Is The Rotary Engine Reliable? We Dispel The Myth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ม.ค. 2017
- RX8 and RX7 otary engines are known for being 'unreliable' but are they really? Boost in, apex seals out and burning oil doesn't mean they're shitty engines, find out why.
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SO Mechanical engineer here...my job is also in reliability lol not kidding! The question of rotary reliability is a loaded question, and I think that you gave it a good shot but missed the mark by a little bit. Rotaries are indeed a reliable powerplant, and indeed are MUCH more reliable than a piston engine. But not in the conventional sense that most average drivers, and car guys think in. Because of the very low number of moving parts in a rotary in conjunction with the very low vibration; zero reciprocating parts, the engine has what is known as soft failure modes. When a piston engine fails, ceases to be able to run in any fashion it it's usually catastrophic. Thrown rod, broken cam, broken crank, etcetera. When a rotary fails, unless your running godly amounts boost it merely loses compression; how often do you see a truly detonated rotary? As long as you don't turn it off it will keep running, you may completely ruin the irons and housings but its gonna finish the race or get you home. If you don't believe me ask yourself why rotaries are so prevalent in the aeronautics industry...... Also, little food for thought, Mazda is the only japanese car manufacturer to win Lamanes with the 787B a naturally aspirated quad rotor. Honda and Toyota have yet to accomplish this feat with any engine. As for your statement that turbo rotaries are unreliable because Hondas go for 300K, and my turbo rotary cant....... REALLY? How many turbo piston engines making equivalent power to weight would outlast a rotary? I am betting if we did a standard deviation objectively on failure modes and number of revolutions, controlling for maintenance, the rotary's sigma is gonna be farther to the right of the piston engin curve. With all that being said, rotaries get a reputation for being unreliable because you CAN NOT neglect maintenance. Especially on a Renesis because of the EPA garbage. I have 05 RX8 with original engine in it, Intake, headers, cat delete as well as a MMCC tune. It has 73K has been premixed since I bought it with 25K, still has great compression and damn thing starts better than my Mazda 3 in the winter. My best friend has an 84 RX7 FB, damn thing still runs great. I already wrote a novel, but this is my peice :)
Mike L Thank you for this sir
Nice!:-)
Mike L you give me hope.
Mike L nice,
Mike L i have an 05 rx8 with 147k miles ,maybe the longest living rotary out there! lol
I bet if Nokia built a rotary engine, it would be reliable.
*No one makes Wankel engines anymore, they are inherently inferior to reciprocating designs which is exactly why they are obsolete now.*
@@doktorbimmer
You don't get the joke, do you?
Mandernach Luca I know that guy. He's a Bimmer fanboy who always uses *Bold letters like this* when he's commenting and he's on every Car videos. He either thinks that he's cool when using it, or it's just really his thing. And yeah he takes that guy's comment seriously and he wooooooshed it, I guess he doesn't know how to take a Joke.
*The only joke is the Wankel engine... and the fool that buys a car with one.*
@@moisesezequielgutierrez *its a read my comment move lol*
If your gonna have a FD as a daily. You better have enough gas money
Daily'd mine for 8 months. gas wasnt horrifically bad. just as bad as any other turbo charged car tbh
And ears that are ready to cum a lot
Honestly, it's all about how you drive it. I did a few month-long "tests" with my '84 RX-7, when I still had it. If I kept my foot out of it and drove smoothly and calmly and unhurriedly... I could get the mileage up as high as 26. But if I pulled hard and kept my foot in it all the time - I could easily pull the mileage down to something like 12.
as KOakaKO said, it's all about your right foot. Push it down and you'll get very high consumption, keep it away from the pedal and you'll get very little consumption. I'm still at the first car I own in my life but I experienced this: if I push it all the time at its limits, it'll go down to 10km/L, but if I drive normally, not overpassing, within the speed limits etc. it'll easily get 20km/L or even more! Same principle goes for every single vehicle existing, with NO exceptions. The only thing that changes from car to car is that with certain cars you simply just can't not keep your foot down, but it's all your choice ;-)
XxXSnazzyBananaXxX my 2012 wrx is doing 11mpg , dont think anything can be worst
I think the biggest issue with reliability in rotary engines is the lack of consistent maintenance and not treating a rotary powered car like a rotary powered car. Things like skipping/procrastinating oil changes, not monitoring oil levels until the oil light comes on, babying the car (never sees a redline a day of it's life and in some cases causing carbon lock), driving and shutting off cold, etc. But people make the maintenance aspect of owning a rotary powered vehicle seem like it's such a hassle and out of the way thing to do, but the reality of it is that they just suck really bad at being consistent and the refusal to understand the concept of premixing doesn't help much either (still failing to see the hard part about adding .5 Oz per gallon lol - or 1 Oz. for no OMP having people). But for me the hardest part about maintenance is getting a clear path to redline whenever I get onto the highway just to knock a bit of carbon loose while getting up to highway speed (apparently on ramps in Utah aren't meant for getting up to highway speed because 45 mph in a 70 mph zone is perfectly fine for some reason!!), otherwise it's easier that hell to maintain.
Oil changes?? No I think not. Proper oil, now that's pretty important. Nothing heavier than 20W unless you're premixing. Change coolant every couple of years. Antifreeze and aluminum don't like each other. Low PH will cause deterioration of your O-rings.
I believe that would fall under standard maintenance. Of course you use the correct oil weight and same with coolant changes. My point was mainly on being consistent with maintenance rather than hitting every specific detail and that it's not hard to do like people make it out to be. But you do have a good point as well.
murphystreeter you do realize that the W following the 20 stands for winter which is the designation of the oils viscosity during cold starts i.e. 32F. The number that follows is the actual oil viscosity at operating temperature thus 20w-50. Just FYI.
Yes, thus 5W20....if you want your oil injector to properly lubricate the apex seals. Too heavy and the housing will not get enough oil and you will destroy your engine.
And that's why you premix. can't trust your OMP to do all of the work plus they suck anyway. Only 1 oil injector dead center of the housing is not enough on top of the already low flow. The RX-8's renesis is the only one with a decent OMP system but still isn't enough (2 injectors on either side, S2 has 3, both sides and center which is better, but not as good as premixing). My daily doesn't have oil injectors though and oil is premixed in the carb, OMP does work anyway so it's 100% premix for me (1 Oz. per gallon) and she's a happy little brapper (- the brap part cuz it's only street ported lol)
Also i've been running 10w40 all winter for about 6,000ish miles and the ol' turd did great (still is). Once the temp raises to about 70º average i'll switch back to 20w50 (also did great last summer on that weight)
I had a few replies buried deep into message threads, so maybe I should just post a new topic here...
I have personal experience with rotary engines, both from owning them and working on dozens of friends' cars. (My first rotary was tuning up a friend's RX-4 in 1985.) Since I've worked professionally as an Auto Mechanic, I also have the knowledge and experience and perspective to know what I'm talking about here. Besides other cars that I've repaired, AND the hundreds of times I've explained exactly HOW a rotary works and what you should do when you own one, I've also owned two 1st gen RX-7s.
One was a first-year '79, with the 12a engine (red exterior, black interior). The other was an '84 with the 13b (GSL-SE) - a real comfortable cruiser with hatch window louvers, a removable sunroof, electric seats, and windows, and mirrors, and hatch lock, etc., etc. ALL the fancy extras. I drove each of those cars for about 10 years, and everything in both of those engines was original and untouched. When I drove those cars, they worked best when run between 4k and 9k RPMs. That's where you get the best power out of a rotary! And it burns away any carbon buildup! It's a win-win situation! :D
Yes, the engines in both of those cars were darned reliable. People, for some reason, claim that "maintenance is a nightmare" or some such garbage. First, don't use synthetic oils. The engine is designed to burn something between 1/2 qt. to 1 qt. of oil for every 1000 miles. They have a special oil injector JUST for this purpose, and I adjusted both of mine to burn a full quart of oil for every 1000 miles. (And this MAY be why both engines ran perfectly the entire time I owned them, along with the high RPMs.)
This oil lubricates the apex seals, but it's fine to not know exactly how that works. Just know, if you own a rotary, that it's perfectly normal for them to use a bit of oil. They're supposed to do that. Beyond that... check your oil every week or two, check the radiator every couple of months. Umm... wash your car to keep it clean? The so-called "maintenance" on these things is really just checking the oil, and changing the oil every 3k miles. Just like any other car.
What ISN'T reliable are people who are unable to check their own car's oil every week or two. OR they ignore a cracked radiator hose and pretend it doesn't leak, because they can't be arsed to change a hose - and then their engine overheats so bad it warps a rotor plate. THEN they cry all over the web about how terrible their engine was, because they can't admit to anybody that they were too lazy to bother checking the oil or the coolant and they ran their vital fluids so low that it damaged their engine. Typical for these type of people, really. "It's not me, it's just a bad engine." BooHoo, boys. Never your fault when things go wrong, is it?
REPAIR WORK, on both cars was as expected and nothing out of the ordinary. I replaced belts, hoses and spark plugs - all of which are perfectly normal things to replace on the engine of any car. Rubber hoses and belts get old over time, and need to be replaced before they crack or break and cause problems. Spark plugs (and front brake pads) are consumable items, and need to be replaced after a certain number of miles. (Usually about 50,000, but going as high as 100,000 isn't unheard of - assuming the car is still working properly.) Being older cars, they also had the old-style spark-gap distributor caps and rotors. Those were replaced soon after I bought each car, as part of normal tune-up procedures. I also replaced the battery in each car while I owned them, because a car battery generally only lasts about 4-5 years. The ONLY unexpected repair I had to do was to replace the radio antennae on the '84, about a year after I got the car.
For those who say it has no torque; I say that you don't know how to drive your car. If you're trying to shift gears at 3k RPM, as if it were a small block Chevy or something, then it's not going to work for you. Yes, you are SUPPOSED to redline these engines. Rotaries love Revs! My daily driving habits, for either of my RX-7s, was to shift up at 8k RPM. In that upper RPM range, they have great power. I would put the 1.2 liter and 1.3 liter engines up against cars that had 3-4 liter engines, sometimes even 5l, and I was always ahead of them because you get the best horsepower from your rotary at about 8500 RPM.
Speaking of which, I took both of those cars to SCCA Autocross (SOLO2) racing events. Probably a dozen times for each of them. The '79 did great, because it was so light, nimble as a go-kart, and would just scream around the course at high RPM. (We used to joke that the car had at least 20,000 BeePower, though we never agreed on what that is in HorsePower. :P ) The '84 tried, and it was fun to drive it on the course, but it would never win. It was really loaded down, with thick carpets, soundproofing, heavy removable sunroof, hatch louvers, electric-everything... Great for driving across the country, which I did several times in that car - but not so good on the autocross courses. It was still a lot of fun, with that howling rotary tearing around corners, but it was a HEAVY car.
So what's the punchline here? When I sold the '79 RX-7 (for twice what I paid for it, ten years earlier), it had 290,000 miles on the odometer. And on the day I sold it to an enthusiastic young man, I took it out around the neighborhood and on the highway to show him HOW you drive a ROTARY engine. We were burning rubber off the stop signs, coming sideways around a few corners (isolated area, no dangers), shifting up somewhere between 7k and 9k RPM... and at one point I got up to 130 on the interstate before I backed off and slowed down. (IIRC, that was a little bit over 6000 RPM in fifth gear?) After 10 years of abuse like this, that 12a rotary ran BEAUTIFULLY. It ran strong, and hard, and fast, and STILL loved it's high RPMs. Still on the original engine, with 290k miles. (That kid was so in love with that car, I really should have asked for more money...)
When I sold the '84, I sold it to a (slightly older) friend of mine. Which means I still have visitation rights to go see the old girl. And it had 340,000 miles on the clock. He has more money to spend than I do, so he had it all re-painted in a lovely pearl white. (It's always been white exterior w/ a red interior, and it has the "whale tail" rear spoiler.) He gave it all-new tires, of course. Had the interior cleaned and detailed, but it's all original and all still there. He DID have a mechanic remove the original carburetor (which had about 945 vacuum lines on it) and had him install a new manifold with dual side-draft Weber carbs. So it has MORE power now! Using that DARNED RELIABLE all-original rotary engine!
Yeah. Sure. Just keep saying "it's unreliable", boys. It makes you sound like Mr. Mackey on the Simpsons, when he just kept repeating to the kids, "...drugs are bad, m'kay? So, don't do any drugs. 'Cause drugs are bad, m'kay?" Sure, drugs are bad - but we all know Mr. Mackey didn't know a damn thing about what he saying, and he just kept repeating what somebody had told him. Which meant that everybody just ignored Mr. Macky as a result. Do you want to get ignored like Mr. Mackey?
Do us all a favor and at least TRY to make some reasonable argument for WHY you feel that way. If you're honest, we can have a discussion. If you reply to this and just keep brainlessly saying crap like, "it's unreliable... because... uh... everybody knows that they're unreliable... so it's, just, y'know, unreliable." - then I won't hesitate to explain to you in small words that you are making yourself look very stupid by posting nonsense like that.
I have many friends who have told me similar stories about their engines that kept running forever, so it's not just me. There are many more witnesses out there who have seen that rotaries can keep running great for a REALLY long time. But this whole comment is about MY cars. I KNOW what these cars went through, all the beating, and high-revs, and terrible abuse they went through. The harder they were driven, the happier they seemed to run. :D
The constant redlining, stop-light racing, flying across town because I'm impatient with traffic, and BOTH of those engines were pulling as-strong or stronger than when I first got them ten years before. Those engines weren't wearing out... they just kept getting BETTER the older they got, like a fine wine. And the harder I drove them, the MORE they liked it! And that "awful maintenance" you have to do on these rotaries... uh... just check the damn oil every week or two and make sure you don't have any coolant leaks a few times a year. That's really all it is. If that's "demanding maintenance" to you, then go buy a bus pass because you don't need a car at all.
Yeah, okay, got a little long-winded there. (heh) But I think maybe y'all get the point by now? Maybe? ;)
fuck I feel like I learned so much from this and I don't even have an rx7 yet
I'd like to get clarification on why "boost bad" you know anything about that
Goddammit, now I gotta find myself an rx7.
These are some wise words , this need to be in a book ... "The Legend of the 1.3 Liter Warrior"
U should have changed his carb
not reliable, but predictable! compression tests will tell you if your engine is at the end of its life.. rotary engines suffer from linear wear, its to keep in mind!
I agree wholeheartedly.
Rotors Magazine and why do you say the renesis is not as reliable as the other ones?
As you said, rotaries wear linearly. RX8s don't have as much apex seal to work with as RX7s do, you couple that with the fact that early RX8s by design injected less oil into the engine creating higher friction and higher wear, and you have a shorter lasting engine.
Rotors Magazine ooh ok! yeah that makes sense
hokayuuu777 rotary engines are just as reliable as any other engine,,it all depends on maintainance. I have an all original rx7 with 153,000 miles.
It would have been hilarious if he just said "NO" and ended the video
I miss my RX8. Great car, even though I blew my engine. The first year engines had their problems & I had put on a ton of aftermarket performance parts.
I like how when people blow up modified piston engines its no thing, but when a modified rotary blows up, it is automatically because its a "shit engine". No one ever really talks about comparing mean time to failure. I would never expect 100 kmi out of a performance-oriented piston engine build before needing a rebuild, so why is it required for a rotary? With that being said, when allowed, rotaries actually have a great track record in endurance racing, arguably one of the most demanding forms of racing
*Wankel engine sucked in racing applications... which is why they are no longer mass produced.*
^if youre not sarcastic, its because they were BANNED
+mortaché de muerte *The Wankel engine was never banned... please keep you fake conspiracy theories to yourself... the facts are very clear, the Wankel is obsolete because it was inferior to other ICEs.*
+Not Amerikanski Spy *I think you have already proven your very limited knowledge on this topic... and limited education in general...*
+Not Amerikanski Spy *Childish insults won't prove your failed argument.... they won't make you look smarter either son.*
I have my 2010 rx8 with over 100 K's on the clock. Oil change every 5000...It is a great fun car to drive every day...
Never owned a rotary for many of the historic reasons you mentioned. But have always lusted after the '80 RX7 LS. Good job on the video - I didn't know the apex seals have become so much more reliable.
Great video, you clearly have a good understanding of rotaries and their operation.
Thanks for the info!
It's reliable.......after a rebuild
I can live with that it’s worth it to me atleast
Not really, apex seals are prone to fail without warning at any time, this why they are too unreliable for aircraft applications.
Sander Van der Kammen uhh.. not even remotely true. Who told you that..?
@@DanMarcelino It is absolutely true, it is also well-known and understood throughout the aviation industry.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 they don't fail without warning at any time.. maybe back in the day.. what are you talking about???
Good points. My FD now has 120 miles on a fresh rebuild. Car was bone stock with 72k on chassis. Not as reliable as a piston engine, but the rarity, uniqueness, speed, looks and the aftermarket support hugely outweighs the reliability issue 100%. They don't make cars like the FD anymore. Especially anything as good looking. Timeless.
They are very reliable. Premix is crucial for it to be very reliable.
just found ur channel, got a 06 rx8, thanks for ur vids:) much info
Hey kenny, thanks for your intel. I want to know, is there a headlight housing with dual projectors for the rx8 ?
I used to own a rx8 as my daily driver, amazing car, I really only had a problem with the battery and starter...and the gas consumption lol but I maintained it added oil when I had to. Tbh even the starter and battery I guess wasn't so bad if giving out every 3-4 years, but I ended up trading it (wish I didn't) for a slightly bigger car the 2015 wrx, another amazing car
I have owned 2 85 RX7's. Both had the 12A. One was completely stock the other was rebuilt, bridge ported, racing beet header, webber carb and intake manifold, and few other small mods like the fan pully, msd coils, etc. Both have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned. To bad I lost them both in a pretty bitter divorce. One day I will ride in a rotary again lol.
*Well, it not hard to figure out why you got a divorce... she knows you are a liar too!!!!*
truth. they need to be ran hard with lots of gas and OIL
75% is maintenance and 25% luck.......kinda. know of several in my area that have over 150+ miles on oe engine but in my case the engine did not fail itself but a faulty coolant seal was the reason for the rebuild. if some of the "know it alls" say apex seal is the failure point they know nothing of the engine. the Mazda OE seal is really strong and reliable. if the seal does fail it is the owners fault with poor maintenance. 99% of the time for low compression is caused because carbon build up around the seals and apex seal which in hand does not allow them to move freely (not the seal itself) and the other is because poor tune or improper mods to the car. in my 7 years at the dealer and 15 in the rotary world i have seen countless engines where the whole problem was carbon lock and nothing more causing the low power or no start condition and some of the time simple trans fluid will still allow a no start to come to life. the first gen rx8 with the poor oiling can be counter with premix but that goes back to the owner doing there homework. i have and continued saying if you blame the apex seal you are to blame for the apex seal. i have never had a engine fail because of the apex seal. i am sick of half wits always say something about apex seal this apex seal that when talking "rotary". that like only talking about piston rings on RPE but you talk pistons and cams and heads. the magic is in the ports and nothing more. the best built engines run like crap with a poor port design and thats a fact.
john hare - Well said. ;)
*With a +50% failure rate under warranty its all luck... There might be a few lucky RX owners out there, the rest are just liars or think that flooding and hard starting is normal! **_Lol!!!_*
very well put. I agree with 98 percent of that. They're not cheap, but ceramic seals will last and are easy on the housings at the same time. It will almost double the cost of a rebuild. RX8's side seals seems to wear a little faster too.
I would also like to point out the engine is modular, thus when it fails, you just replace what is broken or worn. Someone handy, with a little help, can rebuild the engine at home - I've done it.
I can't do hondas.
The rotary is great for holding up under high rpm. Good road racing platform. I'd love to have some extra money and time to play with one of my own.
Man I didn't know derrick rose was about that brap life
love your videos bro! planning to get an FC soon
Bravo on the video that was a great explination 😊 I shared it on my fb.
I'm doomed. My RX is my daily driver. Still love my car, glad I bought it.
I've run 91 octane no ethanol fuel since 2006 and regular 5w 20 oil. My 2006 has 271,000 kms on it. I changed the clutch once and the clutch pedal. Same motor so I'm not sure what is considered unreliable but as soon as I hit 300,000 km I feel I will have gotten my money's worth.
peter parker damn dude lol you need to hit up Mazda and show them how many kms you got 😂😂
were you putting 5w20 in the premix or as engine oil? also, did you remove the OMP and went for premix, kept the OMP without premix or kept the OMP AND premixed?
+D Reedy *Limping around with low compression that long is not an accomplishment... its just sad.*
Im looking into buying an RX-8 with low compression die to worn apex seals. The engine isn't dead yet, so I was wondering what brand of seals you would recommend replacing the OEM seals with. Also, would you recommend deleting the oil pump and simply premixing my gas? I planned on premixing regardless, but with stock fuel injectors and whatnot, would this be a wise thing to do?
wow you actually talk about the important stuff. thank you broski
2:30- "apex seals havent been a problem"
3:47- "the apex seals are more likely to fail"
I think you need to pay closer attention
Rizzy4magic nah fam he found a paradox that is the paradox of the rotary engine it lasts long if you’re a slave to maintenance nothing like a piston engine where you can be more abusive and it won’t blow up on you
@@mojojoji5493 in all honesty being a maintenance slave isnt even a thing that's hard change the oil frequently in rotory's change and bleed coolant and make sure plugs aren't all gummed up and injectors are clean and boom your good not hard to drain oil replace the oil filter fill back up drain coolant then fill up and bleed thoroughly till coolant is bled and replacing spark plugs fuel injectors are quite easy to clean and if you dont feel like cleaning them replace them with new ones
InSaNe BoWa not really
InSaNe BoWa having to replace parts so it works doesn’t mean it’s reliable what kinda backwards logic is that if it always has to be fixed it isn’t reliable I’ll say it again if it always has to be fixed it isn’t reliable
I have an ORIGINAL 1980 RX7, owned since new. Other than a new water pump, oil (synthetic), filters, plugs, caps and rotors, batteries, belts, one radiator (corroded and leaked), and the such, I have had ZERO problems with my motor. Still has the original clutch, and the A/C works too!
Granted, the age and miles reflect far less annual driving than a "normal" car, but it has been "reliable."
I think your opinion is quite open and fair in regards the Rx8.
Kenny, it helps to be an old guy and rotary nut since the mid 60's. I'm here to tell you that except for the RX8 motor(sideport exhaust WTF?, FORD junk, many issues, a POS.) all rotaries are potentially reliable. I've owned 3 R100's, an early RX2, and two 1st gen RX-7's I made my first R100(with the original 10A), go 110K miles trouble free, and it only got destroyed because I poorly installed an electric fan that failed in stalled summer traffic from loose connections. The other two got close to 90K. The 84 GSL RX-7(with the original 12B) went 125K before it lost enough compression to refuse to start with the starter motor, and it was run hard most of its life, BUT, with care. Oil changes were often, 3K intervals, and a cold start idle warm up was MANDATORY. Gotta let all the metals expand evenly to temperature first. Keep the air going into it CLEAN, but, many porous, free flow air filters are NOT your friends for longevity. And keep it tuned, check and replace plugs when needed(they never have the benefit of intake air cooling, only the heat of combustion). Keep up the good work, Kenny. Thanks for being part of the Wankel community online. I hope we all can't wait to see Rob Dahm put a billet 4 rotor in a new C8 Corvette. Dig yer channel!
All Wankel engines are unreliable, that is why they were a commercial failure in every application including automobiles.
I respect your thorough knowledge of rotaries, but why would you ever name your dog doge....
Love the video! Reliable or not, rotaries are cool!
still wont go 200,000+ without a rebuild its a pain in the ass to own
Nice videos man, keep it up.
could you please explain me more/better why i should remove my oil pump and premix instead with 2-oil. i dont get it and what is the ratio for the premix. thanks
*2-stroke oil
Next week, tune in :)
+Rotors Magazine ok
Just premix every time 45 gal.. Ratio mixture to 1 percent of oil 6.25
100:1 OR a little rich at 1 oz per gallon. Any ole' 2 stroke oil will do unless you're racing or going nuts.
Tai Lopez talking rotaries
Not a rotary owner, but I always wondered if adding oil to the gas would increase reliability. Interesting video. Thumbs up.
People do this. Either they premix 2-stroke oil in with the fuel, or reroute the oil injector pickup to a separate reservoir containing the 2-stroke oil. 2-stroke oil is engineered to burn more completely
I own a 86' FC turbo with over 143,000 km on the original engine. The car is still going strong with compression was around 109 psi at 135,000 km. I change oil every 3000-5000km and run premix as well. I am saving up for a rebuild anyway, but I would love to see the engine last till 200,000km.
Rotary is lyf going to 13b my mx5 lol
12psi aspiration ;)
James what transmission are you planning on using?
I'm doing a J32A2 swap in my Mx5 right now and the stock 5 speed can hardly handle the 260hp. The 6 speeds are only good up to around 320hp and even then they are consumables.
I purchased a minitek kit for my build. Kit #69
Thomas Riley IDK haven't got a plan yet as its a fair way into the future, thinking rx8 6 speed and an FC drivetrain/lsd
James
damn so your planning a custom drive Shaft, custom axles, transmission adapter plate, transmission mounts, shift turret adapter, engine mounts, and more custom fabrication than full blown car shop would attempt.
I'd predict 10-14k easy.
Here is my build thread if you want to see just how much work coaxing 240rwhp is out of these cars. I'm using the stock drive train to cut a huge chunk of costs that are usually involved in a engine transplant.
www.miataturbo.net/build-threads-57/v6-swapped-mx5-project-named-92278/
Yea pretty much a fab job haha its not for a long time till i start just my plans when i bought the car. And yea ill take a look.
What I got from this: stick with Pistons.
*good advice, kenny is shifting away from Wankel engines to concentrate on Honda now... he finally sees the truth.*
dokotorbimmer( bird brain) is afraid of ernie brink he is on to something***???? giphy.com/gifs/tweety-bird-cvOmdJLyBfpw4/tile
Get an American car it'll last you 50,000 before it brakes down
Absolutely great videos. I love your Channel.
Very informative, thanks!
I had my car tuned by turbosource and ran 15 psi on a fresh engine built by Atkins. It lasted 2800 miles. 1800 miles on boost, 1000 on break-in. Threw the front rotor apex seals through my turbo. Not really sure what happened since everything was new and came from a reputable company and was tuned by a "professional." The ECU had fuel pressure, knock detection, and over boost protection active. Never overheated, premixed as well as having the OMP running. It actually blew-up free reving, which i really dont understand. Got a thumbs up and revved it to 4-5k and came back to idle running on one rotor.
Gas pressure helps with seal efficiency. Revving at high rpm without a load can potentially allow gases to seep past the seals and cause pre-ignition.
mister t is 5000 rpm considered high?
After tear down I found out there was no clearance for the corner seals and it caused the apex seals to bind. I guess Atkins has a history of horrific corner seal clearances
Yes if you were holding it there for any length of time. If you want to free rev you should do it in short bursts so the engine has a slight load to work with.
mister t nah typical short bursts. I'll be posting a dash cam video of it as soon as I have time to edit it down.
Bad engine build, that sux. Just learn to build the engine yourself, it isnt hard and you can avoid crap like this. Hard to trust people these days to do a good job.
been dailying the rx8 for 5 years now, sitting right around 122k miles. no complaints, no rebuilds
It blew up yet ?
No compression either.
Good call on the 12A being reliable! I've had 4 FBs and they didn't need rebuilt until 220k or higher.
Yeah but the 12A was a gutless turd though...
@doktorbimmer only in its stock form. With a better carb and an good exhaust they move quite well
Clear and to the point, subbed
The high rev capability, sequential twin turbo of the 13b, and unmatched smoothness make the rotary FAR superior to any piston engine, as well as how easy they are to get extra power out of. I have a 2015 Final Edition Mitsubishi Evolution and it's a bit faster than the 1993 R1 RX7 I had at college, but if I could have my Rx7 back with the same mileage my Evo has now (5500) I'd take the RX7 back over the Evo. It's the best car I've ever had, and I've had over 15 cars, over 10 of them were sports cars (and NONE were American).
RationallySkeptical superior to any piston engine? Ok dude, it's one thing to say they can be made decently reliable, but you are building more of a case against the rotary by saying as long as it has turbo and as long as you do more maintenence that you would on piston engines. That doesn't seem superior. That's seems inferior, more maintenance, less power without forced induction, worse fuel economy, lower engine life.
12A is pretty reliable many 1st gen FB owners, don't have issue with these motor b/c of the n/a setup, I use to own a FD and it has a lot of issue main is b/c of the turbo. I did 2 engine rebuilt before I sold it. The engine issue was main the ECU b/c it require a lot of tunning whenever there's a upgrade performance parts was installed. Infact many owner at that time period which is about 15 yrs ago, would use a chipped ecu. I was running Pettit ECU but the seriuos guys like weekend racer(who's race in autocross or drag) would prefferred Apexi, Haltech, Mircotech, and Motec ECU those are stand only type.
@Jesse Lee *But the 12A was a gutless turd that made no power...*
they dont burn oil? hmmm. so they dont inject oil to lubricate apex seals? you may want to try again and not over sell the motor. each motor type has its place for low stroke f1 motors, big stroke diesel even rotarys.
i feel that going back to having rotary motors as motor bike motors would be a great way to develop the motors themselves.
if you would've watched the whole video then you wouldn't have laid out all your stupidity for the entire internet to see
Kryotix_YTP excuse me! My stupidity? I did not make a video and falsify information to mke somthing sond better or untrue. You utter shit filled douchbag! One does not need to make it to the end to hear him at the beginning state that they dont burn oil. I dont need to go any further to call him out! No person does.
He said that the engines burn oil and how to make your engine not burn oil by deleting the oil pump and running premixed 2stroke fuel. How the fuck have you overheard that? 3:00
Ahmed Raza 2stroke fuel has oil mixed in... so it would be burning oil. there just is no way around having some kind of oil being burnt whether it be mixed in the fuel or directly injected into the motor.
kris johnson did you see the way he said "burn" though, it's hard to explain the way he said it, but he means not just burn it up and waste it all
This was an amazing explanation as to why the rotary is not seen on the road today but why so many enthusiasts like them
@Kenny Mckee how many miles do you think a 13b will last before a rebuild at 400 whp?
Driving it hard, not all the time but alot.
You think 40,000 miles is doable?
*Today marks the 5 year anniversary of the final demise of the RX brand... the very last Mazda RX was produced half a decade ago on June 21st, 2012*
RIP
due to be reborn in 2019 with the rx9
+eamon hughes Never gonna happen... the RX-9 was a hoax.
+eamon hughes *DISAPPOINTING MAZDA NEWS AT THE TOKYO AUTO SHOW TODAY!!!! THERE WAS NO NEW RX! NO NEW WANKEL ENGINE!!!! R.I.P. RX*
we now live in a time when a new rotary engine. Also rotary, but the tuning will be great. Maybe the tuning will completely remove the gearbox and the lubrication system. Piston - rotor will not rotate along a complex path.
that was a clear and educated opinion, very helpfull thank you boss
I have a very important question, would like your advice on what it could be... I own an 87 FC Turbo 2, when I step on the gas she chokes up and dies, what do you think it could be?
I want a 1993 FD and I've been watching your rotary videos to yelp thank you
I heard pre-mixing shortens the life of the catalytic converter. Is this true? Also, if you took extra care of one of these how many miles do you think you could stretch out a stock engine (series 2)?
I cant help but agree with everything you said.
Not because i genuinely agree but because its so damn adorable how often you adjust your glasses lol
how to prevent the engine from blowing up and replacing the seals???!!!!
What is your take on ceramic coating in the housing
2 fast questions. If you buy an FD and you want to rebuild the engine how much it will cost to full bridgeport and how long it will take for someone like atkins to have the job done? Sorry for my english
Nice honest video and commentary. You have to be a serious rotary fan to put many miles on a rotary. They're not unlike a highly stressed German car. You need to know they can be expensive to maintain as a daily driver past their warranty.
Ty 4 info ,i see that you love mazda and telling that other car is better ,very honest from you.
I want 3 renesis engines for a project of mine. Would it be worth replacing the rotary housing and simply remove the oil injectors and premix?
I always hated rotars but I'm a truck guy so it makes sense, when this video came out I wanted to buy a rotaty so I went and found a junk yard rx7 I got for 1100$ then didn't have a front clip so I went and trashed on t with my friend and we did lots of stuff with it and it finally blew up this summer and now I have a blown up rx7
I had a hard starting issue, I took it to my friends shop he changed the plugs the oil was foamy and watery I realized after changing the plugs but after three starts it became the same hard start issue. The car has 201680 miles. It feels like it works with two cylinders. What would it be the problem?
This is EXCELLENT! Perfect for first time rotary owners!
Kenny, I believe you forgot to point out that the Renesis engine has the exhaust port blocked off on the housing and they moved the output to the iron which restricts exhaust flow in ALL Renesis engines. The 13B, as you stated, is great when it's non-turbo. Mine has 157K and absolutely no signs of hard start. I just finished a 13B MG Midget project with a carb and points ignition. Kinda fussy but I think I need to vent the hood to keep the engine compartment cooled down. Other than that.....Super dangerous!!! Lots of fun when you have an MG that comes out of 3rd gear at 85 MPH!!
I used to machine parts forJet engine seals, and I always wondered if you increased the thickness of an apex seal, polish (lapping method) the friction end, add a high quality surface finish to the bore, and finally creat them out of carbon/charcoal/ ceramic composite. I believe using modern day technology that involves using hardened carbon mixed ceramic composite could create some of the best apex seals ever. They would Handel high temperature flawlessly and would have a tiny friction coefficient. If they are installed perfect and the engine and are to the correct tolerances, they could last an extremely long time.
Making the seals thicker makes them heavier and prone to chatter, this requires more spring pressure that in turn increases wear.
The problem with apex seals is balancing the several conflicting design parameters which all have a compromised solution.
Ultimately the Wankel engine is obsolete technology because they are inherently inferior to reciprocating engines.
1988 rx7 turbo 2 engine rebuild november 2000 still running my only car daily driver from Puerto Rico
My 12a has stock seals and I could pump 30 psi through it and they are fine but my car is also a 83 fb with a jdm low compression turbo 12a
My 1981 was stolen with 115k miles. From the factory, supposed to get 2k miles per 31st of oil. At 110k miles it was getting 1800 miles. At the time I thought there was no reason that my motor would not go well over 200,000 miles. And I had talked to numerous 1st Gen owners who were at 180k or 220k.
Nice channel Kenny.
2000 miles per qt of oil......
*The FBs engine was a lazy, gutless turd considering how much fuel and oil it guzzled... it was fast but not very fast... its performance was due mainly to the fact it was the size of a shoe box and didn't weigh much more than one either.*
Just got back from 2500 miles in my Rotary MG Midget. Points ignition and a 48 IDA. I mix 100:1 or so using a small size Dawn dish soap bottle with 1 oz. marks with a Sharpie. Kept a qt bottle in the trunk as well. I also found that the oil temp in this engine was at it's best when I used straight 30. For some reason my engine oil is disappearing. I'm not surprised since I bought this engine & transmission off of a pallet outside where it had sat for nearly 10 years. Soaked the engine in sea foam for 6 weeks, made it run, and away we go! I'm going to have to take the rubber bumper off and build a hollow tube bumper though, the oil cooler is right behind it and just not getting enough airflow when we're in hot weather. Lots of cleaning on the spark plugs as well. That should get easier as I bring the temp down also. Still shouldn't be using any engine oil so I have to solve that mystery.
noob question here, been wanting to get an rx8 and it calls for a 5w30. I've read that you should run conventional oil in it instead of a synthetic. Can any owners inform me on their choice of oil to run and why, thats for those who don't premix. thanks
HELLO MAN.. HOW DID YOU LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT WANKEL ENGINES ??
Any schools or online courses out there ?? Thanks :p
You should do more videos of this style pretty cool
Welcome to Rotors 2017 :) We'll be mixing these and shop tutorials!
What mix ratio do you use? Do they make special oil for mixing gas for rotaries or can you use any old 2 stroke oil?
Never Premix, this false urban myth is a complete scam started so crooked A-holes can sell overpriced scooter oil to people that live in constant fear that their engine will fail.
I don't own one, just curious.
@@zachsamay2026 Yeah, there are some not very nice people trying to profit off the misfortune of folks that bought these unreliable cars...
So I just picked up an immaculate 1988 Turbo II with 63,000 miles boosts fine, compression is good all that fun stuff original engine though so original seals. It's going to be a third car I picked it up from the original owner for dirt cheap, he knew what he had but also didn't know the value of it . How long should I go at this point before replacing the factory seals?
things to check on a rotary car:
1. omp (oil metering pump)
2. coolant(make sure it's the color it should be and not milky)
3. always watch the temperature gauge!
4. make sure oil level is within specs(min-max)
my 91 got up to 160k miles before I sold it and it never had a rebuild or swap and the current owner is still driving it
im 15 and thinking about an rx8 for my first car, probably keep it for 5-8 years. do you recommend??
That sounds like a really, really bad idea... if you're dead set on a buying Mazda and you want a legitmate sports car? Your only option is a MX5.
Would it be easier on the apex seals if there was a diesel rotary? I heard that because of the properties of diesel, the mechanical parts of the fuel system of a Diesel engine get lubricated by the fuel itself. Yes, I know, the because of the EPA, it would likely not take off due to emissions.
*That is absolutely untrue, Diesel fuel is not a good lubricant and only has a lubricity rating of just **_600 μm_** so no significant effect or improvement on lubrication of apex seals.*
*The reason why Diesel is not used is it does not have octane ratings and does not have adequate resistance to knock which is the primary cause of apex seal failure.*
what rotary engines are the least reliable? I picked up turbocharge and Renesis
Do you think it's possible to find a descent RX-8 with a budget of 5k?
Great channel!
I might be buying a fb rx7 with the 13b hasn't ran in 4 years should I even bother starting it? or just rebuild it and do Apex seals right away and not risk losing a housing or iron? I'd love to run it but I'm afraid it would gernade very quickly and id lose a housing. I'd like to turbo as well so fuck it, guess I'll tear it apart.
ok so for an example a carbonated 20b would likely last longer than the twin turbo?
thank's I learned a lot
Can someone let me know what kinda of mpg does a average 350hp rx7 get? I know it's a sports car I am just curious.
awesome vid man
what about air filters? keep the paper one? add an k& n drop in filter.. or swap the whole intake with an after market
MORE AIR!!! MORE AIR!!!
Let's just hope Mazda does bits with the skyactive-r
Original owner of an 04 RX8. No rebuilds. No major issues. It likes going on long highway trips. Still has good power. 60k miles.
This all depends on the driver also not just maintenance. my series 1 rx8 lasted me 169,000 miles on its original engine, the transmissions are crap giving out 5 times before I received a good one from the dealer. the reason the engine gave out was because I ran over a hog on the highway doing 80 busted the radiator in half and it overheated giving out on the coolant seals. other than that great car!
nice appreciate your honesty son just bought an 05 with 100000 on it
Thanks man a lot!
Best advice is to never buy a Wankel engine if you expect to actually use it, these are basically becoming museum pieces.
you know its not possible when even the japanese can't make something go 100k miles plus
thanks Kenny for the entertainment love the comments on here
On the idea of roller Apex seals it would increase the reliability and resiliency where I believe it could handle boost someone needs the mock up an engine with roller Apex seals have the posts come off the end of the tips of the rotors then you have a recessed area on the tip of the rotor where the roller will Spin and at the end it will all wear those posts are will hold the roller it would make it a lot more reliable design
*How will you form a gas tight seal between the roller and the tension springs? The roller must be able to float to accommodate the changing clearances. How will you seal the corners? This is where much of the leakage already occurs... a roller would only make the leakage worse.*
What about silicon nitride apex seals? I hear that they are the most reliable available today.