Next level geekdom ... I could hear a difference , primarily in the wound strings . Tones were warmer , rounder with the brass screws . Once again , a minute difference is still a difference . From one Michigan guy to another , you are my hero , Jon Gundry .
Great Video! I've been amazed over the years working on guitars and amps to find that any small change in a metal alloy WILL be heard. For instance, a thumbwheel swap from brass to steel will definitely be heard and felt. And I've also tweaked the sound of an amp just by changing a one inch piece of wire. The trick is in being able to swap the parts quick enough to hear the difference before you forget what the first one was like (Alligator clips usually do the trick with electronic parts). The editing of this video is what confirms the subtle difference for everyone. Thanks Jon, for another great video on the secrets of the P.A.F.
Sounds like slightly more presence (not abrupt, just a slope) on the strings in proximity to the steel screws - just listened again with the vid rolled up so I can't see the captions and yep, more presence on one of them. As RJR said, rabbit hole - but these little nuances are where the mojo is, even my old ears are hearing it. Excellent inquisitive train of thought and experimentation. Never seen any of these insights before.
I actually did hear a subtle increase in bits and snarl in the pups with steel screws. I currently use ThroBak strings on both my acoustic and electric guitars and am saving to get a set of pickups for my 69 SG. I live in Grand Rapids and would love to see your facility if that is at all possible.
What I hear is more high end frequencies with steel screws. And I attribute that difference as the reason for the perceived higher output. Thanks for doing this test. I hear so many self-proclaimed experts state that steel screws on PAFs is "red flag." I had them on my 1957 Gibson ES350-T and was told steel means not authentic. I knew from the sound that were absolutely authentic. But then how can one really tell because a dozen PAFs may sound completely different from each other. Personally, I don't care. If the pickup has high impedance which gives me breakup sooner, I'm happy, PAF or not.
I agree with you on the steel. My ears heard a big difference between brass and steel. I prefer the sound of the steel and it fits my personal playing style better.
Just stumbled upon your channel yesterday and I'm binge-watching everything. I'm not really into buying vintage repro pickups, I'm playing high gain monsters, but it's fascinating :)
Couldn't agree more. Steel can be used to give a little more juice to a low or medium output pickup, and brass could be used to maybe smooth out or soften a pickup that's a lil too hot
Wow. I'm impressed. I've been listening to PAF type pickups a lot recently, and closely. I am sure I hear a significant difference between the brass and the steel - with the brass being more hollow or scouped sounding. I think the brass is more typical PAF sounding - which is of considering Peter Green and Paul Kossof's guitars had steel, and are benchmark PAF tones.
Definitely a difference. I love your channel. You are awesome. Thanks for all you do. Unfortunately you’re making it very hard for me to decide which ThroBaks to purchase 😩
I'm late to this party, but I'm looking for three brass bobbin screws (probably best to buy 4 to keep them looking consistent). These are for two T-Tops that I removed from a 70' SG100 that had been butchered in the early 70's and retrofitted with these T-tops that apparently came from a 60's es355. They are pat no. T-tops with Pat no. sticker, maple spacer, rough cast short magnets,(probably A5) but I have no way to tell. and aforesaid brass phillips bobbin screws, which I apparently lost in the 80's during my investigations. I've owned these since '76 and intend to retrofit them into a 2011 les paul lemon drop faded, as part of my 'Greeny' conversion (magnet in the neck pickup will be reversed for phase cancellation, etc). Great video, I love technical stuff like this. By the way. I couldn''t tell the difference. Cheers!
As much as i wanted this to be nonsense the steel version had a fraction more bite and attack(read as presence). This was negligible but there nonetheless. In a live situation playing through a blazing Marshall i seriously doubt anyone including Eric Johnson could hear it! lol 😁 Having said that i still definitely appreciate you went this geeky about the tone of the P.A.F's! 👍
John , Thanks for the video , Us PAF nuts appreciate things like this :) I agree with You on the results ... More treble and output/ bite & snarl on picking attack with the steel... Lol , gonna have to check some of mine & see if I have the steel screws , If not , I might have to get some ..also , wonder If I could have a Kossoff set made If I wanted , those going to be avalible to the public in the future....thank you & best , Chris
It is a subtle difference but if any of you or fans of the Doug and Pat show and you list all the wonderful pickups they try and the new listen to the guitar Oscar there's something about what Oscars doing that is so subtly different from what everything else is doing but so much better and you can't begin to put your finger on it so all the little details are are wet ads up giving you the great tonal difference what about Center lab volume and tone pots someone needs to recreate those if they haven't already
Mark70609 I'm not an expert, Jon is for sure. From the little I learned, when it comes to PAFS, every little thing matters in the end. It's not one thing, it's a combination of things and the result in relation to what your preferences are. One common thing all good pickups have is Clarity, that's a consensus. Dynamics is another key factor. So, coils, magnets, wires, construction, are part of a recipe. Having said that, the way everything is put together is also just as important, and that's the Magic some manufacturers can achieve. Throbak is top 3 for me, and that's saying a lot since there are so many good manufacturers nowadays.
Douglas Maia what are your top three pickup makers? I have a set of Timbuckers that I really like. I'm sure Jon does a similar set, but I'm quite happy with them. Jon does try and quantify all the differences for the consumer and I respect that. Oh yes, he part of that phenomenon that economists can't quite believe, people will pay more for quality.
Mark70609 from the makers I had the chance to try and are currently producing, my top 3 are Throbak, Wizz and Ron Ellis in no particular order. Jim Rolph as a close 4th.
Douglas Maia I have a set of Ron Ellis pickups that I want to put into my R0. I got them 2nd hand, I've heard they are good, but not much more than that.
Great video! The notion of steel screws acting as extra, virtual polepieces makes me think of Carvin pickups (like it would be a way to replicate some of the evenness in response while maintaining a normal PAF appearance). I guess would need 14 bobbin screws to be the most Carvin-like though 😆😋
steel is more 'alive' brass sounds like a blanket is on it.. wow.. mind blown. yes. it is subtle. same as the difference between an IR and an actual mic'd cab.
I agree with you in that the steel has a brighter, slightly more output, brass seems warmer and slightly less output. Kind of reminds me of sustain blocks on a tremolo, I personally find brass to be warmer or slightly darker than the steel blocks, buts that's a different subject, but that's what I have noticed with brass opposed to steel.
I could hear the difference... I'm amazed, I normally really don't hear a difference... but the steel is brighter at least to my ears.. and more bite.. warmers with brass..
Very clearly an audible difference. I suspect that you would hear a similar difference if you used slightly longer slugs or if you used the next larger diameter screw size for the pole pieces, or set the pickups slightly closer to the strings. Likewise, different alloy slugs and pole screws, and annealing pole screws with cold rolled threads would affect the sound. This is a great example of why you need to pay attention to the details, because nearly everything can have some effect on the sound.
Hmmm, perhaps some steel screws on my neck would tame some of the wooliness. Liked the brass more on the bridge in this example though. A little woodier to my ear. Great vid!
I love this video and the very obvious affect it has on the tone. That said Iron based materials and certain other materials can be permanently magnetized. What you may not be aware of; or maybe not informing of; is that magnetic fields and electricity go hand in hand. Run electricity through any conductor and a magnetic field will form. Pass a magnetic field through a conductor and electricity will be produced. This is how the copper coils of the pickup manage to turn string motion (movement) in an electrical current that is the pick-up output signal. Other conductors can be temporally magnetized as well by these effects as well. Magnetic induction aluminium disk brakes work by this principal for instance. e.g. (simplified version) Pass a magnetic field through a rotating aluminium disk. The disk will become magnetized and produce eddy currents. These eddy currents will resist the magnetic lines of force and produce more magnetic fields further inducing more eddy currents. The result of this, without physical friction, is that a counter rotational torque is created and braking load force applied. As long as there is movement or varying magnetic fields. Brass can be temporally magnetized too. It's just that the steel works much better, that this has a noticeable effect. Chances are, if you replaced the brass screws with a nonconductor. The pickups would likely lose some output, as opposed to the gain you see with replacing brass with steel. Love your videos. Cheers EDIT: I have a question, have you ever tried to observe magnetic field of vintage PAF's or the unsymmetrical magnetic properties of vintage copper winding's. I can think of one or two easy methods to accomplish this. It would be interesting to know if you done this and if you had observed a good parity between your pickups and vintage PAF's.
Jon, the Brass is smoother sounding. The steel has a slightly brighter, slightly more aggressive tonality. I'm listening to this on my iPad with a little Bluetooth remote speaker. So if I can hear it on this, then I would imagine that through some good speakers/system it would be a bit more pronounced. But, great topic and great video on your part! Thanks for doing this comparison!! Maybe do a video on the different pole screws that Gibson used(?).. BTW, can I buy a dozen steel screws?
ThroBak Guitar Lounge I wonder how a players touch would interact with either pickups? I personally would be happy with the brass as it seems smoother and more linear for lack of a better term. I also wonder if turn the treble control and the volume control up would yield similar results? Mind you I could see people playing a pickup with the steel screws and being pleasantly surprised . Will a Kossoff pickup be made by Throbak for the masses?
wow way more bite with the steel screws ... impressive... found the right steel screws in my junkbox ...did my guitar last night WOW !!! look for #2 pan head 3/8 ... they are out there
Subtle... and could be offset by other elements in the signal chain (EQ, hand position, etc.). I would not design a pickup around this, but it could a nice way to fine tune a pickup.
Definitely a clarity and crispness with the steel. A warmer roundness with the brass.....I personally prefer the brass but not because the steel sounded bad or off. Just personal preference. By the way, great Logo...who was the amazing artist who did it?! :-)
No doubt about it there is a difference! It's Interesting that the steel mounting screws do sound brighter or more open/ more output and that to me is better. I tend to like brighter when it comes to humbuckers. Also interesting that 2 of the best PAF sounds to me were Peter Green's Les Paul and Paul Kossoff's Les Paul and they had steel mounting screws. Now my question to Jon Gundry is would you sell some of those screws so I could change the brass ones in my SLE 101 limited pickups. I hope I won't mess up the pickup. Yikes!
The pickups with the brass screws were designed with the tone of the brass screws as being part of the formula. There is also a small but real potential to strip out the plastic by changing the screws. I also do not have a checkout setup for the steel screws. I’m really in the business of making the pickups more than selling the parts.
The brass screws sound more clear and the steel have a blur but in a good juicy way. The location in the bobbin relative to the particular strings is the "bob ross happy accident". As the strings vibrate, they are moving away and back over the center of the pole pieces...the center of force.....by adding the hidden steel screw since its not seen from the top on exposed bobbins or a covered PU.....the particular strings as they deflect out of the respective pole pieces zone...they enter into the hidden zone and its a measure of a signal dip and spike but just in the affected area. Brass would be a dip in signal so each pole piece zone would be uniform in performance. Since the screws are between the high E and B strings and the low E and A strings.....its the nature of the strum when playing...the root notes of chords. The low E and A will pack the most energy being low waves and its just a happy accident that the mounting screw happens to be right there...….in a down strum. The up strum starting on the high E and B...same principle though less energy than the opposite side low strings...the extra kick of the hidden screw adds to the high E bends because you bend over the hidden active pole as you move away from the initial pole......the signal doesn't dip out. Kind of like having partial Blade pickups.....in concept....without the blade
I'd lean towards the steel screws along with an alnico 4 magnet...….but the magnet choice opens up the new variable to play with. In the PAF world...that probably explains why some players say that particular guitars in the 57 to 60 window have it or not as far as the magic. Obviously you are using the formula or a reverse engineering approach based on random sampling. I recently ran into a peculiar thing about the wiring of the bobbins as they are wired together....as opposed to the magnet orientation relative to phase......if you look at the phase scenario as a situation of having 2 humbuckers in a guitar and the orientation of the magnets between the 2 and in the middle position on the selector switch...…..which is part of the Peter Green thing. But the thing I saw was that a pickup was hooked up to an ohm meter to read the DC resistance and while on the meter a ferrous piece of metal was touched to the pole pieces......observing the meter...there is either a momentary spike up or a momentary dip down.....which is corresponding to the bobbin linking being with the starts or the finishes.....essentially playing in or out.....and other to the magnet orientation. So again like the steel bobbin screws.....the playing in or out may be a further factor to examine. The alnico 4 magnets seem to be the neutral magnet that's even in response where as the other grades tend to influence tonality in directions. Everything points to Gibson using what is available in the heat of the moment.....not 100% consistency......whether it be the bobbin mounting screws or the magnets or the color of the bobbins or possibly the color of the wire.
Steel has just a hair more brilliance and bite, making the brass sound a hair softer. This was especially noticeable on the wound strings, where there wasn't as much difference between the two with the high, unwound, strings.
I have a question. Did you use the same exact pickup and switch the screws, on that pickup, or was it 2 different pickups, one with steel screws, and a different pickup with brass screws? I did hear a difference, but if 2 different pickups were used, couldn't it just be that each pickup sounds a little different?
I'm was surprised that I could hear the difference. I like the steel not sure if others consider that "vintage sound correct", personally though I'm not interested in them sounding vintage, though its not my guitar/guitar restoration. I was wondering what equipment you use to do pickup comparisons ? Since I am looking at a Peavey mixer 6 usb, or audio interface (uphoria 2 something), not sure if I need a DI box. Anyway I wanted to do pickup comparison videos and since I can hear a difference in the small screws I figure you are the guy to ask, thanks for your time.
I use a Microtech Gefell mic in figure 8 through a phantom power pre amp and I mix in a touch of the lav mic. No processing other than what youtube does.
Wow, awesome thanks for the reply. Can't afford that mic currently saving money for school books, but thanks for the info and response I know you're busy thinking of "stuff" lol
As crazy as I thought it seemed clicking on the link, I heard it too.... Can you sell 8 screws so I can do my own experimentation? Thanks and keep up the good work!!
I’m not offering the screws for sale. But there will be specific pickup sets that will feature them and customers can request Steel bobbin screws in the special instructions box when they order pickups.
The seymour 59's already use Brass screws to mount the bobbins. I suggest swapping the A5 magnets to A2. or you can go to 250K pots to tame the high end.
the steel ones is brighter and snapier, the brass ones sounds a little muddier, if this is due to the screws i dont know, but steel changes the magnetic field so it might
I thought the brass better followed what the string was doing while the steel had a tendency to go its own way and develop a slight dissonance when the string was struck hard and did not decay smoothly but rather more abruptly than the brass. Same effect as having steel bridge support screws versus brass ; a sort of hardness to the tone which might be desirable for aggressive tones.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge hi thank you for replying did you get to check the original pickup your self?? The reason I ask is no one as ever come out and said it is this or that, it’s like it’s a big secret or something!!! I’ve only just come across your channel and I’m really enjoying the show 👍🏻👍🏻
Just watched the vid again, and there is a big difference. On a different tack, have you / could you do a vid on differing wind tensions and different types of wire coating (the "enamel") - it seems quite obvious that the conductivity/dialectic characteristics / collective capacitance of different enamels (some of which aren't really enamels) would give different electrical measurements. Also, I assume different enamels will deteriorate at different rates over time in different environments. Any chance of analysing these aspects? The naysayers will call BS/no difference but those with a more analytical brain will look for and note the subtleties and collective subtleties.
Hey Jon.... Ed A here.... yeah so definitely hear the brighter attack of the steel screws.... first question (sorry if this has already been asked).... Was this test 100%, controlled... meaning same pickup, just screws changed? same strings?.... how was it recorded?.... Believe it or not, in my own home recordings there can be a huge difference based on the physical angle of the guitar and the sound reflecting off of it and into my phone mic... I notice the angle youre sitting is different in both tests.... but if you are close micing then that wont matter..... just curious because any little thing can be causing the difference... OR... it really can be the screws!... cool demo!
Everything was controlled. Just the screws were changed. I literally just loosened the strings, took out the mounting ring with the pickup in it, changed screws and put it back in the guitar. So strings and even pickup height was never messed with. I used a Microtech Gefell mic in figure 8 mode through a pre amp. Mic placement is same for both clips.
Well then there you go! I knew with you it would be controlled but as you said it’s kind a hard to believe there would be a difference and you prove there is!
Dude..u just made the best & most accurate tone statement than all the cork/sniffin'..so called tone gurus on this post...from down in texas..just play What u got..2 tiny screws wont make a significant difference..leo f. used what was available & economical @that time&with great results.
You know I actually did wondered if this was possible . I’m not a robot so there is some variation I’m sure. But I’m used to playing these phrases over and over so I think in total, my picking is pretty consistent in this test.
Next level geekdom ...
I could hear a difference , primarily in the wound strings . Tones were warmer , rounder with the brass screws . Once again , a minute difference is still a difference .
From one Michigan guy to another , you are my hero , Jon Gundry .
Quite a noticeable difference. The steel screws were like a new set of strings sound, vs the brass screws, which sounded like old strings.
It appears I have the Brass ones. Thank you Jon.
Pretty sure Brass was the majority as a whole.
I thought there would not be but there is a difference and the summary you gave is impeccable. The brass sound seemed warmer and more jazzy
Great Video! I've been amazed over the years working on guitars and amps to find that any small change in a metal alloy WILL be heard. For instance, a thumbwheel swap from brass to steel will definitely be heard and felt. And I've also tweaked the sound of an amp just by changing a one inch piece of wire. The trick is in being able to swap the parts quick enough to hear the difference before you forget what the first one was like (Alligator clips usually do the trick with electronic parts). The editing of this video is what confirms the subtle difference for everyone. Thanks Jon, for another great video on the secrets of the P.A.F.
Love your videos....so well done and informative!
Sounds like slightly more presence (not abrupt, just a slope) on the strings in proximity to the steel screws - just listened again with the vid rolled up so I can't see the captions and yep, more presence on one of them. As RJR said, rabbit hole - but these little nuances are where the mojo is, even my old ears are hearing it. Excellent inquisitive train of thought and experimentation. Never seen any of these insights before.
I actually did hear a subtle increase in bits and snarl in the pups with steel screws. I currently use ThroBak strings on both my acoustic and electric guitars and am saving to get a set of pickups for my 69 SG. I live in Grand Rapids and would love to see your facility if that is at all possible.
What I hear is more high end frequencies with steel screws. And I attribute that difference as the reason for the perceived higher output. Thanks for doing this test. I hear so many self-proclaimed experts state that steel screws on PAFs is "red flag." I had them on my 1957 Gibson ES350-T and was told steel means not authentic. I knew from the sound that were absolutely authentic. But then how can one really tell because a dozen PAFs may sound completely different from each other. Personally, I don't care. If the pickup has high impedance which gives me breakup sooner, I'm happy, PAF or not.
I agree with you on the steel. My ears heard a big difference between brass and steel. I prefer the sound of the steel and it fits my personal playing style better.
thanks for the demo, incredible sound both !!!
Pretty cool! Definitely a difference..
Just stumbled upon your channel yesterday and I'm binge-watching everything. I'm not really into buying vintage repro pickups, I'm playing high gain monsters, but it's fascinating :)
Some high gain players prefer a lower output vintage era pickup like a T-top.
@@ThroBakChannel That's true. I should try out some before declaring my preference :)
Definitely a difference. Steel = brighter, snappier. Brass = mellower, smoother.
Couldn't agree more. Steel can be used to give a little more juice to a low or medium output pickup, and brass could be used to maybe smooth out or soften a pickup that's a lil too hot
Wow. I'm impressed. I've been listening to PAF type pickups a lot recently, and closely.
I am sure I hear a significant difference between the brass and the steel - with the brass being more hollow or scouped sounding. I think the brass is more typical PAF sounding - which is of considering Peter Green and Paul Kossof's guitars had steel, and are benchmark PAF tones.
The steel bobbin screws seem to have a slight increase in the high end. Its very minor but to my ears it seems to be there. I agree with Jon.
Definitely a difference. I love your channel. You are awesome. Thanks for all you do. Unfortunately you’re making it very hard for me to decide which ThroBaks to purchase 😩
Brass is smoother sounding...back to back clips really helps to discern
Definitely like the steel ones 👌
I'm late to this party, but I'm looking for three brass bobbin screws (probably best to buy 4 to keep them looking consistent). These are for two T-Tops that I removed from a 70' SG100 that had been butchered in the early 70's and retrofitted with these T-tops that apparently came from a 60's es355. They are pat no. T-tops with Pat no. sticker, maple spacer, rough cast short magnets,(probably A5) but I have no way to tell. and aforesaid brass phillips bobbin screws, which I apparently lost in the 80's during my investigations. I've owned these since '76 and intend to retrofit them into a 2011 les paul lemon drop faded, as part of my 'Greeny' conversion (magnet in the neck pickup will be reversed for phase cancellation, etc). Great video, I love technical stuff like this. By the way. I couldn''t tell the difference. Cheers!
I think the steel has a brighter overall sound.
Wow... the difference is kinda clear as day. I don't want to admit to it, but I hear what I hear.
You are correct Sir, there is a difference, albeit as slight as it may be!
Johnny Carson's reply to Ed's "You are correct, sir!" assertion would be, "That's some really weird stuff!" XD
Wow, 100 percent agree (even when you tried to mix it up and switch riff order) . Awesome comparison video btw (aka nice playing)
As much as i wanted this to be nonsense the steel version had a fraction more bite and attack(read as presence).
This was negligible but there nonetheless. In a live situation playing through a blazing Marshall
i seriously doubt anyone including Eric Johnson could hear it! lol 😁
Having said that i still definitely appreciate you went this geeky about the tone of the P.A.F's! 👍
A little is huge with Guitarest. I like the brass for its solver attack.
Softer
I listened with headphones and I could hear what you are talking about. It did surprise me a little but I could hear it.
John , Thanks for the video , Us PAF nuts appreciate things like this :) I agree with You on the results ... More treble and output/ bite & snarl on picking attack with the steel... Lol , gonna have to check some of mine & see if I have the steel screws , If not , I might have to get some ..also , wonder If I could have a Kossoff set made If I wanted , those going to be avalible to the public in the future....thank you & best , Chris
The Kossoff pickups will be coming soon.
It is a subtle difference but if any of you or fans of the Doug and Pat show and you list all the wonderful pickups they try and the new listen to the guitar Oscar there's something about what Oscars doing that is so subtly different from what everything else is doing but so much better and you can't begin to put your finger on it so all the little details are are wet ads up giving you the great tonal difference what about Center lab volume and tone pots someone needs to recreate those if they haven't already
Now you left me wanting to get steel screws to try on my neck position SLE 101Plus since I like my neck pickups to be as bright and clear as possible.
Douglas Maia I thought that sort of thing was obtained by mismatched coils and unoriented A5 magnets?
Mark70609 I'm not an expert, Jon is for sure. From the little I learned, when it comes to PAFS, every little thing matters in the end. It's not one thing, it's a combination of things and the result in relation to what your preferences are. One common thing all good pickups have is Clarity, that's a consensus. Dynamics is another key factor. So, coils, magnets, wires, construction, are part of a recipe. Having said that, the way everything is put together is also just as important, and that's the Magic some manufacturers can achieve. Throbak is top 3 for me, and that's saying a lot since there are so many good manufacturers nowadays.
Douglas Maia what are your top three pickup makers?
I have a set of Timbuckers that I really like. I'm sure Jon does a similar set, but I'm quite happy with them.
Jon does try and quantify all the differences for the consumer and I respect that.
Oh yes, he part of that phenomenon that economists can't quite believe, people will pay more for quality.
Mark70609 from the makers I had the chance to try and are currently producing, my top 3 are Throbak, Wizz and Ron Ellis in no particular order. Jim Rolph as a close 4th.
Douglas Maia I have a set of Ron Ellis pickups that I want to put into my R0. I got them 2nd hand, I've heard they are good, but not much more than that.
Great video! The notion of steel screws acting as extra, virtual polepieces makes me think of Carvin pickups (like it would be a way to replicate some of the evenness in response while maintaining a normal PAF appearance). I guess would need 14 bobbin screws to be the most Carvin-like though 😆😋
Like the others, the steels were brighter and louder. Very apparent.
steel is more 'alive' brass sounds like a blanket is on it.. wow.. mind blown.
yes. it is subtle. same as the difference between an IR and an actual mic'd cab.
I have a Zebra PAF with Phillips head Steel screws & an early Pat.# with Steel Slot head screws.
I agree with you in that the steel has a brighter, slightly more output, brass seems warmer and slightly less output. Kind of reminds me of sustain blocks on a tremolo, I personally find brass to be warmer or slightly darker than the steel blocks, buts that's a different subject, but that's what I have noticed with brass opposed to steel.
I could hear the difference... I'm amazed, I normally really don't hear a difference... but the steel is brighter at least to my ears.. and more bite.. warmers with brass..
Very clearly an audible difference. I suspect that you would hear a similar difference if you used slightly longer slugs or if you used the next larger diameter screw size for the pole pieces, or set the pickups slightly closer to the strings. Likewise, different alloy slugs and pole screws, and annealing pole screws with cold rolled threads would affect the sound. This is a great example of why you need to pay attention to the details, because nearly everything can have some effect on the sound.
I agree, there's a little more bite to the steel.
Hmmm, perhaps some steel screws on my neck would tame some of the wooliness. Liked the brass more on the bridge in this example though. A little woodier to my ear. Great vid!
I love this video and the very obvious affect it has on the tone. That said Iron based materials and certain other materials can be permanently magnetized. What you may not be aware of; or maybe not informing of; is that magnetic fields and electricity go hand in hand. Run electricity through any conductor and a magnetic field will form. Pass a magnetic field through a conductor and electricity will be produced. This is how the copper coils of the pickup manage to turn string motion (movement) in an electrical current that is the pick-up output signal.
Other conductors can be temporally magnetized as well by these effects as well. Magnetic induction aluminium disk brakes work by this principal for instance. e.g. (simplified version) Pass a magnetic field through a rotating aluminium disk. The disk will become magnetized and produce eddy currents. These eddy currents will resist the magnetic lines of force and produce more magnetic fields further inducing more eddy currents. The result of this, without physical friction, is that a counter rotational torque is created and braking load force applied. As long as there is movement or varying magnetic fields.
Brass can be temporally magnetized too. It's just that the steel works much better, that this has a noticeable effect. Chances are, if you replaced the brass screws with a nonconductor. The pickups would likely lose some output, as opposed to the gain you see with replacing brass with steel.
Love your videos.
Cheers
EDIT:
I have a question, have you ever tried to observe magnetic field of vintage PAF's or the unsymmetrical magnetic properties of vintage copper winding's. I can think of one or two easy methods to accomplish this. It would be interesting to know if you done this and if you had observed a good parity between your pickups and vintage PAF's.
Jon, the Brass is smoother sounding. The steel has a slightly brighter, slightly more aggressive tonality. I'm listening to this on my iPad with a little Bluetooth remote speaker. So if I can hear it on this, then I would imagine that through some good speakers/system it would be a bit more pronounced.
But, great topic and great video on your part! Thanks for doing this comparison!! Maybe do a video on the different pole screws that Gibson used(?)..
BTW, can I buy a dozen steel screws?
Thanks! I’m hearing the same thing.
Amazing, I completely confirm with a great pair of headphones! Great sounds, brass jazz steel rock! I will surely check my pick ups!
This is exactly what I'm hearing too.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge I wonder how a players touch would interact with either pickups?
I personally would be happy with the brass as it seems smoother and more linear for lack of a better term. I also wonder if turn the treble control and the volume control up would yield similar results?
Mind you I could see people playing a pickup with the steel screws and being pleasantly surprised .
Will a Kossoff pickup be made by Throbak for the masses?
wow way more bite with the steel screws ... impressive... found the right steel screws in my junkbox ...did my guitar last night WOW !!! look for #2 pan head 3/8 ... they are out there
Oh man, I could hear a pretty big difference in the initial attack. I’m on team steel screw!
I like the brass sound better. I can hear it. The brass sounds softer and the steel sounds sharper. Kinda makes sense too if ya think about it
The pickups with the steel screws were just slightly brighter although both sounded excellent.
Subtle... and could be offset by other elements in the signal chain (EQ, hand position, etc.). I would not design a pickup around this, but it could a nice way to fine tune a pickup.
Definitely a clarity and crispness with the steel. A warmer roundness with the brass.....I personally prefer the brass but not because the steel sounded bad or off. Just personal preference. By the way, great Logo...who was the amazing artist who did it?! :-)
Thanks Paul and thanks for the great logo you did for me! Great to hear from you.
It certainly is a very effective, clear, eyecatching and sustainable Logo. I rate it in the CocaCola League.
No doubt about it there is a difference! It's Interesting that the steel mounting screws do sound brighter or more open/ more output and that to me is better. I tend to like brighter when it comes to humbuckers. Also interesting that 2 of the best PAF sounds to me were Peter Green's Les Paul and Paul Kossoff's Les Paul and they had steel mounting screws. Now my question to Jon Gundry is would you sell some of those screws so I could change the brass ones in my SLE 101 limited pickups. I hope I won't mess up the pickup. Yikes!
Sorry I don’t sell the screws separately.
@@ThroBakChannel not even to a customer who has purchased your pickups?
The pickups with the brass screws were designed with the tone of the brass screws as being part of the formula. There is also a small but real potential to strip out the plastic by changing the screws. I also do not have a checkout setup for the steel screws. I’m really in the business of making the pickups more than selling the parts.
@@ThroBakChannel I would buy a set of all your pickups if I could afford to. I am jealous of doctors and lawyers who can afford them.
The brass screws sound more clear and the steel have a blur but in a good juicy way. The location in the bobbin relative to the particular strings is the "bob ross happy accident". As the strings vibrate, they are moving away and back over the center of the pole pieces...the center of force.....by adding the hidden steel screw since its not seen from the top on exposed bobbins or a covered PU.....the particular strings as they deflect out of the respective pole pieces zone...they enter into the hidden zone and its a measure of a signal dip and spike but just in the affected area. Brass would be a dip in signal so each pole piece zone would be uniform in performance. Since the screws are between the high E and B strings and the low E and A strings.....its the nature of the strum when playing...the root notes of chords. The low E and A will pack the most energy being low waves and its just a happy accident that the mounting screw happens to be right there...….in a down strum. The up strum starting on the high E and B...same principle though less energy than the opposite side low strings...the extra kick of the hidden screw adds to the high E bends because you bend over the hidden active pole as you move away from the initial pole......the signal doesn't dip out.
Kind of like having partial Blade pickups.....in concept....without the blade
The big question is.....did you do the metallurgy on the steel screws like you have with the steel pole pieces ?
I'd lean towards the steel screws along with an alnico 4 magnet...….but the magnet choice opens up the new variable to play with.
In the PAF world...that probably explains why some players say that particular guitars in the 57 to 60 window have it or not as far as the magic.
Obviously you are using the formula or a reverse engineering approach based on random sampling.
I recently ran into a peculiar thing about the wiring of the bobbins as they are wired together....as opposed to the magnet orientation relative to phase......if you look at the phase scenario as a situation of having 2 humbuckers in a guitar and the orientation of the magnets between the 2 and in the middle position on the selector switch...…..which is part of the Peter Green thing.
But the thing I saw was that a pickup was hooked up to an ohm meter to read the DC resistance and while on the meter a ferrous piece of metal was touched to the pole pieces......observing the meter...there is either a momentary spike up or a momentary dip down.....which is corresponding to the bobbin linking being with the starts or the finishes.....essentially playing in or out.....and other to the magnet orientation.
So again like the steel bobbin screws.....the playing in or out may be a further factor to examine.
The alnico 4 magnets seem to be the neutral magnet that's even in response where as the other grades tend to influence tonality in directions.
Everything points to Gibson using what is available in the heat of the moment.....not 100% consistency......whether it be the bobbin mounting screws or the magnets or the color of the bobbins or possibly the color of the wire.
Screws this small have to made with low carbon steel.
Another great video but would you say that stainless steel would be as inert magnetically as brass??? Thanks!
Didn’t really note any difference in the tone, but it did sound like the attack on the steel was more responsive...
I agree the Brass is warmer, what set is the Paul Kosoff that you are making?
The Kossoff set is from the last Burst he owned. He played it with Free and after Free broke up.
there is a subtle difference. i like the brass a bit better. however they both sound awesome.
Steel has just a hair more brilliance and bite, making the brass sound a hair softer. This was especially noticeable on the wound strings, where there wasn't as much difference between the two with the high, unwound, strings.
There’s more “clang” in the steel bobbins. I kinda like it.
I was going to try steel screws in my very early Pat.# humbucking and it already had steel, slothead screws holding the bobbins... who knew..
I have seen slotted brass in late Pat. # pickups but have not seen slotted steel yet.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge Jon, I’ll take a picture and send it to you. Prolly tomorrow as I don’t wanna mess with it since I have a gig tonight.
Dimarzio screws !
Correction yes Early Pat# screws came in steel sometimes too... I told a buddy about this video and he confirmed his PAT# pickups have steel screws
Steel definitely had more bite and accentuated the pick attack.
Steel is brighter 🔆 and louder 🔊
Exactly same here. Even on a phone
Are there any tonal variance between chrome, nickel and stainless steel cover?
I think there would be. However Nickel plated Nickel Silver covers are the standard for a P.A.F..
I have a question. Did you use the same exact pickup and switch the screws, on that pickup, or was it 2 different pickups, one with steel screws, and a different pickup with brass screws? I did hear a difference, but if 2 different pickups were used, couldn't it just be that each pickup sounds a little different?
They are the same pickups. Just the bobbin mountings screws are different.
I'm was surprised that I could hear the difference. I like the steel not sure if others consider that "vintage sound correct", personally though I'm not interested in them sounding vintage, though its not my guitar/guitar restoration. I was wondering what equipment you use to do pickup comparisons ? Since I am looking at a Peavey mixer 6 usb, or audio interface (uphoria 2 something), not sure if I need a DI box. Anyway I wanted to do pickup comparison videos and since I can hear a difference in the small screws I figure you are the guy to ask, thanks for your time.
I use a Microtech Gefell mic in figure 8 through a phantom power pre amp and I mix in a touch of the lav mic. No processing other than what youtube does.
Wow, awesome thanks for the reply. Can't afford that mic currently saving money for school books, but thanks for the info and response I know you're busy thinking of "stuff" lol
As crazy as I thought it seemed clicking on the link, I heard it too.... Can you sell 8 screws so I can do my own experimentation? Thanks and keep up the good work!!
I’m not offering the screws for sale. But there will be specific pickup sets that will feature them and customers can request Steel bobbin screws in the special instructions box when they order pickups.
Interestingly, I noticed the same difference on my earbuds.
Steel sounded I little brighter to me too
Holly shit. I didnt exspect it to be that big. In fact i thought this was bs. The steel is way brighter and i wouldnt have beleave it.
The brass sounded warmer. I have a pair of S.D. 59's that are way too bright. Do you sell the screws?
Sorry we don’t sell the screws.
The seymour 59's already use Brass screws to mount the bobbins. I suggest swapping the A5 magnets to A2.
or you can go to 250K pots to tame the high end.
@@CS_Murphy_R9 Thank you, I'll try that.
@@DennisAlvarezMusic Your welcome.
the steel ones is brighter and snapier, the brass ones sounds a little muddier, if this is due to the screws i dont know, but steel changes the magnetic field so it might
I thought the brass better followed what the string was doing while the steel had a tendency to go its own way and develop a slight dissonance when the string was struck hard and did not decay smoothly but rather more abruptly than the brass. Same effect as having steel bridge support screws versus brass ; a sort of hardness to the tone which might be desirable for aggressive tones.
Hi Would you say there is a difference between a brass baseplate and a nickel steel baseplate?? And if so wot would this be???
I have not tested this but as a general rule brass removes treble and lowers output in comparison to nickel silver in a pickup.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge thank you for replying and would like to say I really like these videos you do I find them fascinating!!! 👍🏻
Hi is the Peter green burst reverse wound or is the magnet flipped??
The Peter Green pickup has a magnet flip.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge hi thank you for replying did you get to check the original pickup your self?? The reason I ask is no one as ever come out and said it is this or that, it’s like it’s a big secret or something!!! I’ve only just come across your channel and I’m really enjoying the show 👍🏻👍🏻
Big difference…I have decent monitors :) Steel MUCH more clarity.
Just watched the vid again, and there is a big difference. On a different tack, have you / could you do a vid on differing wind tensions and different types of wire coating (the "enamel") - it seems quite obvious that the conductivity/dialectic characteristics / collective capacitance of different enamels (some of which aren't really enamels) would give different electrical measurements. Also, I assume different enamels will deteriorate at different rates over time in different environments. Any chance of analysing these aspects? The naysayers will call BS/no difference but those with a more analytical brain will look for and note the subtleties and collective subtleties.
I’ll do videos comparing some of those details in the future.
Thank you Jon, you're a gem (and guru) :o)
Where could someone buy steel bobbin screws?
You probably won’t be able to find any with the correct size and finish. That’s why I had them made.
Hey Jon.... Ed A here.... yeah so definitely hear the brighter attack of the steel screws.... first question (sorry if this has already been asked).... Was this test 100%, controlled... meaning same pickup, just screws changed? same strings?.... how was it recorded?.... Believe it or not, in my own home recordings there can be a huge difference based on the physical angle of the guitar and the sound reflecting off of it and into my phone mic... I notice the angle youre sitting is different in both tests.... but if you are close micing then that wont matter..... just curious because any little thing can be causing the difference... OR... it really can be the screws!... cool demo!
Everything was controlled. Just the screws were changed. I literally just loosened the strings, took out the mounting ring with the pickup in it, changed screws and put it back in the guitar. So strings and even pickup height was never messed with. I used a Microtech Gefell mic in figure 8 mode through a pre amp. Mic placement is same for both clips.
Well then there you go! I knew with you it would be controlled but as you said it’s kind a hard to believe there would be a difference and you prove there is!
Steel is brighter toned, the brass is warmer and less bitey on the top end
How about 6 steel mounting screws ? So the middle strings get the effect too
Since we make a repro I won’t be doing that.
ThroBak Guitar Lounge
Oh, I understand😊
Huge difference.....brass is softer and more muted....steel is brighter with more attack than the brass....WOW who would have thunk!!!!! hahaha
Steel seems brighter
I found the brass a little less pronounced. The steel was more my vibe. Had a hair more girth and grit.
I gotta go to the ear doc , i couldnt tell a difference with my headphones on but i am partially deff.
Holy shit. Steel btw
I hear a sublte increase in the brightness and attact with the steel screws. am i crazy? probably! 🤣
I would pick steel over brass
Everything effects everything with guitars.
Dude..u just made the best & most accurate tone statement than all the cork/sniffin'..so called tone gurus on this post...from down in texas..just play
What u got..2 tiny screws wont make a significant difference..leo f. used
what was available & economical @that time&with great results.
There is INDEED quite a difference! steel brighter.. for shure...
Steel for me....- more presence
When you are going to make a copy of Bernie Marsden "The Beast" Les Paul. The day u make it is the day I order. Thx
He played more gently with the brass screws.
You know I actually did wondered if this was possible . I’m not a robot so there is some variation I’m sure. But I’m used to playing these phrases over and over so I think in total, my picking is pretty consistent in this test.
Steel is clearly more bright
Steel sounds better to me, only because there’s more attack and the brass more bluesy......dare I say like an A5 to an A2
Steel had more output.
up front treble with steel...
more laid back after pic tone with brass...
to my ear, i dont think your playing was a factor to this
Brass = vintage sound
Steel is better in my opinion. Brass sounded thinner and more flubbery.
Steel is brighter