I'm so glad to see that even a master baker occasionally stumbles -- I like it that you went with the video anyway. FWIW, I never use any spray on my proofing containers -- I spread just enough olive oil around the sides and bottom to keep the dough from sticking. I tend to always bake high-hydration doughs anyway, so maybe that makes it easier. Thanks for another excellent and candid piece.
I have been ordering Sir Lancelot flower in 50lb bags from Amazon. So far I ordered 3 bags. The price is very reasonable per pound. I put the flour in paper bags 2kg each, close flaps with tape and vacuum pack them in plastc. 13:52 bags. Then when I open it I let the flour through the sieve to loose and aerate it before making bread dough. I have about 140 lb and planning to buy some more for when SHTF
King arthur is the most readily available, quality flour available where I am in the US. Typically I'm making more pizza than sourdough loaves these days but I find the AP works just as well as the BF for about $1 cheaper per bag. Strangely the AP seems to form a tighter, elastic gluten structure compared to the BF. Also managed to get some sir lancelot from a local bagel shop lately and to me, it almost behaves like a combo of the AP and BF.
Wow. A beginner may not have realized the baking spray was to blame. I hope Beginner Bread Bakers see this video. Thx for doing this and sharing. 👍👍👍👍👍
No longer use KAF. Really enjoy using Bobs Red Mill unbleached flour now. It’s about the same price wise, and am happy with results. Makes a lovely bread.
I always use the KA 12.7% bread flour. . Although sometimes, if I am making a high percentage (40+% maybe) wholegrain, or rye flour bread I will add 10-15 gms of VWG to the dough.
I've done some experimenting with adding VWG to bread when using low or no gluten flour, like rye and almond flour. I use about 4 parts rye to one part VWG. Because I'm using King Arthur All Purpose flour, which has a lower gluten content than bread flour, I'll use VWG when adding rye flour to my bread. So, it ends up being 80% KA AP and 16% Rye and 4% VWG.
According to the internet: King Arthur Sir Lancelot has 14.2% protein King Arthur Bread Flour has 12.7% protein King Arthur All Purpose has 11.7% protein
I wonder if there’s a difference between BF and the Special Patent which I have been using for the last 3 years. Both seem to be 12.7% protein. SP is said to be ".50% Ash | Malted, Enriched", BF is "Unbleached hard red wheat flour, enzyme* or malted barley flour", doesn't seem to be enriched. No nutrition label for SP, no ash content mentioned for BF. Maybe there's some difference... SP comes out much cheaper in 50lb bags...
Interesting experiment! I'm thinking, since the all purpose loaf has less protein didn't it ferment a little bit more than the higher protein loaves? Maybe you can see it in the somewhat tighter crumb and the darker brown crust? It seems to have more overall volume too. Thank you Sune!
50% KA organic bread flour and 50% KA white whole wheat at 72% hydration is my current favorite, with 10% of a 100% hydration dark rye starter and 2% salt. I autolyse for 1 1/2 hours before adding the salt and starter. Yum!!! Thanks Food Geek for all your tests and recipes, they've been a big help to me in designing what works for me. (50% Food Geek + 50% Bake With Jack)
Ahhh you confirmed to me the oil in bulk ferment issue. TY. I had all sorts of issues recently when I put dough in bucket, realized I didn't put a spray (not commercial) of oil in first. So I just squirted on top then turned dough over. Clearly I did too much cause it was a pump oil mister that's not great at delivery. I couldn't get dough to even fold and stick to self on preshape OR final. It was horrible looking with it looking almost like a roll inside. 🤣. I'm not using any oils in containers after that embarrassment. I don't use KA flour anymore unless I have a large holiday sale pickup (free shipping). I use some local (Pacific NW) mill options for most lately. But is adventure with hydration. So I use your bread calculator and start lower hydration cause I use 60% mature dough starter. Then once comfortable I then increase hydration or make levain first. To get a 70-80% final hydration.
KA Bread Flour has been my go to flour for bread back when I was using a bread machine long before I discovered your channel and sourdough. Anyone want to buy a used bread machine? Best of all both the bread flour and the KA AP are available in this small town in Arizona at both our Walmart and Safeway stores.
I think the moral of the story is, don't use baking spray. If it separates then you have to ask yourself, what exactly is in it? Just use a drop of olive oil and a brush, much safer and surely healthier too.
But that was my point, if it needs mixing what is in it? Oil shouldn't need mixing so I think it's best to use a real food rather than a processed one. The spray likely contains an emulsifier of some kind and it's that which probably caused the problem. It's debatable whether these are good for health anyway. Love your videos by the way. One thing I'd love to be better at is shaping wholegrain doughs....
When you add any fat it slows fermentation. Ergo your dough with more fat (the baking spray) was less fermented than the rest and had under developed gluten that was too tight and you split it shaping to hard too soon 🤷🏻♂️
@@joshcatton8686 I don't think this is true because the fat wasn't really in the dough and foodgeek always uses baking spray in his containers without any problems. The problem was that the substances in the spray that had separated from the oil had coated the dough so as he shaped it, the dough failed to adhere to itself and hence the separation. As I said, why use fake foods in an otherwise genuine product? Just wipe with a little olive oil on some kitchen paper or just wet the inside of the container. Much safer and healthier too.
@@joshcatton8686 I have to disagree with you. The spray stayed on the outside of the dough. It did not get absorbed into the dough, so there was no change in fermentation. If you look at the video, it splits in the middle, so it's basically making a donut shape because the dough is being pushed up through the center.
I really like King Arthur's special patent flour. 12.7% protein is right between Galahad and Lancelot, which seems to be about perfect for strong but manageable bread. I just bought a 50 lb bag for $22 at Restaurant Depot. If you live in the US near a Restaurant Depot you can get a daily pass for free - which makes things extremely affordable
It's something you usually use to coat your pans when baking, but I found out that it works wonders on getting your dough out of the bulking container :)
I’ve been using KA high gluten (not Lancelot) with good results; sometimes 50/50 with Manitoba. I wonder how its high gluten compares to Lancelot’s high gluten?
Was it the baking spray or that you worked it too much? There were multiple times that you should have stopped but kept going until it split. Almost like you wanted it to. Why did you skip autolyse? Isn’t that where gluten formation occurs?
This comment is the actual gem here 👏 Thats exactly my experience with my local 14.5% bread flour. I was yelling at my screen “it’s shaped stop playing with it” 😆 That high gluten dough is like a rubber band ball; you make one cut and it all unravels. When it splits like that, leave it another 20-30min and the gluten (wet protein) bonds reform. Bread Code dude show this in his test when he mix the crap out of that dough again & again but still made a nicely shaped loaf.
I stopped using any oil or baking spray years ago. Its just not necessary. If your dough is well developed, hardly any of it should stick to the bowl or container.
"Sir Lancelot" is not even available from KA's web site -- 8n the US at least. The high gluten is, so I wonder what the difference may be, if any. I usually use the bread flour and their medium rye at 75% hydration as you did.
I just did a quick search, and the Sir Lancelot is available on Amazon. Another commenter said they've ordered it from Amazon 3 times already and it's very reasonably priced.
I use king author...its thr only one avaliable to me...i ordered a high protein from amazon at ridiculous price. Wasnt worth it.....besides i should be buying in 25 pound sacks if i could find it.
@@Foodgeek With 20% starter at 100% hydration, the difference in total hydration of the dough is going to be negligible. The gluten content, even if it hadn't been spent in the starter, would also be a negligible portion of the total for an experiment like this. But some people like to eliminate as many variables as possible, I guess.
Experiment time! Could you try this recipe I developed? It is a cross of biga and sourdough with the benefit of less hassle: **Unique Sourdough Bread Recipe:** *Ingredients:* - 50g sourdough starter - 500g water - 1kg bakers flour - 4g yeast - 200g water - 20g salt *Instructions:* 1. In a large mixing bowl, combine 50g of sourdough starter with 500g of water. Stir well to incorporate. 2. Add 1kg of bakers flour to the mixture and mix with a spoon handle until a shaggy mass of dough forms. 3. Allow the dough to rest at room temperature for 1 hour, then transfer it to the refrigerator for 24 hours. 4. After 24 hours, remove the dough from the fridge and add 4g of yeast and 200g of water. Knead the dough well to fully incorporate the ingredients. 5. Incorporate 20g of salt into the dough and continue kneading until well combined. 6. Allow the dough to rest for 30 minutes, then perform one lamination fold to enhance gluten development. 7. After an additional hour, divide the dough into two equal portions. Pre-shape each portion and let them rest for 15 minutes. 8. Shape the dough into its final form and place it in a banneton for proofing for about 30 minutes. 9. Preheat your oven to the desired temperature for baking bread. 10. Once proofed, carefully transfer the loaves onto a baking sheet or stone and bake according to your preferred method until golden brown and crusty. 11. Allow the bread to cool before slicing and enjoying your freshly baked sourdough loaves!
@@hu_b Taste wise I don't see any difference. Texture is quite similar and the fact that sourdough ferments the dough overnight makes it taste similar. The yeast at the end is to make it rise deterministically within shorter time of only 1 to 2 hours makes it easier to bake on demand when needed providing you have a 24 hours fermented sourdough /biga in the fridge.
I've noticed in the last year or so that my KA flour hasn't been as strong as it was before. I'm wondering if something happened to their wheat supply and they had to switch to an inferior wheat. Maybe their grower went out of business or something. I still like KA better than other brands that are readily available in my stores, though.
No, i don't use KAB products. I avoid them. Thats because they observe "Pride month" and send their entire email list helpful tips on how to celebrate "Pride month". They also took King Arthur off the company emblem. So no more KAB for me.
The Ridge sponsored this video. Check out their cool gear at ridge.com/foodgeek and get up to 30% off until December 20th 😁
I'm so glad to see that even a master baker occasionally stumbles -- I like it that you went with the video anyway.
FWIW, I never use any spray on my proofing containers -- I spread just enough olive oil around the sides and bottom to keep the dough from sticking. I tend to always bake high-hydration doughs anyway, so maybe that makes it easier.
Thanks for another excellent and candid piece.
I have been ordering Sir Lancelot flower in 50lb bags from Amazon. So far I ordered 3 bags. The price is very reasonable per pound. I put the flour in paper bags 2kg each, close flaps with tape and vacuum pack them in plastc. 13:52 bags. Then when I open it I let the flour through the sieve to loose and aerate it before making bread dough. I have about 140 lb and planning to buy some more for when SHTF
Good plan for the next global shutdown when we can't find flour again for three months!
King arthur is the most readily available, quality flour available where I am in the US. Typically I'm making more pizza than sourdough loaves these days but I find the AP works just as well as the BF for about $1 cheaper per bag. Strangely the AP seems to form a tighter, elastic gluten structure compared to the BF. Also managed to get some sir lancelot from a local bagel shop lately and to me, it almost behaves like a combo of the AP and BF.
Wow. A beginner may not have realized the baking spray was to blame. I hope Beginner Bread Bakers see this video. Thx for doing this and sharing. 👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks :) It took me a while, too, but the final bread was fine. No doubt the crumb would have looked differently :)
No longer use KAF. Really enjoy using Bobs Red Mill unbleached flour now. It’s about the same price wise, and am happy with results. Makes a lovely bread.
Really liked see this comparison. Plus enjoyed the formatting with 3 screens at once. I always learn from your presentations.🤩
Thanks Sune. I always learn something valuable from your experiments.
I always use the KA 12.7% bread flour. . Although sometimes, if I am making a high percentage (40+% maybe) wholegrain, or rye flour bread I will add 10-15 gms of VWG to the dough.
I've done some experimenting with adding VWG to bread when using low or no gluten flour, like rye and almond flour. I use about 4 parts rye to one part VWG. Because I'm using King Arthur All Purpose flour, which has a lower gluten content than bread flour, I'll use VWG when adding rye flour to my bread. So, it ends up being 80% KA AP and 16% Rye and 4% VWG.
Yes I use King Arthur Flour. I use their AP flour, Bread flour and 00 pizza flour but I also use Caputo pizzeria flour and All Trumps flour.
According to the internet:
King Arthur Sir Lancelot has 14.2% protein
King Arthur Bread Flour has 12.7% protein
King Arthur All Purpose has 11.7% protein
And I make sourdough bread with 10% protein whole wheat, go figure.
I wonder if there’s a difference between BF and the Special Patent which I have been using for the last 3 years. Both seem to be 12.7% protein. SP is said to be ".50% Ash | Malted, Enriched", BF is "Unbleached hard red wheat flour, enzyme* or malted barley flour", doesn't seem to be enriched. No nutrition label for SP, no ash content mentioned for BF. Maybe there's some difference... SP comes out much cheaper in 50lb bags...
Interesting experiment! I'm thinking, since the all purpose loaf has less protein didn't it ferment a little bit more than the higher protein loaves? Maybe you can see it in the somewhat tighter crumb and the darker brown crust? It seems to have more overall volume too. Thank you Sune!
50% KA organic bread flour and 50% KA white whole wheat at 72% hydration is my current favorite, with 10% of a 100% hydration dark rye starter and 2% salt. I autolyse for 1 1/2 hours before adding the salt and starter. Yum!!! Thanks Food Geek for all your tests and recipes, they've been a big help to me in designing what works for me. (50% Food Geek + 50% Bake With Jack)
I have used all three. I normally use bread flour for white bread, Sir Lancelot for bagels and AP flour for soft, pull apart rolls.
Missed this channel. Glad it’s back in my feed!
Ahhh you confirmed to me the oil in bulk ferment issue. TY. I had all sorts of issues recently when I put dough in bucket, realized I didn't put a spray (not commercial) of oil in first. So I just squirted on top then turned dough over. Clearly I did too much cause it was a pump oil mister that's not great at delivery. I couldn't get dough to even fold and stick to self on preshape OR final. It was horrible looking with it looking almost like a roll inside. 🤣. I'm not using any oils in containers after that embarrassment. I don't use KA flour anymore unless I have a large holiday sale pickup (free shipping). I use some local (Pacific NW) mill options for most lately. But is adventure with hydration. So I use your bread calculator and start lower hydration cause I use 60% mature dough starter. Then once comfortable I then increase hydration or make levain first. To get a 70-80% final hydration.
Next I'd like to see you test out different Caputo flours.
That's a good idea. Which ones would like like to see compared? :)
@@Foodgeek Caputo Manitoba Oro could be the control, then Caputo 00 flour and if they have an all purpose or cake flour, you might test those
KA Bread Flour has been my go to flour for bread back when I was using a bread machine long before I discovered your channel and sourdough. Anyone want to buy a used bread machine? Best of all both the bread flour and the KA AP are available in this small town in Arizona at both our Walmart and Safeway stores.
I think the moral of the story is, don't use baking spray. If it separates then you have to ask yourself, what exactly is in it? Just use a drop of olive oil and a brush, much safer and surely healthier too.
It wasn't properly mixed 😊
But that was my point, if it needs mixing what is in it? Oil shouldn't need mixing so I think it's best to use a real food rather than a processed one. The spray likely contains an emulsifier of some kind and it's that which probably caused the problem. It's debatable whether these are good for health anyway.
Love your videos by the way. One thing I'd love to be better at is shaping wholegrain doughs....
When you add any fat it slows fermentation. Ergo your dough with more fat (the baking spray) was less fermented than the rest and had under developed gluten that was too tight and you split it shaping to hard too soon 🤷🏻♂️
@@joshcatton8686 I don't think this is true because the fat wasn't really in the dough and foodgeek always uses baking spray in his containers without any problems. The problem was that the substances in the spray that had separated from the oil had coated the dough so as he shaped it, the dough failed to adhere to itself and hence the separation. As I said, why use fake foods in an otherwise genuine product? Just wipe with a little olive oil on some kitchen paper or just wet the inside of the container. Much safer and healthier too.
@@joshcatton8686 I have to disagree with you. The spray stayed on the outside of the dough. It did not get absorbed into the dough, so there was no change in fermentation. If you look at the video, it splits in the middle, so it's basically making a donut shape because the dough is being pushed up through the center.
I really like King Arthur's special patent flour. 12.7% protein is right between Galahad and Lancelot, which seems to be about perfect for strong but manageable bread. I just bought a 50 lb bag for $22 at Restaurant Depot. If you live in the US near a Restaurant Depot you can get a daily pass for free - which makes things extremely affordable
I’m a beginner. What is baking spray? This would add a film of oil to container? I didn’t know this was necessary. Thanks.
It's something you usually use to coat your pans when baking, but I found out that it works wonders on getting your dough out of the bulking container :)
Never thought of using my own cooking spray wrt spraying my bulk proofing containers. Is yours like mine, equal parts oil and water or different ?
I’ve been using KA high gluten (not Lancelot) with good results; sometimes 50/50 with Manitoba. I wonder how its high gluten compares to Lancelot’s high gluten?
How long can flour last stored in cool dry area? Meaning without going bad
Nothing days bread like electric guitars hanging on the wall! Thanks for the detailed information!
Was it the baking spray or that you worked it too much? There were multiple times that you should have stopped but kept going until it split. Almost like you wanted it to. Why did you skip autolyse? Isn’t that where gluten formation occurs?
This comment is the actual gem here 👏
Thats exactly my experience with my local 14.5% bread flour. I was yelling at my screen “it’s shaped stop playing with it” 😆
That high gluten dough is like a rubber band ball; you make one cut and it all unravels.
When it splits like that, leave it another 20-30min and the gluten (wet protein) bonds reform.
Bread Code dude show this in his test when he mix the crap out of that dough again & again but still made a nicely shaped loaf.
Where would T65 fit among these 3 flours? I recently found as source for imported French T65!
I stopped using any oil or baking spray years ago. Its just not necessary. If your dough is well developed, hardly any of it should stick to the bowl or container.
"Sir Lancelot" is not even available from KA's web site -- 8n the US at least. The high gluten is, so I wonder what the difference may be, if any. I usually use the bread flour and their medium rye at 75% hydration as you did.
I just did a quick search, and the Sir Lancelot is available on Amazon. Another commenter said they've ordered it from Amazon 3 times already and it's very reasonably priced.
Beautiful 💖
Hi I am a subscriber. Am in Denmark and would like to try danish flour. Can you recommend brand & type for rustic breads? Thanks!
My favorites are Kornby Mølle Hvede No. 1 and Kornby Mølle Rug No. 3 as the whole grain :)
@@Foodgeek thank you sir!
I use king author...its thr only one avaliable to me...i ordered a high protein from amazon at ridiculous price. Wasnt worth it.....besides i should be buying in 25 pound sacks if i could find it.
I buy the K. A. keto wheat flour.
Good experiment. Question: do you use the respective flours to feed the starter for the experiment, or just use your normal starter?
Just my normal starter. The gluten is spent in the starter anyway. I guess it change the perceived hydration :)
@@Foodgeek With 20% starter at 100% hydration, the difference in total hydration of the dough is going to be negligible. The gluten content, even if it hadn't been spent in the starter, would also be a negligible portion of the total for an experiment like this. But some people like to eliminate as many variables as possible, I guess.
Wish it were affordable
Experiment time! Could you try this recipe I developed? It is a cross of biga and sourdough with the benefit of less hassle:
**Unique Sourdough Bread Recipe:**
*Ingredients:*
- 50g sourdough starter
- 500g water
- 1kg bakers flour
- 4g yeast
- 200g water
- 20g salt
*Instructions:*
1. In a large mixing bowl, combine 50g of sourdough starter with 500g of water. Stir well to incorporate.
2. Add 1kg of bakers flour to the mixture and mix with a spoon handle until a shaggy mass of dough forms.
3. Allow the dough to rest at room temperature for 1 hour, then transfer it to the refrigerator for 24 hours.
4. After 24 hours, remove the dough from the fridge and add 4g of yeast and 200g of water. Knead the dough well to fully incorporate the ingredients.
5. Incorporate 20g of salt into the dough and continue kneading until well combined.
6. Allow the dough to rest for 30 minutes, then perform one lamination fold to enhance gluten development.
7. After an additional hour, divide the dough into two equal portions. Pre-shape each portion and let them rest for 15 minutes.
8. Shape the dough into its final form and place it in a banneton for proofing for about 30 minutes.
9. Preheat your oven to the desired temperature for baking bread.
10. Once proofed, carefully transfer the loaves onto a baking sheet or stone and bake according to your preferred method until golden brown and crusty.
11. Allow the bread to cool before slicing and enjoying your freshly baked sourdough loaves!
How do your results using yeast and sourdough compare with using just sourdough culture?
@@hu_b Taste wise I don't see any difference. Texture is quite similar and the fact that sourdough ferments the dough overnight makes it taste similar. The yeast at the end is to make it rise deterministically within shorter time of only 1 to 2 hours makes it easier to bake on demand when needed providing you have a 24 hours fermented sourdough /biga in the fridge.
I would also say in the last fee months my K.A. HAS BEEN VERY VERY WET...EVEN CUTTING THE WATER HASNT STOPPED IT...
I've noticed in the last year or so that my KA flour hasn't been as strong as it was before. I'm wondering if something happened to their wheat supply and they had to switch to an inferior wheat. Maybe their grower went out of business or something. I still like KA better than other brands that are readily available in my stores, though.
No, i don't use KAB products. I avoid them. Thats because they observe "Pride month" and send their entire email list helpful tips on how to celebrate "Pride month". They also took King Arthur off the company emblem. So no more KAB for me.
They encouraged you to celebrate pride month? How did they find out that was your orientation?