See H&K solved this problem a different way, if you damage the brass so badly on ejection it can’t be reloaded you’ll just have to use brand new brass every time.
@@paulvenn4447 no dice, a Brass Gollum myself that which I cannot reload for it I built a small home furnace. I take your dented HK91 brass and the Mini 14 brass flung so far it is lost to its original shooter and melt it down into random projects of art.
The Wilson internal neck reamer is designed to be used on fired cases. This means that if the case has already been internally reamed and you get a doughnut and still using the same barrel and chamber as when the case was initially reamed then you will not ream additional material from the neck wall. You will clean most of the carbon off but still have trace amount left, rereaming the neck will remove the doughnut material but this would be a one time only solution as you will be removing flowed material from the case web forward - same as as length trimming material source.
Keith, I follow you for quite a while because of your analytical approach to shooting issues - Compliment!! I am myself concerned with the donut issue(s): I found that there are obstructions at the base of the necks of often used cartridges AND also with brand new ones when the necks are opened with a mandrel (f.e. when the factory necks are too tight). The first mentioned phenomenon is caused by brass flow forward as everybody and literature is saying. The latter phenomenon is - I think - due to the support of the neck at the shoulder junction which coincides with the observation that the steeper the shoulder angel (all WSM cartridges) the more pronounced the obtrusion is versus f.e. 30.06 with its flat shoulder In this case I was successful with annealing the neck-shoulder section and consecutive mandrel procedure. The donuts of often used cartridges I successfully remove with handheld reamers the brass fixed in L.E. Wilson case holders. A usefull tool to detect donuts is a measuring pin in the corresponding diam. I buy them in 0,01mm (0,0004") graduation.
There are two other options not mentioned to ironing out that doughnut. Full length sizing the case or using a Lee collet die. I'm a bit surprised this wasn't mention.
The sharper the shoulder of a case like the Ackley improves 40° shoulder , the faster the donut will form. Case length may not increase much but the brass has to flow somewhere.
@@suntzu5836 Really like the Lee collet dies & have one for every caliber I load for. read a post somewhere that they can generate enough pressure on the case neck to get the brass to flow.
Yes doughnuts do cause flight deviation, I have a ton of LC LR that has been loaded dozens of times and the "doughnut" become more present I noticed erratic fliers.
Keith, I think one factor to mention is the clearance between the loaded cartridge neck O.D. and the chamber neck I.D. The bare minimum is enough to let the bullet go. Benchresters cut it to 1 or 2 mils. But 4-6 mills or more is much safer, unless you check the neck with each reloading. You can achieve this clearance with reamer design or neck turning the brass. If the clearance is tight, you are set up for a bad experience with a doughnut, if it comes along. Better have some good safety glasses on, if that bullet isn't easily let go. By the way, special reamers are available for increasing only the chamber neck size.
Interesting. I reasoned out the idea of not sizing the necks on my brass all the way to the shoulder junction while trying to sort out my donut problem that I just discovered on my 223 Lapua brass. I'm shooting 75g ELDMs that seat the boat tail below the case shoulder junction so short seating the bullet to avoid the neck shoulder junction is not an option. As I backed off of the depth of the bushing a bit at a time. I finally found a spot where I don't feel the donut when seating a bullet, and the loaded round cycles in and out of the chamber with no problem. Now I wonder if I will need to go one size smaller on the bushing to compensate for less neck tension by virtue of the fact that I'm sizing less of the neck than before.
Don't seat the boattail to bullet body junction past the shoulder/ neck junction of the case...You'll never have a problem. After 25 reloadings of 300 cases I've never had a 'donut'. I read this a few years ago in the Accurateshooter forum when i started loading for the 6 5x47l.
@@Loojmemhav Boattail to bullet body junction at the case neck junction to mag length or .005 off the lands which ever comes first. This your full range of seating depth. A node WILL be found within this range. It's not a good idea seat in the lands. We chase the node not lands. Smetimes that means seating a bit deeper.
I disagree with this. There are a lot of variables, but seating past the neck-shoulder junction works well with some combinations (not every case design forms donuts - the x47 and 6BR/Dasher cases are a great example of this). On the other hand, you can be far into the case and still have the bullet touching the lands depending on chamber specs and bullet selection. Careful measurement and bullet selection is important. Not every chamber and bullet combination is a winner.
@@Loojmemhav I'm pretty sure. If we're talking .308/Creed size cases in a short action with AICS/AWS mags this is about the limit. I loaded .308 inside AICS mags
Thank you for the video. You mentioned something about copper to brass being a somewhat negative association? Then you showed some type of little bottle of something. Can you please expound on that?
I have some 1x fired LC 556 range brass that has these bumps just below the neck right above the shoulder. Seen this on 1x fired arms cor 223 brass too! Could this be someone's chamber? It was definitely there before I FL sized them. The arms cor 223 brass fired fine but never seen this on LC brass. I like pretty ammo and it makes it look funky.
Winnings? 3 consecutive years on the podium at the US F-class Nationals netted almost half enough money to cover the projectiles used. I kid you not...
In short, it won't. Because of tool deflection, you need to cut the inside and outside at the same time. This machine works best when taking at least 7 tenths to a full thou off of both sides. Great on the first cut, but necks will get uneven if you take too little or too thin if too much..... @@winninginthewind
Depends on the brass, he shoots 6mm Dasher super pricey brass. Heck I shoot .308 and I’m still reloading brass from the first year of Obama. Waste not want not. Think of a situation, maybe a supply chain issue or a spate of panic buying wherein you could easily afford something but there simply wasn’t any to buy you’d want to have these skills for refurbishing brass.
See H&K solved this problem a different way, if you damage the brass so badly on ejection it can’t be reloaded you’ll just have to use brand new brass every time.
😂
Fluted chambers defeats range goblins lol
@@paulvenn4447 no dice, a Brass Gollum myself that which I cannot reload for it I built a small home furnace. I take your dented HK91 brass and the Mini 14 brass flung so far it is lost to its original shooter and melt it down into random projects of art.
The Wilson internal neck reamer is designed to be used on fired cases. This means that if the case has already been internally reamed and you get a doughnut and still using the same barrel and chamber as when the case was initially reamed then you will not ream additional material from the neck wall. You will clean most of the carbon off but still have trace amount left, rereaming the neck will remove the doughnut material but this would be a one time only solution as you will be removing flowed material from the case web forward - same as as length trimming material source.
Another advantage of partial neck sizing is it will align the case to the bore even with a resized case. 😎
Keith,
I follow you for quite a while because of your analytical approach to shooting issues - Compliment!!
I am myself concerned with the donut issue(s):
I found that there are obstructions at the base of the necks of often used cartridges AND also with brand new ones when the necks are opened with a mandrel (f.e. when the factory necks are too tight).
The first mentioned phenomenon is caused by brass flow forward as everybody and literature is saying.
The latter phenomenon is - I think - due to the support of the neck at the shoulder junction which coincides with the observation that the steeper the shoulder angel (all WSM cartridges) the more pronounced the obtrusion is versus f.e. 30.06 with its flat shoulder
In this case I was successful with annealing the neck-shoulder section and consecutive mandrel procedure.
The donuts of often used cartridges I successfully remove with handheld reamers the brass fixed in L.E. Wilson case holders.
A usefull tool to detect donuts is a measuring pin in the corresponding diam.
I buy them in 0,01mm (0,0004") graduation.
Thanks Winning
There are two other options not mentioned to ironing out that doughnut. Full length sizing the case or using a Lee collet die. I'm a bit surprised this wasn't mention.
Been using a Lee collet neck sizing die for the past 30 years in 243..... Still getting 5/8" at 100 yards!
The sharper the shoulder of a case like the Ackley improves 40° shoulder , the faster the donut will form. Case length may not increase much but the brass has to flow somewhere.
@@suntzu5836243 not really prone to donuts.
I use LCD with an undersized mandrel to get a bit more neck tension than the standard LCD sizing.
@@suntzu5836 Really like the Lee collet dies & have one for every caliber I load for. read a post somewhere that they can generate enough pressure on the case neck to get the brass to flow.
Your reloading bench is unnervingly tidy 😂
You mean a total wreck? Yup, I need to tidy that up.
Thanks, I needed that and you probably saved me some cash. Happy New Year!!
Thanks for this, Keith.
Yes doughnuts do cause flight deviation, I have a ton of LC LR that has been loaded dozens of times and the "doughnut" become more present I noticed erratic fliers.
Keith, I think one factor to mention is the clearance between the loaded cartridge neck O.D. and the chamber neck I.D. The bare minimum is enough to let the bullet go. Benchresters cut it to 1 or 2 mils. But 4-6 mills or more is much safer, unless you check the neck with each reloading. You can achieve this clearance with reamer design or neck turning the brass. If the clearance is tight, you are set up for a bad experience with a doughnut, if it comes along. Better have some good safety glasses on, if that bullet isn't easily let go. By the way, special reamers are available for increasing only the chamber neck size.
Interesting. I reasoned out the idea of not sizing the necks on my brass all the way to the shoulder junction while trying to sort out my donut problem that I just discovered on my 223 Lapua brass. I'm shooting 75g ELDMs that seat the boat tail below the case shoulder junction so short seating the bullet to avoid the neck shoulder junction is not an option. As I backed off of the depth of the bushing a bit at a time. I finally found a spot where I don't feel the donut when seating a bullet, and the loaded round cycles in and out of the chamber with no problem. Now I wonder if I will need to go one size smaller on the bushing to compensate for less neck tension by virtue of the fact that I'm sizing less of the neck than before.
As always, great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks Keith!
Thanks for the video. Be Safe
Thanks, you too!
Don't seat the boattail to bullet body junction past the shoulder/ neck junction of the case...You'll never have a problem. After 25 reloadings of 300 cases I've never had a 'donut'. I read this a few years ago in the Accurateshooter forum when i started loading for the 6 5x47l.
Works only with single feed. Hunters will cry cuz it won’t fit std mag length. Need to up action size one notch.
@@Loojmemhav Boattail to bullet body junction at the case neck junction to mag length or .005 off the lands which ever comes first. This your full range of seating depth. A node WILL be found within this range. It's not a good idea seat in the lands. We chase the node not lands. Smetimes that means seating a bit deeper.
Are you sure that seating the boat tail of bullet at or above the case neck and shoulder junction will not result a jam
I disagree with this. There are a lot of variables, but seating past the neck-shoulder junction works well with some combinations (not every case design forms donuts - the x47 and 6BR/Dasher cases are a great example of this). On the other hand, you can be far into the case and still have the bullet touching the lands depending on chamber specs and bullet selection. Careful measurement and bullet selection is important. Not every chamber and bullet combination is a winner.
@@Loojmemhav I'm pretty sure. If we're talking .308/Creed size cases in a short action with AICS/AWS mags this is about the limit. I loaded .308 inside AICS mags
Excellent information
I just use non-bushing dies and follow it with a coated mandrel (I know, I should still lube it).
Thank you for the video. You mentioned something about copper to brass being a somewhat negative association? Then you showed some type of little bottle of something. Can you please expound on that?
I have some 1x fired LC 556 range brass that has these bumps just below the neck right above the shoulder. Seen this on 1x fired arms cor 223 brass too! Could this be someone's chamber? It was definitely there before I FL sized them. The arms cor 223 brass fired fine but never seen this on LC brass. I like pretty ammo and it makes it look funky.
Mi saludo amigo
What was the bottle that you held up in reference to solving the direct contact with copper and brass? Graphite powder?
Neolube #2
@@winninginthewind Will using Neolube #2 or other forms of graphite in the interior of the case neck reduce ES and SD's?
Thank you
I've never tested for that. I get good numbers both with and without, so I doubt it would make a major change.
Bruh.....just throw it in the trash 😂
What was in the bottle? I’m pretty new at this but I’m guessing it was a type bullet coating?
NeoLube #2 - It's used to coat the inside of the neck.
Short Action Customs dies only size the upper 65% of the neck. 🎉🎉🎉
Keith , what length freebore is your 284 win
Thx
.218 long, .2845 dia, 1.5 deg leade
Why not spend a little bit of your winnings on getting some new Lapua brass and through out the donut problem.
Winnings? 3 consecutive years on the podium at the US F-class Nationals netted almost half enough money to cover the projectiles used. I kid you not...
@@winninginthewind Do you know Erik Cortina and F-class John? Compete at the same matches?
@@jeffsikula2920 Yes, but I've moved away from F-class to PRS in the last year.
AUTODOD or IDOD!
Drops mic, walks away!
Sooner than later the doughnuts comes back…snd you can only thin the necks so thin. Most only use the idod to set initial neck wall thickness.
I don’t have one, but I imagine one could do a good job of removing donuts with one.
In short, it won't. Because of tool deflection, you need to cut the inside and outside at the same time. This machine works best when taking at least 7 tenths to a full thou off of both sides. Great on the first cut, but necks will get uneven if you take too little or too thin if too much.....
@@winninginthewind
@@winninginthewind Yep. can cut just the donut if need be. The real question is..... is it worth it??? Cost wise, brass is replaceable!
@@justice1327You can cut out a donut without cutting more of the neck.
The IDOD is the solution for 😀,all the rest is 🤮
las presiones en los cáñones adtuales .no se pueden controlar por la razón de un pequeño detalle.que se puede cambiar este problema.
20 firings...Get new brass. Problem solved. Time is money.
Depends on the brass, he shoots 6mm Dasher super pricey brass. Heck I shoot .308 and I’m still reloading brass from the first year of Obama. Waste not want not. Think of a situation, maybe a supply chain issue or a spate of panic buying wherein you could easily afford something but there simply wasn’t any to buy you’d want to have these skills for refurbishing brass.
Is it possible that the best course of action is to just replace the brass at the point this really starts showing up?
If there is any available to buy.