Thank you for sharing. I tried something like this in the turbine housing using a -4 fitting and an air compressor. It didn’t change much so I discounted the idea. Was trying to get away from nitrous with my 4g63/PG fox body. I ended up going to compound turbos. That along with a dump valve helped a lot. I’m now switching to a 2jz/PG and I might revisit your idea with larger piping and more pressure. I might also try it on my AWD 4g colt. Nice to find another small engine auto guy to watch!!!
Yes , but won't it warp without something ? So there is no happy median 😢😅... I'm just learning welding diff materials , my understanding is ss is great for heat , but also takes alotta hea to weld ?
@@mastercricket7626if it warps it'll also warp with the plug screwed in and bind it up. I find it best to weld without a plug and just confime it's in good shape by running a tap through it (half a turn or so for npt) once it's cool.
@@chathamcnc3944 right on brotha ... so it best to just weld it slowly and run a tap after ... ty bro cuz I will remember this for future reference... again ty for the responce .. peace and love bro , keep it rad , stay safe , and build on ... l8z famz
Really looking forward to do this on my diesel. Thank you for the idea. Did you need to tune for the compressed air shot?? Or just let it rip? Thank you very much!
I did something similar but I found my setup on a bigger turbo spools faster at 120psi tank pressure and I have one nozzle in the turbine housing. I think your loosing air speed putting it in the primary. Which from my small hydro experience makes sense as you want your low volume high pressure fluids to imping as close to the nozzle as possible to not loose efficiency through turbulence.
Interesting. Questions. When you say 120psi is faster, that's compared to what? How is your nozzle setup in the turbine, got a pic? I briefly considered running a tube through the turbine and aiming it at the wheel... Might have to try that.
Compared to your 225 test it was about the same maybe a bit quicker. It's at the same angle as the entry for the voluet but at the end of it right before it begins in a bit of a dead spot. I don't but it wasn't hard I more or less copied the already engineered inlet to the turbine in a smaller size and used a indexing bit for the nozzle that was fed by a 3/8 line and we just brazzed it in. I did also use a different valve but you drain your tank faster so I'm leaning towards you have limited volume but it's fast mine acts conserving more of its energy which spools faster for the effort/tank pressure. I do some roll racing so my 2.0l neon needs all the help it can get to light the turbo off 😂 highly recommend the hf buar 20v compressor 😂 for my pressure atleast. It doesn't do magic but it helps a lot when you do races back to back. Keep up the good work I bet nozzle size is gonna be more important than we realized 😂 I think I got a bit lucky with bits that looked right and just a bit of work experience doing mini hydro and owning a bodyshop later on/ having to build my air system in said shop.
I would like to see you spool shot the compressor inlet, kinda like a compound. or even the intake manifold? It may be more efficent with the extra heat from burning the extra compressed air. Assuming your on a map sensor , not maf.
As long as the extra air is accounted for in the map, the challenge is always getting more air in, not fuel so shooting air on the cold side will spool quicker plus act a no2 shot
Awesome as always, I assumed the tube feeding into the manifold would need some kind of one way valve. couple other things I wondered, -could put EGT probes where you were going to do the 4 port system, in case you want to go back and try it later you could get double use of the ports. - could you use the turbo speed sensor port as an inlet for more compressed air to further the spool. -Id love to know the math behind the heat energy potential of the exhaust vs the slightly lower total temp. - for a street car could you add an air compressor that only runs on off throttle to refill the tank, or maybe keep running it while on initial trans break without the main air shot? - I assume using bleed off air from the blow off valve would be too little air, too low pressure to refill the tank?
Lots of good thoughts! I actually filmed some math going over the energy calcs for the turbine. But I found an error and never redid it to upload. I wanted to, but didn't know if anyone wanted to see that. I will redo the math and film it now!
This video got my attention. Really cool concept and backed up by the testing at the end. Nice work. P.S. I thought I loved paint marking bolts, but you take it to the next level😉😂
@@patrickcowanjr1 it's in the fuel timming(dump bunch of fuel in the echaust unburned).. and recycling all the boost back to the exhaust manifold same way you doing with compressed air kinda.
this is very interesting. i have questions regarding the AFR readings and what the ecu will do with it. how can you make the ecu not start throwing in a ton of fuel when the "airshot" is engaged? if what makes this work is the pressure and not the heat then would it not have the same effect by installing the airshot on the compressor side? this would then be metered air.
Sweet setup man! Just wondering why you didn't go the route of just running antilag or two step? Would the air tank system work faster than the ecu? Curious to hear ur thinking behind it
Antilag won't work because of the tight converter and being in 1st gear. It's an auto. But I do have two step setup, just haven't gotten the rpms high enough yet to kick in. But I will soon!
deffinatly sounded like it spooled on the brake faster thats for sure. chuck the TC on the lathe make it less efficient to get a much higher stall speed too.. unless you dont have a lockup clutch you kinda of have to watch then. I have mine stall high but lockup with normal driving still happens just off idle :)
I figure once I'm at full power and see hot it works, I'll then address the converter and final gear. Cause until the car is at power, I don't know yet what it needs.
do you get boost creep with the bad gate placement? will it get worse with the C02 injection? I think individual piping on the manifold is your best bet, compression fittings and have them branch towards front of the car like a 4-1 header.
I've never had boost creep. In fact, it's pretty flat. It seems fine even with the air injection. That's method, branching forward, is also what I was thinking. I want ot test it at some point.
@@patrickcowanjr1 i suppose i come from really high cfm flowing honda engines which are a little more sensitive to gate priority placement. Really impressed with the air injection settup great job. Im also autobox on a little 4 cylinder hance compound turbo for transbrake etc... that EFR turbo you have is also ART! ive tuned a few. super impressed with them
I didn’t watch the entire video (yet), but how will injecting air work relating to the tune? Won’t the tune go out of wack since the AFR will read super lean? Or will you compensate for this in the tune when a signal is received that you’re injecting air?
Great question. So for the test, I disabled O2 feedback. Long term, I'm not sure how I'm going to do this. I'm thinking to get it tuned right, then try (if possible) to setup the ECU so disable O2 feedback during and shortly after the air shot hits. But I don't know if I can implement this on a MS3 PRO. That said, the actual fuel going in the motor is fine, as long as I ignore O2 feedback when the air shot is on
@@patrickcowanjr1 I gotcha! Maybe you can switch from closed loop to open loop or something and just utilize manifold pressure + tps or something like that! Interested to see how it works out!
Could you use nitrogen in the tank instead of just regular compressed air to not mess with the afr as much? Not sure how that would affect afr’s comparatively but I would think it would affect them less. Edit: after another 2 minutes of thinking I guess its not really necessary. For wot your pcm is just going to default to as much fuel as you tell it to throw at the motor regardless of what afr’s look like. Only thing it would do is be closer to the actual number for your own reference
The main reason I use air instead of something else is cost. Air is super cheap and abundant! And I can compress it myself to refill the system. That said, one idea would be to feed exhaust into the air inlet of the compressor. That way it would be (mostly) void of oxygen which would not mess with the AFR much as you mention.
@patrickcowanjr1 also, id be worried about unmetered air back feeding a cylinder during valve overlap, the exhaust valve opening. I realize the air is going out the biggest opening, the turbo. But you might have actual pressure in that manifold
This is the first video of yours ive seen. I assume you are taking what the Ford WRC Team did to the next level. This application coupled with other ALS seems viable but at some point doesnt the extra weight come into play? Great content. Subd, Liked Shared 👊🏻
Thanks! This video has been my most popular this quickly! So thanks for sharing, you helped make that happen! Yeah, I've seen a few folks try this (volvo, my friend, Konigseeggggggg) My system, total weight is probably 25lbs tops. So for 25lbs of weight, I can insta-spool a big turbo. If I ran nitrous (the only other insta-spool method I know of) that has weight too, a 10lb bottle weighs about 24lbs full. So my system is similar weight. And while I only have 1 good shot between refills, air is free vs 7 dollars/lb for nitrous at my local track. In theory, this could be safer to have in the car, and safer on the engine too. But simply put, I had to try it!
Go for broke and add a boost bypass to dump into the exh manifold. It's becoming popular on rally cars and really helps due to the huge volume. With spark retard & overfueling antilag it's wild.
I have been putting off doing exactly this since highschool when I drew it on a napkin in a local diner. I have said for YEARS that this would HAVE to work. 😂 Though, my Idea would be to weld in two bungs into the exhaust housing 180° separated, at roughly 90° to their respective turbine blades. I have though about doing this with a diesel. The boosted launches would be wild 😂 My other place I would like to try it is on an Ecotec swapped Miata with a big turbo. Lol
@@patrickcowanjr1 my concerns are with drive pressures exceeding the valve springs. Is that a valid concern, and how would I calculate a safe threshold? I was very surprised that you used 220 psi 😂
I don't think the backpressure in the exhaust is very high when the spool shot hits. I may measure it down the road to see, but I bet it's highest at high boost, not during spool up with the spool shot.
Dude .. this is sick AF ... i been debating on use water/meth and possibly nos , but this is so much smarter and more efficient... mad respect bro .... is this still the same bp you made the 1000hp on to? .. and i got to get a better manifold , cuz i running 34psi and dont get that good reaction .. tbh i feel the backpressure holding the engine back 😅... but man you is giving me some ideas .. and much respect for the knowledge brotha ... peace and love bro, keep it radical, stay safe, and build on..l8z broski and keep having fun
So I will try it at some point. But if I'm at zero PSI boost and spray it in the intake, the air won't build boost cause the turbo speed is too low, so it will just spray out the air filter. But once the turbo reaches a certain speed/boost pressure, it should work. I figure perhaps a dual approach. Air in exhaust at first, air in intake after a certain boost, would be most efficient.
@@patrickcowanjr1you could do a high volume low pressure ( 1/2” hose) to low volume high pressure nozzle into the valute of the turbo ( the end of the compressor wheel.) And have the air spin the turbo wheel
You want real fun Get yourself a variable turbo. With a variable turbo you can build full boost in neutral 💀 And they flow more than a std turbo when the vanes were open
The better way to do this is with high flow valves and nitrous bottles or scuba bottles. Better yet just spray actual nitrous into the engine. The issue is carrying all that weight when realistically you should be able to spool it without this stuff. Plenty of 300 ci engines spooling 106mm turbos with g trim turbines. I can't see what you're doing being harder then that. Big lazy extremely old design turbine design vs latest stuff and tiny turbo. Nice try though it's cool to try it.
![สาวเมืองเพชร - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kEt7F9PvO3I/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for sharing. I tried something like this in the turbine housing using a -4 fitting and an air compressor. It didn’t change much so I discounted the idea. Was trying to get away from nitrous with my 4g63/PG fox body. I ended up going to compound turbos. That along with a dump valve helped a lot. I’m now switching to a 2jz/PG and I might revisit your idea with larger piping and more pressure. I might also try it on my AWD 4g colt. Nice to find another small engine auto guy to watch!!!
Be careful welding stainless bungs with the plug in. Sometimes the heat really helps them get galled up and locked in forever.
Good tip! This actually happened... took a while to fix the threads!
Yes , but won't it warp without something ? So there is no happy median 😢😅... I'm just learning welding diff materials , my understanding is ss is great for heat , but also takes alotta hea to weld ?
@@mastercricket7626if it warps it'll also warp with the plug screwed in and bind it up. I find it best to weld without a plug and just confime it's in good shape by running a tap through it (half a turn or so for npt) once it's cool.
@@chathamcnc3944 right on brotha ... so it best to just weld it slowly and run a tap after ... ty bro cuz I will remember this for future reference... again ty for the responce .. peace and love bro , keep it rad , stay safe , and build on ... l8z famz
There's a special pipe tape that prevents stainless galling. I learned stainless studs & nuts for a turbo are NOT a good idea lol.
Really looking forward to do this on my diesel. Thank you for the idea.
Did you need to tune for the compressed air shot?? Or just let it rip? Thank you very much!
This is awesome and such a simple way to get a big turbo to spool up. Nice.
I know, I'm surprised this isn't common.
I did something similar but I found my setup on a bigger turbo spools faster at 120psi tank pressure and I have one nozzle in the turbine housing. I think your loosing air speed putting it in the primary. Which from my small hydro experience makes sense as you want your low volume high pressure fluids to imping as close to the nozzle as possible to not loose efficiency through turbulence.
Interesting. Questions.
When you say 120psi is faster, that's compared to what?
How is your nozzle setup in the turbine, got a pic?
I briefly considered running a tube through the turbine and aiming it at the wheel... Might have to try that.
Compared to your 225 test it was about the same maybe a bit quicker. It's at the same angle as the entry for the voluet but at the end of it right before it begins in a bit of a dead spot. I don't but it wasn't hard I more or less copied the already engineered inlet to the turbine in a smaller size and used a indexing bit for the nozzle that was fed by a 3/8 line and we just brazzed it in. I did also use a different valve but you drain your tank faster so I'm leaning towards you have limited volume but it's fast mine acts conserving more of its energy which spools faster for the effort/tank pressure. I do some roll racing so my 2.0l neon needs all the help it can get to light the turbo off 😂 highly recommend the hf buar 20v compressor 😂 for my pressure atleast. It doesn't do magic but it helps a lot when you do races back to back. Keep up the good work I bet nozzle size is gonna be more important than we realized 😂 I think I got a bit lucky with bits that looked right and just a bit of work experience doing mini hydro and owning a bodyshop later on/ having to build my air system in said shop.
Congrats and great job. This is going to be cool
Thanks! I like it. It seems to work well.
I would like to see you spool shot the compressor inlet, kinda like a compound. or even the intake manifold? It may be more efficent with the extra heat from burning the extra compressed air. Assuming your on a map sensor , not maf.
Well... you can see the future! Cause I'm going to try that.
Cause yeah burning it is more heat as you say. And burning it is more power. So double benefit.
As long as the extra air is accounted for in the map, the challenge is always getting more air in, not fuel so shooting air on the cold side will spool quicker plus act a no2 shot
I want to try it out!
Awesome as always, I assumed the tube feeding into the manifold would need some kind of one way valve.
couple other things I wondered,
-could put EGT probes where you were going to do the 4 port system, in case you want to go back and try it later you could get double use of the ports.
- could you use the turbo speed sensor port as an inlet for more compressed air to further the spool.
-Id love to know the math behind the heat energy potential of the exhaust vs the slightly lower total temp.
- for a street car could you add an air compressor that only runs on off throttle to refill the tank, or maybe keep running it while on initial trans break without the main air shot?
- I assume using bleed off air from the blow off valve would be too little air, too low pressure to refill the tank?
Lots of good thoughts!
I actually filmed some math going over the energy calcs for the turbine. But I found an error and never redid it to upload. I wanted to, but didn't know if anyone wanted to see that.
I will redo the math and film it now!
This video got my attention. Really cool concept and backed up by the testing at the end. Nice work.
P.S. I thought I loved paint marking bolts, but you take it to the next level😉😂
Thanks! Yeah I'm a big fan of marking bolts.
Great work and explanation.
Glad you liked it!
One step closer in your push the to the 5's!
fresh air anti-lag.
I have never tried that. Need to learn more about it.
@@patrickcowanjr1 it's in the fuel timming(dump bunch of fuel in the echaust unburned).. and recycling all the boost back to the exhaust manifold same way you doing with compressed air kinda.
Maybe next time you could also take a look at the xs manifold from performance designs, awesome video!
this is very interesting. i have questions regarding the AFR readings and what the ecu will do with it. how can you make the ecu not start throwing in a ton of fuel when the "airshot" is engaged?
if what makes this work is the pressure and not the heat then would it not have the same effect by installing the airshot on the compressor side? this would then be metered air.
For now I disabled closed loop ego correction.
I want to try shooting air in the intake, but haven't tried it yet.
Sweet setup man! Just wondering why you didn't go the route of just running antilag or two step? Would the air tank system work faster than the ecu? Curious to hear ur thinking behind it
Antilag won't work because of the tight converter and being in 1st gear. It's an auto. But I do have two step setup, just haven't gotten the rpms high enough yet to kick in. But I will soon!
@@patrickcowanjr1 not to mention this is a whole lot nicer to your valves and turbine 😂
deffinatly sounded like it spooled on the brake faster thats for sure. chuck the TC on the lathe make it less efficient to get a much higher stall speed too.. unless you dont have a lockup clutch you kinda of have to watch then. I have mine stall high but lockup with normal driving still happens just off idle :)
works great bud. much safer than nitrous. i hate nitrous
I figure once I'm at full power and see hot it works, I'll then address the converter and final gear. Cause until the car is at power, I don't know yet what it needs.
It does work well! I like nitrous, but I like this a lot more.
do you get boost creep with the bad gate placement? will it get worse with the C02 injection? I think individual piping on the manifold is your best bet, compression fittings and have them branch towards front of the car like a 4-1 header.
I've never had boost creep. In fact, it's pretty flat. It seems fine even with the air injection. That's method, branching forward, is also what I was thinking. I want ot test it at some point.
@@patrickcowanjr1 i suppose i come from really high cfm flowing honda engines which are a little more sensitive to gate priority placement. Really impressed with the air injection settup great job. Im also autobox on a little 4 cylinder hance compound turbo for transbrake etc... that EFR turbo you have is also ART! ive tuned a few. super impressed with them
nice idea.
But when the turbo its extreem hot, and you inject cold air... isn't that going to damage the turbine wheel? (just an idea? )
I don't think so, but time will tell! My buddy ran this for years without issue. Volvo and konigseggggg have as well.
I didn’t watch the entire video (yet), but how will injecting air work relating to the tune? Won’t the tune go out of wack since the AFR will read super lean? Or will you compensate for this in the tune when a signal is received that you’re injecting air?
Great question. So for the test, I disabled O2 feedback. Long term, I'm not sure how I'm going to do this. I'm thinking to get it tuned right, then try (if possible) to setup the ECU so disable O2 feedback during and shortly after the air shot hits. But I don't know if I can implement this on a MS3 PRO. That said, the actual fuel going in the motor is fine, as long as I ignore O2 feedback when the air shot is on
@@patrickcowanjr1 I gotcha!
Maybe you can switch from closed loop to open loop or something and just utilize manifold pressure + tps or something like that!
Interested to see how it works out!
Could you use nitrogen in the tank instead of just regular compressed air to not mess with the afr as much? Not sure how that would affect afr’s comparatively but I would think it would affect them less.
Edit: after another 2 minutes of thinking I guess its not really necessary. For wot your pcm is just going to default to as much fuel as you tell it to throw at the motor regardless of what afr’s look like. Only thing it would do is be closer to the actual number for your own reference
The main reason I use air instead of something else is cost. Air is super cheap and abundant! And I can compress it myself to refill the system.
That said, one idea would be to feed exhaust into the air inlet of the compressor. That way it would be (mostly) void of oxygen which would not mess with the AFR much as you mention.
Compressed air is 78% nitrogen
@@fastinradfordable and its 21% oxygen. When you’re measuring oxygen content post combustion thats not a negligible amount.
Would you want a nozzle pointing directly at the turbine wheel
I don't know? Perhaps. Maybe I should test that.
@patrickcowanjr1 also, id be worried about unmetered air back feeding a cylinder during valve overlap, the exhaust valve opening. I realize the air is going out the biggest opening, the turbo. But you might have actual pressure in that manifold
Looking good!
Thanks!!!
That's rad.
This is the first video of yours ive seen. I assume you are taking what the Ford WRC Team did to the next level.
This application coupled with other ALS seems viable but at some point doesnt the extra weight come into play?
Great content. Subd, Liked Shared 👊🏻
Thanks! This video has been my most popular this quickly! So thanks for sharing, you helped make that happen!
Yeah, I've seen a few folks try this (volvo, my friend, Konigseeggggggg)
My system, total weight is probably 25lbs tops. So for 25lbs of weight, I can insta-spool a big turbo. If I ran nitrous (the only other insta-spool method I know of) that has weight too, a 10lb bottle weighs about 24lbs full. So my system is similar weight. And while I only have 1 good shot between refills, air is free vs 7 dollars/lb for nitrous at my local track. In theory, this could be safer to have in the car, and safer on the engine too.
But simply put, I had to try it!
Go for broke and add a boost bypass to dump into the exh manifold. It's becoming popular on rally cars and really helps due to the huge volume. With spark retard & overfueling antilag it's wild.
I'm going to look into this! Thanks for the comment!
Also I love the username!
You managed to hit twincharge boost response without a blower
Pretty much! It handles transients really well.
Thats a lot of marking on all the bolts, holy shit
Yeap!
I have been putting off doing exactly this since highschool when I drew it on a napkin in a local diner. I have said for YEARS that this would HAVE to work. 😂 Though, my Idea would be to weld in two bungs into the exhaust housing 180° separated, at roughly 90° to their respective turbine blades. I have though about doing this with a diesel. The boosted launches would be wild 😂
My other place I would like to try it is on an Ecotec swapped Miata with a big turbo. Lol
Try your version and report back! We need more data.
@@patrickcowanjr1 my concerns are with drive pressures exceeding the valve springs. Is that a valid concern, and how would I calculate a safe threshold? I was very surprised that you used 220 psi 😂
I don't think the backpressure in the exhaust is very high when the spool shot hits. I may measure it down the road to see, but I bet it's highest at high boost, not during spool up with the spool shot.
@@patrickcowanjr1 I guess I didn't consider that 220 psi in a 1/2" tube would significantly drop pressure as it enters a much larger diameter area.
What turbo are you running on the miata?
It's a borg warner EFR 7670. 0.86 A/R Turbine I believe.
Dude .. this is sick AF ... i been debating on use water/meth and possibly nos , but this is so much smarter and more efficient... mad respect bro .... is this still the same bp you made the 1000hp on to? .. and i got to get a better manifold , cuz i running 34psi and dont get that good reaction .. tbh i feel the backpressure holding the engine back 😅... but man you is giving me some ideas .. and much respect for the knowledge brotha ... peace and love bro, keep it radical, stay safe, and build on..l8z broski and keep having fun
Thanks! This is same motor since 2017. It's seen 40psi, 9.3k rpm. But not 1k hp. At least, not yet!
@@patrickcowanjr1 sweet ... I got to get some springs and retainers , cuz damn 9300 sounds insane but radical 😂.. much love and respect brotha
Sorry if i missed it, but why not just use anti-lag?
With a torque converter and being in 1st gear, it can't free rev like you can when the clutch is pushed in. So it doesn't work.
@@patrickcowanjr1 Ahhh, fair enough. What about an injector in the exhaust then?
i think you would like compound turbo.
My last setup was compound!
@@patrickcowanjr1 Awsmome. I love my compound settup. Ive got it pretty dialed in. 1000bhp on tap 45 psi at 3400 rpm 8600 rpm limiter. its wild
Wat.
Need details! You have a build thread? I have many questions.
Why not put that in the engine instead of the exhaust? Compressed air supercharging is a thing and it legit works.
So I will try it at some point. But if I'm at zero PSI boost and spray it in the intake, the air won't build boost cause the turbo speed is too low, so it will just spray out the air filter. But once the turbo reaches a certain speed/boost pressure, it should work.
I figure perhaps a dual approach. Air in exhaust at first, air in intake after a certain boost, would be most efficient.
@@patrickcowanjr1you could do a high volume low pressure ( 1/2” hose) to low volume high pressure nozzle into the valute of the turbo ( the end of the compressor wheel.)
And have the air spin the turbo wheel
Don't want it to end up looking like the snake pit under my hood, huh?😂
Cracking me up, " been rambling for 4 minutes and staring for 4 hours" LOL
I hide stuff under the car!
You want real fun
Get yourself a variable turbo.
With a variable turbo you can build full boost in neutral 💀
And they flow more than a std turbo when the vanes were open
You say that... I wonder how hard a diy vgt would be...
@@patrickcowanjr1diesel power scourge has a vgt housing for s300 and s400 turbos
Put it too close the the block and to many points of failure put it closer to your turbos
The better way to do this is with high flow valves and nitrous bottles or scuba bottles.
Better yet just spray actual nitrous into the engine.
The issue is carrying all that weight when realistically you should be able to spool it without this stuff.
Plenty of 300 ci engines spooling 106mm turbos with g trim turbines. I can't see what you're doing being harder then that. Big lazy extremely old design turbine design vs latest stuff and tiny turbo.
Nice try though it's cool to try it.
absolutely great video and craft 🤌 happy to see someone smart actually building something good without lobotomy-smile cover pictures
Glad you enjoyed it! I like to get things done. You'll see some of that if you check my other videos!