Luckily as a kid, my mom would always play these types of games first and she was one meticulous woman. She used grid paper and actually mapped things herself when the game had no maps so for the kid me, it made things so much smoother when i got to play. Ahh the good ol days of grinding.
What I miss about some of these old school dungeons is the feeling that you had to "prepare" for them. You just knew that a level was going to be hard, which meant you had to grind levels, buy the best equipment for all your party members, and stock up on healing items. In many cases there was no way to warp out of these dungeons, so you either had to push through them or die and retry. This gave a strong sense of satisfaction that you just don't feel in modern games since most of the time the dungeons are too easy, or you at least have some way to get out if things get rough. Out of all modern games I've played I would say Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 best capture the feeling of these old school dungeons (but with much better level design).
>But with much better level design Lost Izalith would like a word (half-kidding, first half of DS1 is Top 3 gaming experiences of all time for me, but you can tell the exact point where the budget ran out).
@@yaboi2500 EEEEEEEhhhhhh I wouldn't go that far. I haven't replayed in a while, but I remember being VERY unimpressed with DS2's level design and overall mechanics (mostly the fact that they nerfed dodge-rolling into the ground). It just felt weird. Plus, the bosses weren't nearly as memorable. Even in the second half of DS1, you still got some good stuff (Duke's, Nito's boss fight, Gwyn, Painted world). Even if the areas weren't as good, they were waaay more memorable than half of DS2's areas to me.
Locoattack 1 That’s the thing, though. DS2’s quality was mediocre all the way through. The second half of DS1 was such a drop in quality you wonder what the fuck happened.
Also you always had to watch every step you take cause every battle is draining your healing magics and potion, so you can't just walk out aimlessly and you also need to choose careful the paths you take.
This Rhone Cave wrecked me. Imagine you had to through this back at 90s when there is no internet or guide. You had to in and out to draw your own map.
I just want you to know that any love for Crystalis is aces in my book. Goa Fortress may be the dungeon of ultimate sadism, but the fact it appeared shows me the love for this game endures. Also: Love hearing the Baya Malay theme. Phantasy Star was one of my VERY first RPGs, ever (I had an SMS before a NES). And that particular dungeon theme is (IMO) the most memorable track in it. Lastly, the moment I started this video, I knew exactly what I wanted to see as number one.... unfortunately, you place it as #2 (In my defense, I didn't play FF3 until its DS release). The Road to Rhone stands in my memory as the greatest dungeon slog of all time. It was horrible getting there, it was abysmal trudging through it, and then you had to trek even farther afterward before you were anywhere safe! In a game which, itself, is probably the most difficult of all 8-bit RPGs I played, that cave is an unnatural abomination. The ONLY fondness I have for it is that I can say I beat it. A well-done video overall. Lots of nostalgic memories.
Oh, gawd, FF III, the final dungeon that still lives in my nightmares decades later. Whenever my D&D players get out of line, I start taking inspiration from early Final Fantasy games. Fun and engaging, but brutal when you're trying and DEADLY to the inattentive...
I haven't actually played FF14 (real life tends to take too much time from me to accommodate video games any more, alas) but the series as a whole has some crazy dungeons.
I feel like the worst thing about that one is all the copycats who thought "oh, yeah, that's the perfect epic ending sequence for an RPG!" I recall Albert Odyssey being similar, though obviously not nearly as bad.
Every dungeon in every D&D campaign I've run has had something inspired by FF in it. They really put a good spin on the RPG format and I'm glad they took so much from D&D that it's obvious if you look.
@@endymallorn definitely. they borrowed heavily from D&D which turned around and started borrowing heavily right back. a truly symbiotic relationship :)
before I started watching this I said "PATH TO RHONE" and sure enough you included it...and totally agree on Duncan's Factory...I've stopped playing many-a-time there too! Great job, man!
dave undersells how awful the crystal tower in FF3 (sylx tower in the NES version) truly is. No my friends, the crystal tower gets WAYYY worse. First of all, it houses the Labyrinth of Earth (and the Earth Crystal is literally in the center of the first hallway 4Head), which is then proceeded by the final opportunity to SAVE. Then you are thrust into a series of dungeons (as dave said) BUT YOU CANNOT SAVE IN THE MIDDLE OF ANY OF THEM. You fight tough bosses, THEN proceed to take on the big bad of the main story, Cloud of Darkness appears and kicks your ass, THEN you have to go through the world of Darkness and kill the 4 chosen heroes of darkness and THEN can you move on the final final boss which is hard as balls (unless you grind and even then she can just laser you to death). All that. Without saving. Without a single game over, its an iron man TEST for the most hardened of veterans and there is no mercy. Oh and by the way. I mentioned getting the Earth Crystal RIGHT BEFORE entering the final dungeon in the game. Youre gonna be GRINDING. A LOT. On the upside, the crystal tower has one of the BEST soundtracks in gaming, PERIOD. I highly recommend it if you want a good kick of the ol´ epic sauce.
At least you're able to exit and save (and grind some more) after Eureka... the point of no return being a whole dungeon after the save opportunity is a dick move, since there's a whole other dungeon after that with the six mandatory bosses. A modern game would put the point of no return/final save point after the Dark Heroes, or just make the six bosses a gauntlet with no additional dungeon. I did beat it on the DS, but boy is it a rough battle to beat this place...
The "boss" at the end of the Marsh Cave in Final Fantasy were the WIZARD enemies. They have no instant death attack, although at that level they do hit like a truck. You're thinking of the later SORCERER enemies, first appearing in the Ice Cave (which are just a palette swap of the WIZARD). Those are the bastards that stun you and can insta-kill you. (Later versions of Final Fantasy changed these names to Piscodemon and Mind Flayer, respectively). EDIT: It just occurred to me that you may have been referring to Astos the Dark Elf King as the final boss of the Marsh Cave. Technically, he's not the boss of the Marsh Cave, as he's in Northwest Castle, but he IS the boss in the Mystic Key questline. And yes, he does have insta-kill attacks.
The cave Rhone in Dragon Quest 2 is extremely difficult. But the more frustrating one for me was that damn lighthouse. seemed like no matter how leveled up I was midway through the game, I would still get wiped out immediately by a group of fireflies.
OMG finally i found someone that Hates the Lighthouse too,i was playing yesterday the gbc version and that place is horrible,the encounter rate is high so you Will Be constantly bothered by enemies and your chance of fleeing is low you Will also spend a ton of mp and there is no mp recovery iten so the princess becomes useless,the dungeon is a maze where everything looks like the same if it wasn't for my gbc emulator i would not get the Seal, it's full of dead ends and empty rooms,bro sorry for the rant but OMG it made me think about dropping the game
Like this page and what I do here? Consider supporting me on patreon! www.patreon.com/davidvinc [0:41] - 10) Marsh Cave - Final Fantasy [1:39] - 9) Goa Fortress - Crystalis [2:33] - 8) Monster Rooms - Final Fantasy 2 [3:23] - 7) Hades Shrine - Glory of Heracles [4:17] - 6) Earth Cave - Final Fantasy [5:13] - 5) Duncan's Factory - Earthbound Zero [5:55] - 4) Baya Malay - Phantasy Star [6:57] - 3) Death Mountain - Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link [7:40] - 2) Cave to Rhone - Dragon Warrior 2 [8:30] - 1) Sylx Tower - Final Fantasy 3
Someone finally mentions my favorite NES game of all. Crystalis I love with an undieing passion and although you made a big deal about Goa Fortress it is the final area I found unforgivable. You put forth the effort to get through Goa Fortress and your reward is a tame and lame final section with no tricks and no real fun thing about it so as much as it is a nuisance to deal with sewers it is worse to go from hardest area in game to the least interesting one. it may have been over 20 years since I last played through the game but I still have memorized everything leading up to finding the wiseman to learn transform (80%ish of up until that time).
@@chrischandler889 I would if I could... I have terrible luck with NES or its remakes. Every time with out fail that I have tryed playing it on one of those after the accident claimed my original NES from when I was a kid. I am not that savvy with imulators so maybe find it that way. Though the Ocean is a close second for me... until I learned about Telepathy on a certain wise rabbit, I was stuck in that part for years... back and forth back and forth endlessly looking for what I was missing that was obvious; I mean I had tryed talking to every human and dwarf like 30 times (exageration I think). But no the sewer fortress never caused me trouble because I explored everywhere to begin with and systematically at that so never truly got turned around.
@@kodytiffany5686 that is funny you say that. I was stuck at that same place as a kid for a while. I think it took me looking at a Nintendo power one random day and boom. Made it through. Also in final fantasy I got stuck because I couldn't find the airship but then nintendo power saved me once again.
@@aneeshsrinivas9088 I was expecting something worth the effort of the fortress because at that point in my life every game was that way. But like the name sake was a waste of time because it only existed to kill certain minions and 1 boss that was a repeat of an earlier boss. Now overall its my fav NES game. But if I had to choose a fav NES "level"... I think its more like Megaman 6... if I remember right it was one of the post 8 bots levels. Honestly cannot think of a fav only many that annoyed me so stuck in my head or were mid in some way so forgot. I gave myself a good 5+minutes trying to think of one. Do you have a definitive fav "level" of NES games?
The fear of failure, the awe of not knowing how big the dungeons are, not knowing when or how difficult any bosses will be. I will always love the raw difficulty of classic RPGs. In my opinion, that difficulty is what gave me such a powerful sense of accomplishment every time I survived long enough to make it back to town. IMO, these are not the 'worst' dungeons, they are the BEST. Any dungeons that instills the fear of failure is a great dungeon.
Back in 1990 They had a special where you got the Nintendo Players Guide if you bought Final Fantasy 1 at my store. I felt no shame in using that guide as a 9 year old.
It's cheating ! If it was not cheating then everyone would have received a guide. If somebody is telling you what to do, then you have an unfair advantage and that is cheating. Imagine if you were taking a test and the teacher gave you the answers, that's cheating
Nice call on the Marsh Cave, it's position as the second dungeon really makes is a brutal experience. It's outside the scope of the video, but you kind of talked around the nature of the FF1 experience. Attrition, logistics, and planning are the core challenge of the game and I felt like that was underrepresented. As you said, the Ice Cave is technically pretty short (but deadly) and while the Earth Cave totally earns its place on the list (the hall of giants alone would be enough for anyone without a map), it's a much easier dive than the Ice Cave if you're well stocked, equipped, running from every fight that allows it, and looting it across multiple trips instead of one. Anyways, it was neat to hear about some awful dungeons I've thankfully never experienced. I'd like to hear more about the games you create your lists from, and the items in said lists within the context of their games.
i would have defintely put the ICE CAVE in instead of the EARTH CAVE. For Earth, yeah, it might be a slog, but you can level your way up so the monsters become easier to dispatch and not kill you. The ice cave is full of instant death attacks. It is far more common to have a full wipe in the Ice Cave. =^.,.^=
true story: when i was a kid i had just finished the earth cave and was making the trek back to a town so i could save. my friend who was watching me play gets up and his foot tripped over one of the controller wires and knocked the entire console on the ground. of course this caused the NES to power off and i never reached the town to save. i don't think i felt like playing FF1 again until like 6 months later.
I literally laughed out loud and clapped when you mentioned the empty rooms from FF2. If only they were just empty rooms that would be frustrating enough, but OMG they took an already frustrating game into nightmare territory.
I beat final fantasy 2 (GBA version)and gave it 7/10 because of This Kind of bullshit,This is only in the game to make you waste time and pad out the game,there is no reward or Treasure for exploring
Wait... the Wizards at the end of the Earth Cave don't have instant death abilities. They have a palette swap that does, but not the original Wizards. They just hit like tanks and beat you to death the old fashioned way. You're right about the level-grinding beforehand, though. Easily the most off-putting part of the game, for me.
It doesn't take much grinding to survive the Marsh Cave. Try a 2Fighter, 1BB, 1White set up, don't equip anything on the BB once you get like Level 5 (unequip all of his stuff). If you fight the ogres near Elfland until you get Silver Swords on the two fighters, Iron Armor and everything else, and then grind just a bit more to have like 20-30 potions and 15 or so Pures... you should easily be high enough level to handle the Marsh Cave (though it might take a little luck). Getting all of this stuff doesn't take long at 300gold per Ogre, though sometimes the game will be a jerk and give you nothing but wolves for 50 battles in a row. Once done with the Marsh Cave, you can then do the whole questline with Astos and get your Key. Once you have the Key, you can open the door in Astos's castle. Once you do this, one or two trips there with your White Mage, step in front of the chest on the right which will always spawn a battle with Mummies. Use Harm or Harm2 on those mummies to get massive gold and decent XP (do this until your mage runs out of Harm spells). Then go on, have the dwarves open the channel, then go to Melmond, get the best stuff you can, and some tents, go to the Earth Cave and levelup on Giants for awhile (it won't take long to get 3-4 levelups). Once you get Steel Armor on both Fighters, you should be high enough for the Vampire/LICH. Kill Lich, go over to the other town, get your Canoe, and then fight the PEDEs outside that town. Those PEDEs are easy at this point and give you more than enough XP that grinding to Lv50 (max level) should not be that hard. That BB in your group can one-shot any boss including CHAOS. Everybody else is there to make sure he's alive to do it. EDIT: Alternatively, and I think I might try this in a playthrough I started last week.... fight the PEDEs and levelup before going down to fight Lich. Earth Cave vs Lv50 group = LOL. Lich will die in one shot from the BB's punches.
See, I don't like having two of the same character when I build a party. Too boring for my tastes. When I criticize the level-grinding there, it's as someone who has long since known about the Peninsula of Power, which makes it so much more bearable. This part of the game was super-frustrating to me as a child, as it was a massive roadblock. I eventually powered through it, but I can't really blame anyone for being put-off by it.
It might be boring, but it is crazy effective. It equates to nearly 60% of all physical attacks being eaten by the two fighters, and as you know, many enemies only do 1 damage to them per hit outside of critical hits or exceptionally strong enemies once you get good armor on them to soak the damage. And then, the BB and the Mage end up getting enough Evasion that they rarely get hit, evading many of the attacks that do actually fall on them later in the game. And to be honest, I never really used the Peninsula of Power Levelling, I always did Ogres outside of Elfland, then the Mummies, then the Giants, and finishing off with the pedes. Plenty of XP easily enough to get up to 50, then once you're 50 the rest of the game is cakewalk if you abuse the Heal items.
It's the size of those 8bit dungeons that kill me. I'm playin DQ11 right now, it's great, but the dungeons are tiny compared to the earlier games. Kinda miss the big dungeons though. Ya they were ridiculous, but it was satisfying to know you overcame such an enormous challenge.
How do they compare in size to Persona 5's Palaces, which have many save points because they are usually meant to be completed in multiple trips (though I found it more thrilling to try and beat them in a few trips as possible)?
@timewilltell nowheretohideonly1God I agree. It's great, but to easy. I think because it's so fun and there's so much to do, it's easy to get OP from sidequests and crafting. Definitely gonna play with hard enemies next time.
Ice cave in ff1 is way way worse than marsh cave or earth cave, mostly because of the regular trash enemies with unavoidable instant death attacks (who use them way way more often than boss in the marsh cave). If that wasn't bad enough, the boss in the ice cave can cast xxxx which can be a full instant-death party wipe, with, again, no defense mechanism (or if there is it wasn't apparent via game menu or manual). Regarding the marsh cave, I always thought it was silly that the boss is random between 2 to 4.
Best strategy for the Ice Cave.....run, run, run. Obviously it's easier if you have a thief in your party but the only other alternative to fighting anything in the Ice Cave is equipping Power Bracelets and those don't even appear until a later town....
It's a tough dungeon, but the Eye boss at the end has almost no HP, and the XXXX spell only hits one character. I've played through this game probably over a dozen times and I've never had any trouble with him. Getting there can be a problem, but once you do, you've pretty much won.
The two biggest problems with the ice cave are enemies who can paralyze you, and enemies who can one shot you. The purple mindflayers are the worst offender.
That's why you do the Citadel of Trials (or whatever it's called in the NES version) first. The items you get there make the Ice Cave, if not livable, at least slightly less painful.
As an adult, looking back, it saddens me how much of that game is just useless. Murphy's Ghost on the first floor is an easily repeatable, easily killed xp pinata. All you have to do is just farm that for hours and then skip over all the rest.
I very much enjoyed this game. It was not a nightmare for me. I still have the maps I made on graph paper for it. lvl 1069 ninja with a -99 armor class. No enemy touches him and he decapitates everything in his path. lvl 1024 samurai. I even have a character that was scrambled when my electric glitched. A good ninja with healing spells all 7 levels at 9 points each and all 7 levels of mage spells minimum values on each. He is level 997. He started of as a cleric.
Death mountain put a shock to newbie player, for unprepared the challenges are pretty steep. But yeah compared to great palace, this is nightmare incarnated, hardest enemies all the way to the end boss and winding paths
To be honested, I dread dungeon 6 (if memory serves) and Death Mountain on the first Zelda more. Those God damn wizards that have the ranged wand attacks are pure hell. Dodging one is easy, but some rooms have up to 6 teleporting randomly while firing at you from all directions.
I'd suggest that if Death Mountain in Zelda 2 is giving you trouble, maybe try something like blocking incoming boomerangs with your shield, using the Shield spell for defense, and not going full Leeroy Jenkins on every enemy you see. Most enemies have fairly straightforward patterns to their attacks where you can get your attack off.
Seeing "NES and SMS" in the title, I knew that the SMS game you'd mention would be Phantasy Star :) and I also correctly guessed that you'd mention Baya Malay/Marlay specifically. I remember hand drawing the maps for that one on graph paper a few years back ~ It was so difficult, but felt pretty awesome to finish the game the "old skool" way.
After having recently replayed FF1, I have some fresh thoughts. Indeed, the Marsh Cave presents an exponential spike in difficulty at that point in the game and is when you first have to spend quite a bit of time leveling up before attempting to go through the dungeon. The trick for me for knowing how much level grinding is required before attempting the Marsh Cave is to make sure I am able to acquire and use a Silver Sword for any fighter or red mage in the party and all Level 3 and 4 spells. I also make sure I am maxed out on Heal potions (99) and have about 50 Pure potions because at this point in the game through the Earth Cave, the amount of monsters you encounter that can poison you makes it feel like you are in Australia. As for the Wizards that guard the Crown, they are still a pain. I should point out that you may be confusing Wizards with Sorcerers in FF1, when you mentioned how Wizards can inflict instant death. The Sorcerers, like those encountered in the Ice Cave, can definitely kill you with one physical hit, even if the amount of damage is not enough to reduce your HP to 0 (which is BS). That said, Wizards cannot actually do that, though they do have strong physical attacks that can seriously bloody your party to a pulp. Oddly enough, Wizards don't cast any spells. Yes, having to go through the Earth Cave practically twice was always a sticking point for me. Another thing that sucks about the floor with the Vampire is how many encounters you can have with undead enemies who are able to paralyze your party. They're not necessarily difficult, but the paralysis can make those battles last unnecessarily long. With this last playthrough, I decided it was best to run and not waste a valuable Level 3 spell charge to cast FIR2. As for the layout of the Earth Cave, I can't say I had any issue with that; when I bought the cartridge back in 1994/5, it came with maps for all dungeons on the southern part of the world map. Without those maps, yeah, that dungeon layout would be atrocious to navigate. I always enjoy your videos!
I never could figure out why Death Mountain on Zelda 2 gets a bad rap. I never had a problem getting through it and that's back when I first got through it when I was 8.
Death Mountain was difficult and confusing, but yeah, there are worse dungeons. I personally hated the final dungeon of Zelda 2. First of all you had to go a long way to even get there (with lots of places where you could fall into pits or lava) and then the dungeon itself was huge with extremely difficult enemies. If you knew the right way then it way manageable, but going in without clue was brutal. Also, it had two difficult bosses at the end of which I never managed to beat Dark Link without cheesing him, i.e. standing next to a wall and just swinging the sword until he's dead.
Death mountain was a walk in the park compared to the lava caverns you had to go through before reaching the last dungeon. It took forever just to get there, and surviving it was ridiculously hard.
It's probably because the difficulty in Death Mountain is more comparable to what you might run into upon reaching the game's 2nd half, and you're not at the 2nd game half strength yet by that point, giving a sense of being underpowered compared to the rest of the game. It is probably the toughest part of the game's first half. It's also the only place in the game that requires memorizing cave entrances (though that part doesn't bother me, it's not that hard to remember where to go). I hate the ax throwing enemies however. The only enemies worse are the blue darknuts and the jumping knights in the Great Palace (which is far more frustrating).
Final Fantasy II had the most annoying and redundant dungeons I have ever seen in a JRPG. I love the FF series but this is what I hate about JRPG games with dungeons that waste your time on long and repetitive dungeons.
Yeah, weren't there like a hundred rooms in that game with nothing in them except an enemy that ambushes you as soon as you go through the door? Way to punish RPG players for exploring, Squaresoft!
There was a lot of redundancy in FF2 but the game was ridiculously easy compared to the other NES-era Final Fantasy games. I felt that the empty rooms shouldn't have been listed on here, but instead something like Willow or Fanxanadu could have been...
Honestly, I've loved every version of FF2 that I've played, and it definitely led to what I consider to be one of the best Square series, SaGa. The way I look at it, the much-maligned "monster closets" are essential to the design of the game. If you like FF2, you like monster closets - and if you don't like monster closets, you don't like FF2 - which is fine but you're wrong because it's probably one of the most inventive RPGs ever. You can't level up in this game without A LOT of combat; you only gain a few points in whatever you're doing at that point in time per fight. Having repeatable locations with high-rate encounters is really the only good way to reliably grind out skill points. Don't look at them as, 'they're punishing me for exploring', look at them as 'they actually want me to explore their leveling and combat mechanics'. Yes, FF2 requires some grinding. I don't think there was anyone who believed otherwise. Accept it, love the story, appreciate the mechanics - the keywords, the per-weapon leveling, etc. They needed better implementation, some of which was carried into SaGa.
@@endymallorn IMHO, the main flaw of FF2 is the fact that every single spell had to be leveled up INDIVIDUALLY. This made making an effective mage build VERY tedious. (They learned from that mistake in Romancing Saga, but then it was too late to save FF2 from the horror).
Some good picks. I would add the "Nasty Dungeon" from Final Fantasy Legend II. Huge, best items in game, but completely optional. It was so big I had to use graph paper to map it out growing up.
Played it many times. Up there with lufia sinistrals bonus dungeon. Start at level one no items no magic. Only get what you find. I know it's 16 bit but feels like a hard ass 8 bit. God I love that dungeon!!! Hope for a heal spell on first five of 99!!! Levels. Oh yeah you can escape at lvl 20 then nothin
Oh, the horror of the Cave to Rhone. First off, the MASSIVE difficulty spike, You come in decently geared and get initiated by getting your face pounded into the dirt. Once you learn to survive, then there's the confusing layout. Then there are the Gold Batboon and Green Dragon encounters, The Gold Batboon casting Sacrifice has to be one of the biggest "F%&# YOU!!" moments in all of JRPG's. PS: Watching HCBailly pull off his miracle win over the dreaded Green Dragon Gang was EPIC.
The only FF1 dungeon that scares me is the Flying Fortress, if you die during it, you have to go through the entire Mirage Tower before you can catch up to wherever you were before and pray that you don't get a bad roll against stun, stone, instant death or run into Warmech right at the end. Also I find it weird that the monster rooms from FF2 are here since yeah they're annoying but they're not dungeons. If anything that's more of a complaint at the game's entire dungeon lineup.
For me it's the Guru Volcano, walking through lava and friggin strong monsters... you buy 99 heal potions and you will use them ALL. Not to mention those Red Gargoyles who can just decimate an entire party within a single round at that point of the game. Oh wait I forgot the ice cave with those monstruous dark elf who cast powerful magic + instant death spells x.x
I always do the Castle of Ordeals, Ice Cave, and Class Change first, by the time I get to Gurgu I spank everything including the boss. Ice Cave ALWAYS terrifies, you can die at any normal level (i.e. not 50) with almost any equipment set ups. I remember one time I went in there in the endgame to grind the Eye and on my way out died to those friggin Sorcerers.
If I recall, the chain of events leading into class upgrade comes after Mount Gulg, so all your gaining from doing that first is an easier Mount Gulg. But if your playing the DoS remake it's worth doing to make the Earthgift Shrine doable without doing it so late it becomes a complete cakewalk.
final fantsy II was made easier by cheesing the leveling system that can get you through 3/4's of the game around with no problem. Around the first area if you go too far the left you run into near end game enemies, BUT due to how leveling works and you get stronger by taking damage and such, you can fight the enemies there and there is 1 enemy you can beat if your lucky enough to get that you can beat at low level, might end up with only 1 party member alive everyone else dead, but just rinse and repeat over and over again as much as you can. Reminds me of the same trick I found in might and magick 2 I think it is, there was one square near a city that always had uber enemies in it, same thing, just keep entering till you can find a enemy you can defeat, even if just only 1 player survives, beat them, and repeat get high end game gear and tons of exp and so on.
You want trash dungeons? Anything from Ultima Exodus and Ultima Quest of the Avatar trashes everything except Cave of Rhone. I can't comment on the SMS games.
@@youcancallmefunk4745 there's a great spot to level up in the ice cave if you have any mages that have multi unit attacks when you get to the basment you get a fixed encouter with 7-9 undead monstere which have hella xp. When I'm doing a 4 White Wizard run I will get to this point at around level 16 and grind until level 26+ (we're talking og ff). Thats around 5-6 hours with an emulator that has a turbo button.
@@iamthem.a.n.middleagednerd1053 yeah it's a great place to grind and it makes the trip to the rat tail easier . I usually spend time in the hall of giants in the earth cave that's my favorite spot to power level to around 20 the exit is close enough that has long has you grind ogres for money to by a few tents it goes pretty fast . Man I love this game , what's funny was this video prompted me to do a 2 fighters and 2 thieves run . Which in turn put a FF 6 run on hold right after I got Odin and now I'm actually playing a Phantasy star 2 game almost about to lose nei
100% nailed FF3, I remember going through the tower doing everything (taking hours) - only to get nearly insta-killed by the cloud of darkness! The DS/Mobile edition didn't make it much easier either!!
This list really could all be Final Fantasy II. Also the dungeon design is terrible you can't see any progress.It's a 12 year dungeon master's first piece of graph paper. Final Fantasy II is a game where everything is good...in theory not execution. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the hall of Gigas in Final Fantasy's Earth Shrine.
The worst dungeons in that game, for me, is a toss-up between the Tower of Mysidia and...well, Pandemonium. (Thankfully I hadn't played the NES version.) Can't wait for a 16-bit edition to such a list.
@Princess Rescuer: That, and Death Mountain is merely a Wakeup Call in Zelda 2. Later Temples are harder than that, and that's to say nothing about how ludicrously long, mazy, and stupid the final Temple is. Or you know, just _TRYING_ to _GET_ to the Final Temple, with there being _mandatory_ battle screens every 3 steps that involve pits and annoying flying enemies everywhere to knock you in those pits.
@Jadedman: Hmm, 16-Bit terrible dungeons... let's see here... Sealed Cave (FF4): Massive Difficulty Spike compared to the content just before it, enemies that are way too hard that give too little XP for how much effort it takes to kill them, with ridiculously long attack animations (those 6x bats are the worst, because each one has a 3+ second attack that it will always do which makes battles take absolutely forever and have high speed which means they take turns often), and then the boss at the end, well I hope you did your grinding because otherwise you're dead. The Spinning Maze (Breath of Fire 1): In one of the dream worlds, I forget which, there's this spinning maze, where you are in a void, and there's walkways, and at each junction, there's a tile that spins the entire maze rapidly, and you can't see very far which will likely have you walking around in circles for hours unless you look a map up online. The enemies in here take awhile to kill and give terrible XP, so there's that too. Hopefully you brought several stacks of Mrbl3 to keep the enemies away. The Bridge Cave (Lufia and the Fortress of Doom): This cave has 5+ entrances to it, and an annoying literal broken bridge in the center. You have to go here several times to get the bridge repaired -- first to find out the bridge is broken, second to bring the engineer here that will fix it, third to go up on a ledge to watch the engineer do his thing, and finally, the fourth time, you will actually cross the bridge. Thankfully, there are mimics in here in the random encounters which give you lots of chances to get amazing XP if you can manage to kill a few, though that is no small feat. Simafort Dungeon (Breath of Fire 2): This place is SO FREAKING ANNOYING. It's early game when your characters still feel weak as crap, and there are enemies (lots and lots of random encounters!) in here that can curse you, poison you, and are generally just too annoying. The dungeon is also somewhat mazy, and the reason you go here is just the stupidest thing ever (ingredients for a cooking contest of all freaking things). If you didn't know about that "secret" levelup spot just south of Simafort where you can abuse Nina's Thunder spells to all crap and back, this dungeon is going to be a major PITA. It's a lot more palatable if you did some level grinding on those aforementioned crabs.
You got this so right! It's good to see you bring up Crystalis also. I beat that as a kid and it easily took the entire summer to do so with no guide. I remember that being one of the first games I really felt a sense of accomplishment beating. I always wished they would put out a redo of it or a sequel but it never happened.
#10: Marsh Cave: Wizards DO NOT have instant death attacks. Their purple-robed cousins you find later on, do. They just hit like mack trucks, lol. Also, it doesn't take that much grinding, if you have a good group setup, but yes, it's a good wakeup call to tell the player what they should expect later on in the game. #9: The Minimum Level is moot, because seriously, why wouldn't you grind to the max (16) as soon as you got to the area with the guys with the crossbows as it takes
Not really sure what that has to do with what I said about the volcano being worse than the Earth Cave, though I _suppose_ you _could_ make an argument about getting the Heal Staff from the Castle of Trials as that would help you out quite a bit in the volcano, if that's what you meant, and I suppose you have a point there. Assuming the player is smart enough to keep and abuse the heal items, lol. The game doesn't exactly tell you that you can do this.
What I'm saying is that many players are a lot stronger than they should be when they tackle the Volcano versus when they do the Earth Cave, so its difficulty is kind of blunted.
Eh, I always level up to Lv50 before the Volcano, and I still think it's annoying, and it's more because even if you go in there with 999 on 2-3 of your characters, those lava floors still hurt, the enemies still do their lame status attacks, blah blah. And Kary can still ruin your day even at Lv50 if she is given half the chance with enough RNG, forcing you to do that crawl all over again.
"The Minimum Level is moot, because seriously, why wouldn't you grind to the max (16) as soon as..." because some of us don't like grinding, period, and it's TERRIBLE design not to let the player deal some damage, lest they be completely screwed as they enter the room
As I have said before, this video is the reason I played Dragon Quest 2... Cave of Rhone's reputation was enough to do so. And yes, it was a freaking nightmare when I played it. SPECIALLY the way to the save point. Also, Sylx Tower is a freaking marathon, specially if you want to go to Eureka. You need to be at least in the mid level 40s for all your party members to have a chance. And why the hell the Ice Cave is not on the list? Ice cave is one of the most sadistic dungeons ever
death mountain does not belong on #3, once you get better at the game -and learn how good the shield spell is- it's not so bad, yeah it's still a difficulty spike but at least you don't HAVE to grind if you manage to play well enough
I realized while watching this that as a kid, I beat all of these dungeons, (with the exception of #4 - Phantasy Star). It's really depressing. God my childhood was lonely. I also recall the tower of tock dungeon in Breath of Fire was incredibly annoying.
I have actually took the time to play through the first Glory of Heracles (and almost lost to a game-breaking bug involving getting an item with Ares' Axe in hand). And yes, the Hades Shrine is an insufferable maze, but there is one positive. The Holy Bell to remove encounters actually works in the dungeon. And when you're at max level, it cancels ALL encounters in the dungeon, which makes it much easier to get through. That's especially a good thing since I think this game actually has a WORSE encounter rate than Dragon Warrior II. THAT is saying something.
I think we were expected to learn something from playing these difficult dungeons. Some of these you mentioned I have memorized. Not by seeing the map, but by playing through them so often when I did. Yes they are difficult, but they are supposed to be. That =IS= the point of the game. To be challenging.
Sista Jinx Thomas Likewise. Weird ass story that clearly seems to use Greek mythology as an afterthought though. I thought the gameplay was interesting, what with the special enhanced monsters that show up occasionally. Been meaning to try out the rest of the series as well, after messing around with 3 for a bit.
@@MarxasThomas It was...okay? I wouldn't call it awful but it lacked the charm of the first games and played more like a generic anime JRPG that _happened_ to be set in Greece. III is probably the best in the series. I and II are fun for what they are and IV isn't bad but feels like a huge slog.
I feel like I'm the only person who actually enjoyed the final stretch of FF3. Sure, it required a bit of grinding, but most of it was covered by the fact that the best strategy is to slowly ransack the place of its treasure, with each visit sending you a bit further inside. Then, once you get to Eureka and get the best jobs (and a free healing point!) it becomes fairly smooth sailing. Felt godlike to basically steamroll everything with two hastened Ninjas and two Sages summoning Bahamut every turn. Nothing stands in your way! And you didn't need to get to max level in order to conquer it all (unlike FF1, I can never beat the NES version of that game without maxing out to level 50 using Warmechs in the Robot Tower place).
Actually finished Phantasy Star awhile back for a review (wink wink) and I did it old-school while drawing maps and all. Baya Malay was a nightmare and I'm not doing it again!
Awesome video! I've played all the old ff games, and their fantastic remakes, so I can definitely agree with this list. Black marsh was a huge spike in ff1, and to me the earth dungeon gets me cause of the birds with their stone effect on their attacks. Ice also has instant death, but its later so your a little more leveled and it's so short. Zelda 2 has become a favorite of mine since I played it recently, and while it's tough as nails, I don't think the mountain was the hardest part of the game, but I guess I also played it in the age where theres guides everywhere on the internet for everything, I can't complain compared to the fans who played it back in the 80s. Lastly, I was surprised to see #1, simply because I havent played the other RPGs on the list, so while I have slogged through the end of ff3, I didnt think it would be that high compared to other NES games. I've also played the remake on the ds and its iOS port many times, and while it's not as difficult as the original at all, it's my fav ff to replay and the final dungeon in the remake is just the right difficulty for me that I love going back and beating it over and over. Dont know how soon I'll go back to the original, but the final dungeon in the remake to me is peak final dungeon in both length, difficulty, and presentation, 10/10.
Mt. Itoi in EB:B was also a monster. Especially the second half, when you're above-ground. It's like they had 20 leftover enemy data slots and decided "Hey, why don't we just give them all the strongest attacks and abilities?" If you die to Giegue the first time (as I did) you have to make your way up the mountainside yourself, without the extra protection from the robot. Not a fun time
I managed to beat Phantasy Star with extreme amounts of help from a FAQ a number of years ago. Knowing what awaits you in that game, I honestly think that playing it could be considered a form of torture if you have no help. It's not just Baya Malay, the whole game is a gigantic trap of labyrinthian mazes that features all of the things you described in the video - Baya Malay just happens to be the biggest one! There's like 5 other dungeons that are almost as bad as that one before it! There's even a dungeon on Dezolis where you can fall into a room and be forced to reset because there is no way out! Just imagine if you for a person having committed a serious crime and instead of traditional jail time, your probation officer locks you in a room with nothing but an old TV and a sega master system with a copy of phantasy star but with no paper, no pens, no computer/internet, or anything to write on or use. Then your probation officer tells you that if you can beat the game (meaning that Dark Falz is beaten, not just Lassic!), you can go home free. Think you could handle it?
Not many people are aware nowadays, but the original FinalFantasy came with not only an incredibly detailed instruction manual, but also several different sheets of paper. On those sheets were maps of the worst dungeons, tables showing how much XP and gold enemies gave, lists showing what classes could learn which spells, and a complete list of gear, along with who can equip what
I still think the Ice Cave in Final Fantasy 1 should have made this list only because the sheer number of monsters that can cast or strike with instant death effects or the gangs of frost wolves popping out and all spamming the Frost attack nailing everyone for 20-40 damage each wiping everyone except mayyyybe the Fighter or Black Belt if they're high enough in level. But they'll certainly die in the next encounter. That cave is sheer hell and is the hardest to get through with everyone still alive at the end. Also! You have to go through it twice if you want the Floater which is the sole purpose of going in there in the first place!
OMG, that FF 3 dungeon is crazy long. I played through an English-translated ROM of that game not too long ago. Being somewhat of a purist, I played on a reproduction cartridge with no save states, just the regular battery save. At least there's the outside part after the first section where you can save, but it's still a LONG way to the end of the game from there.
I'm a simple guy. I see Glory of Herceles in the preview, I click. One of my favorite underrated classic JRPG franchises next to Phantasy Star. Never really had a problem with the Marsh Cave, to be honest. The hardest dungeon in clasic FF for me is probably the one where you had to be minified to even traverse, basically letting even random encounters 1 shot you.
Oh god that cave was a royal pain In the ass. Especially since if u plan to get the thunder sword you have to do the dungeon all over again. Dragon warrior 2 was in my opinion the hardest of the 4 nes games. But i enjoyed that game very much.
Final Fantasy 1 is to this day the hardest game that I've ever played. I remember having to draw on a notebook all the ways to the enemy on a dungeon. I also remember that on the last dungeon you could get a sword but to get to the coffin you had to fight every single boss of each dungeon.
I loved marsh cave, it was so hard. I loved in the early games how you had to go all the way back out of the dungeon after you killed the boss and you couldn't revive people. I didn't think earth cave was that bad actually. The Zelda two dungeon was super epic and for me the High Point in the entire game
Overall, these are some really good picks. Although I confess fondness for Goa Fortress. Baya Malay is some grade-A bullcrap as far as dungeon designs. And the Road to Rhone. Dear God, the Road to Rhone. Great video, I enjoyed it.
The road to Rhone is truly in the running for hardest JRPG dungoen ever created, to this day. In fact, nothing else on this list even comes close to its bullshittery.
Lol no, I meant the cave with the lava floor and the maze layout with tons of stairways, filled with enemies that drain your MP. You find the Eye of Malroth in this place.
The other fun part about the Marsh Cave is that you need to buy those potions one at a time from the item shop (assuming that you're playing the NES version). You can speed this up for Heal potions by using a controller with turbo to press A repeatedly, but the Pure potion was second on the list, so that doesn't work.
Of all the 8-bit dungeons I remember, the one that sticks out in my mind for being out of place hard was the Cave West of Noaniels in DW3. The dungeon's bottom floor was so hard because of the mushrooms that have a group sleep breath that they put a complete magic/hp heal spring in the cave, but with some bad RNG you still RIP.
Never thought number 1 was that tough, but perhaps that is because the game seems designed for you to make use of Ninjas and Sages to have an easy time of it. The Cave of Darkness always felt worse to me; a chore to get any kind of decent experience, long..., and feels like filler blocking your path towards better parts of the game.
There is a small cheat that will definitely help with the "path to Rhone" cave in DQ2: a turtle-like monster that has an innate reflective cover that you can exploit by having your spell casters use that MP-THIEVING ability which returns to the caster and replenishes their MP. Does anyone remember Faxanadu for the NES? Now the dungeons/ dwarf monsters in that game were nightmare fuel.
That's an excellent list. I definitely would have to include the Mirage Tower/Floating Castle combo and the Temple of Chaos Revisited from Final Fantasy 1 on that list. I also would add getting into Pandemonium and finishing Pandemonium in Final Fantasy II is a big challenge. Last but not least if you don't have any FAQ guides many dungeons especially when going through the Ice Cave to get to the Final Tower and beating the Final Tower in Faria: A World of Mystery and Danger would test the core of your gaming patience. lol Thanks for sharing. :)
On Marsh Cave: Wizard / Piscodemon doesn't have instant death attacks. That's Sorcerer / Mindflayer, the purple palette swap. Wizards just have a ferocious attack. Marsh Cave isn't that bad a dungeon on it's own, I would argue; it just requires lots of grinding because the Elftown weapons and magic are fuxpensive. If you grind Ogre/Creep instead of using hitting the Peninsula of Power with FIR2, you can easily end up spending several hours grinding for those Mithril weapons and Level 4 spells. Also, level 1-2 offense spells are useless against mobs (being single-target only) and by that point pretty weak in general.
Ff8's underwater lab should at LEAST be an honorable mention. If you aren't aware of the blue light causing encounters, you drudge through several levels of random encounters with every step you take. FF4'S magnetic dungeon is really annoying too. No metal. Only wooden weapons.
For me it's the Ice cave in FF1. Those bleepin Sorcerers and Dark Mages suck. And, to this day, I can't understand why the developers had the Dark Mages guarding Cloth instead of the flame sword. Blows the mind -_-
OMG the Earth Cave. One of my friends wanted to play this game but was the type that would ask you what they were supposed to do every 5 seconds. When we got here, he was furious with me when I told him he had to go back out after beating the vampire. I couldn't convince him that it was just the way it was done. He said "Why didn't we just fight the boss when we were THERE?"
Man, Crystalis was one of my favourites growing up, even though the only way I could ever beat it was using a glitch to get past some guards blocking the way into a town. I don't remember it being overly difficult, but that might just be nostalgia softening the harder edges.
There is no way to know this until you've already done it once, but I recall that the rightmost ladder going up gets you to the end, so it feels less like a maze with such a simple trick. The encounter rate is still disgusting though, and first time with no help is hell.
If you didn't use the strategy guide and maps that came with Phantasy Star II on Sega Genesis, good luck getting through those dungeons. Not to mention that the 2nd and 3rd dungeons(Tower of Nido and Biosystems Lab) feature a random encounter with two enemies called "Blaster" and they have a high chance of surprising your party. It's only attack hits the entire party for massive damage which can result in a party wipe before even getting a chance to attack.
One of my favorite 16 bit games ... and i didn't get the walk thru book cus my cousin beat the game then let me borrow it . I spent for ever just to find out the garbage dump had a second opening but seriously the first time you go to (uzo?) to a planet of ice and cant find your way to the to surface ugh wrong exit
The earth cave in FF1 was a real wakeup call as a kid especially when i mistakenly stepped into the hall of giants. I did not know every step was a fight with said giants and boy did i unceremoniously die. The cave to Rhone in DW2 was just brutal! I hated its layout, the pits and the feeling of it never ending. Many 8 bit JRPGs really hand you your own ass!
**Cave to Rhone Intensifies** 10 utter buttfucks at every turn, walk 1 space in the wrong direction and BAM you're ejected to the beginning or the previous floor, encounter a Killer Machine and you're pretty mich done for regardless of your party's status.
I'm shocked that the cave to Rhone wasn't the top spot, or that Pandemonium from Final Fantasy II wasn't on here. Very solid list, good that FF1s Ice Cave wasn't on here, since it is relatively easy to get to, and isn't a giant maze. Esturk's lair from Dragon Quest IV should be on here. That place will destroy newer players if they aren't leveled enough.
I remember when I was a kid hearing my sister actually shouting in frustration at Death Mountain once. And yeah, that Final Fantasy 3 final dungeon? Still haven't gone back to that after losing to the end boss over five years ago.
Gonna have to correct you... monster rooms were not exclusive to FF2. They also found their way into FF4 to a degree in the tower of Bab-il, but usually had a chest in them. Sometimes they didn't, but the rooms had greatly increased monster rates so that you'd often fight 1 or 2 battles just going in and out. Also, Heracles, not Hercules. Also, Sylx, not Slyx.
Ultima... the game was a Dungeon... no seriously I would get so frustrated by dying from weak crap outside of town I would choose to fight towns people only to be schooled by them even worse (what were the purpose of heroes in a world where all blacksmiths are bosses and every commoner a mid boss).
Oh god I remember the earth cave in FF1. I played that when I was 6 years old and remember the troll hallway. Every step you take you fight a tough battle and there had to be like 20+. Once you reach the end, it turns out to be pointless cause it led you back to the beginning of the cave. Like WTF! What is the point of torturing you like that and making you feel like this has to be the right way. Oh man the rage. Also I could never beat the final boss and it took like an hour to get to him each attempt. I tried to grind for levels but eventually got tired of doing that and gave up.
"...cast Sacrifice, killing your entire party with no recourse"Okay I have 3 problems with this complaint. 1. Gold Batboons are very rare encounters in SE Rhone. It's only in the North and Western areas that they really appear with any amount of reliability, and you have to go past the shrine of saving, free healing and resurrection to get there.2. The Ai cannot under any circumstances use Sacrifice unless they are below 25% HP. So focusing Single target and utitlizing Defence to maximize your damage on one at a time is a good idea. As is...3. StopSpell. Gold Batboons are suceptible to StopSpell. I shouldn't have explain this one. The Green Dragons in the Cave are much worse to deal with because of their breath attacks, especially if they gang up on you. But in the NES version you can get multiple Water Flying Clothes so even that isn't all that bad even if it does border on an exploit.
The Piscodemons/Wizards don't insta-kill you, they just hit hard, plus they're weak to Lit2, it murders them. Plus you can use Ruse/Invis to become impossible to hit.
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Luckily as a kid, my mom would always play these types of games first and she was one meticulous woman. She used grid paper and actually mapped things herself when the game had no maps so for the kid me, it made things so much smoother when i got to play. Ahh the good ol days of grinding.
Give her a high five from the random person on the internet. That's a great mom!
Dude your mom sounds awesome!
Your mom is awesome she got my respect ✊
Not all heroes wear capes.
That's so cool! It'd be awesome to have a parent that much into video games.
What I miss about some of these old school dungeons is the feeling that you had to "prepare" for them. You just knew that a level was going to be hard, which meant you had to grind levels, buy the best equipment for all your party members, and stock up on healing items. In many cases there was no way to warp out of these dungeons, so you either had to push through them or die and retry. This gave a strong sense of satisfaction that you just don't feel in modern games since most of the time the dungeons are too easy, or you at least have some way to get out if things get rough. Out of all modern games I've played I would say Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 best capture the feeling of these old school dungeons (but with much better level design).
>But with much better level design
Lost Izalith would like a word (half-kidding, first half of DS1 is Top 3 gaming experiences of all time for me, but you can tell the exact point where the budget ran out).
Locoattack 1 The second half of DS1 is the worst game in the Souls series.
@@yaboi2500 EEEEEEEhhhhhh
I wouldn't go that far. I haven't replayed in a while, but I remember being VERY unimpressed with DS2's level design and overall mechanics (mostly the fact that they nerfed dodge-rolling into the ground). It just felt weird.
Plus, the bosses weren't nearly as memorable.
Even in the second half of DS1, you still got some good stuff (Duke's, Nito's boss fight, Gwyn, Painted world). Even if the areas weren't as good, they were waaay more memorable than half of DS2's areas to me.
Locoattack 1 That’s the thing, though. DS2’s quality was mediocre all the way through. The second half of DS1 was such a drop in quality you wonder what the fuck happened.
Also you always had to watch every step you take cause every battle is draining your healing magics and potion, so you can't just walk out aimlessly and you also need to choose careful the paths you take.
FF1 is special to me and still to this day, I have rose colored glasses when it comes to the game.
I still love it and prefer it to many new games
You and me both. Me and my childhood friend played this game to death.
This Rhone Cave wrecked me. Imagine you had to through this back at 90s when there is no internet or guide. You had to in and out to draw your own map.
I just want you to know that any love for Crystalis is aces in my book. Goa Fortress may be the dungeon of ultimate sadism, but the fact it appeared shows me the love for this game endures.
Also: Love hearing the Baya Malay theme. Phantasy Star was one of my VERY first RPGs, ever (I had an SMS before a NES). And that particular dungeon theme is (IMO) the most memorable track in it.
Lastly, the moment I started this video, I knew exactly what I wanted to see as number one.... unfortunately, you place it as #2 (In my defense, I didn't play FF3 until its DS release). The Road to Rhone stands in my memory as the greatest dungeon slog of all time. It was horrible getting there, it was abysmal trudging through it, and then you had to trek even farther afterward before you were anywhere safe! In a game which, itself, is probably the most difficult of all 8-bit RPGs I played, that cave is an unnatural abomination. The ONLY fondness I have for it is that I can say I beat it.
A well-done video overall. Lots of nostalgic memories.
Reboot!
♥️ Crystalis
Oh, gawd, FF III, the final dungeon that still lives in my nightmares decades later. Whenever my D&D players get out of line, I start taking inspiration from early Final Fantasy games. Fun and engaging, but brutal when you're trying and DEADLY to the inattentive...
It's more easily managed in FF14 (The Crystal Tower Raids in this case)...it's easy knowing you have 23 other helping out
I haven't actually played FF14 (real life tends to take too much time from me to accommodate video games any more, alas) but the series as a whole has some crazy dungeons.
I feel like the worst thing about that one is all the copycats who thought "oh, yeah, that's the perfect epic ending sequence for an RPG!" I recall Albert Odyssey being similar, though obviously not nearly as bad.
Every dungeon in every D&D campaign I've run has had something inspired by FF in it. They really put a good spin on the RPG format and I'm glad they took so much from D&D that it's obvious if you look.
@@endymallorn definitely. they borrowed heavily from D&D which turned around and started borrowing heavily right back. a truly symbiotic relationship :)
before I started watching this I said "PATH TO RHONE" and sure enough you included it...and totally agree on Duncan's Factory...I've stopped playing many-a-time there too! Great job, man!
dave undersells how awful the crystal tower in FF3 (sylx tower in the NES version) truly is.
No my friends, the crystal tower gets WAYYY worse.
First of all, it houses the Labyrinth of Earth (and the Earth Crystal is literally in the center of the first hallway 4Head), which is then proceeded by the final opportunity to SAVE. Then you are thrust into a series of dungeons (as dave said) BUT YOU CANNOT SAVE IN THE MIDDLE OF ANY OF THEM.
You fight tough bosses, THEN proceed to take on the big bad of the main story, Cloud of Darkness appears and kicks your ass, THEN you have to go through the world of Darkness and kill the 4 chosen heroes of darkness and THEN can you move on the final final boss which is hard as balls (unless you grind and even then she can just laser you to death).
All that. Without saving. Without a single game over, its an iron man TEST for the most hardened of veterans and there is no mercy.
Oh and by the way. I mentioned getting the Earth Crystal RIGHT BEFORE entering the final dungeon in the game. Youre gonna be GRINDING. A LOT.
On the upside, the crystal tower has one of the BEST soundtracks in gaming, PERIOD. I highly recommend it if you want a good kick of the ol´ epic sauce.
At least you're able to exit and save (and grind some more) after Eureka... the point of no return being a whole dungeon after the save opportunity is a dick move, since there's a whole other dungeon after that with the six mandatory bosses. A modern game would put the point of no return/final save point after the Dark Heroes, or just make the six bosses a gauntlet with no additional dungeon.
I did beat it on the DS, but boy is it a rough battle to beat this place...
The "boss" at the end of the Marsh Cave in Final Fantasy were the WIZARD enemies. They have no instant death attack, although at that level they do hit like a truck.
You're thinking of the later SORCERER enemies, first appearing in the Ice Cave (which are just a palette swap of the WIZARD). Those are the bastards that stun you and can insta-kill you.
(Later versions of Final Fantasy changed these names to Piscodemon and Mind Flayer, respectively).
EDIT: It just occurred to me that you may have been referring to Astos the Dark Elf King as the final boss of the Marsh Cave. Technically, he's not the boss of the Marsh Cave, as he's in Northwest Castle, but he IS the boss in the Mystic Key questline. And yes, he does have insta-kill attacks.
Thank you, was hoping someone else had pointed this out :)
The cave Rhone in Dragon Quest 2 is extremely difficult. But the more frustrating one for me was that damn lighthouse. seemed like no matter how leveled up I was midway through the game, I would still get wiped out immediately by a group of fireflies.
OMG finally i found someone that Hates the Lighthouse too,i was playing yesterday the gbc version and that place is horrible,the encounter rate is high so you Will Be constantly bothered by enemies and your chance of fleeing is low you Will also spend a ton of mp and there is no mp recovery iten so the princess becomes useless,the dungeon is a maze where everything looks like the same if it wasn't for my gbc emulator i would not get the Seal, it's full of dead ends and empty rooms,bro sorry for the rant but OMG it made me think about dropping the game
@@isidoro19david65 haha I know man I know. play the NES version if you think you can handle the carnage. Guarantee you it's even worse!
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[0:41] - 10) Marsh Cave - Final Fantasy
[1:39] - 9) Goa Fortress - Crystalis
[2:33] - 8) Monster Rooms - Final Fantasy 2
[3:23] - 7) Hades Shrine - Glory of Heracles
[4:17] - 6) Earth Cave - Final Fantasy
[5:13] - 5) Duncan's Factory - Earthbound Zero
[5:55] - 4) Baya Malay - Phantasy Star
[6:57] - 3) Death Mountain - Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link
[7:40] - 2) Cave to Rhone - Dragon Warrior 2
[8:30] - 1) Sylx Tower - Final Fantasy 3
Someone finally mentions my favorite NES game of all. Crystalis I love with an undieing passion and although you made a big deal about Goa Fortress it is the final area I found unforgivable. You put forth the effort to get through Goa Fortress and your reward is a tame and lame final section with no tricks and no real fun thing about it so as much as it is a nuisance to deal with sewers it is worse to go from hardest area in game to the least interesting one.
it may have been over 20 years since I last played through the game but I still have memorized everything leading up to finding the wiseman to learn transform (80%ish of up until that time).
Play it again. Worth it. I played it maybe 5 months ago and still a great game with great music.
@@chrischandler889 I would if I could... I have terrible luck with NES or its remakes.
Every time with out fail that I have tryed playing it on one of those after the accident claimed my original NES from when I was a kid.
I am not that savvy with imulators so maybe find it that way.
Though the Ocean is a close second for me... until I learned about Telepathy on a certain wise rabbit, I was stuck in that part for years... back and forth back and forth endlessly looking for what I was missing that was obvious; I mean I had tryed talking to every human and dwarf like 30 times (exageration I think). But no the sewer fortress never caused me trouble because I explored everywhere to begin with and systematically at that so never truly got turned around.
@@kodytiffany5686 that is funny you say that. I was stuck at that same place as a kid for a while. I think it took me looking at a Nintendo power one random day and boom. Made it through. Also in final fantasy I got stuck because I couldn't find the airship but then nintendo power saved me once again.
Honestly, goa fortress was so bad, that I think its warranted to have an easier end game
@@aneeshsrinivas9088 I was expecting something worth the effort of the fortress because at that point in my life every game was that way.
But like the name sake was a waste of time because it only existed to kill certain minions and 1 boss that was a repeat of an earlier boss.
Now overall its my fav NES game. But if I had to choose a fav NES "level"... I think its more like Megaman 6... if I remember right it was one of the post 8 bots levels. Honestly cannot think of a fav only many that annoyed me so stuck in my head or were mid in some way so forgot. I gave myself a good 5+minutes trying to think of one.
Do you have a definitive fav "level" of NES games?
The fear of failure, the awe of not knowing how big the dungeons are, not knowing when or how difficult any bosses will be. I will always love the raw difficulty of classic RPGs. In my opinion, that difficulty is what gave me such a powerful sense of accomplishment every time I survived long enough to make it back to town.
IMO, these are not the 'worst' dungeons, they are the BEST. Any dungeons that instills the fear of failure is a great dungeon.
Back in 1990 They had a special where you got the Nintendo Players Guide if you bought Final Fantasy 1 at my store. I felt no shame in using that guide as a 9 year old.
I still have my Nintendo Power guide, but I got it with my subscription. It was a lifesaver!
I still have my copy of Final Fantasy. I never used a guide, that's cheating even if you were 9
It's cheating ! If it was not cheating then everyone would have received a guide. If somebody is telling you what to do, then you have an unfair advantage and that is cheating. Imagine if you were taking a test and the teacher gave you the answers, that's cheating
Nice call on the Marsh Cave, it's position as the second dungeon really makes is a brutal experience.
It's outside the scope of the video, but you kind of talked around the nature of the FF1 experience. Attrition, logistics, and planning are the core challenge of the game and I felt like that was underrepresented. As you said, the Ice Cave is technically pretty short (but deadly) and while the Earth Cave totally earns its place on the list (the hall of giants alone would be enough for anyone without a map), it's a much easier dive than the Ice Cave if you're well stocked, equipped, running from every fight that allows it, and looting it across multiple trips instead of one.
Anyways, it was neat to hear about some awful dungeons I've thankfully never experienced. I'd like to hear more about the games you create your lists from, and the items in said lists within the context of their games.
i would have defintely put the ICE CAVE in instead of the EARTH CAVE. For Earth, yeah, it might be a slog, but you can level your way up so the monsters become easier to dispatch and not kill you. The ice cave is full of instant death attacks. It is far more common to have a full wipe in the Ice Cave.
=^.,.^=
Agreed.
true story: when i was a kid i had just finished the earth cave and was making the trek back to a town so i could save. my friend who was watching me play gets up and his foot tripped over one of the controller wires and knocked the entire console on the ground. of course this caused the NES to power off and i never reached the town to save. i don't think i felt like playing FF1 again until like 6 months later.
I literally laughed out loud and clapped when you mentioned the empty rooms from FF2. If only they were just empty rooms that would be frustrating enough, but OMG they took an already frustrating game into nightmare territory.
Yeah, that shit was so annoying. I love FF2, but the extraordinary amount of empty rooms with guaranteed encounters just felt lazy.
I beat final fantasy 2 (GBA version)and gave it 7/10 because of This Kind of bullshit,This is only in the game to make you waste time and pad out the game,there is no reward or Treasure for exploring
Wait... the Wizards at the end of the Earth Cave don't have instant death abilities. They have a palette swap that does, but not the original Wizards. They just hit like tanks and beat you to death the old fashioned way. You're right about the level-grinding beforehand, though. Easily the most off-putting part of the game, for me.
It doesn't take much grinding to survive the Marsh Cave. Try a 2Fighter, 1BB, 1White set up, don't equip anything on the BB once you get like Level 5 (unequip all of his stuff). If you fight the ogres near Elfland until you get Silver Swords on the two fighters, Iron Armor and everything else, and then grind just a bit more to have like 20-30 potions and 15 or so Pures... you should easily be high enough level to handle the Marsh Cave (though it might take a little luck). Getting all of this stuff doesn't take long at 300gold per Ogre, though sometimes the game will be a jerk and give you nothing but wolves for 50 battles in a row. Once done with the Marsh Cave, you can then do the whole questline with Astos and get your Key. Once you have the Key, you can open the door in Astos's castle. Once you do this, one or two trips there with your White Mage, step in front of the chest on the right which will always spawn a battle with Mummies. Use Harm or Harm2 on those mummies to get massive gold and decent XP (do this until your mage runs out of Harm spells). Then go on, have the dwarves open the channel, then go to Melmond, get the best stuff you can, and some tents, go to the Earth Cave and levelup on Giants for awhile (it won't take long to get 3-4 levelups). Once you get Steel Armor on both Fighters, you should be high enough for the Vampire/LICH. Kill Lich, go over to the other town, get your Canoe, and then fight the PEDEs outside that town. Those PEDEs are easy at this point and give you more than enough XP that grinding to Lv50 (max level) should not be that hard. That BB in your group can one-shot any boss including CHAOS. Everybody else is there to make sure he's alive to do it.
EDIT: Alternatively, and I think I might try this in a playthrough I started last week.... fight the PEDEs and levelup before going down to fight Lich. Earth Cave vs Lv50 group = LOL. Lich will die in one shot from the BB's punches.
See, I don't like having two of the same character when I build a party. Too boring for my tastes.
When I criticize the level-grinding there, it's as someone who has long since known about the Peninsula of Power, which makes it so much more bearable. This part of the game was super-frustrating to me as a child, as it was a massive roadblock. I eventually powered through it, but I can't really blame anyone for being put-off by it.
It might be boring, but it is crazy effective. It equates to nearly 60% of all physical attacks being eaten by the two fighters, and as you know, many enemies only do 1 damage to them per hit outside of critical hits or exceptionally strong enemies once you get good armor on them to soak the damage. And then, the BB and the Mage end up getting enough Evasion that they rarely get hit, evading many of the attacks that do actually fall on them later in the game. And to be honest, I never really used the Peninsula of Power Levelling, I always did Ogres outside of Elfland, then the Mummies, then the Giants, and finishing off with the pedes. Plenty of XP easily enough to get up to 50, then once you're 50 the rest of the game is cakewalk if you abuse the Heal items.
The wizards are weak against Lit spells.
They are not weak to Lit, it's just that they resist the other elements ;) (tl;dr : use Lit2)
It's the size of those 8bit dungeons that kill me. I'm playin DQ11 right now, it's great, but the dungeons are tiny compared to the earlier games. Kinda miss the big dungeons though. Ya they were ridiculous, but it was satisfying to know you overcame such an enormous challenge.
How do they compare in size to Persona 5's Palaces, which have many save points because they are usually meant to be completed in multiple trips (though I found it more thrilling to try and beat them in a few trips as possible)?
@timewilltell nowheretohideonly1God I agree. It's great, but to easy. I think because it's so fun and there's so much to do, it's easy to get OP from sidequests and crafting. Definitely gonna play with hard enemies next time.
there is a feature in DQ11 for increased difficulty, thousands replayed DQ8 to death so if you want monsters hitting for 200-300% dmg have at it!
@@RW77777777 I realized it was to easy about 30 hrs in. By then I wasn't gonna start over. Oh well, next time.
Ice cave in ff1 is way way worse than marsh cave or earth cave, mostly because of the regular trash enemies with unavoidable instant death attacks (who use them way way more often than boss in the marsh cave). If that wasn't bad enough, the boss in the ice cave can cast xxxx which can be a full instant-death party wipe, with, again, no defense mechanism (or if there is it wasn't apparent via game menu or manual).
Regarding the marsh cave, I always thought it was silly that the boss is random between 2 to 4.
Best strategy for the Ice Cave.....run, run, run. Obviously it's easier if you have a thief in your party but the only other alternative to fighting anything in the Ice Cave is equipping Power Bracelets and those don't even appear until a later town....
Ghalion666 I think the Ribbon can protect against it, but I doubt the player has one around the time.
It's a tough dungeon, but the Eye boss at the end has almost no HP, and the XXXX spell only hits one character. I've played through this game probably over a dozen times and I've never had any trouble with him. Getting there can be a problem, but once you do, you've pretty much won.
The two biggest problems with the ice cave are enemies who can paralyze you, and enemies who can one shot you. The purple mindflayers are the worst offender.
That's why you do the Citadel of Trials (or whatever it's called in the NES version) first. The items you get there make the Ice Cave, if not livable, at least slightly less painful.
The entire dungeon of Wizardry on the NES was just a nightmare.
As an adult, looking back, it saddens me how much of that game is just useless. Murphy's Ghost on the first floor is an easily repeatable, easily killed xp pinata. All you have to do is just farm that for hours and then skip over all the rest.
I very much enjoyed this game. It was not a nightmare for me. I still have the maps I made on graph paper for it. lvl 1069 ninja with a -99 armor class. No enemy touches him and he decapitates everything in his path. lvl 1024 samurai. I even have a character that was scrambled when my electric glitched. A good ninja with healing spells all 7 levels at 9 points each and all 7 levels of mage spells minimum values on each. He is level 997. He started of as a cleric.
Nes wizardry had severely broken mechanics. You want a version that is not riddled with stupid
Wizardry I was fine for me, great game. The real nightmare is IV.. it is notorious for being the hardest rpg ever.
Tony James Wizardry V is the best for me! 😊
3:48 & 6:28 Shoutouts FTW! Glad my maps helped you!
you’re legendary man! i also used your maps a lot. now i guess i can’t thank you directly!
Good work 👍
Death mountain isn't that bad. Just level your stats early before going there.
Yeah, Death Mountain really wasn't too bad for me either. The Great Palace, on the other hand, was a nightmare.
Death mountain put a shock to newbie player, for unprepared the challenges are pretty steep.
But yeah compared to great palace, this is nightmare incarnated, hardest enemies all the way to the end boss and winding paths
To be honested, I dread dungeon 6 (if memory serves) and Death Mountain on the first Zelda more.
Those God damn wizards that have the ranged wand attacks are pure hell. Dodging one is easy, but some rooms have up to 6 teleporting randomly while firing at you from all directions.
Shining in the darkness... whole damn game....
That... is not an 8 bit game
I absolutely loved that game on the genesis
Yup
I'd suggest that if Death Mountain in Zelda 2 is giving you trouble, maybe try something like blocking incoming boomerangs with your shield, using the Shield spell for defense, and not going full Leeroy Jenkins on every enemy you see.
Most enemies have fairly straightforward patterns to their attacks where you can get your attack off.
This is when gamers were heroes. I am still lost in the Castle of the Dragon Lord.
Seeing "NES and SMS" in the title, I knew that the SMS game you'd mention would be Phantasy Star :) and I also correctly guessed that you'd mention Baya Malay/Marlay specifically. I remember hand drawing the maps for that one on graph paper a few years back ~ It was so difficult, but felt pretty awesome to finish the game the "old skool" way.
Path to Rhone...*shudders, cue ptsd flashback*
Same. Made the mistake of using the Dragon’s Potion right before I fought Hargon.
It was a terrible lesson to learn.
Brutal game. Only cared a single playthrough. Cost $90
After having recently replayed FF1, I have some fresh thoughts. Indeed, the Marsh Cave presents an exponential spike in difficulty at that point in the game and is when you first have to spend quite a bit of time leveling up before attempting to go through the dungeon. The trick for me for knowing how much level grinding is required before attempting the Marsh Cave is to make sure I am able to acquire and use a Silver Sword for any fighter or red mage in the party and all Level 3 and 4 spells. I also make sure I am maxed out on Heal potions (99) and have about 50 Pure potions because at this point in the game through the Earth Cave, the amount of monsters you encounter that can poison you makes it feel like you are in Australia.
As for the Wizards that guard the Crown, they are still a pain. I should point out that you may be confusing Wizards with Sorcerers in FF1, when you mentioned how Wizards can inflict instant death. The Sorcerers, like those encountered in the Ice Cave, can definitely kill you with one physical hit, even if the amount of damage is not enough to reduce your HP to 0 (which is BS). That said, Wizards cannot actually do that, though they do have strong physical attacks that can seriously bloody your party to a pulp. Oddly enough, Wizards don't cast any spells.
Yes, having to go through the Earth Cave practically twice was always a sticking point for me. Another thing that sucks about the floor with the Vampire is how many encounters you can have with undead enemies who are able to paralyze your party. They're not necessarily difficult, but the paralysis can make those battles last unnecessarily long. With this last playthrough, I decided it was best to run and not waste a valuable Level 3 spell charge to cast FIR2.
As for the layout of the Earth Cave, I can't say I had any issue with that; when I bought the cartridge back in 1994/5, it came with maps for all dungeons on the southern part of the world map. Without those maps, yeah, that dungeon layout would be atrocious to navigate.
I always enjoy your videos!
I never could figure out why Death Mountain on Zelda 2 gets a bad rap. I never had a problem getting through it and that's back when I first got through it when I was 8.
I actually like Zelda 2, and I got through it with minimal issues myself when I was a kid!
Death Mountain was difficult and confusing, but yeah, there are worse dungeons. I personally hated the final dungeon of Zelda 2. First of all you had to go a long way to even get there (with lots of places where you could fall into pits or lava) and then the dungeon itself was huge with extremely difficult enemies. If you knew the right way then it way manageable, but going in without clue was brutal. Also, it had two difficult bosses at the end of which I never managed to beat Dark Link without cheesing him, i.e. standing next to a wall and just swinging the sword until he's dead.
Same
Death mountain was a walk in the park compared to the lava caverns you had to go through before reaching the last dungeon. It took forever just to get there, and surviving it was ridiculously hard.
It's probably because the difficulty in Death Mountain is more comparable to what you might run into upon reaching the game's 2nd half, and you're not at the 2nd game half strength yet by that point, giving a sense of being underpowered compared to the rest of the game. It is probably the toughest part of the game's first half. It's also the only place in the game that requires memorizing cave entrances (though that part doesn't bother me, it's not that hard to remember where to go). I hate the ax throwing enemies however. The only enemies worse are the blue darknuts and the jumping knights in the Great Palace (which is far more frustrating).
First-person dungeons in rpg video games have that feel, of found footage formats.
Final Fantasy II had the most annoying and redundant dungeons I have ever seen in a JRPG. I love the FF series but this is what I hate about JRPG games with dungeons that waste your time on long and repetitive dungeons.
Yeah, weren't there like a hundred rooms in that game with nothing in them except an enemy that ambushes you as soon as you go through the door? Way to punish RPG players for exploring, Squaresoft!
They pulled those from romancing saga monster rooms everywhere
There was a lot of redundancy in FF2 but the game was ridiculously easy compared to the other NES-era Final Fantasy games. I felt that the empty rooms shouldn't have been listed on here, but instead something like Willow or Fanxanadu could have been...
Honestly, I've loved every version of FF2 that I've played, and it definitely led to what I consider to be one of the best Square series, SaGa. The way I look at it, the much-maligned "monster closets" are essential to the design of the game. If you like FF2, you like monster closets - and if you don't like monster closets, you don't like FF2 - which is fine but you're wrong because it's probably one of the most inventive RPGs ever. You can't level up in this game without A LOT of combat; you only gain a few points in whatever you're doing at that point in time per fight. Having repeatable locations with high-rate encounters is really the only good way to reliably grind out skill points. Don't look at them as, 'they're punishing me for exploring', look at them as 'they actually want me to explore their leveling and combat mechanics'. Yes, FF2 requires some grinding. I don't think there was anyone who believed otherwise. Accept it, love the story, appreciate the mechanics - the keywords, the per-weapon leveling, etc. They needed better implementation, some of which was carried into SaGa.
@@endymallorn IMHO, the main flaw of FF2 is the fact that every single spell had to be leveled up INDIVIDUALLY. This made making an effective mage build VERY tedious. (They learned from that mistake in Romancing Saga, but then it was too late to save FF2 from the horror).
Some good picks. I would add the "Nasty Dungeon" from Final Fantasy Legend II. Huge, best items in game, but completely optional. It was so big I had to use graph paper to map it out growing up.
Played it many times. Up there with lufia sinistrals bonus dungeon. Start at level one no items no magic. Only get what you find. I know it's 16 bit but feels like a hard ass 8 bit. God I love that dungeon!!! Hope for a heal spell on first five of 99!!! Levels. Oh yeah you can escape at lvl 20 then nothin
Oh, the horror of the Cave to Rhone. First off, the MASSIVE difficulty spike, You come in decently geared and get initiated by getting your face pounded into the dirt. Once you learn to survive, then there's the confusing layout. Then there are the Gold Batboon and Green Dragon encounters, The Gold Batboon casting Sacrifice has to be one of the biggest "F%&# YOU!!" moments in all of JRPG's.
PS: Watching HCBailly pull off his miracle win over the dreaded Green Dragon Gang was EPIC.
Classic! 😁
The only FF1 dungeon that scares me is the Flying Fortress, if you die during it, you have to go through the entire Mirage Tower before you can catch up to wherever you were before and pray that you don't get a bad roll against stun, stone, instant death or run into Warmech right at the end.
Also I find it weird that the monster rooms from FF2 are here since yeah they're annoying but they're not dungeons. If anything that's more of a complaint at the game's entire dungeon lineup.
For me it's the Guru Volcano, walking through lava and friggin strong monsters... you buy 99 heal potions and you will use them ALL. Not to mention those Red Gargoyles who can just decimate an entire party within a single round at that point of the game. Oh wait I forgot the ice cave with those monstruous dark elf who cast powerful magic + instant death spells x.x
I always do the Castle of Ordeals, Ice Cave, and Class Change first, by the time I get to Gurgu I spank everything including the boss. Ice Cave ALWAYS terrifies, you can die at any normal level (i.e. not 50) with almost any equipment set ups. I remember one time I went in there in the endgame to grind the Eye and on my way out died to those friggin Sorcerers.
I do the same thing. Class change before the volcano. I was 12 when I first thought of it, and boy was I proud of myself! haha
...and don't forget about WarMECH!
If I recall, the chain of events leading into class upgrade comes after Mount Gulg, so all your gaining from doing that first is an easier Mount Gulg. But if your playing the DoS remake it's worth doing to make the Earthgift Shrine doable without doing it so late it becomes a complete cakewalk.
These video titles speak to my soul.
Just the bedtime viewing I was looking for :D
wait.. Zelda II? JRPG?
DAMNIT DAVID.
LOL! I can't have a video without a little bit of controversy, can I?
final fantsy II was made easier by cheesing the leveling system that can get you through 3/4's of the game around with no problem.
Around the first area if you go too far the left you run into near end game enemies, BUT due to how leveling works and you get stronger by taking damage and such, you can fight the enemies there and there is 1 enemy you can beat if your lucky enough to get that you can beat at low level, might end up with only 1 party member alive everyone else dead, but just rinse and repeat over and over again as much as you can.
Reminds me of the same trick I found in might and magick 2 I think it is, there was one square near a city that always had uber enemies in it, same thing, just keep entering till you can find a enemy you can defeat, even if just only 1 player survives, beat them, and repeat get high end game gear and tons of exp and so on.
You want trash dungeons? Anything from Ultima Exodus and Ultima Quest of the Avatar trashes everything except Cave of Rhone. I can't comment on the SMS games.
Ultima: Exodus doesn't have dungeons, it has various levels of hell.
whoosh
whoosh
whoosh
Tchch!
"Everyone in the party is dead."
@@danielkyavata6233 that's the trooth. 😂
I haven't played FF1 since cavern of ice.
Poison.......instant death!
Not that hard
Lol , I go there before the before I even go after the fire orb
@@youcancallmefunk4745 there's a great spot to level up in the ice cave if you have any mages that have multi unit attacks when you get to the basment you get a fixed encouter with 7-9 undead monstere which have hella xp. When I'm doing a 4 White Wizard run I will get to this point at around level 16 and grind until level 26+ (we're talking og ff). Thats around 5-6 hours with an emulator that has a turbo button.
@@iamthem.a.n.middleagednerd1053 yeah it's a great place to grind and it makes the trip to the rat tail easier . I usually spend time in the hall of giants in the earth cave that's my favorite spot to power level to around 20 the exit is close enough that has long has you grind ogres for money to by a few tents it goes pretty fast . Man I love this game , what's funny was this video prompted me to do a 2 fighters and 2 thieves run . Which in turn put a FF 6 run on hold right after I got Odin and now I'm actually playing a Phantasy star 2 game almost about to lose nei
Dragon Warrior 3's Necrogond cave is Rhone's little brother. Not nearly as unfair, but still difficult in about the same ways.
One of my favourite dungeons!
100% nailed FF3, I remember going through the tower doing everything (taking hours) - only to get nearly insta-killed by the cloud of darkness! The DS/Mobile edition didn't make it much easier either!!
This list really could all be Final Fantasy II. Also the dungeon design is terrible you can't see any progress.It's a 12 year dungeon master's first piece of graph paper. Final Fantasy II is a game where everything is good...in theory not execution. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the hall of Gigas in Final Fantasy's Earth Shrine.
I think Final Fantasy II deserves its own video, lol
The worst dungeons in that game, for me, is a toss-up between the Tower of Mysidia and...well, Pandemonium. (Thankfully I hadn't played the NES version.)
Can't wait for a 16-bit edition to such a list.
@Princess Rescuer: That, and Death Mountain is merely a Wakeup Call in Zelda 2. Later Temples are harder than that, and that's to say nothing about how ludicrously long, mazy, and stupid the final Temple is. Or you know, just _TRYING_ to _GET_ to the Final Temple, with there being _mandatory_ battle screens every 3 steps that involve pits and annoying flying enemies everywhere to knock you in those pits.
@Jadedman: Hmm, 16-Bit terrible dungeons... let's see here...
Sealed Cave (FF4): Massive Difficulty Spike compared to the content just before it, enemies that are way too hard that give too little XP for how much effort it takes to kill them, with ridiculously long attack animations (those 6x bats are the worst, because each one has a 3+ second attack that it will always do which makes battles take absolutely forever and have high speed which means they take turns often), and then the boss at the end, well I hope you did your grinding because otherwise you're dead.
The Spinning Maze (Breath of Fire 1): In one of the dream worlds, I forget which, there's this spinning maze, where you are in a void, and there's walkways, and at each junction, there's a tile that spins the entire maze rapidly, and you can't see very far which will likely have you walking around in circles for hours unless you look a map up online. The enemies in here take awhile to kill and give terrible XP, so there's that too. Hopefully you brought several stacks of Mrbl3 to keep the enemies away.
The Bridge Cave (Lufia and the Fortress of Doom): This cave has 5+ entrances to it, and an annoying literal broken bridge in the center. You have to go here several times to get the bridge repaired -- first to find out the bridge is broken, second to bring the engineer here that will fix it, third to go up on a ledge to watch the engineer do his thing, and finally, the fourth time, you will actually cross the bridge. Thankfully, there are mimics in here in the random encounters which give you lots of chances to get amazing XP if you can manage to kill a few, though that is no small feat.
Simafort Dungeon (Breath of Fire 2): This place is SO FREAKING ANNOYING. It's early game when your characters still feel weak as crap, and there are enemies (lots and lots of random encounters!) in here that can curse you, poison you, and are generally just too annoying. The dungeon is also somewhat mazy, and the reason you go here is just the stupidest thing ever (ingredients for a cooking contest of all freaking things). If you didn't know about that "secret" levelup spot just south of Simafort where you can abuse Nina's Thunder spells to all crap and back, this dungeon is going to be a major PITA. It's a lot more palatable if you did some level grinding on those aforementioned crabs.
Death mountain, in Zelda 2, is easy when you figure out the path.
When given a choice, go right.
You got this so right! It's good to see you bring up Crystalis also. I beat that as a kid and it easily took the entire summer to do so with no guide. I remember that being one of the first games I really felt a sense of accomplishment beating. I always wished they would put out a redo of it or a sequel but it never happened.
#10: Marsh Cave: Wizards DO NOT have instant death attacks. Their purple-robed cousins you find later on, do. They just hit like mack trucks, lol. Also, it doesn't take that much grinding, if you have a good group setup, but yes, it's a good wakeup call to tell the player what they should expect later on in the game.
#9: The Minimum Level is moot, because seriously, why wouldn't you grind to the max (16) as soon as you got to the area with the guys with the crossbows as it takes
Nobody does the Volcano without skipping to the class change first.
Not really sure what that has to do with what I said about the volcano being worse than the Earth Cave, though I _suppose_ you _could_ make an argument about getting the Heal Staff from the Castle of Trials as that would help you out quite a bit in the volcano, if that's what you meant, and I suppose you have a point there. Assuming the player is smart enough to keep and abuse the heal items, lol. The game doesn't exactly tell you that you can do this.
What I'm saying is that many players are a lot stronger than they should be when they tackle the Volcano versus when they do the Earth Cave, so its difficulty is kind of blunted.
Eh, I always level up to Lv50 before the Volcano, and I still think it's annoying, and it's more because even if you go in there with 999 on 2-3 of your characters, those lava floors still hurt, the enemies still do their lame status attacks, blah blah. And Kary can still ruin your day even at Lv50 if she is given half the chance with enough RNG, forcing you to do that crawl all over again.
"The Minimum Level is moot, because seriously, why wouldn't you grind to the max (16) as soon as..."
because some of us don't like grinding, period, and it's TERRIBLE design not to let the player deal some damage, lest they be completely screwed as they enter the room
As I have said before, this video is the reason I played Dragon Quest 2... Cave of Rhone's reputation was enough to do so. And yes, it was a freaking nightmare when I played it. SPECIALLY the way to the save point.
Also, Sylx Tower is a freaking marathon, specially if you want to go to Eureka. You need to be at least in the mid level 40s for all your party members to have a chance.
And why the hell the Ice Cave is not on the list? Ice cave is one of the most sadistic dungeons ever
death mountain does not belong on #3, once you get better at the game -and learn how good the shield spell is- it's not so bad, yeah it's still a difficulty spike but at least you don't HAVE to grind if you manage to play well enough
I realized while watching this that as a kid, I beat all of these dungeons, (with the exception of #4 - Phantasy Star). It's really depressing. God my childhood was lonely. I also recall the tower of tock dungeon in Breath of Fire was incredibly annoying.
I have actually took the time to play through the first Glory of Heracles (and almost lost to a game-breaking bug involving getting an item with Ares' Axe in hand). And yes, the Hades Shrine is an insufferable maze, but there is one positive. The Holy Bell to remove encounters actually works in the dungeon. And when you're at max level, it cancels ALL encounters in the dungeon, which makes it much easier to get through. That's especially a good thing since I think this game actually has a WORSE encounter rate than Dragon Warrior II. THAT is saying something.
Good video man. Voiceover quality is sounding good!
I think we were expected to learn something from playing these difficult dungeons. Some of these you mentioned I have memorized. Not by seeing the map, but by playing through them so often when I did.
Yes they are difficult, but they are supposed to be. That =IS= the point of the game. To be challenging.
heracles not hercules
Guess I'm the only one likes the ds game😔
Same fictional character
Sista Jinx Thomas Likewise. Weird ass story that clearly seems to use Greek mythology as an afterthought though.
I thought the gameplay was interesting, what with the special enhanced monsters that show up occasionally. Been meaning to try out the rest of the series as well, after messing around with 3 for a bit.
It was sometimes spelled Heracles.
@@MarxasThomas It was...okay? I wouldn't call it awful but it lacked the charm of the first games and played more like a generic anime JRPG that _happened_ to be set in Greece. III is probably the best in the series. I and II are fun for what they are and IV isn't bad but feels like a huge slog.
I feel like I'm the only person who actually enjoyed the final stretch of FF3. Sure, it required a bit of grinding, but most of it was covered by the fact that the best strategy is to slowly ransack the place of its treasure, with each visit sending you a bit further inside. Then, once you get to Eureka and get the best jobs (and a free healing point!) it becomes fairly smooth sailing. Felt godlike to basically steamroll everything with two hastened Ninjas and two Sages summoning Bahamut every turn. Nothing stands in your way! And you didn't need to get to max level in order to conquer it all (unlike FF1, I can never beat the NES version of that game without maxing out to level 50 using Warmechs in the Robot Tower place).
Actually finished Phantasy Star awhile back for a review (wink wink) and I did it old-school while drawing maps and all. Baya Malay was a nightmare and I'm not doing it again!
Awesome video! I've played all the old ff games, and their fantastic remakes, so I can definitely agree with this list. Black marsh was a huge spike in ff1, and to me the earth dungeon gets me cause of the birds with their stone effect on their attacks. Ice also has instant death, but its later so your a little more leveled and it's so short.
Zelda 2 has become a favorite of mine since I played it recently, and while it's tough as nails, I don't think the mountain was the hardest part of the game, but I guess I also played it in the age where theres guides everywhere on the internet for everything, I can't complain compared to the fans who played it back in the 80s.
Lastly, I was surprised to see #1, simply because I havent played the other RPGs on the list, so while I have slogged through the end of ff3, I didnt think it would be that high compared to other NES games. I've also played the remake on the ds and its iOS port many times, and while it's not as difficult as the original at all, it's my fav ff to replay and the final dungeon in the remake is just the right difficulty for me that I love going back and beating it over and over. Dont know how soon I'll go back to the original, but the final dungeon in the remake to me is peak final dungeon in both length, difficulty, and presentation, 10/10.
Mt. Itoi in EB:B was also a monster. Especially the second half, when you're above-ground. It's like they had 20 leftover enemy data slots and decided "Hey, why don't we just give them all the strongest attacks and abilities?"
If you die to Giegue the first time (as I did) you have to make your way up the mountainside yourself, without the extra protection from the robot. Not a fun time
Phantasy Star 2 - the final few dungeons were hella complex with a ridiculously high enemy encounter rate!
Its about 8 bit games... isn't that a 16 bit
6:05 - Yeah, Sega RPGs had a reputation of being really hard. But Phantasy Star II was probably the hardest game in the series.
I hated ps2 dungeons, only played through that game once, but it's actually a 16 bit game
I managed to beat Phantasy Star with extreme amounts of help from a FAQ a number of years ago. Knowing what awaits you in that game, I honestly think that playing it could be considered a form of torture if you have no help. It's not just Baya Malay, the whole game is a gigantic trap of labyrinthian mazes that features all of the things you described in the video - Baya Malay just happens to be the biggest one! There's like 5 other dungeons that are almost as bad as that one before it! There's even a dungeon on Dezolis where you can fall into a room and be forced to reset because there is no way out!
Just imagine if you for a person having committed a serious crime and instead of traditional jail time, your probation officer locks you in a room with nothing but an old TV and a sega master system with a copy of phantasy star but with no paper, no pens, no computer/internet, or anything to write on or use. Then your probation officer tells you that if you can beat the game (meaning that Dark Falz is beaten, not just Lassic!), you can go home free. Think you could handle it?
Not many people are aware nowadays, but the original FinalFantasy came with not only an incredibly detailed instruction manual, but also several different sheets of paper. On those sheets were maps of the worst dungeons, tables showing how much XP and gold enemies gave, lists showing what classes could learn which spells, and a complete list of gear, along with who can equip what
It was effectively a good gameFAQs page, long before the site bled into reality
I still think the Ice Cave in Final Fantasy 1 should have made this list only because the sheer number of monsters that can cast or strike with instant death effects or the gangs of frost wolves popping out and all spamming the Frost attack nailing everyone for 20-40 damage each wiping everyone except mayyyybe the Fighter or Black Belt if they're high enough in level. But they'll certainly die in the next encounter. That cave is sheer hell and is the hardest to get through with everyone still alive at the end. Also! You have to go through it twice if you want the Floater which is the sole purpose of going in there in the first place!
The cave to rhone was crafted by satan himself, I swear.
Or a Hargon equivalent
OMG, that FF 3 dungeon is crazy long. I played through an English-translated ROM of that game not too long ago. Being somewhat of a purist, I played on a reproduction cartridge with no save states, just the regular battery save. At least there's the outside part after the first section where you can save, but it's still a LONG way to the end of the game from there.
Hope you were wearing your cape!
I'm a simple guy. I see Glory of Herceles in the preview, I click. One of my favorite underrated classic JRPG franchises next to Phantasy Star.
Never really had a problem with the Marsh Cave, to be honest. The hardest dungeon in clasic FF for me is probably the one where you had to be minified to even traverse, basically letting even random encounters 1 shot you.
I love Crystalis. That being said, some of the mazes were tedious.
Cave to Rhone was pretty insane. Required a lot of memorization and grinding before-hand but somehow I made it through
Oh god that cave was a royal pain In the ass. Especially since if u plan to get the thunder sword you have to do the dungeon all over again. Dragon warrior 2 was in my opinion the hardest of the 4 nes games. But i enjoyed that game very much.
Link: *Throws self at red Daira with no sense of timing, strategy, or self-preservation*
"These enemies are the worst."
Gotta disagree, Great Palace is WAYYY worse than Death Mountain. Worst 8-bit dungeon imo
Final Fantasy 1 is to this day the hardest game that I've ever played. I remember having to draw on a notebook all the ways to the enemy on a dungeon. I also remember that on the last dungeon you could get a sword but to get to the coffin you had to fight every single boss of each dungeon.
I loved marsh cave, it was so hard. I loved in the early games how you had to go all the way back out of the dungeon after you killed the boss and you couldn't revive people. I didn't think earth cave was that bad actually. The Zelda two dungeon was super epic and for me the High Point in the entire game
Overall, these are some really good picks. Although I confess fondness for Goa Fortress. Baya Malay is some grade-A bullcrap as far as dungeon designs. And the Road to Rhone. Dear God, the Road to Rhone. Great video, I enjoyed it.
The road to Rhone is truly in the running for hardest JRPG dungoen ever created, to this day. In fact, nothing else on this list even comes close to its bullshittery.
just found your channel and love your retro top 10 lists!
The Sea Cave in Dragon Warrior 2 was pretty tough too.
Lol! The Shrine of Rubiss?
Lol no, I meant the cave with the lava floor and the maze layout with tons of stairways, filled with enemies that drain your MP. You find the Eye of Malroth in this place.
Uh yuck ok yea I remember that place!
ryogo yeah mp draining was not fair
The other fun part about the Marsh Cave is that you need to buy those potions one at a time from the item shop (assuming that you're playing the NES version). You can speed this up for Heal potions by using a controller with turbo to press A repeatedly, but the Pure potion was second on the list, so that doesn't work.
It's such a shame that cave to Rhone is so unbalanced because DQ2 is an amazing game. (even if Cannock is completely useless)
Yeah the snes version made tbe Prince of Cannock at least somewhat useful
You should try Faria for the NES. Those dungeons are the stuff of nightmares.
Of all the 8-bit dungeons I remember, the one that sticks out in my mind for being out of place hard was the Cave West of Noaniels in DW3. The dungeon's bottom floor was so hard because of the mushrooms that have a group sleep breath that they put a complete magic/hp heal spring in the cave, but with some bad RNG you still RIP.
Never thought number 1 was that tough, but perhaps that is because the game seems designed for you to make use of Ninjas and Sages to have an easy time of it.
The Cave of Darkness always felt worse to me; a chore to get any kind of decent experience, long..., and feels like filler blocking your path towards better parts of the game.
There is a small cheat that will definitely help with the "path to Rhone" cave in DQ2: a turtle-like monster that has an innate reflective cover that you can exploit by having your spell casters use that MP-THIEVING ability which returns to the caster and replenishes their MP.
Does anyone remember Faxanadu for the NES? Now the dungeons/ dwarf monsters in that game were nightmare fuel.
That's an excellent list.
I definitely would have to include the Mirage Tower/Floating Castle combo and the Temple of Chaos Revisited from Final Fantasy 1 on that list.
I also would add getting into Pandemonium and finishing Pandemonium in Final Fantasy II is a big challenge.
Last but not least if you don't have any FAQ guides many dungeons especially when going through the Ice Cave to get to the Final Tower and beating the Final Tower in
Faria: A World of Mystery and Danger would test the core of your gaming patience. lol
Thanks for sharing. :)
Recently discovered your content, I am a huge fan of your Top 10 lists! Keep up the great work!
On Marsh Cave: Wizard / Piscodemon doesn't have instant death attacks. That's Sorcerer / Mindflayer, the purple palette swap. Wizards just have a ferocious attack. Marsh Cave isn't that bad a dungeon on it's own, I would argue; it just requires lots of grinding because the Elftown weapons and magic are fuxpensive. If you grind Ogre/Creep instead of using hitting the Peninsula of Power with FIR2, you can easily end up spending several hours grinding for those Mithril weapons and Level 4 spells. Also, level 1-2 offense spells are useless against mobs (being single-target only) and by that point pretty weak in general.
Ff8's underwater lab should at LEAST be an honorable mention. If you aren't aware of the blue light causing encounters, you drudge through several levels of random encounters with every step you take.
FF4'S magnetic dungeon is really annoying too. No metal. Only wooden weapons.
This was 8 bit era dungeons. PS1 and 16 bit era have its own videos
Awesome video. Surprised its not more popular. It popped up in my recs so maybe youre now in the algorithm
For me it's the Ice cave in FF1. Those bleepin Sorcerers and Dark Mages suck. And, to this day, I can't understand why the developers had the Dark Mages guarding Cloth instead of the flame sword. Blows the mind -_-
OMG the Earth Cave. One of my friends wanted to play this game but was the type that would ask you what they were supposed to do every 5 seconds. When we got here, he was furious with me when I told him he had to go back out after beating the vampire. I couldn't convince him that it was just the way it was done. He said "Why didn't we just fight the boss when we were THERE?"
Man, Crystalis was one of my favourites growing up, even though the only way I could ever beat it was using a glitch to get past some guards blocking the way into a town. I don't remember it being overly difficult, but that might just be nostalgia softening the harder edges.
Great video!!!
Duncan's factory without a map = death wish
There is no way to know this until you've already done it once, but I recall that the rightmost ladder going up gets you to the end, so it feels less like a maze with such a simple trick.
The encounter rate is still disgusting though, and first time with no help is hell.
If you didn't use the strategy guide and maps that came with Phantasy Star II on Sega Genesis, good luck getting through those dungeons. Not to mention that the 2nd and 3rd dungeons(Tower of Nido and Biosystems Lab) feature a random encounter with two enemies called "Blaster" and they have a high chance of surprising your party. It's only attack hits the entire party for massive damage which can result in a party wipe before even getting a chance to attack.
One of my favorite 16 bit games ... and i didn't get the walk thru book cus my cousin beat the game then let me borrow it . I spent for ever just to find out the garbage dump had a second opening but seriously the first time you go to (uzo?) to a planet of ice and cant find your way to the to surface ugh wrong exit
The earth cave in FF1 was a real wakeup call as a kid especially when i mistakenly stepped into the hall of giants. I did not know every step was a fight with said giants and boy did i unceremoniously die. The cave to Rhone in DW2 was just brutal! I hated its layout, the pits and the feeling of it never ending. Many 8 bit JRPGs really hand you your own ass!
**Cave to Rhone Intensifies**
10 utter buttfucks at every turn, walk 1 space in the wrong direction and BAM you're ejected to the beginning or the previous floor, encounter a Killer Machine and you're pretty mich done for regardless of your party's status.
I'm shocked that the cave to Rhone wasn't the top spot, or that Pandemonium from Final Fantasy II wasn't on here. Very solid list, good that FF1s Ice Cave wasn't on here, since it is relatively easy to get to, and isn't a giant maze.
Esturk's lair from Dragon Quest IV should be on here. That place will destroy newer players if they aren't leveled enough.
I remember when I was a kid hearing my sister actually shouting in frustration at Death Mountain once. And yeah, that Final Fantasy 3 final dungeon? Still haven't gone back to that after losing to the end boss over five years ago.
Gonna have to correct you... monster rooms were not exclusive to FF2. They also found their way into FF4 to a degree in the tower of Bab-il, but usually had a chest in them. Sometimes they didn't, but the rooms had greatly increased monster rates so that you'd often fight 1 or 2 battles just going in and out.
Also, Heracles, not Hercules.
Also, Sylx, not Slyx.
Ultima... the game was a Dungeon... no seriously I would get so frustrated by dying from weak crap outside of town I would choose to fight towns people only to be schooled by them even worse (what were the purpose of heroes in a world where all blacksmiths are bosses and every commoner a mid boss).
Oh god I remember the earth cave in FF1. I played that when I was 6 years old and remember the troll hallway. Every step you take you fight a tough battle and there had to be like 20+. Once you reach the end, it turns out to be pointless cause it led you back to the beginning of the cave.
Like WTF! What is the point of torturing you like that and making you feel like this has to be the right way. Oh man the rage. Also I could never beat the final boss and it took like an hour to get to him each attempt. I tried to grind for levels but eventually got tired of doing that and gave up.
"...cast Sacrifice, killing your entire party with no recourse"Okay I have 3 problems with this complaint.
1. Gold Batboons are very rare encounters in SE Rhone. It's only in the North and Western areas that they really appear with any amount of reliability, and you have to go past the shrine of saving, free healing and resurrection to get there.2. The Ai cannot under any circumstances use Sacrifice unless they are below 25% HP. So focusing Single target and utitlizing Defence to maximize your damage on one at a time is a good idea. As is...3. StopSpell. Gold Batboons are suceptible to StopSpell. I shouldn't have explain this one.
The Green Dragons in the Cave are much worse to deal with because of their breath attacks, especially if they gang up on you. But in the NES version you can get multiple Water Flying Clothes so even that isn't all that bad even if it does border on an exploit.
your boss strat for wandering monsters is great
@@RW77777777 Hey you wanna just blindly mash the attack button that's no skin off by back, but don't go crying when the punishes you for it.
3:25 it's HERACLES, not HERCULES. Am I the only one in the universe who knows his Greek name?
The Piscodemons/Wizards don't insta-kill you, they just hit hard, plus they're weak to Lit2, it murders them. Plus you can use Ruse/Invis to become impossible to hit.