In this video we continue working on the steering of the front suspension. However in this one we pretty much finish the steering so we can move on to the lower control arm and shock mounting locations.
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to make these videos. As a newbie just getting interested your videos are clear and easy to follow and packed with a ton of information! Thanks!
Super Awesome job as always!!! You have that steering geometry dialed in now! Anyone considering a project like this needs to watch all of your videos, you can save someone a whole lot of time and aggravation! Thanks again for all the effort you put into making these videos, have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Great job! I know how frustrating it can be to fall back a couple steps, but in the end it will be worth it! I still have those stock Tacoma rims if your ever crusin by socal.
I really appriciate you sharing all this info its rally helping me plan my own build for after I move to Arizona in a month its looking good and thats alot of travel you're gonna have on that
Awesome video🤙 All i need to say is lifted 2000 f150 4x4 😆 that’s why im here 👍 horrible steering bump🤦🏽 im in the process of designing a new setup for steering and control arms. I dont understand why they make upper control arms so short 🤷🏽 im hoping to get a rack and pinion conversion to eliminate the pitman and idler arms. I do realize having my torsions cranked is where my problems start. I dont want to do solid axles and i have a plan for a different diff to allow for long travel with 4wd 🤘
Awesome man, this turned out really good with just those little changes. Also your camber gain looks like it's in the ballpark, I'd give it more but that is totally personal preference. You may want to space your steering arm plates apart a bit to have less chance of contacting the tierod even tho I know you will run bumpstops and limiting straps
Holy crap! Some spacers in the steering arm is a great idea. Thanks for sharing that. Camber gain kills me at the top because it causes the tire to crash into the fenders. My wheelbase isn't really that wide. But I totally agree with you, if I had the clearance I'd put more in there.
I'm going to try this eventually. I have 2 of the predator 212cc engines I bought when I tried to build a mini bike. It works but it's a little sketchy. I'm going to try this next. See if I can't build a river crawler
Hi Doug, Enjoying your build. I did see something you might want to watch for in the future. Your steering arm sections above and below the Heim joint have a square notch where the arm transitions to an outside radius hear the end. A generous radius would have been better as corners or notches raise local stresses by a factor of two or more. Repetitive stress cracks are much more likely to start from corners or notches. Even surface finish can be a factor in fatigue cracks. I kind of doubt you will see a problem though with the thickness of material you are using. Interestingly, a few liberty ships split in two during service from cracks that started at the square corners of their deck hatch openings during WWII.
Yeah! I’m first!! 😂😎 I like the more trial/error approach you use. Tak welding and cycling the suspension. Easy to adjust the pivot points etc. Designing bump steer, etc out of a long travel suspension is tough. Limiting the travel to 22” when you have 24 actual is smart. There is probably some give in limit straps and bump stops that you’ll only find when you’re out playing with it. Better to limit it than to bottom out the heims and break it
That's what I meant a few weeks back, when I gave you the ackermann link. This looks a lot better. Build steering from scratch is not easy. Next: camber, castor and self-centering. 😋
Hello Doug if you take that two hole center mount for tie ends ad another end for other side tie end that would change Ackerman if you look at stock vw use that geometry
Not sure right or wrong but we used a magnetic laser dot on the arm spindle to check for bump steer and try to get the least amount by adjusting mounting locations.
That has come along really good mate, your quality of work and problem solving are extremely impressive. I can't remember if I have asked this before but do you do fabrication or machining for your day job or just a bloody talented hobbyist (don't answer if it's prying too much, I understand privacy is very important) Cheers brother I hope you and Mrs Doug have a wonderful Christmas and a very happy New year.
Hey Craig, I worked in a welding shop for about 10 years out of high school. It wasn't car stuff it was more structural steel. But I learned a lot about welding and fabrication. Then I have been really into RC cars (racing) most of my life. This is where I learned all my suspension and chassis type knowledge. What I do in these videos is now my hobby and it's a merge of the two. Merry Christmas to you as well!!
@@DougBugBuilder awesome mate, I thought you must have done some form of fab welding with the way you go about it. Well from one former fab welder to another your work is 'Spoty dog' (Australian slang for 'Spot On')
This is pretty inspirational! I’m a few months away from cutting the front end off my bug to make it an a arm car. I bought spindles from pacific, so that makes me nervous that I can’t manipulate the tie rod attachment point. My question is, are you able to modify the Ackerman effect by spreading the tie rod attachment points (making rods shorter) on the steering rack?
Technically you could, but that would have bad consequences on your bump steer. In my opinion bump steer is more important than Ackerman on an offroad vehicle. I recommend to use your spindles as they are and design for minimum bump steer at the rack. Good luck with the build.
What style and type ball joint are you using for the top and bottom of the spindles? I would like to use the same style as you are but I am not sure what they are called or where to buy them. Awesome video, thank you so much for the info. I am building a cross kart and will be using a lot of the ideas you have implemented. Thank you
I'm trying to think what could be the reason for having both front and rear travel the same, because on my dirt-bike the front has alot more travel then the rear, after all the front end takes the biggest load when going over bumps...
It the travel is the same or close it's easier to get the chassis to react to bumps equally. If the travel is way off front to rear, then bumps will be absorbed differently front to back. Repeated bumps will exaggerate this. It's not a must, but if you can get the travel close you'll be better off. Remember a dirt bike has the added benefit of the rider being able to absorb chassis movement and help with stabilizing the bike. In a larger vehicle the rider is along for the ride. So the chassis is only stabilized by the suspension and physics.
Thanks for the good wishes but mines not going well lol engine underpowered and my suspension is giving me fits... thought it was all good but my test run proved different
Welcome aboard! Thanks for subscribing! For the steering you need to work that into your suspension design from the beginning if you can. doug-bug-builder-shop.fourthwall.com/en-usd/products/new-product-5 If you want more detail I have this book where I go over a lot of the design process, and there are a lot of design specs in there too. Good luck.
The only reason this is forward steer is because I have to mount the steering rack so far forward to clear the lower control arms. In a perfect world I would prefer the steering be behind the steering knuckle.
Question. Why not put the steering rack behind the rotor? Just asking cause of the other video you posted about the Ackerman also cause I wanna know before I do it to mine lol
In order to do that I would need to add at least 1 additional U joint to the steering shaft going up to the steering wheel. With the way it is now I'll be able to have only 2 U joints and the angle of them will not be very severe. To me having that connection simple and strong is more important then perfect Ackerman.
I never calculated the instant center. What I did was lay out the geometry of the pivot points of the upper and lower arms and the steering arm so they all were all in line with each other, at least geometrically. This way when the suspension went through its motion there is no bump steer. Roll center and instant center were not my primary concerns, suspension travel was my main goal. I hope that helps.
@@DougBugBuilder Thanks Doug! We modeled our suspension off yours and couldn’t seem to calculate instant center as upper and lower control arms are close to parallel (formula was coming back with 198”)…. So likely little bump steer. Your videos have really helped us (and his high school buddies….they’re learning to weld, use plasma cutter, calculate geometries, spring loading on coil overs, etc). Thank you again!
I have the steering arm on the spindle as close in as I can get it. That'll give me the best Ackerman I can get with forward steer. Other than that it's in Gods hands. 😉
That would work, and it might allow for a little more travel. I'm not sure, I thought about it, but didn't actually mock anything up. But it's a good idea.
I think I want to start with an Ecotec, just like the other Baja has right now. Then I want to play around with putting a turbo on it and making some nice power. But of course I also want to grow up into an LS. lol. But for starters I'm going to play with the Ecotec.
Doug Bug i was wondering if you would hang a v8 on the back lol see i was going to ask do you have any weird ideas to put a vr6 or vr6t on the back or my personal favorite the modern hemis from chrysler
@@Moneygrip The lure of a V8 will eventually get me. But first I'll play with the Ecotec. I'm comfortable with the Ecotec, and I think if it was putting out like 350hp it's low weight would make it lethal.
You might as well start out with a 4.8/5.3 steel block or whatever you can get cheap. Then put a turbo on that. Get the cheapest ls you can fined . Don't worry about getting an aluminum block . It is only 70-100 lbs less and not worth the extra expense. Sloppy stage 2 cam and valve springs. New front and rear main seal. Put a new o ring on the oil pump pick up and don't touch the rest of it. That cam has a good sound to it makes good power naturally aspirated and is actually a turbo cam. IMHO if you even think you might do that in the future just do it now so you can build it for it. You make good videos and build very nice stuff . Keep up the awesome work.
@DougBugBuilder ah, thanks for the reply! I really like your builds and the attention to detail, very good channel Doug! I'm a suspension geek and that's how I found your channel, so much good information on here!
G,day mate, the video content is too vague, TH-cam goes to fast mode, I can't follow. You are the only channel having this problem. Hooroo see you later 😢
Why did you mount the outer tie rod end horizontally instead of vertically? Wouldn’t vertically allow the suspension to cycle further? What is the wall thickness of the tube/square stock you are using for the suspension?
Not sure I have a perfect answer for that. You are right if they were vertical I would get more travel. But I think it would limit my steering. But honestly I'm not sure. I should mock it up and see what the limitations are. Thanks for the head scratcher. ;-) Your other question didn't come all the way through.
@@tomcelica The tubing you see there is 1.75" x .095" thick DOM. This chassis will have 33-35" tires on it so these arms are 1.75". The other chassis has 31" tires and those arms are 1.5" x .095 DOM, and they are plenty strong. Either way I would go at least DOM. The chassis is ERW, but these arms need to be pretty strong.
I think if you work the inner tie ends you can work with more traval because you can put out tie end other side apart from rack so in the center you have three mounting points for rack one rack one point each side center mount has three point not two will that help
![[#SHORTS CLIP] ครูอึ้ง กรรมการอึ้ง ฮ่าๆ l ซานิเบาได้เบา l One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qeBTuMJs4t0/mqdefault.jpg)
This is one of the best video series I've seen on TH-cam. Very informative, straightforward, and no bs.
Thanks Bud, appreciate the comment and kind words.
@@DougBugBuilder ้
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to make these videos. As a newbie just getting interested your videos are clear and easy to follow and packed with a ton of information! Thanks!
Thanks!
Appreciate the comment.
Looking good Doug can't wait to see the rear section come together.
Thanks Steve!
Super impressive problem solving and build process! Thank you for sharing!!
Sure thing, thanks for the support.
Super Awesome job as always!!! You have that steering geometry dialed in now! Anyone considering a project like this needs to watch all of your videos, you can save someone a whole lot of time and aggravation! Thanks again for all the effort you put into making these videos, have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Merry Christmas to you as well.
Thanks for the positive energy!
Great job! I know how frustrating it can be to fall back a couple steps, but in the end it will be worth it! I still have those stock Tacoma rims if your ever crusin by socal.
I really appriciate you sharing all this info its rally helping me plan my own build for after I move to Arizona in a month its looking good and thats alot of travel you're gonna have on that
Glad the videos are helping. Looking forward to updates/progress on your build.
Gonna be pretty cool buggy thanks for sharing happy holidays!
Just perfect! Great job and informative video.
Thanks, I appreciate the comment.
Real nice Mike, looks like you got it
Awesome video🤙
All i need to say is lifted 2000 f150 4x4 😆 that’s why im here 👍 horrible steering bump🤦🏽 im in the process of designing a new setup for steering and control arms. I dont understand why they make upper control arms so short 🤷🏽 im hoping to get a rack and pinion conversion to eliminate the pitman and idler arms. I do realize having my torsions cranked is where my problems start.
I dont want to do solid axles and i have a plan for a different diff to allow for long travel with 4wd 🤘
It’s been great for me I’m in the process of a mini rail / cross kart build thanks for sharing !!!
Heck yeah, hope it helps with your build. Cross Karts are cool, good luck!
Awesome man, this turned out really good with just those little changes. Also your camber gain looks like it's in the ballpark, I'd give it more but that is totally personal preference. You may want to space your steering arm plates apart a bit to have less chance of contacting the tierod even tho I know you will run bumpstops and limiting straps
Holy crap! Some spacers in the steering arm is a great idea. Thanks for sharing that.
Camber gain kills me at the top because it causes the tire to crash into the fenders. My wheelbase isn't really that wide. But I totally agree with you, if I had the clearance I'd put more in there.
Well done! 👍👍👍
Thanks Bud!
I'm going to try this eventually. I have 2 of the predator 212cc engines I bought when I tried to build a mini bike. It works but it's a little sketchy. I'm going to try this next. See if I can't build a river crawler
Now I'm working on ackerman steering on my buggy. Thanx for video :)
Good timing eh.... 😁
Thanks for the comment!
Hi Doug, Enjoying your build. I did see something you might want to watch for in the future. Your steering arm sections above and below the Heim joint have a square notch where the arm transitions to an outside radius hear the end. A generous radius would have been better as corners or notches raise local stresses by a factor of two or more. Repetitive stress cracks are much more likely to start from corners or notches. Even surface finish can be a factor in fatigue cracks. I kind of doubt you will see a problem though with the thickness of material you are using. Interestingly, a few liberty ships split in two during service from cracks that started at the square corners of their deck hatch openings during WWII.
Thanks for the tip buddy. Next time I'll carry the radius out more and try to keep the notches to a minimum. 👍
Yeah! I’m first!! 😂😎
I like the more trial/error approach you use. Tak welding and cycling the suspension. Easy to adjust the pivot points etc. Designing bump steer, etc out of a long travel suspension is tough. Limiting the travel to 22” when you have 24 actual is smart. There is probably some give in limit straps and bump stops that you’ll only find when you’re out playing with it. Better to limit it than to bottom out the heims and break it
You're #1.....;-)
Doug Bug , it was a place keeper before my comment. I mean, I had to watch the whole thing before I could render a good comment, lol
🍪🍪🍪
I agree with everything you said! lol
Great job.... Doug Bug !
Where do you buy your parts at?
Just stumbled upon your hidden gem of a channel. Sub'd real quick!
Welcome aboard! Sorry for the late reply.
That's what I meant a few weeks back, when I gave you the ackermann link. This looks a lot better. Build steering from scratch is not easy.
Next: camber, castor and self-centering. 😋
That link was helpful, thanks!
Hello Doug if you take that two hole center mount for tie ends ad another end for other side tie end that would change Ackerman if you look at stock vw use that geometry
Esse carro está ficando espetacular 👍👍😎😎
Obrigado amigo, valeu o comentário!
Not sure right or wrong but we used a magnetic laser dot on the arm spindle to check for bump steer and try to get the least amount by adjusting mounting locations.
That's not a bad idea. Thanks for the tip. 👍
Realy inovatif👍👍
Hard work but very inspiratif good job 👍
Thanks buddy!
That has come along really good mate, your quality of work and problem solving are extremely impressive. I can't remember if I have asked this before but do you do fabrication or machining for your day job or just a bloody talented hobbyist (don't answer if it's prying too much, I understand privacy is very important) Cheers brother I hope you and Mrs Doug have a wonderful Christmas and a very happy New year.
Hey Craig, I worked in a welding shop for about 10 years out of high school. It wasn't car stuff it was more structural steel. But I learned a lot about welding and fabrication. Then I have been really into RC cars (racing) most of my life. This is where I learned all my suspension and chassis type knowledge. What I do in these videos is now my hobby and it's a merge of the two.
Merry Christmas to you as well!!
@@DougBugBuilder awesome mate, I thought you must have done some form of fab welding with the way you go about it. Well from one former fab welder to another your work is 'Spoty dog' (Australian slang for 'Spot On')
👍
This is pretty inspirational! I’m a few months away from cutting the front end off my bug to make it an a arm car. I bought spindles from pacific, so that makes me nervous that I can’t manipulate the tie rod attachment point. My question is, are you able to modify the Ackerman effect by spreading the tie rod attachment points (making rods shorter) on the steering rack?
Technically you could, but that would have bad consequences on your bump steer. In my opinion bump steer is more important than Ackerman on an offroad vehicle. I recommend to use your spindles as they are and design for minimum bump steer at the rack.
Good luck with the build.
The tire is larger so no problem tire sits in center of support
(Baja) I like this video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks!
Might be a stupid question, but why is the outer tie rod mounted horizontally instead of vertically.
What style and type ball joint are you using for the top and bottom of the spindles? I would like to use the same style as you are but I am not sure what they are called or where to buy them. Awesome video, thank you so much for the info. I am building a cross kart and will be using a lot of the ideas you have implemented. Thank you
That sounds like a cool project!
Check this video, th-cam.com/video/YhbFEoPSf20/w-d-xo.html
In the description are the part numbers for the uniballs.
I'm trying to think what could be the reason for having both front and rear travel the same, because on my dirt-bike the front has alot more travel then the rear, after all the front end takes the biggest load when going over bumps...
It the travel is the same or close it's easier to get the chassis to react to bumps equally. If the travel is way off front to rear, then bumps will be absorbed differently front to back. Repeated bumps will exaggerate this. It's not a must, but if you can get the travel close you'll be better off.
Remember a dirt bike has the added benefit of the rider being able to absorb chassis movement and help with stabilizing the bike. In a larger vehicle the rider is along for the ride. So the chassis is only stabilized by the suspension and physics.
That steering arm looks pretty close to the lower arm fully extended, If you steer to the left it looks like it may have a problem.
It clears, but that is the limiting factor. Any farther and it would bind.
Thanks for the good wishes but mines not going well lol engine underpowered and my suspension is giving me fits... thought it was all good but my test run proved different
I hope you can get it sorted out. Remember, if it was easy anybody could do it. ;-)
Where can I start or what steps should I follow to design the steering geometry?. Spectacular proyects! new sub :) greetings from Mexico!
Welcome aboard! Thanks for subscribing!
For the steering you need to work that into your suspension design from the beginning if you can.
doug-bug-builder-shop.fourthwall.com/en-usd/products/new-product-5
If you want more detail I have this book where I go over a lot of the design process, and there are a lot of design specs in there too. Good luck.
Hi bro, is there advantage on putting the steering on the front of the knuckle than on the back?
The only reason this is forward steer is because I have to mount the steering rack so far forward to clear the lower control arms. In a perfect world I would prefer the steering be behind the steering knuckle.
Question. Why not put the steering rack behind the rotor? Just asking cause of the other video you posted about the Ackerman also cause I wanna know before I do it to mine lol
In order to do that I would need to add at least 1 additional U joint to the steering shaft going up to the steering wheel. With the way it is now I'll be able to have only 2 U joints and the angle of them will not be very severe. To me having that connection simple and strong is more important then perfect Ackerman.
My son and I are working on this right now…..fantastic explanation! How did you calculate the instant center for bump steer avoidance?
Thank you
I never calculated the instant center. What I did was lay out the geometry of the pivot points of the upper and lower arms and the steering arm so they all were all in line with each other, at least geometrically. This way when the suspension went through its motion there is no bump steer. Roll center and instant center were not my primary concerns, suspension travel was my main goal. I hope that helps.
@@DougBugBuilder Thanks Doug! We modeled our suspension off yours and couldn’t seem to calculate instant center as upper and lower control arms are close to parallel (formula was coming back with 198”)…. So likely little bump steer. Your videos have really helped us (and his high school buddies….they’re learning to weld, use plasma cutter, calculate geometries, spring loading on coil overs, etc). Thank you again!
How are you incorporating the "Ackerman angle" ?
Seems like it wouldn't steer as well without that geometry. 👍
I have the steering arm on the spindle as close in as I can get it. That'll give me the best Ackerman I can get with forward steer. Other than that it's in Gods hands. 😉
Angle your steering mount with angled misalignment spacers
What about your Ackerman ....??
Which joint you are using in front??
Those are 1" uniballs from KarTek Offroad.
14:45 what if you made the pivot points horizontal instead of vertical?
That would work, and it might allow for a little more travel. I'm not sure, I thought about it, but didn't actually mock anything up. But it's a good idea.
Mount the hyme vertically
Mang ngmong naon asihhh
What engine are you going go hang out back?
I think I want to start with an Ecotec, just like the other Baja has right now. Then I want to play around with putting a turbo on it and making some nice power. But of course I also want to grow up into an LS. lol. But for starters I'm going to play with the Ecotec.
Doug Bug i was wondering if you would hang a v8 on the back lol see i was going to ask do you have any weird ideas to put a vr6 or vr6t on the back or my personal favorite the modern hemis from chrysler
@@Moneygrip The lure of a V8 will eventually get me. But first I'll play with the Ecotec. I'm comfortable with the Ecotec, and I think if it was putting out like 350hp it's low weight would make it lethal.
You might as well start out with a 4.8/5.3 steel block or whatever you can get cheap. Then put a turbo on that.
Get the cheapest ls you can fined . Don't worry about getting an aluminum block . It is only 70-100 lbs less and not worth the extra expense.
Sloppy stage 2 cam and valve springs. New front and rear main seal. Put a new o ring on the oil pump pick up and don't touch the rest of it. That cam has a good sound to it makes good power naturally aspirated and is actually a turbo cam.
IMHO if you even think you might do that in the future just do it now so you can build it for it.
You make good videos and build very nice stuff . Keep up the awesome work.
@@matthewhoney2132 Thanks for the tips, I've been keeping my eye out at the local boneyard for a good LS to start with.
Wouldn't it be easier to move the rack instead?
I can't, it interferes with the suspension components. Or at least it would be really complicated.
@DougBugBuilder ah, thanks for the reply! I really like your builds and the attention to detail, very good channel Doug! I'm a suspension geek and that's how I found your channel, so much good information on here!
@@Gregorybridgewater Thanks, I'm a suspension geek too. 👍
I appreciate the feedback.
G,day mate, the video content is too vague, TH-cam goes to fast mode, I can't follow. You are the only channel having this problem. Hooroo see you later 😢
This makes me think of them that drop their auto’s, and tear their tires up on their fenders.
Should of mounted that steering armvertically instead of horizontally!!
Why did you mount the outer tie rod end horizontally instead of vertically? Wouldn’t vertically allow the suspension to cycle further? What is the wall thickness of the tube/square stock you are using for the suspension?
Not sure I have a perfect answer for that. You are right if they were vertical I would get more travel. But I think it would limit my steering. But honestly I'm not sure. I should mock it up and see what the limitations are. Thanks for the head scratcher. ;-)
Your other question didn't come all the way through.
The second question was how thick is the tube you will be using for the suspension arms? Is it .120 wall or ???
@@tomcelica The tubing you see there is 1.75" x .095" thick DOM. This chassis will have 33-35" tires on it so these arms are 1.75". The other chassis has 31" tires and those arms are 1.5" x .095 DOM, and they are plenty strong. Either way I would go at least DOM. The chassis is ERW, but these arms need to be pretty strong.
Ngintip bos
Add the words,other channels are the same 😢. Hooroo mate
Plenty of travel
I think if you work the inner tie ends you can work with more traval because you can put out tie end other side apart from rack so in the center you have three mounting points for rack one rack one point each side center mount has three point not two will that help
With changes I had to make for Ackerman I had to let some things like that go and just work with what I had.