FFXIV Dawntrail Job Changes in the Wrong Direction...?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Yoshi-P released a statement discussing job changes due to Dawntrail's release, some of which makes sense and others.... certainly not. Especially that of Viper, and the tank changes seem... strange? Or more a product of overall skill? Who knows. WE DISCUSS IT ALL HERE.
#dawntrail #finalfantasyxiv #vtuber
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Love how it's been a week and already the playerbase wants to change what feels like the best dungeons and best classes we've seen in years. Can't have shit in Eorzea.
I do think its a product of those complaining are the loudest for the expac - generally positive thoughts and feelings aren't screamed at the devs/forums. Hopefully this changes in time and they wont change up things too much!
It's so frustrating that we can't have anything. The new duties are actually engaging and fun and the new jobs as well. Viper is so simple already, and it's irritating to me seeing casuals and people with disabilities saying they want jobs changed for accessibility reasons when the reality is, unless you're doing Savage content, you do not need to do a perfect rotation. If you can't hit positionals then don't hit them, it's literally 50 potency difference, at worst, a dungeon will take a couple minutes extra. Not to mention there are 21 jobs, it takes a wild level of entitlement to think every job should need to be playable optimally by you because you have a disability or just struggle with it. I am physically disabled, in EW I was on heavy meds from surgery and couldn't play most of the harder jobs, and you know what I did? I played jobs like SMN and DNC that I could play comfortably, I didn't complain about not being able to play BLM saying it needed to be changed.
It's frustrating because we finally got some stuff that is actually engaging when so much feels boring and overly simplified and yet it's never enough, any time something requires even a tiny bit of effort they complain and the devs only listen to them when it actually doesn't affect them. Just don't do positionals if you can't, no one cares in normal content.
It's stuff like this that will push me to quit.
@@gamermasterL Same, I hate to say it, I've played since ARR, but I maxed Picto and couldn't even feel motivation to level most of the other jobs because they feel boring by comparison. BLM hurt my soul already, I'm halfway maxed on Viper, if they take positionals and don't replace with something, that job will be so boring.
I agree that its weird that they're going to change viper already. I haven't heard anyone complaining neither in NA or in JP. The most I've heard is someone saying their partner can't play it because of their arthritis but I don't feel like Viper gameplay is that much more intense than any other job. Sometimes I wish they'd show the comments they've gotten that influences these changes. Like when Sage's icon got changed because of tryptophobia. Good video!
@@Projectainavale Thank you so much! Yes - it is a strange, as I havent seen anyone complain either. There are lots of other options for melee, however Im not stating it should stop people from playing it. The majority of content can easily be played WITHOUT positionals too, simply because potencies are high. It is a fast job but this is the same for NIN - a very fast job, but Vipers intensity feels less because their combo changes from 1/2 buttons, instead of pressing 6 buttons in all different places.
Im assuming its come from the forum complaints?
@@RoseEvaYukihana I’m not sure, I’ve been playing Viper since day 1 and just hit 100 yesterday, but I’m absolutely loving the class. I just hope whatever changes they do end up making don’t mess it up too bad, I like hitting all my buttons. Plus you’re probably right about it being on the forums but I’ve still barely seen any posts. Most seem to think it’s streamers and otherwise who are complaining but I think most who attended the media tour liked Viper
337 apm on a class is crazy, my wrist hurts from all the pulls of the EX LMAO
I haven't played Viper (and I don't plan to any time soon) but the only conceivable reason I can think of to lower positional requirements is to make it so you have to press A and D less frequently which *technically* lowers how busy the job is. However I don't think that's healthy for the game at all, having a high speed high skill job that benefits from good movement is what a lot of players want because old monk was completely gutted from the game.
While leveling sage through MSQ and now doing AST to 100, I have definitely noticed tanks having agro issues because it means I'm usually the first actual target, lol.
Speaking of AST, while I don't play it hardcore enough to know if the light speed changes are going to matter or not, I can say that it feels like an eternity between astral draw and umbral draw. The easiest way to break down the cards is your first card is the old DPS gains, The second card is a defensive buff, and the third card is a 'heal'. I definitely feel encouraged on trash packs to give the appropriate DPS their card, give the tank the other two cards, and then wait 55 more seconds for the next draw. On bosses it feels a little bit better because the cards that aren't DPS cards can be used sparingly depending on the encounter.
As for VPR, I am of the opinion that the job looks busy at first glance but is not. It is the first job where it is better to just push buttons then actually read anything because that's what will confuse you. And while I don't think it's positionals are difficult, I am in favor of removing positionals outright in favor of a different form of skill expression, however, I don't know what that would be. As Max from team liquid says, players are excellent in identifying problems but horrible at coming up with solutions
@@CelticShaman. Thank you so much for this comment, and explaining more on the tank aggro situation!
It is perhaps moving into a situation of removing positionals entirely for another form of skill expression, as you said!
My thoughts are more mechanically challenging over perceived rotation difficulty, such as positionals?
@@RoseEvaYukihana well, as a healer main, I wouldn't even know where to begin, but I do know that in WoW, the skill expression is in the various class rotations. This has the added benefit of making the classes feel very unique while having the downside of being notoriously difficult to balance. I'm not sure if Yoshi P is ready for that amount of backlash, the community already gets up in arms over the topic of positionals. And of course I don't want them to just copy WoW, I love them both because they're different.
I don't envy the dev's position at all, lol.
I think the game is pretty easy. I think the difficulty curve is pretty on point at the moment tbh.
Solution to healers feeling useless: make the healer dps more engaging instead of essentially 1 or 2 buttons. Give shared CD with healing skills so they have to gauge how much healing will be needed to maximize damage.
51:05 Divine Veil?
@@amedaius8492 My major complaint of healing is spamming 1 button for DPS and healing occasionally in most content. The only time this hadn't occurred was Ultimates and I was genuinely SWEATING healing UCOB for the first time 🤣
I genuinely do not understand the Viper complaints. The job literally guides you through how to play it, and once I learned that "red = rear, green = side," the whole concept of the job unlocked itself in my mind and it flowed so incredibly smoothly and naturally. Viper is near perfect as is.
The Expert dungeons are the most fun and active I've seen that category be in a long time. They're wonderful, and we need more content like them.
Tgis player base just needs to wake the fuck up.
Been Healing all expac, I've been seeing Picto's in particular peel mobs off the tank, very easily which explains the AoE enmity changes, as for the enmity changes to the gap closers, well it feels weird to gap close on GNB and not get any enmity from it, especially when the Picto in party can drop a 1000 pot attack at the start of an encounter and gain all the agg
MNK 2.0 was busyness, was over haul every expansion, less job to play. Now player base have grown and Viper now playing same tune
As popular of DRG 2.0.
Salute to YoshiP he has the hardest job.
@@brandohernandez9991 Trying to find a balance with an ever growing, louder audience must be really tough, especially trying to keep the dev teams core values as well and how they want to shape the game!
Got me scared there thought we SAM gotta get nerf and taking skill away again. Was only about a cooldown
@@brandohernandez9991 SAM is perfect and untouched obviously 😎
So for the tanks (as a tank main) DRK and GNB having there gap closers not deal damage is the issue as when they did and the other 2 have damage on them when the tank dashed in it would trigger the enemies to target the tank. But now those 2 it doesn't happen now targets are spread out more and don't group up like they use to, this in combination with DPS attacking right away like there used to doing is why tanks are having a hard time. WAR AND PLD don't have that issue as bad ( WAR not at all in my case idk about PLD haven't leveled it yet). Skill issue is not a thing if the balance on the dve side is out of line so the agrro buff to aoe is just going to make sure that it never happens without nerfing dps jobs. Range skills are an option if you have ogcd ready. I never pull with it cuz it put my gcd on cool down and AOE is much higher for generating it. I haven't had a lot agrro loss to be honest I adjusted for the gap closer very early. I went GNB this time instead of WAR. To be honest just agrro gen on the gap closers will be enough andbyes DPS please bring your ripped mobs to the tank most will meet you halfway and new tanks pay attention to the enemy list and meet the DPS halfway when they bring them to you or just grab them back if they run around like a chicken with there head cut off ( you know who you are lol funny as shit btw) let them die I got tired of running after them and I'm on PS5 so typing is not gonna happen in a fight. Also no I'm buying a keyboard for one game no matter how much I play, I have discord for static and friends and that's good enough. I know someone will mention it it always happens lol.
@@jesternonsense5516 Thanks for the insight! I havent experienced my first DT dungeon yet, but I've heard that the combat is very fun and refreshing! Such as potentially a change of its usual structure, which could also explain the aggro issue along with the dash changes. Not having damage attached to a dash loses its initial aggro generation (imo) and has caused this new issue. A combination of this change and people playing the exact same with large initial DPS potencies would cause issues with aggro. Having the new changes will hopefully mitigate it!
I feel like regarding Expert Dungeons, people are saying its hard because it's more punishing now.
You can and will probably get one-shotted if you mess up the first few times by being in the wrong place, but mechanically bosses are barely harder then previous expansion and you should be able to figure things out in 0 ~ 2 wipes, and I think that's pretty acceptable for difficulty.
On the job side, I think there's no pleasing the community because there's two very vocal camps for either side, the loud casual and the louder "tryhard" for lack of better words that want more challenge and complex jobs (I'd personally love more complexity, but I'd rather just have more job identity and a non 2 minute burst meta first)
There's just no winning however they approach it I think.
@@SoraInTheSkies Thank you for the comment! Yeah - there isnt really winning with whatever changes they decide to make or not to make. Its a precarious position to be in, especially at the start of the expansion release.
I do want more individuality and identity for jobs as well! Both Picto and Viper feel so much more Unique imo, I'd be worried any future changes would feel like they're losing their identity. Time will tell!
The aoe for the reawaken is probably what they are upping for ranged as for the potitionals thing yoshi is trying to make the jobs business easier and his go to for it is to remove positionals so there is less on your mind as for where its busy its durring the max level upkeep between bursts and somewhat durring its 2 min burst
imO. remove positionals alltogether, bosses jump around like dum and can't do positionals at all sometimes
The threat issue is an issue of Tanks not knowing how to tank imO.
only thing I expect for viper changes is the remove of positional from dual-blade skill.
most of the time I use true north anyways so might as well remove it...
The people complaining its too easy are not the same people complaining its now too hard.
Viper plays itself and has very few abilities. It is the easiest class to play. It just looks confusing because the way the tooltips look. The only difficulty is the positionals.
The dungeons are fun. Just the first boss of one of them that it's stupid in higher pings, but that's okay. 2 runs and I already can see improvement!
i would like to see viper loose their positionals tbh. all of the meles got them. why ? i understand it with monk, nin and so on where it fits the overall fantacy. i know tons of ppl staying away from mele jobs for that reason alone. they can even speed it up by another 5% and let ppl have 1 job that is super fast and spammy. some of us rly love that. not being able to take an asmongold bio break in between abilities.
yeah positionals doesn't make it more fun or hard,just annoying
you can't even tell if you hit or not most of the time since it doesn't affect the combo like it used to
People complain so hard...
Personally, I enjoyed the Duties and Trials. There's some new visual effects for specific encounters that translate into mechanics You Already Know but have been flavoured a bit to fit with the encounter. That should not be an issue by the time you get to level 90 now is it?
The actual trials were a little tricky but easy to figure out eventually and the EX versions to me feel like fun to learn. (have not actually started it)
Viper Positionals are NO MORE than the other melee. They're even easy to discern. Is the third-and-finishing attack of your combo hind? Then the icon is red. IS it flank? Then the icon is green. If it's too hard for you to remember whether your on hinds- or flanksbane poison, look at the colour of the icon.
Viper is also still slower than Monk. Even with your speed buff on. And monk also has a positonal at the end of the 123...
Also, Tanks can stand a little to do more work at gaining and keeping more aggro. I say this as a Monk main and Warrior secondly. A lot of Tanks just act like Blue DPS and often ignore getting aggro in an area for just unloading on that one target. And those of us who do AoEs will rip enemies off of them because, yeah, they're not keeping up enmity properly. I have not had a single problem with tanks from my FC who do make sure to get and keep attention...
i am waiting that they just make every class 2 skill combo classes with just 2 buttons. becuase slowly it feels like we getting there
Thank god this is the minority.
There are complaints. In the JP community. You haven't heard because yall aint elbow deep in them.
And some of the complaints are from people with health issues. Its making it accessible for us. Were not complaining about making savage mode easy (fr aint no way, im too tired for that) we just want jobs to be playable for us. I honestly think this is a fair compromise, but in the end, its truly up to the Company/Developers.
😩
@@twilightexposure8431 Thank you for this insight! I realised after this that the JP community have a far bigger sway in the discussion & changes in FFXIV.
As someone who does suffer with RSI and pain with my hands, I havent found Viper to be too overwhelming or painful to play during levelling, but this could change dramatically at lvl 100 with high end content 😖
They really need to stop dumbing the game down for a small minority of whiny lazy players.
@@d0tsf0rlife Well initial complaints were that the game is too easy, and they want to correct that in combat going forward. Perhaps this means more mechanically? Whilst they can change the jobs to "fit" players. Thus increasing the difficulty by some degree?
A lot of Jobs seem to have button bloat imo so they need to lighten it up.
VTuber 😢
Talking about FFXIV, unless they're going to fix the horrible, dated, UI and the fact that most classes have 3 rows of 12 buttons (or more)... Hard pass.
Unless heavily invested in this game, or for some reason huge JRPG fan, while I don't play WoW and haven't for a while... they've at least evolved that game and the UI over the years to be more modern. Feels like FF has remained the same for what 11, 12+ years now? If it wasn't the FF IP, I don't think anyone could stand it.
@@pxprimary3790 The game has changed quite significantly in those years whilst keeping core values the same!
Especially that of changing the functionality of the jobs, player based mechanics, etc!
Many players I know arent interested in the other mainline FF games, and just enjoy XIV for its story/raiding/MMO experience! Hope that helped!
Nah it’s going in the right direction players are just stupid 99% of the time and think they know best
The players know what they want. The current game is the result of listening to the loudest but smallest group.
But they probably see that the numbers are off so they fix it.
All this complaining about positionals. Honestly I'd be ok with them removing all positionals if they could make jobs more engaging.
Positionals are the most engaging dps mechanic. Probably the only reason I dont drop this game rn. It's about the only real skill expression
@@xL0stKIlah oh yea I like them as well, really makes melee more engaging than ranged.
GUilD WaRs 2 iz baest gaemu, FINEL FANTUSSY smeell like cabbage
Guilds wars isn't on console though
@@xL0stKIlah Gwold Wohorz runs on the OUYA
I don't think the Viper changes are in the wrong direction. Positionals are a trite and ancient mechanic that sure, in the past made sense as bosses didn't do much. However as the game as evolved and become quicker and more movement has become common place positionals are just a hindrance when relied upon to heavily.
I think the only thing positionals do is separate the lower skill players from higher skill players. Content is still easily clearable standing in one spot. Plus true north helps mitigate a lot of the pain. I can understand the sentiment that they are annoying, and I do feel the pain when I can't hit them for whatever reason; but I also feel really good if I'm hitting all of them and getting better dps.
I do think they're jumping the gun a little bit on simplifying it, though. I'm not against it indefinitely but based off 1 week of feedback? I don't know..
@@adambaker4590 lol aint no way positionals separate low skill from high skill, it only becomes "This is really annoying to do" for a vast majority of players.
If you are looking for skill expression they need to start shifting away from the homogenization of classes so that each class has a kit unique to themselves and offer some tangible utility in content. This utility can be executed through a complete understanding of the job and executing the right sequences to achieve it, to then sustain that execution throughout the entirety of a fight will definitely separate skill levels more than "Move left, oh move right now"
The way they designed viper was probably a shift toward that direction since it seems to be less focused on that and more attack at all times and the overall change i think to dragoon where you only need to hit one positional to basically do the rest of your combo is also a reflection of that
You can even see this breaking away from positionals over time from the amount of bosses that have hit boxes spanning half the arena requiring no positional.
This might also free up what a tank can do during a fight to make a boss more dynamic and a tank having to wrangle a boss in a certain way without screwing over anyone who has to do a positional.
@xenozero2512 Yeah, I don't know if you know this but the vast majority of tanks HATE "wall bosses" or bosses so large that moving them is pointless; or bosses that constantly reposition themselves back to the middle. That wasn't always the case, it's gotten worse over the years as the hit boxes got bigger and bigger, or bosses just straight up were in a fixed position and all positionals worked from all positions.
Free up what a tank has to do? I'm a tank main... THERES PRACTICALLY NOTHING FOR ME TO DO. Reprise a raid wide every so often, MAYBE do a tank/voke swap, MAYBE hit an invulnerable to cheese ONE mechanic, at most two? Nah, F that.
Also, I did point out how annoying positionals were but if you fail to see how they separate skill then I don't know what to tell you... Also, you brought up skill combos as an example to skill expression. We already have that. You can just spam 1111111 on Dragoon. Or you can do your actual rotation. And then to separate people even FURTHER, you can do your actual combinations while ALSO doing the positional dance around the boss.
You're asking for them to dumb down the game EVEN FURTHER than it already is... I guarantee you that you're in the minority opinion on that. We just had a f**kin' "healer strike" because the game is so damn easy half the time YOU DON'T EVEN NEED A HEALER...
I mean, fuck, there is a reason Yoshi P had come out in recent months talking about difficulty in games and how they think they went too far with simplifying things... the game is a cake walk as it is.
@@adambaker4590 Lol i am asking them to dumb it down when I am saying let 123 = 1 type of utility and 213 = a different utility and 312 = another utility, and then balancing those utilites appropriately throughout a fight as each of them play a role to clear the fight more effectively.
You also assumed quite a bit by me saying the massive hitboxes shows a break from this design, it did not mean it was a good choice, its a bandaid to the positional problem and a showcase again of a breakaway from that design choice or the attempt to do so.
also "Free up what a tank has to do? I'm a tank main... THERES PRACTICALLY NOTHING FOR ME TO DO" you completely read it wrong chill i also tank. The fact that there is nothing to do is the problem, if getting rid of positionals means a tank does not have to keep a boss in one spot the whole time which means the boss is doing more to keep the tank engaged with the fight. I.E moving around, doing cleaves/tankbusters like ex1 where the tank provides some protection hell even doing more with adds during boss fights could be something again. The fact that a lot of people enjoy the design of the tankbuster in ex1 says a lot about the potential of boss fights left on the table if they changed the design more.
Currently if a boss is doing fuck all and moving all over the arena its screws more than one persons rotation cause they either need to run/dash to it (hoping its not facing towards them or out of reach from behind/flank). I get particularly annoyed when I am standing in the middle of the arena wanting the boss to move to me because i know the longer its staying halfway into the wall the longer people can't execute anything meaningful. Sure true north but it would be better if the skill wasn't needed at all.
As for the healer strike? idk I wouldn't want a solo heal or no heal for either ex1 or 2.
One more note, the game being a cakewalk is the problem of design choice and not the issue of removing positionals, the game can be made more difficult without soley relying on positional skills. I played ARR dragoon and I don't want to go back to the annoyance of dancing back and forth for combos while managing my tp and making sure I have enough accuracy.
The whole discourse makes me wonder if we had the tools we had back in heavensward into the present and gordias came out in its same state that busted raids if people would say nothing needs to change as opposed to back then. I don't think yoshi p wants to bring back the gordias days at the very least lol
lol. ex dungeons aint hard at all
They are way harder then before and now have more than one mechanic each.
@@rosalina2938 they are not harder at all
@@ExiledDiclonius no need for measuring. They are objectively harder. Not savage hard, but harder than pre addon..
@@rosalina2938 ok, even if they would be harder then wow, they crancked up difficulty from 0 to 0.1
I see the raiding hardcore no lifers complain for years."everything is to easy" Unfortunately they listen to those "People".
It is getting harder and harder to find a party in PF for extreme.
If you don't have a static you are already excluded from so much stuff.
Making the classes easier is the best thing they can do to give us casual players a little bit of a chance to not be excluded by the super toxic raiding community.
An MMO needs to have some content for everyone, not just a small number of people.
All I want is more action combos.....
Not every class though. That's the real problem. You have the option to change jobs without creating a new character, so not every job has to play like the current SMN. The people complaining about difficulty weren't only raiders and most of them are actually not toxic either. Some can be toxic every now and then and some make it their personality to be toxic and almost everyone hates them. Also there is a lot of toxicity that comes from casuals too.
My experience in PF, a lot of times, consists of people who already cleared, joining PFs of people who haven't to help. The vast majority of times when my friends and I used PF there was always 1 or 2 who cleared trying to help. There's the occasional bad experience, but the vast majority are positive or neutral, we just tend to remember the negatives more.
IMO, extremes are never hard, but they lean towards the harder side and are fine as they are. The problem is that there is no content between max level dungeons and extremes.
@@riel0563 everything is on the hard side now. Savage extreme ultima dream trails.
Everything is for the hardcore player. Even VC dungeons had these hardcore difficulties. The game is perfect for people who have no job or family and just play 24/7.
Yea maybe the new extremes are fine. I can learn them. But soon there will be the raids, 24 man dungeon, weekly stone farming, and the tribes, on top of new raids, savages dream trail and whatever is new. Try to fit that in 2 hours, 4 times a week. All the learning and practice on top of course...
Don't even have to watch the video to know it's a bad take from someone who doesn't play VPR. No, Noxious Gnash debuff is not ok like it is and should be 30/60 seconds. No we don't need positionals on the coil moves. Yes we have more than two positional skills.
If I read one more time that the changes are bad, because "it's only 2 positionals and VPR is easy" or other such nonsense, when we don't even have details on the changes I'm just going to loose it.
@@DieKao Thats a shame! Its a discussion about the changes, and you can't state its a bad take without watching the video - thank you for the comment and engagement though! 🩷
I do wanna say I think people need to calm the hell down and wait for the actual changes to drop before getting mad. Simultaneously, I also agree 99% of the playerbase should have shut the fuck up in stormblood and just let the devs cook. People pretend like it was a minority complaining that got us to where we are, but it wasn't a minority. A large amount of people despised the Jank, they hated the way the game played, they wanted it to be fast, they want it to be simple. Every fucking dungeon is a goddamn hallway because of the playerbase. The reason Main Story Dungeons has unskippable cutscenes is because when SE gives this playerbase freedom, they start treating each other like shit. Also, just to comment on the viper thing, Viper has 6 positionals technically 4, it is not 2 positionals. It's 4 due to how they are chained. No offense, but 99% of this playerbase can not read, people think Dragoon unironically has 1 positional *spoilers* it has 2 and has always had 2 you just dont have to chain them anymore. Samurai players dont even know they have positionals. Viper having 4 is the largest amount of positionals in the game on a class, while also being a class that expects you to hit buttons as fast as max greased monk. Which was the whole damn reason Monk lost its positionals in the first place.
alexandria boss 1 is BS.. that is savage difficulty for a daily reward .I'll do hunts no more dungeons...
I disagree. First boss in Alexandria has nothing in the fight close to being relativity compared to "Savage" level difficulty. Just follow the line pattern and dodge accordingly.
EW truly babied a lot of you
i disagree, cross you move out, circle you move in, its pretty easy
I mean, if the only savage you did was some A(whatever)S unsynced, then yeah, it is savage difficulty
Just wait for the next addon where everything needs a static and 3 weeks training. Casuals can just to f themselves.