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Great video. I never believed in the alternate wood grain table top. I have built table tops for over 30 years and orient the wood to look the best. Never have I had one warp like we have heard the horror stories. Never. I got a table in my house that I built 30 years ago that is still dead flat. Proper joinery and dry wood is what I go with. Thanks Stumpy for putting this myth to rest. Have a great day sir.
Does this apply across the board, no pun intended, regardless of thickness or does this dimension not matter at all for the purpose of this topic? Thanks in advance for your reply with the knowledge of 30+ years of experience. 👍
Yep. I been building for over 40 years and didn't hear of the alternating theory until well into my career. Like you, I never had a problem, so I always went for the best looking panel.
@@woodworksbygrampies1284 It has for me as most table tops I have done are about 1 1/2 thick. To be honest as I am laying out what is going to look best the boards themselves alternate but not all the time. However I don't pay particular attention to it. One big problem that I have seen is when people prep each board for a glue up, but, the mating panels are not 100% straight. Happened to a friend of mine who does not have a jointer. He straight lined rip 6 boards and the top cupped after gluing. The reason is his blade was set at 88 degrees and as he glued up each board it cupped. Once dry it was a potato chip. Hope that helps.
@@MoyockScorpion I'm taking from this scenario that making sure the blade is set to 90° is as important as any step in this process. Thanks for the tip Richard. 👍
@@MoyockScorpionif your friend had alternated the boards it would have prevented the curve that he got from his saw not being perfectly set to 90 degrees. I'm not sure why he didn't check the blade with a square before doing something like that though.
really now, a lot of people on TH-cam pushed my attention towards woodworking, but actually Stumpy Nubs is the one channel that explains the craft precisely and to the point
As an amateur weekend carpenter just starting in the world of wood I'm finding the most fascinating facet is how wood grows and shrinks with regards to all these conditions and, Moreover, how to understand it, predict it and ultimately control it! Love these videos man, I wouldn't have ever thought I'd have self studied a subject in my life but your videos are fantastically engaging, cheers 🍻
Tage Frid taught this years ago! Thank you Stumpy for getting this out to so many others! So many stupid myths out there that are proffered by so called experts. Folks just because someone is paid to write an article for a publication does not mean they know everything. To put what Stumpy is saying succinctly, the inside of the tree to the outside of the project. Just that simple. Think about this, you have this glorious piece of oak with the most beautiful flame! You know you need to cut this board into strips no wider than 4”-6”. Would you really glue that back so that glorious flame is now only showing on every other board? Of course not! Common sense always rules the day.
Got a table from an auction. Warped top was really bad. Broke the joints holding the legs on one side. Left in the rain by accident over a weekend. Table fixed itself and has been fine for 10 years.
One project that warped was a garage worktable top 1x4 pine lumber. Had oil/wax finish only on the top. Now replaced with 2x6 lumber with breadboard ends. Four coats of oil/mineral spirits on all sides before assembly. No warps after 5 years so far. Made wood storage box (pine) for patio. Used dove tails, floating panels, half lap mitered joints, and four coats of BLO-varnish-spirits on all sides inside and out. It's a test piece. I want to see what fails. It gets wet from rain, lawn sprinklers, hosing off patio. So far so good. Had a bench finished same way but also exposed to direct sun for a few hours per day. That piece began to fail after a year. Results of two failures. Improper finishing and construction for its intended environment.
James, this is the exact same advice I was given by my father and that I have been teaching myself for years. Well done. BTW, the Farmer’s Insurance ad that ran before this vid after I clicked on your thumbnail had the punchline “No need to knock on wood” and made me laugh.
i think i remember Jonas Winkler, a german youtuber, covering this topic aswell. overall he pretty much agreed with everything you mentioned here. he is also rather interested in japanese woodwork and mentioned that, over in asia, they usually dont alternate, but put the outside of the tree facing outward on furniture. so on a tabletop, the core would be on the bottom side. So basically breaking the traditional western rule of thumb on every project. And they still have work that stays straight for generations. Its definetly more about joinery.
Hi James. I remember that over thirty years ago, Norm Abrahams was the one teaching on his TV Channel, the theory alternating boards. That was then and this is now, Thanks.
James, not related to this video, but I am picking up the alpha series Harvey bandsaw. Just placed the order. It’s only about $400 more right now and I’ve never regretted paying a little bit more for quality. I already have the big 4 hp tablesaw, and the dust collector. both have far exceeded my expectations, and I am very pleased. Anyway, knowing that you’re sponsored by them is encouraging to me. You are very careful with your evaluations of equipment, and I know that you would only advertise something you truly believed him. Character matters, and they are wise to have you represent them. Thanks for your hard work and your hard study to teach us the things that greatly improve our time in the shop. Peace and blessings.
I've always been the kind of guy that oriented my boards so that the best faces were in view. I've never had warping as long as the joins and prep were good.
I watched this and said Yeah, He's right. There's so much out there about cupping bench tops, table tops or cupping bread boars. And yet they all need to be looked at differently because there are different factors for each circumstance. Thank you for clarifying the topic.
I have a dining table and two end tables I built over 20 years ago. I used a joinery method that allows the top to move. Not one bit of warping. Excellent points made. Too many times anecdotal methods are taken as gospel. I’m glad you are taking the time to dispel this with facts.
I’m an engineer. I agree with your assessment. I was taught the same things when I worked in a furniture shop as a teenager. You did confirm that there is truth to the theory being used back then, but pointed out options with the theory behind those to support your analysis of better ways to address the problem. What I’d like to know is have you tested it to the extremes ? Often scientific theory does not end up being factual. Most theories do not. However, good science tests the theory to see if you can disprove that theory. This isn’t being done very much anymore. A lot of things are left to analysis only. Which good and necessary but not sufficient by itself. I’m sure you have experience that backs this up as do I, at least it seems to be so most of the time. That said, I had an 20+ year old table that used the anchoring techniques, wooden buttons, and the table top still eventually became noticeably warped. I think it’s because the skirts it was anchored to wasn’t sufficiently designed. Thanks for the very thoughtful insight. It’s one of the many reasons I like your channel.
I started woodworking long before the internet, and I can tell you that the alternating growth ring direction was gospel in some of the popular woodworking magazines at that time. Seemed logical at the time so people followed it. Also, keep in mind that wood expands and contracts perpendicular to the grain, so if you are using breadboard ends, you may want to consider only gluing one end and using a sliding dowel joint or something similar to allow the movement in order to avoid splitting the thing you are trying to keep stable. Probably more important for thinner applications, like 3/4" panels.
Good video. Good info. Keep up the good work. A pearl of wisdom for you concerning outdoor deck construction. Ice on stair treads should always be avoided. How ? Easy. ‘ PITH UP ‘. When using 2 by wide solid lumber, always orient the pith up. As the wood absorbs water in wet weather it will shed water. If the pith side is down, it will likely puddle water and freeze. Icy stairs are never a good thing.
Great video! I always thought this was BS. A proper design and construction with good wood can make all the difference. I like how you explained this topic. Great job.
This video is excellent. I always head woodworkers talking about managing warpage with their joinery, but it's never more than a cursory mention. This video gives a much more complete understanding of what and why when it comes to joinery to combat expansion.
Thanks very much for reinforcing how I thought wood worked. This makes much more sense. I don't mind being corrected if I'm thinking about it wrong, but it's nice to get occasional validation, too. Make sure to get in some trike riding while the weather allows. 🙂
Not sure how far back you review comments, so I am going to leave this here, as it does deal with Joints. I think this would be good for a video. A glue joint, is supposed to be stronger than the wood itself. Actually stronger than the lignin. What am I seeing so many failed glue joints? What a re people doing wrong where so many glue joints fail. Too little glue, too much glue, or something else. Can sanding right before gluing a joint help with the joint?
Another eye opener for me, thanks again for all the good info. I need at least one video from this channel a week and usually they seem to coincide with “first time projects” I am taking on. Between you and Steve Ramsey I feel like I have some good backup on TH-cam for all the info I need!!
This video reminded me of an Antiques Roadshow appraisal of an American Colonial-era dining table that had a two-piece top ~60" diameter. The expert appraiser commented that "this table top isn't the original - in the 1700's, the entire top would have been made from a single piece of wood".
Can we get an example video of one of your projects on this? A table is a handy example but there are many real world projects that need the same solution, I'd love to see a video from you about some of these solutions. We can create our own, but it's always great to see differing solutions from the collective aswell, love the vid, I'm lucky to live in a quite stabile year long environment but still deal with these issues occasionally albeit to a smaller degree
I have made videos showing how I glue up panels, and I have made videos about attaching panels to a frame (table top) while allowing for wood movement that shows it on an actual project. The latter is linked below this video.
Good sir Mr. Stubby Nubs, I absolutely love your show! You have taught me a great deal about woodworking since it’s a hobby I’ve only picked up in the past year and a half two years primarily because I am disabled and there aren’t a lot of things I can do but this is satisfying. I have grown to respect you greatly And have joyed enjoyed every video of yours that I have watched. Which includes going back in your catalog a few years. I just wanted to thank you for the work you do and the tips you give. On occasion I don’t necessarily agree with all of them or follow out of them and sometimes modify them but for the most part they are on the money. I have a few 3M mask with both and N100 and P 100 and filters. I have them I have several doctors one of them being in biochemistry and I have been fitted for many many masks. and somehow at one point in my career I got suffered suckered into being a inspector for pre-pre-inspection inspector that had to do all the things that you demonstrated fitting your mask correctly and I was looking for a lighter mask and I saw yours and I went ahead and ordered one assuming it was red and it came left almost 2 days later which was impressive since it anticipated delivery date to be between August 9 October 9 and October 17. The box displayed a red and black mask I opened it it was neon green and black. A being a person with OCD has helped me to achieve the scholarly achievements that I have. Unfortunately it’s a bit of a double edge sword so when I saw the neon green I was not amused. So I called Amazon and I spoke with someone and I said I try to find tomorrow I can leave them a note or ask a question of Trent and then I realized that the order is fulfilled by Amazon and I can’t leave Amazon a note because the only notes available are notes to be given to the delivery driver. So I took a while shot and clicked on trend and it is simply everything they sell and there is no means of contact. And because Amazon for fill the order kind of calling an Amazon operator. Offshore of course. I’m convinced actually I’ve actually been able to validate my theory that at least 42 countries across the Pacific they are trained by being given scripts and that is all they are trained on so when you deviate from the script or are significantly more not knowledgeable in troubleshooting they are up they don’t know where to go next they just try to stick to your script even though you tell them I did that step many times. But that’s neither here nor there The operator with that with a Home was very generous and Paul refunded the money and told me to keep the mask I had and I said I still want the mask but I would prefer it in red and black how can I communicate that to your distribution center and she said don’t worry order the mask I’ll wait for it to show up on my side and I will attach a note for the distribution center for it to be that you prefer red and black and please fill it ran black. Sure enough to days later showed up Red and black on the outside neon green and black on the outside. So I called again and they refund the money for the mask Amazon is great at that. But they told me not to order it again because they are going to start an investigation on the vendor which I found hilarious. Much worse things happened to me from vendors and they have not to listen close to that but again I was getting an operator from south-central America who are actually I found out trained much in the same manner people from the states are trained so they know the ins and outs of the system And she told me do not order it again because you’re probably gonna get the same thing no matter what we do and we’re gonna start investigation or found your money bubble box but you’re right the mask is great but my OCD is compelling need to find a red and black one so I been scouring the Internet to find one and everywhere else they are twice what they are off of your link crazy. I found a video from a guy who absolutely hated them. And he talked about why he didn’t like the way the class worked on the back he didn’t like the way he fit on the back of his head he didn’t like the way it kept his mouth he didn’t think the class the tea class that hold the filter space in place were strong enough and it didn’t fit when he put his hat on. And I was just shaking my head the whole time because I know how these things fit I’m also mechanical engineer so I told him I mean no disrespect but it is very possible you’re a larger man I’m not trying to pick on you or diminish you in anyway it may be that the medium large the larges I’ve seen on Amazon is simply not big enough for your face and that might be why you’re not getting a great fit and you’re getting condensation in your mask. Secondly, because it is not a secure fit that’s the reason you’re getting condensation and you get condensation in there once and don’t let it dry out you are gonna get an odd smell in there very quickly. As far as the class go there unconventional I will agree with you on that but they’re very efficient and they come apart and go together very easily to. Finally him you should never wear a cap or hat underneath the fittings of your mask. These masks are intended to fit your head without accessories I am trying to do so will make it impossible to get a good fit because hats are not a smooth form as your skull is. Anyway he just made me laugh. But again I just thought you might find that funny. I am a fan and I trust every chip you give because even if I have a model modify them or they may not work for me all the time for the most part they do it for the most part they saw problems that I am running into as a newer woodworker and I just wanted to thank you for that and for all the work and the time and effort you put into making the videos and putting them out there and you have such a soothing voice and that it just makes it all the better thank you.
As a european i feel compelled to recommend the sliding dovetail as a joinery option to prevent warping. It's not an easy joint to do, but some projects really lend themselfes to this joint.
@@jimurrata6785 I guess a breadboard with a sliding dovetail is possible, but i'm not sure if its wise to do it as its a bit complicated to get a really clean shoulder on a sliding dovetail. The traditional style is as a batten across the backside. Sometimes this batten houses the mortises for the legs, sometimes you have a normal frame.
So many myths to bust... Thanks so much for this one! What about using a single uncut slab? Is there still an advantage to making, say, a tabletop out of several narrow boards?
I always made my own raised panel doors, some with panels 12"-16" wide. I must've made over 1,000 over a period of 35 years professionally. The NA industry standard is 6.5% EMC. One of my MOs was a solid single-piece panel for the grain, always orienting the cathedrals upwards. Yes, some pulled away from the dado in the stiles, but I never had to remake any. The best wide boards from my experience were two years of air-drying and only then kiln-drying.
Just the best. James, you understand the subject matter. And you continue to share it with all of us. I love how kind and gracious you are to your dissenters. Thanks for another really great video.
As long as you use slots to allow for movement, they are a decent option for a slab that can not be attached to the frame or secured with breadboard ends.
I got news. I’ve been gluing down and screwing solid tops for tables and desks for the last 50 years. I have never left the room for them to slide and expand with special room for the table tops to slide around and expand. And not one desk and table dining room table has ever warped or expanded. I must say that I fully seal both sides and put a lot of glue and screws on the bottom.
That's a big misunderstanding i see on YT. The key to stabilize a panel is to rip at the heart of the wood and flip on of the strip so the tensions cancel one another. Sometimes breadboards are not what we want for the look of the project. When properly layed out a glued panel is very stable.
Norm Abrams always alternated his wood grain on glue ups. He also used a lot of breadboard edges. If can get the grain to look good with it alternated, then that's how I do it. I think it really does help and Norm really knows his shit. But if it doesn't look right then I will flip it over. I also think sealing the end grain also helps, because that is by far the most porous part of the wood.
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Perfect timing! I’m just designing a small/foldable workbench with a top made of (3) 2x8, and I was looking for that kind of information. I am planning on using 3/4 plywood between the aprons and the bench top. I’ll route small grooves in it for the screws, instead of drilling regular holes, to account for wood movement. I’m hoping it’ll help keep the 3 slabs flat while still allowing wood expansion. I’m very new to woodworking and I really like your channel. I learnt so much in no time thanks to you.
Good stuff. Although in more recent times alternating growth rings has not really been a thing here in the UK. Also seems more prevalent with machinists. Dividing boards boards, to me, is more about making flattening easier or reducing cup prior to dimensioning. Old timey turn buttons in a mortice is my go to table top fastener.
Thanks for showcasing the Trend Stealth masks. I've been using the pink and yellow respirator from the box store and it's too bulky. Always in my peripheral vision. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge with us.
Completely agree! Years ago I read an article that explained one large cup was easier to control than several small cups. I tried both ways and came away with the same conclusion, use proper jointery and go for the best look.
Hola! 🖐Another awesome, super informative, and educational video. Grammy and I are working on a design (aka sketching) for a dinner table so this info is on point and on time. I'll check out your other videos you have linked here, if I haven't viewed them already. CHECK that, even if I have watched them I'll watch them again just to absorb this info. Take care and have a good one, Adios! 👊
Totally agree. Always love your honest, practical tutorials. As I learn more about woodworking I just try to stay empirical about the nature of wood. Your videos always line up with what I experience first-hand. Keep teaching us the truth.
I have poplar shelves with no sealant of any kind used for shelves for shoes. It has room to move and the shelves rest in place. They aren't sealed with any finish and even being by the front door in Minnesota in a closet, there is no warping. It sure seems like the joinery - and just controlling humidity in the house, makes all the difference. Not - we don't put wet shoes and boots on them. Dry storage only.
Well done Jonathan. In my 40+ years experience, assuming the wood is properly dry and acclimated, the key to preventing warpage (in addition to proper joinery) is the application of finish on all six sides. Most often finish on the underside is not applied allowing for the absorption of moisture, hence the warping. I've built hundreds of projects using properly dried and acclimated materials and have never had an issue with warping because every surface has finish applied. Many woodworkers build in their garages and wood is never acclimated until it is brought into the house where the wood then reacts.
"Swelling in the winter and shrinking in the summer" caught my eye (ear?) as false. A google search later, apparently some places, winter air is more humid than summer. Where I live the winter air is bone dry and that shows on my guitars.
Just started taking a furniture class and my instructor said the same thing. Was a bit confused since I saw the alternating idea everywhere else but it sounds like I can put more trust in his decades of experience! 😆
I collected Fine Woodworking mag in it's beginning. I vaguely remember reading about wood movement but it was too complicated and I paid the price on a few projects. I switched to veneered plywood for predictability. In the Southwest we have severe wood issues due to the extremely low humidity. Antiques from "back east" take a beating in shrinkage and splitting. Plywood seems to be the only pretty solution. Are there suggestions for entering and current woodies? Tutorials possible?
What about housed sliding dovetails? Once you have a setup, it goes quickly. I keep setups for various thicknesses using cutoffs from previous work. Never had any problems with table tops - they can shrink and expand and the dovetail joinery keeps the boards flat!
I think it will depend on where you are and if you are climate controlled...here in north central California, we are a desert in summer, humidity is 4-18% and temps 90-115F. Winter is generally anything up to 40% rh when not raining, and high temps are generally 40-60F.
If you prefer to hand plane a table top alternating the boards would be a disaster. Instead you should make sure the grain is running the same direction on every board and ignore the grouth rings. And as stumpy said_ add a bread board end
When the wood is straight, is there a way to treat it in a way to keep it stable for good? Like soaking it in something or spraying/coating it so it cant absorb water?
This was a fantastic video (as always) and the sponsorship at the end had this airline safety video vibe to it too so I had a little chuckle there (I also use trend masks thanks to your previous mentions). One question regarding joinery. When doing a water fall finish where you are mitering the edge and then go I g with dominoes, is it better to do the loose tenons on the inside or the outside of the board?
I assume you mean river tables which have a section of resin running down the center with solid wood on either side? The wood is free to expand and contract in width on either side of the resin, so there is no issue there.
Thinking more of wood being sealed with epoxy...as long as it is completely sealed, all sides, the wood will not move is what Ive heard, is this correct? I would think that if you failed to seal the entire project, like only doing one side and edges, youd get moisture changes and movement still...
This is one of the main reasons I regret not taking up woodworking. I love woodworking and making small things but the larger ones always warp and I cannot justify the waste. I just do not have the skills, knowledge, or tools to prevent/repair it.
Easiest way for me to understand is how there are several boards I’ve had that stayed perfect even after milling. Some boards just do not warp even over large distances. I guess I buy boring wood.
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Outstanding video. Great info. I’m going to incorporate that information into my woodworking.
Those diagrams were very helpful to understanding what you were saying. Thanks for doing what you do!
Great video. I never believed in the alternate wood grain table top. I have built table tops for over 30 years and orient the wood to look the best. Never have I had one warp like we have heard the horror stories. Never. I got a table in my house that I built 30 years ago that is still dead flat. Proper joinery and dry wood is what I go with. Thanks Stumpy for putting this myth to rest. Have a great day sir.
Does this apply across the board, no pun intended, regardless of thickness or does this dimension not matter at all for the purpose of this topic? Thanks in advance for your reply with the knowledge of 30+ years of experience. 👍
Yep. I been building for over 40 years and didn't hear of the alternating theory until well into my career. Like you, I never had a problem, so I always went for the best looking panel.
@@woodworksbygrampies1284 It has for me as most table tops I have done are about 1 1/2 thick. To be honest as I am laying out what is going to look best the boards themselves alternate but not all the time. However I don't pay particular attention to it. One big problem that I have seen is when people prep each board for a glue up, but, the mating panels are not 100% straight. Happened to a friend of mine who does not have a jointer. He straight lined rip 6 boards and the top cupped after gluing. The reason is his blade was set at 88 degrees and as he glued up each board it cupped. Once dry it was a potato chip. Hope that helps.
@@MoyockScorpion I'm taking from this scenario that making sure the blade is set to 90° is as important as any step in this process. Thanks for the tip Richard. 👍
@@MoyockScorpionif your friend had alternated the boards it would have prevented the curve that he got from his saw not being perfectly set to 90 degrees. I'm not sure why he didn't check the blade with a square before doing something like that though.
I have nothing to say really, but I appreciate your content, and wish to help with the yt-algorithms.
really now, a lot of people on TH-cam pushed my attention towards woodworking, but actually Stumpy Nubs is the one channel that explains the craft precisely and to the point
As an amateur weekend carpenter just starting in the world of wood I'm finding the most fascinating facet is how wood grows and shrinks with regards to all these conditions and, Moreover, how to understand it, predict it and ultimately control it! Love these videos man, I wouldn't have ever thought I'd have self studied a subject in my life but your videos are fantastically engaging, cheers 🍻
Hear, hear!!
Talking about warping, that shelf behind you is starting to get a bit of a smile to it.
Thanks for this James, backs up what Rob Cosman's been saying for years.
Tage Frid taught this years ago! Thank you Stumpy for getting this out to so many others! So many stupid myths out there that are proffered by so called experts. Folks just because someone is paid to write an article for a publication does not mean they know everything.
To put what Stumpy is saying succinctly, the inside of the tree to the outside of the project. Just that simple. Think about this, you have this glorious piece of oak with the most beautiful flame! You know you need to cut this board into strips no wider than 4”-6”. Would you really glue that back so that glorious flame is now only showing on every other board? Of course not! Common sense always rules the day.
Got a table from an auction. Warped top was really bad. Broke the joints holding the legs on one side. Left in the rain by accident over a weekend. Table fixed itself and has been fine for 10 years.
Thanks for sharing that information about wood movement with us. Stay safe around there, Fred.
One project that warped was a garage worktable top 1x4 pine lumber. Had oil/wax finish only on the top. Now replaced with 2x6 lumber with breadboard ends. Four coats of oil/mineral spirits on all sides before assembly. No warps after 5 years so far. Made wood storage box (pine) for patio. Used dove tails, floating panels, half lap mitered joints, and four coats of BLO-varnish-spirits on all sides inside and out. It's a test piece. I want to see what fails. It gets wet from rain, lawn sprinklers, hosing off patio. So far so good. Had a bench finished same way but also exposed to direct sun for a few hours per day. That piece began to fail after a year. Results of two failures. Improper finishing and construction for its intended environment.
Always love these kinds of topics, James. Thanks for sharing and offering supporting ideas.
James, this is the exact same advice I was given by my father and that I have been teaching myself for years. Well done. BTW, the Farmer’s Insurance ad that ran before this vid after I clicked on your thumbnail had the punchline “No need to knock on wood” and made me laugh.
Ok I ordered a mask. Now you are making the big bucks.
i think i remember Jonas Winkler, a german youtuber, covering this topic aswell. overall he pretty much agreed with everything you mentioned here. he is also rather interested in japanese woodwork and mentioned that, over in asia, they usually dont alternate, but put the outside of the tree facing outward on furniture. so on a tabletop, the core would be on the bottom side. So basically breaking the traditional western rule of thumb on every project. And they still have work that stays straight for generations.
Its definetly more about joinery.
Ugh! Now I have to delete my 40 year old thinking! Great info. Wish I new this a long time ago
Hi James. I remember that over thirty years ago, Norm Abrahams was the one teaching on his TV Channel, the theory alternating boards. That was then and this is now, Thanks.
James, not related to this video, but I am picking up the alpha series Harvey bandsaw. Just placed the order. It’s only about $400 more right now and I’ve never regretted paying a little bit more for quality. I already have the big 4 hp tablesaw, and the dust collector. both have far exceeded my expectations, and I am very pleased. Anyway, knowing that you’re sponsored by them is encouraging to me. You are very careful with your evaluations of equipment, and I know that you would only advertise something you truly believed him.
Character matters, and they are wise to have you represent them. Thanks for your hard work and your hard study to teach us the things that greatly improve our time in the shop. Peace and blessings.
I've always been the kind of guy that oriented my boards so that the best faces were in view.
I've never had warping as long as the joins and prep were good.
I watched this and said Yeah, He's right. There's so much out there about cupping bench tops, table tops or cupping bread boars. And yet they all need to be looked at differently because there are different factors for each circumstance. Thank you for clarifying the topic.
Methods that I definitely did not know, however I have not had a warping problem with any of the furniture that I have built.
I have a dining table and two end tables I built over 20 years ago. I used a joinery method that allows the top to move. Not one bit of warping. Excellent points made. Too many times anecdotal methods are taken as gospel. I’m glad you are taking the time to dispel this with facts.
I’m an engineer. I agree with your assessment. I was taught the same things when I worked in a furniture shop as a teenager. You did confirm that there is truth to the theory being used back then, but pointed out options with the theory behind those to support your analysis of better ways to address the problem. What I’d like to know is have you tested it to the extremes ? Often scientific theory does not end up being factual. Most theories do not. However, good science tests the theory to see if you can disprove that theory. This isn’t being done very much anymore. A lot of things are left to analysis only. Which good and necessary but not sufficient by itself. I’m sure you have experience that backs this up as do I, at least it seems to be so most of the time. That said, I had an 20+ year old table that used the anchoring techniques, wooden buttons, and the table top still eventually became noticeably warped. I think it’s because the skirts it was anchored to wasn’t sufficiently designed. Thanks for the very thoughtful insight. It’s one of the many reasons I like your channel.
I started woodworking long before the internet, and I can tell you that the alternating growth ring direction was gospel in some of the popular woodworking magazines at that time. Seemed logical at the time so people followed it. Also, keep in mind that wood expands and contracts perpendicular to the grain, so if you are using breadboard ends, you may want to consider only gluing one end and using a sliding dowel joint or something similar to allow the movement in order to avoid splitting the thing you are trying to keep stable. Probably more important for thinner applications, like 3/4" panels.
This is really incisive and useful information. Take it to the bank folks.
Good video. Good info. Keep up the good work. A pearl of wisdom for you concerning outdoor deck construction. Ice on stair treads should always be avoided. How ? Easy. ‘ PITH UP ‘. When using 2 by wide solid lumber, always orient the pith up. As the wood absorbs water in wet weather it will shed water. If the pith side is down, it will likely puddle water and freeze. Icy stairs are never a good thing.
YOU TELL EM STUMPY!!
I like using quarter sawn. As you can see the medullary rays. It is really pretty in maple
Great video! I always thought this was BS. A proper design and construction with good wood can make all the difference. I like how you explained this topic. Great job.
This video is excellent. I always head woodworkers talking about managing warpage with their joinery, but it's never more than a cursory mention. This video gives a much more complete understanding of what and why when it comes to joinery to combat expansion.
Thanks very much for reinforcing how I thought wood worked. This makes much more sense. I don't mind being corrected if I'm thinking about it wrong, but it's nice to get occasional validation, too. Make sure to get in some trike riding while the weather allows. 🙂
Very useful, and certainly news to me.
Not sure how far back you review comments, so I am going to leave this here, as it does deal with Joints. I think this would be good for a video. A glue joint, is supposed to be stronger than the wood itself. Actually stronger than the lignin. What am I seeing so many failed glue joints? What a re people doing wrong where so many glue joints fail. Too little glue, too much glue, or something else. Can sanding right before gluing a joint help with the joint?
WOW! Good stuff again Stumpy! You're a wealth of knowledge! Another myth BUSTED! 😎😎
Another eye opener for me, thanks again for all the good info. I need at least one video from this channel a week and usually they seem to coincide with “first time projects” I am taking on. Between you and Steve Ramsey I feel like I have some good backup on TH-cam for all the info I need!!
This video reminded me of an Antiques Roadshow appraisal of an American Colonial-era dining table that had a two-piece top ~60" diameter. The expert appraiser commented that "this table top isn't the original - in the 1700's, the entire top would have been made from a single piece of wood".
LOL...
Can we get an example video of one of your projects on this? A table is a handy example but there are many real world projects that need the same solution, I'd love to see a video from you about some of these solutions. We can create our own, but it's always great to see differing solutions from the collective aswell, love the vid, I'm lucky to live in a quite stabile year long environment but still deal with these issues occasionally albeit to a smaller degree
I have made videos showing how I glue up panels, and I have made videos about attaching panels to a frame (table top) while allowing for wood movement that shows it on an actual project. The latter is linked below this video.
@@StumpyNubs thanks man, I'll check them out. I'm pretty seasoned but always hungry for more information and knowledge 👌
Thanks so much!
Good sir Mr. Stubby Nubs, I absolutely love your show! You have taught me a great deal about woodworking since it’s a hobby I’ve only picked up in the past year and a half two years primarily because I am disabled and there aren’t a lot of things I can do but this is satisfying. I have grown to respect you greatly And have joyed enjoyed every video of yours that I have watched. Which includes going back in your catalog a few years. I just wanted to thank you for the work you do and the tips you give. On occasion I don’t necessarily agree with all of them or follow out of them and sometimes modify them but for the most part they are on the money.
I have a few 3M mask with both and N100 and P 100 and filters. I have them I have several doctors one of them being in biochemistry and I have been fitted for many many masks. and somehow at one point in my career I got suffered suckered into being a inspector for pre-pre-inspection inspector that had to do all the things that you demonstrated fitting your mask correctly and I was looking for a lighter mask and I saw yours and I went ahead and ordered one assuming it was red and it came left almost 2 days later which was impressive since it anticipated delivery date to be between August 9 October 9 and October 17. The box displayed a red and black mask I opened it it was neon green and black. A being a person with OCD has helped me to achieve the scholarly achievements that I have. Unfortunately it’s a bit of a double edge sword so when I saw the neon green I was not amused. So I called Amazon and I spoke with someone and I said I try to find tomorrow I can leave them a note or ask a question of Trent and then I realized that the order is fulfilled by Amazon and I can’t leave Amazon a note because the only notes available are notes to be given to the delivery driver.
So I took a while shot and clicked on trend and it is simply everything they sell and there is no means of contact. And because Amazon for fill the order kind of calling an Amazon operator. Offshore of course. I’m convinced actually I’ve actually been able to validate my theory that at least 42 countries across the Pacific they are trained by being given scripts and that is all they are trained on so when you deviate from the script or are significantly more not knowledgeable in troubleshooting they are up they don’t know where to go next they just try to stick to your script even though you tell them I did that step many times. But that’s neither here nor there
The operator with that with a Home was very generous and Paul refunded the money and told me to keep the mask I had and I said I still want the mask but I would prefer it in red and black how can I communicate that to your distribution center and she said don’t worry order the mask I’ll wait for it to show up on my side and I will attach a note for the distribution center for it to be that you prefer red and black and please fill it ran black. Sure enough to days later showed up Red and black on the outside neon green and black on the outside. So I called again and they refund the money for the mask Amazon is great at that. But they told me not to order it again because they are going to start an investigation on the vendor which I found hilarious.
Much worse things happened to me from vendors and they have not to listen close to that but again I was getting an operator from south-central America who are actually I found out trained much in the same manner people from the states are trained so they know the ins and outs of the system And she told me do not order it again because you’re probably gonna get the same thing no matter what we do and we’re gonna start investigation or found your money bubble box but you’re right the mask is great but my OCD is compelling need to find a red and black one so I been scouring the Internet to find one and everywhere else they are twice what they are off of your link crazy.
I found a video from a guy who absolutely hated them. And he talked about why he didn’t like the way the class worked on the back he didn’t like the way he fit on the back of his head he didn’t like the way it kept his mouth he didn’t think the class the tea class that hold the filter space in place were strong enough and it didn’t fit when he put his hat on. And I was just shaking my head the whole time because I know how these things fit I’m also mechanical engineer so I told him I mean no disrespect but it is very possible you’re a larger man I’m not trying to pick on you or diminish you in anyway it may be that the medium large the larges I’ve seen on Amazon is simply not big enough for your face and that might be why you’re not getting a great fit and you’re getting condensation in your mask. Secondly, because it is not a secure fit that’s the reason you’re getting condensation and you get condensation in there once and don’t let it dry out you are gonna get an odd smell in there very quickly. As far as the class go there unconventional I will agree with you on that but they’re very efficient and they come apart and go together very easily to. Finally him you should never wear a cap or hat underneath the fittings of your mask. These masks are intended to fit your head without accessories I am trying to do so will make it impossible to get a good fit because hats are not a smooth form as your skull is. Anyway he just made me laugh. But again I just thought you might find that funny.
I am a fan and I trust every chip you give because even if I have a model modify them or they may not work for me all the time for the most part they do it for the most part they saw problems that I am running into as a newer woodworker and I just wanted to thank you for that and for all the work and the time and effort you put into making the videos and putting them out there and you have such a soothing voice and that it just makes it all the better thank you.
BRO! super helpful.. i just made a solid top.. and while now i'm 100% sure its going to move at least a little.. now i know why lol.
Thanks for sharing those tips!
As a european i feel compelled to recommend the sliding dovetail as a joinery option to prevent warping. It's not an easy joint to do, but some projects really lend themselfes to this joint.
As a breadboard end of as a batten across the back side of the panel?
@@jimurrata6785 I guess a breadboard with a sliding dovetail is possible, but i'm not sure if its wise to do it as its a bit complicated to get a really clean shoulder on a sliding dovetail.
The traditional style is as a batten across the backside. Sometimes this batten houses the mortises for the legs, sometimes you have a normal frame.
So many myths to bust... Thanks so much for this one! What about using a single uncut slab? Is there still an advantage to making, say, a tabletop out of several narrow boards?
I always made my own raised panel doors, some with panels 12"-16" wide. I must've made over 1,000 over a period of 35 years professionally. The NA industry standard is 6.5% EMC. One of my MOs was a solid single-piece panel for the grain, always orienting the cathedrals upwards. Yes, some pulled away from the dado in the stiles, but I never had to remake any. The best wide boards from my experience were two years of air-drying and only then kiln-drying.
Just the best. James, you understand the subject matter. And you continue to share it with all of us. I love how kind and gracious you are to your dissenters. Thanks for another really great video.
For table tops, especially single or book matched slabs, what is your opinion of steel c-channel inlays on the underside to resist warping?
As long as you use slots to allow for movement, they are a decent option for a slab that can not be attached to the frame or secured with breadboard ends.
I got news. I’ve been gluing down and screwing solid tops for tables and desks for the last 50 years. I have never left the room for them to slide and expand with special room for the table tops to slide around and expand. And not one desk and table dining room table has ever warped or expanded. I must say that I fully seal both sides and put a lot of glue and screws on the bottom.
That's a big misunderstanding i see on YT. The key to stabilize a panel is to rip at the heart of the wood and flip on of the strip so the tensions cancel one another. Sometimes breadboards are not what we want for the look of the project. When properly layed out a glued panel is very stable.
Norm Abrams always alternated his wood grain on glue ups. He also used a lot of breadboard edges. If can get the grain to look good with it alternated, then that's how I do it. I think it really does help and Norm really knows his shit. But if it doesn't look right then I will flip it over. I also think sealing the end grain also helps, because that is by far the most porous part of the wood.
Perfect timing! I’m just designing a small/foldable workbench with a top made of (3) 2x8, and I was looking for that kind of information. I am planning on using 3/4 plywood between the aprons and the bench top. I’ll route small grooves in it for the screws, instead of drilling regular holes, to account for wood movement. I’m hoping it’ll help keep the 3 slabs flat while still allowing wood expansion. I’m very new to woodworking and I really like your channel. I learnt so much in no time thanks to you.
Good stuff. Although in more recent times alternating growth rings has not really been a thing here in the UK. Also seems more prevalent with machinists. Dividing boards boards, to me, is more about making flattening easier or reducing cup prior to dimensioning. Old timey turn buttons in a mortice is my go to table top fastener.
Thanks for showcasing the Trend Stealth masks. I've been using the pink and yellow respirator from the box store and it's too bulky. Always in my peripheral vision. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge with us.
What a great video. I am converted, thank you for this knowledge.
Thanks for those great tips I always get so much out of your content
Completely agree! Years ago I read an article that explained one large cup was easier to control than several small cups. I tried both ways and came away with the same conclusion, use proper jointery and go for the best look.
Hola! 🖐Another awesome, super informative, and educational video. Grammy and I are working on a design (aka sketching) for a dinner table so this info is on point and on time. I'll check out your other videos you have linked here, if I haven't viewed them already. CHECK that, even if I have watched them I'll watch them again just to absorb this info. Take care and have a good one, Adios! 👊
Totally agree. Always love your honest, practical tutorials. As I learn more about woodworking I just try to stay empirical about the nature of wood. Your videos always line up with what I experience first-hand. Keep teaching us the truth.
Thanks For The Great Info!!!!! 👍😎
Even the all knowing Norm Abram used the alternating growth rings in his New Yankee Workshop videos.
I've seen it in lots of books too. It's one of those things that sounds right, so it gets repeated.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us James.
Fantastic info, James! Thanks a bunch! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I have poplar shelves with no sealant of any kind used for shelves for shoes. It has room to move and the shelves rest in place. They aren't sealed with any finish and even being by the front door in Minnesota in a closet, there is no warping. It sure seems like the joinery - and just controlling humidity in the house, makes all the difference. Not - we don't put wet shoes and boots on them. Dry storage only.
Great info. Thank you as always
Wait, woods swells in the winter and shrinks in the summer? I would have thought it was the opposite. Learned something new.
A simple misspeak.
Great information presented clearly and concisely, once again. Thank you and keep 'em coming!
Well done Jonathan. In my 40+ years experience, assuming the wood is properly dry and acclimated, the key to preventing warpage (in addition to proper joinery) is the application of finish on all six sides. Most often finish on the underside is not applied allowing for the absorption of moisture, hence the warping. I've built hundreds of projects using properly dried and acclimated materials and have never had an issue with warping because every surface has finish applied. Many woodworkers build in their garages and wood is never acclimated until it is brought into the house where the wood then reacts.
Who is Jonathan?
@@StumpyNubs hi John🤜👋🤟
I'm Jim :)
@@StumpyNubs So sorry.
@@hardnox6655 No prob, Bob :)
"Swelling in the winter and shrinking in the summer" caught my eye (ear?) as false. A google search later, apparently some places, winter air is more humid than summer. Where I live the winter air is bone dry and that shows on my guitars.
It was a simple misspeak.
Once again: thanks! Extremely useful video.
Great discussion James. Thanks for sharing it.
Very informative videos
James Hamilton for president. You could even name a musical after him. Big TRUTH “wood” garner his administration. At least in my shop, he rulers.
Just started taking a furniture class and my instructor said the same thing. Was a bit confused since I saw the alternating idea everywhere else but it sounds like I can put more trust in his decades of experience! 😆
Thank you!
When I made tables for yachts we would vac bag 3 layers of wood with alternating glue joints to make a 3 inch thick table.
Most softwood boards I see like fascia boards seem to cup the same direction of the growth rings
I collected Fine Woodworking mag in it's beginning. I vaguely remember reading about wood movement but it was too complicated and I paid the price on a few projects. I switched to veneered plywood for predictability. In the Southwest we have severe wood issues due to the extremely low humidity. Antiques from "back east" take a beating in shrinkage and splitting. Plywood seems to be the only pretty solution. Are there suggestions for entering and current woodies? Tutorials possible?
timely! Thanks Stumpy!
What about housed sliding dovetails? Once you have a setup, it goes quickly. I keep setups for various thicknesses using cutoffs from previous work. Never had any problems with table tops - they can shrink and expand and the dovetail joinery keeps the boards flat!
"swelling in the winter and shrinking in the summer"? I have heard that humidity is higher in summer than in winter? How does that go?
I must have misspoke.
@@StumpyNubs no offense just a clarification
I think it will depend on where you are and if you are climate controlled...here in north central California, we are a desert in summer, humidity is 4-18% and temps 90-115F. Winter is generally anything up to 40% rh when not raining, and high temps are generally 40-60F.
If you prefer to hand plane a table top alternating the boards would be a disaster.
Instead you should make sure the grain is running the same direction on every board and ignore the grouth rings. And as stumpy said_ add a bread board end
When the wood is straight, is there a way to treat it in a way to keep it stable for good? Like soaking it in something or spraying/coating it so it cant absorb water?
This was a fantastic video (as always) and the sponsorship at the end had this airline safety video vibe to it too so I had a little chuckle there (I also use trend masks thanks to your previous mentions).
One question regarding joinery. When doing a water fall finish where you are mitering the edge and then go I g with dominoes, is it better to do the loose tenons on the inside or the outside of the board?
I see you king
Thanks for sharing , very informative
Very well explained. Thanks
Your old furniture example was made with quarter sawn lumber.
So what about woodworking benches? Should we anchor them as well? I want mine to stay flat. Any ideas for what a good way to do that would be?
I have an old interior "warped" wood door in my apartment. Do you have "trick" on how to bring it back straight and flat ?
Thanks for the video, always enjoy watching!
what about battens? (esp the fancy sliding dovetail ones)
This was a great video. It made me wonder about all the trendy epoxy and wood tables being made. How does wood expansion work with the epoxy material?
I assume you mean river tables which have a section of resin running down the center with solid wood on either side? The wood is free to expand and contract in width on either side of the resin, so there is no issue there.
Thinking more of wood being sealed with epoxy...as long as it is completely sealed, all sides, the wood will not move is what Ive heard, is this correct? I would think that if you failed to seal the entire project, like only doing one side and edges, youd get moisture changes and movement still...
On Point Once Again. Great Info.
Great tips, thanks for sharing 🤘😎
Great video, boss! Thank you!
This is one of the main reasons I regret not taking up woodworking. I love woodworking and making small things but the larger ones always warp and I cannot justify the waste. I just do not have the skills, knowledge, or tools to prevent/repair it.
Should we finish both sides ?Hope this isn’t a can of worms!
People debate that, as well. But I see no downside to finishing both sides and always do so on my projects.
Good info to know!
Facts smacts, I'd rather trust the hearsay at the local watering joint. The man with 2 3-finger hands must know what he is talking about.
Easiest way for me to understand is how there are several boards I’ve had that stayed perfect even after milling. Some boards just do not warp even over large distances. I guess I buy boring wood.