I've come to a new appreciation for Superman, because he is the superhero who's allowed to grow and get married and have children. Everyone says Superman is so unrelatable, but ironically he has become the relatable character Peter Parker used to be.
But he's unrelatable. I can't relate to Sun God who's immortal and possess dozens of powers. For example, money aside, I can relate to Batman who worked to the top of his physique. I can relate to Spider-Man, loser with no job, who can still get shot if he doesn't react quick enough. But I can't relate to Sups, because he's "this needs to be done? Done" character
@looniemoonie5955 But there is relatability tho; he's a man who tries to fit into a world that differs from him. He, despite his objective superiority, almost always tries to help and find the good in people. He fights for everyone, good or bad. There are aspects of relatability with Superman as a character. Just like there's relatability with nearly every character. To argue otherwise is silly at best. Misinfo at worst.
@looniemoonie5955 You can relate to a psychotic, violent, billionaire madman who dresses like a bat? You can relate to someone who was just born with the perfect genes to achieve physical perfection? You can relate to someone who just mastered centuries worth of multipule sciences in 20 years? Man, shut up. Batman is a Gary Stu. Literally worse than Rey Skywalker. Y'all are just dumb manchildren that deny reality. Just like Batman himself.
It's almost amazing how much of an inverse Clark is to Peter at this point. He's been in a married relationship with Lois for literal decades now, and not even the New 52 retcon could wash it away forever. They have a son whom they love and has grown up to be a hero in his own right, and they recently took in more kids. I'm not caught up on the most recent comics, but they really seem to be pushing the Superman Family aspect, having all members of the Kent family and even extended family and friends, like Connor Kent or John Henry Irons or Kong Kenan, all of them working together closely. It hasn't been an easy journey. Clark has struggles just like everyone else, powers notwithstanding. But he and his family actually get to be _happy._ "Relatability" is one of those writing aspects that I've come to think people need to be more careful with, and I'm of the opinion that it doesn't always have to rely on pain or suffering in a character. Trials build character, yes, but piling on too much troubles can just drown a story in misery. And by now, Peter Parker is all but lying at the bottom of the ocean.
@@looniemoonie5955 People just parrot the line that Superman is unrelatable because they've heard it so often that the whole thing has just become a big circular argument. He had to work to build a healthy and mutually respectful and loving relationship with Lois. He's constantly having to make excuses to sneak away that affect his relations and his standing with his boss negatively, and was doing it decades before Peter Parker was. He's a dad for crying out loud; how is that not relatable? Personally I find him a lot more relatable than Batman, who has more money than the global GDP and a bigger budget than the entire US military. He can somehow own a never ending arsenal of superweapons that includes things like a suit of armor powered my miniaturized red giants; a never ending fleeting of disposable military grade land, marine, and air vehicles; high tech secret bases and safe houses everywhere on earth, satellites in orbit, and secret bases and labs on the moon containing enough firepower to actually detonate the entire moon; and all that without putting a noticeable dent in his bank account. You think that is relatable but Superman isn't?! And his powers are not a magic instawin button. Bulletproof skin or the ability to fly do magically solve every conceivable problem, and has frequently been pushed to the brink and beyond by villains like Brainiac, Darkseid Lex Luthor, etc. And there are many other popular characters that are as power as Superman, like Goku, Thor, or Hulk; but nobody ever says they're unrelatable. There is no amount of punishment Wolverine can't heal from, and he has even recovered from being reduced to nothing but his skeleton, and yet I never heard anyone claim Wolverine isn't relatable. People don't think Superman is unrelatable because he's too powerful. They say that because they are mindlessly parroting everyone else they've heard say it, who in turn are also mindlessly parroting what they've heard.
I have the exact same problem with recent Spider-Man movies as much as I love Spider-Man no way home and the animated spider verse movies I hope to god that the next mcu spider-man movie with tom holland is a back to basics Spider-Man story no multiverses and no infinite variants of Spider-Man I just want a good old fashion grounded Spider-Man film about him fighting crime in New York
Yeah, it was so relatable reading it as a teen, after coming back from a hard day at school, knowing that tomorrow I will do the same, probably fight against my best friend's insane father, a russian immigrant enfatuated by rhinos or maybe even fight against a black sludge that loves/hates me
I hope No Way Home keeps being a "once in a life time" event for the live action movies, I'm already done with the multiverse and just want the relatable/grounded spidey drama back
@@ayrtonjoga Seeing as DC just released The Flash impossible the worst part is when those comics started out they were more grounded and relatable than Spidey’s but now they’re far more super over complicated even when they’re good which isn’t often anymore.
Sad to think that bright bit optimism you had 5 years ago for Spencer’s run got completely crushed, I know that feeling all too well with the things I’m passionate about.
@@imnotkiddinggNah on the contrary star wars animated has always been as amazing as ever. Wonder if tales of Jedi is gonna get another entry. Maybe some of the stories in visions are gonna get expanded upon. Ahsoka is looking to be a star wars rebels sequel in live action. But speaking of star wars, this is a pretty weird take, as long as good content comes out nothing's really gonna change and starwars still is pretty much thriving.
@@govnorelven4036 gurl i love ur optimism maybe u have a point lol animation department stays carrying, i just mean the way ppl feel about it is different its been polarized and nobody's excited abt the new rey movies, like luke skywalker is DEAD remember that
@@imnotkiddingg I’m excited about the film because it’s not going to be trying to redo the OG trilogy and focus on being it’s own thing. When ROSW ended I felt like I wanted to see what was going to happen next for the first time during the sequel trilogy. It’s a shame that so many won’t give it a chance because of the messy trilogy.
And honestly, he didn't need to. As cool as it was seeing the Sinister 66 (or whatever you want to call them) all coming for Peter and him somehow handling them, it was in service to a plot that dragged WAY too long and ultimately went... kinda nowhere. If they'd at least actually reversed OMD, that'd be one thing, but they didn't. Spencer half-teased it, only for everything to be thrown out so Ben Reilly could be Spider-man for a while again before even getting to Paul.
The sad thing is, I think Spidey's slide into endless repetition began much earlier. I consider the 1990s the time when things really began to move backwards for Spidey. Aunt May's death was beautifully written, MJ was pregnant and Ben Reilly was around to handle Spidey stuff while Peter finally could focus on other responsibilities besides being Spider-Man . Then in one fell swoop, they retconned May's death as an actress posing as her, induced a miscarriage for MJ and killed off Ben while bringing back Norman Osborn. Sure, things still happened to change the status quo here and there, but the longer Spidey is around, the less things stick. Imagine a world where Spidey had been allowed to keep his forward momentum... I could spend months writing a pitch for that.
I have the issues with Spiderman being Ben Reilly during that time right before the whole Onslaught thing. And they still are some of my favorites. (Also his costume in that one is by far my fave) And then years later when i went to find the comics to see how the birth had went and how Ben and Peter had evolved i found out that that didn't happen.... By god that is exactly wwhere Spider-Man ended for me.
Yeah, that would have been the end point for me, but the clone saga was so needlessly convoluted and annoying that I dropped off of the book and started reading the stuff that came out before I was born. Then at the time I finished all of that Ultimate and the JMS run started and both of those books were so unbelievably good with the exception of the end of the JMS run. Spider Man's end for me is right before Civil War.
@@vincentbatten4686 The First Civil War seems like a better place for Peter to have ended in. He and MJ were married, Aunt May finally kicked the bucket, and Peter SHOULD have been forced to live with his consequences, not whatever One More Day was.
there is a spidey now that never lost his forward momentum (story-wise), Peter B Parker. Possibly one of the greatest Spidey adaptations ever put on screen!
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
That must be crushing, being forced to create a story you don’t want to create and being blamed for the idea. It honestly makes me feel bad for Zebb and what he must be going through.
Thats true. But even without the executive meddling Zebs writing is still pretty bad sadly. which is disappointing cause i like his ant man stuff a little bit
True. I'm pretty sure he apologized before all of this shit hit the fan. I decided to simply blame marvel going forward. I hadn't read the run I just got tid bits here and there. Thor and venom have been my highlights so far.
@@Ando1428 honestly my favorite run right now is Moon Knight by Jed McKay and Ghost Rider by Peter Benjamin, I wish more people talked about Marvels good runs, but Spider-Man gets all the press.
It is especially bad in this case cause this is the Spider Man fandom we’re talking about. You know, the people that tried to sue Insomniac cause they took out some puddles? If I was Zebb, I’d be fearing for my LIFE rn
@@gabrielperez4184 well that's because he's popular. Black widow had quite a few good runs I heard since civil war 2. Hadn't had the chance to catch up for her. I liked the inhumans but I hadn't picked up anything since the black funeral.
It's kind of funny how Peter B. Parker from the Spiderverse films, who initially comes across as kind of a shlub, grows more as a character in the span of two movies than Peter Parker has in the mainstream comic series in a long time. I will also add that Marvel could very easily choose to let Peter Parker grow up again, considering we have the younger Miles Morales in the main universe and several other spider people as well that could please the younger demographic. But instead they choose to perpetually keep Peter in a stage of arrested development.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
@@spider-man9118 This isn't the place for Biblical Discourse. Sharing your faith happens through deep relationships with real people, not in internet threads with somebody you will never meet.
This is why I'm getting into Invincible. Consistent artist/writers, a linear story with no tie ins, no editorial mandates, and a story that has a defined ending. It's so refreshing.
To be fair, I did kinda enjoy Mephisto revealing that he did OMD purposefully so that Mayday Parker would never be born, because he saw the future and saw her defeating him in an ultimate apocalypse. That was kinda interesting and in-character for him.
I just appreciate the shout out to Mayday. Honestly rolling the MC2 characters into the mainline universe would be a great idea at this point, especially Mayday. You'd get a hip new teenage girl Spider-person, Peter could be a happily married father and mentor character.
@@BenitoSwagolini-kf3wh Well, the problem there is that we already have Miles, who SHOULD already be that. The fact that both the movies and the games have both synergized with each other to make Peter a mentor to Miles so that he can independently mature while Miles handles the coming of age stuff should be a slam dunk for both synergizing the comics with other, more popular media and doing what the fans want but Marvel seems entirely unwilling to just take the jump.
i like that too. It felt kinda anime Jesus in a way, but for a character/concept so hated by Marvel editorial, i think it works and more Mayday is always nice.
It fixed a big issue aside from the character assassination part, which is why the fuck would he care about Peter and MJs marriage, so at least there is that
I'll be honest, the jokes that the retcon had the internet make replaced the original jokes for Sins Past. "Norman Osborne fucked Mysterio dressed as Gwen Stacy" is one of the most funny jokes regarding a retcon I've ever heard of.
Norman Osborne: And that's how I've cucked Spiderman! Venom: ....why would you have sex with Mysterio instead of just having Mysterio using his powers to make Peter think she was cheating on him? Norman:.....
More and more I see people saying "Miles is the spider-man people care about now," and looking strictly at the comic runs both are getting, I really see why. Miles is at least getting to learn and grow and do new things, whereas Peter just...well, watch the video.
Yep. Comic miles still needs some better villains and I think giving him his own clone saga was a mistake but the spider-verse movie was great as well as his game and since he is a younger character it's clear that he has more potential to grow and develop. He's simply more intriguing because he has a different home life and family dynamics. His relationship with uncle Aaron alone makes him more intriguing than Peter.
The fact that Spider-Verse had him get a real divorce and kill off aunt may and then later made Peter a dad and everyone loves it feels fitting how marvel is shitting the bed
I find it ironic that Venom has become more relatable then Spider-man. Venom actually had character development that was carried over story to story that wasn’t done away literally a year later and his current stories are actually pretty good.
If you disregard Dylan being boring as shit, and the overly convoluted time loop stuff with Eddie and Finnegan/Medirius/Bedlam, and doing big Carnage event for like the fifth time in 5 years, and just everything connected to the awfulness of Knull and the King in Black story...yeah, the Venom (and connected symbiote) books are pretty good.
616 Spider-Man has been many things to us throughout the years. A role model, an icon, a cool superhero with a cool costume. But as we got older, he became more than that. He became a voice to us. Who spoke to us through his hardships and struggles and pushed us through our accomplishments and triumphs. It’s like he was an old friend whom we admired and looked to for guidance and comfort. But as of late? It’s like seeing that friend being abused and mistreated so badly, all because the people that shelter him either don’t care or care too much that they keep him to themselves. We as fans see how much it’s affecting him. And it hurts.
What's sad? Is that meanwhile at DC, Nightwing is finally getting the immense respect he deserves. He canonically surpassed Batman to become a better leader, fighter and overall hero of the verse. He's also leading the Justice League while the founding members are away, The heroes all agreed there was no other choice. I've always said that Spider-Man and Nightwing are Marvel's and DC's versions of the same character or at least as closest possible. If one hugely influential fan favorite character can get through respect they deserve why can't the other? It seems Marvel's inability to let Peter Parker grow Is the only answer.
Tom Taylor is writing the Nightwing books now. He previously wrote a lot of the Injustice comic run from 2012 or 13 and he really has shown that most of the time he can MASTERFULLY handle DC characters. Yes okay in the Injustice storyline, Dick Grayson dies in a very shockingly stupid way but I don't think that was Tom's fault and it was probably Dan Didio or whoever was in charge of the books at the time who told him to write that shit, like "We gotta kill Nightwing" and they're like "Okay... why? And how?" and then "I don't care how or why, he's got to die in this story." But all in all, Nightwing is in great hands right now. It's on par with the Scott Snyder's run of Batman books for the New 52. Tom Taylor is an excellent writer. Hope they bring him on board for the movies.
@psnfailout000 True, Nightwing does rely on his acrobatics and his speed but Batman's reaction times and his brawling fighting moves are insanely powerful.
Great (and depressing) breakdown of both the specific ridiculousness of recent spidey and the effect narrative stagnation can have on even the most dedicated reader
DC solved a lot of these problems once Dan Didio was fired. Bringing on younger people into editorial not stuck in the same ancient mindset is how problems like these get fixed.
That what I been trying to say they need to fire the current editor for fresh new editors who grew up with a married Spiderman and like character growth
DC still has problems, let's not beat around the bush but I think part of why Marvel is doing this is to prop up Miles. If Peter died again no one would mourn his loss
No age of the person doens't matter although experience really helps, its having passion for the work and not just using the IP for your own ends and thus pushing people away.
Imagine how Spencer's run must've felt to guys like me who didn't even know much about the history it was trying to retcon. At some point I was just lost and didn't care to finish it
That’s the worst part about the run. It’s final 5 issues are completely unreadable to anyone who didn’t read a twenty year old story and a 30 year old story.
@@ianbruno237 yeah, but not everything has to be convoluted and straight retcons. New readers are still picking up these books, there has to be a balance that these don't have
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
Virgin Spider-Man comics: 16 years of spinning their wheels so Mayday can never exist to punch Mephisto. Chad Spider-Verse movies: Mayday is a baby and Peter is Maes Hughes.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
Holy crap that final monologue spoke to me as a huge Spidey fan. I love the adaptations of this character, but I’ve also become quite jaded to the comic book as of recently. It’s the reason why I mainly read IDW sonic and Shonen Jump manga. Because those stories felt like they were going somewhere. Hell, it’s why I read all of invincible and loved it even more than Spider-Man Superheroes deserve better respect
@@outermeowven Sorry I haven't seen this sooner dude. So after a couple years of the X-Men comics being stagnant, a writer named Jonathan Hickman essentially did a semi soft reboot of the title that asked the question of what if mutants finally fought back against their oppressors and started a new nation, formulating their own language and culture? While the mutant species having a new nation isn't a new idea, Hickman made it to where the comic went full force on the concept. His run began in 2019 and ended roughly around 2021 but the impact still remained as he allowed his team to continue on with the story. Basically, the X-Men are currently in what is known as the "Krakoan era" named after the island the nation was founded upon.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
I think that this highlights the reason that I’ve always enjoyed cape comics in ‘Elseworlds’ format. Just a dedicated creative team going nuts with a story that’s only priority is being that, a good story regardless of current continuity. It’s one of the reasons I adore Spider-Man Life Story so much. Peter got to live a life, and he got his ending.
On that note, I wish more people treated TV shows, movies, games, and other adaptations as Elseworlds since they basically are. I've seen so many good adaptations getting written off and dismissed just because they don't follow the source material exactly.
This current Spider-Man run actually made miss Dan Slott. It achieved the damn near impossible Crazy thing is Chip Zdarsky was like the perfect choice for Amazing too. Spider-Man's appearances in his Daredevil run wrote him as a more put together, matured person than in his own ongoing, and his Spectacular run is the kind of stuff I love about how his stakes vary so much in scope like he's superhero Seinfeld. Its actually depressing
His storytelling isn't always the best, but Dan Slott consistently has good ideas that shake up the status quo and basically force Peter to grow up. Dan Slott's a thousand times better than Zeb Wells...
@@runbaa9285 that is when Slott isn’t being reductive & writing Peter as a man-child Slott’s writing had a lot of highs, but it had some pretty rough lows too
As someone who’s had many passions devolve into toxic or untenable relationships, this video hits home so hard. When you stand up for your principles and abandon the things that brought you joy, it’s the toughest feeling in the world. The comic industry is accelerating their death at rapid speeds by kneecapping the development of their most popular characters for the sake of “status quo” or “universe reset”. Thank you for this video, and I sincerely hope you take time with the things that bring you joy, rather than drudging through misery ragging on Zeb Well’s run like the rest of the Internet lol.
@@KaminoKatie and it's all because they're not only doing what the American industry used to be great at, but they've actually learned how to adapt to their business model to the demands of the modern market. The American industry started going astray when it stopped being run by salt of the earth people who had business savvy and just wanted to tell a good story.
My favourite comic book character of all time is Ben Reilly and he's been tbe biggest victim of this era outside of Peter himself. It's just a miserable time to be a fan of these characters because I can't see them being fixed any time soon right now.
I truly feel bad for these writers Could you imagine being forced to compromise your vision for a story? That’s so sad There’s nothing worse for a story than becoming stale because even when something is bad it can still be something of note or at least something to learn from but this is just sad
I just wanted to say, thank you Xavier. I've been following you pretty much since the beginning and, being pretty much the same age, I always felt so connected to you and your videos genuinely feel so cozy. I'm not lying, at least once every few weeks I'll binge the whole Spider-Man games retrospective, and you have seriously been someone I look up to for the longest time. I know this comment doesn't have much to do with the video (even though I whole-heartedly agree with you), but I just wanted to thank you for basically being like a slightly younger brother I've never had. Just another kid who shares the same passions as me. My girlfriend's pregnant and I've genuinely considered naming my kid Xavier and I KNOW IT'S WEIRD but that's just how much you as a person mean to me! I'm sure we'll never meet but still, I felt I had to tell you all of this for some reason heh :)
People have asked me for years why I stopped reading Marvel and DC, and this video is point by point every reason I had to give up. Spidey is the worst example of it but this is how so much of comics work now and it just isn't fun anymore. So thanks for making this, it felt good to hear someone else put these thoughts into words.
Comics from the big two as a whole, particularly over the last decade or so, have had so many retcons, reboots, recharacterizations, etc. that it reached a point where every tease for a big event or change had my stomach in knots; I was just dreading what stupid thing would come and snatch away a character or run I enjoyed. I pretty much checked out when Marvel had The King in Black being the umpteenth event to derail multiple books I was reading while DC did the same with Dark Knights: Death Metal which was clearly leading into yet ANOTHER universe reboot... About the only good thing that came of the latter was Super Boy Prime getting a proper redemption and happy ending, so I took the meta hint and decided to stop reading to make sure things stayed that way.
this is the reason that, while i love the characters, i hate the media. the fact characters arent allowed to grow and develop, instead just being rubberbanded back to the starting line after a few years because of status quo just feels like a massive waste of time and money.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck." 8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in princes. Psalm 118:8-9 reject lust, embrace God Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
@@GodzillaMendoza follow-up question based on your video and title: should spider-man be over? I mean obviously he will never be allowed to rest so long as there's money to be made, but should he?
@@futureboy314 Maybe the original continuity can end. Like I said in the video, I find Transformers and TMNT appealing because they know when to stop and reboot so the stories stay more fresh
I remember falling in love with your spiderman games retrospective back in the day, changes the way my brain analyzed media I'm nostalgic for. Now I'm out of high school and entering college this fall, glad to see you've never left TH-cam, keep creating!!
I understand the appeal of retconning and "fixing" Sins Past. It's one of the worst comics in Spider-Man history. It is a black mark on the book's history. But, this was not the way to do it. This is just stupid.
Honestly this phenomenon is probably part of why people latched onto Peter B so much when spiderverse came out. Everyone wants to see Peter get older and face a changing status quo, but the only times we get to see that is with spin-offs and alternate universes, because in the main universe they couldn’t even have MJ and Pete get split up naturally since that would have too much of an effect on them as characters, so instead there’s this over the top demonic nonsense so that they can go back to the status quo without actually effecting anyone instead of letting the book change, letting Peter grow
Absolutely correct. What's an even greater condemnation of the way things are is because we know they're self aware of that fact and are trying to give it to us...in a new Ultimate Universe comic, which I can almost guarantee will gain more interest and investment from what few people still read Big 2 comics anymore than the main book in mainstream continuity.
Shame that Zdarsky didn't want to continue writing on Spidey since no one understood what Spidey stories should be like more than him. Spider-Man Life Story and his run Spectacular are masterpieces.
I will always have a soft spot for Spencer run Strictly on the grounds if he is one of the very few writers to say “No this was stupid and should fixed” Like sheer fact he went out his way to correct Sins past and nearly OMD where other writer want to pretend that never happened deserves praise Heck sheer fact he brought up MJ’s Baby being kidnapped A character point that is never brought up again after it happened by MJ or Peter Shows just how much he cared What was needed after Spencer’s run was someone that had their eyes on the future someone that wanted to pick up the ball after Spencer and build to a new better status quo Sadly we didn’t get that
That initial "Will-they-won't-they" aspect had me on the edge of my seat for issue after issue. I've never had a comic make me feel so invested in a relationship like that. Then the issue dropped where they Do decide to give it another go, and I felt a rush of joy that I don't think I've ever really felt from reading a comic afterwards. Now that, that was some quality stuff.
This is the perfect video describing how Spider-Man felt like to me for quite some time. When the editorial keeps messing with my 3 favorite characters, being Ben Reilly, Pete and MJ, I don't have any drive to continue reading their stories. Mini-series like Humanity Agenda are great, but at the end of the day that's all they are, short stories that have "conclusions". All while the main book will continue to stagnate, eventually either getting a full-on reboot or outliving us all
This is so true. It's reason's like these that I typically stick to media like TV and Manga because at the very least the characters have the chance to grow and develop a story that could be good instead of trying to cram every idea a person can think of into one never ending story and ruining the flow of what was once special. Stories need endings.
I like to think the spider-girl comics are canon, cause thats the closest we will get to see Peter grow as a character, becoming a parent and loving husband and once in awhile helping mayday out with being a hero.
We already had one of those, twice in different universes. The one where Pete is retired and his daughter Mayday Parker is Spider-Girl and the other is from 'Renew your Vows' where Peter and MJ have a daughter, Annie May Parker and they all fight crime together.
This video was well worth the wait. Your thoughts are really well articulated and I honestly think a lot of folks in the fandom would benefit from doing what you've done and just move on from ASM. Its not worth the time it takes to read it. Life is too short to waste on something that makes you feel angry and/or empty. Thank you for coming to my Tedtalk
Peter being the young superhero in the modern age is stupid because he grow and changed over the course his story and we already have a young Spiderman of the modern age and his name is Miles Morales.
Just let him be an adult! Let him get married, have a kid, deal with juggling his responsibilities as Spider-Man with his responsibilities as a parent, a husband, a teacher! If you still wanna tell stories about high school drama, about college aged drama, MILES IS RIGHT THERE. Let Peter grow up for God’s sake.
@@cartoonishidealism582 I know right, Marvel made Reed and Sue parents, They made some of their X men characters into parents and They even made Venom and Deadpool dads But, Spiderman is where they draw the line.
The idea is that because it's Amazing Spider-Man they don't have to try which is maybe the most irritating mindset a creator can have, that they can just rest on the laurels of what came before and serve whatever slop they want.
This video resonated with me a lot Xavier, I feel like we’ve grown up together through shared maturity and burnout on caped comics for better or worse. It is unfortunate, but Peter Parker isn’t worth getting invested in anymore.
“Peter Parker isn’t worth getting invested in anymore.” Horrific, god-awful, shit-tier take. A few trashy comic runs isn’t enough reason to completely disregard the decades of legendary storytelling and cultural influence that we’ve had from this character.
@@wyatttalley2233 Bingo. You can say you’re not a fan of the current run. I understand some of the arguments why. But someone will eventually take over for Zeb Wells and write a different storyline. And if that run does well, post-mortem videos like these will be really dated in a few years.
@@wyatttalley2233 Still it's hard to root for a character when Marvel keeps constantly evoke the status quo of making Peter constantly miserable and a single man who won’t grown up. It was annoying when they did that in the clone saga, it's was annoying when they did it in One more day, and it's annoying here. Though I’m more mad at Marvel themselves the Peter, because clueless editors are afraid of any sort of change.
"Enraged fan is engaged fan" is a quote from one of the editors behind Spider-Man. I am 99 % sure it was Lowe, but, again, always double-check it. Another thing: don't worry about Dan Slott and don't take it very close to heart, Xavier. The guy is, ummmm... how can I phrase it. He's an INTERESTING fella. He looks up (yes, straight up searches) for any mentionings of him on social media and attacks said person even if he just slightly disagrees with them. He blocked, probably, thousands of people. He's very, and I mean, VERY active on Twitter, CBR, I assume some other places too (Reddit/4chan, too lazy to double check). It's like a kink of his or some kinda fragile ego. Don't get me wrong, he's written some of my all-time favorite comics, but the way he interacts with people... huge yikes. Can't handle any critique, even if it's solid.
@@guillesuperior they should manage their time and focus on writing plus don't interact with their fans outside of cons/interviews. This is straight up bullying what Slott does.
It’s crazy that the run ultimately retconned Sins Past because JMS wanted to do that with One More Day so he could get a victory out of writing the story but those in charge wouldn’t let him
I mostly agree with you and as a MJ fan as long time Spidey fan, the worst part is that the editors/creators seemingly can't let go or make their mind. They HAVE to keep bringing back Gwen and MJ, keep teasing fan with the possibility of Peter getting back together with MJ. It's like the madness of social media where people act as toxic and hateful as possible, because that is what get the most engagement and gets the most rewards, has taken over. At this point, as some one who has always liked Marvel more then DC? I am seriously considering switching teams. Because the whole Dawn of DC thing with Stargirl and kids form the Golden Age of Comics seems a lot better than anything Marvel is up to.
I appreciate what Nick Spencer was trying. Despite the problems, there were a lot of really enjoyable stuff. 1) The stories not about Kindred are good. Randy and Janice's relationship and their dads' responses felt like a good old story. 2) The demonic spider squad was such a powerful image. That cover is in my top 10 for Spider-Man ones. 3) The scene where Norman realized Ghost Spider was a parallel Gwen was really intense and nerve-wrecking. 4) The attempts to fix some bad stories were necessary. _Sins Past_ and Queenpin Felicia should have been fixed long ago. 5) Gibbon's death uniting all the animal-theme villains unite as an army under Vulture's leadership was so powerful. 6) I love these cool throwbacks to older villains like Slyde, the Tri-Sintinel, Sin-Eater, and the Lethal Legion. 7) The new villain teams (Sinister Syndicate, Savage Six, and the Sinful Six) are great additions to Spider-Man's rogues. 8) It was so wonderful to see Peter act mature and caring again after about a decade of Slott writing him as a man-child. The biggest problem is the pacing. Kurt Busiek did tons of fix stories during his Avengers run. The _Avengers Forever_ maxi is literally nothing but twelve issues of retcons to fix weird/bad stories. But he succeeded because his fixes were backed by cool action and character work; and were fairly easy to understand instead of going point-by-point to explain every single detail. Doing that just makes the comic feel more convoluted. In short, Spencer's run was great ideas with bad execution due to editorial mandate.
You know what pains me most about the current run by Wells is that I can't even identify what the point is. With most stories, even shit ones, you can usually pinpoint an arc or a theme somewhere. Even Spencer's storyline was trying to build towards SOMETHING plot wise. Feels like the only thing this story has are dumb and "shocking" moments designed to rile up the fanbase
I am a big fan of Spider-Man, ever since I was a kid. I watched all his movies, TV shows, and played the games, but I never read the comic. I did read the Spider-Girl comic in the library and I loved it. I remember thinking this was the current Spider-Man comic run, and I was excited at the idea of the movies or TV Shows eventually adapting this. Later I was disappointed to learn that this wasn't the main comic universe. The only time I was interested in reading the main comic was when Shattered Dimensions came out, and I wanted to read the comic version of those characters to learn more about them. My dad got me some old issues of the Amazing Spider-Man, and gave me volume 6 of Ultimate Spider-Man (the one with Venom). I was only interested in collecting all of Ultimate Spider-Man, as that seem like the easiest thing actually do, but I never got around to it. Now in present time, I can never see myself buying a Spider-Man comic. The character I love so much is ruined because of people behind the scenes who want to make Peter Parker "relatable". Any progression the character tried to had since the 90's has always been stopped. The Clone Saga was made just so Peter and MJ can start a family, with Ben Reilly taking up the mantle of Spider-Man. Only to end with Ben to dying, Norman coming back from the dead, Peter and MJ losing the baby, and Aunt May coming back from the dead. Peter and MJ were happily married, with Ultimate Spider-Man telling stories of a younger of the character. What does Marvel do? They made Peter make a deal with the devil to undo his marriage, just so he can save his Aunt May's Life. They did all of this because they wanted Peter to be "relatable" even though they were making a comic with a younger Spider-Man. I find it so funny that the games and movies are doing a better job at growing Spider-Man as a character. Aunt May dies in the PlayStation video game, in the Spider-Verse movie, and in the MCU. Peter is married, happy, and has a baby in Across the Spider-Verse. Meanwhile the comics refuses to grow Peter as a character. Superman has a son now, but Spider-Man can't have children? The only hope I have is that the popularity of baby Mayday will make the higher ups allow Peter and MJ to finally have a daughter in the main comics.
You know, Spider-Man comics could’ve been so much more than what they are now. So much missed potential due to bad writing and decisions. If it were up to me I would’ve kept Peter and MJ married and given them two kids, (Mayday being 5 and Ben being practically a newborn). We could keep Paul but make him fall in love with Carly, focus on the actual people in Peter’s life besides MJ and his family if they feel like it’s gone stale. I honestly wished this was the status quo for Peter as it would be interesting to see how this would react to storylines like Superior Spider-Man, ANAD etc. So much potential gone because Marvel is scared to show their flagship character act his age.
That apology you issued in the beginning was brilliant and hats off to you my man! That part about not wanting to be in either camp RESONATED with me. Geek culture consumers are too quick to complain and insult. There’s barely any room for real discourse anymore
While I do disagree over how Spencer's run was terrible, I do agree that the end was pretty bad. However I think the way Spencer characterizes Peter and his supporting cast was excellent and stayed true to who they are, especially with how Peter rightfully gets pissed off with Norman and how he used MJ to capture Kindred
I think his run gets way too much hate because of the ending lmao. Sure, it started dragging a lot because of the editorial, but the beginning of the run(firat 25 issues or so) is exactly what Xavier said he was hoping to receive
Absolutely. I think Nick Spencer wrote Peter Parker and his supporting cast far better than Dan Slott did and I maintain that it was a really solid (if imperfect) run until it cratered at the end.
Honestly I couldn’t agree more. You essentially summed up my entire feelings for Spider-Man comics right now. It genuinely hurts seeing characters that I love be dragged through the mud over and over. It’s honestly exhausting. I do agree we shouldn’t take our anger out on the writers. I may not agree with Wells current writing decisions but I don’t want death threats given. That’s cruel and immature. I will always love spider-man and will continue to love him and write stories that I would like to see but for now I’m just done with official ASM comics. Love your work, wish you and your wife the best :)
Wow....this was quite an emotional video I wasn't expecting it at all. While I initially thought you'd mostly go over the Well's run, it really paints to me two things: How much you've matured and respect comic writers and how the problems for this run started going downhill before Wells. Especially the whole Harry shenanigans. As an outsider of the comics, you've really shown me how frustrating this Spider-Man can be. While this may be my optimism speaking, I do think there'll be a writer who can steer away from this "cycle" that honestly won't show any signs of character bias. But only time will tell
I think Linkara stated it best when he said that the editorial at Marvel is a giant group of infantile manchildren that refuse to grow up and therefore refuse to allow their characters to grow up. That is paraphrasing from Linkara, sure, but it is basically how he and a bunch of people that used to like Marvel feel.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Miles' comics tend to be good with some small missteps along the way (i.e. making Ultimate Universe Kate Bishop a Hydra agent for some reason, but that's a moot point). I just enjoy his stories better now, mainly because it doesn't feel like editorial projecting their midlife crises onto Miles.
@@DasNordlicht91 For me it was the writing, I love the original comics and I've been rereading them for awhile now, (I got a few omnibuses!) and while reading I was reminded of why I'm happy Miles has been getting better writers for him. They've gone to places Bendis never did (getting tortured and a ton of other things going on in the Saladin run) and we're still going to get more with his current run with Cody Ziglar, after seeing Rabble and how she relates to Miles as a villain, I only want MORE! I'm sorry for the slight fanboyism but I've been really enjoying the Ziglar run as of late and with Ultimate Invasion coming soon, I'm just really excited to be a Miles Morales fan.
@@DraftyRum That isn't the case my guy. Peter was being sabotaged *years* before Miles was even created and even after he busted into the world of comics, Peter was still being sabotaged. The only reason this stupid theory about Peter being put down to prop Miles up is even floating around is because of the all of success Miles has been getting. In the 5 years since his first movie, Miles's comics has gotten way better writers, he's been noticed by main stream audiences around the world and he's gotten his own video game. And now with Across The Spider-Verse out he's getting even more success and recognition. I'm happy with all of it and I can't wait to see what's next for him. But this whole, "They're putting Peter down to prop Miles up." thing is just people scapegoating and blaming Miles for something that isn't his fault in the slightest. Marvel is to blame for what's going on with Peter Parker, that's on them. Not on a character who's just getting his recognition.
hearing xavier talk about the kindraid segment made me flabergasted and it melted my brain, the amount of plotwists after plot twist after plot twist geniully made me confused and made me question what was happening in that said moment
It’s truly so hard to put the frustrations of being a comic book fan into words, trying to voice opinions without sounding spiteful or finding some poor writer to make into a scapegoat. I truly value you taking the time to voice your thoughts and self awareness into a format we all enjoy on your channel. I’ve always enjoyed your thoughtfulness as you take the time to delve into the roots of what make a character of story great. I see you pal❤
14:00 I feel like this section is a good example of why Peter from Into the Spiderverse works so well. Yeah he’s old, yeah he grew up, yeah he has a kid, yet despite all that he still has his own issues with relationships and marriage, we end the film off with seeing him grow from a guy who struggles with his relationship and lets it utterly destroy him to a guy who realizes that he can’t let this get him down and he starts to take control of his life, he asks her out and eventually he has a kid. It’s great! It’s a nice resolution for him. That’s the thing about stories they can appeal to multiple audiences, they don’t have to just appeal to one. (Sorry if any of the info I say about the Spiderverse movie is inaccurate like when he has a kid and stuff, it’s been years since I watched it.)
@@mikemorro140 It’s more of a paradoxical issue. Stuff like the Tombstone arc, Peter and Felicia and even Dark Web are pretty fun when they work (I mean Jameson tricking demons that he’s one of them… by being himself? That sounds gold). And they don’t always involve MJ. But that storyline unfortunately hangs over everything due to its bizarre mystery box nature. Meaning things always come back around to Peter and MJ
@@benwasserman8223 The Jonah stuff was fun, but the rest of Dark Web on the Spider-Man side was a mess with the massive character assassination of Ben, and being honest Peter didn't really do shit. Peter and Felicia might be fun if their relationship wasn't so non existent, like Xavier complains about Peter and MJ barely being together in Spencer's run but Felicia has maybe played a big part in three issues of this run so far, and in two of those she was written by someone else
@@mikemorro140 Oh come on. Other than the Ben Reilly complaints, DW was pretty fun. Or at the very least the idea of sentiment, Demonic New York iconography gave me a lot of laughs.
The main problem lies in that the (sometimes) writers, and (definitely) the people in charge forget what it's like to be a kid, to be young, to not be an old and bitter rich person. They can't relate to anything or realize how people other than them think.
Unless you're talking about the Disney executives, nobody at Marvel Comics is getting rich doing what they do. They don't sell well enough for that, and it's not because they couldn't be. It's because the industry hasn't adapted their business model to the modern market, don't give a rip about what customers and fans they still have, they don't humble themselves enough to learn the right lessons from the success of their competitors (I don't mean DC, and I don't just mean manga), and they keep keep chasing gimmicks and social media fads thinking that's what's gonna get them new readers. As to the actual point of your comment, spot on.
I think a better idea instead of retconning. Would be to just write an alternate universe version of the story to flesh out the fan’s personal head cannon. Like if Spencer just wrote all of his retcons in an extremely similar alternate universe story with a snazzy new title, fans would’ve appreciated it more.
I kinda wish DC and Marvel did this more with their IP’s. Let different creative teams have their own versions of the universe to play with. DC has been doing this more in recent years with stuff like Black Label, and a lot of it has been pretty good.
As a spider-man fan what can you even read at this point? As much as I love old comics I'm getting sick of coming back to them out of desperation. I feel like a dog wiggling its tail to dog food I eat for breakfast lunch and dinner every day.
I got that epiphany for Batman a few years back. Even though all the Bat-family is allowed to change and evolve, Bruce himself is also stuck in a miserable statu quo. Whatever he feels, whatever he accomplishes, it will never matter. "It was Clayface in disguise, he was brainwashed by Scareceow, Ivy manipulated his emotions with pheromones". What even is the point of reading it anymore, might as well go back to random issues from the last century for the same reading experience. Got similar feelings for the ending of Planet Hulk too, this felt like such a blatant "reset button" for the character and everyrhing he went through. And even when the arcs are good and brings intereating changes for a character, you know that 90% of the time it will never stick.
I think this is why I have grown into liking other characters more, I had my time being a teen, I'm growing up into a young adult and there are other characters that I want to inspire to be, like optimis Prime, or captain America, or superman, their comics are actually doing something different, and stay true to who they are, spider-man isn't moving at all he keeps taking too many steps back and the higher up at marvel will NEVER let him grow, and it hurts seeing my favorite hero as a kid being left in the dust while others are moving on, i want to still love the og but his alternate version from the movies and games are just.....better.
Exactly. With Superman and Cap, there’s still a status quo but they’re way better at shaking it up. Like there are two active Caps now. And Superman and Lois are married and he’s a dad. Even if I know some or all of it will be undone somehow, it’s stuff like that that’s fun while it lasted. And with the constant Transformers reboots, I appreciate new people trying to take big swings with characters like Prime even if it doesn’t always work. But it feels like Spidey doesn’t have that anymore and just feels like a series of people trying to paper over other people’s mistakes
Cebulski is a Gwen stan and when he saw Spencer was aiming to undo OMD, he ordered a course correct to fix Sins Past instead. Allowing the segue into the Beyond story and then the Wells run.
I just wanted to tell you that I'm proud of you. I know that my opinion won't mean jack and you're never going to see this but starting this by telling your audience that you learned a lesson is super mature. Honestly, "comic book writers are people" is a lesson that *I* had to learn, too. I've been growing up with you, at the time of me posting this, I'm 18, and I'd like to think that I'm growing up *with* you. It's really inspiring. Never lose the gift that is the ability to admit when you're wrong. Keep on being great, true believer!
I think the fundamental problem with Spider-Man stories, is that it never stops. The cycles of life, death and revenge over and over and over again, trying to fix what was broken and best left forgotten. And especially Peter's self-loathing, suffering and pain. He can never have a break unless it's another hero's title book. Peter never feels like he can just sit down take his breaths and move on. With every reset he gets worse and worse, until Peter is gone and all that's left is the suit and mask. I HOPE for Spider-Verse 3, The message is going to be "Try to be good, remember the mistakes and do what you can. You are not above help, make connections and friendships. Greatness and responsibility are there, but when you are absolutely at your limit, LET THE PEOPLE YOU TRUST HELP YOU!!!
I've come to a new appreciation for Superman, because he is the superhero who's allowed to grow and get married and have children. Everyone says Superman is so unrelatable, but ironically he has become the relatable character Peter Parker used to be.
But he's unrelatable. I can't relate to Sun God who's immortal and possess dozens of powers.
For example, money aside, I can relate to Batman who worked to the top of his physique. I can relate to Spider-Man, loser with no job, who can still get shot if he doesn't react quick enough. But I can't relate to Sups, because he's "this needs to be done? Done" character
@looniemoonie5955 But there is relatability tho; he's a man who tries to fit into a world that differs from him. He, despite his objective superiority, almost always tries to help and find the good in people. He fights for everyone, good or bad. There are aspects of relatability with Superman as a character. Just like there's relatability with nearly every character. To argue otherwise is silly at best. Misinfo at worst.
@looniemoonie5955 You can relate to a psychotic, violent, billionaire madman who dresses like a bat?
You can relate to someone who was just born with the perfect genes to achieve physical perfection?
You can relate to someone who just mastered centuries worth of multipule sciences in 20 years?
Man, shut up. Batman is a Gary Stu. Literally worse than Rey Skywalker. Y'all are just dumb manchildren that deny reality. Just like Batman himself.
It's almost amazing how much of an inverse Clark is to Peter at this point. He's been in a married relationship with Lois for literal decades now, and not even the New 52 retcon could wash it away forever. They have a son whom they love and has grown up to be a hero in his own right, and they recently took in more kids. I'm not caught up on the most recent comics, but they really seem to be pushing the Superman Family aspect, having all members of the Kent family and even extended family and friends, like Connor Kent or John Henry Irons or Kong Kenan, all of them working together closely. It hasn't been an easy journey. Clark has struggles just like everyone else, powers notwithstanding. But he and his family actually get to be _happy._
"Relatability" is one of those writing aspects that I've come to think people need to be more careful with, and I'm of the opinion that it doesn't always have to rely on pain or suffering in a character. Trials build character, yes, but piling on too much troubles can just drown a story in misery. And by now, Peter Parker is all but lying at the bottom of the ocean.
@@looniemoonie5955 People just parrot the line that Superman is unrelatable because they've heard it so often that the whole thing has just become a big circular argument. He had to work to build a healthy and mutually respectful and loving relationship with Lois. He's constantly having to make excuses to sneak away that affect his relations and his standing with his boss negatively, and was doing it decades before Peter Parker was. He's a dad for crying out loud; how is that not relatable? Personally I find him a lot more relatable than Batman, who has more money than the global GDP and a bigger budget than the entire US military. He can somehow own a never ending arsenal of superweapons that includes things like a suit of armor powered my miniaturized red giants; a never ending fleeting of disposable military grade land, marine, and air vehicles; high tech secret bases and safe houses everywhere on earth, satellites in orbit, and secret bases and labs on the moon containing enough firepower to actually detonate the entire moon; and all that without putting a noticeable dent in his bank account. You think that is relatable but Superman isn't?! And his powers are not a magic instawin button. Bulletproof skin or the ability to fly do magically solve every conceivable problem, and has frequently been pushed to the brink and beyond by villains like Brainiac, Darkseid Lex Luthor, etc. And there are many other popular characters that are as power as Superman, like Goku, Thor, or Hulk; but nobody ever says they're unrelatable. There is no amount of punishment Wolverine can't heal from, and he has even recovered from being reduced to nothing but his skeleton, and yet I never heard anyone claim Wolverine isn't relatable. People don't think Superman is unrelatable because he's too powerful. They say that because they are mindlessly parroting everyone else they've heard say it, who in turn are also mindlessly parroting what they've heard.
It’s kind of weird that a comic that was built on being somewhat grounded and relatable has become super over complicated.
I have the exact same problem with recent Spider-Man movies as much as I love Spider-Man no way home and the animated spider verse movies I hope to god that the next mcu spider-man movie with tom holland is a back to basics Spider-Man story no multiverses and no infinite variants of Spider-Man I just want a good old fashion grounded Spider-Man film about him fighting crime in New York
Yeah, it was so relatable reading it as a teen, after coming back from a hard day at school, knowing that tomorrow I will do the same, probably fight against my best friend's insane father, a russian immigrant enfatuated by rhinos or maybe even fight against a black sludge that loves/hates me
Didn’t Superman and Batman comics also start that way too and if anything they’re more super over complicated than Spider-Man ever will be.
I hope No Way Home keeps being a "once in a life time" event for the live action movies, I'm already done with the multiverse and just want the relatable/grounded spidey drama back
@@ayrtonjoga Seeing as DC just released The Flash impossible the worst part is when those comics started out they were more grounded and relatable than Spidey’s but now they’re far more super over complicated even when they’re good which isn’t often anymore.
Sad to think that bright bit optimism you had 5 years ago for Spencer’s run got completely crushed, I know that feeling all too well with the things I’m passionate about.
rest in peace, star wars
@@imnotkiddinggNah on the contrary star wars animated has always been as amazing as ever. Wonder if tales of Jedi is gonna get another entry. Maybe some of the stories in visions are gonna get expanded upon. Ahsoka is looking to be a star wars rebels sequel in live action.
But speaking of star wars, this is a pretty weird take, as long as good content comes out nothing's really gonna change and starwars still is pretty much thriving.
Very sad 😢
@@govnorelven4036 gurl i love ur optimism maybe u have a point lol animation department stays carrying, i just mean the way ppl feel about it is different its been polarized and nobody's excited abt the new rey movies, like luke skywalker is DEAD remember that
@@imnotkiddingg
I’m excited about the film because it’s not going to be trying to redo the OG trilogy and focus on being it’s own thing. When ROSW ended I felt like I wanted to see what was going to happen next for the first time during the sequel trilogy. It’s a shame that so many won’t give it a chance because of the messy trilogy.
This man made a Spider-Man video talking about its downfall without so much as mentioning Paul. What a legend.
Who?
@@Double-R-Nothingbe glad you don’t know.
_Shaking my fist angrily_ PAAAAAUUUUULLLLL
And honestly, he didn't need to. As cool as it was seeing the Sinister 66 (or whatever you want to call them) all coming for Peter and him somehow handling them, it was in service to a plot that dragged WAY too long and ultimately went... kinda nowhere. If they'd at least actually reversed OMD, that'd be one thing, but they didn't. Spencer half-teased it, only for everything to be thrown out so Ben Reilly could be Spider-man for a while again before even getting to Paul.
PAAAAUL!!!
PAUL, ILL CHASE YOU TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD, PAAAAAAUUUUL!!
The sad thing is, I think Spidey's slide into endless repetition began much earlier.
I consider the 1990s the time when things really began to move backwards for Spidey. Aunt May's death was beautifully written, MJ was pregnant and Ben Reilly was around to handle Spidey stuff while Peter finally could focus on other responsibilities besides being Spider-Man . Then in one fell swoop, they retconned May's death as an actress posing as her, induced a miscarriage for MJ and killed off Ben while bringing back Norman Osborn. Sure, things still happened to change the status quo here and there, but the longer Spidey is around, the less things stick.
Imagine a world where Spidey had been allowed to keep his forward momentum... I could spend months writing a pitch for that.
I have the issues with Spiderman being Ben Reilly during that time right before the whole Onslaught thing. And they still are some of my favorites. (Also his costume in that one is by far my fave) And then years later when i went to find the comics to see how the birth had went and how Ben and Peter had evolved i found out that that didn't happen.... By god that is exactly wwhere Spider-Man ended for me.
Yeah, that would have been the end point for me, but the clone saga was so needlessly convoluted and annoying that I dropped off of the book and started reading the stuff that came out before I was born. Then at the time I finished all of that Ultimate and the JMS run started and both of those books were so unbelievably good with the exception of the end of the JMS run. Spider Man's end for me is right before Civil War.
@@vincentbatten4686 The First Civil War seems like a better place for Peter to have ended in. He and MJ were married, Aunt May finally kicked the bucket, and Peter SHOULD have been forced to live with his consequences, not whatever One More Day was.
there is a spidey now that never lost his forward momentum (story-wise), Peter B Parker. Possibly one of the greatest Spidey adaptations ever put on screen!
The 90s was when I started reading as a teen. I enjoyed the 90s, but then they started taking everything back. Nothing ever sticks
"I have to do what Peter Parker can't anymore.... move on." That straight up broke me.
Peter Parker No More!
Fr
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
Mendoza still has Miles, he'll be okay.
That must be crushing, being forced to create a story you don’t want to create and being blamed for the idea. It honestly makes me feel bad for Zebb and what he must be going through.
Thats true. But even without the executive meddling Zebs writing is still pretty bad sadly. which is disappointing cause i like his ant man stuff a little bit
True. I'm pretty sure he apologized before all of this shit hit the fan. I decided to simply blame marvel going forward. I hadn't read the run I just got tid bits here and there. Thor and venom have been my highlights so far.
@@Ando1428 honestly my favorite run right now is Moon Knight by Jed McKay and Ghost Rider by Peter Benjamin, I wish more people talked about Marvels good runs, but Spider-Man gets all the press.
It is especially bad in this case cause this is the Spider Man fandom we’re talking about. You know, the people that tried to sue Insomniac cause they took out some puddles? If I was Zebb, I’d be fearing for my LIFE rn
@@gabrielperez4184 well that's because he's popular. Black widow had quite a few good runs I heard since civil war 2. Hadn't had the chance to catch up for her. I liked the inhumans but I hadn't picked up anything since the black funeral.
It's kind of funny how Peter B. Parker from the Spiderverse films, who initially comes across as kind of a shlub, grows more as a character in the span of two movies than Peter Parker has in the mainstream comic series in a long time. I will also add that Marvel could very easily choose to let Peter Parker grow up again, considering we have the younger Miles Morales in the main universe and several other spider people as well that could please the younger demographic. But instead they choose to perpetually keep Peter in a stage of arrested development.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
@@spider-man9118post all the evidence you have please
@@spider-man9118 This isn't the place for Biblical Discourse. Sharing your faith happens through deep relationships with real people, not in internet threads with somebody you will never meet.
@@miguelmaturino2516just trying to get the word out, my fellow (Zoomer?) believer
Frankly his story of Aunt May dying and him divorcing Mary Jane is what should've happened in the comics instead of making a deal with a demon.
Venom keeps getting Ws while Pete stays getting Ls….. crazy.
Peter can't even be married while Eddie and Venom are living their best life
@matti.8465 kinda, definitely better than Peter though.
This is why I'm getting into Invincible. Consistent artist/writers, a linear story with no tie ins, no editorial mandates, and a story that has a defined ending. It's so refreshing.
Couldn't agree more. In a lot of ways, I think Mark Grayson is the spiritual successor to Peter Parker.
@@Tyler_W Yeah, I see it too. I always thought Mark had more in common with Spider-Man than he does with Superman.
@@kap1618 It's funny that you mention it cause the spider man art shown in this video resembles me a brunette mark grayson so much XD
Invincible's structure is so much more akin to manga than American comics and I think it's a huge strength of it
I’ve read all the compendiums like 5 or 6 times one of my favorite if not my favorite comic series
To be fair, I did kinda enjoy Mephisto revealing that he did OMD purposefully so that Mayday Parker would never be born, because he saw the future and saw her defeating him in an ultimate apocalypse. That was kinda interesting and in-character for him.
I just appreciate the shout out to Mayday. Honestly rolling the MC2 characters into the mainline universe would be a great idea at this point, especially Mayday. You'd get a hip new teenage girl Spider-person, Peter could be a happily married father and mentor character.
@@BenitoSwagolini-kf3wh Well, the problem there is that we already have Miles, who SHOULD already be that. The fact that both the movies and the games have both synergized with each other to make Peter a mentor to Miles so that he can independently mature while Miles handles the coming of age stuff should be a slam dunk for both synergizing the comics with other, more popular media and doing what the fans want but Marvel seems entirely unwilling to just take the jump.
i like that too. It felt kinda anime Jesus in a way, but for a character/concept so hated by Marvel editorial, i think it works and more Mayday is always nice.
I never really understood what she coulda done against him she’s just a spider person
It fixed a big issue aside from the character assassination part, which is why the fuck would he care about Peter and MJs marriage, so at least there is that
I'll be honest, the jokes that the retcon had the internet make replaced the original jokes for Sins Past.
"Norman Osborne fucked Mysterio dressed as Gwen Stacy" is one of the most funny jokes regarding a retcon I've ever heard of.
Norman Osborne: And that's how I've cucked Spiderman!
Venom: ....why would you have sex with Mysterio instead of just having Mysterio using his powers to make Peter think she was cheating on him?
Norman:.....
@@MediaGhost_ Norman still cucked Harry though
For the love of god please tell me this is a joke
I'm Sorry, I'm gonna need a re-type on that. Did you just say Norman Osborne had Sex with Mysterio while looking like Gwen Stacy?
@@Minious1020That's the meme version of events, yea.
More and more I see people saying "Miles is the spider-man people care about now," and looking strictly at the comic runs both are getting, I really see why. Miles is at least getting to learn and grow and do new things, whereas Peter just...well, watch the video.
Yep. Comic miles still needs some better villains and I think giving him his own clone saga was a mistake but the spider-verse movie was great as well as his game and since he is a younger character it's clear that he has more potential to grow and develop. He's simply more intriguing because he has a different home life and family dynamics. His relationship with uncle Aaron alone makes him more intriguing than Peter.
peter exists to suffer
also, Miles has the best movies
@@tomasavendanozacarias5205 spiderman 2 se viola a las dos animadas
@@tomasavendanozacarias5205 Spider-Man 2 is still the best comic book movie unfortunately
The fact that Spider-Verse had him get a real divorce and kill off aunt may and then later made Peter a dad and everyone loves it feels fitting how marvel is shitting the bed
I find it ironic that Venom has become more relatable then Spider-man. Venom actually had character development that was carried over story to story that wasn’t done away literally a year later and his current stories are actually pretty good.
If you disregard Dylan being boring as shit, and the overly convoluted time loop stuff with Eddie and Finnegan/Medirius/Bedlam, and doing big Carnage event for like the fifth time in 5 years, and just everything connected to the awfulness of Knull and the King in Black story...yeah, the Venom (and connected symbiote) books are pretty good.
616 Spider-Man has been many things to us throughout the years.
A role model, an icon, a cool superhero with a cool costume.
But as we got older, he became more than that. He became a voice to us. Who spoke to us through his hardships and struggles and pushed us through our accomplishments and triumphs.
It’s like he was an old friend whom we admired and looked to for guidance and comfort.
But as of late? It’s like seeing that friend being abused and mistreated so badly, all because the people that shelter him either don’t care or care too much that they keep him to themselves.
We as fans see how much it’s affecting him.
And it hurts.
What's sad? Is that meanwhile at DC, Nightwing is finally getting the immense respect he deserves. He canonically surpassed Batman to become a better leader, fighter and overall hero of the verse.
He's also leading the Justice League while the founding members are away, The heroes all agreed there was no other choice.
I've always said that Spider-Man and Nightwing are Marvel's and DC's versions of the same character or at least as closest possible.
If one hugely influential fan favorite character can get through respect they deserve why can't the other? It seems Marvel's inability to let Peter Parker grow Is the only answer.
Nightwing is a joke
Tom Taylor is writing the Nightwing books now. He previously wrote a lot of the Injustice comic run from 2012 or 13 and he really has shown that most of the time he can MASTERFULLY handle DC characters. Yes okay in the Injustice storyline, Dick Grayson dies in a very shockingly stupid way but I don't think that was Tom's fault and it was probably Dan Didio or whoever was in charge of the books at the time who told him to write that shit, like "We gotta kill Nightwing" and they're like "Okay... why? And how?" and then "I don't care how or why, he's got to die in this story."
But all in all, Nightwing is in great hands right now. It's on par with the Scott Snyder's run of Batman books for the New 52. Tom Taylor is an excellent writer. Hope they bring him on board for the movies.
I'm fairly certain Nightwing will never be a greater fighter than Batman.
@psnfailout000 True, Nightwing does rely on his acrobatics and his speed but Batman's reaction times and his brawling fighting moves are insanely powerful.
@@psnfailout000
Batman isn't even the best fighter without superpowers at DC.
Well you see Xavier I can give you back the Spider-Man you remember on one condition
You give up your marriage. Muahahaha
Not today, Satan!
Great (and depressing) breakdown of both the specific ridiculousness of recent spidey and the effect narrative stagnation can have on even the most dedicated reader
DC solved a lot of these problems once Dan Didio was fired. Bringing on younger people into editorial not stuck in the same ancient mindset is how problems like these get fixed.
That what I been trying to say they need to fire the current editor for fresh new editors who grew up with a married Spiderman and like character growth
DC still has problems, let's not beat around the bush but I think part of why Marvel is doing this is to prop up Miles. If Peter died again no one would mourn his loss
No age of the person doens't matter although experience really helps, its having passion for the work and not just using the IP for your own ends and thus pushing people away.
@@hopelessedgelord fact
no they really didn't. If anything, the problems got worse.
Ironically, the titular movie Amazing Spider-Man WAS redeemed somewhat recently. I guess that film really wasn't accurate to the books...
For some reason that statement hurts
It was more closer to Ultimate Spiderman.
Which was still cool.
@@loganboyd6609 Why?
Imagine how Spencer's run must've felt to guys like me who didn't even know much about the history it was trying to retcon. At some point I was just lost and didn't care to finish it
Don’t worry if your a fan you’ll end up reading those, not everything needs to be for newer fams
Well you’re a miles fan and 80% of his stories are ripped from peter so you probably weren’t that lost!
That’s the worst part about the run. It’s final 5 issues are completely unreadable to anyone who didn’t read a twenty year old story and a 30 year old story.
@@ianbruno237 yeah, but not everything has to be convoluted and straight retcons. New readers are still picking up these books, there has to be a balance that these don't have
sadly even though it had a clear trajectory that it was heading toward, editorial shut that down prematurely - as they tend to do
This is truly the best “Spider-Man No More” adaptation of all time. Great work, my man.
I was not expecting an emotional editorial about growing out of things we loved as children but damn
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
@@spider-man9118-_-
@@randomgamer625 what
@@spider-man9118 -_- you tell me
Virgin Spider-Man comics: 16 years of spinning their wheels so Mayday can never exist to punch Mephisto.
Chad Spider-Verse movies: Mayday is a baby and Peter is Maes Hughes.
Well, blame Joe Quesada for making One More Day.
The idea that they made Pete a character that people outgrow is probably the most damning thing in this video.
A true observation, and a wicked line.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
You know it's bad when Eddie Brock now has better treatment than Spider-Man in the comics.
Every generation of Spiderman reader has that moment when they realize all the character growth they went thru with Peter was for nothing.
Holy crap that final monologue spoke to me as a huge Spidey fan.
I love the adaptations of this character, but I’ve also become quite jaded to the comic book as of recently. It’s the reason why I mainly read IDW sonic and Shonen Jump manga. Because those stories felt like they were going somewhere. Hell, it’s why I read all of invincible and loved it even more than Spider-Man
Superheroes deserve better respect
It sucks when the fantastic four and more recently even the X-Men are allowed to change and evolve yet not Spider-Man
@@kurodoodle4876 whats the current x-men run?
Hell yeah, IDW Sonic mentioned!
@@outermeowven Sorry I haven't seen this sooner dude. So after a couple years of the X-Men comics being stagnant, a writer named Jonathan Hickman essentially did a semi soft reboot of the title that asked the question of what if mutants finally fought back against their oppressors and started a new nation, formulating their own language and culture? While the mutant species having a new nation isn't a new idea, Hickman made it to where the comic went full force on the concept. His run began in 2019 and ended roughly around 2021 but the impact still remained as he allowed his team to continue on with the story. Basically, the X-Men are currently in what is known as the "Krakoan era" named after the island the nation was founded upon.
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
I think that this highlights the reason that I’ve always enjoyed cape comics in ‘Elseworlds’ format. Just a dedicated creative team going nuts with a story that’s only priority is being that, a good story regardless of current continuity. It’s one of the reasons I adore Spider-Man Life Story so much. Peter got to live a life, and he got his ending.
On that note, I wish more people treated TV shows, movies, games, and other adaptations as Elseworlds since they basically are. I've seen so many good adaptations getting written off and dismissed just because they don't follow the source material exactly.
This current Spider-Man run actually made miss Dan Slott. It achieved the damn near impossible
Crazy thing is Chip Zdarsky was like the perfect choice for Amazing too. Spider-Man's appearances in his Daredevil run wrote him as a more put together, matured person than in his own ongoing, and his Spectacular run is the kind of stuff I love about how his stakes vary so much in scope like he's superhero Seinfeld. Its actually depressing
His storytelling isn't always the best, but Dan Slott consistently has good ideas that shake up the status quo and basically force Peter to grow up. Dan Slott's a thousand times better than Zeb Wells...
@@runbaa9285 that is when Slott isn’t being reductive & writing Peter as a man-child Slott’s writing had a lot of highs, but it had some pretty rough lows too
Spider-Man in Daredevil is like the biggest badass.
Chip won’t do it, he knows that the job would just drain his soul
@@runbaa9285 Man, the standards are really lowering for this character.
As someone who’s had many passions devolve into toxic or untenable relationships, this video hits home so hard. When you stand up for your principles and abandon the things that brought you joy, it’s the toughest feeling in the world. The comic industry is accelerating their death at rapid speeds by kneecapping the development of their most popular characters for the sake of “status quo” or “universe reset”. Thank you for this video, and I sincerely hope you take time with the things that bring you joy, rather than drudging through misery ragging on Zeb Well’s run like the rest of the Internet lol.
The manga industry has clapped them so hard, it's pathetic
Well said, I feel the same way. It's why I jumped ship to Japanese stories instead.
@@KaminoKatie and it's all because they're not only doing what the American industry used to be great at, but they've actually learned how to adapt to their business model to the demands of the modern market. The American industry started going astray when it stopped being run by salt of the earth people who had business savvy and just wanted to tell a good story.
My favourite comic book character of all time is Ben Reilly and he's been tbe biggest victim of this era outside of Peter himself. It's just a miserable time to be a fan of these characters because I can't see them being fixed any time soon right now.
Oh absolutely, and sadly Ben doesn't have any substantial adaptations to look forward too
Ben Reilly and Peter Parker fans deserve BETTER!
I truly feel bad for these writers
Could you imagine being forced to compromise your vision for a story? That’s so sad
There’s nothing worse for a story than becoming stale because even when something is bad it can still be something of note or at least something to learn from but this is just sad
I just wanted to say, thank you Xavier. I've been following you pretty much since the beginning and, being pretty much the same age, I always felt so connected to you and your videos genuinely feel so cozy. I'm not lying, at least once every few weeks I'll binge the whole Spider-Man games retrospective, and you have seriously been someone I look up to for the longest time. I know this comment doesn't have much to do with the video (even though I whole-heartedly agree with you), but I just wanted to thank you for basically being like a slightly younger brother I've never had. Just another kid who shares the same passions as me. My girlfriend's pregnant and I've genuinely considered naming my kid Xavier and I KNOW IT'S WEIRD but that's just how much you as a person mean to me! I'm sure we'll never meet but still, I felt I had to tell you all of this for some reason heh :)
This was a really beautiful comment friend, thanks for sharing and congratulations on your kid
Lo p😊
That so cute!
That's awesome!
I just wrote a comment like this with out knowing you did the same thing a couple hours before me. We on the same vibe me and you
People have asked me for years why I stopped reading Marvel and DC, and this video is point by point every reason I had to give up. Spidey is the worst example of it but this is how so much of comics work now and it just isn't fun anymore. So thanks for making this, it felt good to hear someone else put these thoughts into words.
Comics from the big two as a whole, particularly over the last decade or so, have had so many retcons, reboots, recharacterizations, etc. that it reached a point where every tease for a big event or change had my stomach in knots; I was just dreading what stupid thing would come and snatch away a character or run I enjoyed. I pretty much checked out when Marvel had The King in Black being the umpteenth event to derail multiple books I was reading while DC did the same with Dark Knights: Death Metal which was clearly leading into yet ANOTHER universe reboot... About the only good thing that came of the latter was Super Boy Prime getting a proper redemption and happy ending, so I took the meta hint and decided to stop reading to make sure things stayed that way.
this is the reason that, while i love the characters, i hate the media. the fact characters arent allowed to grow and develop, instead just being rubberbanded back to the starting line after a few years because of status quo just feels like a massive waste of time and money.
@@marcosdheleno that's true and you're right about that sadly
this is why you should do everything in moderation and not put all your faith in people, because in the words of confetti, "people suck."
8 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
Psalm 118:8-9
reject lust, embrace God
Also, we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested
@@clicksclacks except dc actually good stuff right now like Jeremy adams flash run is amazing
Tapping out at 21:46 because I’m worried about permanent brain damage. Thanks for taking the hit!
I read it so you don't have to!
@@GodzillaMendoza follow-up question based on your video and title: should spider-man be over? I mean obviously he will never be allowed to rest so long as there's money to be made, but should he?
@@futureboy314 Maybe the original continuity can end. Like I said in the video, I find Transformers and TMNT appealing because they know when to stop and reboot so the stories stay more fresh
I remember falling in love with your spiderman games retrospective back in the day, changes the way my brain analyzed media I'm nostalgic for. Now I'm out of high school and entering college this fall, glad to see you've never left TH-cam, keep creating!!
I understand the appeal of retconning and "fixing" Sins Past. It's one of the worst comics in Spider-Man history. It is a black mark on the book's history. But, this was not the way to do it. This is just stupid.
Honestly this phenomenon is probably part of why people latched onto Peter B so much when spiderverse came out. Everyone wants to see Peter get older and face a changing status quo, but the only times we get to see that is with spin-offs and alternate universes, because in the main universe they couldn’t even have MJ and Pete get split up naturally since that would have too much of an effect on them as characters, so instead there’s this over the top demonic nonsense so that they can go back to the status quo without actually effecting anyone instead of letting the book change, letting Peter grow
Absolutely correct. What's an even greater condemnation of the way things are is because we know they're self aware of that fact and are trying to give it to us...in a new Ultimate Universe comic, which I can almost guarantee will gain more interest and investment from what few people still read Big 2 comics anymore than the main book in mainstream continuity.
Shame that Zdarsky didn't want to continue writing on Spidey since no one understood what Spidey stories should be like more than him. Spider-Man Life Story and his run Spectacular are masterpieces.
Ironically, writers being called menaces while also being demanded pictures of Spiderman...
Wally West and Miles Morales are pointing at Peter from a corner and laughing.
Barry:you too
Peter:yes
I like how skeleton harry still has waves
I will always have a soft spot for Spencer run
Strictly on the grounds if he is one of the very few writers to say “No this was stupid and should fixed”
Like sheer fact he went out his way to correct Sins past and nearly OMD where other writer want to pretend that never happened deserves praise
Heck sheer fact he brought up MJ’s Baby being kidnapped
A character point that is never brought up again after it happened by MJ or Peter
Shows just how much he cared
What was needed after Spencer’s run was someone that had their eyes on the future someone that wanted to pick up the ball after Spencer and build to a new better status quo
Sadly we didn’t get that
I liked the Straczynski run. The mysticism there was just more charming than the whole Paul thing. Lots of MJ/Pete moments too to cleanse your eyes.
Me too. It was my favorite run of the series.
That initial "Will-they-won't-they" aspect had me on the edge of my seat for issue after issue. I've never had a comic make me feel so invested in a relationship like that. Then the issue dropped where they Do decide to give it another go, and I felt a rush of joy that I don't think I've ever really felt from reading a comic afterwards. Now that, that was some quality stuff.
Sins Past
@@TheVileOne One More Day too, sadly
@@TheVileOneto be fair, that was marvel editorials fault and the writer didn’t want to do sins past or OMD
This is the perfect video describing how Spider-Man felt like to me for quite some time. When the editorial keeps messing with my 3 favorite characters, being Ben Reilly, Pete and MJ, I don't have any drive to continue reading their stories. Mini-series like Humanity Agenda are great, but at the end of the day that's all they are, short stories that have "conclusions". All while the main book will continue to stagnate, eventually either getting a full-on reboot or outliving us all
This is so true. It's reason's like these that I typically stick to media like TV and Manga because at the very least the characters have the chance to grow and develop a story that could be good instead of trying to cram every idea a person can think of into one never ending story and ruining the flow of what was once special. Stories need endings.
I like to think the spider-girl comics are canon, cause thats the closest we will get to see Peter grow as a character, becoming a parent and loving husband and once in awhile helping mayday out with being a hero.
Renew Your Vows existed too, and that was mostly solid.
But that Peter died in spiderverse comics
Shout out to the Spider-Verse team for giving us the 35+ girl dad Peter that we deserve.
Agreed!
We already had one of those, twice in different universes. The one where Pete is retired and his daughter Mayday Parker is Spider-Girl and the other is from 'Renew your Vows' where Peter and MJ have a daughter, Annie May Parker and they all fight crime together.
"WHOSE SKELETONS ARE THESE!?" Best bit for me. 😂
This video was well worth the wait. Your thoughts are really well articulated and I honestly think a lot of folks in the fandom would benefit from doing what you've done and just move on from ASM. Its not worth the time it takes to read it. Life is too short to waste on something that makes you feel angry and/or empty.
Thank you for coming to my Tedtalk
Peter being the young superhero in the modern age is stupid because he grow and changed over the course his story and we already have a young Spiderman of the modern age and his name is Miles Morales.
No, it's Peter's own kids.
F@%k Miles!
Just let him be an adult! Let him get married, have a kid, deal with juggling his responsibilities as Spider-Man with his responsibilities as a parent, a husband, a teacher!
If you still wanna tell stories about high school drama, about college aged drama, MILES IS RIGHT THERE. Let Peter grow up for God’s sake.
@@cartoonishidealism582 I know right, Marvel made Reed and Sue parents, They made some of their X men characters into parents and They even made Venom and Deadpool dads But, Spiderman is where they draw the line.
I know it sounds stupid, but this video made me shed a tear at the end
That actually means a lot and I'm glad you connected with it like that
The idea is that because it's Amazing Spider-Man they don't have to try which is maybe the most irritating mindset a creator can have, that they can just rest on the laurels of what came before and serve whatever slop they want.
This video resonated with me a lot Xavier, I feel like we’ve grown up together through shared maturity and burnout on caped comics for better or worse.
It is unfortunate, but Peter Parker isn’t worth getting invested in anymore.
Sad but true 😔
“Peter Parker isn’t worth getting invested in anymore.”
Horrific, god-awful, shit-tier take. A few trashy comic runs isn’t enough reason to completely disregard the decades of legendary storytelling and cultural influence that we’ve had from this character.
I feel like there intentionally trying to destroy the character so we’ll just focus on Miles and they won’t have to write Peter. Idk
@@wyatttalley2233 Bingo. You can say you’re not a fan of the current run. I understand some of the arguments why. But someone will eventually take over for Zeb Wells and write a different storyline. And if that run does well, post-mortem videos like these will be really dated in a few years.
@@wyatttalley2233 Still it's hard to root for a character when Marvel keeps constantly evoke the status quo of making Peter constantly miserable and a single man who won’t grown up. It was annoying when they did that in the clone saga, it's was annoying when they did it in One more day, and it's annoying here. Though I’m more mad at Marvel themselves the Peter, because clueless editors are afraid of any sort of change.
"Enraged fan is engaged fan" is a quote from one of the editors behind Spider-Man. I am 99 % sure it was Lowe, but, again, always double-check it.
Another thing: don't worry about Dan Slott and don't take it very close to heart, Xavier. The guy is, ummmm... how can I phrase it. He's an INTERESTING fella. He looks up (yes, straight up searches) for any mentionings of him on social media and attacks said person even if he just slightly disagrees with them. He blocked, probably, thousands of people. He's very, and I mean, VERY active on Twitter, CBR, I assume some other places too (Reddit/4chan, too lazy to double check).
It's like a kink of his or some kinda fragile ego. Don't get me wrong, he's written some of my all-time favorite comics, but the way he interacts with people... huge yikes. Can't handle any critique, even if it's solid.
I think comic writers should not be on Twitter
@@guillesuperior they should manage their time and focus on writing plus don't interact with their fans outside of cons/interviews. This is straight up bullying what Slott does.
@@guillesuperiorthe age of Twitter engagement may not have be what's ruined the Big 2, but it has certainly sped along their demise.
At one point during this video I got a ad for headache medicine and I think that was directed towards you man. Hope you’re doing better pal
One of the things I love about the invincible comic is that changes stay permeant, feels like what I’m reading has weight and meaning to it
It was cool to see the damage inflicted by an alien attack early in the run was still being dealt with twenty issues later.
It’s crazy that the run ultimately retconned Sins Past because JMS wanted to do that with One More Day so he could get a victory out of writing the story but those in charge wouldn’t let him
I mostly agree with you and as a MJ fan as long time Spidey fan, the worst part is that the editors/creators seemingly can't let go or make their mind. They HAVE to keep bringing back Gwen and MJ, keep teasing fan with the possibility of Peter getting back together with MJ. It's like the madness of social media where people act as toxic and hateful as possible, because that is what get the most engagement and gets the most rewards, has taken over.
At this point, as some one who has always liked Marvel more then DC? I am seriously considering switching teams. Because the whole Dawn of DC thing with Stargirl and kids form the Golden Age of Comics seems a lot better than anything Marvel is up to.
Enjoyed your take as to how you age while Peter stays the same. Try doing it at 59. I'm supposed to be 18 year younger than Peter Parker.
I appreciate what Nick Spencer was trying. Despite the problems, there were a lot of really enjoyable stuff.
1) The stories not about Kindred are good. Randy and Janice's relationship and their dads' responses felt like a good old story.
2) The demonic spider squad was such a powerful image. That cover is in my top 10 for Spider-Man ones.
3) The scene where Norman realized Ghost Spider was a parallel Gwen was really intense and nerve-wrecking.
4) The attempts to fix some bad stories were necessary. _Sins Past_ and Queenpin Felicia should have been fixed long ago.
5) Gibbon's death uniting all the animal-theme villains unite as an army under Vulture's leadership was so powerful.
6) I love these cool throwbacks to older villains like Slyde, the Tri-Sintinel, Sin-Eater, and the Lethal Legion.
7) The new villain teams (Sinister Syndicate, Savage Six, and the Sinful Six) are great additions to Spider-Man's rogues.
8) It was so wonderful to see Peter act mature and caring again after about a decade of Slott writing him as a man-child.
The biggest problem is the pacing. Kurt Busiek did tons of fix stories during his Avengers run. The _Avengers Forever_ maxi is literally nothing but twelve issues of retcons to fix weird/bad stories. But he succeeded because his fixes were backed by cool action and character work; and were fairly easy to understand instead of going point-by-point to explain every single detail. Doing that just makes the comic feel more convoluted. In short, Spencer's run was great ideas with bad execution due to editorial mandate.
You know what pains me most about the current run by Wells is that I can't even identify what the point is. With most stories, even shit ones, you can usually pinpoint an arc or a theme somewhere. Even Spencer's storyline was trying to build towards SOMETHING plot wise. Feels like the only thing this story has are dumb and "shocking" moments designed to rile up the fanbase
I am a big fan of Spider-Man, ever since I was a kid. I watched all his movies, TV shows, and played the games, but I never read the comic.
I did read the Spider-Girl comic in the library and I loved it. I remember thinking this was the current Spider-Man comic run, and I was excited at the idea of the movies or TV Shows eventually adapting this. Later I was disappointed to learn that this wasn't the main comic universe. The only time I was interested in reading the main comic was when Shattered Dimensions came out, and I wanted to read the comic version of those characters to learn more about them. My dad got me some old issues of the Amazing Spider-Man, and gave me volume 6 of Ultimate Spider-Man (the one with Venom). I was only interested in collecting all of Ultimate Spider-Man, as that seem like the easiest thing actually do, but I never got around to it.
Now in present time, I can never see myself buying a Spider-Man comic. The character I love so much is ruined because of people behind the scenes who want to make Peter Parker "relatable". Any progression the character tried to had since the 90's has always been stopped. The Clone Saga was made just so Peter and MJ can start a family, with Ben Reilly taking up the mantle of Spider-Man. Only to end with Ben to dying, Norman coming back from the dead, Peter and MJ losing the baby, and Aunt May coming back from the dead. Peter and MJ were happily married, with Ultimate Spider-Man telling stories of a younger of the character. What does Marvel do? They made Peter make a deal with the devil to undo his marriage, just so he can save his Aunt May's Life. They did all of this because they wanted Peter to be "relatable" even though they were making a comic with a younger Spider-Man.
I find it so funny that the games and movies are doing a better job at growing Spider-Man as a character. Aunt May dies in the PlayStation video game, in the Spider-Verse movie, and in the MCU. Peter is married, happy, and has a baby in Across the Spider-Verse. Meanwhile the comics refuses to grow Peter as a character. Superman has a son now, but Spider-Man can't have children? The only hope I have is that the popularity of baby Mayday will make the higher ups allow Peter and MJ to finally have a daughter in the main comics.
You know, Spider-Man comics could’ve been so much more than what they are now. So much missed potential due to bad writing and decisions. If it were up to me I would’ve kept Peter and MJ married and given them two kids, (Mayday being 5 and Ben being practically a newborn). We could keep Paul but make him fall in love with Carly, focus on the actual people in Peter’s life besides MJ and his family if they feel like it’s gone stale. I honestly wished this was the status quo for Peter as it would be interesting to see how this would react to storylines like Superior Spider-Man, ANAD etc. So much potential gone because Marvel is scared to show their flagship character act his age.
That apology you issued in the beginning was brilliant and hats off to you my man! That part about not wanting to be in either camp RESONATED with me. Geek culture consumers are too quick to complain and insult. There’s barely any room for real discourse anymore
I understand a hero has to suffer, but holy shit. It's like Marvel considers Peter Parker being happy as a war crime or something.
You can’t call him Spider-MAN if he never grows up…😪
While I do disagree over how Spencer's run was terrible, I do agree that the end was pretty bad. However I think the way Spencer characterizes Peter and his supporting cast was excellent and stayed true to who they are, especially with how Peter rightfully gets pissed off with Norman and how he used MJ to capture Kindred
I think his run gets way too much hate because of the ending lmao. Sure, it started dragging a lot because of the editorial, but the beginning of the run(firat 25 issues or so) is exactly what Xavier said he was hoping to receive
I completely agree, spencer's characterization of the cast was great imo, and the humor was spot on in the early issues
Absolutely. I think Nick Spencer wrote Peter Parker and his supporting cast far better than Dan Slott did and I maintain that it was a really solid (if imperfect) run until it cratered at the end.
Honestly I couldn’t agree more. You essentially summed up my entire feelings for Spider-Man comics right now. It genuinely hurts seeing characters that I love be dragged through the mud over and over. It’s honestly exhausting. I do agree we shouldn’t take our anger out on the writers. I may not agree with Wells current writing decisions but I don’t want death threats given. That’s cruel and immature. I will always love spider-man and will continue to love him and write stories that I would like to see but for now I’m just done with official ASM comics.
Love your work, wish you and your wife the best :)
How is it that Superman comics are having their best time in decades while everyone else is suffering?!?
The enraged fan thing was apparently Tom Brevoort.
Wow....this was quite an emotional video I wasn't expecting it at all. While I initially thought you'd mostly go over the Well's run, it really paints to me two things: How much you've matured and respect comic writers and how the problems for this run started going downhill before Wells. Especially the whole Harry shenanigans. As an outsider of the comics, you've really shown me how frustrating this Spider-Man can be.
While this may be my optimism speaking, I do think there'll be a writer who can steer away from this "cycle" that honestly won't show any signs of character bias. But only time will tell
I think Linkara stated it best when he said that the editorial at Marvel is a giant group of infantile manchildren that refuse to grow up and therefore refuse to allow their characters to grow up. That is paraphrasing from Linkara, sure, but it is basically how he and a bunch of people that used to like Marvel feel.
It just makes me appreciate Miles and his stories now. Writers aren't afraid to make new stuff instead of rehashing villains and storylines
Also his comics have just been better recently. They've been improving ever since Bendis left his title, but they're honestly just good now.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Miles' comics tend to be good with some small missteps along the way (i.e. making Ultimate Universe Kate Bishop a Hydra agent for some reason, but that's a moot point). I just enjoy his stories better now, mainly because it doesn't feel like editorial projecting their midlife crises onto Miles.
@@DasNordlicht91 For me it was the writing, I love the original comics and I've been rereading them for awhile now, (I got a few omnibuses!) and while reading I was reminded of why I'm happy Miles has been getting better writers for him. They've gone to places Bendis never did (getting tortured and a ton of other things going on in the Saladin run) and we're still going to get more with his current run with Cody Ziglar, after seeing Rabble and how she relates to Miles as a villain, I only want MORE!
I'm sorry for the slight fanboyism but I've been really enjoying the Ziglar run as of late and with Ultimate Invasion coming soon, I'm just really excited to be a Miles Morales fan.
I have a feeling they're sabotaging peter in order to push miles for the movies synergy
@@DraftyRum That isn't the case my guy. Peter was being sabotaged *years* before Miles was even created and even after he busted into the world of comics, Peter was still being sabotaged.
The only reason this stupid theory about Peter being put down to prop Miles up is even floating around is because of the all of success Miles has been getting.
In the 5 years since his first movie, Miles's comics has gotten way better writers, he's been noticed by main stream audiences around the world and he's gotten his own video game. And now with Across The Spider-Verse out he's getting even more success and recognition.
I'm happy with all of it and I can't wait to see what's next for him.
But this whole, "They're putting Peter down to prop Miles up." thing is just people scapegoating and blaming Miles for something that isn't his fault in the slightest.
Marvel is to blame for what's going on with Peter Parker, that's on them. Not on a character who's just getting his recognition.
I want Spider-Man to be dad and happily married to at this point I don’t care who I just want my boy to be happy
Check out the new Ultimate Spider-Man series starting in January. It's exactly that.
Before this video: Man I can’t wait to see him tear into Zeb Wells!
After this video: Fuck Marvel Higher Ups
Pretty much
The Superior Spiderman story was my favorite. Ironic that it didn’t really have Peter parker in it but I love a villain redemption arc
“It’s the Simpsons of comic books.”
Holy fuck that has to be the most accurate description of ASM I have ever heard.
hearing xavier talk about the kindraid segment made me flabergasted and it melted my brain, the amount of plotwists after plot twist after plot twist geniully made me confused and made me question what was happening in that said moment
A plot twist within a plot twist within a plot twist
It’s truly so hard to put the frustrations of being a comic book fan into words, trying to voice opinions without sounding spiteful or finding some poor writer to make into a scapegoat. I truly value you taking the time to voice your thoughts and self awareness into a format we all enjoy on your channel. I’ve always enjoyed your thoughtfulness as you take the time to delve into the roots of what make a character of story great. I see you pal❤
14:00 I feel like this section is a good example of why Peter from Into the Spiderverse works so well. Yeah he’s old, yeah he grew up, yeah he has a kid, yet despite all that he still has his own issues with relationships and marriage, we end the film off with seeing him grow from a guy who struggles with his relationship and lets it utterly destroy him to a guy who realizes that he can’t let this get him down and he starts to take control of his life, he asks her out and eventually he has a kid. It’s great! It’s a nice resolution for him. That’s the thing about stories they can appeal to multiple audiences, they don’t have to just appeal to one. (Sorry if any of the info I say about the Spiderverse movie is inaccurate like when he has a kid and stuff, it’s been years since I watched it.)
We got Ultimate Spider-Man this century...that was a comic that was well written, planned out and consistently kept its high quality.
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I disagree. Ultimate had many writing problems and I felt it started to dip in quality after the first 50 issues.
@@GodzillaMendoza hey good news actually we are getting a new ultimate Spider-Man from Jonathan Hickman so there's hope after all.
This entire run sounds exhausting!
Spider-Man is doing so well in the movies and games, and then there’s the comics.
Have you seen critic reviews for the Wells comics? Dumb MJ stuff aside, they’re largely positive. Even Dark Web.
@@benwasserman8223
I mean the MJ stuff is a pretty major point, so saying that aside doesn't really help
@@mikemorro140 It’s more of a paradoxical issue. Stuff like the Tombstone arc, Peter and Felicia and even Dark Web are pretty fun when they work (I mean Jameson tricking demons that he’s one of them… by being himself? That sounds gold). And they don’t always involve MJ. But that storyline unfortunately hangs over everything due to its bizarre mystery box nature. Meaning things always come back around to Peter and MJ
@@benwasserman8223
The Jonah stuff was fun, but the rest of Dark Web on the Spider-Man side was a mess with the massive character assassination of Ben, and being honest Peter didn't really do shit.
Peter and Felicia might be fun if their relationship wasn't so non existent, like Xavier complains about Peter and MJ barely being together in Spencer's run but Felicia has maybe played a big part in three issues of this run so far, and in two of those she was written by someone else
@@mikemorro140 Oh come on. Other than the Ben Reilly complaints, DW was pretty fun. Or at the very least the idea of sentiment, Demonic New York iconography gave me a lot of laughs.
Insane how every other piece of Spider-Man media currently with respect except the one he originated from: the comics.
The main problem lies in that the (sometimes) writers, and (definitely) the people in charge forget what it's like to be a kid, to be young, to not be an old and bitter rich person. They can't relate to anything or realize how people other than them think.
Unless you're talking about the Disney executives, nobody at Marvel Comics is getting rich doing what they do. They don't sell well enough for that, and it's not because they couldn't be. It's because the industry hasn't adapted their business model to the modern market, don't give a rip about what customers and fans they still have, they don't humble themselves enough to learn the right lessons from the success of their competitors (I don't mean DC, and I don't just mean manga), and they keep keep chasing gimmicks and social media fads thinking that's what's gonna get them new readers.
As to the actual point of your comment, spot on.
Ahh the invincible artist, love his work
Knew it seemed familiar
You thought Nick Spencer's run was crap...Zeb Wells: hold my beer
I think a better idea instead of retconning. Would be to just write an alternate universe version of the story to flesh out the fan’s personal head cannon. Like if Spencer just wrote all of his retcons in an extremely similar alternate universe story with a snazzy new title, fans would’ve appreciated it more.
I kinda wish DC and Marvel did this more with their IP’s. Let different creative teams have their own versions of the universe to play with. DC has been doing this more in recent years with stuff like Black Label, and a lot of it has been pretty good.
As a spider-man fan what can you even read at this point? As much as I love old comics I'm getting sick of coming back to them out of desperation. I feel like a dog wiggling its tail to dog food I eat for breakfast lunch and dinner every day.
I got that epiphany for Batman a few years back. Even though all the Bat-family is allowed to change and evolve, Bruce himself is also stuck in a miserable statu quo. Whatever he feels, whatever he accomplishes, it will never matter. "It was Clayface in disguise, he was brainwashed by Scareceow, Ivy manipulated his emotions with pheromones". What even is the point of reading it anymore, might as well go back to random issues from the last century for the same reading experience.
Got similar feelings for the ending of Planet Hulk too, this felt like such a blatant "reset button" for the character and everyrhing he went through. And even when the arcs are good and brings intereating changes for a character, you know that 90% of the time it will never stick.
Need another follow-up vid for the first ten issue's of the new Ultimate (once ten issues have passed).
I think this is why I have grown into liking other characters more, I had my time being a teen, I'm growing up into a young adult and there are other characters that I want to inspire to be, like optimis Prime, or captain America, or superman, their comics are actually doing something different, and stay true to who they are, spider-man isn't moving at all he keeps taking too many steps back and the higher up at marvel will NEVER let him grow, and it hurts seeing my favorite hero as a kid being left in the dust while others are moving on, i want to still love the og but his alternate version from the movies and games are just.....better.
Exactly. With Superman and Cap, there’s still a status quo but they’re way better at shaking it up. Like there are two active Caps now. And Superman and Lois are married and he’s a dad. Even if I know some or all of it will be undone somehow, it’s stuff like that that’s fun while it lasted. And with the constant Transformers reboots, I appreciate new people trying to take big swings with characters like Prime even if it doesn’t always work. But it feels like Spidey doesn’t have that anymore and just feels like a series of people trying to paper over other people’s mistakes
Cebulski is a Gwen stan and when he saw Spencer was aiming to undo OMD, he ordered a course correct to fix Sins Past instead.
Allowing the segue into the Beyond story and then the Wells run.
Yes Dan Slot is a person that endlessly gets to keep his job forever and never face any consequences for his writing both in comics and on tweeter.
"consequences"? So he should be punished for writing stories you didn't like? 😒😒😒😒
I just wanted to tell you that I'm proud of you. I know that my opinion won't mean jack and you're never going to see this but starting this by telling your audience that you learned a lesson is super mature. Honestly, "comic book writers are people" is a lesson that *I* had to learn, too. I've been growing up with you, at the time of me posting this, I'm 18, and I'd like to think that I'm growing up *with* you. It's really inspiring. Never lose the gift that is the ability to admit when you're wrong. Keep on being great, true believer!
I think the fundamental problem with Spider-Man stories, is that it never stops. The cycles of life, death and revenge over and over and over again, trying to fix what was broken and best left forgotten.
And especially Peter's self-loathing, suffering and pain. He can never have a break unless it's another hero's title book. Peter never feels like he can just sit down take his breaths and move on. With every reset he gets worse and worse, until Peter is gone and all that's left is the suit and mask.
I HOPE for Spider-Verse 3, The message is going to be "Try to be good, remember the mistakes and do what you can. You are not above help, make connections and friendships. Greatness and responsibility are there, but when you are absolutely at your limit, LET THE PEOPLE YOU TRUST HELP YOU!!!
You know something is really wrong when first 10 minutes of video are apology letter to Dan Slott