3 Beginners vs 1 Pro
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Can you repeat this challenge but add another Cat 5 rider every time you win? That would be hilarious. Jeff vs 19 Cat 5s!!
Or three Cat 4 and then three Cat 3? :)
the dream manhunt approach 😂
I would love to see EJ vs these 3 to see if he can capitalize on what he's learned so far this year.
this. the idea of this video is great, but Cat 1 vs Cat 5 is too big a difference, especially when the Cat 1 knows racing and 5 doesn't. Great video as always though!
EJ will attack drop everyone and then stay away. His ftp is high enough to just solo away
@@nicschne Absolutely. Dude could attack once and then just ride threshold for the rest of the race to win by a large margin.
I want to see EJ and two of these guys versus Jeff!
@@jamese4729 1v1 ej vs jeff, ej would just hold jeff's wheel and out sprint him, if he was smart.
@@timtaylor9590 you are in theory right, I think. I'd bet EJ has better numbers than Jeff at this point, but Jeff is crafty and EJ loves to attack. I doubt EJ would be willing to just sit on Jeff's wheel for the whole race!
It would be really neat to have these 3 racers watch this video and then do a rematch to see how well they're able to implement Jeff's tips.
They’re still not going to be able to come up with enough wattage in beginner legs.
Great video, but the cat 5 team had zero chance. You definitely could have done a solo breakaway from lap one.
fr he barely go into Z3 HR lol
Maybe, but the risk is if I really commit 100% to solo and then they execute a well organized chase I might get outsprinted after a late catch by their fresh sprinter. Lot of ifs in there but I still feel like my best chances were to just punish their sloppy technique and keep it together for a field sprint
Definitely agree with the strategy. Never commit more than you need and the safest bet for a sprinter is to hold back and take advantage if possible. If opponents do manage to keep attacking in an organized fashion, then maybe think about GSCY.
@@NorCalCycling but cat 5s have no racing experience and know nothing about drafting , wind, attacking, or any other tactics that only come with years of racing, so they had zero chance. if any them attacked and got clear you could easily have bridged up and won the sprint very easily
@@52daytripper I don't know about that. Videos like Jeff's as well as seeing bike races and hearing commentary mean beginners are increasingly informed on tactics and training. Executing is a different matter, and takes practice, but they do know a lot about them (although that move where the rider pulled through and gave Jeff a turn was definitely wild.)
What does make a difference is that Jeff can spike his power very high very quickly to close a gap. A couple of these attacks were strong, but few cat 5s will have the explosive power to match Jeff pushing to close that gap regardless of draft. No teamwork will help hold a draft when you're a cat 5 pushing a threshold effort and the person in front busts out 900w.
I think the fitness differential was just too big for them to have had a chance. You should do it next with cat 4s
ya maybe we will good call
Love it. Just keep upping the ante.
Great content as always! This type of one vs. many video is fun, especially when well matched. Maybe EJ + another cat 3 vs. Jeff next??
I concur!
Ohh that would be fun good idea, we have more of these in the works 👌
make it happen!😊
I second that
@@NorCalCycling Absolutely need to get EJ and crew vs Cycling Dad aka Jeff
You should repeat this with EJ in place of you, and with you coaching the three amigos.
Good idea
When you flicked the elbow and he didnt immediately sit up! Love it
I think the big issue here wasn't organization of Team Cat 5, but instead fitness. They tried to attack, but they just didn't have to power to do damage to Jeff. Then they didn't have the power to be able to get back on when the other teammate attacked. I mean a 300w attack for Cat 5 could be 150% of FTP but that's probably around or even below FTP of a Cat 1 rider.
Totally agree! The Cat 5’s don’t have the sustained power to put in a long hard attack and to recover quickly enough to handle a counter attack.
Great video! EJ would benefit from these type of challenges.
There is a video of three pros riding against van der Poel on a 6 km „race“. They wanted to do 2-1 attacks, but MvdP just hammered it from the start at 60 kph and they had no chance haha
I would love to see a video about what is the least amount of wattage you can output and win a Cat 5 race. So Jeff if somehow you were allowed to race Cat 5 what's the least amount of effort you could expend, and then compare that to what a beginner rider might be expending. It would also be very interesting to know what's a ballpark minimum ftp you need to be able to hang with Cat 5s.
first RBC race cat 5's avg 27mph. the last race they avg 24. goes to show the sand bagging
They are not strong enough to "attack" you. They just give a draft. Their attack is just one of your cat 1 teammate going in the front.
Really entertaining video. The disparity of experience highlights the strategy points more effectively than a normal race analysis vid. And 100x better than the GCN “3 road cyclists vs 1 TT rider” videos
I dont think even a whole pack of cat 5s would have been enough.
If they don’t work as a team then I think you’re right
@@NorCalCycling fitness beats tactics, no?
@@DanTuber Yes and no, IIRC Jeff mentioned in the past, that winners might not necessarily have the highest average power in the race. They just race efficiently.
Very interesting. No one has ever set up bike races the way NorCal does. It is a unique perspective and very helpful to any level of racer. You clearly pointed out how important race strategy is…assuming that it was an effective strategy and carried out as designed. This was an easy win because you had just about a full book of matches left while they has used half of theirs.
this was really good, make more videos like this!
that sprinter guy had good idea in his head, he saw Jeff looking away over his left shoulder, and tried to catch him by surprise. Honestly, if it was just 200m and Jeff wasn't well-trained sprinter, he would've had a chance right then and there. fun video, kudos !!
You should do a 3 junior vs 1 cat 1 video
Love the format. I really enjoy your 1/2/Pro commentaries, but I think they are going to be lost on people new-ish to the sport. So it's really nice to see a video like this one that is much more approachable to people still trying to wrap their heads around all of the conflicting pieces that go into being a successful bike races, vs just being a bike rider.
Repeatedly using the tumbleweed barrier maneuver was the game changer… 😁🍻
For those that want to see this in the Pro Peleton look up the 2001 Paris Roubaix where it was 4v1. Team Domo kept rolling attacks on Hincapie and swept the podium plus 5th place.
Great coaching and tips in this video.
Fun concept! Would be cool to see this become Jeff vs. 3xcat 4’s, 3xcat 3’s, 3xcat 2’s.
this was awesome. I love including/ being welcoming to beginners. you should try to do 3 Cat. 1’s vs 1 World Tour rider!
I feel any world tour rider could get a gap and tt to the finish, without breaking a sweat
@@Hill_Walker you'd be surprised, Cat. 1's that focus on Crit riding can really hold their own
More of these, please! I’m just getting in to the sport, and you are doing a fantastic job of explaining complex concepts at a level that a beginner can understand. Learned so much from this!
Awesome content! I would love to see some progression with the same group of riders to see if they can pull out the W over the course of a couple races. Maybe throw EJ into the mix to help get these riders working together.
Damn dude. Jeff’s race strategy of saving energy and asking “what am I doing and why am I doing it?” is a total stock trader mentality. Just realized why I’m into this channel even though I don’t race.
I bike casually for exercise, and stumbled across your channel I guess because I was looking up repair videos - I've enjoyed all of your content, but this one in particular was really great for giving me an understanding of the value of racing teams and the race tactics team racing can introduce. Thanks!!
Glad to see they didn't wreck off the start line
Interesting video to see how the 5s race. I think we all know that if you wanted to you could easily break away at the start and solo ride the whole thing to win.
This type of content becomes great training for beginners. Thanks.
"What's your strategy?" ... "I'm going to try and cross the finish line first." BRILLIANT! :D So fun to watch. Good stuff. And you're right, lower category racing starts off being about fitness and power, while higher category racing is more about finesse and tactics.
Well said!
Excellent video. I think you should try this again with slightly more experienced riders, nothing too ridiculous - just see where the limit is 😁
More videos like this ! Very entertaining!
yellow needs more of a run, down in the drops and hold it 5-10sec longer. -U10
Yeah, this effectively hammers the point that strategy is the focal point of racing.
Power output difference is huge from cat1 to cat5, just 5-10min supra threshold effort and there is no way cat5s could catch you even in a ttt mode.
Nice one. Do it again! Now they have learned, let them try again. It has the potential to be great viewing and a great race. Come on, Geoff, get it on!
lol the cat 5 riders headshake is awesome. this was fun to watch.
man when i raced crits in 4/5 i wish some cat 1 tought me all this stuff, would of been fun, i just tried to attack and would get destroyed by lap 3 lol
The fitness difference is too great for even team tactics to work I think
Having very modest natural ability (despite good training and LOTS of enthusiasm) and spending YEARS as a Cat 4, (and well remembering my days as a Cat 5) I think I am pretty qualified to say that there is NO Cat 1 that would EVER have any problem responding to relentless, constant attacks by Cat 5’s!
I think that the only chance for a win was to pretty much wait for about 1km to go and for 2 riders to drop back 50m or so and then both of them do a co-ordinated attack in a paceline format. They needed to pass with the best part of a 10kmh or high speed difference and use the full width of the road to make it harder to latch on. A couple of turns while at as close to full speed as possible and then the second rider to make their bike as wide as possible to make it hard for Jeff to pass. The attack has to be as hard as possible so that Jeffs sprint has to be extended beyond a few hundred metres.
This was interesting from a tactics point of view, but realistically you could have ridden away. I spent my first couple years of road cycling, riding with Cat 3+ riders, before getting my license and going to my first Cat 5 crit (I really didn't want to race, but I succumbed to peer pressure). I literally lapped the pack because of the difference between someone who rides 4-6 days a week with 'serious' riders and your average Cat 5 is insurmountable. That was a pack of 30+ riders.
I love it! Very informative thanks
Tremendous commentary!
Serious question. If you're tall (over 6'3") you can't really draft because everyone is smaller than you. So what do taller riders do? What is their strat?
wow. textbook lesson!
I truly hope they stick to the sport, see from this experience and the analysis you shared with them on the day or now with this vid what and how they can improve upon, and maybe rendez-vous for a rematch when let's say 2 of them, if not all, will have made the jump to cat 4. That would be great !
These guys did good. For there 1st “race” they did pretty good to hold it together. At least they didn’t get dropped. Learning how to ride efficiently and effectively takes time. Love these type of vids! I want to start some practice crits here in upstate Ny, trying to find an industrial place like this..did you have to talk to the business owners to clear your bigger group to ride here?
The watch on the bike got me😂
Was Youtubing the different types of hurricanes and ended here. Now I wanna be a crit racer.
What’s etiquette on the elbow flick from the person pulling, are you obligated to get in front?
Depends on the circumstances of the race but the short version is no you never have to pull. This might conflict with your chances of getting an individual result though
I think this was just help help the old man’s self esteem because EJ is stealing the thunder. Any cat 1 could solo the whole thing from the beginning. Good teaching for these guys tho to show the difference in cats.
Go solo but then get caught at the end and one of them has a fresh sprint is the danger there. Also I’m hoping Ej keeps winning and steals all the thunder that’s literally the point of couch to crit and the masterclass
@@NorCalCycling I think even in that situation you could easily outsprint their protected rider
ya maybe, but chances are better if i just try to keep it together instead of going solo
Super cool! I really hope there will be more of these in the future
Nice one Jeff and a fun vlog, hopefully the newbies learned a few valuable lessons out of the experience.
I was hoping the Cat 5s' unspoken Plan B was for the two attackers to box Jeff in at 300-500m and let their designated sprinter get a head start....
Awesome video as allways
Good strategy, not the best execution. But maybe they just aren't strong enough to hurt him anyway. Just shows the strength of a CAT 1 rider.
Interesting seeing the difference in training level. You were in Z2 sitting in their draft. I assume these guys will be doing their first race soon?
Very cool. Great training for them
right from the beginning when I read the title, I knew who was going to win. It was interesting to watch but also very easy to predict how the race will develop. Instead of racing against 3, cat5s you should have doubled the cat5s team.
Maybe an Idea for a future Video would be to have 2 cat5s teams of 3-4 Rider against Jeff solo.
or 1 cat5 team of 4, a cat3 team of 2-3 rider and Jeff solo again.
I think that would be interesting to watch, maybe you like the Idea and have the people to organize something like that.
Good video 👍. Thanks
Not a fair fight.
15:08 It's not about power, but the position and technique could be better, the yellow's sprint was not the most aero, so too much energy was wasted. At a certain point in the race I thought they were attacking his teammates, because he wouldn’t let them recover. 😂
thanks Jeff it was a masterclass, how to get out of a disadvantageous situation. In a no mates Crit.
How did you find three Cat 5s that have never watched your videos to race against? Bring on the Cat 4s!
I think a rematch is in order. Now that this video is out for them to see what they did wrong, let's see if they learned anything.
Experience is also the key here. They should have sit together.. Try to hit... let you close the gap.. and hit back on you. But like you said. They didn't use the sling shot fx. I don't know which cat I am. I do finish rides between 27 and 30 ave km and races between 28 and 31 ave km. I'm 50 years. lol. But I've been racing since my younger years.
Good video. Maybe If they have trained or ride together more often, maybe they could have done more damage. Maybe you get the win but with some suffering lol. 🤣
Thanks for sharing man..
I suspect on those attacks they'd tell you they _were_ really going for it. You forget us normal folks can't turn a thousand watts on and off like a light switch.
Great video to show that sometimes it's of great benefit to chase down your team mates. The two guys one-two-ing would have had even less chance of winning in a 1 vs 1 situation.
This is like Kramer (Seinfeld) dominating his karate class. All in humor of course. Great lesson taught here though.
So fun to watch and a lot to learn !
I loved this video. Very educational.
Without even watching I’d bet the Cat 1 takes it easily. Even if they are fit, beginners are not going to have that snappiness and power, and not enough base to compete with an elite racer. I have raced against people who are now pros, but when they were just starting out they were just okay. It took a couple of seasons to start to build, and then they excelled rapidly.
This is better than GCNs five road bikes vs one TT rider
A better test would be to have three Cat 3's who are usually mid-pack finishers.
Love this video. Need EJ and the 3 cat 5s for next challenge.
This is a good video. It's got that "stunt we did for youtube" appeal, but without all that GCN fluff.
In a way, this is a stunt for youtube, it's designed to boil down bike racing strategy to it's most basics. The race was real, and the vibes are always 100% on shoot/race days 🤘
Should have done it with a half-lap difference to let them have their own little group/chain-gang as there's no way they were ever going to outrun you even if they attacked repeatedly IMO. I'd love to be proved wrong though.
We have a similar idea in the works, stay tuned 🤘
I liked this video, great content for new racers. This group appears to have a good strategy, but it was poorly implemented. Another strategy I think they could have tried is to get all 3 lined up in front of Jeff, then front guy launches while the other two soft pedal. I'm not sure Jeff would even fall for that even on their first try, certainly not when it becomes their pattern, but I would have at least tried it, especially if there's no monster sprinter with the snap to jump from behind Jeff. The counter for Jeff might be to never let himself be 4th in line.
Would love a video with positive examples. Massive sling shot attacks destroying the group, clean cornering, etc.
Jeff and EJ vs Ryan!
Bow to your sensai!
whats with the out of the saddle on the hoods about? indoor number geeks?
Such a great video. Tactics would have really helped them. But the race experience you have, you’d need a mountain bike for them to stand a chance 😆
really cool video!! Keep'em coming!
Dude it’s all about the fitness difference. You could ride all 3 of them off your wheel
I just bought some tifosi shades from this video, they should sponsor you lol
SAG truck couldn't get rid of that tumbleweed?
What a ton of difference
My man is smurfin'
Ain't no way. I "helped" chase Mark Tucker at Pumpkin Valley a few weeks ago with a mix of categories, a masters state champ, and the Vegan Cyclist. I'm pretty sure he took the W. I'm not sure, I wasn't close enough to see the finish.
I'm so stressed at the screen with all off them being on the tops.... even on the front x.x
As the adage says: Old age and treachery will defeat youth and strength every time!
Couple clips missing luts
Hahah this is no fair! They don't have enough race experience/knowledge. You coaxed him into taking a pull!! 7:00 😂
Can you have a rematch with them? so they can apply their lessons learnt!
I think these 3 will be twice the rider that they currently are just by the lessons learned in this one race
Shows how Jumbo Visma masterfully attacked Tadej in last year’s TDF, even though he was much stronger.
Now I want to see cat1 vs 3 cat 4
Haven't seen it yet but I would "zwift" it: full gas for 45 seconds than TT solo to the finish line. But what fun would that be?
After watching: they did a really good job for CAT 5, your level of tactics is going to overcome a lot of different scenarios like this. Good video.
I can't believe he fell for the elbow trick!