Is the Entwistle 1959 "Burst"...Fraudulent? (Part 2)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Some of the most desirable guitars on the planet, the Gibson Les Paul "Burst" is bound to have copies and fakes, and from time to time they're good enough to fool just about anyone... well today we have a unique case that revolves around that very subject!
emeraldcitygui...
Someone "won't get fooled again".
LOL🤣😂
Because John owned it, it’ll probably sell for more than a real burst.
Ha!
👏👏👏
Very good Sir. Very good🤵🏼♂️
It's crazy how long this guitar went without being identified as not Gibson. Especially considering how many people have looked at it.
You have to remember that the 'vintage' market as we know it has only really been a 'thing' for 25/30 years, and we're still finding things out - Gibson's variability of handmade quality from the period is also still an issue - they were not built with the idea that one day they would be worth squillions! I've been a session player and luthier for 45 years +, and am still finding things out. I part-traded a nice, rare (now) 63 telecaster in Sherwood green for a 58 tobacco burst LP in 1978 which didn't cost me all that much at all...because then, it was just 'old', not 'vintage'. With my luthier hat on, I've had to disappoint quite a few successful musician friends over the years, particularly with Fenders and Gibsons as some fakes are just so good to the point given who owns them, no one really questions their veracity.
@@vsmicer I agree, but some of these findings are so obvious. 1960s slim neck, ok. Paint, really not ok. Weight, could be, but unlikely. Cavities, no way.
So i do think that this is one of the insider secrets that no one wanted to become common knowledge until Entwhistle was dead and gone.
People were just being nice to Entwistle, regarded as one of the top rock bass players in history so people did not want to put a thorn in his ass.
I’m not a vintage guitar guy but I love that you took the time to show all the red flags on this guitar. Very educational
If you like these kinds of breakdowns of Gibson guitars I highly recommend Troglys TH-cam channel, he doesn't deal in actual 59s (yet) but he's quickly becoming an authority on everything else Gibson.
@@blodpudding yeah I'm subbed to him already. Was just nice to see a shop do it for a change. Ya just dont see much of this often
that guy was very chill for losing alot of money. lots of this stuff happens, especially with Vintage cars....more 435hp 427 Corvettes have been sold at Mecum than were ever built, for example
I am by no means a expert But the output Jack plate is mounted on top of the binding? GIBSON never did that back then.. I cannot ever seeing another 59 where the plate was actually on top of the edge binding? And what is really telling and really gives it away Is in the control cavity there's no "chew" in the route edge where it should be due to Gibson's router.
Crazy situation, would be interested to see what it goes for
Not much its not even a famous guitar players its just a fake guitar fornerly owned by a famous guy who doesnt play guitar. Id rather have a real gibson
It has the hallmarks of an early Guitar Clinic burst copy.
I live in Toronto, and I am surprised that it wasn't flagged as a fake. Obviously this instrument has fooled a lot of people along the way, but a true expert was able to easily identify the many things that didn't add up to being an original burst. I would have thought that if it went through the hands of a top notch Toronto music store that dealt in vintage guitars, that this would have been immediately identified as a fraud.
The fact that it HAS a headstock would ring alarm bells to me!! Seriously though, I just don't care, I think it's more interesting BECAUSE of what it is. And, well, the sound and feel. it's all there is in the end. But it's certainly a very historical piece in contemporary music lore. I think it's IRREPLACEABLE. But then I play DOUBLE BASS, so an old instrument to me is from 1730. Also, thank you for honouring the ox as you did. He is a legend, and so much more than The Who's "bass guitarist". The latter of that (guitarist) he was always keen to point out. Thank you.
How would you even value this? And then have to resell it as a fake Gibson. Crazy.
I haven’t been able to find out what year Entwistle acquired this guitar, but if it was before the 90s, this authenticity issue wouldn’t have been such a big deal. Vintage Les Pauls were just old guitars back at a point in time, not investment pieces. People used to think nothing about doing mods to old guitars back then, pickup swaps, covering burst finishes in spray-can metallic paint jobs, and so on. When John bought this it would not have cost him half a million dollars, so “authenticity” wouldn’t have mattered to him so much as just whether it was a good player or not.
Thanks for the rundown fellas, good that you're on the case with these guitars.......10.5lbs......that is a boat anchor and a very tight pinstripe and bright in the neck pup. Wonder who made it ?? Christian is a cool guy. Cheers Emerald City.
Weighs the same as my 2008 LP custom. I have had some 70s and 80s ones that were a lot heavier too.
As a fan of The Who and Entwistle, I kinda think this makes the guitar even cooler. Now does that coolness factor equate to current day burst money..... no. But still, very cool! ❤
Why because its owned by a guy who plays bass not guitar? It lost all value which is sad. It was in the books because of it being a 59. They scammed this guy. They all knew
95% of the value of a Gibson Les Paul 59 burst is 100% based on the belief that a given example is genuine.
If this guitar and it's rich history are worth a boat-load of money to someone,..then the guitar is worth a boat-load of money.
It is all eye of the beholder, money.
I'm no expert by any stretch, and I could tell how fake it was very, very easily.
There is no way the previous seller was unaware.
Shady stuff went on.
They are Very lucky i wasnt the guy they tried to fool.
This was incredibly interesting and thank you for sharing this. That Entwistle died broke, high on cocaine, and with a call girl/roadie makes this make a little more sense.
Finally one of the three times as many 59 burst that were ever made is disqualified 😆. Seriously great job ECG!
I don't know about early models control cavities but I I've seen enough older models that had a metal plate and a cover held down by screws encompassing the actual controls in a shielding box.
in the mid '70s i borrowed a black les paul copy for awhile that had a blank headstock, no manufacturer or anything else. always wondered what its origin was
great playing by Skylar, best part of the video.
The results of the autopsy in no way devalue a one of a kind guitar with that history & provenance.
You guys are the best. JB might want it for work it is a great wrench it has the sound, but the wood is not real, not a huge deal.
Interesting quote from John Entwhistle; “... one of the finest examples I’ve ever heard and played...”.
“Authentic” or not that says a lot.
what did it sell for?
Really interesting and informative video, some great spots there, only thing I would question as a flag is the pick guard screw, if you look at a lot of 59s a number do have that screw in that position I'd say?
A lot of LP's weigh over 10 lb. I've seen them over 11, almost 12. Necks can be changed and/or altered per artist. Serial numbers can mean almost nothing with older Gibsons. I've seen legit antiques not match Gibson's records & I've seen copies match perfect.Pickup cavities could have been routed out for different pickups at some point. Ive found often there's not that many similarities from instrument to instrument, given everything that a given artist might want.. Can almost be a crapshoot sometimes.
there's still a market out there for conversion bursts/replica's. It's got original plastic and PAFs and if what I understand is correct, he didn't shell out THAT much dough for it. He'll be OK.
Its not even a conversion though. Its an outright fake made in a time when fakes were not very close. Probably made in the 70s. The hardware is the only real value. Maybe it will have value as it belonged to Entwhistle but i wouldnt pay more than a few grand for it and obviously what the hardwares worth.
Slash’s Les Paul was a copy too, what do you think that’s worth. These guys give themselves a little too much credit! Sorry, this belonged to the Ox!
That makes it priceless
Is the hard case original?
Did it sell?
Why didn’t you put up a link to the part one?
So is it one of max’s?
Max would not have made so many mistakes.
Remember folks, if it’s too good to be true, it is. ~$50k for a burst hasn’t been a thing since the 90’s.
😅he paid $50,000 for the fake !?
Would it not be nice to have stupid money !?
@@auntjenifer7774 $50k plus a Goldtop. (Who knows what Goldtop tho).
Someone would probably pay $50k for the original P.A.Fs and bridge.
@@SiloSoundStudios Those were $500 only a decade or two ago 😕
@@Heatfarmer I dont know about that, I remember people paying several thousand for them back in the late 80s/early 90s
Even seeing the light reflect off the top, that recurve is just not right...
Considering he's a bass player....🤔....I'm not sure if it matters or not to the now deceased John Entwhistle.
Is it "fraudulent"? Not unless the person who built it did so to defraud somebody. Maybe a friend of Entwistle smashed it up when he was off his head and John had it repaired as well as a 1960's English guitar tech could manage? Were they really worth faking back in those days? After all, how many genuine ES-345, ES-355, SG Specials and Fenders did Pete Townshend smash to bits?
Can you tell who made it ?
How did Gibson's crew not catch that? Probably made in Japan
So the question is, who did the counterfeit, and how much did John Entwhistle pay for it? Was he duped? What year did he buy? What classifies something as “vintage”. It’s not a vintage Gibson but could it be still classified as “vintage counterfeit” lol
Where's part one?
Wow, such sloppy work. And so easily spotted when examined a little closely. They couldn’t even cut out the control cavity to the correct shape? Definitely a cautionary tale for buyers out there
But what if this was a guitar made and put together by one of the Gibson employees
I thought I had the best Marshall collection in Portland. But if those cabs are legit, this dude might have me beat!
There's also the fact that back in those years, guitar players were shaving necks down to almost nothing. I've seen that in person before, a heart breaking thing to see. UV light photography would have shown that.
Jimmy Page for one.
That guy at the end is playing, "The Ten and a Half Pound Fake Burst Blues!!!" Nice-sounding guitar by the way....
cool vid, that fat inlay on fret 12 is actually correct, but you nailed everything else
I don't know. Who's to say. When serial numbers don't match, colors don't match. Tail pieces are changed, pick up cavities are routed out and/or painted. Can't be tough
It’s refreshing to see people being transparent and honest!! Awesome video guys!!
Dude took that super well, especially when you consider he traded in an authentic vintage gold top toward the fake.
So he traded a real Gold Top for $50,000 for Johns real fake burst.
I think he makes enough at auction to buy a real 59 when it’s all said and done.
Because John owned it and it made a book.
@@foofghtr Maybe. It depends on the value of people in that market feel there is to Entwistle owning it. I'm not convinced that the vintage guitar buying market is going to put a super high value on a fake guitar owned by Entwistle that was erroneously put in a book. Hopefully for him they do though.
That shop knowingly ripped him off. Id have a long talk with them👊
what qualifies as a big loss depends a lot on how much you have. i have a feeling he won't miss this loss if there is one. i like his philosophy of let nature run its course.
Why would anybody care what guitar John Entwistle played? He was a bass player.
I don't reckon people really missed anything. I think this was a case of passing the hot potato, hoping to make full on celebrity 'burst money somewhere before it was officially outed. ECG can't risk their rep with that though.
Has anyone thought of the possibility of this guitar being made by Guitar Trader from Red Bank New Jersey??? Their guitars were heavier and had real leftover parts from Kalamazoo…… just a thought
Those Guitar Trader guitars are apparently spot on, like 100% perfect replicas, better than anything Gibson does. They almost never come up for sale bc they sound and play so well. I've read a few articles about them, very interesting story.
@@williamlangeii4012I have played 4 of them and should have bought them all in the 90s. They never show up for sale. They were all leftover parts when they shut down Parson St in Kalamazoo before going to Nashville. They were the real first replica/ bursts closer than anyone has ever made.
@@williamlangeii4012 th-cam.com/video/jUYktzm6VF4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2j-lsXblsZu78-uz
I hadn't even thought of that. Let me explain some of the differences I've seen over the years
@@bradleyshuppert3393how are they identified? Can they be? Well, how did you tell the four?
I’m no Burst expert, but that finish, that anemic belly carve and those wonky pickup routes are serious red flags. How did this go so long without being identified as fake?
I believe this one would have fallen under the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mantra of the average luthier.
Also, a 59 with zero evidence of a neck break, or even headstock damage, just doesn't seem right. The body has way too many nicks and buckle rashes to not have been a gigging guitar.
because dealers did this for years. Once published, that was it. Just like real ones get called fake on certain forums and tarnished. Once people BELEIVE something one way or other, facts be damned. And dealers knowlingly just sell the sizzle.
He should have shown it to Pete Townshend before, get his blessing of 'crown jewel'.
The value in these guitars is 100% in "believing" it is a genuine 1959 Gibson Les Paul.
People could have went the rest of their lives happily believing.
First off, you guys have the coolest job in the world. For me, the only thing better whole be being one of those few "always in demand" sessions players, which i honestly would prefer to being a rock star.
As far as vintage Gibsons go, the 50's Bursts get all the love (and money). Repairing guitars for twenty years, and playing them (pretty piss poorly) for over thirty has afforded me several opportunities to play vintage and Uber high-end guitars over the years. The accumulated experience garnered from all the different examples of models, years, conditions, changes modifications etc (and admittedly, some degree of person biase) has resulted with me being of the opinion that a big reason the LPs are the most coveted is linked heavily with the pedigree prestige, as opposed to it being because they're better guitars, and certainly not because they're the better sounding.
For my money, if I were presented with the opportunity to own any single vintage guitar (that has the clause that I cannot ever sell it, because if I could than of course I'll go with the one I can get the most money for), I would choose an ES 335 everytime. Id prefer something like a 61-64 Dot, I like the smaller horns over the mickey mouse ears of the 1958/59. And seeing as this hypothetical patron is so generous, I'd ask that with some of the money saved from not buying that $350,000 LP, I'd get a good set of 57 PAFs. Speaking of that: when it comes to Gibsons and PAFs, again the Bursts get all the love. Undeservedly IMO.
Don't get me wrong: a really nice, light and lively Les Paul with PAFs is a beautiful thing. However, If you ever get the opportunity to try a vintage 335 with PAFs, you'll understand why they were referred to as the Burst killer. The naturally dominant mid-range tone that semihollows produce, matched with the slightly scooped sound of the lighter wound early PAFs, and the added clarity that comes along with them is🤔…f'cking guitar tone apotheosis!
Besides that, when it comes to being able to produce a modern guitar with the tone and feel of vintage ones: using period correct materials like old growth Honduran mahogany, Brazilian rosewood, the old school hide glue and nitro finishes before they started adding inhibitors and plasticizers and things like that, 335s are hardest to pull off. With Fenders and Les Pauls, I've seen them succeeded in getting the same tone that the actual vintage ones. I've yet to hear a 335 though. And when it comes to modern production and custom shop guitars the gap between convincing vintage like tone is even wider. A modern Les Paul standard sounds far closer to a vintage one than a modern ES335.
Ironically, while they're beautiful and insanely well designed and built, I've never been a huge PRS fan. They use higher quality materials, in most ways they're better designed, and DEFINITELY have a better and more consistent quality control, but they just don't do it for me.
That said, I'm seriously considering selling a few guitars, including a 335, and buying a PRS McCarty 594 Hollowbody II. And the reason is that I find them to sound closer to a vintage ES335 than my actual ES335.
Side note: I just finished rereading my comment for spelling and grammar errors and discover just how long and rambling this is. But what am I going to do now: not post it? Just know you're fortunate, if I go on this long when I'm typing on phone screen, imagine what it's like when I'm actually talking.
PS: i prefer gold tops
Did they make dotnecks in 52 3 and 4 ?
That top profile sure looks a lot like my 74 Les Paul standard. Very shallow and also a 10+ pounder. The neck heal also looks exactly like mine as does the slim taper neck. I inherited the guitar from my uncle who bought it brand-new at Rhythm City music in Atlanta Georgia in 1974 for $439.00 the store special ordered the guitar with humbuckers from Gibson. Before I inherited the guitar I already owned a 2012 59 R9 reissue and to my astonishment the 74 kills it in every way possible except for the weight.
I expect given its history and the great 50’s parts it would still be worth quite a lot of money.
As parts, definitely - but you can no longer sell it as a Gibson.
Holy moly, awesome episode. I'm a Who fanatic and enjoyed every second of your investigation!
It's still John Entwistle's guitar
And that is where the value lies... I would love to have it for that reason.
Plus the parts, interesting instrument
I’m thinking about buying James Hetfeilds drum kit.
@@carlmcgregor2707 A Kriss Derig (The Guy who made Slash's first Les Paul) 59 Replica sells for more than a Gibson 59 Replica! They're all fakes!
Crazy... Thought it was a replica in the previous video & was surprised that it was supposed to be an original burst. Pretty shocking that nobody has outed this guitar before now. Great video & thank you for sharing.
I bet everyone who was in possession of this guitar in the past knew what it was and was not.
same here... having handled a considerable amount of top-notch replicas (which i wouldn't even call this one!) and a handful of originals, this immediately stuck out to me as a replica. for starters, you just did NOT see such "bbq" tops on any vintage ones... beyond that, the binding and other details, not to mention the lustre (which is among the hardest things to replicate... if not impossible) didn't match that of original ones. really, see enough of both (real and fake) and you'll be able to discern with fairly high certainty in time.
It's like the art market, it's got loads of fakes in it... It's not in the owners interests to investigate too much. I bet a significant percentage of vintage guitars are fakes to one degree or another.
I think they stumbled on another Chris Derig Les paul.
You may be correct because of the top maple used on the guitar. Derrig i believe used western maple not eastern?
it has real uniform thin stripes.
Unlucky... nice guitar, but no pension money out of this one. I'd rather keep it.
You danced around calling it a fake ! 😜
Where is "Part 1"? Did TH-cam take it down or did it have a different title than this one?
Looking at a Burst Believer book and not all the pick guard screws line up with the 22nd fret perfectly just sayin'
Looks like a BobBurst. Especially since it was purchased in Toronto.
Yeah and the finish is a big giveaway, plus the routes and the other things the guy picked out.
What would be cool if the person who built it came forward. It's a lot harder to make something look that old than make it look new.
The dealer who sold him the guitar knew it was dodgy, hence the song-and-dance about the replaced parts being the reason for the reduced price.
Yup exactly. I think everyone but this guy knew. Even John Ent just kept it in a case. If it was a 59 Pete Eric and the guys would use it.
It's a substitute for another guitar.
Who doesn't own an "original '59 burst"? There are too many for them to be all real...
So given that it's a counterfeit, what's the law on selling it in the States? In the UK it would be illegal to sell as long as it says "Gibson" on the headstock, regardless of its provenance with John Entwistle.
Here's a new YT video from Gibson about Paul Stanley's collection. At th-cam.com/video/nRc9sRGT0k4/w-d-xo.html in the video he produces an early custom shop attempt that's so "off" it's unreal, and without this provenance if someone ELSE went to sell Stanley's LP would we be having the same conversation as on this Emerald City? I think yes.
I watched that video, I agree 100% If Gibson can make guitars this poorly then there's no reason that this Entwistle LP can't be a real Gibson. Why not send it back to Gibson and ask them to authenticate?
I’m not surprised he said it was the finest guitar he ever played and it is not a real Gibson.
You know it! 😂 The guy who who made Slash's Appetite For Destruction Les Paul Kris Derrig, his fake Les Pauls go for more that an 80's Gibson 1959 Replicas!
I played a 60 burst once. Bucket list moment. In my opinion its actual value as a guitar was easily $5000, but no more. But it was fun playing a guitar worth two of my houses.
Bound to make a few mistakes shopping on coke
Did you ever consider it is a Kris Derrig Les Paul?
I have a Gibson 1959 M2M Burst that is supposed to be an exact replica down the last detail of a 1959 Burst. I would be interested in you taking a look at to see just how close it really is.
Maybe its one of Pete Townsends broken up stage guitars that his tech pieced back together and Pete gifted it to John Entwistle
this sounds possible.
Pete's were all "Norlin" Les Pauls, which are WAY different in construction than the originals. Although the weight would be about right for a Norlin.
So, all the parts of the guitar that actually make the sound, are original 59 Gibson though. 🤷🏼
This just paves the way for an idea for guitar buyers to start a collection of fake guitars, even more if owned by famous musicians or people.
The slash "appetite for destruction" Gibson guitar was also fake.
If a fake has actual 1957 to mid 1961 gibson PAf humbuckers the pickups can be removed and sold for far more than the guitar is worth . They have gone for as much as 10 000 dollars a set .
Top quality upload,content, presentation editing and honesty . A certain Exeter luthier did a reasonable job on this one ! Would be nice to find out where the remains of the original are now after it got wrecked.. Hard to believe that anyone with half a brain could accept this was right .
Wish as you are pointing things out you had a side by side comparison photo...
I find it hard to imagine that someone would go to all the trouble of getting all correct parts and be so stupid as to not route the body correctly., AND, that no one noticed it before this.
That top just looks weird. Not sure I’ve ever seen a burst with such narrow flame.
I have the book "Beauty of the burst and they call that "pinstripe flame" because it is so thin and symmetric, i have never been a fan of that kind of top.
The Maple has no flecks or markings and to me is very boring and looks anemic. My 2016 Historic R9's top destroys that top!
I would have known this was fake within seconds when I was 15 years old. how were people fooled?
lmao that logo looks fake as fuck but honestly more interesting than a real burst sadly
Damn Ed Roman lol
Oh, he did much better fakes.
This guitar has such a cool story, and it sounds amazing!
I’m no burst expert, but I’ve owned over 50 LPs. Even I could see a few of those issues. Shocked that it made through a few shops without detection.
That headstock logo was ridiculous.
They probably knew and didn't want to lose money and tried to make some too.
Business.
Chibson Entwistle... lol
It looks like a fake. The binding.. I knew immediately on first sight
Sounds like a burst! A good one too😊
It's all in the pickups. Put them in a '90s LP Studio it'll sound exactly like a burst.
Its a nice Les Paul just not a Gibson 😅
Wow, the soldering job is brutal, only a rookie would solder like that. Definitely not a Gibson job!
Only 1,250 made and 1,700 still out there somewhere. ; ^ )
Entwistle was a great musician but he wasn't exactly savvy when it came to money... he was a compulsive buyer of many things, including guitars, so I'm not surprised he got taken advantage of
That shop ripped you off big time. No way they didnt notice these issues. They need a phone call and some handcuffs
Interesting, there's a recent That Pedal Show interview with Noel Gallagher who has a burst gifted him by Johnny Marr who got it from Pete Townshend, and sure enough it's a Partsopaul with a replaced skinny neck. Might have been something they just did to keep their tour inventory running after Pete smashed them and less to do with getting some of that sweet blues lawyer money that came along later.
Glad we got to hear it! Thanks ECG. This is the good stuff we expect on the page! Love it. How would you guys compare the sound and playability of it to some real bursts? Does it stand up or is it just a good fake that isn't that quintessential Burst we love?
Clinic Burst.
Slash’s guitar when he was coming up wasn’t a gibson either….
Maybe customs are better than gibsons…. I don’t know.
Dna the maple.
I’m baffled that it fooled anyone with that bridge pickup ring. it’s way too short.
Could it be a factory 2nd or a test buid for a new Luthier who took it home and built his own after seeing Keef on the telly? ...or an early set neck Japanese Les paul(Heavy) with 50s pRts?
Japanese would have been poly finished for sure.
Still can be a real 59 but made by an intern/ temp who did not know the way around the gibson factory...Picked the wrong wood, did the cavity routing wrong...and so on...LOL