In this video, we'll solve a tricky subd situation using primitives, booleans, and basic retopology. ►► Learn Hard Surface Modeling in Blender in Under 2 Weeks - www.blenderbros.com/accelerator
The problem with something so basic and beginner-friendly, not mastering or understanding what topology is, comes from the fact that many current artists have learned by copying work or copying models from tutorials that only cover the practical part, so to speak, they don't touch on the basic theory of why a model has to be done that way. It happens a lot in my niche, Archviz, many artists have good renders because they copy the settings they see in tutorials but they don't know why those settings work.
I worked as an auto mechanic for 10+ yrs before moving into the 3D world and this is what I would tell the fng’s coming in. Understanding concepts is key to whatever skill you’re trying to learn.
100% agree, I was working in Archviz and was able to deliver good vizualisation. It was just very time consuming to do all alone (especially with the requests of VR and animation becoming more and more popular) so I switched and work now for Archviz companies, doing only 3D models for their scenes on demand. The first thing I needed to learn was to do clean topology. My models worked, but not very good, because the topology was fucked up. After around 1 year I'm now pretty efficient in doing clean topology on the go. I usually view models in a completely different way. Topology is so very important and super difficult to get the hang of it in the beginning. But it will make your life (and of others working with it) so so so much easier :))
In short , Topology depends on purpose , clean quad based topology is required if you're working in a big budget vfx production or a movie because the model will go to other specialists who might deform it , texture it and destroy it or break it , whatever , in that case , clean evenly spaced topo is a must. If what you're making is gonna be used in a game , it doesn't have to be clean but it is good if the topology is evenly spaced out , again it all depends on the purpose and how close or far the model is gonna be . That being said every hard surface artist , regardless of their goals should know the basics of modeling and that also includes an astute understanding of subdivision surface modeling , topology flow , types of edge poles and how to shift them and fix them , how to fix n gon and triangles on curved surfaces , edge redirection , control loops and holding edges , mesh density , mesh analysis and debugging/ fixing issues in a mesh , retopology etc etc . Using booleans to prototype ideas is a part of hard surface modeling but it isn't all there is , infact it's not even 5% of the overall skill set .N gons and triangles are not bad to use , but they can be if used at a wrong place
Came here from your e-mail, and I have to say I get where you are heading at. Very good rundown regarding topology and shading, and extremely important for beginners. The emphasis should always be on "where will this model end up?" and not "you need to use quads".
For sure, the information in this video is really important. I've been learning Blender for a year or two, and since discovering Blender Bros, my workflow has skyrocketed to another level! Thanks, Josh, for sharing your experience and knowledge once again!
The term for flat surface (can't be bent), is coplanar. He is right that you can not make a non-coplanar triangle but anything with greater than 3 sides can be bent and thus has to be triangulated. Rendering engines do this to your polygon data before it actually creates the rendered image. Also, the reason that Blender and other 3D apps have issues is because non-coplanar surfaces are mathematically undefined. If there is no mathematical solution then a computer won't be able to compute it. We work in quads as it is easier to edit a mesh that way. Try working with a complex mesh with triangles, as in start with a triangulated mesh and work from there. First of all, every time you want to extrude a quad, you have to select 2 faces, not just 1. The problems get bigger as you work further on. It isn't that you can't edit with tris and have some success, but that quads are easier to work with. The debate about ngons, in my experience, comes from teachers who were character modelers. In character modeling you avoid tris and ngons all you can in anything that deforms. They can both cause issues during deformations. Yet in hard-surface modeling, tris and ngons rarely cause issues while allowing for lower poly counts and thus faster rendering. What I learned is if an edge loop through a model cuts through several polygons (so x polys become 2x), only let the edge loop go as far as you need to, then merge vertices and delete the rest of the edge loop. JL Mussi and of course the Blender Bros are good sources for this. In the end, if you can't find any oddities in any frame of your renders, then there is no issue. Blender's weighted normals modifier helps a lot with making sure there are no odd shading issues across polys.
Yes, it totally depends on the thing you are going to do with the model, if it is going to be deformed in any way, i.e. character then I try to use quad as much as possible(using tri where I know won't have any negative effects of the model), whereas in things like static meshes or hard surface in my personal projects, I mainly care about whether or not the n-gons or tris are causing any weird shading issue, but I will say this, having proper edge flow will help a lot in when laying out proper uv's. So I use proper topology on projects where I won't be working on the model from start to finish.
Josh my question its Where should I start, because my level may be somewhat acceptable in modeling, but if I make a mistake at the starting point, it will lead to a problem
I don't want to be that guy.. but someone needs to highlight that even though you guys have made some great content like design tips, modifier usages for hard surface modeling and other great tips here and there. You guys have also provided misleading / misguided information about things like topology, Sub-D modeling processes and game development workflows or techniques such as baking, texturing and polycount. So would be great to see you guys revisit some of that content and properly address it based on a deeper level of understanding. This video does bring some good facts that not many people talk much about, there fore confusing people who are starting out. One thing to add is that it can also be beneficial to have the entire workflow of curvy objects be just on sub div alone. this way you can have certain luxuries such as using deformers on your object like twist or lattice to enhance or transform areas of your mesh without breaking it. it also makes for nicer transitions between surfaces blending from sharp to smooth.
Have you wathched any of PZthee's video? His videos teach so much better then these guys with their tough guy, pissed off attitudes. He even makes videos to help out individuals who have questions.
thanks for this information, I was never told booleans were bad but always got annoyed that i had to clean them afterwards for a low poly workflow, so i stopped using them altogether
damn... ngl I didn't know the shading thing until now and that tip about having your verts be flat was extremely helpful with understanding when to use booleans more.
Learn the rules, then break them. If you want a job in modelling / want to go professional in 3D, you should absolutely learn proper topology and understand how to build it. Even if you don’t *need* quads, it’s still best to practice them. I learned a lot with BlenderBros but when I got to the real world, learned a lot more. Like how bad my topo was. It lost me work.
Well, the most important part of the video is, where you say the use of booleans and ngons depend on your goals... And what I'd love to see here is really emphasising when, say, clean topology isn't required (like concept arts, some product viz), and when it is, and more examples of that (animations, films, games for the most part - as here mesh density is a factor etc). You say, and show it on screen "why clean topology isn't required", but knowing how to model using clean topology, and knowledge when to use it is vital IMHO. Let's not encourage young padawans not to learn it :)
very well said. But I was mind f´ed up by the black triangle that I assume is a piece of your shirt popping up in the spekaer to the left of you. hahahaha.
Attn All Artists & Designers: lean into the pro dev work offered by the Blender Bros (Josh, Ryuu). you will learn the why, what, and how for mastering 3D workflow in Blender and Plasticity. no substitute. WTG Josh!
I've been working on and off on a 3D model of the Titanic for a few years now and, while cutting the portholes into the plates, I was under the impression that I needed to use quads so the topology on all the plates looks kinda like the Rising Sun flag. Did I not need to do all that after all?
The problem with your method is versatility. For example, I've never seen here a model like the PS5 joypad (so an object that must not deform but essentially a hybrid between organic parts and hard surface). If I scroll through the list of objects you have created, they are all minimal variations of primitives. Cubes, cylinders or spheres with some boolean. If you see the Pzthree or Arijan channel, the variety of objects and shapes is 10 times greater (even remaining in the HS). Even the level of complexity of hard surface objects is 10 times greater. A car has complex mechanical parts, why are those types of objects not present on the channel? Maybe because with your method it is impossible to create them? I would like to see how you create a car or any real object that is not simply a primitive with some arbitrary and "convenient" variation to model. And I mean a real car, not a blackout with 4 wheels around it.
While you make a few good points, the explanation you gave about the shading artifacts on the boolean cylinder is not correct. Because not a single ngon on that mesh is bent, they're all flat, think about it, why would a boolean cutting a quad bend it ? It's impossible.. The reason why those ngons got messed up is because they're concave ngons, the triangulation of concave ngons always goes terribly wrong.
It is possible to bend a triangle. Any 3 points always define a plane, yeah, but i triangle can be bent easily just like the quad which is always 2 triangles
@@stevenlitvintchouk3131 a triangle can be be bent if you bump up the vertices along the edge. you can effectively turn a triangle into a quad while retaining the shape of a triangle simply by subdividing one of the edges. this isnt the point though. in terms of 3d programs: 2 vertices joined together make an edge. the simplest face you can make is a triangle composed of 3 joined vertices, this is the simplest loop. if you move any of those vertices they will ALWAYS be coplanar. it cannot be bent. this is probably why every model is triangulated as a triangle is a flat surface and cannot be bent hence : clean shading.
Hi Josh ! FRIKIN USEFULL these video!!!! THANKS a lot bud!!! So, one little consideration: if I'm a 3D resin printer modeler I assume that "ngons/quads" I dont give a f**k ! I consider them only If I'm, for example, a 3D video editing/render and so on. Correct ?
For 3D printing you should be using CAD. Fusion 360 or plasticity. Save yourself the trouble. Polygons have advantages but none for 3D printing. It has a lot of disadvantages though in the modeling process.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
In this video, we'll solve a tricky subd situation using primitives, booleans, and basic retopology.
►► Learn Hard Surface Modeling in Blender in Under 2 Weeks - www.blenderbros.com/accelerator
The problem with something so basic and beginner-friendly, not mastering or understanding what topology is, comes from the fact that many current artists have learned by copying work or copying models from tutorials that only cover the practical part, so to speak, they don't touch on the basic theory of why a model has to be done that way. It happens a lot in my niche, Archviz, many artists have good renders because they copy the settings they see in tutorials but they don't know why those settings work.
I worked as an auto mechanic for 10+ yrs before moving into the 3D world and this is what I would tell the fng’s coming in. Understanding concepts is key to whatever skill you’re trying to learn.
100% agree, I was working in Archviz and was able to deliver good vizualisation. It was just very time consuming to do all alone (especially with the requests of VR and animation becoming more and more popular) so I switched and work now for Archviz companies, doing only 3D models for their scenes on demand.
The first thing I needed to learn was to do clean topology. My models worked, but not very good, because the topology was fucked up. After around 1 year I'm now pretty efficient in doing clean topology on the go. I usually view models in a completely different way.
Topology is so very important and super difficult to get the hang of it in the beginning. But it will make your life (and of others working with it) so so so much easier :))
Well Ig you need to understand how it works while you copying 🤷♂️
In short , Topology depends on purpose , clean quad based topology is required if you're working in a big budget vfx production or a movie because the model will go to other specialists who might deform it , texture it and destroy it or break it , whatever , in that case , clean evenly spaced topo is a must. If what you're making is gonna be used in a game , it doesn't have to be clean but it is good if the topology is evenly spaced out , again it all depends on the purpose and how close or far the model is gonna be . That being said every hard surface artist , regardless of their goals should know the basics of modeling and that also includes an astute understanding of subdivision surface modeling , topology flow , types of edge poles and how to shift them and fix them , how to fix n gon and triangles on curved surfaces , edge redirection , control loops and holding edges , mesh density , mesh analysis and debugging/ fixing issues in a mesh , retopology etc etc . Using booleans to prototype ideas is a part of hard surface modeling but it isn't all there is , infact it's not even 5% of the overall skill set .N gons and triangles are not bad to use , but they can be if used at a wrong place
Came here from your e-mail, and I have to say I get where you are heading at. Very good rundown regarding topology and shading, and extremely important for beginners. The emphasis should always be on "where will this model end up?" and not "you need to use quads".
For sure, the information in this video is really important.
I've been learning Blender for a year or two, and since discovering Blender Bros, my workflow has skyrocketed to another level!
Thanks, Josh, for sharing your experience and knowledge once again!
The term for flat surface (can't be bent), is coplanar. He is right that you can not make a non-coplanar triangle but anything with greater than 3 sides can be bent and thus has to be triangulated. Rendering engines do this to your polygon data before it actually creates the rendered image. Also, the reason that Blender and other 3D apps have issues is because non-coplanar surfaces are mathematically undefined. If there is no mathematical solution then a computer won't be able to compute it.
We work in quads as it is easier to edit a mesh that way. Try working with a complex mesh with triangles, as in start with a triangulated mesh and work from there. First of all, every time you want to extrude a quad, you have to select 2 faces, not just 1. The problems get bigger as you work further on. It isn't that you can't edit with tris and have some success, but that quads are easier to work with.
The debate about ngons, in my experience, comes from teachers who were character modelers. In character modeling you avoid tris and ngons all you can in anything that deforms. They can both cause issues during deformations. Yet in hard-surface modeling, tris and ngons rarely cause issues while allowing for lower poly counts and thus faster rendering. What I learned is if an edge loop through a model cuts through several polygons (so x polys become 2x), only let the edge loop go as far as you need to, then merge vertices and delete the rest of the edge loop. JL Mussi and of course the Blender Bros are good sources for this. In the end, if you can't find any oddities in any frame of your renders, then there is no issue. Blender's weighted normals modifier helps a lot with making sure there are no odd shading issues across polys.
Yes, it totally depends on the thing you are going to do with the model, if it is going to be deformed in any way, i.e. character then I try to use quad as much as possible(using tri where I know won't have any negative effects of the model), whereas in things like static meshes or hard surface in my personal projects, I mainly care about whether or not the n-gons or tris are causing any weird shading issue, but I will say this, having proper edge flow will help a lot in when laying out proper uv's. So I use proper topology on projects where I won't be working on the model from start to finish.
Always good to hear from people working in the industry
I dont really know if he works in the "industry". He makes blender videos.
Thank you! I also benefitted from your course and was amazed how booleans stopped being a problem and became very crucial to my modelling workflow
Excellent information and proper reinforcement! Cheers as always!!!
Josh my question its Where should I start, because my level may be somewhat acceptable in modeling, but if I make a mistake at the starting point, it will lead to a problem
OMG, thanks i was thinking about how topology and shading works, i asked people online. I was still confused but finally i got answers.
I don't want to be that guy.. but someone needs to highlight that even though you guys have made some great content like design tips,
modifier usages for hard surface modeling and other great tips here and there.
You guys have also provided misleading / misguided information about things like topology, Sub-D modeling processes and game development workflows or techniques such as baking, texturing and polycount. So would be great to see you guys revisit some of that content and properly address it based on a deeper level of understanding.
This video does bring some good facts that not many people talk much about, there fore confusing people who are starting out.
One thing to add is that it can also be beneficial to have the entire workflow of curvy objects be just on sub div alone. this way you can have certain luxuries such as using deformers on your object like twist or lattice to enhance or transform areas of your mesh without breaking it. it also makes for nicer transitions between surfaces blending from sharp to smooth.
Have you wathched any of PZthee's video? His videos teach so much better then these guys with their tough guy, pissed off attitudes. He even makes videos to help out individuals who have questions.
@@ianzander5057 yeah he does some great content
Sounds like the 2 basic rules of thumb is 'Do not bend polygons & Know your destination.'
thanks for this information, I was never told booleans were bad but always got annoyed that i had to clean them afterwards for a low poly workflow, so i stopped using them altogether
damn... ngl I didn't know the shading thing until now and that tip about having your verts be flat was extremely helpful with understanding when to use booleans more.
Thank you much for unique and good information, it helps a lot !
Great explanation!
Learn the rules, then break them. If you want a job in modelling / want to go professional in 3D, you should absolutely learn proper topology and understand how to build it. Even if you don’t *need* quads, it’s still best to practice them.
I learned a lot with BlenderBros but when I got to the real world, learned a lot more. Like how bad my topo was. It lost me work.
Thank you, Josh! :)
True words, thanks Josh
very cool thank josh
This is *_CRAZY GOOD_* info!!
Interesting video, thanks
Good job ❤
Well, the most important part of the video is, where you say the use of booleans and ngons depend on your goals... And what I'd love to see here is really emphasising when, say, clean topology isn't required (like concept arts, some product viz), and when it is, and more examples of that (animations, films, games for the most part - as here mesh density is a factor etc). You say, and show it on screen "why clean topology isn't required", but knowing how to model using clean topology, and knowledge when to use it is vital IMHO. Let's not encourage young padawans not to learn it :)
very well said. But I was mind f´ed up by the black triangle that I assume is a piece of your shirt popping up in the spekaer to the left of you. hahahaha.
thanks for the vid simple but informative
Attn All Artists & Designers: lean into the pro dev work offered by the Blender Bros (Josh, Ryuu). you will learn the why, what, and how for mastering 3D workflow in Blender and Plasticity. no substitute. WTG Josh!
I've been working on and off on a 3D model of the Titanic for a few years now and, while cutting the portholes into the plates, I was under the impression that I needed to use quads so the topology on all the plates looks kinda like the Rising Sun flag. Did I not need to do all that after all?
God of topology
👏👏👏👏
Has your editor ever heard the phrase, "Less is more" ?
good info
Thanks for 10k subscribe 🥰
The problem with your method is versatility. For example, I've never seen here a model like the PS5 joypad (so an object that must not deform but essentially a hybrid between organic parts and hard surface). If I scroll through the list of objects you have created, they are all minimal variations of primitives. Cubes, cylinders or spheres with some boolean. If you see the Pzthree or Arijan channel, the variety of objects and shapes is 10 times greater (even remaining in the HS). Even the level of complexity of hard surface objects is 10 times greater. A car has complex mechanical parts, why are those types of objects not present on the channel? Maybe because with your method it is impossible to create them? I would like to see how you create a car or any real object that is not simply a primitive with some arbitrary and "convenient" variation to model. And I mean a real car, not a blackout with 4 wheels around it.
If it looks good in the render view and takes less time to render, I don't care about topology 😊
Huzza!!!
While you make a few good points, the explanation you gave about the shading artifacts on the boolean cylinder is not correct.
Because not a single ngon on that mesh is bent, they're all flat, think about it, why would a boolean cutting a quad bend it ? It's impossible..
The reason why those ngons got messed up is because they're concave ngons, the triangulation of concave ngons always goes terribly wrong.
most of the times ngons and booleans are bad :/
It is possible to bend a triangle. Any 3 points always define a plane, yeah, but i triangle can be bent easily just like the quad which is always 2 triangles
How do you "bend" a triangle easily if the 3 points on a triangle are always coplanar no matter how you move the points?
@@nginroom8108 By bending the triangle in the middle (say at a median or angle bisector), you've effectively turned it into two quads joined together.
you are confounding a planarity condition with the rest. A non planar polygon shows it can be bent
@@stevenlitvintchouk3131 a triangle can be be bent if you bump up the vertices along the edge. you can effectively turn a triangle into a quad while retaining the shape of a triangle simply by subdividing one of the edges. this isnt the point though. in terms of 3d programs: 2 vertices joined together make an edge. the simplest face you can make is a triangle composed of 3 joined vertices, this is the simplest loop. if you move any of those vertices they will ALWAYS be coplanar. it cannot be bent. this is probably why every model is triangulated as a triangle is a flat surface and cannot be bent hence : clean shading.
If you apply for a game studio or hell any 3D job that's not just concepting and your topology is trash you're not getting hired period.
Hi Josh ! FRIKIN USEFULL these video!!!! THANKS a lot bud!!! So, one little consideration: if I'm a 3D resin printer modeler I assume that "ngons/quads" I dont give a f**k ! I consider them only If I'm, for example, a 3D video editing/render and so on. Correct ?
For 3D printing you should be using CAD. Fusion 360 or plasticity. Save yourself the trouble. Polygons have advantages but none for 3D printing. It has a lot of disadvantages though in the modeling process.
@@RunTheTape THANKS bud! I think i'll considering work with both blender and plasticity though.... I' ll see 🧐 !!! Peace! 👋✌️🤝