Dialogos and mystical realization part 1 w/ Guy Sengstock and Zevi Slavin - Voices with Vervaeke
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ธ.ค. 2024
- This is the first part of series that will move between my channel, Guy Sengstock's channel, and Zevi Slavin's channel as we work together to draw out and clarify the connections between dialogos and mystical experience/transformation.
Guy's channel: / 82472tclt
Zevi's channel: / @seekersofunity
Next video in the series can be found here: • Dialogos and mystical ...
You can support my work on Patreon, with the proceeds going into the research I do at the University of Toronto on the Meaning Crisis and the cultivation of wisdom here: / johnvervaeke
Join the Discord Server to discuss and reflect upon my work: / discord
This talk was particularly riveting for me. There's not only a patience to the I/Thou that subverts cynicism and anxiety but the reciprocal state of revealing and being revealed to feels deeply mystical. Its like a call to participate in something beyond you but part of you at the same time. Thankyou for this much needed sense of connectedness!
As you interacted, I was also caught up into the euphoria of the dialogue. In other words, there is a way that you do not need to actually dialogue to participate in the larger 'we' space. Thanks so much. Very powerful
Thank you for making this happen.
Thank you my friend.
Three of my favorite thinkers in this corner of the internet. Thanks again gentleman.
Thank you for elucidating the whole presence that Buber struggled with.
Look deep deep inside the self and you’ll find everyone else
this came to me once as I was meditating and I’ve never forgot it and this conversation resonates with that realization for me
I loved it that was spectacular thank you to all of you it is a present to be in your presence even if your presence is somewhere else to have the presents of your presence with me, I love y'all
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Gentlemen, thank you.
John, I am 20 mins in and already i am calling this your best work yet. Love it.
What Guy described right around 02:00:00 is exactly how I felt when I was a child. I had this with nature, the meadows, forests and the familiar landscapes around our village. I felt like it all had a character and I remember wanting to feel more of it. Wanting to be closer to whatever I felt is there. I tried rolling downhill in the grass just for the heck of it and goofing off. :) Nowadays, I get glimpses of "something", which I don't even know what it is. It seems to come of it's own, this deep resonance, at-one-ment, I suppose? I do feel connected to the world in a way that I know it knows I'm there and there is nothing on mind that's bugging me at all. I feel totally content and at peace.
These episodes are however momentary and I would like to understand how I can experience them more often. ;)
Totally ecstatic. And the amazing thing is that it’s all happening and penetrating the listener a year later too. Thank you so much.
First, thanks for the conversation, there is so much to dig and understand!
About the non-logical presentation around 1:38:00 , Lupasco and Nicolescu wrote about this. In Lupasco''s ternary logic, the third included - the term that describes what is AND what is not (A = non A), which violates the identity principle - is the mediator that allows reality, matter and the mind to exist. It is always present simultaneously through the potentialization and the actualization of any phenomena. Nicolescu added that the third included lies on another level of reality, different than the one where its dual/contradictory manisfestation occurs. He also had the intuition of a participatory principle as he explains in his essay on Jakob Boehme (p.118 among many pages). Lupasco is hard to find in English but Joseph Brenner makes a good presentation of his work.
1.5hr in and something that is (finally) shining for me is the notion that what you guys are trying to say (and do say it -- but it seems understanding at least when demanded so quickly is about recapitulating what the other says in your own words in an agreed upon manner) is that everything is filled with the ineffable. Which this kept on reminding me of when I heard John describe ⅓ of Thales' philosophy as "Everything is filled with gods" in AFTMC, which has bowled me over every time since. Just wanted to throw this in the mix.
Thank you John, Zevi and Guy for a superb dialogos.
What a beautiful conversation. Thank you for sharing.
Much enjoyed this dialogos gentlemen
Another beautiful discussion! I've been enjoying these very much. The example of the rover operators anthropomorphizing and identifying with the rover reminds me of shamanic practices. It sounds like they were unintentionally doing with the rover what shamans did intentionally with animals, or practicioners of Western magic/occultism do with gods and spirits. I used to be very opposed to anthropomorphizing God, due to my very conservative Christian upbringing, but now I think it can afford really deep personal transformation if used correctly.
Thanks Zevi, Guy and John!
Terrific conversation. Thank you.
Dialog is entangling and resonance is synergenic.
I identify with a lot of this. I'm curious John and Guy and Zevi, do you have a goal to make this a practical formula for general use for all?
OK! The sound is now working properly. No echo.
1:01:58 "...and then we can talk".
Reminder to 'my'self
Here I am commiting my moreness to you
So there's a huge difference between listening and hearing. To hear is to not identify and to listen is to identify.
All we have are our connections.
Resonance is transcendant. Resonace implies a coupling: it's an opportunity to conform with each other.
Excellent start. Not to be a broken record but i must bring up levinas as being the missing foil to this conversation - both in response to Buber and Heidegger. You get so close to Levinas again and again - the commandedness to respond (in the heneni conversation), the discussion of the face, the "third person", etc. You are circling "being for the other" (not that levinas is perfect, but it seems critical to engage him and his differences with buber and Heidegger)
Puzzle this: if it doesn’t belong to (a) then by default it belongs to (b) and never to (c). 16:11
Excellent question at the end, Guy. The relationship between the fullness of language thru time and one's relationship with true self...?
Minor pedantic point: the prefix dia- means 'through' or 'across' not 'two'. That would be a duologos
Here’s a Relational thought 💭 How about placing the speaker who has the floor, front and center on the screen with your audience in mind: front and center? ;)
Hi John, in terms of the 4 types of knowing, what does knowing that you're intoxicated fall under? Perspectival?
Yes.
As a audience member, I think I understand what John is saying about presence without presentation, as an observer of this dialogos, I am sharing my presence without presenting myself.
Until I comment, at which point I am announcing my presence, with the presentation of the comment.
I don’t like how John wouldn’t use ‘her’ name, but I understand why he couldn’t allow himself! My experience is entirely different though! 🌚☄️❤️💫
Re Zevi’s invitation to Guy to dialogue with nature, it would be amazing to bring David Abram into this Dialogos!
(If unfamiliar, he is the author of Becoming Animal & The Spell of the Sensuous… you can also find him on TH-cam)
Is there another website to watch this other than TH-cam?
Unfortunately not. I would love it if John had a social media team that could put these conversations on Spotify.
Meaning is place; you are *where* you are; anyone in your place would be exactly you! I trust you like my own soul. How many times would you forgive yourself?
There is a huge echo. Might be a bluetooth speaker open somewhere?
The second part of the one commandment: "transform 'thou' into 'i'" or, maybe "transform 'i' into "thou"'; "love your neighbour as you love yourself". It's a meditative exercise. I think "i" into "thou" might be best? ... Nope, purely context dependant; works both ways. Seems to me.
When I was very young, like 4 or so, I vividly recall the moment I realized I was not the center of the world, other people had feelings just like me. Was I a philosopher back then? I always thought I was just aware of a stage of development, perhaps because I arrived a bit late to it. I've never had a lot of use for philosophy. Often, it seems like so much splitting of hair. Is that because I grasped the I/Thou at 4 years old? 😂 I'm sure this is just another example of my confused mind....
I wonder have any of your three heard of Richard Rohr, or read his book The Divine Dance? Its a mystic view on God as Trinity.
I have one is his books but I have not read yet.
English's' homogeneity of languages and the reduction of gendered expression and meter allows more free expression at a cost of abstraction and in general a more assured absolutism as the relational traits of objects are of the sentence composition rather than inherent trait of the object which leaves the subjective qualia as an afterthought.
Wehsee 🌚☄️❤️💫
Reason is coherence detection. I suspect extracellular electrotonic coupling.
The mystics are talking.
There is a several second echo delay with John's talking. Can't even follow. :(
John needs to upgrade his Mic
Teleological tennis: every relationship has a characteristic time constant.
Get Alexander Bard on here
Conatus! that's it, thx!
The observer-observed duality is embraced/Eros by the obs-obs- unity, or non-duality, such that the transcendent Intelligible realm is made immanent as an 'integrated whole,' brought about by the archetypally creative intelligence of Logos. The soul's commune in paradise - 'as Above, so Below' - yet there is no 'proof' that this is so, only the fact that authenticity and integrity speaks to one in a kind of 'reality' that is inseperable from what makes life real in general. While listening to a concert, we commune together as the numinosity of the divine presence embraces us all as an integrated whole, and this realization of Personhood, of the 'indivisibe' individual soul has to direct attention, also, to the Good and the One as a necessary self-reflection.
You really need to talk with ken wheeler! Especially on this topic.
wilber?
🌚☄️❤️💫
The holy trinity
Oy
I really wish people would speak clearly and drop the use of 'post modernism', it is lazy and gives credit to bad philosophy.