This reminds me of some of the discourse surrounding Children of Blood and Bone when it first came out. Manny white reviewers said it was unoriginal and used the same tired fantasy tropes, then turn around and read fantasy by white authors with those exact same tropes and give them 5 stars. I can't remember if it was you or another booktuber that said it, but holding BIPOC (and especially black) content creators to a standard where they have to go above and beyond when white creators only have to do the bare minimum is ugly and it needs to go.
We had a list of like 5 books to choose from for English homework and a lot of people in my class chose Children of Blood and Bone. I didn't read it, but I noticed that all of my white friends felt kinda meh about the book, but my non-white friends thought it was amazing, or at least liked the book. I guess I never made that connection until this comment since I never read it.
I actually just finished Children of Blood and Bone last night/this morning. I think it was a three star read for me. It had too many writing and structuring problems to be truly great, but was still interesting and dynamic enough to be worthwhile. Maybe if I was a BIPOC reader, the joy of seeing characters that I can relate to and and issues that are relevant to me would have been great enough to outweigh those issues. But even for white people who don't feel that way, it feels like overkill to give it one star and act like there's /nothing/ interesting or redeeming about the story
@ Anne Dekker not just "some" people, but many, need to learn this! And not just with books or movies but with all sorts of things and experiences in life.
"you have to live with strangers that have the ability to end your life with a single phone call". Just hearing that phrase, I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't call the story behind it a thriller. But then make the main character a person of color...and now it's no longer a thriller?
"Lilith's Brood" was TERRIFYING to me. The notion of a Black woman being genetically altered and bred for the benefit of the human race by these aliens was a straight up horror story for me, even though it's officially classified as sci-fi. I normally let my teenage son read most of my science fiction stories, but this trilogy is going to sit on the shelf for awhile. I feel like Octavia Butler mostly wrote horror, but because there were racialized themes and elements they put her in science fiction or just plain fantasy a lot.
Idk if this sounds dumb, but as gay white cis man, whenever I’m able to realize I’m not fully grasping a book about a minority/POC due to not understanding the circumstances, I try to imagine it being about homophobia instead of racism. Not to invalidate it, but to be like, “holy shit, this could happen to me”, especially in our current political climate in the US. I know people LGBT+ people right now that are begging their families to choose the right candidate so they’ll have less of a chance of their marriage rights being taken away. And people choose the president over them. And it’s all so much worse because POC can’t hide who they are if need be like I can; it’s literally on their faces. Don’t mean to be long winded, but it just makes me believe that the people that can’t get into minority thrillers are people that aren’t minorities (so basically a straight cis white man) or have a hard time empathizing with them.
I'm a black gay man and I agree with you. We're trained to empathize with the mainstream since their stories are so unavoidable as a reader/viewer but if they wanted to they could probably not read a book with a single minority for the rest of their life and not miss much.
noface Personally I feel like the only reason that could be valid is if they’re currently facing a strong problem due to their identity. For example, gays after the Pulse shooting. Clearly that was a big event affecting them in particular. Racism is always going to exist in my opinion, and anyone that doesn’t think that BIPOCs aren’t the most targeted minority in the US right now is delusional. Back on the topic a bit, I don’t even need to read the BIPOC thrillers I read (still do tho) because every day life for black people seems terrifying enough. I remember after George Floyd was murdered, I was driving to work and thought about how scary it would be to be a black person right then. I could literally be pulled over on my way to work and shot due to racial profiling. Maybe not, but the possibility didn’t look good,. I can’t say the same for myself as a white gay cis man. Like I said, I can hide being a minority if need be because I’m white. That’s when you know it’s a bigger problem. It’s all about checking your privilege.
You dont have to do that. White people come from black people, we are literally black people without melanin. Black people dont have "white features" white people have black features. As per Jane Elliotts words, every human is your 30th to 50th cousin. And in James Baldwins words, who quoted Malcolm X with this: "White is a state of mind. Youre as white as you think you are, as white as you choose to be. its a moral choice. Btw, racism is intersectional, which means LGBT people and women are part of it. By default, being homosexual, you are connected to any story about racism.
SarahGabriella84 idk if it’s because I’m tired and I’m at work but I didn’t get what you were saying “you don’t have to do that” to? I will say that I don’t necessarily agree with white being a state of mind, at least not completely. Like you can protest and donate and be so very integrated into black culture, but unless you yourself are BIPOC, you’re still just white and still reap *some* of the benefits POC miss out on. This is where the white cis straight man i mentioned is, believing he’s a savior to the minorities and thinking he knows all and can freely judge when he truly has no clue and is just doing the bare minimum, if that. Granted, there’s a big difference between some white people and the degrees that they embrace their own/oppose POC differs.
This conversation needs to be had. What we as BIPOC find scary, disturbing, or frightening and anxiety inducing, is very different than what our White counterparts find horrifying. Our lived experiencs often influence what we find terrifying. Those lived experiences are, of course, based on our gender and/or ethnicity. It's just a simple fact.
it boils my blood whenever people say my sister the serial killer is not a thriller/horror! that book is INCREDIBLE and one of my fav thriller/horrors! thank you for your words on it!
SOMEONE LITERALLY JUST COMMENTED SAYING IT ISNT THRILLER HORROR. First of all, I literally just explained that comedic satire is valid and still counts as part of the genre. Second, the writer lives in Lagos, Nigeria. she is writing thriller/horror from her lens as a non USA person. its problematic as SHIT to impose USA thriller standards on her interpretation of the genre. gross.
noire, I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that you don't expect us to be perfect but you are constantly pointing out ways for us to do better. I've always felt stupid for not automatically knowing other people's struggles in the same way that they experienced it so I didn't even want to acknowledge what I didn't know. Your channel and confidence has motivated me to educate myself more and more. I will forever be thankful
Omg thank you!! I’m very very happy to hear this. It can be so daunting to do this work but it is absolutely necessary that each of us do, even when it’s tough
"you have to live with strangers that have the ability to end your life with a single phone call" .. just hearing you say that conjures feelings and memories that would absolutely be categorized as thriller and horror. this is amazing
“Y’all are tapdancing on my last and final nerve” 😂*snaps fingers* ‘When no one is watching’ is from another level. I’m glad I continued to read it, even though I read so many horrible reviews about the book.
I'M SO GLAD YOU DID TOO!!!!! ugh i respect your book opinions so highly and I'm really glad we feel the same on this. and lmaoooo its a line from the book and i had to use it.
@@JesseOnTH-cam thats means alot❤️ Whoops...I heard a few more awesome lines where I was like: woeiii she’s on fire, but I always have my audiobooks on high speed😂
I don't understand how anyone can think Get Out isn't scary. That movie was terrifying and haunted me for months after watching it. So many of the books you mention here I've been wanting to read for a while. Honestly, I find that many times, horror/thriller novels written by POC authors hit so much harder
Get Out is sort of a reflection of my biggest fear. I’ve always been afraid of being kidnapped but after watching that movie, being abducted and hypnotized for the benefit of racist white people topped it. In a way, we’re sort of experiencing that today with the constant condoning of culture appropriation and blackfishing but without performing surgeries on Black people. So to hear white People claim it wasn’t scary enough for them frustrates me because they are privileged enough to not experience what us Black people go through on a daily basis.
@@aniyamarie8370 it's not scary like in a traditional ghost, demon way. It's psychologically scary. In fact it's terrifying and left me so paranoid after watching it.
My favorite horror movies are regularly called "not scary". My favorite of all time is The Omen and I realized recently that people just do not think about the implications of the things they watch. One of the fundamental things that makes Get out terrifying is the fear that white people could be experimenting on and oppressing black people in ways we do not even see and then the scene with the police car at the end almost made me want to cry, like. The fact that in The Omen this little kid seems to be so evil is terrifying for a number of reasons 1) it calls into question the idea that evil is taught and not an innate quality and also, how do you get rid of an actual demonic child in any way that doesn't leave you looking like the bad guy? Because of the association of children with innocence Damien (the kid in the film) could do literally anything and the parents or some other adult would still seem like the worst human for killing them. The idea that evil could infect a child is already a fear we hold as people who raise children in our society but the realization that there would be no good way to stop that evil works as a double whammy lol.
I don’t understand how people didn’t feel anxious/terrified for Sydney while reading/listening to When No One is Watching. Even just the Uber drive, the weird shaking at nighttime, everything! Like if you can’t get into the MIND of the MC then what’s the point of reading?!? Also, in When No One is Watching, people criticized the ending for being unrealistic. Bish who said book endings had to be realistic????? Have u seen Quentin Tarantino? Lmao
Yeah all stories have some element of unrealism, because really the vast majority of us aren't going through our own epic adventure. Also I'm not sure if it's because of me being autistic but i tend to have a high suspension of disbelief, like when people will say "oh i don't buy that this exists/happens/etc." For me i have a higher chance of tolerating them
@@theadora1693 also i think anyone who says the ending is unrealistic is very ignorant about the history of forced and coerced medical experimentation of Black bodies in America. This has been incredibly well documented since slavery. and continues to happen to this very day. its not only ignorant to deny this history and its REALITY for many Black peoples but also racist to deny it. it just...its not ok.
I didn't feel anything for Sydney because she was an awful character. She just came off as a horrible and unlikeable person. I also was rooting for the horrendous character that is Theo to get killed off at some point during the book. Had he turned out not to be bulletproof, I would have, in fact, been thrilled, and I could say the author did her job. In fact, the only person I ended up feeling sorry for was Marcus, the apparently evil ex. I fully get why the poor dude ran away before the book even started. The whole thing came off like the author has never met an actual white person in her life, but clearly has a bit of a kink for pink peen going on. Yeah, this book was horrifying, but for all the wrong reasons.
I haven't read the book yet, but I've always found it so interesting (& disheartening) that some white folks are unable to empathize with or see themselves within in non-white characters. From the description of the book and from what you mentioned in the video, it is clear that the protagonist in When No One is Watching is going through a lot of stress and anxiety - even if you don't have experience with or understand the harm of gentrification, you can still empathize/sympathize with someone in distress, right? This is obviously a problem with works behind the thriller/horror genre, but it always baffled me. Marginalized readers have had to read books for so long without seeing themselves represented in these works, and yet they still are able to find parts of themselves in white-dominated books.
Marginalized readers are always expected to read and comprehend books without themselves represented since childhood/at school, while white kids are never forced to read 100% bipoc syllabus in any given school-year, so it isn't surprising some of them are unable to develop such skills even as adults.
I hadn't heard of many of these books but now I can't wait to read them. I love your reviews - they are so smart and funny and well-produced and your channel has pointed me in new literary directions that are so rewarding! It's frustrating that a concept as simple as "different people have different experiences based on their various identities and thus would have different fears and anxieties" can seem so distant from mainstream criticism, but you break it down so clearly and concisely I hope more people see this. Thank you and keep doing what you do! (noire - couldn't figure out how to work it in...)
🥺🥺shoot this comment made me really happy because I’ve been questioning the quality of my channel and it’s production value. So major major thanks for this confidence boost. I needed it!
@@JesseOnTH-cam Absolutely! I also recently started following your Instagram and it's great - good "story" content, which is hard to pull off (or least I'd imagine it is since most accounts don't, and I certainly don't know how to use it properly lol). Anyway, yes, you are definitely a high quality TH-cam/Instagram follow. Can't wait to keep watching!
"White people do not get to define the genre of fear" brilliantly stated! 👏👏 I have noticed this with The Year of the Witching especially because it's constantly shelved in general fiction EVEN THO it literally states in the synopsis it's a fantasy debut and I heard it's blended with horror as well. It's incredibly frustrating. This is a huge problem, At least at my local bookstore, because it makes finding the books i want to read that much harder!! I had to search high and low for Mexican Gothic and any tananarive due!
I read a series of Tweets by Silvia Moreno Garcia about how reviewers and distributors should properly categorize Mexican Gothic as horror fiction...very next day I saw it in general fiction at a local bookstore. 🙄
I do not know if this counts, but I recently watched "Little Fires Everywhere" and I consider that horror. The amount of anxiety and "benevolent" racism that the white family exhibits towards Kerry Washington's character and her daughter was almost anxiety inducing and the struggle that the asian mother had to go through in getting back her child and the possibility of having the adopted child become a self-hating, white supremacist Asian American hit me hard. Even though I am not adopted, I grew up in a white dominated neighborhood and was very isolated emotionally, I cannot imagine living with an adopted white parents who only use your culture as props to celebrate your heritage. Also spoiler alert, but when the asian mother took back her baby in the end, I was legitimately scared for her fate since once she is found out, then should have the threat of being deported back because of her race and socioeconomic status. I have had some deportation threats aimed at me around 2016 (I still do not know if it was being perceived as Asian or Central American, as I have been mistaken as Central American by other Latinos), but those 2 threats that I got still emotionally affect me now.
How anyone can say that My Sister The Serial Killer isn't a thriller/horror or suspenseful astounds me... That book was I N C R E D I B L E Also people who don't realise the fear and anxiety that comes with gentrification, really... Some people are just... 🙄 Amazing video as always Jesse (I'm on a big catchup of your videos) 💕💕💕 (noire)
Get Out is easily the best thriller movie I've ever seen. So tense! Also you're really making me want to read When No One Is Watching... Looks like a 6 month wait for the copy from my library. 😭
When I was reading When No One Is Watching, I was so on edge and even paused to be like "how are people not finding this thrilling???" And you discussed this so well and I appreciate this so much. I obviously won't experience this book on the same level as a Black person or a person of color, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge how terrifying this book was and feel the anxiety that it builds.
I've honestly been so confused at how many people have said the book 'feels more like a contemporary' to them. Like... how do you not notice all the extremely suspicious shit that is happening and Sydney's building anxiety and fear?
After you talked about this in the gc I went and looked for reviews and i almost shut down the internet. I've lived in an area that's 99% white my whole life, been one of the few Black people in my life, and I was so anxious reading When No One Is Watching. When I was dating my ex I was constantly on edge because he would drop in comments about how I was "too much", so I toned down literally everything about me. Reading that reminded me of that feeling. FUCKING TERRIFYING. One of the scariest books I've ever read, and Get Out freaked me out more than any movie ever. I was surrounded by white people when I saw that movie👀
I’ve been really wanting to read When No One Is Watching, and I am really thankful that I’m seeing this video first. Now I can be more mindful as I read. Thank you for speaking on this important topic.
I just recently read The Ballad of Black Tom, and while it is a Lovecraftian horror, I found the racism and the violence against black people was the more terrifying element and made it a much more effective horror than if it had been a white Lovecraft retelling.
The way you described that book sounds TERRIFYING. It's ridiculous that people would question it's place in the genre. I typically don't read thriller books, but you got me to add this one to my tbr. Thank you for the call in 💜
Oh my gosh. I do the same thing when I'm upset. Usually it's when I'm nervous or uncomfortable; I'll just start smiling. It's so inappropriate and I feel terrible about it but I just can't stop because it's how I respond to things that are difficult. And I never even thought about the connection of that to how I was raised by it makes *so much sense*.
Thank you for sharing your feelings about this. When No One Is Watching terrified me too. I was terrified for Sydney, her mother, her neighbors. It is absolutely a THRILLER!
This was a thought provoking video. I tend to dislike thrillers, but I loved The Death of Vivek Oji. For me (a white cis woman), this book had me in tears but not necessarily on the edge of my seat. Your perspective helped me to see that I was filtering my feelings about the book through a privileged lens without realizing it. Thank you.
whoever didn't find When No One Is Watching scary must have zoned out for the entirety of the book....parts of that book were just s t r e s s f u l The short story collection Her Body and Other Parties is some quality horror/gothic fiction! The Diviners is also pretty creepy at times...
@@JesseOnTH-cam same here to HBAOP!!! Did you have a favorite story?? my cousin and I read it at the same time and the story she liked least wound up being the one I liked most lol (Especially Heinous)
@@JesseOnTH-cam hmmm if you like supernatural mysteries with a large cast of characters set in the 1920s, I think so? Ah but at the same time maybe I shouldn't be recommending this series until i go back and re-read the first book, read the last one in the series most recently and found it kind of annoying 😅 have memories of the first one being good though...
I’m so glad you shared this video because I thought I was hallucinating when I would read reviews written by white readers about the work of BIPOC authors. For example, there were a lot of white readers giving Internment by Samira Ahmed 3 stars and below for ridiculous reasons. Some were talking about how the 17-year old MC acts too much like a teenager instead of a girl trying to save her people; others said she was trying too hard to save her people. Meanwhile, Muslim readers gave the book either 4 or 5 stars because that book was a reflection of their fears. Some of them claimed they’ve never had that hard of a life but they still loved it nonetheless because they knew they could wind up just like the MC and others like her.
Let them know Jesse! This is an ongoing frustration that I have when it comes to reviews of books by non-white authors. On TH-cam and Goodreads you’ll find that the top reviews are from white reviewers who’ve missed the cultural/historical context of the book. Books by authors of color are measured against an outdated or arbitrary standard and it’s frustrating. Noire
I just read this book and this is my first review I'm watching and I am SHOCKED that people are saying it wasn't scary throughout the book! I was on the edge of my seat for so much of it. I just got to the point where you said white ppl thought get out wasn't scary 😳 I was like traumatized by this movie. Our society progresses at a snails pace.
I definitely felt this topic !! It’s so freaking true. When Get Out came out my white friends said that it wasn’t scary and I was like it terrified me 🤷🏾♀️ you just don’t experience the same stuff I do
I just realized that I also do that smiling thing when I'm upset. Like no lie, I'll be in therapy smiling the whole time as I talk about some really upsetting shit like what the fuuuuck. Also I love that you talked about this because I remember the ignorance from some people's mouths for saying that "Get Out" wasn't scary. Everything from the plot, to the music, to the camera work, the acting, the sound editing of the white lady tapping her tea cup, ALL of that added to "Get Out" being a very well done, horror or thriller. Also noir.
I‘ve never read a thriller in my life and therefore didn‘t know much about the books you were talking about and I still found it so enlightening, informative and important. Great discussion!
I LOVE all the BIPOC thrillers you mentioned!!! Brilliant video and topic. Let people be uncomfortable. This is an important issue. Sending good vibes.
I recently finished Tiffany D. Jackson's most recent novel, Grown. And despite the fact that I am not black I deeply connected to the main character Enchanted and was absolutely on the edge of my seat the whole book. There is so much depth and reliability to her character. The fact some people will stop trying to understand a character at the color of their skin is so baffling to me.
Thank you for this video! Im currently reading my sister the serial killer, and I am LOVING it. I thought that I wasn't going to because I had hear so many people say its over hyped ... but yeah I love the satire.
Thank you for saying all of this! It's *so frustrating* to hear (mainly white) reviewers say that BIPOC thrillers and horror novels aren't X (scary, thrilling, etc). I saw this so much with reviewers who said that they just didn't find Stephen Graham Jones's The Only Good Indians scary or "not understandable" so they didn't like it...but then turn around and praise books that blatantly misrepresent Indigneous peoples (looking at you, Stephen King). Like, google is free if you don't understand something. Or, like you mentioned: read other books by BIPOC authors. *sighs deeply* Great video!
i haven't read the only good indians but i'm already annoyed at how white reviewers have been discussing it. i'm planning on reading it next month and i'm so excited
Noire! I hear no lies. What's scary/thrilling feels like such a subjective thing and clearly people are forgetting to look outside of what's scary to them specifically. :/ Those earrings tho!
this was very insightful and definitely has given me some critique to chew on. I only this year realized that I have no clue what horror is. I think horror is constantly sold as this gory, constant action type genre, when it can be anything that shocks, disgusts, or scares on ANY level and for different people (obviously, who has the same fears and levels of shock? no one) "i can't connect [with characters]" =/= "this is a bad book" and people have such a hard time realizing that.
I saw a lot of people talking badly about When No One Was Watching and saying it didnt do what it meant to. Glad to see your video after seeing all the bad reviews of it because I feel like I've seen a lot of hate on it. (side note lol I had to ask a friend who had read it and loved it if Sydney lived so I could read it and not be worried. I always get so scared if a character and I share a name!). Noire 🎃
Thank you so much for pointing this out! I recently read and loooved My Sister, the Serial Killer, but I did find myself thinking that thriller wasn't the right category for it, even though I was pretty anxious and totally hooked the entire book. It really shows how I have come to think of thrillers always having to have shocking plot twists like Gone Girl. They really aren't necessary to make a story scary, they've just been so popularized. noire🕸️
If you are not scared by a book personally, that does not mean that you can write it off as a thriller/horror. I don't find many Stephen King horror novels scary, but I still acknowledge that it's a thriller. Put that same respect onto BIPOC authors and stories as well! Thanks for this discussion, I was unaware that this was an issue, and I think it's great that you did this video, no matter how nervous you were :)
This was such an interesting conversation. I also find that this even happens across other genres where own voices BIPOC authors write about their own experiences. I've noticed that some white people will project what they think is "right" on these types of books and critique a book that way based on its representation.
I’m so thankful for these authors because they widened the concept of thrillers I do not in general like to read thrillers but When no one is watching made me want to give thrillers a second chance.
One of my favorite classes I took in college was called Postcolonial Crime Fiction and it really helped me to see horror and thriller from non-commercial, non-white, and non-American perspectives. This video reminded me of all the amazing books we read, and I would especially recommend Moth Smoke by Mohsin Hamid, Frankenstein in Baghdad by Ahmed Saadawi, and The Interpreter by Suki Kim. I’ve been meaning to read My Sister, the Serial Killer and now I’ll be sure to add When No One is Watching to my order. Thank you so much for the amazing video! (Noire)
idk if its written noir or noire anyways!! loved the new intro!! and im thankful you made this video its an important topic to talk about i cant stand when someone rates a book bad just bc they couldnt relate to it i understand it happens but if so dont give it a rating /:
When you talked about people telling you to smile, I felt that in my BONES! I do the same thing now too! I am starting When No One Is Watching this week and I am so excited to read it! (Noire)
I didn’t even know that (white) people didn’t consider When No One is Watching a thriller 🤦♀️ That makes no sense whatsoever. The ending wasn’t my favourite (a personal preference for pacing), but the book was terrifying and so unique!
Also when you spoke about how when you’re mad and incensed that you laugh/grin through the anger, it totally reminded me of Maya Angelou’s performance of “We Wear the Mask”❤
This is so spot on! And I've noticed the reviews with when no one is watching which is a book I've been scared to pick up because I know it'll be horrifying for me *noire*
Noire💀Thank you so much for making this video Jesse❤️ I personally have never been interested in the thriller genre bc I didn’t really know anything about its broad spectrum and thought they were all like Stephen King commercial thrillers but after hearing you talk about what possibilities thrillers can have, I am much more interested in the genre and will be sure to make BIPOC thrillers a priority. You also have completely convinced me to want to read When No One is Watching and in another video of yours I recently watched I added two others to my TBR. A book I read earlier this year, The Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead, was so incredible and thought provoking and I had considered it (alternate) historical fiction which it is but I 100% think it’s a thriller too because it was so terrifying and anxiety filling in the way it portrayed America’s horrifying racist history.🖤
I just finished When No One Is Watching last night and I'm baffled as to how anyone could say it, "wasn't scary enough" My heart was in my throat for the last like, 150 pages? The unease hit me barely 20 pages in. Like, okay maybe the atmosphere didn't hit some people sure whatever. But, that ending bit?! That was intense and HORRIFYING. When they found that hallway, being vague to avoid spoilers, I was aching inside at what was being described. This book was so, so scary. I'm really glad I rewatched this video because I have Vivek Oji from the library but I guess from the title I was expecting literary fiction, but I'm way stoked that it's a thriller.
NOIRE. As always, you’ve been super balanced and clear when you’ve talked about this and I’m really glad you brought it up. And no one is excited to weed their garden but it always feels good once it’s done! I’m also OBSESSED with your earrings! Thanks for sharing your thoughts 💛
Noire. I'm new to booktube (started watching June 2020) so I haven't read or heard conversations about thrillers before. You and Starlah convinced me to read The Death of Vivek Oji and I loved it! I've put When No One Is Watching on hold. I've never been into jump scares or scaring just to be scared, but the nuance in the definition of thriller you used convinced me to try thrillers by bipoc authors. Noire.
Thank you for making this video! Even though I don’t read a ton of thrillers I am looking forward to pushing myself to notice this issue in other genres I read more often. Noire 🦇PS I love the earrings 😍
Starting When No One is Watching this morning! I’m so happy I watched this first. We need to continue to educate ourselves and it allows for me to go into with a different perspective. Thank you for your videos!
Thank you for making this. I have so much to think about now. The next book I read is going to be When No One Is Watching. I try to be aware of these issues and self aware of my privileged perspective, but this issue had never occurred to me. I'm so glad I watched this.
THANK YOU!!! I thought When No One is Watching was incredibly disturbing because it so closely mirrors reality. Also, it drives me crazy when people do this with horror saying something isn't horror because they didn't find it to be scary enough. Noire
This is a super important beginning to a conversation on who gets to define a genre and the reminder to bring anti-racist work to all parts of our lives, et noire 🐮
SUCH A GOOD DISCUSSION! Every time you amaze me with your articulation and I love all the ways in which you discuss it. With so much strength but also empathy and I just love you. It's not a genre I've delved into much but when I do I can be wary of this trap. Like you said, it's about constantly working and checking yourself forever. Also: I smile and giggle when I'm livid or uncomfortable as well, it's annoying. I've not really thought about it but you're right, I've been told to smile my whole life, especially in hospitality. It's ingrained in me and its pretty sick really. Thanks for all you do and never stop discussing real topics ❤
thank you so much for pointing this out. i never realized how i describe thrillers and horror by bipoc and i was just saying i wish i had more. i can't believe how critical i've been when i'm viet-chinese myself ugh. thank you so much again and thank you for being so understanding about how insidious racism is. love you and i'm definitely gonna unlearn how i see thrillers.
This was such a great video ! I've been thinking about this a lot with the release of Mexican Gothic and people not calling it horror. I haven't read it or any other thriller/horror novels bc I'm easily scared and I already don't have a sleep schedule so I don't need anything helping my lack of sleep lol. But I'd be willing to bet that there are other slow moving haunted house stories written by white people that are always referred to as horror. I also think publishing and marketing need to do better, as they often determine what exactly the general public will perceive a book as, and they need to officially classify and mention that books by BIPOC are actually thrillers/horror if they are those genres. (Noire! Sorry this comment ended up being so long)
I don't typically read thrillers, but you made When No One is Watching sound absolutely terrifying and absolutely incredible, so I've added it to my tbr. As a white man, I can't relate to that fear of gentrification, but I feel like if the book is well-written, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to get myself into the mind of the protagonist and experience her fear. Perhaps it's because I'm gay, and have spent years of my life relating to straight protagonists, but I've never understood it when people say they can't relate to minority characters. Any book should be able to make you empathise with the character, no matter if you share their identity or not. I've read books with elements of racism that terrified me and made me feel sick. So if an author is going to take that fear and weaponise it as the main theme of the novel, I see no reason why that shouldn't be absolutely horrifying. Noir. EDIT: Just realised how much this makes me seem like an "I'm not racist" comment, which is absolutely not what it is intended to be. I by no means give myself a "get out of racism free" card, and fully understand that racism is an action, not just a belief, and that all white people are socialised with some level of racist ideas.
Loved the ending when you talked about anti racism being long term work and realising it and moving forward - it’s always good to instill hope when there’s a realisation like this
Noire! Omg I definitely need to expand my reading taste to thrillers after watching this. You gave me a semblance of hope for them. Most often when people talked about thrillers they talked about those white domestic ones and they are just...never interesting. Periodt. Often times, their synopses would be about an affair where the other woman is "crazy", a mental institute (whether it's the protag's final resting place or the story's setting), or stalking of some kind. And they never go anywhere else with it. So I definitely need to read No One Else is Watching and all the other ones listed in the video especially for this season 😭
*Noire* I'm so glad you spoke about about this. I live in an environment that would not ask me to hold myself accountable like that and now I have another thing to know to be mindful of when I toss my opinion out into the void.
Thank you for this video! I read "When No One is Watching" and it was scary. As a Black woman I can relate to the protagonist from the first page to the very end. I was so scared for Sydney when her life was in danger, and I felt her stress, anxiety, and lack of sleep because of it. Here's the word of the day: Noire. Thank you again for this, and keep it up!
Had to come back to this video after reading When No One Is Watching and it was so tense FROM THE BEGINNING. These people don't know what they're talking about. Also super informative, so thank you for the recommendation.
Noire......Thanks for talking about this. I am a biracial woman who identifies as black and I have also experienced hearing people talk about BIPOC books as not having good substance. And videos like this help people move along that path to learning.
Noir. I'm old (ha!) and I remember when Beloved came out. Oprah loved it, so I hunted it down. I loved gothic horror and it felt like that, where the horror is in the thought that these things were possible, that sadness, fear, and anger haunt us. And then people hated the movie. It gave me nightmares, but my friends fell asleep watching it. Thank you for the list of books to try. When No One is Watching in particular sounds amazing.
NOIRE!!! 🧛🏾♀️THIS WAS EV👏🏾ERY👏🏾THING!! I APPLAUDE YOU!!! The book had me shook to my core. ANXIETY ON 10 MILLION the entire book! Thank u for this video! 🙌🏾💗
Oyinkan Braithwaite's thriller was in my top ten for this year!!! Such a brilliant novel. So many levels. I really connected with the idea that she was so affected by childhood trauma that it affected her actions as an adult. The satire was a way of making the reader feel uncomfortable.
I don't read Thrillers in general. So I wasn't able to follow a lot of this, having not read most of the books. But I do think you speaking out on what is anxiety inducing to BIPOC people is important. I appreciate you speaking up. And the higher bar for BIPOC authors and the gatekeeping is SUPER GROSS. While I still won't read this genre, I will try to pay more attention when reading other books when there are more layers than I'm seeing. And of course for you: Noire
I read My sister the serial killer and thought it was more a literary novel than a thriller. Now I want to see the thriller aspects in it. Although, writing literary fiction also isn’t something to be ashamed of. 🔪🪓⚰️
I finished "When No One is Watching" last night and had to come back and rewatch this to say that I agree with everything you say. I think people view thrillers as things that are only scary or thrilling for them and that's not fair at all. That is like someone saying "Gone Girl" isn't a thriller because they don't identify with it. And while I sure as heck don't, since if I 'go missing' there's not going to be a nationwide search for me since most people won't give a funk, I wouldn't say it's not a thriller. And I was under the impression that My Sister the Serial Killer was advertised as thriller and not horror but I have also slept and drank since it came out so I could be wrong. I did get the satire in it though and can't see how anyone would have missed that.
i think it was advertised as a thriller to be honest! I personally assert that its a horror book. Also its important to consider that since the author is Nigerian, the book may reflect on how Nigerians write thrillers/horror and we should all (those of us who don't live in Lagos where the book is set) should be mindful of that
Just from reading the title I felt called out by this because I know that I do this. I am trying to read more POC books and my favorite genre is thrillers which is where the disconnect comes in for me. The way society markets POC books and stories in general is not a way that appeals to me and I am beginning to realize that it's not the content that I am anticipating because I haven't read many thrillers about or by POC authors, its that I have let whites define what is scary and what is a thriller for me and realizing is not even the first step, I have to step out of the comfort zone I've build with this false knowledge and define for myself what a thriller is however hard that might be. Thank you for this call out, that ended up being more of a call in for the people that do this. Will be putting No One Is Watching on my October tbr as the first step for this.
Omg you’re the best, Bin. Pls hmu if you want to talk about it, I’m always always here for you!!!! It can be so so tough to unpack and become aware of all the ways white people have defined US and to learn how to resist. So don’t be hard on yourself. It’s lifelong work. And I’ll be here to do it with you 🤎love you, friend! I miss our talks :(
@@JesseOnTH-cam I shall!! It means so much to know you're here for me and I love you too! Missing our talks for sure, we gotta start them back up sometime soon!
I love what you said about racism at the end--I actually typed it out so I could keep the quote. In case you want/need it for anything: “I’ve been saying this for a while, but racism is insidious. It is corruptive and it is sneaky. Racism has embedded itself inside of each of us in ways that are impossible to extricate in one night. As you’re doing anti-racist work, you’re going to realize throughout your life like, hey, you’re going to keep finding things within you that are problematic and need to get rooted out. It’s lifelong work. It’s not a race. You gotta think about this in terms of long-haul-so, like, don’t get disheartened because you found I’ve been reviewing these books in a racist way. That’s to be expected. Racism is insidious and it permeates literally everything. To expect it not to color the way that you engage with books by BIPOC folks even if you are a BIPOC person yourself is either ignorance or naivety. Of course it’s going to affect it! Like, of course it is. All you can do is resist the urge to be hurt or get defensive when you found out that racism has embedded itself inside of you, because those feelings only serve white supremacy. Those feelings only serve to keep you from actively doing the work to fix it. Instead, just be glad that you’re seeing it now. Get excited to expel those thoughts the same way that you would be excited about weeding a garden. (Nobody is excited about weeding a garden-except I do like to weed. That’s not the point.)"
I added When No One is Watching to my tbr list. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I always appreciate when I get to learn about my blind spots and get the chance to address them.
I'm not hugely into thriller/horror, and I can't really speak to reseeing books from non scary to scary because my threshold for scary is super, super low. However, I can relate to a book horrifying me and not listed as horror because I doubt anyone else sees it that way. That book is The Chosen One by Carol Lynch Williams. In short, a young teen girl is on the short list to marry her uncle in a polygamist cult. As I'm in an area with a history of polygamy and shitty practices, the book scared the hell out of me because if history had been just a little different, I could have had the same experience. Anyway, thanks for the video and the perspective. :)
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This has probably been one of my favourite videos in a while. Preach to everything you said! On saturday, during my book club session, a guy was talking about how literature by women was not "scary" and not "horror" and I got so pissed off by that that I couldn't even articulate a proper answer. But his standard was of course Stephen King and Lovecraft 🙄🙄🙄🤨🤨🤨. I think I'll just send him this video. Thanks for speaking out on this topic! Love your channel, fellow Mexican booktuber over here🖐🏼. Keep creating great content!
Girl this is a whole sermon! 💗You better preach! 🙌🏾🙌🏾 I love all of the points you make in this video, but as a black queer reader and writer, I honestly try not to let non-black reviewers who only post 1-2 stars with a “it just didn’t work for me” review get to me anymore. This is the reality of the book publishing world and all we can do is write the stories that deserve to be written and support great authors and their stories. I appreciate the call for empathy… but I also can imagine this vital message probably didn’t make it up to their necks, much less their ears….🤷🏾
![White Author Claims Medication Made Her Racist? 🧐 Review bombing, mental health, & publishing [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qM1vg-vurpM/mqdefault.jpg)
![White Author Claims Medication Made Her Racist? 🧐 Review bombing, mental health, & publishing [CC]](/img/tr.png)
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This reminds me of some of the discourse surrounding Children of Blood and Bone when it first came out. Manny white reviewers said it was unoriginal and used the same tired fantasy tropes, then turn around and read fantasy by white authors with those exact same tropes and give them 5 stars. I can't remember if it was you or another booktuber that said it, but holding BIPOC (and especially black) content creators to a standard where they have to go above and beyond when white creators only have to do the bare minimum is ugly and it needs to go.
This this this!!! People are QUICK to call AOC especially black ones “derivative”
We had a list of like 5 books to choose from for English homework and a lot of people in my class chose Children of Blood and Bone. I didn't read it, but I noticed that all of my white friends felt kinda meh about the book, but my non-white friends thought it was amazing, or at least liked the book. I guess I never made that connection until this comment since I never read it.
The epitome of white privilege. They cant see how hypocritical it is to hold black people to a different standard than white people.
I actually just finished Children of Blood and Bone last night/this morning. I think it was a three star read for me. It had too many writing and structuring problems to be truly great, but was still interesting and dynamic enough to be worthwhile. Maybe if I was a BIPOC reader, the joy of seeing characters that I can relate to and and issues that are relevant to me would have been great enough to outweigh those issues. But even for white people who don't feel that way, it feels like overkill to give it one star and act like there's /nothing/ interesting or redeeming about the story
@Jeremy Jones "writing isn't really your people's thing" that's racist.
Some people need to learn that just because a book isn’t written or something isn’t made for them does not mean it’s bad.
Agree
@ Anne Dekker not just "some" people, but many, need to learn this! And not just with books or movies but with all sorts of things and experiences in life.
I approve of this message
"you have to live with strangers that have the ability to end your life with a single phone call".
Just hearing that phrase, I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't call the story behind it a thriller. But then make the main character a person of color...and now it's no longer a thriller?
"Lilith's Brood" was TERRIFYING to me. The notion of a Black woman being genetically altered and bred for the benefit of the human race by these aliens was a straight up horror story for me, even though it's officially classified as sci-fi. I normally let my teenage son read most of my science fiction stories, but this trilogy is going to sit on the shelf for awhile. I feel like Octavia Butler mostly wrote horror, but because there were racialized themes and elements they put her in science fiction or just plain fantasy a lot.
YES! So much tension and horror in MANY of her books, she wrote about and from amazing non-white non-men protagonists.
So much of Butler's work is horror, 100%.
Her short story collection "Bloodchild" was the same for me. It snapped me into attention, made me hyper-aware and those were horror stories for me.
Idk if this sounds dumb, but as gay white cis man, whenever I’m able to realize I’m not fully grasping a book about a minority/POC due to not understanding the circumstances, I try to imagine it being about homophobia instead of racism. Not to invalidate it, but to be like, “holy shit, this could happen to me”, especially in our current political climate in the US. I know people LGBT+ people right now that are begging their families to choose the right candidate so they’ll have less of a chance of their marriage rights being taken away. And people choose the president over them. And it’s all so much worse because POC can’t hide who they are if need be like I can; it’s literally on their faces.
Don’t mean to be long winded, but it just makes me believe that the people that can’t get into minority thrillers are people that aren’t minorities (so basically a straight cis white man) or have a hard time empathizing with them.
I'm a black gay man and I agree with you. We're trained to empathize with the mainstream since their stories are so unavoidable as a reader/viewer but if they wanted to they could probably not read a book with a single minority for the rest of their life and not miss much.
This comment gave me so much to think about it and I completely support you being long winded 🥺😭🤎
noface Personally I feel like the only reason that could be valid is if they’re currently facing a strong problem due to their identity. For example, gays after the Pulse shooting. Clearly that was a big event affecting them in particular. Racism is always going to exist in my opinion, and anyone that doesn’t think that BIPOCs aren’t the most targeted minority in the US right now is delusional.
Back on the topic a bit, I don’t even need to read the BIPOC thrillers I read (still do tho) because every day life for black people seems terrifying enough. I remember after George Floyd was murdered, I was driving to work and thought about how scary it would be to be a black person right then. I could literally be pulled over on my way to work and shot due to racial profiling. Maybe not, but the possibility didn’t look good,. I can’t say the same for myself as a white gay cis man. Like I said, I can hide being a minority if need be because I’m white. That’s when you know it’s a bigger problem. It’s all about checking your privilege.
You dont have to do that. White people come from black people, we are literally black people without melanin. Black people dont have "white features" white people have black features. As per Jane Elliotts words, every human is your 30th to 50th cousin. And in James Baldwins words, who quoted Malcolm X with this: "White is a state of mind. Youre as white as you think you are, as white as you choose to be. its a moral choice. Btw, racism is intersectional, which means LGBT people and women are part of it. By default, being homosexual, you are connected to any story about racism.
SarahGabriella84 idk if it’s because I’m tired and I’m at work but I didn’t get what you were saying “you don’t have to do that” to?
I will say that I don’t necessarily agree with white being a state of mind, at least not completely. Like you can protest and donate and be so very integrated into black culture, but unless you yourself are BIPOC, you’re still just white and still reap *some* of the benefits POC miss out on. This is where the white cis straight man i mentioned is, believing he’s a savior to the minorities and thinking he knows all and can freely judge when he truly has no clue and is just doing the bare minimum, if that. Granted, there’s a big difference between some white people and the degrees that they embrace their own/oppose POC differs.
This conversation needs to be had. What we as BIPOC find scary, disturbing, or frightening and anxiety inducing, is very different than what our White counterparts find horrifying. Our lived experiencs often influence what we find terrifying. Those lived experiences are, of course, based on our gender and/or ethnicity. It's just a simple fact.
it boils my blood whenever people say my sister the serial killer is not a thriller/horror! that book is INCREDIBLE and one of my fav thriller/horrors! thank you for your words on it!
SOMEONE LITERALLY JUST COMMENTED SAYING IT ISNT THRILLER HORROR. First of all, I literally just explained that comedic satire is valid and still counts as part of the genre. Second, the writer lives in Lagos, Nigeria. she is writing thriller/horror from her lens as a non USA person. its problematic as SHIT to impose USA thriller standards on her interpretation of the genre. gross.
noire, I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that you don't expect us to be perfect but you are constantly pointing out ways for us to do better. I've always felt stupid for not automatically knowing other people's struggles in the same way that they experienced it so I didn't even want to acknowledge what I didn't know. Your channel and confidence has motivated me to educate myself more and more. I will forever be thankful
Omg thank you!! I’m very very happy to hear this. It can be so daunting to do this work but it is absolutely necessary that each of us do, even when it’s tough
"I do not measure my soul by the tape of the white world." - Audre Lorde
"you have to live with strangers that have the ability to end your life with a single phone call" .. just hearing you say that conjures feelings and memories that would absolutely be categorized as thriller and horror. this is amazing
“Y’all are tapdancing on my last and final nerve” 😂*snaps fingers*
‘When no one is watching’ is from another level.
I’m glad I continued to read it, even though I read so many horrible reviews about the book.
I'M SO GLAD YOU DID TOO!!!!! ugh i respect your book opinions so highly and I'm really glad we feel the same on this. and lmaoooo its a line from the book and i had to use it.
@@JesseOnTH-cam thats means alot❤️
Whoops...I heard a few more awesome lines where I was like: woeiii she’s on fire, but I always have my audiobooks on high speed😂
I don't understand how anyone can think Get Out isn't scary. That movie was terrifying and haunted me for months after watching it. So many of the books you mention here I've been wanting to read for a while. Honestly, I find that many times, horror/thriller novels written by POC authors hit so much harder
Get Out is sort of a reflection of my biggest fear. I’ve always been afraid of being kidnapped but after watching that movie, being abducted and hypnotized for the benefit of racist white people topped it. In a way, we’re sort of experiencing that today with the constant condoning of culture appropriation and blackfishing but without performing surgeries on Black people. So to hear white People claim it wasn’t scary enough for them frustrates me because they are privileged enough to not experience what us Black people go through on a daily basis.
@@aniyamarie8370 it's not scary like in a traditional ghost, demon way. It's psychologically scary. In fact it's terrifying and left me so paranoid after watching it.
My favorite horror movies are regularly called "not scary". My favorite of all time is The Omen and I realized recently that people just do not think about the implications of the things they watch. One of the fundamental things that makes Get out terrifying is the fear that white people could be experimenting on and oppressing black people in ways we do not even see and then the scene with the police car at the end almost made me want to cry, like. The fact that in The Omen this little kid seems to be so evil is terrifying for a number of reasons 1) it calls into question the idea that evil is taught and not an innate quality and also, how do you get rid of an actual demonic child in any way that doesn't leave you looking like the bad guy? Because of the association of children with innocence Damien (the kid in the film) could do literally anything and the parents or some other adult would still seem like the worst human for killing them. The idea that evil could infect a child is already a fear we hold as people who raise children in our society but the realization that there would be no good way to stop that evil works as a double whammy lol.
I don’t understand how people didn’t feel anxious/terrified for Sydney while reading/listening to When No One is Watching. Even just the Uber drive, the weird shaking at nighttime, everything! Like if you can’t get into the MIND of the MC then what’s the point of reading?!?
Also, in When No One is Watching, people criticized the ending for being unrealistic. Bish who said book endings had to be realistic????? Have u seen Quentin Tarantino? Lmao
Righttt like sooo many thriller endings, or just their plots in general, are unrealistic. Why are you mad now?
Yeah all stories have some element of unrealism, because really the vast majority of us aren't going through our own epic adventure. Also I'm not sure if it's because of me being autistic but i tend to have a high suspension of disbelief, like when people will say "oh i don't buy that this exists/happens/etc." For me i have a higher chance of tolerating them
@@theadora1693 also i think anyone who says the ending is unrealistic is very ignorant about the history of forced and coerced medical experimentation of Black bodies in America. This has been incredibly well documented since slavery. and continues to happen to this very day. its not only ignorant to deny this history and its REALITY for many Black peoples but also racist to deny it. it just...its not ok.
Yes, yes, yes!!!! 💯
I didn't feel anything for Sydney because she was an awful character. She just came off as a horrible and unlikeable person. I also was rooting for the horrendous character that is Theo to get killed off at some point during the book. Had he turned out not to be bulletproof, I would have, in fact, been thrilled, and I could say the author did her job. In fact, the only person I ended up feeling sorry for was Marcus, the apparently evil ex. I fully get why the poor dude ran away before the book even started. The whole thing came off like the author has never met an actual white person in her life, but clearly has a bit of a kink for pink peen going on.
Yeah, this book was horrifying, but for all the wrong reasons.
I haven't read the book yet, but I've always found it so interesting (& disheartening) that some white folks are unable to empathize with or see themselves within in non-white characters. From the description of the book and from what you mentioned in the video, it is clear that the protagonist in When No One is Watching is going through a lot of stress and anxiety - even if you don't have experience with or understand the harm of gentrification, you can still empathize/sympathize with someone in distress, right? This is obviously a problem with works behind the thriller/horror genre, but it always baffled me. Marginalized readers have had to read books for so long without seeing themselves represented in these works, and yet they still are able to find parts of themselves in white-dominated books.
Marginalized readers are always expected to read and comprehend books without themselves represented since childhood/at school, while white kids are never forced to read 100% bipoc syllabus in any given school-year, so it isn't surprising some of them are unable to develop such skills even as adults.
I hadn't heard of many of these books but now I can't wait to read them. I love your reviews - they are so smart and funny and well-produced and your channel has pointed me in new literary directions that are so rewarding! It's frustrating that a concept as simple as "different people have different experiences based on their various identities and thus would have different fears and anxieties" can seem so distant from mainstream criticism, but you break it down so clearly and concisely I hope more people see this. Thank you and keep doing what you do! (noire - couldn't figure out how to work it in...)
🥺🥺shoot this comment made me really happy because I’ve been questioning the quality of my channel and it’s production value. So major major thanks for this confidence boost. I needed it!
@@JesseOnTH-cam Absolutely! I also recently started following your Instagram and it's great - good "story" content, which is hard to pull off (or least I'd imagine it is since most accounts don't, and I certainly don't know how to use it properly lol). Anyway, yes, you are definitely a high quality TH-cam/Instagram follow. Can't wait to keep watching!
"White people do not get to define the genre of fear" brilliantly stated! 👏👏
I have noticed this with The Year of the Witching especially because it's constantly shelved in general fiction EVEN THO it literally states in the synopsis it's a fantasy debut and I heard it's blended with horror as well. It's incredibly frustrating. This is a huge problem, At least at my local bookstore, because it makes finding the books i want to read that much harder!! I had to search high and low for Mexican Gothic and any tananarive due!
Why on earth would it be shelved as general fiction?! That is ridiculous. It is shelved as fantasy at my local book store in eastern Canada.
I read a series of Tweets by Silvia Moreno Garcia about how reviewers and distributors should properly categorize Mexican Gothic as horror fiction...very next day I saw it in general fiction at a local bookstore. 🙄
I cannot wait to read When No One Is Watching. I'm so over white reviewers- this conversation is so much needed.
I do not know if this counts, but I recently watched "Little Fires Everywhere" and I consider that horror. The amount of anxiety and "benevolent" racism that the white family exhibits towards Kerry Washington's character and her daughter was almost anxiety inducing and the struggle that the asian mother had to go through in getting back her child and the possibility of having the adopted child become a self-hating, white supremacist Asian American hit me hard. Even though I am not adopted, I grew up in a white dominated neighborhood and was very isolated emotionally, I cannot imagine living with an adopted white parents who only use your culture as props to celebrate your heritage. Also spoiler alert, but when the asian mother took back her baby in the end, I was legitimately scared for her fate since once she is found out, then should have the threat of being deported back because of her race and socioeconomic status. I have had some deportation threats aimed at me around 2016 (I still do not know if it was being perceived as Asian or Central American, as I have been mistaken as Central American by other Latinos), but those 2 threats that I got still emotionally affect me now.
How anyone can say that My Sister The Serial Killer isn't a thriller/horror or suspenseful astounds me... That book was I N C R E D I B L E
Also people who don't realise the fear and anxiety that comes with gentrification, really...
Some people are just... 🙄
Amazing video as always Jesse (I'm on a big catchup of your videos) 💕💕💕
(noire)
I love you Em🥺😭🤎
My Sister the Serial Killer was amazing. I felt this sinking sense of dread as it ended.
Get Out is easily the best thriller movie I've ever seen. So tense!
Also you're really making me want to read When No One Is Watching... Looks like a 6 month wait for the copy from my library. 😭
When I was reading When No One Is Watching, I was so on edge and even paused to be like "how are people not finding this thrilling???" And you discussed this so well and I appreciate this so much. I obviously won't experience this book on the same level as a Black person or a person of color, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge how terrifying this book was and feel the anxiety that it builds.
I've honestly been so confused at how many people have said the book 'feels more like a contemporary' to them. Like... how do you not notice all the extremely suspicious shit that is happening and Sydney's building anxiety and fear?
THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!
After you talked about this in the gc I went and looked for reviews and i almost shut down the internet. I've lived in an area that's 99% white my whole life, been one of the few Black people in my life, and I was so anxious reading When No One Is Watching. When I was dating my ex I was constantly on edge because he would drop in comments about how I was "too much", so I toned down literally everything about me. Reading that reminded me of that feeling. FUCKING TERRIFYING. One of the scariest books I've ever read, and Get Out freaked me out more than any movie ever. I was surrounded by white people when I saw that movie👀
I cried reading it too. That book fucked me up to my core.
Nooiiirrreee! NOT HANNIBAL I'M DONE 😂
I CRIED TOO omg we need to discuss this book together omg
Every single word in this i feel completely
LMAO
I’ve been really wanting to read When No One Is Watching, and I am really thankful that I’m seeing this video first. Now I can be more mindful as I read. Thank you for speaking on this important topic.
I just recently read The Ballad of Black Tom, and while it is a Lovecraftian horror, I found the racism and the violence against black people was the more terrifying element and made it a much more effective horror than if it had been a white Lovecraft retelling.
THAT’S ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS OMG!!!! 😍😍
I'm scared of loose roof titles and squeaky floors so I'm not the best reader for any type of thriller. My anxiety couldn't take them.
The way you described that book sounds TERRIFYING. It's ridiculous that people would question it's place in the genre. I typically don't read thriller books, but you got me to add this one to my tbr. Thank you for the call in 💜
Oh my gosh. I do the same thing when I'm upset. Usually it's when I'm nervous or uncomfortable; I'll just start smiling. It's so inappropriate and I feel terrible about it but I just can't stop because it's how I respond to things that are difficult. And I never even thought about the connection of that to how I was raised by it makes *so much sense*.
I always appreciate how you tie in social commentary in the book community. ❤️
Thank you for sharing your feelings about this. When No One Is Watching terrified me too. I was terrified for Sydney, her mother, her neighbors. It is absolutely a THRILLER!
This was a thought provoking video. I tend to dislike thrillers, but I loved The Death of Vivek Oji. For me (a white cis woman), this book had me in tears but not necessarily on the edge of my seat. Your perspective helped me to see that I was filtering my feelings about the book through a privileged lens without realizing it. Thank you.
whoever didn't find When No One Is Watching scary must have zoned out for the entirety of the book....parts of that book were just s t r e s s f u l
The short story collection Her Body and Other Parties is some quality horror/gothic fiction! The Diviners is also pretty creepy at times...
Stressful is perfect to describe that book
Also omg loveeeeee HBAOP!!!!
Haven’t read the diviners series! Do u think I would enjoy it?
@@JesseOnTH-cam same here to HBAOP!!! Did you have a favorite story?? my cousin and I read it at the same time and the story she liked least wound up being the one I liked most lol (Especially Heinous)
@@JesseOnTH-cam hmmm if you like supernatural mysteries with a large cast of characters set in the 1920s, I think so? Ah but at the same time maybe I shouldn't be recommending this series until i go back and re-read the first book, read the last one in the series most recently and found it kind of annoying 😅 have memories of the first one being good though...
I’m so glad you shared this video because I thought I was hallucinating when I would read reviews written by white readers about the work of BIPOC authors.
For example, there were a lot of white readers giving Internment by Samira Ahmed 3 stars and below for ridiculous reasons. Some were talking about how the 17-year old MC acts too much like a teenager instead of a girl trying to save her people; others said she was trying too hard to save her people. Meanwhile, Muslim readers gave the book either 4 or 5 stars because that book was a reflection of their fears. Some of them claimed they’ve never had that hard of a life but they still loved it nonetheless because they knew they could wind up just like the MC and others like her.
This is a fantastic point, Niya🤎
Let them know Jesse! This is an ongoing frustration that I have when it comes to reviews of books by non-white authors. On TH-cam and Goodreads you’ll find that the top reviews are from white reviewers who’ve missed the cultural/historical context of the book. Books by authors of color are measured against an outdated or arbitrary standard and it’s frustrating. Noire
Ugh so many of these books have such frustratingly ignorant Goodreads reviews IT’S NOT FAIR
YES TO ALL OF THIS!!! so happy you made this video 🖤🖤
I just read this book and this is my first review I'm watching and I am SHOCKED that people are saying it wasn't scary throughout the book! I was on the edge of my seat for so much of it.
I just got to the point where you said white ppl thought get out wasn't scary 😳 I was like traumatized by this movie.
Our society progresses at a snails pace.
I definitely felt this topic !! It’s so freaking true. When Get Out came out my white friends said that it wasn’t scary and I was like it terrified me 🤷🏾♀️ you just don’t experience the same stuff I do
I just realized that I also do that smiling thing when I'm upset. Like no lie, I'll be in therapy smiling the whole time as I talk about some really upsetting shit like what the fuuuuck. Also I love that you talked about this because I remember the ignorance from some people's mouths for saying that "Get Out" wasn't scary. Everything from the plot, to the music, to the camera work, the acting, the sound editing of the white lady tapping her tea cup, ALL of that added to "Get Out" being a very well done, horror or thriller.
Also noir.
yes yes yes!
I‘ve never read a thriller in my life and therefore didn‘t know much about the books you were talking about and I still found it so enlightening, informative and important. Great discussion!
Man when you said "you don't get to judge our work by your white parameters", as a white man that really struck me. I absolutely loved this video!
thank you!
so happy you made this video, when no one is watching deserves ALL THE HYPE it's SO WELL DONE
I LOVE all the BIPOC thrillers you mentioned!!! Brilliant video and topic. Let people be uncomfortable. This is an important issue. Sending good vibes.
TY TY TY
I recently finished Tiffany D. Jackson's most recent novel, Grown. And despite the fact that I am not black I deeply connected to the main character Enchanted and was absolutely on the edge of my seat the whole book. There is so much depth and reliability to her character. The fact some people will stop trying to understand a character at the color of their skin is so baffling to me.
I’m so so glad you connected to her. I can’t wait to read it!
Thank you for this video! Im currently reading my sister the serial killer, and I am LOVING it. I thought that I wasn't going to because I had hear so many people say its over hyped ... but yeah I love the satire.
Thank you for saying all of this! It's *so frustrating* to hear (mainly white) reviewers say that BIPOC thrillers and horror novels aren't X (scary, thrilling, etc). I saw this so much with reviewers who said that they just didn't find Stephen Graham Jones's The Only Good Indians scary or "not understandable" so they didn't like it...but then turn around and praise books that blatantly misrepresent Indigneous peoples (looking at you, Stephen King). Like, google is free if you don't understand something. Or, like you mentioned: read other books by BIPOC authors. *sighs deeply* Great video!
i haven't read the only good indians but i'm already annoyed at how white reviewers have been discussing it. i'm planning on reading it next month and i'm so excited
@@JesseOnTH-cam Yay! I hope you like it; it's *so good*
Noire! I hear no lies. What's scary/thrilling feels like such a subjective thing and clearly people are forgetting to look outside of what's scary to them specifically. :/
Those earrings tho!
I know that this isn’t about books but.. May I just say that I love your bow tie, and your earrings?! Like seriously! Fabulous! Great video though!!
omg thank you for this confidence boost Maggie!
Spreading all the positivity I can! 🤣❤️❤️
this was very insightful and definitely has given me some critique to chew on.
I only this year realized that I have no clue what horror is. I think horror is constantly sold as this gory, constant action type genre, when it can be anything that shocks, disgusts, or scares on ANY level and for different people (obviously, who has the same fears and levels of shock? no one)
"i can't connect [with characters]" =/= "this is a bad book" and people have such a hard time realizing that.
also, noire 🧡
You get me🤎🤎🤎🤎 Thank you for this amazing comment
I saw a lot of people talking badly about When No One Was Watching and saying it didnt do what it meant to. Glad to see your video after seeing all the bad reviews of it because I feel like I've seen a lot of hate on it.
(side note lol I had to ask a friend who had read it and loved it if Sydney lived so I could read it and not be worried. I always get so scared if a character and I share a name!). Noire 🎃
i was actively scared for her life for most of the book. most thriller books don't let me feel that kind of fear for the protagonist. Cole killed it.
Thank you so much for pointing this out! I recently read and loooved My Sister, the Serial Killer, but I did find myself thinking that thriller wasn't the right category for it, even though I was pretty anxious and totally hooked the entire book. It really shows how I have come to think of thrillers always having to have shocking plot twists like Gone Girl. They really aren't necessary to make a story scary, they've just been so popularized.
noire🕸️
Yesss! Im glad this made sense
If you are not scared by a book personally, that does not mean that you can write it off as a thriller/horror. I don't find many Stephen King horror novels scary, but I still acknowledge that it's a thriller. Put that same respect onto BIPOC authors and stories as well! Thanks for this discussion, I was unaware that this was an issue, and I think it's great that you did this video, no matter how nervous you were :)
This was such an interesting conversation. I also find that this even happens across other genres where own voices BIPOC authors write about their own experiences. I've noticed that some white people will project what they think is "right" on these types of books and critique a book that way based on its representation.
Thissss
Noire! 🥰 hella appreciate this and ALL of your videos ❤️
😭😭😭😭💕💕💕THANK YOU JUAN
I’m so thankful for these authors because they widened the concept of thrillers I do not in general like to read thrillers but When no one is watching made me want to give thrillers a second chance.
One of my favorite classes I took in college was called Postcolonial Crime Fiction and it really helped me to see horror and thriller from non-commercial, non-white, and non-American perspectives. This video reminded me of all the amazing books we read, and I would especially recommend Moth Smoke by Mohsin Hamid, Frankenstein in Baghdad by Ahmed Saadawi, and The Interpreter by Suki Kim. I’ve been meaning to read My Sister, the Serial Killer and now I’ll be sure to add When No One is Watching to my order. Thank you so much for the amazing video! (Noire)
idk if its written noir or noire anyways!! loved the new intro!! and im thankful you made this video its an important topic to talk about i cant stand when someone rates a book bad just bc they couldnt relate to it i understand it happens but if so dont give it a rating /:
When you talked about people telling you to smile, I felt that in my BONES! I do the same thing now too! I am starting When No One Is Watching this week and I am so excited to read it! (Noire)
I didn’t even know that (white) people didn’t consider When No One is Watching a thriller 🤦♀️ That makes no sense whatsoever. The ending wasn’t my favourite (a personal preference for pacing), but the book was terrifying and so unique!
Also when you spoke about how when you’re mad and incensed that you laugh/grin through the anger, it totally reminded me of Maya Angelou’s performance of “We Wear the Mask”❤
This is so spot on! And I've noticed the reviews with when no one is watching which is a book I've been scared to pick up because I know it'll be horrifying for me *noire*
Noire💀Thank you so much for making this video Jesse❤️ I personally have never been interested in the thriller genre bc I didn’t really know anything about its broad spectrum and thought they were all like Stephen King commercial thrillers but after hearing you talk about what possibilities thrillers can have, I am much more interested in the genre and will be sure to make BIPOC thrillers a priority. You also have completely convinced me to want to read When No One is Watching and in another video of yours I recently watched I added two others to my TBR. A book I read earlier this year, The Underground Railroad by Colson Whitehead, was so incredible and thought provoking and I had considered it (alternate) historical fiction which it is but I 100% think it’s a thriller too because it was so terrifying and anxiety filling in the way it portrayed America’s horrifying racist history.🖤
I just finished When No One Is Watching last night and I'm baffled as to how anyone could say it, "wasn't scary enough"
My heart was in my throat for the last like, 150 pages? The unease hit me barely 20 pages in. Like, okay maybe the atmosphere didn't hit some people sure whatever. But, that ending bit?! That was intense and HORRIFYING. When they found that hallway, being vague to avoid spoilers, I was aching inside at what was being described. This book was so, so scary. I'm really glad I rewatched this video because I have Vivek Oji from the library but I guess from the title I was expecting literary fiction, but I'm way stoked that it's a thriller.
Do not feel scared to say this, it needs to be heard by us all!!! Noire 🕷
NOIRE. As always, you’ve been super balanced and clear when you’ve talked about this and I’m really glad you brought it up. And no one is excited to weed their garden but it always feels good once it’s done! I’m also OBSESSED with your earrings! Thanks for sharing your thoughts 💛
THANK YOU VICTORIA
Noire. I'm new to booktube (started watching June 2020) so I haven't read or heard conversations about thrillers before. You and Starlah convinced me to read The Death of Vivek Oji and I loved it! I've put When No One Is Watching on hold. I've never been into jump scares or scaring just to be scared, but the nuance in the definition of thriller you used convinced me to try thrillers by bipoc authors. Noire.
!!!! Omg. This makes me happy 😃
Thank you for making this video! Even though I don’t read a ton of thrillers I am looking forward to pushing myself to notice this issue in other genres I read more often. Noire 🦇PS I love the earrings 😍
Same I don't read thllier
Starting When No One is Watching this morning! I’m so happy I watched this first. We need to continue to educate ourselves and it allows for me to go into with a different perspective. Thank you for your videos!
Absolutely brilliant video. So many great points!
Thank you for making this. I have so much to think about now. The next book I read is going to be When No One Is Watching. I try to be aware of these issues and self aware of my privileged perspective, but this issue had never occurred to me. I'm so glad I watched this.
this video came to you in perfect time
THANK YOU!!! I thought When No One is Watching was incredibly disturbing because it so closely mirrors reality. Also, it drives me crazy when people do this with horror saying something isn't horror because they didn't find it to be scary enough. Noire
Yessss
This is a super important beginning to a conversation on who gets to define a genre and the reminder to bring anti-racist work to all parts of our lives, et noire 🐮
SUCH A GOOD DISCUSSION! Every time you amaze me with your articulation and I love all the ways in which you discuss it. With so much strength but also empathy and I just love you. It's not a genre I've delved into much but when I do I can be wary of this trap. Like you said, it's about constantly working and checking yourself forever. Also: I smile and giggle when I'm livid or uncomfortable as well, it's annoying. I've not really thought about it but you're right, I've been told to smile my whole life, especially in hospitality. It's ingrained in me and its pretty sick really. Thanks for all you do and never stop discussing real topics ❤
This whole comment 🤎🤎 thank you
@@JesseOnTH-cam ☝😭❤
thank you so much for pointing this out. i never realized how i describe thrillers and horror by bipoc and i was just saying i wish i had more. i can't believe how critical i've been when i'm viet-chinese myself ugh. thank you so much again and thank you for being so understanding about how insidious racism is. love you and i'm definitely gonna unlearn how i see thrillers.
"White people don't get to define fear." This was so brilliant! Thank you for bringing all of this up and talking it through. Noire!
This was such a great video ! I've been thinking about this a lot with the release of Mexican Gothic and people not calling it horror. I haven't read it or any other thriller/horror novels bc I'm easily scared and I already don't have a sleep schedule so I don't need anything helping my lack of sleep lol. But I'd be willing to bet that there are other slow moving haunted house stories written by white people that are always referred to as horror. I also think publishing and marketing need to do better, as they often determine what exactly the general public will perceive a book as, and they need to officially classify and mention that books by BIPOC are actually thrillers/horror if they are those genres.
(Noire! Sorry this comment ended up being so long)
I don't typically read thrillers, but you made When No One is Watching sound absolutely terrifying and absolutely incredible, so I've added it to my tbr. As a white man, I can't relate to that fear of gentrification, but I feel like if the book is well-written, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to get myself into the mind of the protagonist and experience her fear. Perhaps it's because I'm gay, and have spent years of my life relating to straight protagonists, but I've never understood it when people say they can't relate to minority characters. Any book should be able to make you empathise with the character, no matter if you share their identity or not. I've read books with elements of racism that terrified me and made me feel sick. So if an author is going to take that fear and weaponise it as the main theme of the novel, I see no reason why that shouldn't be absolutely horrifying.
Noir.
EDIT: Just realised how much this makes me seem like an "I'm not racist" comment, which is absolutely not what it is intended to be. I by no means give myself a "get out of racism free" card, and fully understand that racism is an action, not just a belief, and that all white people are socialised with some level of racist ideas.
no i hear you and what you're saying. You're good
Loved the ending when you talked about anti racism being long term work and realising it and moving forward - it’s always good to instill hope when there’s a realisation like this
This is a really important video and topic, thanks for making it ❤️
thank you Delia!
Noire! Omg I definitely need to expand my reading taste to thrillers after watching this. You gave me a semblance of hope for them. Most often when people talked about thrillers they talked about those white domestic ones and they are just...never interesting. Periodt. Often times, their synopses would be about an affair where the other woman is "crazy", a mental institute (whether it's the protag's final resting place or the story's setting), or stalking of some kind. And they never go anywhere else with it. So I definitely need to read No One Else is Watching and all the other ones listed in the video especially for this season 😭
*Noire* I'm so glad you spoke about about this. I live in an environment that would not ask me to hold myself accountable like that and now I have another thing to know to be mindful of when I toss my opinion out into the void.
Thank you for this video! I read "When No One is Watching" and it was scary. As a Black woman I can relate to the protagonist from the first page to the very end. I was so scared for Sydney when her life was in danger, and I felt her stress, anxiety, and lack of sleep because of it. Here's the word of the day: Noire. Thank you again for this, and keep it up!
Had to come back to this video after reading When No One Is Watching and it was so tense FROM THE BEGINNING. These people don't know what they're talking about.
Also super informative, so thank you for the recommendation.
I am so glad you feel the same. It’s like some ppl are reading an entirely different book haha
Noire......Thanks for talking about this. I am a biracial woman who identifies as black and I have also experienced hearing people talk about BIPOC books as not having good substance. And videos like this help people move along that path to learning.
Noir.
I'm old (ha!) and I remember when Beloved came out. Oprah loved it, so I hunted it down. I loved gothic horror and it felt like that, where the horror is in the thought that these things were possible, that sadness, fear, and anger haunt us.
And then people hated the movie. It gave me nightmares, but my friends fell asleep watching it.
Thank you for the list of books to try. When No One is Watching in particular sounds amazing.
NOIRE!!! 🧛🏾♀️THIS WAS EV👏🏾ERY👏🏾THING!! I APPLAUDE YOU!!! The book had me shook to my core. ANXIETY ON 10 MILLION the entire book! Thank u for this video! 🙌🏾💗
Oyinkan Braithwaite's thriller was in my top ten for this year!!! Such a brilliant novel. So many levels. I really connected with the idea that she was so affected by childhood trauma that it affected her actions as an adult. The satire was a way of making the reader feel uncomfortable.
I don't read Thrillers in general. So I wasn't able to follow a lot of this, having not read most of the books. But I do think you speaking out on what is anxiety inducing to BIPOC people is important. I appreciate you speaking up. And the higher bar for BIPOC authors and the gatekeeping is SUPER GROSS. While I still won't read this genre, I will try to pay more attention when reading other books when there are more layers than I'm seeing. And of course for you: Noire
thank you Dawn
Great video! I just started watching booktube videos, and I am so happy I found your channel. Thank you for saying what needed to be said. ☠️
Ty!
I read My sister the serial killer and thought it was more a literary novel than a thriller. Now I want to see the thriller aspects in it. Although, writing literary fiction also isn’t something to be ashamed of.
🔪🪓⚰️
I just finished reading When No One Is Watching and I cannotttt with how good it was fuqqqq🙌🏽🤩😭
Wasn’t it amazing?!
@@JesseOnTH-cam It really fuckin was!!! 😵
I finished "When No One is Watching" last night and had to come back and rewatch this to say that I agree with everything you say. I think people view thrillers as things that are only scary or thrilling for them and that's not fair at all. That is like someone saying "Gone Girl" isn't a thriller because they don't identify with it. And while I sure as heck don't, since if I 'go missing' there's not going to be a nationwide search for me since most people won't give a funk, I wouldn't say it's not a thriller. And I was under the impression that My Sister the Serial Killer was advertised as thriller and not horror but I have also slept and drank since it came out so I could be wrong. I did get the satire in it though and can't see how anyone would have missed that.
i think it was advertised as a thriller to be honest! I personally assert that its a horror book. Also its important to consider that since the author is Nigerian, the book may reflect on how Nigerians write thrillers/horror and we should all (those of us who don't live in Lagos where the book is set) should be mindful of that
@@JesseOnTH-cam that is very true!
Just from reading the title I felt called out by this because I know that I do this. I am trying to read more POC books and my favorite genre is thrillers which is where the disconnect comes in for me. The way society markets POC books and stories in general is not a way that appeals to me and I am beginning to realize that it's not the content that I am anticipating because I haven't read many thrillers about or by POC authors, its that I have let whites define what is scary and what is a thriller for me and realizing is not even the first step, I have to step out of the comfort zone I've build with this false knowledge and define for myself what a thriller is however hard that might be. Thank you for this call out, that ended up being more of a call in for the people that do this. Will be putting No One Is Watching on my October tbr as the first step for this.
Omg you’re the best, Bin. Pls hmu if you want to talk about it, I’m always always here for you!!!! It can be so so tough to unpack and become aware of all the ways white people have defined US and to learn how to resist. So don’t be hard on yourself. It’s lifelong work. And I’ll be here to do it with you 🤎love you, friend! I miss our talks :(
@@JesseOnTH-cam I shall!! It means so much to know you're here for me and I love you too! Missing our talks for sure, we gotta start them back up sometime soon!
LIVING FOR THIS. Noire 🎃
And the creepy addition to your intro and outro!!!!!!!!! I am loving!
I LOVE YOU SYDNEY!
I love what you said about racism at the end--I actually typed it out so I could keep the quote. In case you want/need it for anything:
“I’ve been saying this for a while, but racism is insidious. It is corruptive and it is sneaky. Racism has embedded itself inside of each of us in ways that are impossible to extricate in one night. As you’re doing anti-racist work, you’re going to realize throughout your life like, hey, you’re going to keep finding things within you that are problematic and need to get rooted out. It’s lifelong work. It’s not a race. You gotta think about this in terms of long-haul-so, like, don’t get disheartened because you found I’ve been reviewing these books in a racist way. That’s to be expected. Racism is insidious and it permeates literally everything. To expect it not to color the way that you engage with books by BIPOC folks even if you are a BIPOC person yourself is either ignorance or naivety. Of course it’s going to affect it! Like, of course it is. All you can do is resist the urge to be hurt or get defensive when you found out that racism has embedded itself inside of you, because those feelings only serve white supremacy. Those feelings only serve to keep you from actively doing the work to fix it. Instead, just be glad that you’re seeing it now. Get excited to expel those thoughts the same way that you would be excited about weeding a garden. (Nobody is excited about weeding a garden-except I do like to weed. That’s not the point.)"
🥺🥺🥺🥺💖💖💖
Noire! Once again I’m stunned by your intelligence and the way you’re able to discuss such important topics, truly inspiring honestly
I added When No One is Watching to my tbr list. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I always appreciate when I get to learn about my blind spots and get the chance to address them.
Thank you! I haven't read When No On Was Watching yet, but the reviews have not made sense to me. The promo information is terrifying by itself.
I'm not hugely into thriller/horror, and I can't really speak to reseeing books from non scary to scary because my threshold for scary is super, super low. However, I can relate to a book horrifying me and not listed as horror because I doubt anyone else sees it that way. That book is The Chosen One by Carol Lynch Williams. In short, a young teen girl is on the short list to marry her uncle in a polygamist cult. As I'm in an area with a history of polygamy and shitty practices, the book scared the hell out of me because if history had been just a little different, I could have had the same experience. Anyway, thanks for the video and the perspective. :)
This has probably been one of my favourite videos in a while. Preach to everything you said! On saturday, during my book club session, a guy was talking about how literature by women was not "scary" and not "horror" and I got so pissed off by that that I couldn't even articulate a proper answer. But his standard was of course Stephen King and Lovecraft 🙄🙄🙄🤨🤨🤨. I think I'll just send him this video. Thanks for speaking out on this topic! Love your channel, fellow Mexican booktuber over here🖐🏼. Keep creating great content!
big hugs!!!! tysm!!!
Girl this is a whole sermon! 💗You better preach! 🙌🏾🙌🏾 I love all of the points you make in this video, but as a black queer reader and writer, I honestly try not to let non-black reviewers who only post 1-2 stars with a “it just didn’t work for me” review get to me anymore. This is the reality of the book publishing world and all we can do is write the stories that deserve to be written and support great authors and their stories. I appreciate the call for empathy… but I also can imagine this vital message probably didn’t make it up to their necks, much less their ears….🤷🏾