Michael Shermer - Death, How To Avoid It, and Why You Shouldn't Be Afraid | CS Podcast #2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 เม.ย. 2019
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Dr Michael Shermer is an American historian of science, editor-in-chief of Skeptic magazine, and author of nearly 20 books, including Heavens On Earth, The Moral Arc, and Why People Believe Weird Things. He speaks to Alex about how we should respond to the inevitability of death, and why we shouldn't be afraid of it.
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Thanks to Dr Shermer for coming on the podcast. I really enjoyed this conversation and am excited for future episodes. Let me know of any suggestions for guests I should have on!
I don't know if you noticed but there's a TH-camr called WhatDoYouMeme and he made three responses to your slavery video. No rush but I would love to see how you would respond.
Schermer used to be a "Fundie" and his reaction-formation, like that of the fictitious Saint Paul, seems quite complete. The whole atheist argument seems very dishonest as any absolutized construct of "God" will always be less than the constructor and therefore not "God".
I think speaking to Atheism-is-Unstoppable would yield an absolutely fascinating conversation. You both started out debunking religion but are now both branching out and applying principles of scepticism to wider areas of discussion as the cultural conversation shifts, plus he's absolutely unafraid to stand for principles of free expression. I think he would be perfect.
When it comes to death, my view for a while now has been: stop worrying about things you have no control over. Let death be what it will be. There are more relevant things to care about.
What if there is an afterlife and it's just nothing but straight hell for everyone!? There's no god governing it. There's no rhyme or reason for it. Just straight hell for both saint and sinner. It's just the nature of the afterlife.
What are you going to do about it?
edit: It's like, "look, there's death that the end of the timeline! Say hi to death! Okay great. He ain't going anywhere. Now what?"
edit2: Alex, if you ever get the time, I hope you watch this video, at least where I time stamped it. This was one of my psych teachers from university. He is religious but what he talks about in this video has stayed with me ever since I took his class. I'll never forget it.
It's not about death, directly, but where I time stamped it talks more about selfishness, particularly where he talks about his own personal experience.
th-cam.com/video/kWjuJxvWdFc/w-d-xo.html
Fantastic stuff, as always.
Im an atheist and i find that i think about death multiple times a day. Not because im afraid of what will happen but im saddened by the fact one day its guaranteed i will cease to exit entirely
Im not saddened by it, its like how im not concerned with the time before i was born, non existent.
It doesn't sadden me, but I don't see an advantage in not existing.
@@influenzaz1012 Same here. I've been atheist for over forty years, and quite aware of my mortality for that time, but it doesn't bother me. I was even diagnosed with cancer, with a 2/3 chance of surviving a mere five years from then, and that didn't make me focus on death or turn to religion. I don't remember what it was like before I existed, and I can't really imagine what it will be like when I'm gone, but my life is very clearly finite. I don't worry about what's done with my body when I'm dead, either. I won't have any use for it, and nothing done to it will cause me pain, embarrassment, etc. I miss those loved ones who have died, but have never cared about going to cemeteries to think about them or talk to them. Sure, I can call spirits from the misty deep, but why bother? It was a bit surprising that Alex worries so much about death at his age. I didn't even exercise reasonable caution back then, much less have any sort of terror of death. Terror of the afterlife makes sense, for those indoctrinated into such beliefs, but what's terrorizing about nonexistence?
In an infinite universe anything is possible. I just think one day the random materials that came together and gave me consciousness will happen again one day. Makes me feel a little better.
Take heart. One day, this too will end.
We are the last generations who will die on ancient earth.
There are people being born now, who will never die.
Alex: "I'm afraid of death"
Michael: "Lol why"
Alex: "Because it's scary."
Michael: "Lol just don't be scared."
*facepalm*
because in his heart he knows he is wrong about God.
@@fishingva9946 how do you know about what his heart is? are you God to know such things? or are you one presuming to be on such a level with God to know such private things about people's hearts?
If God exists, then God is God. And you best stay away from his domain of judging people's hearts my friend
Everyone is afraid of death if atheists get it right then we would perish for all existence, and if Christians are right or any other religion with an afterlife then that is infinitely better than death.
@@DomainAspect Is it better, much more infinitely better? In the atheist death, you don't suffer. You don't even know you're dead. You just simply cease to exist. You're not around to be upset that you're dead. Just like you weren't around before your conception. What's the issue?
Whereas religious eternity is something you can never escape. Particularly in the Christian Heaven, you essentially have to be functionally drugged in bliss by Yahweh's presence in order to refrain from an existential dread of missing loved ones who aren't with you (and are being eternally tortured, to boot), or an existential madness in which you are never going to get a break out from what could possibly be a monotonous eternal existence. Think of Cherubim who sing "Holy Holy Holy" 24/7, would something like that really be better than just checking out in annihilation?
In some sense, it almost seems like two sides of the same coin. But either way, I'm not so sure that anyone can assert one as better than the other. Just flatly claiming that eternal life is infinitely better doesn't make that conclusion sound. I'd be much more interested in hearing some support for that suggestion. If you just simply believe it'll be great, then that's fine. But you'd have to appreciate that one may believe that annihilation would be equally as refreshing.
In both cases, you aren't suffering. And if religious afterlife is bliss, then neither option sounds like a bad deal.
Tbf, "I'm afraid of death because it's scary" is kinda leading to a circular place. (why is it scary? because it makes me afraid)
Don't mind me I'm just 3 years late to the party.
i really, really don't understand the fear of death itself. i'm 20, but i think about death a lot, philosophically. the only scary thing about death i can think about is to think of your loved ones grieving for you. that's what really scares me, to an almost patological degree. often i wish i were completely alone in life, just for that reason
you are unlucky i don't have loved ones
I dont fear being dead. I fear ceasing to exist. I love life so much that I want to be alive forever, as a result I dont ever want to die. Once I am dead however, i wont be capable of caring at all.
You will care and how you will. If not now, at the latest when the one who created you and every single one of us will wake us up, when He will give life to the dead and we'll will be informed about what we brought along and He surely has the power to do so. The desire of being alive forever has been put in ourselves. To Him is the final return and when we'll be standing in front of the Lord we'll be a witness against ourselves.
@@MH-bw9zt you could just educate instead of being arrogant i don’t believe in god but whats true is you die but in a sense even tho it rly doesn’t matter either way the atoms that made you can and will not ever die so theres that
It must be nice not fearing death
Yes...it is nice, thanks for asking.
The reason why people don't fear death is usually because their life is pretty terrible.
To be honest, I get anxiety attacks whenever I deeply think about my mortality. Like a crushing weight, the thought of being never able to think or feel or exist, it makes my brain shut down.
"Everyone is "I" to themselves" - Alan Watts
As long as there's new organisms born in the universe after you cease to exist, then death will always be followed by a new "I". The "I" of one of those new brains.
Loved the podcast episode, thanks for uploading the video!
I like the idea of nano technology that just repairs our body
It seems the most plausible
and then eats it
I have been terrified of death since my 19s... and I don't think it has to do with religion, purpose or being "wrong" (I'm an atheist)... it's just that I'm scared of what I don't know, what I can't know... I like living... and I spent a big chunk of the first 19 years of my life wanting to be dead... and now that I don't, know that I'm happy at my 30s I don't want this to end for something unknown and most likely something... that's nothing...
Fear of the death is, for me, a reason to be religious... because if I could I would believe in a pleasant afterlife if only to avoid feeling anxious, panicky and miserable every time I think of death.
I get what you're saying. I kind of feel the same way. And the only thing that's holding me back from turning to religion is that I don't want to follow a dogma that I think is false.
Cosmic Skeptic! Wow, Dr. Shermer! I've loved his talks. I think once we evolved consciousness, we started asking why, how and such. I think we also want the afterlife because, we not only want life, but we also want our loved ones back, and religion just used it, to control. Excellent talk. Love and Peace
Really looking forward to this, studied Death myself it's a very rich and diverse topic!
Do you also like ask a mortician? She seems to attract death curious people with a morbid sense of humor.
Was anyone else compelled to work out today as a result of listening to this, or was it just me? I became very acutely aware of my own mortality while listening. Really enjoying listening to these podcasts on my commute to uni and church. Looking forward to seeing what topics you cover next!
Are you a priest?
Shermer is a bit much of a technological optimist. Problems will just take care of themselves. The market will sort everything out. Yadda yadda yadda.
Michael Shermer is like a reassuring dad
I taught myself a long time ago not to spend too much time worrying about things I can't control, like death and mortality. There's barely enough time or energy to worry about things that are under your control; and when you stop to consider how little you actually have control over in your life, it makes life a lot easier, I think.
When I saw your video about you explaining the stages you went through before you decided to be an athiest it was like a turning point to me. I finally confronted my family about being an ex-muslim and it was a great relief keep up the good content your content is far more than just arguments and debunking at least for me thank you ❤
Personally, the finiteness of life is what stops me from doing things I want to do. I'm constantly trying to achieve everything I should, rather than what I want, as it will at least put me in a situation where I can do what I want, eventually; but, I may be old by that time... Hopefully not.
Funny isn't it, you work to get to a position were you have enough to do what you want, then you just die and all your achievements or lack thereof fade into the never ending black of time.
You don't even have to die. By the time you have enough to retire and do what you originally wanted, your psychology might be so different that what you originally wanted has been so damped that your work-force trained brain no longer has the capacity to enjoy anything that doesn't have the same structure of your decades long struggle.
That's how capitalism works. It only truly satisfies the capitalist. Your satisfaction is bound to a carrot on a stick that turned foul once reached. You're never living in the now. You're always looking into the future and a better time. Until your children have grown up and you've barely seen any of it. What really matters is the now. That's where you always are.
Stephen Scanlon
We live life in fear - regardless.
@@Luftgitarrenprofi Valar morghulis,
An hour just isn't enough time to have a conversation.
You hit my really soft spot here. When I was in my teens and 20s (I'm 43 now) I was terrified of death. I envied my Catholic friends who did not to have that fear because they KNEW they would one day join Jesus in heaven. I wanted to believe so hard, you have no idea! Because I wanted afterlife to exist, it had to exist and to think otherwise was unbearable to me back then. Now, I learned to cope and make peace with it, but sometimes I still have hard time thinking that one day everything is going to be switched off, and I'll go into non-existence.
Love the drawing of Hitch in the back of your room
1:02:17 Damn, Alex. That's the smoothest segue I've ever seen.
Thank you for giving a platform to someone who is often denied them these days. I'm guessing that he would not be invited to your university regardless of the topic involved. Good show, Alex.
23:00
What a Loving Soul Michael Shermer is....
My All Time Favourit!!
Soma (a video game)does a great job of demonstrating the continuity issue. Great game.
Seems to me that Michael Shermer has adapted to his own fear of death by saying let's not think too deeply about death.
Shermer's point that the purpose behind religion was to maintain order and law makes sense in the past but that no longer applies to the modern world. That would suggest death anxiety is a big factor.
Really good intro just a bit longer than I'd like it to be. Keep up the good work😄👍
Great show!
Thanks Alex. A very entertaining conversation but too short. Like Michael I was surprised to hear that you are terrified of death at 20. I'm 62 and have only just started to think about it. Not so much the inevitability but just coming to terms with it, perhaps like yourself, in a fear free way. A big ask I know. I guess it's not death but the dying process that we should be more concerned about. I've still not worked it out yet.
You just started thinking about death at 62? I’ve been thinking about it for years and I’m 27. I don’t know how people go so long without thinking about the inevitable. Anyway I hope you live many more years.
really great talk!
Great conversation.
10:49 - Fear of death would be pretty far down the list for someone who genuinely believes they're going to an eternal afterlife, right?
Great podcast so far.
Try to get Sam Harris on to discuss his „objective morality“.
To be fair, Harris doesn't describe his ethical system as "objective". He says the word confuses the problem.
Austin Mann
Maybe I should take a look at this once again. Have to get myself a copy of „the moral landscape“.
Shame on me I haven’t done so yet.
LMBAO! Does anyone still take Sam seriously? Other than those on the right who see him as a tool for their ends, who takes anything he says seriously?
It is sad when people shape or base their lives on the tiny possibility of life after Death...when no Souls have ever been detected in Particle Physics!
Interesting point
It's just as meaningless as any other goal or ambition in life.
good topic, but seems like the guy just ignores the fear tho
Nope. Just really doesn't think it's relevant.
And may not care about it to the degree that he's forgotten how much it scares other people.
Happens to me.
I agree, I can’t remember ever b being scared of death. I honestly struggle to understand how someone can fear it. It seems is natural to me as breathing, eating and shagging 🤷♀️
It’s certainly not from a place of superiority or unwillingness to understand the fear of others, I just can’t seem to wrap my brain around it
Love you Alex :*
Whoa dude.. Mike Shermer?? He's one of my favorite JRE guests. Now he's one of my favorite Cosmic Skeptic guests!!
Definitely Top 2 of all time.
That whole deadline hypothesis is bunk. You have an expectation of 80 so shorter time pushes, but if you lived for 500 or longer you couldn't sit still. Boardom would prevent that. You can only do nothing or the same thing over and over and over before you seek new experiencs.
If we lived to 500 why don't you think that we would just find ways to stretch out the same stuff we're doing right now rather than doing more of different things? I mean just look at how it is currently. 80 years is a long time. Long enough for you to have three 15 year careers and still retire for another 25. Yet what is the ideal goal for somebody? You ask the average person over 30 and most will tell you that the ideal would be to not have to switch fields/careers. Most people work in one to two different fields over their lifetime perhaps having a career change in their 40s. I think a lot of people see life much more in terms of a fraction of their lifetime. The first 20 years is somewhat fixed biologically based on development but for most people they spend their middle 50% of their lives working to both maintain their current lifestyle and to build wealth for the last 25% where they coast. If you knew from a young age that you would be living only till 50 then more than likely I would imagine you would start trying to work as soon as you could and work until you're around 35-40 where are you would want to retire and enjoy your spoils. How does it not follow that if you knew you had 160 you wouldn't even start worrying about getting a house until your 40s and being able to retire until you were a hundred and twenty. We are great problem solvers but also great at finding things to mindlessly occupy our time.
I would argue that fear of death is seen to be of secondary importance in some cases. I'm at 17:44, so maybe you are going to talk about this later, but self sacrifice or accepting big risks is a common feature in many or most gregarious species. Also, empathy and altruism are seen in most gregarious species in many cases where death is not an issue. Maybe death is a lot more important among humans because we have a much clearer sense of what death is, and this is why we have created such a mess with death and religion. But we should expect a lot of our conduct to be different if fear of death were the primary mover of our conduct.
Shermer is one of my favourite thinkers. It is great to see atheists softening their relationship to the world without compromising its position. He has always been one of the more reasonable heads.
@Europa H2O Alien Yes! Totalitarianism! Of course! That's my ultimate amalgamate militant atheistic goal too. Thanks for letting me know the secrets of our wicked hearts.
This was an awesome conversation! Thanks Alex! I loved your guest
I've noticed something about Alex O'Connor. He seems very good at doing thought experiments and considering abstract concepts. I think the same way myself that's how I'm able to notice it. Alex O'Connor is a powerful thinker. Alex consider studying physics, or biochemistry, we could use minds like yours.
*inertiaforce:* _"Alex consider studying physics, or biochemistry, we could use minds like yours."_
- Why should he consider himself a tool for others to profit? Why not benefit himself instead? If he's so worried about his death, why not try to do something about it? (Hint: physics or biochemistry aren't probably going to help much prolong his life).
Very good!
Great job, great interview. I appreciated your questioning Dr. Shermer about the identity/continuity question (uploading memories vs. cryogenic freezing issue). I was hoping you would ask him what you asked him. If you talk with him again, I’ll be glad to listen. Thanks Alex!
Death is really nothing to be afraid of. Yet it is the nothing that everyone is afraid of.
But how can you be afraid of the "nothing" if there is no "you" present to perceive or comprehend the "nothing" you mention.
Well I personally fear the time when my consciousness ends. Why wouldn't I?
@@Pyriphlegeton why would you? You don't worry about the time before your conscience started do you ( i.e before your birth)?
@@xMckingwill
Of course I don't, that is nothing that will still happen to me. It's in the past and I'm goddamn happy that my consciousness arose from it. :D
I know how awesome it is to be conscious and I don't want to lose that again.
Do you?
Ask a mortocian does a good video or better videos on death awareness. Because you have a 100 % mortality rate. Dramatic pause. Being death-aware makes life more lively and valuable.
Same here. I'm an atheist, and I used to be, I think its fair to say, terrified of death. No more sights and sounds, no more taste and smell, the sensual word, and my appreciation of it, gone forever. Now I'm older I don't worry about it. I'm more concerned about having control over my death. I don't want to be in a care home with my identity ebbing away from Alzheimer's.
I must say I like the idea that art arose as part of mate attraction, since it is a demonstration of the prowess of the artists' communication skills - a very important faculty in social animals.
It then makes sense that religious art is a form of "peacocking" to attract Gods' favours. I hear so often from theists that art is the result of inspiration from God - they cite the fact that in the European middle ages, most art was religious (while conveniently forgetting that as far as it goes, religious subjects have been a mere blip on the history of art) to back their claim. I have always found this claim to be unconvincing.
It will not be like being under general anesthesia because that implies that your body will still be there as a placeholder awaiting consciousness to resume - no, in death the body will decompose and therefore no longer be a placeholder. Instead, you'll be so gone that the experience of whatever organism happens to be born after you've ceased to exist will be the experience that comes after yours. You will not be there to stop it.
NICE CONTENT
My fear of death is being reborn as a different person or organism that has a bad life. Like for example a chicken in a meat factory and have my neck slit open or being born as a slave and being used my entire life. I feel very lucky with the life I have now
52:10 I agree with you Alex. Its exactly like the star trek example you give. I like the elevator one; Its an elevator to the moon and all your atoms are destroyed but recreated on the moon. Is it still you? Continuity for me has little to do with it as well. Your future self example where the body is wholly different is perfect. For me, neuroplasticity is important to remember. If we upload to the cloud are we uploading our ability to for new neural connections? As someone with a humble bachelors in phil you are gold Alex. Your content is top notch, not biased or underlined with some bullshit political stance or something. You do great work, and I know youve said before you dont know if this is your career which is totally fine. But currently I consider you the Bertrand Russell of our time. You blow my mind and its a pleasure to know people like you are out there fighting for reason.
At around 41:41 the topic of free will & determinism comes up, and at 42:02 Shermer points out that acting as if one has free will is a useful fiction even if it is completely an illusion, but I would go further (depending on how far the notion of a fiction - compared to e.g. faith - reaches in terms of known or unknown potentially underlying support for the belief in a fiction, consisting of some amount and strength of arguments for it) than just saying that, because I see rational, case distinctions involving reasons (in the form of strategies to ''cover'' multiple cases at once) that can explain why humans would behave this way, and in here I'd like to elaborate on this although it likely isn't really a new idea and other people probably have thought or written about it or understand this subconsciously, and I don't know if this has already been pointed out in the comments or if this may be old news, given that some time has already passed since this video became public, but at least in this past moment - roughly from 42:26 to 42:55 in the video - although I'm aware he's talking about how others may react to being confronted with this concept, CosmicSkeptic expressing this kind of dilemma this way, to me makes it seem as if he at the time was maybe unsure himself as to why people may based on rational reasons behave as if they have free will, and these reasons didn't seem to have come up later either which is why I thought it could be helpful to bring it up.
However, because I think Shermer technically probably rather means something else, namely either an extended concept of free will (of which I don't think it is always self-explanatory that that is what people mean when they say it) rather than just a sole free will, as in the personal capacity to determine by oneself to a certain degree what in various moments it is that one wants or wants to do, achieve or have, though in this sense not necessarily tied to the as implication of this thinkable property to also actually be able to influence anything else, e.g. what physically happens, besides the ''orientation of one's own will'', as I would at least preliminarily disassemble the free will concept into those 2 components as far as it implicitly is meant to encompass both. Or something that is closer to the idea of possessing a personal capacity or power to at least in some significantly relevant manner take part in influencing what the future e.g. in one's temporally & spatially local environment will be like in the future. Because of this hunch, in my mind I'll substitute the term free will with this interpretation here.
But here would be a plausible rational reason for it making sense to act as if one had free will:
Assuming one either can influence certain aspects, or one cannot at all influence any aspect (or any aspect besides what one wants at a given time) relevant to how the future will unfold, and provided that trying to behave according to one's presumed free will in a way such that the future unfolds in a better, preferable manner (e.g. based on having past experiences that support the view that one would in principle be reliably skilled to do so) would be estimated by oneself to be sufficiently successful if it had an effect on the future & more so compared to not trying to do so, and finally assuming one is in a situation in which one is not sure which of the 2 cases holds and may not be able to find that out, then one may realize that if one acts as if one had free will one may gain from doing so in the case that one had free will all along and that one would not lose nor risk to lose anything in the case that all aspects of the future were outside of one's ability to change them to begin with since any by a presumed but in-existent free will wanted changes and attempts to cause them by personal action would be effect-less; whereas if one would opt to not even try to behave as if one had free will (and instead rely on all power to shape any and all aspects of the future being forever outside of one's own reach), then - while again not losing nor risking to lose anything by doing so in the case that indeed one never was able to influence the future (and so the gamble turned out to be successful, so to say) - one might miss out on a better future if one actually did have free will with the power to influence the future.
Hence, people may have a rational reason (namely to not risk a worse but avoidable future) to behave as if they have a free will. But the critical, determining factor for this decision process would appear to me to be one's perception of one's own capability to want ''the right things'' and act in a successful manner accordingly, since if one's assessment of this aspect results in judging oneself to be (e.g. certainly and forever) badly equipped to do so, one may just as much forego trying to act out one's free will, depending on how one's view would be on how the future would unfold in the remaining cases, for comparison.
I am still with you alex, the unconciousness is strong and mysterious deep. You cant say that the awareness of death didnt push the human motivation. Its undeniable. If it would why not talk casually about death, why not think its ok that people disapear, because we know everyone has an expiration date, that can run off any time, and thats ok. That makes life life. And people dont want to talk about death till they face deathawareness that can be come by becoming atheist, or loosing a close relative. Ask a mortician talks a lot about it, because caitlyn is a mortician.
And the fear of dying gets even suicidal people, so it it one of our main driving factors, if not the one. In a complex context but still. 1 point for you.
*Jon Snor:* _"You cant say that the awareness of death didnt push the human motivation. Its undeniable…"_
- I deny it.
All the talk seems to be about fearing or not fearing ones own death; but for me, as an atheist, my own death is not something I believe I am ever going to experience and therefore fear does not enter into the equation. I might fear dying, but not death. Other's deaths, however, are another thing. I fear those. Almost from the start of our lives we are losing family, friends, pets, heroes etc. and that is something that causes us real fear and suffering in this life. At least our own deaths mean that that fear and suffering is over.
It's interesting,
No one seems to worry or panic about the world or the time before they were conceived/Born when we did not exist and seem to have no issue conceiving that.
Yet we do worry and panic when it comes to death which one can argue is essentially the same as the time before you were born. In the sense that we cannot perceive the world in either case.
@___________________________________ but why worry about the time that will come if you are incapable of being aware of it in the same way you were incapable of being aware of the time that passed before you were born?
Either way you and your conscience will not and did not exist. So why worry about it at all?
But I guess this is on the assumption that there is nothing after death and that you and you conscience cease to exist.
I get what you're trying to say but I don't really think you've thought it well. Just my opinion, though.. doesn't really make sense
@@eyelessjack8260 nah i though it well
but what if i already panic on both sides of the unknown
@@eyelessjack8260 It makes perfect sense. When we die we will return from whence we came prior to conception i.e., no consciousness.
Even if your mind upload is still a copy that doesn't invalidate it. People have always been determined to leave a legacy whether through a bloodline, social effect or otherwise. A digital copy would be the most valuable legacy you can have: yourself.
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
How do we apply this particular concept to human beings? It's quite possible that there's only nothingness after death, but it doesn't seem to be that simple to me.
I find myself in agreement with Alex O'Connor on most of what he says in his videos. Yes Alex you are correct in thinking about death and its meaning I'm surprised that Michael Shermer is not thinking about this the Way You Are.
*inertiaforce:* _"Yes Alex you are correct in thinking about death and its meaning…"_
- How can you possibly be correct (or incorrect) "in thinking about death and its meaning"? The end result of that thinking may be correct or not but that's a different story.
Re: Cryonics
It's a superficially interesting concept, but I don't think it stands up to inspection.
1) Freezing cells wrecks them - the water within them turns to ice and the cell explodes. You can use a sort of antifreeze to prevent that, but all the ones we can currently make are also lethal or damaging to cells. [There are frogs that can freeze solid and revive when thawed - we don't know how they do that yet.]
2) Most people who die do so for good reason; you need to invent the fix for whatever that was before you can think about bringing someone back, assuming you've addressed #1. That is likely to be decades later. Cryonic storage cost money. When your bequest to the cryo company runs out, of what possible use is someone who's knowledge is decades or centuries out of date? Curiosity, perhaps - so our descendants can see what the cavemen looked like in action?
What scares me about death is the eternity when you die that's it for ever and ever and ever and ever
We've already spent eternity being dead and it didn't bother us the tiniest bit, why would we fear death then? I'm actually very excited whenever I think about death because I hope I will learn what's going on.
I'm reading one of Michael Shermer's books right now so I clicked on this video the second I saw it. I completely disagree with him however. Alex is completely right in my opinion about death and the fear of it being one of the main and strongest motivators in religion and people's lives. Personally, the way Mr. Shermer was speaking, it sounds like he's denying the fact he's afraid of death as well. I don't think anyone can honestly say death in regards to themselves is a comfortable topic. Also- no offence intended, but asking Alex's age and the way Mr. Shermer spoke at times felt quite sanctimonious and rude. Thank YOU Alex for an excellent video as always! Would love to hear more of YOUR opinion on death and our innate fear of it.
The best explanation I’ve heard for the question “ what is it like to be dead” is, “well, what was it like before you were born” !!!
The difference is before you were born there is no you to give a shit. However your death or non-existence afterlife is the annihilation of whatever it is to be you. I have no concern with the state of being dead but rather the termination of me.
Michael Fregoso Yes, ultimately it’s a conscious problem, however the motivations and thoughts (ego) behind the fear of dying will also cease once we die, they are only things we can experience while alive/conscious. I don’t fear death, I only fear a painful death.
Is that Christopher Hitchens poster beside Michael Shermer's bookshelf?
Ernest Becker anyone? Denial of death? Would have liked to hear his name mentioned and a little discussion about his writing.
Definitely an interesting writer for his time. It certainly was influenced by the time he wrote and is not as accurate with what we scientifically know today but he still pushed the discussion in an interesting way.
And think his writing about humans as both symbolic and biological creatures gets to the heart of the matter. Birth and death of meaning second edition really good book. Would have liked to hear if they had read him and what they thought of his writing style
As antinatalist , I love ceasing to exist.
@@tonyrisso2390 actually , i will kill my self . I will join the army this summer to get a gun and shoot myself
@ indeed
As long as there's an organism born after you've ceased to exist, there will be an experience after yours, via that new organism. ---- You will not be there to stop it.
@@antinatalist3686 Are you still alive?
@@randomearthling4073 yes , and still planing to commit suicide by joining my country s army to get a gun and shooy my self in the head.
Alex’s fear of death reminds me of Julian Barnes’ memoir Nothing to be Frightened of. Both spend too much time in their own heads
I've recently become strongly convinced that our universe is very likely a simulation. I used to be an atheist but now I must acknowledge that it's likely the universe has a creator. So I can't really call myself an atheist anymore, but the upside is that I have no idea what will happen when I die. Literally anything is possible. I'm writing a book about this and probably will also make a TH-cam series. Cheers to Alex and Dr Shermer, big fan of you both!
Interesting. What convinced you? I've been thinking about simulation hypothesis a lot myself.
@@inertiaforce7846
Well the answer to that question requires an entire book, but the most compelling argument in my opinion is the probability argument. If we assume it is possible to simulate the universe from within the universe (a big assumption, I realize, which is why a large part of the book is dedicated to bolstering that assumption with physics), then simulated beings would vastly outnumber "real" ones. I not only think it is possible but I think there are a lot of clues that point in that direction, and also that every discovery we've made so far allows for such a simulation, whereas none preclude it, which didn't have to be the case. Finally, as a software engineer, I see exactly the features I would predict to see in a simulated universe.
@@ConsciousExpression if it's possible to create a simulated Universe then I agree with you that it would be likely that we ourselves would be one of the simulations. However I don't know if it's possible to create a simulated universe but I do find the hypothesis interesting nonetheless. What really interested me is the last part of your post here. You said that you see features that you would predict for a simulated universe. What are these features?
@@inertiaforce7846
There are literally too many to list, which is why the book, but I'm pleased that you're curious so I'll lay out some of my cards briefly. In order for the universe to be simulated, at least according to the principles I am familiar with as a software engineer, there are required features that we must see. Keep in mind that I am only briefly listing some here, these are all justified via a great deal of theory and philosophy.
There must be a smallest unit of energy. There must be a smallest unit of time. If the method of simulation is holographic projection, the fundamental units of matter must be non local to a given volume of matter, and when you look at the building blocks closely, they should appear to be ephemeral in some way. Furthermore these building blocks must be indistinguishable from each other, having no discernable fine detail to make them unique. And because these building blocks must be reused, we should expect to see correlations between them even when separated by large distances.
All of these features are present in our universe, as well as several more that I intend to talk about in detail in the book. None of these features are intuitively explained by any other theory as far as I know, in fact some still baffle physicists while others are simply accepted because the data demands it.
Hopefully that satisfies a but of your curiosity and thanks for asking!
Anyone know the name of the opening song?
This topic of death has been brought up thousands of years ago by the Bible, it is said that "death" has been defeated. It's interesting how relevant the ancient Bible is
If you want a long healthy life, you could read "How not to die" from Michael Greger MD from nutritenfacts.org . He uses a large amount of good studies to show, how not to die from the most common causes and how to be healthy. He focuses mostly on Diet.
Spoiler alert:
He recommends a fully plant based diet, based on whole foods.
nice intro but it went on a little to long
How so? Im in the beggining btw
@@TheGabrielPT it was just to long. I like a intro quick and simple or else I get bored. And what do you mean by you were in the beggining?
@@benl6998 i agree 100% I think it doesnt really match the vibes of his videos
I miss the dark humor and snarkiness of Alex in his earliest videos. I think he's still just as sharp, but has matured too quickly.
I find most interesting what this Computational Neuroscientist originally said about human consciousness not being theoretically impossible; that it could be transferred to a computer incrementally via adaptation: He stated:
"It is possible that a clever computer could become quite integrated into the brain in support of memory, enhanced perception, and even enhanced thought. Such a machine might adapt and support neural activity to such an extent that it becomes better at it than the brain. Eventually it doesn't really need its biological half, and could operate just fine without it, carrying the identity of the former biological brain owner forward."
Frank Turek and the debate in a single sentence? Nope, never happened. Frank Turek doesn't understand what a debate is, because he's unable to form an argument, he spits out random opinions.
"Just as a well-filled day brings blessed sleep, so a well-employed life brings a blessed death." - Leonardo da Vinci
"Death anxiety is greater in those who feel they have lived an unfulfilled life." - Irvin Yalum
"Essentially death is so far off, it's not something you even need to think about" = incorrect. Death happens when it happens, which is why it is very often important to do things and not wait.
The terror management theory has a lot more credibility. Dr. Shermer seems to hold a lot of fear if we listen carefully to his words about his life expectancy. Alex bringing up the nihilistic musings upon waking was very relatable, on the other hand. I enjoyed hearing both sides to the argument very much though, so thank you both.
Good conversation but the doctor is entirely dismissive of the fear to begin with. I've heard all these arguments before and none of them do anything to mitigate the terror of death for me. That contrasted with the absence of any inherent value in life Beyond Survival feels like an unsolvable pervasive problem.
Do you have an excellent memory... one that does not allow you to hide your problems away? I am one such, but I am also very forgetful because of it... a real problem at times.
Actually he gave a good point about living in the present and focusing on today and this week.
@@EpicWarrior131 sure that's nice and all but easier said than done for those of us who carry the existential Terror of the annihilation of self. He basically tells the doctor that he's terrified of the one thing we can all be sure of will come to pass and the doctor basically says don't think about it. Isn't attempting to not thinking about it similar to the self-delusion that religious people practice?
@@bigmike4133 It's not self-delusion, it's a healthy self-control. As he states, dwelling on it isn't productive and I definitely agree, as I used to think about it too much. When you're keeping yourself occupied and working on bettering your health and life, death falls to the back of the mind. I wish you good luck on diminishing your fear.
I have that feeling as well. I can’t seem to get over the fact that my existence will cease someday and there is so much that humanity hasn’t done that I won’t get to see. I think we need to use the existential dread as a motivator to further our technology so that we can live longer and longer and achieve as much as possible. I just hope I have the mental prowess needed for such a goal :D There _must_ be some way we can extend our lifespans to the extent that we will live long enough to get bored of it, basically!
On the topic of the mind uploading, and it just being a copy of you... does it matter? From the perspective of the copy, there is perfect continuity. From the copy's perspective, it is you... and if the original you dies, the copy continues on none the wiser to the break in the continuity. I get the existential dread that you would feel in those last moments of your original self, but strictly speaking, "you" continue on never knowing you had died. The trick would be to time the copying to be as close to your physical death as possible so that from "your" perspective, you fall asleep in one body and wake up in the copy.
Alex, you're terrified by death?! Wow... I see fear of death as being analogous to regret, which I've always considered a useless feeling. Regret is useless because the past can't be changed. Fear of death is a mirror image of regret as it also concerns something that cannot be changed (we will all die), with the difference that it is a future event. One difference between regret and fear of death is that the passage of time naturally weakens the feeling of regret as the object of this sentiment grows more distant. The passage of time on the other hand inexorably brings our death closer, which could justify an ever increasing fear. But if we accept that fearing something that is unavoidable is a waste of time, this difference becomes irrelevant. Oh... and shame on you for not doing exercise!
would it be fair to say you're still you if you're knocked unconscious and then blinded? I don't understand how continuity has to be part of identity. honestly I don't understand identity either though
im with this guy religion is more about extending the family creating, bonds, and codifying morality. this is why you have some religions who are nto rewarding or punishing when discussing the after life.
and this creates a double edge..
still as a transhuminist its not about extending life. its about ending the pain in the left side of my body so to injuy...now aside from my personal motivation...its just about excepting that this is the natural progression of humanity
I think cosmic is somewhat biased towards the idea that a short life means more time pressure to get things done. There are countless forms of time pressure which are more immediate and much more effective; not to mention that time pressure is far from the only reason to get things done. The resources argument I can partly agree with, and we don't know what psychological effects a 300 year or more life might have on a person, and then there's the question of money and inequality.
The deadline concept has never seemed compelling to me.
Please please talk to Thomas Metzinger and David Benatar...the latter won't show his face on camera but both have explored the dark side better than anyone else
Oh no, you two have good reason to be afraid.
Y Patreon tho??
Great discussion however Shermer does come across as a bit "dickish" now and then. Alex did a good job at pressing an idea a bit further after Shermer scoffs and dismisses an idea or point of thought, frustrating and condescending slightly, his ego needs a bit of a slap.... Well done Alex. Would love to hear a talk with Neil Degrasse Tyson...on any subject haha
Yeah, Shermer was needlessly condescending, apparently feeling a little insecure about a 19-year-old being his intellectual equal.
Yes Shermer might have been trying to be a little too age appropriate with him but also Alex was himself a little too uptight and serous about adulting. Btw the discussion was very fruitful and deep.
i like shermer a lot and i'm inclined to agree with you, but i think the way he talks is dictated by the way he feels about how religion sees atheism, i think he finds it frustrating that religion "has the answer" to everything, i think he'd like to prove once and for all there is no god and move on to something more useful.
Although im late and probably my philosophical knowledge is not very good but isnt the perception of life (why we are here? What is the meaning? Why should i Continue?) All equaly valid and has also flaws. To be afraid of death or eternity is something you cant grasp. To picture it as a cliff it could also be just the end of a road or the end of a roadtrip. And to fear the end is to fear nature. And there is no need to fear something you cant change.
And to try to picture things brings you to a limit. There will be a point there you try to step back to observe something, but you cant because information is missing and then you will stand in nothingness and it will be an uncertainty to understand a bigger picture.
Alex ur the bomb but the transition of the text on the title card looks like an iMovie preset and not in a good way
I’m only depressed by death when I feel I’m not living up life!
As long as there's an organism born after you've ceased to exist, there will be an experience after yours, via that new organism. ---- You will not be there to stop it.
This man is the essence of /r/wowthanksimcured
32:30 Should Dr. Salk not have developed the polio vaccine because having people live longer means more resource use?
58:47 "... but someone who, you know, *no one cares what they think* .... I mean, I'll ask you!"
Fuckin' savage m8
58:47 That's kinda rude man, especially given that Alex has a large enough following.
Alex took it well, though, so good on him.
Till we get mind uploading, is someone really gone if he had an impact on the world, no matter how small and is remembered fondly? Is elvis truely dead, i we remember and listen his music? Even if you die hopefully peacerfully in old age, you leave a footprint that only you made. A trace you left. And the media and all that, especially in the
digital age. Thats what stays even if someone is gone. You cant purge that, some rulers tried to erase people, but they still got recovered by archiology. So everyone leaves traces memories and work.
So make it count, like you are already doing. And we might can make virtual copies of us, but we leave unavoidable traces good or bad in the world. And people will remember us, especially if you are kept in good memories. There is nothing to fear. That makes life that fun and endearing and hard and sad rollercoaster ride it is. Nothing is 100 % safe and thats awesome.
But the working out thing is true.
I found Dr Shermer overly sanctimonious. He spoke down to Alex almost the entire time, which is a shame.
He barely knew Alex and he's done this kinds of things a million times already, so I guess that's why he was on the defensive. Towards the end though he realized he was well read on his books and concepts and warmed up a bit.
I didn't pick up on that. He was just stating his thesis on religion theory.
I agree with @Deemantos. I didn't pick up on what you're describing. I think that Michael Shermer's voice just sounds sanctimonious naturally, but he sounds like that all the time. I did find some of Alex's arguments contrived. Perhaps he was nervous and wasn't expressing himself well. Shermer seemed like he was having fun. Alex was too serious for my taste at times. Still, Alex is so incredibly eloquent for his age or any age, for that matter.
80 years out? Well to some of us these years aren't exactly numerous. Filling even 80 years at 100% health is easy, trivial even. Got some fascination with math research? You're gonna be able to keep working on that alone for centuries, possibly millennia.
I'll be struggling to get a tiny fraction of what I'm motivated to do done in a century. And while I have no active fear of death it's just a prospect of... missing out. Immensely. 80 years really isn't much time at all.
Same. The terrifying part about death isn't dying, its the idea of missing out on anything and everything that will ever happen after your brief time is over. Its not fair. But it also makes me appreciate how incredible it is to be alive. However, I don't buy the argument that death Is a positive thing just because it makes us appreciate life more. We could just contrast life with inanimate objects, rather than death, in order to achieve an appreciation for being alive and conscious.
@@EpicWarrior131 I could never understand this "less lifetime - more appreciation" argument either. If anything less lifetime just means you have to rush things more. After all really studying yourself into some topics can take 20 or even 30 years. By the time you're done and ready to really get started, more than half of your usable lifetime has already passed.
@@XorUnison Exactly man. Its a bitter pill to swallow. Best thing I can do is eat healthy, stay active, and hope some significant life extending technology comes out in the near future.
@@EpicWarrior131 Tbh I think Michael Shermer is... pretty wrong about a few points. Aubrey De Grey, which he also mentioned is indeed one of the most prominent names in regards to age research. What Shermer isn't saying though is that De Grey claims there's a high probability for younger generations of today (around 20 or 30) to substantially benefit from the research on the 7 issues with aging. And I think so too. The fail that Shermer seems to commit here is to to think that because we don't have powerful anti-aging solutions now, and won't have them in 5 years or something, no one of the current generation can benefit. Which of course makes no sense if you think about this even for a few seconds. If I live another 40-50 relatively healthy years, and age research makes the expected jumps in that time frame, of course I can benefit from them at the time. Not just that, we also know that aging can be reversed. There's no mystical barrier here. And if your live can be extended a few decades... you'll also be around for the next decades of scientific progress.
Because of that I think it's very reasonable to assume that millennials are pretty much the generation on the cusp of immortality, it can be done and available in my lifetime, but it's most certainly not a guarantee. That's also why I'm getting politically active for transhumanism, to try and speed up the research a little. And to create the social acceptance for these advancements.
Last but not least because these techs will come, and we can either create public support and get them faster and safer, or let it drag on and get them later, and then also much more likely in the hands of only the rich and powerful, which could be a whole new disaster.
@@XorUnison Yeah I loved Shermer's points about "just get up and go, today, this week , you're here now and you're healthy"
But I also agree with everything you've said, and enjoyed reading that. I think your ambitions and confidences are well-placed.
You could tell Sam Harris a thing or two when it comes to Logos, design, music choice, etc.
It looks slick. And science minded.
I really don't get what Shermer is going on about with "continuation" of consciousness vs "just memory".
How can you possibly tell? The only thing that makes me believe I'm the same person as yesterday is that I remember being me yesterday. If my consciousness were implanted in a sufficiently capable machine to "run" the software of my brain, it'd remember being me in exactly the same way. It simply _would be_ me by any measure you care to use.
Sure, I can't say that I know it would be the "same" me. Maybe I'd be "dead" and it'd be a copy. But I also can't say that isn't necessarily the case about falling asleep and waking up. Maybe this "me" dies tonight and a new one wakes up in the morning thinking it's me since it remembers being me. In fact, maybe the "me" that wrote that sentence no longer exists, and this new me that's writing this sentence only thinks it's the same consciousness because it remembers the last one.
Essentially this whole line of argument only shows how ridiculous the concept of a "continuation" of consciousness is. Consciousness isn't a continuous stream - it's an illusion within a state of being. As long as there is something that thinks like me and remembers being me, then it IS me.