LET'S TALK TECH-TUNING WATER METH INJECTION
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ย. 2021
- DID SOME TESTING TODAY WITH SNOW PERFORMANCE WATER METH INJECTION-LOWERED TEMPS, BUT LOTS OF TUNING REQUIRED TO GET IT RIGHT! HOW DOESSNOW BOOST JUICE COMPARE TO WINDSHIELD WASHER FLUID? (TESTED BOTH 32 AND -20)
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Love how you rub your hands together like a mad scientist while talking about specs and horsepower
Gains would be more apparent in an actual car - higher under hood air temps, heat soaked engine/blower/intercooler and especially using 10% ethanol gas. Love the channel!
I'm glad GM made the Buick Olds Pontiac 215 V8 into the GM3800 V6. 75 runs and none below 200 hp. Boosted and cooled, just like the F85 Jet Fire. Proof of the 1962 Turbo concept. Great test work RH. Make sure you say thanks to SB and Mr Stoner. Best Friday Night entertainment Eva!
Have a snow stage 1 on the shelf waiting to go on my roooost sbc after xmas.
Good video.
Vp M1 with water ranging from 50% to 25% works best. Pre mixed solutions are a waste of time. Secret to getting it right is having enough meth/ or water+meth between 12.5% to 25% of the fuel flow at any given engine load & rpm.... well that's what all the literature and the "experts" say on water/meth groups on Facebook anyway
Super solid Video. While a lot of us use water meth, i feel most of us are using it for octane rather than cooling. Seems a lot of people already have an intercooler and are adding water meth, as I am. Since I have limited access to E85, water meth is used solely for octane purposes
In regards to not getting moisture on the sensor, you need to mount your nozzle further back so the water/meth mixture has more time to evaporate, thus cooling the air more efficiently.
I’ve had my nozzle mounted before the throttle body and now after my intercooler. I get waaaay better IAT drops mounted further back.
Good stuff, man!! Subbed! Running Boost Juice on 91 octane with a 8gph nozzle after my intercooler for IAT cooling. I’ve seen up to 40 degree drops over intercooler temps drops and my tune adds additional spark, when the fueling is good. 👌🏼
40 degrees at 10:1 compression means a 400 degree lower compressed mixture temperature at TDC.
E85 is probably giving you the maximum chemical detonation suppression and adding more alcohol is just richening the mixture and the water at that point is likely suppressing the flame.
Worked with a guy that co-owned a sail boat with his father. He met a lady and they sailed to Australia to go walk about. His nick name was Croc as he paid at a wildlife park to wrestle a croc. Quite the character.
He got a twitch in his eye the conventional doctors could not treat. So he went to a traditional chinese doctor who gave him acupuncture and a prescription. The prescription was two brown bags with some kind of roots. The third bag had the blown out exoskeletons of some nasty looking bug that he was supposed to make tea with. These things had nasty looking claws like a crab. One day he made his tea and flipped the skeleton out into the birdbath hand wash. One of the truck salesmen came by and saw it and grabbed it. He hung it by the claws on the side of another salesman's coffee cup on the side he would put his lips on. Well, you know how salesmen are. Yap yap and holding their coffee. Well he lifted it to take a sip and saw the bug which startled crap out of him. Spilled coffee down the front of his white shirt and dropped the cup which shattered on the floor.
This is probably the most exciting part of this 3800 testing that I'm looking forward to. Exactly how well do these M90s so cranked up with wm spraying. I've been considering this option on a project, but would help to see if it's even worth it. I can only run 92 octane fuel at best. No E85 around here in Oregon. I'm mostly curious if it's even a good idea to just run a small nozzle of injection at a low rate for cooling affect? In my case I'm using the higher compression 3800 bottom end, so KR starts much sooner than with the lower compression L67/32 bottom ends. Not sure how much testing you plan to do.
We have winter washer fluid good for -45°C and that can even freeze on the windscreen driving on the highway at -35°C.
I did not realize that you were answering comments online, plus I gave some cam info in this revised comment:
I have a .030 over 350 circa 1970 LT1 Corvette engine with .020 piston to head clearance at TDC and 12.5:1 compression ratio in a 1971 Vega (2800 pounds vehicle weight), a 700R4 trans with 2200 rpm stall and 3.08 posi rear. Ignition is 0 mechanical, 18 initial and 10 vacuum advance on 91 octane gas (California), Sig Erson Hi-Flow 1 hydraulic cam (224 at .050), FiTech fuel injection on a Performer RPM manifold and Herbert & Meek headers, after market aluminum heads with double quench areas. My questions are: What water injection system would you recommend, what is the droplet size, what air fuel ratio would you recommend, and what mileage increase can I expect (right now it is 8mpg). This is a daily driver. Barry
snow makes good stuff, but this reads that you only have 18 degrees of total timing (vacuum only adds timing at cruise) and .020 piston to head is VERY tight
I would really like to see this kit being used to boost low octane pump gas. Would it be cost effective for a daily driver, or wouls the extra expense of the water meth be more expensive in the end?
Make sure you check out the central coast reptile park heaps of native snakes it's just north of Sydney
When are you finally going to do a direct port WM test, SNOW has multi injector direct port kits. Be stoked to see if it actually works as you would never inject fuel like we do WMI currently so these tests are not correct.
You need to inject after the blower, makes a huge difference in temps
Can't wait to see test results in upcoming videos. I run wmi on my mp62 blown track car. It runs on 98 RON fuel as E85 uncommon at the pump, and it's a road/track car and I can't be bothered always trying to find E85. I found that WMI really helps with charge temperature reduction, but it only gives slight power gains at same boost levels. It does however allow consistent power, lap after lap in hot weather without the need to pull timing to prevent detonating. I did some detailed temperature logging on track on a hot day when setting it up and compared no injection with two injection rates. Results on my channel if you are interested. Oh, and I've had car on track in over 40 deg C and it didn't miss a beat, but was of course down a bit on power, as was I!
Injecting pre-blower makes a lot of sense, as it prevents excessive heat soak in the large rotating and stationary surface areas of a blower. So that's what I do, even though I have a fairly ineffective A2A intercooler after the blower.
I have a supercharged track day car too, but I plan on injecting post-intercooler. Keeping the blower cooler isn't a bad idea, but cooling the air before the intercooler is counterproductive (in theory). You're reducing the amount of heat the intercooler can remove since you've dropped the temperature differential, and on a hot day the intercooler may actually be raising the air temps back up (since the intercooler core may actually be warmer than the WMI chilled air). Been researching this topic a lot and it seems the closer you can inject to the combustion chamber, the better. You may not see reduced intake temps, but the combustion temps (the thing that really matters) is reduced the greatest amount and overall engine running temps are reduced and maximum detonation resistance is obtained.
@@braaap6292 try injecting before charger, after, and with flow split between a nozzle before and after. Log temperature before and after charger plus exhaust gas temps. Report back! Keen to see the results.
I'm thinking I'd like to do before charger first since that's easiest, then after, then combined and compare everything. Would be a good experiment.
Me and my tuner are in a debate. And I think your experience can mabe help prove or dismissed my vision.
My car is an Audi S3 2013 2.0Turbo. The car is pretty much stock engine wise. I run it on track and it gets pretty hot oil temp wise on warm days. Causing me to have to do cool down laps. Installing an external oil-cooler sounds like an easy fix but there's no great kits available.
So I want to install wmi and get a tune but on stock boost. So gains will be minimum and cooling maximal. Hoping this will keep not only intake,combustion and exhaust gas temperatures down but also my oil temp.
My tuner says getting wmi alone isn't a good idea. I should get a bigger intercooler and a downpipe first and then put the wmi on.
One this will cost more and 2 ad even more horsepower, which I dont want or need. As I am just looking for cooling and extended track time.
What's your thoughts? Can wmi keep oil temps down. Do I need the intercooler and downpipe? Or do I just find a good/make a good oil cooler? Thank you for your time reading and hopefully replying
It seems most testing I've seen on water/meth starts with e85 . Most results are like yours . Already able to tune for max power on the E so there is little room to cover the extra fuel from meth injection . Cooler temps w no appreciable power gains. Safety, but compromised or similar power.
I'm tuning for water meth right now on my turboed ls3 on 93 pump gas.
My temps are good but I'm sure I'm flooding the engine . Today I raised my afr .3 and added 2 -3 degrees of timing . Too wet out for a quick drive to Mexico today so we will see how she likes it later.
I'm leaning on a couple safeties I built into the project . I use a J&S interceptor knock retard setup and my boost controller run a oxygen sensor and drops boost back to spring pressure if it goes lean. I will tune til the safeties kick in , then back off a couple numbers . I'm hoping to make decent power at 15lbs or so at 9.9 compression, softened chambers on the LPE 317s, sbe ls3 on 93 w the snow progressive kit.
Edit.....also running a 31×12×4 air to air intercooler.
I have a .030 over 350 circa 1970 LT1 Corvette engine with .020 piston to head clearance at TDC and 12.5:1 compression ratio in a 1971 Vega (2800 pounds vehicle weight), a 700R4 trans with 2200 rpm stall and 3.08 posi rear. Ignition is 0 mechanical, 18 initial and 10 vacuum advance on 92 octane gas (California), FiTech fuel injection on a Performer RPM manifold and Herbert & Meek headers, after market aluminum heads with double quench areas. My questions are: What water injection system would you recommend, what is the droplet size, what air fuel ratio would you recommend, and what mileage increase can I expect (right now it is 8mpg). This is a daily driver. Thank you.
Please try running it on 91 or whatever is equivalent to our 98 octane here in Australia. Direct port kits are no doubt the king for W/M injection (50/50 still) but most people have to relise that turbo engines still run intercoolers with these set ups. If you're going all out then 100% methanol direct port injection is the go but push fittings aren't recommended because of potential leaks and fire...
Go to any major hardware store or plumbing supplier, get compression fittings, no more leaks
LOVE THE MOPAR STUFF. GREAT CHANNEL. HAVE A QUESTION. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE USING ROTELLA T6 DIESEL FULL SYN IN THEIR MUSCLE CARS ETC. IT IS GREAT STUFF I USE IT IN MY TRACTOR. BUT IS IT GOOD FOR YOUR CARS GAS ENGINE??? THANKS!
I have not tried it
Finalllllly
If detonation kills hp, and lowering air charge temps allows for increased timing, doesn't the fact that running e85 and adding water /meth with no advantage in hp indicate that the e85 has cooled the charge to the max level the engine can use to gain timing/HP? If so ,do we really need i/c's on e85 engines? Do you have any videos testing hp with and without intercoolers on an e85 motor? I appreciate all the knowledge you share on this channel. Thanks
Air charge temps aren't the only thing that causes\contributes to detonation, cylinder pressure and octane are major factors. More timing only helps build power to a certain point, pass optimal and advancing further doesn't help even if detonation isn't occuring. e85 has higher octane which allows for more cylinder pressure before detonation occurs, it's benefits aren't solely lowered charge temp and in fact I'd argue that's not even it's primary advantage.
@@BLKMGK4 kind of not my point but I get yours
Can we talk about the actual temperature reduction with water/meth injection vs. what people are thinking they are getting based on their IAT sensor? I feel the IAT sensor reading will always be inaccurate due to the sensor getting wet from the W/M being sprayed on it. Not to mention how slow the typical GM IAT sensor is. Using the adiabatic properties of a 50/50 W/M solution, you can calculate that spraying 20gph on a 5.3 at 20psi will only give you a 50° reduction in IAT, yet you see people claiming drops of over 100°.
so actual test is bad, keyboard math is good! Then how do we actually test?
@@richardholdener1727 I would like to see a test where the temperature can be measured after the W/M mixture has completely evaporated. The keyboard math is based on the physical properties of the W/M mixture and the volume of air going through the engine. You can't make 4x the HP on 15 pounds of boost, same concept. I have a Hyperactive fast-response IAT sensor I would gladly supply if we could come up with proper test.
The 3800 series 2/3 supercharged motors, the injector bosses are in the cylinder with the NA having the bosses in the intake. Which is better for power?
same
Rich, have you done any testing using straight water? I ask because I have a track car which the rules state I can only run water injection. No meth. Wondering what benefits I can squeeze if any. Most of what I read is split 50/50 between you'll loose or gain 20hp.
The only way to add power with water injection is to be able to add the necessary timing that the motor wanted but was limited due to detonation. If you cure that, then can add timing, you could gain power. Water injection alone doesn't add power in any test I have seen or run.
@@richardholdener1727 Makes sense! This weekend I was out on track and had IAT of around 140 degrees even with a big FMIC. I wondered if in that situation I could have brought that temp down to ambient (~95 degrees) with water injection however I guess the trade off would be less air so presumably less power. But if that high IAT temp started to cause knock, then the water would be warranted as it would allow me to keep my ignition table static even with elevated temps it sounds like. Thank you for the reply, love your content!
Good evening mr Richard question I have 2004 monte carlo ss supercharged fullstack intercooler, 3.0 pulley, 42# injectors, 105 valve springs, built transmission cane handle around 350 or so hp to the wheels has gm racing differential, performance race 245mm 2500 stall converter, vs cam,ported and polished heads,headers and down pipe my car made little over 300 whp and around 330 or so of torque does that sound right to you or should I be making more power I watch your videos and you make alot of power on 3800 if I wanted to add a little more power should I use a meth kit or nitrous kit I use 93 gas thanks for your help and what brand kit should I buy
if you can tune it, e85 and smaller pulley
@@richardholdener1727 my car is dyno tuned already and no e85
Very interested in results from a diesel as diesel is more oxygenated and lots of guys put more fuel into the engine , Im just wondering on a test basis if one would need to pull much fuel out
the methanol add power on a diesel because it is throttled with fuel
@@richardholdener1727 I just learned something …Lol do you think any adjustments could or should be made to a diesel setup as far as mapping of fuel tables
Richard, have you done some testing with pump gas/forced induction and water/methanol injection?
THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE
@@richardholdener1727 if you find time or desire to do it please consider trying straight methanol in addition to the water/meth mix
Since the engine is half L32 and half L67, does that make it an L49.5? 😛
bingo
The Felpro 1011 is a PermaTorque MLS, no?
it is not
The meth nozzle should be mounted in the side of the intake pipe. The bracket in front of the throttle body will hurt air flow.
we tested it-it showed no change in power
@@richardholdener1727 guess I was wrong haha
What size nozzle did you end up with??
6
@@richardholdener1727 That's what I ended up on my setup. I have a 2017 Camaro SS LT1 puting down 600whp. I had to go to a larger pully cus it was just about undrivable. I would break the tires loose at 70mph. I feel like the meth does add some HP or Torque. It put down 650lbs/ft or torque.
Personally I blame squirrels
I ran over the squirrel today John. Didnt see yea in the live feed!
I barbecued squirrel last night for dinner, ahhh the sweet taste of justified.