I watched this live, it's a good discussion. A funny thing happened during it that night. I was outside and looked up to see a stream of new stars. It was SpaceX launching twenty plus satellites. It made me jump at first because of all the prophecy I've been listening to. ✌️🤠 Blessings Brother 🙏
@@stephencoe2231 A couple of days later they launched even more. The first night the set moved "out" where the second set zoomed in a line eastwards. It was very cool. 😎👍
It's funny you should put up this video right now, because I was judt thinking about this very topic a few days ago. (Whether that's coincidence or Divine Providence, you be the judge.) However, the passage that was on my mind was not any of them mentioned here; it was Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. I know Adventist apologists will insist that was only a parable (which may or may not be true), but even if it is, it still poses a huge problem for their "state of the dead" teaching. The story clearly has Lazarus going straight to heaven when he dies, and the rich man going straight to hell. The rich man is conscious in hell and asks Abraham to send someone back to warn his five brothers who are still alive. This clearly contradicts the Adventist teaching on multiple counts. And Jesus would NEVER use an untruth to illustrate a truth. He wouldn't tell a parable of people going directly to heaven or hell at death if it doesn't happen in real life. To call that a "lie" or even a "lie of the devil," as Adventists often do, is not only false but blasphemous because it is effecively declaring the Lord Jesus to be a liar and an agent of the devil. It even borders on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told the Jewish leaders that accused Him of casting out demons by Satan's power. And before any Adventists bring up John 11: 11-14 in the comments, I want to make the point that Jesus is clearly speaking metaphorically in that passage, and we know this because the text tells us so. When Jesus said that Lazarus was "asleep," the Disciples thought He was speaking of literal sleep, and Jesus corrected them and said that Lazarus was actually dead. If death was literally a sleep as SDAs claim, then Jesus wouldn't have corrected the Disciples on that. I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll save it for now. Once again, Myles, I have finally broken through and deprogrammed another part of the cultic brainwashing I received as an Adventist.
Yes, even if Luke 16 is a parable, that doesn’t solve the dilemma for them as parables use imagery to convey truths. What does the fire represent? What does the torment represent? What does the conscious experience represent? Why is Jesus using all of those things to convey something that is apparently quite the opposite-an annihilation into nothingness with no conscious experience.
@@answeringadventism And what imagery does going straight to heaven or hell at death represent? Going to heaven is going to heaven and going to hell is going to hell; I don't know how you can make that out to simply be "symbolic."
Do you know, what the rich man went to hell for? He went to hell, because he had only good things in life. This is the reason given by Abraham. So the rich man was tormented because he had an easy life, and Lazarus was comforted because he had a miserable life. So we have 3 options: 1. We enjoy our good lives in prosperity as long as we can, and know, that when we die, we will be tormented forever in hell. 2. We sell everything we have and give it to the poor and live miserable lives now - like Lazarus - so that when we die, we will be comforted in Abraham's bosom. 3. Jesus did not mean to give us an accurate depiction of the afterlife here, but rather wanted to show us something different. What exactly, I don't know. Maybe, that the miserable aren't all under God's curse like the Jews thought (John 9:2). Maybe the rich man represents the Jews or the Jewish elite, who had received much knowledge from God, and Lazarus represents the Gentiles or the common Jewish man, who hungered for the truth, but his hunger was not satisfied in life. Maybe the parable is just that - a parable.
Mayb my dream w the 4 creatures ox man lion eagle was connected to spiritual and conscious? I just started listen to this video soo I did not get enough information yet
1. 2 Corinthians 5:8 is taken out of context. 2. Who did Jesus lie to; the thief or Mary, both, or is there grammar that changes the context? 3. Ecclesiastes 9:5 4. What happens when creation goes in reverse? 5. Study “spirit” in the Greek (pneuma) and apply. There is more than one definition. 6. What does death/die/dead really mean? 7. Look at Jesus as our example of what resurrection means. If people are already in Heaven, what is the need to get our earthly bodies back? At that point hasn’t the corruptible put on incorruption?
The guest brought up 2 Corinthians 5:8 to further his stance concerning the state of the dead. Not only was 2 Corinthians 5:8 taken out of context, but it was misquoted too. This misquote I once firmly subscribed to until I was challenged to reread that bit of scripture and the surrounding context of it. Now that I have read it for what it states, I will respectfully challenge those to reread, with upmost care, the scripture and it’s surrounding context.
@@answeringadventism I agree with most things you say but I can’t agree with the state of the dead. What does it mean “ The dead know not anything “. Have you ever been around a dying person? This has nothing to do with SDA Nothing at all but dealing with death I can only agree with that the text that the living know they shall die but the dead know not anything.
@@elviraroberts876 Don't stop with the "dead know nothing." Be consistent and carry your thought all the way through the entire verse. If you want to claim the verse is a commentary on the state of a soul after death, then you also have to say they "have no reward" after death "for the memory of them is forgotten" after death. That means no heaven, no nothing for a dead person at all. Everything is wiped away. Or...maybe the entire passage is not a commentary on the state of a soul after death. It is simply an "under the sun" observation about the fact that once a person is dead, they cease to have anything to do with life on earth.
I think in Dan 7:16 Dan is still talking anthropologically. When you are really grieved you feel it in "the midst" of your body. He may not be giving us an actual clear understanding of the actual nature and exact makeup of the parts of a humans body and soul.
Ideas are valuable in practical matters. In matters of human relationship, ideas are poison. They divide humanity into rival political parties, racial groups & religious denominations. I wish that Christians didn't use ideas to condemn each other. All are creatures of God. Right?
Luke 23:43...English has punctuation like commas but the original languages do not. The comma should be placed after the word "today" cuz Jesus said He was going to be in the tomb for 3 days/nights. Jesus would not lie by telling the thief He was going to heaven that day after He said He would be dead in the tomb for 3 days. Which is it? The translators should have placed the comma after the word "today" so that English readers would understand that Jesus promised the thief that someday he would be with Jesus in paradise. This is what Jesus told the thief..."TODAY, I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise."...but until then rest in your grave till that day comes. Jesus never taught the false doctrine of the "immortality of the soul".
This is one of the saddest defenses out there. You guys and the Jehovah's Witnesses. No, Jesus wasn't telling the thief "I'm telling you this today, you will be with me in paradise one day." Because the guy totally needed to be told, while in agonizing pain, "hey, buddy, I'm telling you this today." No duh. And no, it isn't a scribal error. Punctuation doesn't work that way in the Greek. "Jesus would not lie by telling the thief He was going to heaven that day after He said He would be dead in the tomb for 3 days. Which is it?" You're simply assuming your false view of the nature of man which is why you are confused. But it gives further insight into how you guys think Jesus was only a man while on earth, another damnable heresy. Jesus body was in the tomb. Not all that He was. He's 100% man, 100% God. His divinity did not die. Divinity cannot die by nature. He was upholding the universe by the word of His power even while His human body laid in the tomb.
@@answeringadventism Perhaps sad, but true. The best part is that whatever faith the thief had acquired about Jesus was enough for him to ask Jesus for salvation. The thief still died a miserable death but knew he would live again when Jesus returned with His kingdom...not the day he died. Jesus would not lie.
You claim the parable of Jesus about the rich man and Lazarus is literal and Lazarus entered into Abraham's bosoms While some people maybe you too claim that the souls persecuted in rev 6 entered heaven and were under the altar too So heaven is now a place where people enter different parts Some to Abraham's bosoms and some under the altar
I didn’t say that Luke 16 is literal. It doesn’t matter if it’s “literal” or a parable-as parables serve a purpose by using imagery. If it’s a parable, what does the fire represent? The torment? The conscious experience? Why is Jesus using such imagery that’s completely contrary to what the afterlife is like? But, further, you need to study what Christian’s believe about the intermediate state. Abrahams bosom is where the souls of the righteous went prior to the cross because atonement hadn’t been made yet. It was the upper compartment of Hades. The lower compartment is a place of torment. The souls under the altar in Rveelation 6 is post atonement and the work of Christ being completed-which is why many hold to the interpretation that Jesus descended to set the captives in Abraham’s bosom free after he accomplished redemption and took those souls to heaven to now await the resurrection of their body to then be glorified on the New Earth. But I’m not sure how any of that deals with the Hebrew grammar of Daniel 2…
@@answeringadventism is there any scriptural back up proving that souls before Christ who were righteous went into Abraham's bosoms or there being an upper or lower compartment
@@answeringadventism you might also say you don't agree that like 16 is literal....I still have the video of you and two other guys when one of them said it was literal and you agreed with them
I smell Catholicism here. Intermediate states. And we are pulling that from the parables and not clear scriptures. This person decides that part of Scripture is symbolic and that person decides this portion is symbolic. And into the quagmire go the unsuspecting. May God guide and teach sincere souls to the truth of His word.
If not literal, why wouldn't Jesus say "and Lazarus died and when the resurrection happened, angels carried him", why would Jesus use half-truths or lies to explain something if he can explain with the same simplicity using pure truth? Why would Jesus lie to teach something and make it ambiguous?
Revelation 1;18 Behold I was dead but now IAM Alive Again And Forevermore‼️A Miracle and The Worker of Miracles He's The Wonderworker of Nazereth Himself The Godman Himself Jesus Christ He Is The Eternal Living Word of The Eternal Living Self Existing IAM The IAM That IAM That Before all Creation Was IAM That Is Who He Is
🦁🐑In Isaiah 7:14 He Is The Immanuel In Isaiah 9 6 He Is The Mighty God In Isaiah 40:3 He Is The LORD Written about Here a voice crying out in the wilderness Make a straight Path For The LORD Jesus Christ Is The LORD The Almighty The IAM That is That Was That Is To Come Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ Is Jehovah God Almighty Come in the Flesh Immanuel God With Us🦁✝️🕊
I could be thinking of Mormonism? I was in that church for awhile and left but thought Bible said Jesus went and visited somewhere when his body was in the tomb.
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Watch the full stream here: th-cam.com/video/Q8kF9iJNHHA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tYHYgLOJETjj6w3O
I watched this live, it's a good discussion.
A funny thing happened during it that night. I was outside and looked up to see a stream of new stars. It was SpaceX launching twenty plus satellites. It made me jump at first because of all the prophecy I've been listening to. ✌️🤠
Blessings Brother 🙏
That's funny the satellites.😂
@@stephencoe2231 A couple of days later they launched even more. The first night the set moved "out" where the second set zoomed in a line eastwards.
It was very cool. 😎👍
It's funny you should put up this video right now, because I was judt thinking about this very topic a few days ago. (Whether that's coincidence or Divine Providence, you be the judge.) However, the passage that was on my mind was not any of them mentioned here; it was Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus. I know Adventist apologists will insist that was only a parable (which may or may not be true), but even if it is, it still poses a huge problem for their "state of the dead" teaching. The story clearly has Lazarus going straight to heaven when he dies, and the rich man going straight to hell. The rich man is conscious in hell and asks Abraham to send someone back to warn his five brothers who are still alive. This clearly contradicts the Adventist teaching on multiple counts. And Jesus would NEVER use an untruth to illustrate a truth. He wouldn't tell a parable of people going directly to heaven or hell at death if it doesn't happen in real life. To call that a "lie" or even a "lie of the devil," as Adventists often do, is not only false but blasphemous because it is effecively declaring the Lord Jesus to be a liar and an agent of the devil. It even borders on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told the Jewish leaders that accused Him of casting out demons by Satan's power.
And before any Adventists bring up John 11: 11-14 in the comments, I want to make the point that Jesus is clearly speaking metaphorically in that passage, and we know this because the text tells us so. When Jesus said that Lazarus was "asleep," the Disciples thought He was speaking of literal sleep, and Jesus corrected them and said that Lazarus was actually dead. If death was literally a sleep as SDAs claim, then Jesus wouldn't have corrected the Disciples on that.
I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll save it for now. Once again, Myles, I have finally broken through and deprogrammed another part of the cultic brainwashing I received as an Adventist.
Yes, even if Luke 16 is a parable, that doesn’t solve the dilemma for them as parables use imagery to convey truths.
What does the fire represent? What does the torment represent? What does the conscious experience represent? Why is Jesus using all of those things to convey something that is apparently quite the opposite-an annihilation into nothingness with no conscious experience.
@@answeringadventism Again, I give glory to God for helping me to deprogram that part of the cultic brainwashing I got in Adventism.
@@answeringadventism And what imagery does going straight to heaven or hell at death represent? Going to heaven is going to heaven and going to hell is going to hell; I don't know how you can make that out to simply be "symbolic."
Do you know, what the rich man went to hell for? He went to hell, because he had only good things in life. This is the reason given by Abraham. So the rich man was tormented because he had an easy life, and Lazarus was comforted because he had a miserable life.
So we have 3 options:
1. We enjoy our good lives in prosperity as long as we can, and know, that when we die, we will be tormented forever in hell.
2. We sell everything we have and give it to the poor and live miserable lives now - like Lazarus - so that when we die, we will be comforted in Abraham's bosom.
3. Jesus did not mean to give us an accurate depiction of the afterlife here, but rather wanted to show us something different. What exactly, I don't know. Maybe, that the miserable aren't all under God's curse like the Jews thought (John 9:2). Maybe the rich man represents the Jews or the Jewish elite, who had received much knowledge from God, and Lazarus represents the Gentiles or the common Jewish man, who hungered for the truth, but his hunger was not satisfied in life. Maybe the parable is just that - a parable.
I loved how Jesus dealt with people it was cool! At times I couldn’t help laughing!
Mayb my dream w the 4 creatures ox man lion eagle was connected to spiritual and conscious? I just started listen to this video soo I did not get enough information yet
1. 2 Corinthians 5:8 is taken out of context.
2. Who did Jesus lie to; the thief or Mary, both, or is there grammar that changes the context?
3. Ecclesiastes 9:5
4. What happens when creation goes in reverse?
5. Study “spirit” in the Greek (pneuma) and apply. There is more than one definition.
6. What does death/die/dead really mean?
7. Look at Jesus as our example of what resurrection means. If people are already in Heaven, what is the need to get our earthly bodies back? At that point hasn’t the corruptible put on incorruption?
Right, nothing that deals with the Hebrew grammar of Daniel which was the focus. Instead, setting scripture against itself.
The guest brought up 2 Corinthians 5:8 to further his stance concerning the state of the dead. Not only was 2 Corinthians 5:8 taken out of context, but it was misquoted too. This misquote I once firmly subscribed to until I was challenged to reread that bit of scripture and the surrounding context of it. Now that I have read it for what it states, I will respectfully challenge those to reread, with upmost care, the scripture and it’s surrounding context.
@@answeringadventism I agree with most things you say but I can’t agree with the state of the dead. What does it mean “ The dead know not anything “.
Have you ever been around a dying person?
This has nothing to do with SDA Nothing at all but dealing with death I can only agree with that the text that the living know they shall die but the dead know not anything.
@@elviraroberts876he's not a theologian.
@@elviraroberts876 Don't stop with the "dead know nothing." Be consistent and carry your thought all the way through the entire verse. If you want to claim the verse is a commentary on the state of a soul after death, then you also have to say they "have no reward" after death "for the memory of them is forgotten" after death.
That means no heaven, no nothing for a dead person at all. Everything is wiped away.
Or...maybe the entire passage is not a commentary on the state of a soul after death. It is simply an "under the sun" observation about the fact that once a person is dead, they cease to have anything to do with life on earth.
I think in Dan 7:16 Dan is still talking anthropologically. When you are really grieved you feel it in "the midst" of your body. He may not be giving us an actual clear understanding of the actual nature and exact makeup of the parts of a humans body and soul.
Ideas are valuable in practical matters. In matters of human relationship, ideas are poison. They divide humanity into rival political parties, racial groups & religious denominations. I wish that Christians didn't use ideas to condemn each other. All are creatures of God. Right?
Luke 23:43...English has punctuation like commas but the original languages do not. The comma should be placed after the word "today" cuz Jesus said He was going to be in the tomb for 3 days/nights. Jesus would not lie by telling the thief He was going to heaven that day after He said He would be dead in the tomb for 3 days. Which is it? The translators should have placed the comma after the word "today" so that English readers would understand that Jesus promised the thief that someday he would be with Jesus in paradise. This is what Jesus told the thief..."TODAY, I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise."...but until then rest in your grave till that day comes. Jesus never taught the false doctrine of the "immortality of the soul".
This is one of the saddest defenses out there. You guys and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
No, Jesus wasn't telling the thief "I'm telling you this today, you will be with me in paradise one day."
Because the guy totally needed to be told, while in agonizing pain, "hey, buddy, I'm telling you this today." No duh.
And no, it isn't a scribal error. Punctuation doesn't work that way in the Greek.
"Jesus would not lie by telling the thief He was going to heaven that day after He said He would be dead in the tomb for 3 days. Which is it?"
You're simply assuming your false view of the nature of man which is why you are confused. But it gives further insight into how you guys think Jesus was only a man while on earth, another damnable heresy. Jesus body was in the tomb. Not all that He was. He's 100% man, 100% God. His divinity did not die. Divinity cannot die by nature. He was upholding the universe by the word of His power even while His human body laid in the tomb.
@@answeringadventism Perhaps sad, but true. The best part is that whatever faith the thief had acquired about Jesus was enough for him to ask Jesus for salvation. The thief still died a miserable death but knew he would live again when Jesus returned with His kingdom...not the day he died. Jesus would not lie.
@@j.vincent3625 I agree
@@j.vincent3625 i agree mate
It’s hard man, to find the logical truth
You claim the parable of Jesus about the rich man and Lazarus is literal and Lazarus entered into Abraham's bosoms
While some people maybe you too claim that the souls persecuted in rev 6 entered heaven and were under the altar too
So heaven is now a place where people enter different parts
Some to Abraham's bosoms and some under the altar
I didn’t say that Luke 16 is literal. It doesn’t matter if it’s “literal” or a parable-as parables serve a purpose by using imagery.
If it’s a parable, what does the fire represent? The torment? The conscious experience? Why is Jesus using such imagery that’s completely contrary to what the afterlife is like?
But, further, you need to study what Christian’s believe about the intermediate state.
Abrahams bosom is where the souls of the righteous went prior to the cross because atonement hadn’t been made yet. It was the upper compartment of Hades. The lower compartment is a place of torment.
The souls under the altar in Rveelation 6 is post atonement and the work of Christ being completed-which is why many hold to the interpretation that Jesus descended to set the captives in Abraham’s bosom free after he accomplished redemption and took those souls to heaven to now await the resurrection of their body to then be glorified on the New Earth.
But I’m not sure how any of that deals with the Hebrew grammar of Daniel 2…
@@answeringadventism is there any scriptural back up proving that souls before Christ who were righteous went into Abraham's bosoms or there being an upper or lower compartment
@@answeringadventism you might also say you don't agree that like 16 is literal....I still have the video of you and two other guys when one of them said it was literal and you agreed with them
I smell Catholicism here. Intermediate states. And we are pulling that from the parables and not clear scriptures. This person decides that part of Scripture is symbolic and that person decides this portion is symbolic. And into the quagmire go the unsuspecting. May God guide and teach sincere souls to the truth of His word.
If not literal, why wouldn't Jesus say "and Lazarus died and when the resurrection happened, angels carried him", why would Jesus use half-truths or lies to explain something if he can explain with the same simplicity using pure truth? Why would Jesus lie to teach something and make it ambiguous?
To show them? Thought I read something like that
Revelation 1;18 Behold I was dead but now IAM Alive Again And Forevermore‼️A Miracle and The Worker of Miracles He's The Wonderworker of Nazereth Himself The Godman Himself Jesus Christ He Is The Eternal Living Word of The Eternal Living Self Existing IAM The IAM That IAM That Before all Creation Was IAM That Is Who He Is
🦁🐑In Isaiah 7:14 He Is The Immanuel In Isaiah 9 6 He Is The Mighty God In Isaiah 40:3 He Is The LORD Written about Here a voice crying out in the wilderness Make a straight Path For The LORD Jesus Christ Is The LORD
The Almighty The IAM That is That Was That Is To Come Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ Is Jehovah God Almighty Come in the Flesh Immanuel God With Us🦁✝️🕊
1st corinthians 15 50-58 this explains how
I could be thinking of Mormonism? I was in that church for awhile and left but thought Bible said Jesus went and visited somewhere when his body was in the tomb.
Thought he visited somewhere?
Did Jesus when he was in the tomb also visit spirit world w some that were locked up ?
No. His death was a announcement to the demons of His victory