Nice John. After teaching courses on Guitar Repair and Design for 22 years, up here in Canada; I can see why you have been so successful as a teacher. Well-paced lesson. Ignore the trolls .... Good job ! Congrats . MMcC
My question is how long would it take him to do what he did in the video if he wasn't making a video? I understand why he made the video, but if he were alone working on this guitar, would it be 30-minutes setup...longer? Shorter? Seems very complicated and as much an art as it is a science!
John LeVan explaining the techniques and method used to first 'mark-out' then file the saddle by hand to make it possible to set the intonation. Now you can tune your acoustic guitar. Priceless. Best explanation of this important component of a guitar.
I worked on guitars for 17 years in a music shop and there is info on here I never knew. Checked the intonation on my 1974 Martin D-18 and it's sharp in exactly where this video said it would be: low E and B. Can't wait to fix this! I'll just bear in mind the advice I got from an old friend who did trim work in houses. He told me you have to have the mind of a turtle to do what he does. Some things just can't be rushed! John obviously has the mind of a turtle, and that's a good thing for working on instruments.
Great video and walk through. I've had John work on 4 of my guitars so far, and bar none, he's the best Guitar Tech I've ever met. Truly a student of his craft. For anyone who's local to Nashville, he's relocated his shop to Thompson Station. Great guy, and amazing expertise.
Thanks for this! It's the best and most-thorough exposition on this subject I've ever seen. Also, Mr LeVan's clearly a natural teacher who's clearly mastered his craft to the point at which it's an art. Please continue to draw from his vast experience and knowledge in the future!
I've been doing this sort of work for decades. I still learnt a few things from your video but have a few suggestions/reservations: 1.Taking a measurement of the nut height (height of string over the 1st fret) with the action at the 12th fret way out of whack is going to give a compromised reading for the nut height. You took the action at the nut out of the picture by using a capo at the 1st. Why not take the action at the 12th out of the picture when measuring at the first, esp when you have already established that the treble action is very high? 2. You didn't appear to check the neck relief under the e1 string. Ideally you want a touch more relief for the bass strings when compared to the treble, but most guitars seem to develop a touch more under the treble strings. This can sometimes be compensated for, for instance if you need to dress a little wear out of the first few frets for the treble strings. 3. I prefer to establish the correct curve along the saddle top by checking the action right across all 6 strings rather than by using a radius gauge. Because the string spread is getting wider as you approach the bridge the radius of the saddle top should be set a little flatter than the measured radius at the 12th fret. With many guitars, especially if moulded with extra compensation at the B string the action will jump at least a full 1/64" from the e1 to the b. This will make the b string very stiff to fret and will increase the tendency of the b to intonate sharp at the 12th. The b should only increase in height by half a 64th at most. 4. I don't see a great deal of value in checking intonation with old strings and a very compromised action height. I prefer to use a metre rule to physically check the saddle position to make sure it is in the right position. The correct saddle position and shaping for intonation is quite predictable and can be shaped very close once the desired action height is established. Then it can be tweaked to get it spot on. Finally, 5. I always like to check the nut position as part of the original set-up. Ideally, for a steel string, the nut should be .5mm closer to the first fret than the scale/fret rule indicates. This provides some compensation against the strings reading sharp at the first one or 2 frets because of the extra stretching of the string to fret them in those first positions. If the guitar is a little shy of the desired compensation at the 12th fret then a correction of the nut position (if it has no nut compensation) can help correct the octave without moving the saddle at all. I offer these comments, not as criticism, but in the spirit of sharing knowledge and experience. Best wishes from Australia, Robin Moyes.
Thank you for this, I have no idea how Americans deal with imperial! Imperial: 6 83rds to the 22nd of a inch, what you want is 9 43rds to the 88th instead. Metric: you want 2.2mm instead of 2.8
I wish they would have showed "the fine tuning" of the saddle, on how to correct for intonation. If the fretted 12th is sharp, do what? If the the fretted 12th is flat, do what? That is an important step IMO.
@@griffox I should have explained myself better as I was referring to whether or not the string sounded sharp at the 12th fret as compared to playing the same string in the open position . This is how most people determine whether or not a guitar is intonated properly , although in reality there are other factors and this is not always the case as there could still be problems with "sharping" , or the string playing sharp when the same string is depressed at the first fret even if the note at the open nut and the depressed twelfth fret are the same ( only one octave higher at # 12 fret ) . So lets say we are talking about the B-string. If you tune the B string to a b note when it is open , and then get a sharper note ( more than an octave above the open position ) when you depress the string at the twelfth fret , ( providing of course your action is not too high ) then you would need to lengthen the string by beveling the nut side of the saddle away from the nut towards the bridge pins , in essence lengthening the string .If you look closely at the saddle of most guitars nowadays they come pre adjusted to get an idea what I mean .
@@1allstarman I get that. I know what intonation is on a guitar. And I understand how to fix a sharp note at the 12th fret. The question asked was what if it's flat. My point was that if you've taken too much off and the 12th fret is flat you need to shorten the string, but you can't add the amount you sanded off back. My comment about starting over was more of a joke.
High action might mean your truss rod needs adjusting, or that the strings sit too high in the nut, or that the saddle is too high ... or a combination of all three. A professional tech can identify where the problem is and deal with it. Once the action is right and the guitar plays the way you want it, then you can intonate the saddle. Intonation is really the final step in the setup process. Hope this helps! -- PG staff
He's really thorough, isn't he? But there are quite a few who go to all the same extremes, because it's the best way to ensure consistently-accurate results. Of course, it depends a lot on the instrument and it's intended use, and you may not need to be this exacting if your guitar's action is in rough shape and you just want to make it a bit better & save some bucks by doing it yourself. This video can be a handy reference for you, to gauge the extent the of the accuracy that your own needs call for.
If that were my guitar, and having watched this video, I would be so super pleased with the attention to detail you have given it. And also, even though I am not interested in doing the work myself, I have learned a lot as when my guitars may need work and what needs to be done.
Finally, a thorough step-by-step guide to setup an acoustic guitar. Thanks for posting! For those who want to follow written instructions you can find it at in the April 2012 edition of Premier Guitar for free on their website. Click 'Digital Edition' and find the article "DIY: Setting Acoustic Intonation".
Watched this a few years ago and I gotta say, that trick of pushing the string in fist to pull the pins works brilliantly! Never had to use any sort of tools to pull my pins and it keeps my bridge free from marring. Just started watching again as I need to adjust the action and possibly intonation now.
Andy, you're using a Ryobi Tec 4 power screwdriver! I have been telling other techs and luthiers about the Tec 4 for years. I had two on my benches for 3 years now. Best rechargeable, clutched string winder I've found. Kudos!
I WANT THAT GIANT MAGNIFYING GLASS!!! Will definitely make this type of work easier. Great video!! Especially shaping the saddle.I would have appreciated his giving us what measurements where he said "This is perfect and doesn't need anything" and left it at that. One more thing, when he gives his ideal measurements at the 12th fret, remember, this is NOT for every type of guitar or player. This is for a Taylor 914 (the last digit, 4, indicates a "Grand Concert", which is a nice compromise between a Concert and Dreadnaught. His measurements indicate to me this is probably for a fingerstyle player. Someone strumming rhythm on a Dreadnaught would definitely want higher action at the 12th fret. I actually like that little bit of buzz, but not everyone does. Most companies give a starting point for the important numbers, but then you must make changes to reflect your style. And you will often go back and forth between the nut and saddle!! So if you plan to bring the saddle down a lot, and you are also making a new nut, don't go too low, especially on those old Japanese imports that sound really good, but wind up needing a neck reset or the bridge lifts, and since the used epoxy, most of us live with a little high action rather than kill ourselves or our tech trying to get the damn thing off!! Thanks for the great video!!! John Levan also has a good setup book out from a few years ago, Guitar Setup, Maintenance, & Repair, (Mel Bay). Goes well with the Dan Erlewine book, The Guitar Player Repair Guide. If you have never done these things, grab some cheap yard sale guitars!!!! Broken or working....doesn't matter!! Especially for fret work....get anything to get used to doing it. I screwed up a really good guitar, snd had to have my repair guy fix what should have been a cheap job!!! (fretwork)....So if you have a GREAT guitar, don't jump into repair on that one!!!
This is a cool video. I had no idea how much hand-working was involved in setting up my acoustic. It's always good to watch a pro who has done it for years.
If you have a a Chinese guitar copy or any cheap guitar and you want to set up the intonation a 1st step as a rough in is to measure from the Nut to the 12 fret for example say its 12.5 inch. Then measure 12.5 to your NEW BLANK NUT an MARK IT Right there. I have done tons of intonations this way and it usually is pretty on the mark fora start. Then you can fine tune it with the strings at tension. Note use NEW strings guys. If you are setting up a guitar I find it best to use what you are going to put on the guitar. This goes for Acoustic, Electric, Bass, Cello, Violin. John LeVan is amazing and his video here is exceptional. I just wanted to add a few extra points to help you ROUGH IN with accuracy. Cheers Patrick
I have a Mitchell MD100, I managed to get the knut, action, and neck adjusted, but the D is still flat, I tried sanding off the back of the bridge some, so far no luck. I did manage to get the G in perfect intonation doing the same thing.
Excellent work and presentation !!! I own 6 Greek bouzouki that was all special order hand made , each cost me about $ 3000 to $ 5000 dollars !!! And I watch two luthiers how they build them up ....and I know and understand how they work on the instruments and how they work up to last detail...to give to the instruments all the PERSONAL CARE NEEDED !!!
This is one of the best videos on guitar setup. There are other videos out there by guys calling themselves luthiers, offering terrible advice on guitar setup.. They're idiots, not luthiers.
This is one of the best videos Ive seen on the subject so far! Thanks for the clear explanations, good camera work and decent lighting! BTW~ Every Taylor I have encountered was not set up right, I wish you had strummed a few chords with her all dialed in, or maybe even a before/after, I suspect lowering the action might decrease volume, but correct intonation would really open the voice! Bravo!
At the end he mentions having to move intonation back a bit for several strings. But with the 12th fret action all ready at 4/64ths and 5/64ths, that will drop action lower and you risk lowering to the point of buzzing and or getting certain string heights too low at bridge. I am thinking luthiers might set up saddle height a bit high and intonation tiny bit sharp knowing they will sand down the saddle height from the bottom as last step to get right action height and that will correct the final fine tuning of intonation. Personally, I can live with a "flat" B string versus a "sharp" B string, they are both a problem, but sharp B string really bothers my ears. I think for us who do not do this everyday, we take it slow and keep the action a bit high knowing we can always go back to tweek it later, but once you take too much saddle away, you risk having to start from scratch all over again or have to shim it up to right height which is not my preference.
Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate this procedure. It was highly informative and will help me a great deal in setting-up both my acoustic guitars.
Wow this was a great informational video I learned so much! Thank you for making it. I wish the measurements of the other strings in between low and high E were called out just to give an idea of their height but besides that I loved this video. Awesome, awesome.
Relief: 12 thousandths of an inch. Action (capo on the 1st fretwire, measured at the 12th fret) : 4/64ths on the 1st string, 5/64ths on the 6th string. Nut (measuring distance between bottom of string and top of 1st fret): 15 thousandths of an inch on the 1st string, graduating up to 30 thousandths of an inch on the 6th string. Enjoy.
If you sand down the saddle on the treble side to lower the action, that affects multiple strings and could create intonation problems where you don't currently have them. If you only sand down the saddle below the top string, you'll throw the string radius out of whack -- one string will be lower than the rest, making it harder for your picking hand to adjust to string height, as you move back and forth across the fretboard. (String curvature should match your fretboard curvature.)
Fantastic video. I just decided I'm going to have to do this myself. There is no way that anybody else is going to put in the proper time and care to do this right unless I'm paying them a fortune.
thank you for this video! i'm only on 7 minutes, but i really like your explanations and clarity. i've just bought a second hand guitar from the '70s, and i like the build and sound, but the intonation is out and i want to lower the action by half. i never knew it was possible to affect the intonation! using this diy to set up my new baby the way i want it. many thanks for your efforts.
Not sure why you'd measure the action at the 12th fret with a capo on? If you're concerned about the nut affecting the action (and he's not on this guitar), then adjust the nut height first. His action measurements needed to have 1/128th to 1/64th added to the action at the 12th fret.
Super-high action may cause notes to fret sharp because you're stretching the string down to the fret -- almost like bending a note. So it's possible lowering your action might alleviate some of the 1st string sharpness. That said, it's always best to address any problems on a guitar with the right procedure. Adjusting the saddle for correct intonation affects the particular string along its entire vibrating length, from nut to saddle.
tedious process to do it right, thanks for sharing the correct way. the reality to us laymen is that this takes hours accomplish- be patient and do it right
I liked it. He may have assumed we knew the last (omitted bit) about where to file on the saddle to correct intonation issues. If the string is # when plucked and fretted at the 12th fret the distance between the 12th fret and the saddle needs to be longer (lowers the pitch) therefore file the neck side of the saddle under that string to move the intonation ridge back. Easier if you take the strings of first lol.
Thanks, excellent tutorial! I am getting ready to make a few saddles from blanks for my guitars and this video is my guide. Appreciate the sharing of your expertise sir!
+Aniket Kapse FYI it is 6/64th's or if you were to take the inch and divide it up into 64 parts. In mm it would be equivalent to 2.381 mm. You can also use Google and just enter without quotes "6/64 to mm".
+tampicokid But seriously, how good is this guys vision?!?! ...to be able to read 6/64th of an inch on that ruler haha. I think it would be easier to report it in millimeters
I was having a nightmare with intonation on all my acoustics. Sanding down the bridge height bit by bit and testing both Es finally fixed it. I never would have thought height affected intonation as on electric guitars intonation is corrected by moving the bridge pieces backwards or forwards. Acoustics should come with instructions on how to adjust intonation.
I have a dirt cheap acoustic I bought to mess around with (like 3/8" at the 12th fret...took the strings off (they were junk) pulled the bridge out and using a diamond sharpening plate, used it to file down the bottom of the bridge a good bit, pretty close to where it should be now and a lot easier to play, not killing my fingers after 5 minutes due the previous pressure needed to get a note out of it. Also sounds a lot better than it did. Might yet take a little more off it yet, but for the moment its a decent improvement and the video gave me enough of an idea of what to do. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and the bridge parts seem to be a wear item, so if you take too much off...start over. How do you think the setup techs learned? often just trial, error and lots and lots of practice
@GalaxyHorse I call it standard, because when I was growing up, inches, miles, yards, etc. were the "standard" units of measure. I did not know it was called Imperial, thank you for the correction.
A very thorough explanation. For the DIY'ers Taylor sells compensated saddles and you just have to adjust the height. I'm guessing that in the near future they'll simply scan your saddle and string height and a CNC machine will carve the perfect saddle. Of course, by then, guitarists will be replaced by robots.
This is the very best and detailed video's i have ever seen on youtube, thank you very much ... i have a taylor and it is a very nice instrument, i did some of what u did when i bought it new, but i may have missed a few things that u included in this video ... thank you very much. ... Awesome video.
Just from my past experience when you go to buy the guitar from " your local shop obviously " ask them to ( include a set up in the price) not right then, in a week, and schedule a time for it. that way you will have some time to play around with the guitar and be able to tell them what if anything you don't like.
if the saddle is filed to a point, and you file more to move that point to change the intonation, aren't you then lowering that one strings action? thanks for the video.
the saddle on an acoustic allows for the vibrations to transfer into the body itself. adjustable saddles you see on an electric generally don't give you the same contact due to less surface area, which works because the vibrations are going from the pickups to your amp. this is why when you pick up a hollow body electric it doesn't play with the same amplitude of an acoustic when it is not plugged in.
they work differently. If they had adjustable saddles the work independently the resonance would be off and the guitar wouldn't be able to play to the fullest
Thanks for the tips really helped me with the bad vibes i want to end up to focus my depression on something useful and maybe fun like playing the guitar instead of downing liters of alcohol
Taylors have a bolt on neck that gets shimmed to raise the fretboard to the height that works best with their saddles. If the neck ever needs adjusting, a Taylor authorized luthier makes that adjustment for free & bills Taylor direct. Get Taylor trained. They have a unique & ingenius system. Unless the saddle was damaged, it didn't need to be replaced or cost your customer anything, unless after adjusting the height of the neck, the intonation was way out & the saddle needed to be compensated.
I was always told to change one string at time, leaving the correct tension on the neck. This is supposed to keep the intonation accurate. I wonder if this is a myth...
winstonian88 is right. It's a myth, but with a caveat: an unstrung instrument will relax and some measurements would go off a bit, but when it's strung, it'll move slightly again as it takes on the string tension, and everything will end up in pretty much the same place. This means it's a good idea to let the restrung guitar settle for a few days, mainly for setup purposes & not really for every ordinary re-stringing. The actual amount of wood movement isn't as severe as one might suppose, unless perhaps the instrument has other problems like loose braces, a broken tension rod, or a loose neck joint. These detailed procedures are part of a systematic method that helps to determine things like that. What you should never do, however, is cut the strings off when they're tuned up. That's a bad way to shock & over-stress a bunch of glue joints. If you're gonna snip off an old set of strings, use the tuners to loosen them before you snip them. That being said, there's really no other easy way to remove a saddle without having to remove the strings, so, you gotta do what you gotta do.
I made a saddle for my guitar using this instruction (mainly) and like the result. Excellent teaching technique. Very easy to accept and the right result. I'd like to have a book to keep on hand (I like hardcopy) covering acoustic set up written or edited by John. Do you have one?
If the G string was so sharp when checking the intonation, why did you carve the saddle at the G so far forw ard creating the shortest distance? To me, you didn't solve that problem.
It's an excuse to upgrade with better saddle material such as bone, antler, micarta, corian, or Tusc. More importantly, if the new saddle somehow gets screwed up, you have your client's original saddle in unaltered condition, so you can start over on another replacement blank, & still have the original for referencing measurements, the same way it was used to make the replacement.
Yes, all true, but my experience has told me that if one has a saddle piezzo pickup installed under the saddle, the original or a Tusc saddle might work better because the synthetics are of a more uniform density throughout the saddle for better pickup balance than a bone saddle might be. It is my guess that the reason the original saddle was too high may have been because a pickup may have been installed under the saddle without sanding the original saddle to compensate for the thickness of the pickup and to restore what probably was good action. So I suppose keeping the original saddle at its original height in case the pickup were to be taken out might not be a bad idea.
The old saddle wasn't compensated. Making the new saddle allowed him to teach us how to set the action and how to adjust intonation via making a new saddle.
Very informative. Just curious, do you prefer to switch out the old parts with new? It seems you have better control over the result as opposed to using the existing material.
I see this video was 11 years ago. I don’t know if you’re still doing this if you can do a video on replacing the binding on a guild guitar. Thank you your explanation of everything was excellent. 👍🎻🪕🤠
A lot of great tips. Wish you would show the last step though, not just skip it. Also, in order to take the strings on/off, how much do you leave on the nuts? I always learned that the less you wind around it, the better the pitch stays. And please, start using the metric system:)
@HOGFBass What you call "Standard" is actually 'Imperial' it is quirky, not neat little increments of ten multiples-it has character and relates to the natural world more accurately, like Fibonacci ratio's, when do you see exact multiples of Ten in nature?
Just awesome! Helped me to understand a lot about guitars. Especially acoustics. Also made me realize what a piece of junk I've been playing! hehe I thought Takamine was a pretty good guitar until I watched this. It will help it a lot to set it up but it's never going to stay set up. Top is too weak. Might as well enjoy it while it's playing pretty decent. Plus I'm going to tune it down a half or whole step and use a kapo to play standard tuning. Gotta take a little pressure off that bridge
It is HEIGHT not HEIGHTH. The mispronunciation of height as heighth (with a th, rather than a t, sound at the end of the word) probably stems from the tendency to confuse it with similar words dealing with dimension, such as length, width, depth, and breadth.
+Meme Youyou I often use the word "heighth" in speech. When I read your comment it inspired me to dig a little deeper for an answer. It turns out "heighth" is actually a very old spelling. Additionally it is considered, in some dictionaries, to be merely an issue of dialect. So is it incorrect? Decide for yourself. I would suggest if the word effectively conveys the intended idea, it doesn't matter.
+Meme Youyou ''Actually - - a word is a word if it conveys meaning. To say that something is not a word is a function of prescriptive grammar, not descriptive grammar. Better to describe as an act of understanding, rather than to prescribe. Who among us can prescribe grammar in the face of the ever changing nature of language? To do so is tantamount to standing at water's edge in the face of the Tsunami, prescribing that it cannot, may not, dare not approach beyond the limits drawn on the map. Cringe if you wish, of certain train thy offspring to speak as dost make thee merry, yet woe to him who taketh not heed of ye olde spirit of contrarianism lest ye stray from prior prescribed manor of speech. Language changes, and never has nor never will conform completely. The point is, afterall, to understand one another.'' Kenton R. Johnson
Steven D. Maye I like what you have done here. Point taken. I will hand in my Grammar Police Badge and keyboard. I am just tired of people destroying the English language.
***** In saying that, I'm a bit of a 'Grammar Nazi' too so I understand completely where you're coming from. It's especially frustrating after investing so much time learning the damn language to see people bastardise it completely on a daily basis. I say dust off the badge and keep it active, buddy ;)
Interesting to watch but I won't be making a saddle soon myself. Seems like you could have made a truss rod adjustment to bring that action down just a little bit? I guess if U got the tools to do it right. Might as well do it all at once. If that guitar is so old and played on so many songs. I don't understand why someone had not already lowered the action? Cool Video I wish you would have played a little so we could hear before and after. Wow Just notice this video is over 5 years old. I bet that guitar now really has a history!
What a great video. So informative learning how you are really supposed to measure and gage a saddle. What type of radius gage are you using? I've never seen one like that and it really looks less cumbersome than having a bunch of steel ones. Some kind of machine shop one or??? Thank you for the video
I was really hoping to see the fine-tuning part of the intonation process, which they kinda left off at the end. Is there any more material on this? I know the article looks thorough, but actually seeing it would help a great deal.
@kugelblitz2001 If we used metric, 7 64ths of an inch would convert to approximately 2.75 millimeters. As much as I love metric, standard does have its place
You can learn alot from these guys, but I'd like to see them play the guitar after the job is done so I can hear for myself to see if there is any buzzing...Haha
Nice John. After teaching courses on Guitar Repair and Design for 22 years, up here in Canada; I can see why you have been so successful as a teacher. Well-paced lesson. Ignore the trolls ....
Good job ! Congrats . MMcC
My question is how long would it take him to do what he did in the video if he wasn't making a video? I understand why he made the video, but if he were alone working on this guitar, would it be 30-minutes setup...longer? Shorter? Seems very complicated and as much an art as it is a science!
Wow. I'm never going to attempt this. Shows how set-up techs are totally worth the money!
Thankfully saddles are cheap but it looks like a big hassle compared to tweaking screws on an electric guitar.
John LeVan explaining the techniques and method used to first 'mark-out' then file the saddle by hand to make it possible to set the intonation. Now you can tune your acoustic guitar. Priceless. Best explanation of this important component of a guitar.
This is Premier Guitar's best video. A must watch for any player who cares about their instrument.
I worked on guitars for 17 years in a music shop and there is info on here I never knew. Checked the intonation on my 1974 Martin D-18 and it's sharp in exactly where this video said it would be: low E and B. Can't wait to fix this! I'll just bear in mind the advice I got from an old friend who did trim work in houses. He told me you have to have the mind of a turtle to do what he does. Some things just can't be rushed! John obviously has the mind of a turtle, and that's a good thing for working on instruments.
+knopflerado
That's scary!
Great video and walk through. I've had John work on 4 of my guitars so far, and bar none, he's the best Guitar Tech I've ever met. Truly a student of his craft. For anyone who's local to Nashville, he's relocated his shop to Thompson Station. Great guy, and amazing expertise.
I assume you have never been in Joe Glaser's shop.
Thanks for this! It's the best and most-thorough exposition on this subject I've ever seen. Also, Mr LeVan's clearly a natural teacher who's clearly mastered his craft to the point at which it's an art. Please continue to draw from his vast experience and knowledge in the future!
I've been doing this sort of work for decades. I still learnt a few things from your video but have a few suggestions/reservations: 1.Taking a measurement of the nut height (height of string over the 1st fret) with the action at the 12th fret way out of whack is going to give a compromised reading for the nut height. You took the action at the nut out of the picture by using a capo at the 1st. Why not take the action at the 12th out of the picture when measuring at the first, esp when you have already established that the treble action is very high? 2. You didn't appear to check the neck relief under the e1 string. Ideally you want a touch more relief for the bass strings when compared to the treble, but most guitars seem to develop a touch more under the treble strings. This can sometimes be compensated for, for instance if you need to dress a little wear out of the first few frets for the treble strings.
3. I prefer to establish the correct curve along the saddle top by checking the action right across all 6 strings rather than by using a radius gauge. Because the string spread is getting wider as you approach the bridge the radius of the saddle top should be set a little flatter than the measured radius at the 12th fret. With many guitars, especially if moulded with extra compensation at the B string the action will jump at least a full 1/64" from the e1 to the b. This will make the b string very stiff to fret and will increase the tendency of the b to intonate sharp at the 12th. The b should only increase in height by half a 64th at most. 4. I don't see a great deal of value in checking intonation with old strings and a very compromised action height. I prefer to use a metre rule to physically check the saddle position to make sure it is in the right position. The correct saddle position and shaping for intonation is quite predictable and can be shaped very close once the desired action height is established. Then it can be tweaked to get it spot on. Finally, 5. I always like to check the nut position as part of the original set-up. Ideally, for a steel string, the nut should be .5mm closer to the first fret than the scale/fret rule indicates. This provides some compensation against the strings reading sharp at the first one or 2 frets because of the extra stretching of the string to fret them in those first positions. If the guitar is a little shy of the desired compensation at the 12th fret then a correction of the nut position (if it has no nut compensation) can help correct the octave without moving the saddle at all. I offer these comments, not as criticism, but in the spirit of sharing knowledge and experience.
Best wishes from Australia, Robin Moyes.
for those who's on metric system - 7/64 inches is 2,8 mm and 4/64 inches is 1,6 mm.
1/64 inch is 0,4 mm, 2/64 is 0,8 mm
Yes.... Good of you to mention it !! :)
Yes..thank you so very much... I was already about to panic.
Thank you for this, I have no idea how Americans deal with imperial!
Imperial: 6 83rds to the 22nd of a inch, what you want is 9 43rds to the 88th instead.
Metric: you want 2.2mm instead of 2.8
I wish they would have showed "the fine tuning" of the saddle, on how to correct for intonation. If the fretted 12th is sharp, do what? If the the fretted 12th is flat, do what? That is an important step IMO.
There is only two choices ! I believe if the string is sharp you need to lenghthen the span , if it is flat you need to shorten the span !
Yep. That’s what you do with the saddle.
@@1allstarman If it's flat, you start over with a new saddle blank, I guess.
@@griffox I should have explained myself better as I was referring to whether or not the string sounded sharp at the 12th fret as compared to playing the same string in the open position . This is how most people
determine whether or not a guitar is intonated properly , although in reality there are other factors and this is not always the case as there could still be problems with "sharping" , or the string playing sharp when the same string is depressed at the first fret even if the note at the open nut and the depressed twelfth fret are the same ( only one octave higher at # 12 fret ) . So lets say we are talking about the B-string. If you tune the B string to a b note when it is open , and then get a sharper note ( more than an octave above the open position ) when you depress the string at the twelfth fret , ( providing of course your action is not too high ) then you would need to lengthen the string by beveling the nut side of the saddle away from the nut towards the bridge pins , in essence lengthening the string .If you look closely at the saddle of most guitars nowadays they come pre adjusted to get an idea what I mean .
@@1allstarman I get that. I know what intonation is on a guitar. And I understand how to fix a sharp note at the 12th fret. The question asked was what if it's flat. My point was that if you've taken too much off and the 12th fret is flat you need to shorten the string, but you can't add the amount you sanded off back. My comment about starting over was more of a joke.
High action might mean your truss rod needs adjusting, or that the strings sit too high in the nut, or that the saddle is too high ... or a combination of all three. A professional tech can identify where the problem is and deal with it. Once the action is right and the guitar plays the way you want it, then you can intonate the saddle. Intonation is really the final step in the setup process. Hope this helps! -- PG staff
That's some beautiful work you're doing there. Not sure everybody takes all the care that you put into the job..
He's really thorough, isn't he? But there are quite a few who go to all the same extremes, because it's the best way to ensure consistently-accurate results. Of course, it depends a lot on the instrument and it's intended use, and you may not need to be this exacting if your guitar's action is in rough shape and you just want to make it a bit better & save some bucks by doing it yourself. This video can be a handy reference for you, to gauge the extent the of the accuracy that your own needs call for.
If that were my guitar, and having watched this video, I would be so super pleased with the attention to detail you have given it. And also, even though I am not interested in doing the work myself, I have learned a lot as when my guitars may need work and what needs to be done.
Finally, a thorough step-by-step guide to setup an acoustic guitar. Thanks for posting! For those who want to follow written instructions you can find it at in the April 2012 edition of Premier Guitar for free on their website. Click 'Digital Edition' and find the article "DIY: Setting Acoustic Intonation".
What a fantastic demonstration. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Watched this a few years ago and I gotta say, that trick of pushing the string in fist to pull the pins works brilliantly! Never had to use any sort of tools to pull my pins and it keeps my bridge free from marring. Just started watching again as I need to adjust the action and possibly intonation now.
Andy, you're using a Ryobi Tec 4 power screwdriver! I have been telling other techs and luthiers about the Tec 4 for years. I had two on my benches for 3 years now. Best rechargeable, clutched string winder I've found. Kudos!
I WANT THAT GIANT MAGNIFYING GLASS!!! Will definitely make this type of work easier.
Great video!! Especially shaping the saddle.I would have appreciated his giving us what measurements where he said "This is perfect and doesn't need anything" and left it at that. One more thing, when he gives his ideal measurements at the 12th fret, remember, this is NOT for every type of guitar or player. This is for a Taylor 914 (the last digit, 4, indicates a "Grand Concert", which is a nice compromise between a Concert and Dreadnaught. His measurements indicate to me this is probably for a fingerstyle player. Someone strumming rhythm on a Dreadnaught would definitely want higher action at the 12th fret. I actually like that little bit of buzz, but not everyone does. Most companies give a starting point for the important numbers, but then you must make changes to reflect your style. And you will often go back and forth between the nut and saddle!! So if you plan to bring the saddle down a lot, and you are also making a new nut, don't go too low, especially on those old Japanese imports that sound really good, but wind up needing a neck reset or the bridge lifts, and since the used epoxy, most of us live with a little high action rather than kill ourselves or our tech trying to get the damn thing off!! Thanks for the great video!!! John Levan also has a good setup book out from a few years ago, Guitar Setup, Maintenance, & Repair, (Mel Bay). Goes well with the Dan Erlewine book, The Guitar Player Repair Guide. If you have never done these things, grab some cheap yard sale guitars!!!! Broken or working....doesn't matter!! Especially for fret work....get anything to get used to doing it. I screwed up a really good guitar, snd had to have my repair guy fix what should have been a cheap job!!! (fretwork)....So if you have a GREAT guitar, don't jump into repair on that one!!!
This is a cool video. I had no idea how much hand-working was involved in setting up my acoustic. It's always good to watch a pro who has done it for years.
Touché. You got me with that well thought out and articulate argument. Clearly you are an intellectual giant of the highest order.
This guy is a true craftsman.
If you have a a Chinese guitar copy or any cheap guitar and you want to set up the intonation a 1st step as a rough in is to measure from the Nut to the 12 fret for example say its 12.5 inch. Then measure 12.5 to your NEW BLANK NUT an MARK IT Right there. I have done tons of intonations this way and it usually is pretty on the mark fora start. Then you can fine tune it with the strings at tension. Note use NEW strings guys. If you are setting up a guitar I find it best to use what you are going to put on the guitar. This goes for Acoustic, Electric, Bass, Cello, Violin. John LeVan is amazing and his video here is exceptional. I just wanted to add a few extra points to help you ROUGH IN with accuracy. Cheers Patrick
+Patrick Boshell
"Then measure 12.5 to your NEW BLANK NUT"
I believe you meant NEW BLANK SADDLE didn't you?
I have a Mitchell MD100, I managed to get the knut, action, and neck adjusted, but the D is still flat, I tried sanding off the back of the bridge some, so far no luck. I did manage to get the G in perfect intonation doing the same thing.
Excellent work and presentation !!!
I own 6 Greek bouzouki that was all special order hand made , each cost me about $ 3000 to $ 5000 dollars !!!
And I watch two luthiers how they build them up ....and I know and understand how they work on the instruments and how they work up to last detail...to give to the instruments all the PERSONAL CARE NEEDED !!!
This is one of the best videos on guitar setup. There are other videos out there by guys calling themselves luthiers, offering terrible advice on guitar setup.. They're idiots, not luthiers.
Yes it was a very clear and concise explanation. Well Done!
Excellent setup guide! Best I've ever seen and so helpful! Thanks for taking the time to do this for us. Great work.
It's a pleasure to watch him work
This is one of the best videos Ive seen on the subject so far! Thanks for the clear explanations, good camera work and decent lighting! BTW~ Every Taylor I have encountered was not set up right, I wish you had strummed a few chords with her all dialed in, or maybe even a before/after, I suspect lowering the action might decrease volume, but correct intonation would really open the voice! Bravo!
At the end he mentions having to move intonation back a bit for several strings. But with the 12th fret action all ready at 4/64ths and 5/64ths, that will drop action lower and you risk lowering to the point of buzzing and or getting certain string heights too low at bridge. I am thinking luthiers might set up saddle height a bit high and intonation tiny bit sharp knowing they will sand down the saddle height from the bottom as last step to get right action height and that will correct the final fine tuning of intonation. Personally, I can live with a "flat" B string versus a "sharp" B string, they are both a problem, but sharp B string really bothers my ears. I think for us who do not do this everyday, we take it slow and keep the action a bit high knowing we can always go back to tweek it later, but once you take too much saddle away, you risk having to start from scratch all over again or have to shim it up to right height which is not my preference.
Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate this procedure. It was highly informative and will help me a great deal in setting-up both my acoustic guitars.
Wow this was a great informational video I learned so much! Thank you for making it. I wish the measurements of the other strings in between low and high E were called out just to give an idea of their height but besides that I loved this video. Awesome, awesome.
Thanks for your help! I have two acoustics that need my tender loving care and I will be working on them this week.
Relief: 12 thousandths of an inch.
Action (capo on the 1st fretwire, measured at the 12th fret) : 4/64ths on the 1st string, 5/64ths on the 6th string.
Nut (measuring distance between bottom of string and top of 1st fret): 15 thousandths of an inch on the 1st string, graduating up to 30 thousandths of an inch on the 6th string.
Enjoy.
If you sand down the saddle on the treble side to lower the action, that affects multiple strings and could create intonation problems where you don't currently have them. If you only sand down the saddle below the top string, you'll throw the string radius out of whack -- one string will be lower than the rest, making it harder for your picking hand to adjust to string height, as you move back and forth across the fretboard. (String curvature should match your fretboard curvature.)
Fantastic video. I just decided I'm going to have to do this myself. There is no way that anybody else is going to put in the proper time and care to do this right unless I'm paying them a fortune.
So all that work and not a single strum?
thank you for this video! i'm only on 7 minutes, but i really like your explanations and clarity. i've just bought a second hand guitar from the '70s, and i like the build and sound, but the intonation is out and i want to lower the action by half. i never knew it was possible to affect the intonation! using this diy to set up my new baby the way i want it. many thanks for your efforts.
Not sure why you'd measure the action at the 12th fret with a capo on? If you're concerned about the nut affecting the action (and he's not on this guitar), then adjust the nut height first. His action measurements needed to have 1/128th to 1/64th added to the action at the 12th fret.
Super-high action may cause notes to fret sharp because you're stretching the string down to the fret -- almost like bending a note. So it's possible lowering your action might alleviate some of the 1st string sharpness.
That said, it's always best to address any problems on a guitar with the right procedure. Adjusting the saddle for correct intonation affects the particular string along its entire vibrating length, from nut to saddle.
Ice truck killer from dexter.
***** Thinking the EXACT same thing haha. Glad I'm not the only one.
***** I couldn't place him, I just knew I recognised him, especially his voice...thanks Anthony !!
I knew this guy reminded me of someone but didn't know who. Now i know it HAHAH xD
tedious process to do it right, thanks for sharing the correct way. the reality to us laymen is that this takes hours accomplish- be patient and do it right
good thing andy ellis was there. great job
I liked it. He may have assumed we knew the last (omitted bit) about where to file on the saddle to correct intonation issues. If the string is # when plucked and fretted at the 12th fret the distance between the 12th fret and the saddle needs to be longer (lowers the pitch) therefore file the neck side of the saddle under that string to move the intonation ridge back. Easier if you take the strings of first lol.
Thank you for presenting that so well. Very Informative! Just wish they played that beautiful guitar in the end and got to hear how it sounds.
Thanks, excellent tutorial! I am getting ready to make a few saddles from blanks for my guitars and this video is my guide. Appreciate the sharing of your expertise sir!
Excellent tutorial. Much in detail.
This guy knows his stuff! I'd like to pick his brain.
Someone please explain 664th of an inch in mm? How much is it in non retarded measurement system?
+Aniket Kapse FYI it is 6/64th's or if you were to take the inch and divide it up into 64 parts. In mm it would be equivalent to 2.381 mm. You can also use Google and just enter without quotes "6/64 to mm".
+Torpid69 Strange to use 6/64ths and not 3/32nds!!
+Lowdenjim Totally agree but they are the same measurement and you asked about 6/64ths :)
+tampicokid But seriously, how good is this guys vision?!?! ...to be able to read 6/64th of an inch on that ruler haha. I think it would be easier to report it in millimeters
Hey don't make fun of the American system. Why go metrc? JK. Yeah that measurement is absolutely retarded.
Well narrated and informative
I was having a nightmare with intonation on all my acoustics. Sanding down the bridge height bit by bit and testing both Es finally fixed it. I never would have thought height affected intonation as on electric guitars intonation is corrected by moving the bridge pieces backwards or forwards. Acoustics should come with instructions on how to adjust intonation.
I have a dirt cheap acoustic I bought to mess around with (like 3/8" at the 12th fret...took the strings off (they were junk) pulled the bridge out and using a diamond sharpening plate, used it to file down the bottom of the bridge a good bit, pretty close to where it should be now and a lot easier to play, not killing my fingers after 5 minutes due the previous pressure needed to get a note out of it. Also sounds a lot better than it did.
Might yet take a little more off it yet, but for the moment its a decent improvement and the video gave me enough of an idea of what to do.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and the bridge parts seem to be a wear item, so if you take too much off...start over. How do you think the setup techs learned? often just trial, error and lots and lots of practice
@GalaxyHorse I call it standard, because when I was growing up, inches, miles, yards, etc. were the "standard" units of measure. I did not know it was called Imperial, thank you for the correction.
I usually mark a line where the strings take-off (contact point), so I know not to file that mark off... helps from taking too much off the saddle
This was super relaxing to watch.
@HOGFBass 2.75mm sounds fine to me! You can express it as 2750 micrometres if you want to use whole numbers.
Great skillset young man. For old eyes things move real fast but I have replay. Thank you soo very much...
Bless you John. Outstanding tutorial.
Thank God I don’t know how out of whack my beloved guitars are😜 Ignorance truly is bliss🤣. But this is a great video. The guys a master! Thanks
A very thorough explanation. For the DIY'ers Taylor sells compensated saddles and you just have to adjust the height. I'm guessing that in the near future they'll simply scan your saddle and string height and a CNC machine will carve the perfect saddle. Of course, by then, guitarists will be replaced by robots.
This is the very best and detailed video's i have ever seen on youtube, thank you very much ... i have a taylor and it is a very nice instrument, i did some of what u did when i bought it new, but i may have missed a few things that u included in this video ... thank you very much. ... Awesome video.
What a craftsman. Look at those hands!
Great video with good info--thanks!
Never knew making a saddle was so complicated. I know a lot more now
This guys knows his shit. Well done
This guy is great! Have a Martin that needs some love. Will Dig IN And spend the time now.
After all that we were robbed of hearing how it sounds.
A before and after would've been great.
Just from my past experience when you go to buy the guitar from " your local shop obviously " ask them to ( include a set up in the price) not right then, in a week, and schedule a time for it. that way you will have some time to play around with the guitar and be able to tell them what if anything you don't like.
Same thing with what i've done with my father's guitar. Nice work!
if the saddle is filed to a point, and you file more to move that point to change the intonation, aren't you then lowering that one strings action? thanks for the video.
He said to leave enough to go back or forward a little. Im assuming he left a flat top on the nut
This helped me out tremendously! Many Thanks!
This is a wonderful video, but it begs the question: why do acoustic guitars not have adjustable saddles like electrics do?
the saddle on an acoustic allows for the vibrations to transfer into the body itself. adjustable saddles you see on an electric generally don't give you the same contact due to less surface area, which works because the vibrations are going from the pickups to your amp. this is why when you pick up a hollow body electric it doesn't play with the same amplitude of an acoustic when it is not plugged in.
they work differently. If they had adjustable saddles the work independently the resonance would be off and the guitar wouldn't be able to play to the fullest
Thank you for a very well done and informative video !
Thanks for the tips really helped me with the bad vibes i want to end up to focus my depression on something useful and maybe fun like playing the guitar instead of downing liters of alcohol
Taylors have a bolt on neck that gets shimmed to raise the fretboard to the height that works best with their saddles. If the neck ever needs adjusting, a Taylor authorized luthier makes that adjustment for free & bills Taylor direct. Get Taylor trained. They have a unique & ingenius system. Unless the saddle was damaged, it didn't need to be replaced or cost your customer anything, unless after adjusting the height of the neck, the intonation was way out & the saddle needed to be compensated.
Thank you! I've got a couple acoustic guitars that need these adjustments.
Good stuff to learn before I even learn to play the guitar lol.
I was always told to change one string at time, leaving the correct tension on the neck. This is supposed to keep the intonation accurate. I wonder if this is a myth...
winstonian88 is right. It's a myth, but with a caveat: an unstrung instrument will relax and some measurements would go off a bit, but when it's strung, it'll move slightly again as it takes on the string tension, and everything will end up in pretty much the same place. This means it's a good idea to let the restrung guitar settle for a few days, mainly for setup purposes & not really for every ordinary re-stringing. The actual amount of wood movement isn't as severe as one might suppose, unless perhaps the instrument has other problems like loose braces, a broken tension rod, or a loose neck joint. These detailed procedures are part of a systematic method that helps to determine things like that. What you should never do, however, is cut the strings off when they're tuned up. That's a bad way to shock & over-stress a bunch of glue joints. If you're gonna snip off an old set of strings, use the tuners to loosen them before you snip them. That being said, there's really no other easy way to remove a saddle without having to remove the strings, so, you gotta do what you gotta do.
I made a saddle for my guitar using this instruction (mainly) and like the result. Excellent teaching technique. Very easy to accept and the right result. I'd like to have a book to keep on hand (I like hardcopy) covering acoustic set up written or edited by John. Do you have one?
If the G string was so sharp when checking the intonation, why did you carve the saddle at the G so far forw
ard creating the shortest distance? To me, you didn't solve that problem.
ha true,,, but you solved the problem of why we didn`t get to hear the guitar at the end...lol
Why was it necessary to make a new saddle? If the original saddle was too tall why not just sand the bottom to lower the height?
Because the intonation on the old saddle was bad.
It may have been bad because it was too high.
It's an excuse to upgrade with better saddle material such as bone, antler, micarta, corian, or Tusc. More importantly, if the new saddle somehow gets screwed up, you have your client's original saddle in unaltered condition, so you can start over on another replacement blank, & still have the original for referencing measurements, the same way it was used to make the replacement.
Yes, all true, but my experience has told me that if one has a saddle piezzo pickup installed under the saddle, the original or a Tusc saddle might work better because the synthetics are of a more uniform density throughout the saddle for better pickup balance than a bone saddle might be. It is my guess that the reason the original saddle was too high may have been because a pickup may have been installed under the saddle without sanding the original saddle to compensate for the thickness of the pickup and to restore what probably was good action. So I suppose keeping the original saddle at its original height in case the pickup were to be taken out might not be a bad idea.
The old saddle wasn't compensated. Making the new saddle allowed him to teach us how to set the action and how to adjust intonation via making a new saddle.
Super helpful and strangely soothing. Although, you should have given us a riff or two on the finished product!
Very informative. Just curious, do you prefer to switch out the old parts with new? It seems you have better control over the result as opposed to using the existing material.
I see this video was 11 years ago. I don’t know if you’re still doing this if you can do a video on replacing the binding on a guild guitar. Thank you your explanation of everything was excellent. 👍🎻🪕🤠
A lot of great tips. Wish you would show the last step though, not just skip it. Also, in order to take the strings on/off, how much do you leave on the nuts? I always learned that the less you wind around it, the better the pitch stays. And please, start using the metric system:)
We should do a whip-around and buy this fellow a Panavise and decent set of needle files. Throw in a few miniature sanding blocks as well.
Good video, thanks.
@HOGFBass What you call "Standard" is actually 'Imperial' it is quirky, not neat little increments of ten multiples-it has character and relates to the natural world more accurately, like Fibonacci ratio's, when do you see exact multiples of Ten in nature?
Just awesome! Helped me to understand a lot about guitars. Especially acoustics. Also made me realize what a piece of junk I've been playing! hehe I thought Takamine was a pretty good guitar until I watched this. It will help it a lot to set it up but it's never going to stay set up. Top is too weak. Might as well enjoy it while it's playing pretty decent. Plus I'm going to tune it down a half or whole step and use a kapo to play standard tuning. Gotta take a little pressure off that bridge
Very informative. I wish I had the tools.
It is HEIGHT not HEIGHTH. The mispronunciation of height as heighth (with a th, rather than a t, sound at the end of the word) probably stems from the tendency to confuse it with similar words dealing with dimension, such as length, width, depth, and breadth.
+Meme Youyou I often use the word "heighth" in speech. When I read your comment it inspired me to dig a little deeper for an answer. It turns out "heighth" is actually a very old spelling. Additionally it is considered, in some dictionaries, to be merely an issue of dialect. So is it incorrect? Decide for yourself. I would suggest if the word effectively conveys the intended idea, it doesn't matter.
+Meme Youyou
''Actually - - a word is a word if it conveys meaning.
To say that something is not a word is a function of prescriptive grammar, not descriptive grammar. Better to describe as an act of understanding, rather than to prescribe.
Who among us can prescribe grammar in the face of the ever changing nature of language? To do so is tantamount to standing at water's edge in the face of the Tsunami, prescribing that it cannot, may not, dare not approach beyond the limits drawn on the map. Cringe if you wish, of certain train thy offspring to speak as dost make thee merry, yet woe to him who taketh not heed of ye olde spirit of contrarianism lest ye stray from prior prescribed manor of speech.
Language changes, and never has nor never will conform completely. The point is, afterall, to understand one another.''
Kenton R. Johnson
Steven D. Maye I like what you have done here. Point taken. I will hand in my Grammar Police Badge and keyboard. I am just tired of people destroying the English language.
***** In saying that, I'm a bit of a 'Grammar Nazi' too so I understand completely where you're coming from. It's especially frustrating after investing so much time learning the damn language to see people bastardise it completely on a daily basis. I say dust off the badge and keep it active, buddy ;)
+Steven D. Maye A very cromulent observation.
Really great. Wish all luthiers would be so accurate
Wish you could also tell the metric numbers. Imperial has so many variants must drive you crazy.lol
Interesting to watch but I won't be making a saddle soon myself. Seems like you could have made a truss rod adjustment to bring that action down just a little bit? I guess if U got the tools to do it right. Might as well do it all at once.
If that guitar is so old and played on so many songs. I don't understand why someone had not already lowered the action? Cool Video I wish you would have played a little so we could hear before and after. Wow Just notice this video is over 5 years old. I bet that guitar now really has a history!
Great tutorial
This guy is good. I wish his shop was in Mpls.
thank you those little tips from your experience shows .fr Las Vegas
What a great video. So informative learning how you are really supposed to measure and gage a saddle. What type of radius gage are you using? I've never seen one like that and it really looks less cumbersome than having a bunch of steel ones. Some kind of machine shop one or??? Thank you for the video
I was really hoping to see the fine-tuning part of the intonation process, which they kinda left off at the end. Is there any more material on this? I know the article looks thorough, but actually seeing it would help a great deal.
@kugelblitz2001 If we used metric, 7 64ths of an inch would convert to approximately 2.75 millimeters. As much as I love metric, standard does have its place
wow great instructions. thank you very much.
You can learn alot from these guys, but I'd like to see them play the guitar after the job is done so I can hear for myself to see if there is any buzzing...Haha