Whats funny is Tolkien's world never truly ended either. There was suppose to be this huge battle in the 4th and final age but Tolkien died before he wrote it.
@@Ben-fl6rf Yeah, that was an idea he was toying with, but it didn't go far cause he had trouble making it work. More to the point he didn't begin the story by publishing the start of it while he wrote the next part - which wasn't his style anyway to his publishers chagrin - which would make it on par with Martin's situation. The Silmarillion was the big project he was working on when he died, and maybe you can call that unfinished, but we basically still got the story thanks to his son (with help from Guy Gavriel Kay). I doubt any successful massive world building author simply walks away when their work is "complete", whether they keep it internal or put it on paper or tweet out random tidbits like JK Rowling.
@@Ben-fl6rf well technically "Middle-Earth" has several conclusive endings, take LOTR out, the Hobbit & Silmarillion still have conclusive endings. While not even the Hedgeknight or Ice and Fire (which are really similar in concept so I think it's fair to compare) aren't done either. On the point of "network of plots", I don't think Martin should get that point before actually resolving it, plotting is only half of the cake, the show had that too, but if you later need to resort deus ex machina, irrationally action characters, characters going 180 on their character, etc. you basically tangle yourself up, which imo isn't a plus (and I guess one of the reasons Winds and Dream aren't out).
@@ducovanderwoude6971, there would still be war since neither side would be willing accept a tie, especially if they felt the points were not awarded properly.
@@jayt9608 Fuck You All The Haters!!!! If it wash't Lord of the Rings and all of the rest of Middle Earth (Arda) Books and Stories such as Silmarilion or the Fall of Gondolin all the rest of Fantasy wouldh't exist!!!! The same goes for Narnia Chronicles, the Prydain Chronicles and the Shannara Chronicles cause if it wash't even these book series and the worlds and characters and adventures in these books then we wouldh't have many more fantasy at all!!!! A Song of Ice and Fire big turd in the wind in many places and points!!!!
I really do like ASoIaF's magic system. Uniquely for fantasy, it makes magic feel occult and weird. You can tell Martin was a horror writer. It makes perfect sense why most people would be scared of and distrustful toward magic.
@@midgetwthahacksaw you don't explain the mechanics of a soft magic system. That being said, there are details we know. - Fire magic is intrinsically linked to the presence of dragons. For a century, fire magic had stopped working in the West because no dragons remained, but it still functioned in the far east because Asshai has wild dragons. - Skinchangers establish a mental bond to an animal, after which they can enter the creature's mind. When skinchangers die, they enter one of their bonded creatures. When greenseers die, they enter the weirwood trees. - Strong magic requires blood sacrifice. The First Men used to execute prisoners in from of weirwoods, and Ned Stark cleaned the blood from his sword in front of a weirwood. The Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" describe how to use Valyrian magic.
ArmorFrog Entertainment also there is a constant war between unknown forces more powerful than the others and millisandres god. And I think the power disparity that let ice return was the fact that there was no fire presence. But since Dany got them back there will be a big showdown. It will end the world on leave it in shambles because one of these powers must die.
@@MM-xm5vx it seems the powers of Ice and Fire both must die because both have the potential to destroy the world. The Long Night was death by Ice. The Doom of Valyria was death by Fire.
There is a LOT more magic going on than you first think. You think north of the wall, red priest and the quarth warlocks are basically all the magic in the books, just a couple chapters per book, just enough to keep you guessing and wanting more. Until you read the books carefully for the third time and you realize magic is happening like every other chapter, even in the Hedge Knight! It's just incredibly subtle, unlike most magic systems where it is vibrant and flashy, martins magic is so subtle that you won't even notice it until you pay very close attention.
I think Fire and blood its like more a succession of historical events. Silmarilion is more mithological and interconnected because themes and characterers ressonates through the ages
@@stephenpetersen1945 Fire and Blood is specifically in the style of medieval chronicles, and has an in universe writer who is an unreliable narrator etc. . The Silmarillion is much more like the Bible - it begins with creation. They aren't really meant to be compared.
The genius of LoTR’s plot is how simple it is. It’s a simple plot in this grand world, with an intricate story, which is why it works so well. Tolkien always knew how to balance simplicity with complexity, answers with mysteries.
The fact that there are so many series that I feel comfortable even comparing to LotR nowadays is a testament to how well the fantasy genre has evolved and proof that it is currently in its golden age.
@@deg1studios lotr series will bes shit they will ruin it it will not be as GoT except the ending And we will not get to see the same aragorn or Frodo or Gandalf or Sam or Legolas or gimli or theoden or etc..
I agree with everything except for readability. I dont know why, but I have never struggled to read Tolkien, I find his descriptions fascinating and Im never bored at any point of the story, I fly through the books. I know this is not a common opinion, as far as I know only my sister agrees with me, but because of that, for me Tolkien is the winner :D
I read them when I was in elementary school, and it set a high bar for other books. Wheel of Time so far for me is very easy to read, even the slog, and other books seem almost too simple in their pros. I definitely agree here.
I feel exactly the same. Tolkien just grabs my interest and never lets off, even his other works like Children of Hurin and the Legend of S&G.. Whereas in series with simpler writing I find myself constantly bored and distracted, the levels of immersion are also much lower... wheel of time, for example, was absolute torture for me to read.
It really is subjective. I read a lot of adult books when I was young, and when I read A Song of Ice and Fire I just devoured it-didn’t have a problem whatsoever. But I’ve never read the Lord of the Rings, or the Hobbit. I tried to read it at twelve (my dad actually offered to pay me to read them) and I just couldn’t get into it. I think I could read it, but it was just so hard to find anything to latch on to. I’d like to try it again someday, though memories of the writing style and my feelings reading the first few chapters keep deterring em.
@@samkathryn4825 I have experienced that feeling when I started reading lotr. But I obliged myself to read the first chapter and I Dare say it's the best decision ever 😅 I swear it gets amazing the further you delve in.
These comments are actually a lot more civil than I thought they were going to be lol. Nice to see nerds getting along instead of being at each other's throats! I personally like LOTR more, but then again I've only read the first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series (which I am going to remedy soon) and LOTR is just kinda nostalgic for me. That being said, I completely agree with every one of Daniel's points.
If anyone watching this has not, for some reason, watched Epic Rap Battles of History: George R.R. Martin vs J.R.R. Tolkien, do that right now! ...After you're done watching this video, of course 😋
my dad read the hobbit and the lord of the rings out loud to me and my siblings, and after reading them myself, I can confidently say that it is a far more enjoyable experience listening to LotR than reading it
I think I figured it out on my own. I can think of one series, although I only read the first, that has a weak use of magic. Sword of Truth. I suffered through the first book and couldn’t believe anyone would want to read more. Someone please tell me I am right because I would hate to think there is another crappy series out there.
@@heedlessthievery Nah, I am pretty sure he is talking about Sanderson. Dani clearly hates how Brandon handles, develops and introduces magic into his books
100% LotR. I love that series. My kids nursery was even Tolkien themed, complete with a painted tree of Gondor on the wall and a stylized version of Bilbo's door on his crib. Once he's out of the room to make way for the incoming child, I'll add a few more things to it.
I just found out my 25 year old daughter is pregnant, she was raised on Tolkien and wants to call the baby Arwen if it is a girl, decorating the nursery Tolkien style is a wonderful idea! ❤
14:05 I had the same problem, i'm not a naitve english speaker so reading LOTR was a very hard work for 15 years old me, the arabic translation was so bad and illogical that they translated some kind of animal to what literally means " iraqi duck" IRAQ IN LOTR!! So i had to read the english one and it was a very hard and beautiful trip, i think about reading it again to see how my english has improved.
"Gee willikers, let's pick up the Silmarillion!" 😂😂 I have actually done this on rainy afternoons! I agree on Martin getting the point for character, but ultimately I think Middle-earth will have more staying power. It's already lasted 70 some years and without it ASoIaF wouldn't exist.
It is calming to know I still have some loyal elves under my command. They seem to have grown “few” in these days of late. #mandoscanjumpofftaniquetilforallicare
Both Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire hold a dear place in my heart, but I think that they can’t necessarily be compared. I think Lord of the Rings being considered the standard or the grandfather of fantasy kind of makes it hard to verse it with other stories. Both are really great in my opinion; Tolkien set the standard for epic fantasy and crafted a beautiful story and world that just so awesome, while Martin has deviated a lot from those standards and seems so realistic. Both are fantastic in their own way, and I never get tired of reading them or seeing other people who love it just as much talk about it.
I don't understand comparisons except dragons, world map and lots of characters. I love both, of course Tolkien is always going to be better, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating other fantasy writers.
@@winnym6806 Why would Tolkien obviously be better? Better is an entirely subjective matter without putting up very specific parameters for people to judge on, and even when trying to put up some objective parameters it will be very hard to argue that Tolkien did everything better than anyone. Tolkien is the most influential, but that's not at all synonymous with better.
I will always go for Tolkien, his work has had such a profound affect on my life, it is the first fantasy series I read as a child, I enjoyed song of ice and fire but it felt harsh an brash compared to Tolkiens writing, when I read LotR it is almost ethereal and the themes are still so relevant to day. Did the people you spoke to enjoy the films, I wonder if different mediums can reach fantasy fans than the books can not? I have visited Tolkiens grave several times now, it is so beautiful and there is this air of all encompassing magic. I do sit and cry next to his grave, thank you Tolkien, and I wish everyone one of your subscribers ' Magic". which I still believe can be found in this world if you know where to look!
That bit with the lights in the beginning... I think that officially makes you my favorite TH-camr. It was so goddamn stupid that I couldn't help but love it.
I love the Silmarillion! I tend to like it slightly more than LotR, both being my favourite books. I'm 23 years old, first read Tolkien at 13, and it has changed me and my life! I don't really care much for fantasy after the 1990s, otherwise.
something i like about the contrasting themes and magic systems in Lotr and Asoiaf is that they're kinda opposite in a way: Lotr deals a lot with the death of magic, while in Asoiaf magic seems to return after having been gone for a long time
Recuerdo que nos obligaron a leer el Quijote en el colegio, un buen libro pero preferiría que nos obligaran a leer el Señor de los Anillos, pónganse las pilas profes
@@elgranlugus7267 Completamente de acuerdo contigo, pero recuerdo a mi profe glorificar al Quijote como la segunda venida de Cristo y eso me emocionó mucho! Lo termino de leer y lo encuentro bueno y algo cómico pero tampoco fue para tanto, disfruté más el SDLA (además no siento que podamos comparar al Quijote con ESDLA como literatura de fantasía)
@@maurodv8220En cuál asignatura te obligaron a leerlo? A mi en Español/Literatura española y apuesto que a la gran mayoría también, es por eso que los profes no pueden "ponerse las pilas" y obligarte a leer ESDLA, ya que esa es literatura inglesa, obvio que leerías una traducción, pero la esencia y el sentido original del autor se pierde mucho en las traducciones. El Quijote se lee a fuerza en todo el mundo hispanohablante por obvias razones, es la mayor obra en nuestro idioma. Lo contrario para el mundo anglosajón, a ellos los obligan a leer Shakespeare y Tolkien porque son los máximos exponentes de su idioma y muy pocos de ellos conocen o han leído El Quijote.
Listening to Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion on audio book, make them a lot more enjoyable, something about listening to that older way of writing is very pleasing......Also I love the Silmarillion a lot more then the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings
As much as I want to clap back on LOTR readability I must admit that I slogged through Fellowship my senior year of high school and didn't return to it until after I graduated college five years later. Now It's my favorite series of all time. I've read through it twice and eagerly want to revisit it again if I can ever find a break in my TBR.
I get why ASOIAF gets the point for characters. When someone asked me who my favorite character in the series is, I started off with a couple of characters, but ended naming maybe 7 characters.
ASOIAF (and the TV series) are really some of the most compelling series to talk to people about, mostly because of the characters. It's always interesting to find out which characters people like the most and how people often have complete opposite lists.
This is the video I needed today! Love lotr so I’m biased lol. I also love the silm and I’m the guy that would pick it up on a rainy Sunday afternoon. It would be awesome if you could do a Stormlight Archive versus mistborn battle. I know Stormlight isn’t finished but I think it would be interesting.
I much prefer A Song of Ice and Fire over any other fantasy series. The books are just amazing. Their foreshadowing, great history and huge lore, depth of character and the vast amount of them in the series just makes it seem so epic for me. The White Walkers, Dany and her dragons, Euron trying to literally become a god, all the other lovecraftian races and a mysterious magic system. This just resonates with me, and will always be my favourite book series of all time.
Agree on all points. I remember buying the LOTR books and the cashier was a huge fan and was excited for me to read them. I didn't have the heart to tell her next time that I barely finished The Fellowship. The prologue was my first indicator that the book may not be for me. Love the films and thus the story but I'm character driven, not world. ASoIaF got in my head straight away. The night I started it, I dreamt of walking the wall, it was easy to read and follow and juicy with character and plot. Each to their own.
Honestly, I thought you were about to give the point for characters to LOTR when you warned about your unpopular opinion on that one. I thought that ASOIAF was the obvious choice? Not because LOTRs characters are bad, but it's just really well done in ASOIAF... I agree on all points with you, it's hard to compare these two, because they intend to do different things and do each of them very well. Great video!
Yeah when it comes to character depth, GRRM wins no question..because he writes realistic, morally grey characters. Tolkiens characters are simple, but they are meant to be that way. They are often what we aim to be as humans...GRRM writes who we really are, the dark realities and how lofty ideals can often get you killed.
Very good video and good points. At first I was disappointed you went with a tie, but after thinking about it, it does make sense. Both do things very distinctly their own way.
Comparing high fantasy to low fantasy is a bit difficult for me as the two genres have such different feels to them. It's kinda like comparing Nine Inch Nails to Pink Floyd. While both are rock they are very different kinds of rock. That being said, what Tolkien was able to accomplish with TLOTR might never be surpassed. The world, number of races, extremely long history, overall story, languages and mythology he himself created are all stuff of legend which will never be forgotten. His style of writing and storytelling is also far beyond anything I've ever read. Reading TLOTR is mesmerizing in a way I've never experienced before. When you pick up a book and purposefully read it very slowly because it's MORE enjoyable that way you know you've got something truly special in your hands. He had the ability to say more in a few lines than most authors can say in a few pages. That being said ASOIAF is incredible. Probably the best low fantasy ever created. The amount of detail in Martin's books is beyond measure and his characters are so fleshed out it's mindblowing. The dark atmosphere of his world also has a very realistic and captivating feel to it. Every time I picked-up one of his books the atmosphere around me instantly changed. It was like everything around me became a bit gloomier. There were some pacing issues with the series thus far. While reading them I would occasionally get to long stretches I had to force myself to get through before things picked-up again. It wasn't too often but it did happen. Sometimes for quite a while. Especially in books 4 and 5. That's something you don't need to worry about with TLOTR. The two series are just so completely dissimilar though that it's just difficult for me to hold them up against each other. The style of storytelling, atmosphere, overall length and pacing, type of story (political low fantasy vs apocalyptic high fantasy) are all just very different. If they were both in the same genre of fantasy it would make much more sense to me. Please don't take offense. I love your channel and think you have great taste when it comes to fantasy. You personally turned me on to Brandon Sanderson and changed my life as a reader and I am greatly appreciative for that. (GREATLY) Keep up the good work my friend.
ASOIAF Is high fantasy because martin created his own world. Low fantasy is magic witch is in our world like Harry Potter. Lotr and ASOIAF are both high fantasy. It has nothing to do with magic.
@@sabakka-e5u not according to TV tropes, also harry potter is urban fantasy. I feel Daniel Greene has weird definitions for genre only he uses, especially in terms of fantasy.
"high fantasy" has two very different definitions, and should therefore never be used to describe anything. You have the "high fantasy vs low fantasy" that's basically Epic vs Heroic fantasy (LotR being High, Conan being Low). And then from a completely different critical tradition you have the concept that "high fantasy" means its own world while "low fantasy" is set in our world. High/low should just not be used. Use Epic fantasy, Heroic fantasy, secondary world, portal fantasy as needed.
ASoIaF is the one series I managed to be completely hooked on. When I was reading the books everything I talked about was somehow related. I really like LotR it was awesome but I'm not nearly as invested into it as I am into ASoIaF. Martin just created a full damn WORLD and I cant get enough of that. Every little political detail, every character every map it just fascinates me like nothing else ever does. The map is amazing too imo! Not a hard choice for me :D
@@brooksboy78 I disagree. Also i feel like Martin's character work and their interactions are much more interesting and subtle. LotR is great in worldbuilding but aSoIaF suits my taste better.
Each fantasy has its great parts and it's hold backs, I like how in ASoIaF magic is a combination of tricks, illusions, human sacrifice, hive minds, skin wearing and commits. It shows that magic isn't all one thing its partly a show for religion or coin, or to create immortality and even becoming a god. Lord of the rings magic is all over the place there are no guide lines for what someone can or cannot do, and rings grant you power but different for each race, the elves have healing and nurturing powers, while men have rings for destruction, manipulation and power, all bending to the will of the dark lord, Saruman makes a ring for himself to increase his power, and hes already great at manipulating people and giving council, which he uses to change good things to evil deeds. ASoIaF in one hand is just a great read, you can see historical inspiration in alot of the characters and houses and places, but the world map itself is so unimaginative I want to rip my hair out, for Westeross you take the British isles flip it that's the north, and lower westeros is ireland upside down, the Iron Islands are the three islands off of the Jutland Penninsula essos, is the west coast of Italy, but it continues for miles west until you get to the grey wastes, the shadow mountians of mordor( I mean Ashia by the shadow) Valyria is an ancient map of Greece The map made by Christopher Tolkien looks great I don't see many things that are just real places but inverted in some way. in fact, there are several references to Lord of the rings in Westeros, in the north by the Rills you see the barrowlands. A lot of the gods in ASoIaF are taken of both inspiration from real-world religions predominantly Christianity Azor Ahai being Brutus and Nissa Nissa as Jesus. the Drowned God is a reference to baptisms in the Christian religion while drawing heavily from the cult of Dagon, and the words of house grey joy are a play on H.P.Lovecrafts "What is dead may never lie, and in strange eons, even death may die" the red god Rhlor is a play on words to the city in which Cthulu lyes in deathless sleep, and in the city of ashia there is the church of starry wisdom which is not even a play on words or referenced where a loose connection could be drawn, but the exact name of the cult in the Cthulu mythos, of Nyarlathotep, and beyond it deeper in the shadow is a gate where r'hllor resides until the ending of the world, which is another Cthulu reference. Trios is a reference to Catholicism, the seven-pointed star is the seven archangels(also Sept which is the churches for the religion translates from Latin meaning seven), Lightbringer is a reference to the warrior angel Alexander, with his flaming sword, or to Lucifer, because Lightbringer means lucifer. the obscure religion of the Sheperd worshiped by the peaceful people to the far east of Essos, is a reference to Jesus. There has also been many hints in the novels that the gods are one, the seven are considered the seven aspects of one god, R'hllor is one ("good") god against another, the Drowned god is one, which leads me to think its going to be George RR Martin ripping off Roman History, for Aurelian stating that Sol Invictus is all gods combined into one, with Constantine later painting a symbol on all the shields of his men that united the pagan gods, the Christian god and Sol Invictus, and later when he made the currency for his empire it was on one side the Chi Rho and Sol Invictus on the other. Theory Time: My thoughts are Jon in his vision in a clash of kings when he sees not an army but a people united in one cause, that might have been Mance raiders army, but I think it was an army of all peoples standing against the white walkers, because when he first gets that vision he hears Bran's voice in a warewood and the quest he was going on with the half hand, was basically so the watch could have a man on the inside of the army, and figure out their plan. The watch has known that the villages have been abandoned and that they are gathering to the king in the north, so why would Bran show Jon, something that the watch already knows about, unless he's showing him something in the future, this is the same book where Jon follows ghost into the woods where he leads him to where one of the children of the forest plants a strange horn along with obsidian daggers. When you start to look at the wolves and the dreams, the starks have its clear the wolves were given to them for a purpose so the children could control them or be controlled by them, when Jon first decides to join the watch he gets drunk and his wolf is beside him the whole time when he claims to want to join the watch, when Tyrion walks into the court the wolves growl and attack him, Arya's dog starts making a massive wolf army terrorizing the country, Robs wolf warns him about the Freys before the wedding. clearly, the Children or Bloodraven is influencing or attempting to play the game of thrones, in the leaked Mercy chapter for the winds of Winter Arya is sent to be part of a play for the faceless men, and the play is about Tyrion (which is somewhat of a rip off of Shakespeare's Richard III, but in the play Tyrion makes a deal with the stranger which is a black goatman, to kill King Robert. and then the demon possesses a bore and kills the king, now I may be reading to much into this, but Roberts death was not covered well by the books, and maybe blood raven or some powerful warg possessed the bore and killed the king, but a lot of attention is placed on the lannisters especially Lancil for killing the king, but remember all he did, was get the king drunk, which is a weird way of assassinating someone, all be it if they are also hunting, did he expect to find a bore when they were hunting?
how the hell Rhllor and Azor Ahai similar to Christianity or Jesus or Brutus? Rhllor and Azor Ahai completely similar to Zoroastrianism irl... in Zoroastrianism there is Ahura Mazda which is basically means lord of light (Rhllor in ASOIAF) and Ahriman lord of darkness (Others/Lord of Darkness in ASOIAF) so Martin didnt ripped from Roman history he got it from Iranic history many of your theories etc are false even Romans got some god ideas from Iranic people for example Roman soldiers believed in Mithras which is another Iranic god called Mithra (btw Mithra is like Ahura Mazda both of them lord of light)
What in the world does Brutus have to do with Jesus? Brutus was one of Caesar’s assassins, and died on his own sword after being defeated by Octavian 42 years before Jesus was even born. Brutus has no association with any religion.
In regards to your Silmarillion comment, I highly recommend listening to the audiobook. It's beautifully narrated and makes the 'reading' experience so much better.
I think I love Tolkien's works too much to recognise any barrier in the readability anymore. I enjoy reading LOTR so much, and most of The Silmarillion as well, so I don't think I could even judge that anymore.. 😅
@What ? Hello Mr What (lol) It all comes down to that lovely word x) 'opinion.' I just MUCH more enjoy Tolkiens world than Georges. Mainly because of the lore and details surrounding it. (Im a big worldbuilding guy) Now, GRRM is a fine writer, no one can take that away from him. As you said, its more dark and the dialogue is better than lotr, and i agree. But if i wanna read something a lot darker than lord of the rings, i just read Tolkiens other works like the Silmarillion; which i find much more sad and gritty than asoiaf. There are a few reasons more to why i don't love Martins works nearly as much but i think this is enough. Good day to you when you read this. Between if ur really into DARK fantasy, i recommend reading Malazan. It makes both lotr and asoiaf look like the hobbit :)
I totally agree with you point for point. As far as magic goes in asoiaf, TWOW will have magic amped up to levels we haven't seen yet in the series. A Dream of Spring will be the death of that magic. I believe GRRM's work will be as highly regarded as Tolkien when it's all over. It will have staying power over time as well. Tolkien is probably more favored bc it is more kid-friendly. I think people who reread ASOIAF will find more and more reasons to reread again & again. There is just so much packed in there...
I started reading late in my life, so I started with classic literature and worked my way to other genres after that. And I must say, reading ASOIAF or LOTR is a cakewalk after something like Les Miserables, War and Peace or Crime and Punishment. Not necessary a method anyone can adopt, but for me it helped a lot.
Daniel (is it okay if i call you Daniel?) Could you cover some older Pre-tolkien stories? I have found such stories fascinating, and was wondering if you could cover such stories as Conan the Barbarian (the short stories, very different from the film) by Robert E Howard, The John carter series (which i saw you owned) and perhaps king in yellow, who influenced Lovecraft Also, i would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on Lord Dunsany, who inspired such writers as Tolkien, Le Guin, Gaiman, Lovecraft and others. It's a shame that his stories have faded into obscurity, and i think it would be interesting to see your take on it, good or ill. He does takes some getting used to, but his stories are well worth reading.
Whilst I find Martin's work easier to read. Full of twists and interesting relationships. The sheer scale of LOTR, it's characters, lore & history just trump it for me. I also think given the time that LOTR was written it was incredibly unique! Luckily we live in a world where we can enjoy both!
While I love what LotR did for fantasy and I enjoyed reading it, I don't think I'd read it again. I'm glad I did because I love seeing it's influences in the fantasy I read now, but Martin's work is more my style. Also, "Gee willikers, let's read The Silmarillion!" Needs to be on a shirt. I'd wear it.
uncultured.. tolkien's writing is the a thing of beauty. can't get enough of it. very epic, elegant, classy. “And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
@@ClaireYunFarronXIII they are just apparently keen to hate on asoiaf without even needing a reason. It's truly sad, they give the rest of us Tolkien fans a bad rep and name. Since I've loved Lotrs, the hobbit, and Tolkien since childhood, that hasn't changed. Yet Asoiaf is brilliant too. Tolkien might have the grander prose ultimately. Yet Martin is more recent, started out in an entirely different genre in Scifi, and jumped to fantasy, and while Tolkien is indeed brilliant he doesn't capture and write out the beating of his character's hearts on the Page, the way that Martin does. It isn't even close. Tolkien understood just fine that people of small means and origins can achieve great things, but Martin knows this too. Also, Asoiaf is all about choices, that's the entire point. Human choices. Lotrs has thematic overlap in this regard also. They just show and observe it differently. Asoiaf is also an anti-war story, a story about human greatness and abject failure. You aren't supposed to find his characters invincible, or paragons of virtue. Instead they are simply people just like us, all striving, battling their inner demons and worse impulses, both winning and losing to various degrees. That is why Martin is untouchable when it comes to his characters. Both he and Tolkien, write the best and the worst aspects of humanity in equal measure. All with the intention of making entirely different points, and having distinctly different purposes in mind. That person being so short sighted about Asoiaf and selling short what it does so well, irritates me.
For a better comparison, you should read the Memory, Sorrow, Thorn series by Tad Williams. George RR Martin said the series was one of the main inspirations for A Song of Ice and Fire
I see Lord of the Rings as more of the "What is Fantasy as a genre?" series. They're the books you read to learn the rules of the genre so you can break them in your own writing.
Hi Daniel, Excellent video, and a big fan. Personally, I've found Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' to be a more absorbing read, however as a story on the whole 'The Lord of the Rings' I prefer Lord of the Rings, I found 'Feast' and 'Dance' to not quite be of the same quality as the first three books, with the world expanding just a little too much (so much so that I worry that Martin won't be able to wrap up the story in just two more books). I love the video, and I understand with all your points on both properties (I've never managed to get on with The Silmarillion, as much as I've wanted to).
Tolkien is probably easier for new readers as an audiobook than physically. I tried physically reading Tolkien and it was difficult but I loved the audiobook a lot and I think it brings you into the story more.
Reading LOTR was kind of a task.... Reading ASOIAF.... I DEVOURED it! Depends on which style fits you best. I like the everyday, vivid writing style through the eyes of rather humanized characters. It brings the story to life to my taste.
I am ridiculously biased in favor of LotR. Even though I've been reading them for the past 30-odd years and loving them, they reached a different level of sentimental value five years ago. My husband and I first became friends discussing the LotR books and first became a couple while watching the extended versions of all the movies. While it wasn't the first viewing for either of us (by a long shot), it was our first viewing together. Also, our wedding was Middle-Earth themed. Everything from the clothing (my mother is an amazing seamstress, thanks Mom) to the decorations to the food. Hell, even our wedding bands have a Leaves of Lorien motif twining the middle. And yes, it was a spectacularly perfect day all around.
I mostly agree with you however I would give the setting point to LotR, since in my opinion there is no setting which felt so fantastical but still so real
I can only comment on LotR, and while I think the awarding of points was reasonable, an interesting thing to consider is how differently The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and other of Tolkeins works like the Silmarillion feel to read. The tone and style is very different between them, which I think adds difficulty to awarding the readability point.
I didn't start reading ASoIaF until after GoT season 2. I fully enjoyed GoT through season 4, and overall enjoyed season 5, but that's when the big problems became evident. I enjoyed the novels, but I feel they are a bit bloated. There a quite a few side plots and minor characters which I feel could have been omitted. This is a bigger problem for me in books 4 and 5.
A draw?! Boo! But seriously, I wouldn't know how to parse this... I'd almost want to add extra categories as I don't fully disagree with your assessments on the given categories, but they feel lacking in what makes these two series so important to me... ASoIaF gets me on the pragmatic "this is the cruel reality of things and how you have to deal with it" side of things, while LotR gets me on the transcendent "the cruelty of reality is here, but the counterpoint is that there are greater mysteries and wonders that surpass that cruelty and give a glimmer of hope"... And I don't know how to quantify that aspect of LotR, but I know it's what makes it easier to just revisit the world and reread the books for enjoyment over and over. Meanwhile rereading ASoIaF is enjoyable, but you have to brace yourself for the roller coaster of pain inherent to the story...
I love both series but for me the readability point goes to lotr. I can pickup lotr and reread it completely with joy, yet when I want to reread asoiaf I never get to the 'end'...
I tried re-reading lotr recently. I last read it when I was like 12, yet 6 years later, I didn't have the motivation to get it done this time. Meanwhile, I've know asoiaf for 2 and a half years, and I already read the first three five times and the last two four. So yeah...
Lmfao when you mentioned readability I chuckled many times. Definitely how I felt at 7 years old when I picked up the LotR book and I was just like “nope no, I’m okay. The movies are good enough for now. Ill catch up when I can read English gooder.”
I read LotR as a teenager before the movies and one the reasons I loved the movies so much is because I repeatedly felt like "oh so this is what Tolkien was describing for five pages".
I was ready to go to war & fight tooth and nail for LoTR at the start of this...then by the end I just got sad again that GoT the show failed its source material so spectacularly.
Tolkien prose contains some of the best lines and is so undeniably...epic and grand, I actually never had a problem with it, so I personally never saw it as difficult to read :). "All about the hills the hosts of Mordor raged. The Captains of the West were foundering in a gathering sea. The sun gleamed red, and under the wings of the Nazgul the shadows of death fell dark upon the earth. Aragorn stood beneath his banner, silent and stern, as one lost in thought of things long past or far away; but his eyes gleamed like stars that shine the brighter as the night deepens. Upon the hill-top stood Gandalf, and he was white and cold and no shadow fell on him. The onslaught of Mordor broke like a wave on the beleaguered hills, voices roaring like a tide amid the wreck and crash of arms. As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandalf stirred; and he turned, looking back north where the skies were pale and clear. Then he lifted up his hands and cried in a loud voice ringing above the din: The Eagles are coming! And many voices answered crying: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming! The hosts of Mordor looked up and wondered what this sign might mean. There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale. But the Nazgul turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid." Quite epic moment indeed :) hehe, and concerning the themes of the story, Lotr has mulitple layers, Tolkien himself wrote: “Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.”
Idk, I always found Tolkien easy to read and so enjoyable that it reads itself. The Silmarillion I actually read like 10 times and every time I read it, it's always a pleasant and amazing experience. To me, it is definitely a rainy Saturday kinda vibe, so it's strange to see people saying Tolkien is hard to read.
Much as I loved A Song of Ice & Fire (and I've loved it since long before the TV series) it's hard for anything to fight with "The book of the 20th century"!
i love the lord of the rings because it has languages that are rich and complex that influences the mythology and story telling. as a languages nerd that i am wholeheartedly obsessed with, i think that the lord of the rings blows the Song of Ice and Fire in this respect
Even though I am not a big fan of Tolkien nor of Martin but why I think Lotr is and should be praised that much is because Asoiaf shows how we, as people, are. however Lotr shows how we, as humans, should be.
Good idea. First time I've heard it. 👍👍 Thats why without Morgoth or Sauron as villainy, Tolkien couldnt finish the 'New Shadow' as the beginning of Dagor Dagorath. For him, human is not an inherent evil. There must be a reason. Thats why, in middle earth there is no religion. If you are good, then you do good. If you are evil, then you do evil things. That should be one of the moral lesson of the story.
One of Tolkien's goals was to create a mythology for England-- he was writing in an era when nationalism was very important. Scandinavia had mythology, Germany had mythology, but what about England. I recommend two critics who wrote about Tolkien-- Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger. They'll point you at themes you may not have thought about, like how Tolkien used the Baggins'-- relatively modern people-- to ease the reader into a heroic time, or the weirdness about time-- dreams and prophecy and elves-- in LOTR. One more category for rating: emotional range. Tolkien runs from joy to horror, while Martin stays at the dark end mostly. We can hope that things get better in A Dream of Spring, but it hasn't been written yet.
I beg to disagree. Dont you hear Eowyn, the grandmother of all the female action heroin? As Galadriel also as the most powerful elf in middle earth???🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
I can't believe you didn't give the point for writing style to LOTR. And I like ASOIAF's style. Tolkien's use of language is some of the best there is; I don't think accessibility for casual readers is a very important factor when judging prose.
The Wheel of Time vs The Stormlight Archive...or ASOIAF vs The First Law (awesome recommendation by the way) Agree with most of your points and definitely going to have to wait for the end of ASOIAF to truly judge where it should stand amongst the fantasy greats :)
I enjoyed this video! Really well articulated, nice to see the reverence for both works, masterpieces that they are. My only point of contention (4 years later lol), is that I feel like if you compare main story to main story (not including the silmarillion) asoiaf takes the world building point by quite a wide margin
I am in the middle of first book of George R. R. Martin and it's fine. But I would be more excited about reading it if I knew he already published the ending. Or at least declared it written and soon to be published. That would motivate me. For now... I may finish the first book or I may not. We will see..
The section on readability was so different for me. I find Tolkien’s, and other classical writing styles, engaging because of the whimsy in the writing, whereas Martin’s writing style pulls me right out.
I wish I could feel this way. I DIGESTED the Hobbit in middle school but whenever I tried and read anything else Tolkien, half the time it puts me to sleep. It is so dry. I have an easier time reading Martin's I world family history tome. The language is just so biblical and dry. So much of old literature I find to be like that. The way they wrote was just sleepmaking.
I have read ASOIAF 3 times and will re-read again if/when the next book comes out. I’ve tried and failed to re-read LotR. Loved the series and happy I read it, but I just can’t get through it again. So, for me, readability carries more weight than the rest. Also, scoring at home, I had ASOIAF winning 6-1 with the only loss being magic. Martin also has a world book that is infinitely more readable than the Silmarillion (two if you count Fire and Blood)
Concerning the point of readability, the argument could certainly be made that the context of language at the time should be part of determining who gets the point. Martin’s readability is average or below average compared to his contemporaries, while Tolkien’s was superior compared to many, though certainly not all, of his contemporaries.
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Don’t worry, Maddie showed me how to fix the focus issue. 😂
What series should I do next??
For the next fantasy vs may you do Avatar the last Airbender and Wheel of Time?
Foundation vs Dune saga
The Witcher, don't know, something with the Witcher.
Daniel Greene Lord Of The Rings VS Harry Potter
Stormlight vs wheel of time
Daniel: "ASOIAF is an ongoing series and hasn't finished yet."
We know, Daniel. We know...
Whats funny is Tolkien's world never truly ended either. There was suppose to be this huge battle in the 4th and final age but Tolkien died before he wrote it.
@@Ben-fl6rf Yeah, that was an idea he was toying with, but it didn't go far cause he had trouble making it work. More to the point he didn't begin the story by publishing the start of it while he wrote the next part - which wasn't his style anyway to his publishers chagrin - which would make it on par with Martin's situation.
The Silmarillion was the big project he was working on when he died, and maybe you can call that unfinished, but we basically still got the story thanks to his son (with help from Guy Gavriel Kay).
I doubt any successful massive world building author simply walks away when their work is "complete", whether they keep it internal or put it on paper or tweet out random tidbits like JK Rowling.
@@Ben-fl6rf well technically "Middle-Earth" has several conclusive endings, take LOTR out, the Hobbit & Silmarillion still have conclusive endings. While not even the Hedgeknight or Ice and Fire (which are really similar in concept so I think it's fair to compare) aren't done either.
On the point of "network of plots", I don't think Martin should get that point before actually resolving it, plotting is only half of the cake, the show had that too, but if you later need to resort deus ex machina, irrationally action characters, characters going 180 on their character, etc. you basically tangle yourself up, which imo isn't a plus (and I guess one of the reasons Winds and Dream aren't out).
a year later and it still isn't, and possibly might never be...
I doubt Martin will live long enough to finish it.
Reads title and thinks, 'this is how you start wars'.
giovanni same like daniel you‘re bold today
giovanni my exact thoughts
Unless you leave it at a draw and no one gets angry.
@@ducovanderwoude6971, there would still be war since neither side would be willing accept a tie, especially if they felt the points were not awarded properly.
@@jayt9608 Fuck You All The Haters!!!! If it wash't Lord of the Rings and all of the rest of Middle Earth (Arda) Books and Stories such as Silmarilion or the Fall of Gondolin all the rest of Fantasy wouldh't exist!!!! The same goes for Narnia Chronicles, the Prydain Chronicles and the Shannara Chronicles cause if it wash't even these book series and the worlds and characters and adventures in these books then we wouldh't have many more fantasy at all!!!! A Song of Ice and Fire big turd in the wind in many places and points!!!!
I really do like ASoIaF's magic system. Uniquely for fantasy, it makes magic feel occult and weird. You can tell Martin was a horror writer. It makes perfect sense why most people would be scared of and distrustful toward magic.
What "system"? When has he ever explained, in text, how any of the magic works?
@@midgetwthahacksaw you don't explain the mechanics of a soft magic system. That being said, there are details we know.
- Fire magic is intrinsically linked to the presence of dragons. For a century, fire magic had stopped working in the West because no dragons remained, but it still functioned in the far east because Asshai has wild dragons.
- Skinchangers establish a mental bond to an animal, after which they can enter the creature's mind. When skinchangers die, they enter one of their bonded creatures. When greenseers die, they enter the weirwood trees.
- Strong magic requires blood sacrifice. The First Men used to execute prisoners in from of weirwoods, and Ned Stark cleaned the blood from his sword in front of a weirwood. The Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" describe how to use Valyrian magic.
ArmorFrog Entertainment also there is a constant war between unknown forces more powerful than the others and millisandres god.
And I think the power disparity that let ice return was the fact that there was no fire presence. But since Dany got them back there will be a big showdown. It will end the world on leave it in shambles because one of these powers must die.
@@MM-xm5vx it seems the powers of Ice and Fire both must die because both have the potential to destroy the world. The Long Night was death by Ice. The Doom of Valyria was death by Fire.
There is a LOT more magic going on than you first think. You think north of the wall, red priest and the quarth warlocks are basically all the magic in the books, just a couple chapters per book, just enough to keep you guessing and wanting more. Until you read the books carefully for the third time and you realize magic is happening like every other chapter, even in the Hedge Knight! It's just incredibly subtle, unlike most magic systems where it is vibrant and flashy, martins magic is so subtle that you won't even notice it until you pay very close attention.
One of the themes I got from Lord of the Rings is that even the smallest person in the world can make a big difference.
Tyrion Lannister?
@@LonleyBoy1105 I guess it applies to both, doesn't it?
@Outrageous Accent! Varys?
Petyr ?
Also present in A Song of Ice and Fire.
*me, standing on the sidelines*
"Fight! Fight! Fight!"
A man of culture
So It would seem
"The chair! Give 'em the chair!"
The Silmarillion definitely reads like a history book.
Heh. So does Fire and Blood.
I think Fire and blood its like more a succession of historical events. Silmarilion is more mithological and interconnected because themes and characterers ressonates through the ages
Wingfoot it reads like the bible
@@playermartin286 Or any other mythology.
@@stephenpetersen1945 Fire and Blood is specifically in the style of medieval chronicles, and has an in universe writer who is an unreliable narrator etc. . The Silmarillion is much more like the Bible - it begins with creation. They aren't really meant to be compared.
The genius of LoTR’s plot is how simple it is. It’s a simple plot in this grand world, with an intricate story, which is why it works so well. Tolkien always knew how to balance simplicity with complexity, answers with mysteries.
Lord of the rings was the first fantasy book I ever read and always remains my favourite book of all time.
The fact that there are so many series that I feel comfortable even comparing to LotR nowadays is a testament to how well the fantasy genre has evolved and proof that it is currently in its golden age.
good point
Lord of the Rings is not a series.
@@wendymotogirl en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_(TV_series)
it isn't?
@@deg1studios lotr series will bes shit they will ruin it it will not be as GoT except the ending
And we will not get to see the same aragorn or Frodo or Gandalf or Sam or Legolas or gimli or theoden or etc..
fair point.
I agree with everything except for readability. I dont know why, but I have never struggled to read Tolkien, I find his descriptions fascinating and Im never bored at any point of the story, I fly through the books. I know this is not a common opinion, as far as I know only my sister agrees with me, but because of that, for me Tolkien is the winner :D
I read them when I was in elementary school, and it set a high bar for other books. Wheel of Time so far for me is very easy to read, even the slog, and other books seem almost too simple in their pros. I definitely agree here.
I feel exactly the same. Tolkien just grabs my interest and never lets off, even his other works like Children of Hurin and the Legend of S&G.. Whereas in series with simpler writing I find myself constantly bored and distracted, the levels of immersion are also much lower... wheel of time, for example, was absolute torture for me to read.
I agree with you. His descriptions is the main reason I love his works
It really is subjective. I read a lot of adult books when I was young, and when I read A Song of Ice and Fire I just devoured it-didn’t have a problem whatsoever. But I’ve never read the Lord of the Rings, or the Hobbit. I tried to read it at twelve (my dad actually offered to pay me to read them) and I just couldn’t get into it. I think I could read it, but it was just so hard to find anything to latch on to. I’d like to try it again someday, though memories of the writing style and my feelings reading the first few chapters keep deterring em.
@@samkathryn4825
I have experienced that feeling when I started reading lotr. But I obliged myself to read the first chapter and I Dare say it's the best decision ever 😅 I swear it gets amazing the further you delve in.
These comments are actually a lot more civil than I thought they were going to be lol. Nice to see nerds getting along instead of being at each other's throats! I personally like LOTR more, but then again I've only read the first book in the Song of Ice and Fire series (which I am going to remedy soon) and LOTR is just kinda nostalgic for me. That being said, I completely agree with every one of Daniel's points.
If anyone watching this has not, for some reason, watched Epic Rap Battles of History: George R.R. Martin vs J.R.R. Tolkien, do that right now!
...After you're done watching this video, of course 😋
It's fucking hilarious. Watched at least ten times. Time for another
I've seen it like a 100 times, so smart and funny
I love it... George stole his R.R... lol
@@salserio6727 I lost it, that was the best line! 😂
“Your sh*ts sub par! You even stole my RR!”
I find LoTR less easy to read, as it really seems it is written as though it should be read to you by your grandfather.
my dad read the hobbit and the lord of the rings out loud to me and my siblings, and after reading them myself, I can confidently say that it is a far more enjoyable experience listening to LotR than reading it
And Tolkien. Didn’t use the word C#*T.
Tolkien is easy to read if your vocabulary is complex. At first, it's difficult to understand but you get used to it.
@@winnym6806 I am actually reading them currently and that is very true
@@briansf7012 that has nothing to do with it
"Uses magic only as a crutch to progress his plot, as some people do"
I think we all know who you're talking about, Daniel.
Martin Wold Stavrum oh darn. I am too new to this channel so I am clueless. Guess I will have to watch every episode from the first.
@@SatiaRenee me too. Can't anybody answer the clue?
I think I figured it out on my own. I can think of one series, although I only read the first, that has a weak use of magic. Sword of Truth. I suffered through the first book and couldn’t believe anyone would want to read more.
Someone please tell me I am right because I would hate to think there is another crappy series out there.
I believe you've got it, certainly the most obvious example of that (greatly enjoyed Daniel's review of Goodkind)
@@heedlessthievery Nah, I am pretty sure he is talking about Sanderson. Dani clearly hates how Brandon handles, develops and introduces magic into his books
100% LotR. I love that series. My kids nursery was even Tolkien themed, complete with a painted tree of Gondor on the wall and a stylized version of Bilbo's door on his crib. Once he's out of the room to make way for the incoming child, I'll add a few more things to it.
I just found out my 25 year old daughter is pregnant, she was raised on Tolkien and wants to call the baby Arwen if it is a girl, decorating the nursery Tolkien style is a wonderful idea! ❤
@@angelalever1272 That's such a beautiful name inspiration
@@angelalever1272 Elvish names are surely the way to go if you care for beauty!
Lord of the Rings is not a series.
14:05
I had the same problem, i'm not a naitve english speaker so reading LOTR was a very hard work for 15 years old me, the arabic translation was so bad and illogical that they translated some kind of animal to what literally means " iraqi duck"
IRAQ IN LOTR!!
So i had to read the english one and it was a very hard and beautiful trip, i think about reading it again to see how my english has improved.
Read arabic ASOIAF, amazing translation by Hesham Fahmy..
honestly LOTR isn't an easy read for a native speaker, it's really impressive you persevered like that.
Although ASOIAF is my personal favourite, I totally agree in Daniel's distribution of points and even that final one.
Same!
@@ClaireYunFarronXIII Chad Summerchild sends his regards.
My personal favorite is Lord of the Rings, but I also agree.
"Gee willikers, let's pick up the Silmarillion!" 😂😂 I have actually done this on rainy afternoons! I agree on Martin getting the point for character, but ultimately I think Middle-earth will have more staying power. It's already lasted 70 some years and without it ASoIaF wouldn't exist.
Josephine Kelly yeah the pattern looks to be lord of the rings is here to stay
Same. I pick up the silmarillion all the time. #feanordidnothingwrong
@@kenobi5230 oh, I'm sure you do, my lord. #mandosaintbuyingittho #swanboats
It is calming to know I still have some loyal elves under my command. They seem to have grown “few” in these days of late.
#mandoscanjumpofftaniquetilforallicare
Josephine Kelly yeah Sam Gamgee came before Sam Tarley and Smaug before Dany’s 3 dragons.
Malazan vs The Wheel of Time
Stormlight vs Dark Tower
He hasn’t read all of the Malazan to make that comparison.
Yuuup
I guess I'm going to have to check out Malazan if it can realistically be compared to WoT
Malazan pretty easily imo
Tolkien reads like Poetry. It's absolutely beautiful. His writing style is instrumental to making his storys so beautiful and magical
Both Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire hold a dear place in my heart, but I think that they can’t necessarily be compared. I think Lord of the Rings being considered the standard or the grandfather of fantasy kind of makes it hard to verse it with other stories. Both are really great in my opinion; Tolkien set the standard for epic fantasy and crafted a beautiful story and world that just so awesome, while Martin has deviated a lot from those standards and seems so realistic. Both are fantastic in their own way, and I never get tired of reading them or seeing other people who love it just as much talk about it.
Totally agree...love the video, but I couldn't help but think apples and oranges. Both are great in their own right.
I don't understand comparisons except dragons, world map and lots of characters. I love both, of course Tolkien is always going to be better, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating other fantasy writers.
they can be compared actually
Anything can be compared. The similarities and dissimilarities you may find are another matter
@@winnym6806 Why would Tolkien obviously be better? Better is an entirely subjective matter without putting up very specific parameters for people to judge on, and even when trying to put up some objective parameters it will be very hard to argue that Tolkien did everything better than anyone.
Tolkien is the most influential, but that's not at all synonymous with better.
I will always go for Tolkien, his work has had such a profound affect on my life, it is the first fantasy series I read as a child, I enjoyed song of ice and fire but it felt harsh an brash compared to Tolkiens writing, when I read LotR it is almost ethereal and the themes are still so relevant to day. Did the people you spoke to enjoy the films, I wonder if different mediums can reach fantasy fans than the books can not? I have visited Tolkiens grave several times now, it is so beautiful and there is this air of all encompassing magic. I do sit and cry next to his grave, thank you Tolkien, and I wish everyone one of your subscribers ' Magic". which I still believe can be found in this world if you know where to look!
That bit with the lights in the beginning... I think that officially makes you my favorite TH-camr. It was so goddamn stupid that I couldn't help but love it.
I love the Silmarillion! I tend to like it slightly more than LotR, both being my favourite books. I'm 23 years old, first read Tolkien at 13, and it has changed me and my life! I don't really care much for fantasy after the 1990s, otherwise.
something i like about the contrasting themes and magic systems in Lotr and Asoiaf is that they're kinda opposite in a way: Lotr deals a lot with the death of magic, while in Asoiaf magic seems to return after having been gone for a long time
Martin fans:
SONG OF ICE AND FIRE!
Tolkien fans:
LORD OF THE RINGS
Me:
Don Quixote de la Mancha...
Recuerdo que nos obligaron a leer el Quijote en el colegio, un buen libro pero preferiría que nos obligaran a leer el Señor de los Anillos, pónganse las pilas profes
@@maurodv8220
Hijo, entiendo tu sentimiento, pero Don Quijote es un libro mucho más importante en todo sentido, culturalmente hablando.
@@elgranlugus7267 Completamente de acuerdo contigo, pero recuerdo a mi profe glorificar al Quijote como la segunda venida de Cristo y eso me emocionó mucho! Lo termino de leer y lo encuentro bueno y algo cómico pero tampoco fue para tanto, disfruté más el SDLA (además no siento que podamos comparar al Quijote con ESDLA como literatura de fantasía)
@@maurodv8220
Ah, en eso sí.
No niego que muchas personas ponen a Don Quijote como en un estante de oro.
@@maurodv8220En cuál asignatura te obligaron a leerlo? A mi en Español/Literatura española y apuesto que a la gran mayoría también, es por eso que los profes no pueden "ponerse las pilas" y obligarte a leer ESDLA, ya que esa es literatura inglesa, obvio que leerías una traducción, pero la esencia y el sentido original del autor se pierde mucho en las traducciones. El Quijote se lee a fuerza en todo el mundo hispanohablante por obvias razones, es la mayor obra en nuestro idioma.
Lo contrario para el mundo anglosajón, a ellos los obligan a leer Shakespeare y Tolkien porque son los máximos exponentes de su idioma y muy pocos de ellos conocen o han leído El Quijote.
Listening to Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion on audio book, make them a lot more enjoyable, something about listening to that older way of writing is very pleasing......Also I love the Silmarillion a lot more then the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings
As much as I want to clap back on LOTR readability I must admit that I slogged through Fellowship my senior year of high school and didn't return to it until after I graduated college five years later. Now It's my favorite series of all time. I've read through it twice and eagerly want to revisit it again if I can ever find a break in my TBR.
The fact that is a tie while one of the stories is only half done really says something.
I get why ASOIAF gets the point for characters. When someone asked me who my favorite character in the series is, I started off with a couple of characters, but ended naming maybe 7 characters.
Only 7?
ASOIAF (and the TV series) are really some of the most compelling series to talk to people about, mostly because of the characters. It's always interesting to find out which characters people like the most and how people often have complete opposite lists.
1 Bronn
2 Tyrion
3 Jaime
4 The Hound
5 Arya
6 Tormund
7 Jaqen
is these 7 your picks or are all wrong?
@What ? Littlefinger is one of my favourites, but Robb is meh. Nice picks.
@@jarrilaurila You are a show-watcher, right? Because Bronn's role in the books is pretty small. In the Show they hiped him up.
Me before the video: you fool what are you doing?
Me after the video: Not bad. You narrowly avoided war
This is the video I needed today! Love lotr so I’m biased lol. I also love the silm and I’m the guy that would pick it up on a rainy Sunday afternoon. It would be awesome if you could do a Stormlight Archive versus mistborn battle. I know Stormlight isn’t finished but I think it would be interesting.
I much prefer A Song of Ice and Fire over any other fantasy series. The books are just amazing. Their foreshadowing, great history and huge lore, depth of character and the vast amount of them in the series just makes it seem so epic for me. The White Walkers, Dany and her dragons, Euron trying to literally become a god, all the other lovecraftian races and a mysterious magic system. This just resonates with me, and will always be my favourite book series of all time.
Agree on all points. I remember buying the LOTR books and the cashier was a huge fan and was excited for me to read them. I didn't have the heart to tell her next time that I barely finished The Fellowship. The prologue was my first indicator that the book may not be for me. Love the films and thus the story but I'm character driven, not world. ASoIaF got in my head straight away. The night I started it, I dreamt of walking the wall, it was easy to read and follow and juicy with character and plot. Each to their own.
I liked GoTs but really, no contest for me, LotRs is the standard for Fantasy
Honestly, I thought you were about to give the point for characters to LOTR when you warned about your unpopular opinion on that one. I thought that ASOIAF was the obvious choice? Not because LOTRs characters are bad, but it's just really well done in ASOIAF...
I agree on all points with you, it's hard to compare these two, because they intend to do different things and do each of them very well. Great video!
Yeah when it comes to character depth, GRRM wins no question..because he writes realistic, morally grey characters. Tolkiens characters are simple, but they are meant to be that way. They are often what we aim to be as humans...GRRM writes who we really are, the dark realities and how lofty ideals can often get you killed.
Shawn Boudreau that is there biggest difference especially in magic. George it’s dark and uncontrollable. Tolkien it’s used for black and white.
Very good video and good points. At first I was disappointed you went with a tie, but after thinking about it, it does make sense. Both do things very distinctly their own way.
Comparing high fantasy to low fantasy is a bit difficult for me as the two genres have such different feels to them. It's kinda like comparing Nine Inch Nails to Pink Floyd. While both are rock they are very different kinds of rock. That being said, what Tolkien was able to accomplish with TLOTR might never be surpassed. The world, number of races, extremely long history, overall story, languages and mythology he himself created are all stuff of legend which will never be forgotten. His style of writing and storytelling is also far beyond anything I've ever read. Reading TLOTR is mesmerizing in a way I've never experienced before. When you pick up a book and purposefully read it very slowly because it's MORE enjoyable that way you know you've got something truly special in your hands. He had the ability to say more in a few lines than most authors can say in a few pages.
That being said ASOIAF is incredible. Probably the best low fantasy ever created. The amount of detail in Martin's books is beyond measure and his characters are so fleshed out it's mindblowing. The dark atmosphere of his world also has a very realistic and captivating feel to it. Every time I picked-up one of his books the atmosphere around me instantly changed. It was like everything around me became a bit gloomier. There were some pacing issues with the series thus far. While reading them I would occasionally get to long stretches I had to force myself to get through before things picked-up again. It wasn't too often but it did happen. Sometimes for quite a while. Especially in books 4 and 5. That's something you don't need to worry about with TLOTR. The two series are just so completely dissimilar though that it's just difficult for me to hold them up against each other. The style of storytelling, atmosphere, overall length and pacing, type of story (political low fantasy vs apocalyptic high fantasy) are all just very different. If they were both in the same genre of fantasy it would make much more sense to me.
Please don't take offense. I love your channel and think you have great taste when it comes to fantasy. You personally turned me on to Brandon Sanderson and changed my life as a reader and I am greatly appreciative for that. (GREATLY) Keep up the good work my friend.
ASOIAF Is high fantasy because martin created his own world. Low fantasy is magic witch is in our world like Harry Potter. Lotr and ASOIAF are both high fantasy. It has nothing to do with magic.
@@sabakka-e5u not according to TV tropes, also harry potter is urban fantasy. I feel Daniel Greene has weird definitions for genre only he uses, especially in terms of fantasy.
"high fantasy" has two very different definitions, and should therefore never be used to describe anything. You have the "high fantasy vs low fantasy" that's basically Epic vs Heroic fantasy (LotR being High, Conan being Low). And then from a completely different critical tradition you have the concept that "high fantasy" means its own world while "low fantasy" is set in our world.
High/low should just not be used. Use Epic fantasy, Heroic fantasy, secondary world, portal fantasy as needed.
High fantasy means lots of fantasy elements.
Low fantasy means a few fantasy elements.
It's not that difficult.
@@separator94 but it doesn't. It also means another world, while low fantasy means our world. Harry Potter is often called low fantasy.
ASoIaF is the one series I managed to be completely hooked on.
When I was reading the books everything I talked about was somehow related.
I really like LotR it was awesome but I'm not nearly as invested into it as I am into ASoIaF.
Martin just created a full damn WORLD and I cant get enough of that. Every little political detail, every character every map it just fascinates me like nothing else ever does.
The map is amazing too imo!
Not a hard choice for me :D
Exact same for me.
Tolkien's world if far, FAR more intricate and detailed. I've read both many times.
@@brooksboy78 I disagree.
Also i feel like Martin's character work and their interactions are much more interesting and subtle.
LotR is great in worldbuilding but aSoIaF suits my taste better.
@@dusk5121
Clearly you like politics, i guess we are very different...
@@athalonARC asoiaf is all about political intrigue
Each fantasy has its great parts and it's hold backs, I like how in ASoIaF magic is a combination of tricks, illusions, human sacrifice, hive minds, skin wearing and commits. It shows that magic isn't all one thing its partly a show for religion or coin, or to create immortality and even becoming a god.
Lord of the rings magic is all over the place there are no guide lines for what someone can or cannot do, and rings grant you power but different for each race, the elves have healing and nurturing powers, while men have rings for destruction, manipulation and power, all bending to the will of the dark lord, Saruman makes a ring for himself to increase his power, and hes already great at manipulating people and giving council, which he uses to change good things to evil deeds.
ASoIaF in one hand is just a great read, you can see historical inspiration in alot of the characters and houses and places, but the world map itself is so unimaginative I want to rip my hair out, for Westeross you take the British isles flip it that's the north, and lower westeros is ireland upside down, the Iron Islands are the three islands off of the Jutland Penninsula essos, is the west coast of Italy, but it continues for miles west until you get to the grey wastes, the shadow mountians of mordor( I mean Ashia by the shadow) Valyria is an ancient map of Greece
The map made by Christopher Tolkien looks great I don't see many things that are just real places but inverted in some way. in fact, there are several references to Lord of the rings in Westeros, in the north by the Rills you see the barrowlands.
A lot of the gods in ASoIaF are taken of both inspiration from real-world religions predominantly Christianity Azor Ahai being Brutus and Nissa Nissa as Jesus. the Drowned God is a reference to baptisms in the Christian religion while drawing heavily from the cult of Dagon, and the words of house grey joy are a play on H.P.Lovecrafts "What is dead may never lie, and in strange eons, even death may die" the red god Rhlor is a play on words to the city in which Cthulu lyes in deathless sleep, and in the city of ashia there is the church of starry wisdom which is not even a play on words or referenced where a loose connection could be drawn, but the exact name of the cult in the Cthulu mythos, of Nyarlathotep, and beyond it deeper in the shadow is a gate where r'hllor resides until the ending of the world, which is another Cthulu reference. Trios is a reference to Catholicism, the seven-pointed star is the seven archangels(also Sept which is the churches for the religion translates from Latin meaning seven), Lightbringer is a reference to the warrior angel Alexander, with his flaming sword, or to Lucifer, because Lightbringer means lucifer. the obscure religion of the Sheperd worshiped by the peaceful people to the far east of Essos, is a reference to Jesus.
There has also been many hints in the novels that the gods are one, the seven are considered the seven aspects of one god, R'hllor is one ("good") god against another, the Drowned god is one, which leads me to think its going to be George RR Martin ripping off Roman History, for Aurelian stating that Sol Invictus is all gods combined into one, with Constantine later painting a symbol on all the shields of his men that united the pagan gods, the Christian god and Sol Invictus, and later when he made the currency for his empire it was on one side the Chi Rho and Sol Invictus on the other.
Theory Time:
My thoughts are Jon in his vision in a clash of kings when he sees not an army but a people united in one cause, that might have been Mance raiders army, but I think it was an army of all peoples standing against the white walkers, because when he first gets that vision he hears Bran's voice in a warewood and the quest he was going on with the half hand, was basically so the watch could have a man on the inside of the army, and figure out their plan.
The watch has known that the villages have been abandoned and that they are gathering to the king in the north, so why would Bran show Jon, something that the watch already knows about, unless he's showing him something in the future, this is the same book where Jon follows ghost into the woods where he leads him to where one of the children of the forest plants a strange horn along with obsidian daggers. When you start to look at the wolves and the dreams, the starks have its clear the wolves were given to them for a purpose so the children could control them or be controlled by them, when Jon first decides to join the watch he gets drunk and his wolf is beside him the whole time when he claims to want to join the watch, when Tyrion walks into the court the wolves growl and attack him, Arya's dog starts making a massive wolf army terrorizing the country, Robs wolf warns him about the Freys before the wedding.
clearly, the Children or Bloodraven is influencing or attempting to play the game of thrones, in the leaked Mercy chapter for the winds of Winter Arya is sent to be part of a play for the faceless men, and the play is about Tyrion (which is somewhat of a rip off of Shakespeare's Richard III, but in the play Tyrion makes a deal with the stranger which is a black goatman, to kill King Robert. and then the demon possesses a bore and kills the king, now I may be reading to much into this, but Roberts death was not covered well by the books, and maybe blood raven or some powerful warg possessed the bore and killed the king, but a lot of attention is placed on the lannisters especially Lancil for killing the king, but remember all he did, was get the king drunk, which is a weird way of assassinating someone, all be it if they are also hunting, did he expect to find a bore when they were hunting?
how the hell Rhllor and Azor Ahai similar to Christianity or Jesus or Brutus? Rhllor and Azor Ahai completely similar to Zoroastrianism irl... in Zoroastrianism there is Ahura Mazda which is basically means lord of light (Rhllor in ASOIAF) and Ahriman lord of darkness (Others/Lord of Darkness in ASOIAF) so Martin didnt ripped from Roman history he got it from Iranic history many of your theories etc are false even Romans got some god ideas from Iranic people for example Roman soldiers believed in Mithras which is another Iranic god called Mithra (btw Mithra is like Ahura Mazda both of them lord of light)
What in the world does Brutus have to do with Jesus? Brutus was one of Caesar’s assassins, and died on his own sword after being defeated by Octavian 42 years before Jesus was even born. Brutus has no association with any religion.
@@QualityPen sorry I meant to say Judas.
In regards to your Silmarillion comment, I highly recommend listening to the audiobook. It's beautifully narrated and makes the 'reading' experience so much better.
I think I love Tolkien's works too much to recognise any barrier in the readability anymore. I enjoy reading LOTR so much, and most of The Silmarillion as well, so I don't think I could even judge that anymore.. 😅
I much prefer LOTR. Asoiaf is still good tho.
RebelKnight it’s like here’s 2 things that are 10/10 pick one like how can you?
@@Trapsarentgay133 Well, i don´t think both are a 10/10, so thats why i can choose as you can clearly see.
@What ? I believe our names are conflicting sir...
@What ? Hello Mr What (lol)
It all comes down to that lovely word x) 'opinion.' I just MUCH more enjoy Tolkiens world than Georges. Mainly because of the lore and details surrounding it. (Im a big worldbuilding guy) Now, GRRM is a fine writer, no one can take that away from him. As you said, its more dark and the dialogue is better than lotr, and i agree.
But if i wanna read something a lot darker than lord of the rings, i just read Tolkiens other works like the Silmarillion; which i find much more sad and gritty than asoiaf.
There are a few reasons more to why i don't love Martins works nearly as much but i think this is enough.
Good day to you when you read this. Between if ur really into DARK fantasy, i recommend reading Malazan. It makes both lotr and asoiaf look like the hobbit :)
I personally disagree Becuase i like the polictal side a song of ice and fire can have at times
I disagree about Martin's writing style. I find it mesmerising. Really polished and enjoyable.
But Tolkien is just.... God (Tom Bombadil).
or Eru
I totally agree with you point for point. As far as magic goes in asoiaf, TWOW will have magic amped up to levels we haven't seen yet in the series. A Dream of Spring will be the death of that magic. I believe GRRM's work will be as highly regarded as Tolkien when it's all over. It will have staying power over time as well. Tolkien is probably more favored bc it is more kid-friendly. I think people who reread ASOIAF will find more and more reasons to reread again & again. There is just so much packed in there...
Coming out next week
@@krakentacos Year*
@@agent5866 next year
@@krakentacos * in spongebob* “3 years later” 🤖
Next year. I'm sure of it.
When you dont want to alienate part of your audience *This fence is very comfortable*
The truth is usually somwhere in the middle
eh. I'm a very big aSoIaF fan, but I went into this video fully expecting him to give LotR the win and wouldn't have felt alienated if he had.
Green Daniel: 17:27
The Hound: "Ah, come on, you cockless coward."
James Thomas asshole😂
SHOW Euron actually said that.
I started reading late in my life, so I started with classic literature and worked my way to other genres after that. And I must say, reading ASOIAF or LOTR is a cakewalk after something like Les Miserables, War and Peace or Crime and Punishment. Not necessary a method anyone can adopt, but for me it helped a lot.
Daniel (is it okay if i call you Daniel?) Could you cover some older Pre-tolkien stories?
I have found such stories fascinating, and was wondering if you could cover such stories as Conan the Barbarian (the short stories, very different from the film) by Robert E Howard, The John carter series (which i saw you owned) and perhaps king in yellow, who influenced Lovecraft
Also, i would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on Lord Dunsany, who inspired such writers as Tolkien, Le Guin, Gaiman, Lovecraft and others. It's a shame that his stories have faded into obscurity, and i think it would be interesting to see your take on it, good or ill. He does takes some getting used to, but his stories are well worth reading.
I quite liked the Conan books, read them a long time ago.
ASOIAF is just more my style, magic and fantasy elements in general are not as dominant as in LOTR. I just like that better.
So you dont like fantasy lol
@@dv96_dk I do like fantasy
Same I'm not really a magic guy
Whilst I find Martin's work easier to read. Full of twists and interesting relationships.
The sheer scale of LOTR, it's characters, lore & history just trump it for me.
I also think given the time that LOTR was written it was incredibly unique!
Luckily we live in a world where we can enjoy both!
Tolkien’s world building doesn’t describe food though🤷♂️
Lembas
Honeycakes?
Salted Pork?
Lembas?
Roasted Chicken?
Rabbit Stew?
Potatoes! Boil em Mash em Stick in the stew!
Meat Pies!?
@@ategabbysev2993
Don't forget mushrooms..... And cram.
What language do martins trees speak?
Sullivan Dmitry hope I can hit you with the pages👋 📖 instead of the spine lmao 😂
While I love what LotR did for fantasy and I enjoyed reading it, I don't think I'd read it again. I'm glad I did because I love seeing it's influences in the fantasy I read now, but Martin's work is more my style.
Also, "Gee willikers, let's read The Silmarillion!" Needs to be on a shirt. I'd wear it.
Oh I'd wear it erryday
Sign me up for that shirt as well 🤣
uncultured.. tolkien's writing is the a thing of beauty. can't get enough of it.
very epic, elegant, classy.
“And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.
From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
@@CoolAsianGuy You need to relax. 🙄
@@ClaireYunFarronXIII they are just apparently keen to hate on asoiaf without even needing a reason. It's truly sad, they give the rest of us Tolkien fans a bad rep and name. Since I've loved Lotrs, the hobbit, and Tolkien since childhood, that hasn't changed. Yet Asoiaf is brilliant too. Tolkien might have the grander prose ultimately. Yet Martin is more recent, started out in an entirely different genre in Scifi, and jumped to fantasy, and while Tolkien is indeed brilliant he doesn't capture and write out the beating of his character's hearts on the Page, the way that Martin does. It isn't even close. Tolkien understood just fine that people of small means and origins can achieve great things, but Martin knows this too. Also, Asoiaf is all about choices, that's the entire point. Human choices. Lotrs has thematic overlap in this regard also. They just show and observe it differently. Asoiaf is also an anti-war story, a story about human greatness and abject failure. You aren't supposed to find his characters invincible, or paragons of virtue. Instead they are simply people just like us, all striving, battling their inner demons and worse impulses, both winning and losing to various degrees. That is why Martin is untouchable when it comes to his characters. Both he and Tolkien, write the best and the worst aspects of humanity in equal measure. All with the intention of making entirely different points, and having distinctly different purposes in mind. That person being so short sighted about Asoiaf and selling short what it does so well, irritates me.
Cant argue with your take, they deserve a draw! ASoIaF will go down as a classic just like LOTR, someday, once its finally finished.. :)
I picked up LOTR at the age of 13 on a canal holiday in England. I devoured it, and I’m Norwegian.
For a better comparison, you should read the Memory, Sorrow, Thorn series by Tad Williams. George RR Martin said the series was one of the main inspirations for A Song of Ice and Fire
your videos are getting interesting day by day!
Love LOTR but ASOIAF is my favorite or all time. George is a great writer.
Loving the extra editing and the new office. I really hope going full time works out for you :)
I see Lord of the Rings as more of the "What is Fantasy as a genre?" series. They're the books you read to learn the rules of the genre so you can break them in your own writing.
Loved the 8-bit sound effects whenever a point is scored!
Daniel: "[GoT] doesn't use magic to blindly progress its plot like some people do."
Robert Jordan: "I am aware of Mr. Goodkind."
Hi Daniel,
Excellent video, and a big fan.
Personally, I've found Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' to be a more absorbing read, however as a story on the whole 'The Lord of the Rings' I prefer Lord of the Rings, I found 'Feast' and 'Dance' to not quite be of the same quality as the first three books, with the world expanding just a little too much (so much so that I worry that Martin won't be able to wrap up the story in just two more books).
I love the video, and I understand with all your points on both properties (I've never managed to get on with The Silmarillion, as much as I've wanted to).
Tolkien is probably easier for new readers as an audiobook than physically. I tried physically reading Tolkien and it was difficult but I loved the audiobook a lot and I think it brings you into the story more.
Reading LOTR was kind of a task....
Reading ASOIAF.... I DEVOURED it!
Depends on which style fits you best. I like the everyday, vivid writing style through the eyes of rather humanized characters. It brings the story to life to my taste.
Idk but ASOIAF always gets me in the mood for drinking hehe ... also I love GRRM's description of foods!
I am ridiculously biased in favor of LotR. Even though I've been reading them for the past 30-odd years and loving them, they reached a different level of sentimental value five years ago. My husband and I first became friends discussing the LotR books and first became a couple while watching the extended versions of all the movies. While it wasn't the first viewing for either of us (by a long shot), it was our first viewing together. Also, our wedding was Middle-Earth themed. Everything from the clothing (my mother is an amazing seamstress, thanks Mom) to the decorations to the food. Hell, even our wedding bands have a Leaves of Lorien motif twining the middle. And yes, it was a spectacularly perfect day all around.
The Silmarillion reads like a history book, and I think that’s deliberate.
Tolkien stands alone just for the Hobbits. If his books were destroyed in a dark age people would know what a Hobbit is.
GoT is a political thriller, LoTR is mythology
Exactly.
@@acuerdox ASOIAF
I mostly agree with you however I would give the setting point to LotR, since in my opinion there is no setting which felt so fantastical but still so real
I can only comment on LotR, and while I think the awarding of points was reasonable, an interesting thing to consider is how differently The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and other of Tolkeins works like the Silmarillion feel to read. The tone and style is very different between them, which I think adds difficulty to awarding the readability point.
I didn't start reading ASoIaF until after GoT season 2. I fully enjoyed GoT through season 4, and overall enjoyed season 5, but that's when the big problems became evident. I enjoyed the novels, but I feel they are a bit bloated. There a quite a few side plots and minor characters which I feel could have been omitted. This is a bigger problem for me in books 4 and 5.
I clicked the like button after I saw the lights
I kinda like the poems in LOTR, I actually find it impressive. Then again, I'm not that well-versed in poems...
A draw?! Boo!
But seriously, I wouldn't know how to parse this... I'd almost want to add extra categories as I don't fully disagree with your assessments on the given categories, but they feel lacking in what makes these two series so important to me...
ASoIaF gets me on the pragmatic "this is the cruel reality of things and how you have to deal with it" side of things, while LotR gets me on the transcendent "the cruelty of reality is here, but the counterpoint is that there are greater mysteries and wonders that surpass that cruelty and give a glimmer of hope"... And I don't know how to quantify that aspect of LotR, but I know it's what makes it easier to just revisit the world and reread the books for enjoyment over and over. Meanwhile rereading ASoIaF is enjoyable, but you have to brace yourself for the roller coaster of pain inherent to the story...
I love both series but for me the readability point goes to lotr. I can pickup lotr and reread it completely with joy, yet when I want to reread asoiaf I never get to the 'end'...
The question that everyone is dying to know... will there ever be an end?
I tried re-reading lotr recently. I last read it when I was like 12, yet 6 years later, I didn't have the motivation to get it done this time. Meanwhile, I've know asoiaf for 2 and a half years, and I already read the first three five times and the last two four. So yeah...
Lmfao when you mentioned readability I chuckled many times. Definitely how I felt at 7 years old when I picked up the LotR book and I was just like “nope no, I’m okay. The movies are good enough for now. Ill catch up when I can read English gooder.”
I read LotR as a teenager before the movies and one the reasons I loved the movies so much is because I repeatedly felt like "oh so this is what Tolkien was describing for five pages".
My mom would read LoTR and The Hobbit to me before bed as a child, as a teen I tried to read them myself and almost put them back down lmao.
I was ready to go to war & fight tooth and nail for LoTR at the start of this...then by the end I just got sad again that GoT the show failed its source material so spectacularly.
Tolkien prose contains some of the best lines and is so undeniably...epic and grand, I actually never had a problem with it, so I personally never saw it as difficult to read :).
"All about the hills the hosts of Mordor raged. The Captains of the West were foundering in a gathering sea. The sun gleamed red, and under the wings of the Nazgul the shadows of death fell dark upon the earth. Aragorn stood beneath his banner, silent and stern, as one lost in thought of things long past or far away; but his eyes gleamed like stars that shine the brighter as the night deepens. Upon the hill-top stood Gandalf, and he was white and cold and no shadow fell on him. The onslaught of Mordor broke like a wave on the beleaguered hills, voices roaring like a tide amid the wreck and crash of arms.
As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandalf stirred; and he turned, looking back north where the skies were pale and clear. Then he lifted up his hands and cried in a loud voice ringing above the din: The Eagles are coming! And many voices answered crying: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming! The hosts of Mordor looked up and wondered what this sign might mean.
There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale.
But the Nazgul turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."
Quite epic moment indeed :) hehe, and concerning the themes of the story, Lotr has mulitple layers, Tolkien himself wrote: “Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.”
Idk, I always found Tolkien easy to read and so enjoyable that it reads itself. The Silmarillion I actually read like 10 times and every time I read it, it's always a pleasant and amazing experience. To me, it is definitely a rainy Saturday kinda vibe, so it's strange to see people saying Tolkien is hard to read.
Tolkien was so influential in fantasy I rarely even feel the need to mention him as an influence because it is obvious.
15:25 - Mickey Mouse possessed Daniel and is really excited to read the Silmarillion
My dude, you've gotten so much better with your editing. Definite improvement from your earlier videos.
Much as I loved A Song of Ice & Fire (and I've loved it since long before the TV series) it's hard for anything to fight with "The book of the 20th century"!
i love the lord of the rings because it has languages that are rich and complex that influences the mythology and story telling. as a languages nerd that i am wholeheartedly obsessed with, i think that the lord of the rings blows the Song of Ice and Fire in this respect
Even though I am not a big fan of Tolkien nor of Martin but why I think Lotr is and should be praised that much is because Asoiaf shows how we, as people, are. however Lotr shows how we, as humans, should be.
Good idea. First time I've heard it. 👍👍 Thats why without Morgoth or Sauron as villainy, Tolkien couldnt finish the 'New Shadow' as the beginning of Dagor Dagorath. For him, human is not an inherent evil. There must be a reason. Thats why, in middle earth there is no religion. If you are good, then you do good. If you are evil, then you do evil things. That should be one of the moral lesson of the story.
One of Tolkien's goals was to create a mythology for England-- he was writing in an era when nationalism was very important. Scandinavia had mythology, Germany had mythology, but what about England.
I recommend two critics who wrote about Tolkien-- Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger. They'll point you at themes you may not have thought about, like how Tolkien used the Baggins'-- relatively modern people-- to ease the reader into a heroic time, or the weirdness about time-- dreams and prophecy and elves-- in LOTR.
One more category for rating: emotional range. Tolkien runs from joy to horror, while Martin stays at the dark end mostly. We can hope that things get better in A Dream of Spring, but it hasn't been written yet.
I give the character point to ASOIAF because his women (and girl) characters are as realized as the men characters, which is simply not true of LOTR.
I beg to disagree. Dont you hear Eowyn, the grandmother of all the female action heroin? As Galadriel also as the most powerful elf in middle earth???🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
I can't believe you didn't give the point for writing style to LOTR. And I like ASOIAF's style. Tolkien's use of language is some of the best there is; I don't think accessibility for casual readers is a very important factor when judging prose.
Tolkein has books written about his theming, for heaven's sake! It would have been a travesty for that point to go to LoIaF
Lotr and asoiaf : Choose me.
Me : Two is company, Three is party. Come on both of you. Lol.
With The Lord Of The Rings, I had to force myself to pick it up
With A Song Of Ice And Fire, I had to force myself to put it down.
myth vs history. Children's book vs adult only book. master vs student.
The Wheel of Time vs The Stormlight Archive...or ASOIAF vs The First Law (awesome recommendation by the way)
Agree with most of your points and definitely going to have to wait for the end of ASOIAF to truly judge where it should stand amongst the fantasy greats :)
I enjoyed this video! Really well articulated, nice to see the reverence for both works, masterpieces that they are. My only point of contention (4 years later lol), is that I feel like if you compare main story to main story (not including the silmarillion) asoiaf takes the world building point by quite a wide margin
I am in the middle of first book of George R. R. Martin and it's fine. But I would be more excited about reading it if I knew he already published the ending. Or at least declared it written and soon to be published. That would motivate me. For now... I may finish the first book or I may not. We will see..
The section on readability was so different for me. I find Tolkien’s, and other classical writing styles, engaging because of the whimsy in the writing, whereas Martin’s writing style pulls me right out.
Yes!
I wish I could feel this way. I DIGESTED the Hobbit in middle school but whenever I tried and read anything else Tolkien, half the time it puts me to sleep. It is so dry. I have an easier time reading Martin's I world family history tome. The language is just so biblical and dry. So much of old literature I find to be like that. The way they wrote was just sleepmaking.
I have read ASOIAF 3 times and will re-read again if/when the next book comes out. I’ve tried and failed to re-read LotR. Loved the series and happy I read it, but I just can’t get through it again. So, for me, readability carries more weight than the rest.
Also, scoring at home, I had ASOIAF winning 6-1 with the only loss being magic. Martin also has a world book that is infinitely more readable than the Silmarillion (two if you count Fire and Blood)
Concerning the point of readability, the argument could certainly be made that the context of language at the time should be part of determining who gets the point. Martin’s readability is average or below average compared to his contemporaries, while Tolkien’s was superior compared to many, though certainly not all, of his contemporaries.