a flaw to me ironically, because she herself is disgusted by this fact, she hates having poseidon's divine stuffs
I can’t agree with that, even if you think that, you should always consider someone’s wishes with how they identify. He wishes to be male and is referred to as male. Those who are close with him and he trusts refer to him as male. It is clear that he’s comfortable with his identity and won’t change that.
@@That_demon_thing you are right actually, it may be selfish of me, but when i see caenis, i see someone strong, and just like mordred, when she is on chaldea she can mellow out and try to be who she once was, no need to be tiranical, no need to be aggressive, to be able to love the sea again
Caenis' bond lines kinda imply she's suffering from whatever the changed name for multiple personality disorder is to cope with that where one is male, other is female so technically both ways are correct
@@That_demon_thing treat her like a woman may trigger the memories and trauma poseidon gave her, but i believe that she can face it and be a woman again, this is not me being horny or anything, i love caenis but not this way, its just that i feel like she is strong enough to face it, and maybe accept both versions of her since she hates being a woman and i do believe she is being harsh on herself for doing it
You know I can see Caenis getting stuck with someone who treats the heroic spirit with respect but absolutely refuses to use male pronouns in regards to them because they do not care about any sort of identity or image issue the individual may have grafted upon themselves and the heroic spirit for some reason cannot kill them in return. That would be an interesting relationship.
Personally I don't believe Caenis is Trans. The main reason is that the desire to be a man seems to come purely after the assault. The way I see it, Caenis seems to associate being a man with strength and power and being a woman with her weakness and assault. Men where, after all, notably more in power than women in Greece. In essence, having a female body is technically accurate to her identity, but she prefers male pronouns and still desires a male body as she sees it as empowering and being female and things related to it remind her of a traumatic point in her life
Fail to see how your reason disproves the fact that Caenis is still trans, it doesn't matter that it was a result of trauma, he asked Poseidon for the testosterone
I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t care for Caenis’ character or personality in any of her appearances in the story of FGO and frankly I’m glad both versions have stayed in the depths of the Gacha
@@CrazyYurie And somehow Summer Kama NP2ed herself for me while blocking both Summer Sei and Summer Caenis from appearing at all. Gacha rate ups are weird sometimes 😅
Yurie. We aren’t going to kill you. You don’t need to keep begging for your life. You’re cool and do great videos. Also yeah. Most people weirdly default to Kay(like the knight)-Nis. I am not going to kill you over pronunciation just trying to help you.
I don't actually expect to be murderized, but I still ask to be spared anyway. XD
I think they missed an opportunity of not making his final ascension have a male body. Servants are supposed to represent the individual at the peak of their legend. Imagine how many bricks would have been shat from the Chaldea staff when Caenis' final power up in LB5.5 turned him into Caeneus proper.
I also can't help but feel sorta uncomfortable for him being stuck in a female servant body (which naturally causes misgendering) and don't get me started on the summer version. I get that he probably doesn't really care and was likely done to reference his "post death body" but it sort of feels like he's being denied one of his most iconic wishes and aspects of his myth cause the artists wanted another excuse to "genderbend a male figure".
But overall I greatly enjoyed him as a character. As brash and ruthless as he was there was this air of honor to him like he won't kill for the sake of it and would only really target you if ordered to or felt you would be a fun fight. He also felt like a force of nature, a 2nd Heracles, this man just casually walks through Lostbelt storm walls like it's nothing while we have to literally dip in an out of reality to get through them.
Tbf, many versions states that Caneus returned back to being a woman at death, which is also mentioned in the video a few times. And seeing as he’s dead as a Servant, it actually does make sense why he has a woman’s body as Caenis. Servants being a slave to their legend and all that.
Hmm, based on the legend and how stuff in the Nasuverse works, I think I know why Caenis could have a closer connection to Posiden than you'd think. It's my theory that Posiden might have fufilled Caenis' wish by grafting his Spirit Origin onto him. This would definately grant Caenis what he wanted and would explain why he got Posiden's trident in the third acsension.
It's no suprise to anyone that the third ascension to servants enhances certain traits beyond normal. After all, servants outside summoned of FGO are usually in their First or Second Ascension based on apperance so getting a servant to that point is exceeding rare. So, while it wouldn't make sense normally, if I am right, then it's an exlaination for not just Caenis, but more servants who's final ascension gives them things they wouldn't normalñy get.
Don’t worry we won’t unalive ya. I actually think most people would agree FGO Caenis’ would be referred by male pronouns. People who don’t, I won’t demonize either, but if they explicitly are being transphobic for their sole reason why they choose female pronouns for Caenis, then yeah screw them. But if they’re not being transphobic that’s ok, Fate itself is weird with Caenis’ pronouns, but I personally also use male pronouns for p much the same reasons you him with male pronouns.
I wasn't fond of Caenis much as the Lost Belts started and wore on, but as Olympus reached its finale, their relationship with Goredolf, beating Douman's ass offscreen, and their last stand against Chaldea(which I used Mordred to face them in, felt amazing) really won me over. Caenis Lancer is so far the only Servant besides Ushiwaka Rider I've been grailing beyond 100.
To be fair, Caenis in the Aeneid as female in hades, so I wouldn’t over think it, just apply the D’eon logic in this Caenis can be female or male, based on the players.
Its also cause I think caenis has a double personality in fgo especially cause of her bond4 in which caenis recalls her experience as a woman and the horrible stuff that happened to her and tells u, than forgets it next bond and tells u to stop or die, it’s likely both personalities are present the pre man caenis which just stays silent for the most part and than the male personality which we interact with.
@@federicofilippini6780 i thought the same thing. Its obvious that his mind is fckdup hence the madness enchancment EX
The thing is like. Why would being a girl in the afterlife matter when FGo servants are summoned normally at there peak. When Ceanis was a man. And why would he want to even look like a woman again when he had a whole story about not wanting to?
@@justnojustn3036 also this is a good point.
@@justnojustn3036 probably another Arturia situation, basically Caenis’ body didn’t change completely to male and Poseidon pulled a Merlin, and Caenis was like close enough.
Honestly when I summoned Caenis to Chaldea…… I’m surprised he was a 4* and not a 5*
So I am noticing a certain lack of mention of the most damning part of his character. The fact that he was a rape victim... that later moved on to become a rapist himself. As far as I am aware Ceanis is perhaps the worst person in all of Greek mythology. Knowing the indignity and horror of that crime but perpetuating it anyway.
I didn't see anything about Caenis actually doing such things, though I admit that I could find little info about his time as a Tyrant. Do you have more info?
Heyo. I'd like to make a small correction to your video. You note that caenis being psuedo divine and wielding Poseidon's trident are innacuracies to the myth. However, it's established in the main story, profile/mats that Caeneus did not possess' poseidon's Authority in life. It was an additional "gift" that Caenis managed to snatch from him when summoned as a Servant.
You touch on the narrative implications on the divine spirit connection, and I'd like to expand on that in a short analysis of the character, too. I'd characterize Caenis in Fate as a character that adapts/rebirths in response to overwhelming hardship and adversity as a means to reach new heights. Caenis/Caeneus can bear any pain if it takes him closer to his goal.
This is shown in the original myth at two stages. First, the "proud" demand for recompense upon enduring the pain of rape that is said "not even a god could bear" in Metamorphoses.
Second, overcoming even death in the Centauromachy. Though the "golden bird" is never outright stated to be a pheonix, that is the implication. Caeneus died but rose from the ashes as the ancient Greek/Roman symbol of rebirth.
Caenis never gives up, no matter how painful. With this context in mind: is it strange that Caenis argued for apotheosis when summoned as Servant? It's a hardship of the mind, absolutely, but it's also a source of power. A source of growth. So why does Caenis/caeneus seek this growth? Well, as Kirishtaria describes it, it's akin to self-affirmation that he/she hasn't given up on themselves. Poseidon hasn't broken their spirit:
Kirschtaria:
Yes, I know. You hated the gods for their flaws and tyranny and humans for being weak-yourself included.
Kirschtaria:
But even though you were so enraged and despondent as to rend your own body, you still chose to survive instead of taking your life.
Kirschtaria:
Ultimately, you asked the sea-god who wounded, you and whom you hated more than anyone, for indemnification, and were turned into a Divine Spirit.
Kirschtaria:
You didn't do it to become a god like Poseidon. You did so to ensure you would never lose all hope for yourself again.
Instead of submitting and giving up (rending her own body), she survived. Though I'd prefer to stay clear of the Gender identity discourse as I've grown quite tired of the politics people insert to it: why Caenis is summoned as a woman becomes relevant to this point.
Caenis won't run away from trauma. They won't abandon their former self. If Caenis was left by the wayside, if she was cast aside from the Heroic Spirit of humanity: that woman's soul truly would have lost. She would have died at the hands of the sea God, not in body but in spirit. Take it from Caenis' own words in the "from lostbelt" manga (chapter 5):
"Poseidon stole everything from me, Caenis, and gave everything to me, Caeneus. I know. I know that casting Caenis aside would mean accepting Poseidon. That's why I can't cast her aside. I can't cast aside any of the fear and humiliation I went through that time."
Caenis' heroic legend isn't that Caeneus was invincible, not his adventures. The heroism demonstrated, the strength of humanity shown: was a human faced with unimaginable pain but still, in spite of it, it all; adamant about not giving in. The spirit to adapt to hardship, not huddling up and dying from it. This is why caenis' tranformation noble phantasm is said to be "sublimated from Caenis' very existence" and why it shares the name of the Hero. It is the pheonix like, unyielding spirit of Caenis' as demonstrated in legend: crystallised into a noble phantasm.
"The sea...the land...none of those can hold me down! Behold! Lapithae Caeneus!"
That's the best description I've heard of Caenis' situation in Fgo, It also explains well my own view on Caenis' gender, she or he really doesn't care, they only care about not being weak and not suffering again.
It also works in a way that he or she has to face their traumas and overcome them, accepting who they are.
Written with a translator, so sorry for any spelling mistakes.
Great video as always.
There’s actually another source for the origin of the Lapithean centaurs, where they were the sons of the Lapith king Ixion (who was also the first patricider of Greece) and Hera’s lookalike, the cloud nymph Nephele. It’s why another name for the centaurs is Ixionidae, the Sons of Ixion.
Though then again, some versions do state that Centaurus was Nephele’s son instead of the son of Apollo and Stilbe, who then fathered the centaurs via horses.
Speaking of centaurs, there were different kinds with different progenitors. Chiron being Cronus’s son, the ox-horned Cyprian Centaurs being the sons of Zeus (accidental, btw, which is quite the twist), and the 12 Lamian Pheres who were forcibly transformed into ox-horned centaurs by Hera for protecting Dionysus from her (as is the custom) on Zeus’s orders.
Cool Caenis video, i hope the comment section will be normal about him- *sees the comment section* sigh
Anyways i guess the current Caenis in fgo is close to transmasculine like how Caenis was even before Poseidon incident in the myth, tho i still wish they made fully male ver
Also he was featured in CBC CE with Mandri and Mori, Mandri was so nervous in that ce lmao
I'll say that in the game, they explained Caenis' divine spirit manifestation becuse, apparently, that blessing required Poseidon's spirit core. It's also not uncommon for Heroic Spirits to get powers of beings linked to them by proxy even if they never necesarily used them in life (case in point, Medusa having Pegasus).
In any case, great video on him. I'll give the like and leave the comment section because I don't want to get angry and argue.
Um Medusa is pegasus's mother I wouldn't say that's a good analogy as her summoning him has nothing to do with Poseidon
@@FirstLast-hd4oe Medusa has a connection to Pegasus because she birthed him during her death. So she has it as a Rider even when she never used him as a mount in life.
Caenis has... *That* connection with Poseidon. So he gets to use Poseidon's powers even if he never had some of them in life.
The way I see it, if Caenis is indeed a Trans Male then the conditions of their transition on the first place were... less than ideal to say it somehow, so maybe being summoned in the body of a woman could be a way for them to face their trauma head-on instead of running away from it and start to do things properly this time.
I find alot of interest reasons people give for why ceanis is in a body of a woman but like it's just that the artists will always put fan service over character .
@@justnojustn3036 Well yeah, there's no secret there, but it's fun to overthink things every once in a while
@@Rex_Revolt fair
It’s okay, I respect you for showing the myth and characters more respect, it’s obvious they wanted some fan service, despite what the characters myth said. But what can you do, it won’t stop them from putting them in a swimsuit.
It always seemed to me that Caenis still dresses as he would while in a male body despite the female body.
I mean, he’s basically topless or naked in those sculptures and paintings.
Given the connection to centaurs (and the fact that Caenis is a Greek hero), I'm kinda disappointed that Caenis and Chiron don't even acknowledge each other in dialogues.
There were actually different kinds of centaurs with different progenitors.
@@kziila0244 Do you really think Caenis would care about the semantics, or that Chiron wouldn't at least feel a bit of a twinge of guilt by association (or at least acknowledge the awkwardness of it)?
@@yichlyichl4204
I don’t see why. Both are famous and their origins and ends are well known. Caenis would only have a bone to pick with the Lapithian Centaurs and he is perceptive enough to know that. Chiron, being the son of Cronus, has no reason to feel guilt over anything just because he has a centaur body. Plus, he’s also _the_ Greek teacher of heroes. I don’t think Caenis would just pick a fight with someone like him for the reason of “you possess a similar body structure as the centaurs who killed me”. Brash and aggressive he may be with EX Mad Enhancement, but he has enough of his wit to not just pick fights with random people over something like that.
Spectacular work, Yurie: keep it up, because you are probably my favorite FGO-tuber
Thanks! :D
I would if Caeneus or Mordred would win in an arm wrestling contest. Good video, didnt know there was a centauromachy, I had heard of the gigantomachy. Kinda cool humans were able to beat back the centaurs for the most part, kinda like how the gods beat down the giants. Thinking about it and looking it up, there was a Titanomachia (titants vs the gods), which is cool since i didnt know it had a name as well. I wonder if there would be any greek hero that could stand a chance against a titan or a giant. Technically speaking, Herc did outsmart Atlas, but didnt beat him in combat. However, considering the sheer difference is power and ability, outsmarting them might be a human's only chance of victory against such beings.
how they killed Caenis reminds me of how
Gideon Jura almost died in MTG he was almost drowned in a puddle because his body was immune to harm
Ceaneus has horse ears because He was related to the Centaurs
There kinda like a cousin Civilization
Proud master of a lvl 116 bond 15 2k foued Caenis. just waiting for her next banner in october to finally lvl 120.
Awesome!
TL'DR
Being biological a woman in ancient greek mythology SUCKS
Sad, but true. :(
jack the ripper next
I literally love both of them, I love the origin of the loli ripper, her design….. ehhhhhh, but the other one which has no form or identity is just amazing!! I love his English’s and Japanese VA they sound so spooky and great!!
Bradamante is next. There were polls.
@@CrazyYurie gulp
@@be6386 fr
Something i find interristing is that caeneus father in some versions is atrax who is also hippodamias(the woman kidnapped by centaurs) father meaning that in one version caenis and hippodamia were siblings
Also it is implied in fgo that caeneus didnt have poseidons blessing or at least didnt have it to the same extend as jason is surprised they cant hurt him in atlantis
Also caeneus can produce lightning not just in his attack animations but in fgo lore as well as caeneus states he didnt ask for the invinceblety and notes he would have been fine even with only his lightning
This not only indicates that all caenis asked for was to become a man but also that lightning we see in his attack animations is an ability he posseses independtly of poseidons blessings just some information i found interristing
The noble phantasm being a phoenix is interesting given the trans narrative in his tale
Another possible reason to explain the gender thing is since one of the variants of his end was that caeneus was returned to caenis and that’s why we see him as we do
I can see caenis medusa and the people who were screw over by Poseidon form a gang called something like fuck Poseidon all my homies hate Poseidon or something like that i don’t know.
Also caenis dosnt give a shit in fact many call caenis a female in Chaldea and caenis dosnt care, in fact it’s likely cause caenis suffers from double personality
, in her 4th bond caenis goes over her past telling to the master how she felt but than bond 5 she Preaty much says she didn’t remember wtf we were talking about, aka I think the gender unknown is cause of that aka there is the male personality post becoming a man and the burried female personality, which is silently watching. That’s why probably she dosnt give a dam if they call caenis a man or a woman cause subconsciously she can’t deny it do to her female personality
They may not deny it, but they still prefer he/him. That’s exactly why Krish uses he/him pronouns. It’s not dual personalities, Caenis accepts their female part so that they can never let Poseidon win. As forgetting or simply moving past what happened would be acting as if what happened didn’t affect them. It did affect them, it shaped who they are, and so they do not reject their feminine side.
Caenis prefers he him pronouns, he may not go ballistic on you like someone who’s on the internet too long, but he prefers it. That’s why the person who respects Caenis most uses them.
@@ladaal8867 Still Canis body is obviously female, and not just that Canis is showing off the parts like breast, and wearing a efiing swimsuit meant for females, yea Canis also wears sometimes male clothes but again, if Canis doesnt wants to be misgendered all the time and called a women, then why?...Its clear that Canis may never been trans, but that the trauma that Poseidon inflicted is the sole reason. For Mordred its similar she doesnt mind wearing female clothes but then again Women were restricted to be so many things in her time, and considered weaker so its more of an insult to be called one. Caenis couldnt stop Poseidon as a woman, and thats why its linked weakness.
@@lunaq163 being physically female is… irrelevant. Caenis identifies as a male, the reason they materialized as a female is their inability to let his past go. However Caenis still wished to be a man, and still does to this day. Caenis was forced into wearing a swimsuit by scathach. Caenis doesn’t care about being misgendered, he doesn’t give a hoot what people think of think of him. That’s just his nature. However Caenis clearly prefers male clothes, he has a voicelines where he ridicules Nemo for wearing feminine clothes. He also ridicules Da Vinci for voluntarily turning female. Caenis is trans, that is why he prefers he/him pronouns and why he acts so masculine. You say that Poseidon is the sole reason Caenis is trans, but that is inaccurate. Caenis in myth, even before his violation, has always been trans masculine. He never enjoyed doing his hair like the other nymphs. He never enjoyed dancing, always perfecting masculine based tasks instead. Mordred is different. Mordred was taught and gaslit by Morgan that women cannot be king, and so mordred thought to themself that they can’t be a girl. However mordred explicitly doesn’t like being called a guy either, because mordred does not identify as one. Mordred prefers masculine titles, but does not like being called a guy or a girl. To summarize my counterpoints.
“But caenis wears female clothing”
Caenis is usually forced to, and has said multiple times that they don’t like it when they wear that stuff
“But caneis doesn’t mind when people use she her”
That’s because Caenis doesn’t gaf. Krish is Caenis’ closest relationship, and Krish refers to Caenis as a guy.
“But Caenis is only like that because of Poseidon”
Untrue, Caenis has always been transmasc.
“But Caenis is physically a girl”
That has nothing to do with being trans or not.
Caenis and Caeneus are the same person. It's not a dual personality - it's one personality.
@@ladaal8867 there is one point that makes me go: yeh that’s silly, what point? the fact in your argument u say she didn’t like doing stuff other females did, so suddenly makes caenis trans, is silly especially when we compare with another that behaves not very lady like Atalanta so what u gonna say Atalanta is trans cause she behaves like she wants and didn’t give a dam about custom? Also just cause a girl behaves and enjoys male stuff dosnt make them trans I would know cause I have know girls like that and guess what they had no problem with their identity that part feels so silly it makes me laugh, people over inflating having different tastes in what u like to do with being trans has always seemed like a super silly argument to me especially when I met people that had suffered from people telling them the u like this u are trans stuff on someone when they weren’t even trans which is silly. This is just my opinion tbh I don’t feel that part holds up in your discussion and counter point
Personally I refer to lancer caenis as male and rider caenis as female. For reasons.
Nice video again informative and entertaining. And to be fair Caenis is call he most if not all the time so i don't think people will mad. Anyways i cannot wait for your next video and i hope you enjoyed make these video as much as i love to watch them
Well if Kishtaria refers to them as he, then I think it IS safe to assume he prefers male pronounces, but is able to tolarte being refered to by female pronounces. I thin overall he dosnt care as long as you dont treat him like a woman. Kinda like Mordred where she fankly dosnt care all that much what pronounce you youse, just dont call her a girl ore try and force her into a gender role. The same I think applys here
You know now that I think about it... the Greek gods really had a thing for transformation whether it was themselves or on others (although that generally was as a punishment). Are we sure the Greeks gods didn't invent the tag for gender swap and transformation?
As for animals they liked we have swans, eagles, peacocks, lions, horses and of course their favourite animal us. You see your dad right now... that might not be him, it could be Zeus. Give him a poke and see if you get a static shock. It's the only way to know. Anyway than you have them punishing mortals by turning them into things like a monstrous spider or snake or more that I'm likely forgetting about. Huh? Is Arachne in FGO? Although I suppose she doesn't do as much nor is she as interesting as Medusa so I guess understand why. But just think of all those legs. The fanservice... the fanservice.
Btw for when you make ur Atalanta Video) "Crossing Arcadia Skill that allows her to avoid obstacles"
Is a reference to a antidote of her skipping over mountains with Artemis bouncing over Rocks and Rivers
6:04 wait a minute see how fate operates why don’t they incorporate that in the fate version?
this might be nitpicking but getting Poseidon's powers was a narrative thing or the uniquie spin for their story like blackbeard being an otaku and roland actually enjoying being naked we do need something original for the story
True. I'm just comparing the characters to the originals. I'm not saying the Fate version is bad if it isn't exactly like the original.
@@CrazyYurie fair enough
I just noticed the word Lapithae, from Caenis's np, is very similar to the word Lapida (pronounced luh-pee-duh), which means tombstone
Thanks for picking up one pronouns. I just can't read her profile without constantly correcting myself, it feels like I'm back in school.
I pretty much had to make a choice for consistency. It's the same reason why I chose to continue calling Roland Roland even though in the Italian poems he gets called Orlando.
omg i was so worried which pronouns you were going to use and i'm actually super happy that you chose to go with he/him, especially considering some of fgo's approaches to trans people. i think what cements him as trans for me is that he specifically has a my room line with da vinci where he is absolutely bewildered she voluntarily became a girl (average interaction between a trans man and a trans woman) and if there is an fgo character who is indisputably trans it's definitely da vinci.
In the lostbelt manga that covers the things that the crypters and the people in the lostbelts were doing before Chaldea arrived, as well as their thoughts and feelings, we find out that the reason Caenis choosed to manifest in their woman form as a servant, is her way of continuing to stick it to poseidon in her own way. Her male identity as Caeneus, and everything she got from that was the compensation she got after Poseidon assaulted Caenis. If she completely cast aside her identity as Caenis, it would be like accepting Poseidon and what her did to her, so she chooses to manifest as Caenis in order to not give Poseidon that last victory. Edit: Also, love your videos and how you pick apart every aspect of the servants lore in order to gauge how faithful to said lore the servant is, and how justifiable the changes to them and their abilities are. Look forward to more of them.
An interesting idea. I really should look at these mangas... I just have so many other things competing for my free time. x_x Also thanks! :D
the reason why i cant, consider this caenis male despite her wishes is that based on lore this is a cover up, she still is and forever will be shaken by what poseidon did, and if i could beat poseidon again, i would do it multiple times, it makes me sad that she had to kinda run away from herself because of that event, and i have to mention, this caenis being even more linked to poseidon doesnt make it a flaw to me ironically, because she herself is disgusted by this fact, she hates having poseidon's divine stuffs
I can’t agree with that, even if you think that, you should always consider someone’s wishes with how they identify. He wishes to be male and is referred to as male. Those who are close with him and he trusts refer to him as male. It is clear that he’s comfortable with his identity and won’t change that.
@@That_demon_thing you are right actually, it may be selfish of me, but when i see caenis, i see someone strong, and just like mordred, when she is on chaldea she can mellow out and try to be who she once was, no need to be tiranical, no need to be aggressive, to be able to love the sea again
Caenis' bond lines kinda imply she's suffering from whatever the changed name for multiple personality disorder is to cope with that where one is male, other is female so technically both ways are correct
@@That_demon_thing treat her like a woman may trigger the memories and trauma poseidon gave her, but i believe that she can face it and be a woman again, this is not me being horny or anything, i love caenis but not this way, its just that i feel like she is strong enough to face it, and maybe accept both versions of her since she hates being a woman and i do believe she is being harsh on herself for doing it
@@bashamd96
Dissociative identity disorder?
You know I can see Caenis getting stuck with someone who treats the heroic spirit with respect but absolutely refuses to use male pronouns in regards to them because they do not care about any sort of identity or image issue the individual may have grafted upon themselves and the heroic spirit for some reason cannot kill them in return. That would be an interesting relationship.
Not being mindful of someone's personal trauma is hardly what I'd call respectful.
Personally I don't believe Caenis is Trans.
The main reason is that the desire to be a man seems to come purely after the assault. The way I see it, Caenis seems to associate being a man with strength and power and being a woman with her weakness and assault. Men where, after all, notably more in power than women in Greece.
In essence, having a female body is technically accurate to her identity, but she prefers male pronouns and still desires a male body as she sees it as empowering and being female and things related to it remind her of a traumatic point in her life
Fail to see how your reason disproves the fact that Caenis is still trans, it doesn't matter that it was a result of trauma, he asked Poseidon for the testosterone
Very well.
I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t care for Caenis’ character or personality in any of her appearances in the story of FGO and frankly I’m glad both versions have stayed in the depths of the Gacha
Caenis is story-locked.
@@CrazyYurie
And somehow Summer Kama NP2ed herself for me while blocking both Summer Sei and Summer Caenis from appearing at all.
Gacha rate ups are weird sometimes 😅