Can there ever be such a thing as universal values? Or is this just a convenient conceit? Let us know what you think in the comments! To watch the full video (with a free trial) follow this link: iai.tv/video/the-myth-of-universal-values-tommy-curry?TH-cam&+comment
If there's no such thing as universal values, how does he allege the same people are benefiting thoughout history? You need universal values to allege universal benefit.
There's a principle of social self preservation that tends to work. A society that doesn't defend itself from rampant murder, for example, is soon to be a former society. The job of convincing everyone in society of this is a different matter. Morality is a story to tell, not everyone's going to listen.
There is, the world of forms exists and is where pure ideas and values reside. Our flawed hands can only cobbler together mere reflections of the ideals that live there. He is valid in his recognition that we do not all cobble these ideas together the same way or even well enough to call things like freedom their true ideal form, as we tend to do as a society. His ascertain seems misguided, but it does peal back the vail of the deeper concepts involved.
I think this can be tested in the field of development economics where their often is a faux shared morality imposed on another culture that inevitably fails or leads to conflict.
Please read our paper on stasis. Here is the abstract. This paper presents a comprehensive exploration of Delta B (∆B), a quantitative measure of structural deviation from an ideal state of stasis, using the recently discovered Einstein tile as a primary model. By integrating entropy (∆S) as a fundamental descriptor of disorder, we propose a mathematical framework that characterizes deviations from perfect aperiodicity. We expand upon the concept of stasis-not merely as a physical state but as a multifaceted equilibrium encompassing mental, emotional, psychological, physiological, intellectual, and philosophical dimensions. Due to the inherent complexity of harmonizing these six aspects (the "six-body problem"), true stasis remains unattainable, yet it represents a universal pursuit in both physical systems and life forms. Through the definition of a quadratic function derived from thermodynamic principles, we analyze the behavior of ∆B in relation to entropy changes. This provides new insights into the stability and transformations of systems striving for stasis under varying conditions of order and disorder.
These comments are so interesting. It’s almost like the people that are disagreeing with him are doing verbal as well as logical gymnastics in order to disagree with him. Or there’s a some strange propensity to speak about other forms of racism in order to deflect. Really interesting to read all of this. Thank you
Seems more an argument against a certain idealism than universalism per se. But he makes an effectively relativistic argument, missing the fact that those he's referring to as universalists are themselves relativistic. That "universalism" operates relativistically. He almost gets this when he insists upon the impossibility of universalism, but he doesn't question the relativism directly at all and takes up the position himself. That's just falling into the same foundations of the very parties he claims opposition to. And like the so-called universalists he criticizes, he, too, succumbs to a basically misanthropic and tribalistic philosophy. As if all humankind had nothing in common. As if humankind had no shared origin. As if a united humanity, a whole encompassing the vast diversity of the planet, were not worth striving for. It sets up absurd desires for eternal victimhood and sounds an awful lot like afro-pessimism.
@@someonenotnoone @shacharias specifically argued that universalists are relativistic. In no other context did i see him coming close to objective morality. How is your comment relevant to what he is saying? spoiler : it sure isnt, my point here is you are too full of yourself.
@@thienyetan2035 I literally referred to something he said, and you even acknowledge that he came close to the context of objective morality. You are just upset by me, you don't have an argument here.
@someonenotnoone oh brother you missed the mark by a thousand miles. In no context did he supported objectivism even if he came closed. What your dissent about then? Anyone who came close to the topic must adhere to your view? Is that subjectivism? I'm not just upset by just you, I'm disappointed by your demonstration of lack of understanding others narrative yet claiming subjectivity.
@@thienyetan2035 bro just forget this guy, he changes topic frequently and when he does stick he keeps on missing the point. There is no point to make him smarter than how stupid he is right now.
The English have never come up with a document proclaiming universal values or human rights. So what's he moaning at us for? He should go whine at the French, or the Americans.
"That's a long time to make the same error consistently..." History has always been written by the winners. Is Curry suggesting history give the losers a chance now?
If your a marxist everything is an expression of power. Most people of this world would consider murder gravely wrong. So that's a universal value. Is that an expression of power? Maybe. The entire world civilized world applies force to enforce these values. I'm sure subaltern's would love to go back to ritual human sacrifice but it's not going to happen bucko. What will happen is that your gonna remain a incel while you ramble on the internet about muh colonialism like that's the reason why you've failed in life so far.
@devynjanzen I get that. But hear me out. This world has progressed ONLY because of empires. Take for example the Roman empire which extended across three continents. Africa Asia Europe. They are the best example of a cohesive multicultural society. At the same time the Romans BRUTALIZED many tribes and peoples. Including, you guessed it, the British! Well their ancestors. Who do you think the British got their idea from. I agree that there must be a reconciliation between white people and brown and black folk. White people need to recognize the past and try to make up for it. Not like importing massive amounts of immigrants. Which hurt traditional minorities like black and native Americans. Talk to any black construction crew. I bring these other topics up to make aware of the
@@devynjanzen it's not so black and white true. But universal values only become globalized in empires with a strong moral code. The problem isn't that values are imposed onto minorities, it's the lack of representation and input from the minority's values that create oppression. It's easier to exploit. But that's not what's happening in America is it? I'm going to focus solely on black people. There are more black people in the film, in the STEM Field, in politics including Republicans, there's more young black Republicans than ever before. But do you feel represented? Respected? Do you feel like black people like they have agency? Everyone honors black culture but nobody respects it. Everybody wants to act black but nobody wants to be black. The best move Black and White people can make during a period of time where there is a lack of political solutions. There has to be a cultural change, and the first step is for black and white people to attend each other's churches. Both black and white people HIGHLY religious. It would make the act of forgiveness and apology much easier. But remember, the people on top would HATE for that to happen. The funny hat and funny nose people hate Christians and that includes black folk. If your people ever became a highly organized group they would go after you next. Because all they see you and I as units of labour, which is communist. Humans are much more complex and unique. Each individual is both a product of their environment, during their current time and place they were born. Every race has their place. White supremacy is a shield for the people who actually rule this world. And I'll finish with this. It's not white people who are big bankers. Whites and blacks are just their dogs to implement control and enslave us. The same people who are genociding the people in Gaza. It's a travesty. And shame on white and black folk for not seeing past what's being shown and start noticing patterns.
Universal means Universal The **Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)** is a historic document adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December 10, 1948. It consists of a preamble and 30 articles that outline fundamental human rights to be universally protected. Here are some key highlights: - **Article 1**: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. - **Article 3**: Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person. - **Article 5**: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. - **Article 18**: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. - **Article 19**: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression. - **Article 23**: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, and to just and favorable conditions of work. The UDHR has inspired many national and international laws and has been a cornerstone of global human rights efforts.
Except it’s been violated all the time by virtually all parties. But the real problem is, some violators still get to play righteous and act as a judge and an enforcer. Universal values may not be a bad idea, but “promoting universal values” has involved a lot of dirty business.
@someonenotnoone i would say time and energy separated our needs in the book and idea is that together creates a category that structures our world. Thanks for the comments
@@someonenotnoone You can deny oxygen's value all you want, but your lungs don’t care about your philosophy. Reality defines value, and it’s telling you to keep breathing. Dont hold your breath.
Opps The trans-Saharan slave trade, also known as the Arab slave trade, began as early as the 3rd millennium BC. Records indicate that during the reign of the Egyptian king Sneferu, slaves were captured and transported from what is now modern Sudan to Egypt. This trade continued for centuries, with significant activity from the 7th century AD until the 20th century. The trans-Saharan routes were primarily used to move slaves from sub-Saharan Africa to North Africa, where they were sold to Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilizations. This trade had a profound impact on the regions involved and the people who were enslaved.
I've been reading ancient texts from the 3rd to the 1st millennium BCE for half my life now, and never seen any mention of this. You sure that's not a private fantasy of yours? 😂
He's contradicting himself with his own presentation. Using Continental philosophy terms, he explores Notions of the particular outside of his own consciousness.
That's unclear and vague question. 'Exist' in what sense? As theoretical or empirical entites? Does it mean 'Do universal preferences exist?' Or is it 'Do universal srandards exist?' Or is it 'Do universal practice-related beliefs exist?' Does 'universal' mean 'universally spread' or 'universally applicable'?
Sure seems to me that it's synonymous with objective morality and the idea that people can be correct or incorrect in their moral judgments, as opposed to having their preferences which can never be exclusively objectively classified as correct or incorrect.
@@thienyetan2035 Morality is subjective therefore there are no objective negative rights. If you expect something from someone you should get their agreement.
Curry is the author of The Man-Not: Race, Class, Genre, and the Dilemmas of Black Manhood. In academic circles, The Man-Not is controversial for its discussion of the rape of Black males during American slavery by White men and women, its depiction of White feminism as the perfection of patriarchy and American imperialism, and the text's documenting of the rape and domestic abuse Black males suffer at the hands of Black men and women in their communities. Too bad he left out the sub-Saharan Slave trade and the castration of black males before their service in North Africa and the Middle-East. Compare and Contrast
Well, Wikipedia already provided us, quite literally, with the content of your first paragraph. Regarding the point on sub-Saharan slavery, you are right-no slavery system is desirable or inherently benign. Still, I believe your argument, as presented here, commits a form of false equivalence. An apple may be as round as a ball, but that doesn’t mean the latter is edible.
nothing new here. hobbes, spinoza, nietzsche, quine, foucault, american pragmatism and so on. good old fashioned natural reductionism and evolutionary tribalism. if it makes you happy...
Can there ever be such a thing as universal values? Or is this just a convenient conceit? Let us know what you think in the comments!
To watch the full video (with a free trial) follow this link: iai.tv/video/the-myth-of-universal-values-tommy-curry?TH-cam&+comment
If there's no such thing as universal values, how does he allege the same people are benefiting thoughout history? You need universal values to allege universal benefit.
There's a principle of social self preservation that tends to work.
A society that doesn't defend itself from rampant murder, for example, is soon to be a former society.
The job of convincing everyone in society of this is a different matter.
Morality is a story to tell, not everyone's going to listen.
@@lkae4 Because the people he's talking about are a minority and not everyone. He isn't alleging universal benefit.
There is, the world of forms exists and is where pure ideas and values reside. Our flawed hands can only cobbler together mere reflections of the ideals that live there. He is valid in his recognition that we do not all cobble these ideas together the same way or even well enough to call things like freedom their true ideal form, as we tend to do as a society. His ascertain seems misguided, but it does peal back the vail of the deeper concepts involved.
@@alexwixom4599 Sounds like mystical nonsense. Not physically real.
I think this can be tested in the field of development economics where their often is a faux shared morality imposed on another culture that inevitably fails or leads to conflict.
Please read our paper on stasis.
Here is the abstract.
This paper presents a comprehensive exploration of Delta B (∆B), a quantitative measure of structural deviation from an ideal state of stasis, using the recently discovered Einstein tile as a primary model. By integrating entropy (∆S) as a fundamental descriptor of disorder, we propose a mathematical framework that characterizes deviations from perfect aperiodicity. We expand upon the concept of stasis-not merely as a physical state but as a multifaceted equilibrium encompassing mental, emotional, psychological, physiological, intellectual, and philosophical dimensions. Due to the inherent complexity of harmonizing these six aspects (the "six-body problem"), true stasis remains unattainable, yet it represents a universal pursuit in both physical systems and life forms. Through the definition of a quadratic function derived from thermodynamic principles, we analyze the behavior of ∆B in relation to entropy changes. This provides new insights into the stability and transformations of systems striving for stasis under varying conditions of order and disorder.
These comments are so interesting. It’s almost like the people that are disagreeing with him are doing verbal as well as logical gymnastics in order to disagree with him. Or there’s a some strange propensity to speak about other forms of racism in order to deflect. Really interesting to read all of this. Thank you
oh i disagree with this guy in the video, but what verbal and logical gymnastics did you notice? I would like to hear your pov ty.
It is hard to disagree with such wordy gymnastics without oneself resorting to wordy gymnastics.
Homie is talking to a room full of people who will simply never hear him.
Do you understand what he's talking about then? If you do, can you tell me?
@thomasdequincey5811 nah I didn't catch it, I was hoping you could fill me in.
Seems more an argument against a certain idealism than universalism per se. But he makes an effectively relativistic argument, missing the fact that those he's referring to as universalists are themselves relativistic. That "universalism" operates relativistically. He almost gets this when he insists upon the impossibility of universalism, but he doesn't question the relativism directly at all and takes up the position himself. That's just falling into the same foundations of the very parties he claims opposition to. And like the so-called universalists he criticizes, he, too, succumbs to a basically misanthropic and tribalistic philosophy. As if all humankind had nothing in common. As if humankind had no shared origin. As if a united humanity, a whole encompassing the vast diversity of the planet, were not worth striving for. It sets up absurd desires for eternal victimhood and sounds an awful lot like afro-pessimism.
Humans having things in common doesn't mean morality is objective.
@@someonenotnoone @shacharias specifically argued that universalists are relativistic. In no other context did i see him coming close to objective morality. How is your comment relevant to what he is saying? spoiler : it sure isnt, my point here is you are too full of yourself.
@@thienyetan2035 I literally referred to something he said, and you even acknowledge that he came close to the context of objective morality.
You are just upset by me, you don't have an argument here.
@someonenotnoone oh brother you missed the mark by a thousand miles. In no context did he supported objectivism even if he came closed. What your dissent about then? Anyone who came close to the topic must adhere to your view? Is that subjectivism?
I'm not just upset by just you, I'm disappointed by your demonstration of lack of understanding others narrative yet claiming subjectivity.
@@thienyetan2035 bro just forget this guy, he changes topic frequently and when he does stick he keeps on missing the point. There is no point to make him smarter than how stupid he is right now.
The English have never come up with a document proclaiming universal values or human rights. So what's he moaning at us for? He should go whine at the French, or the Americans.
You clicked on the video…
Yep, we Americans are idealist..not the best but we do try.
he spittin on the analytics
"That's a long time to make the same error consistently..."
History has always been written by the winners. Is Curry suggesting history give the losers a chance now?
Does your culture define winners and losers by who kills who?
Yes, or suffer the consequences whatever they may be. Undermining larges swaths of humanity eventually comes back to bite everyone in the ass.
Universalism is an expression of power. Can the subaltern speak?
If your a marxist everything is an expression of power. Most people of this world would consider murder gravely wrong. So that's a universal value. Is that an expression of power? Maybe. The entire world civilized world applies force to enforce these values. I'm sure subaltern's would love to go back to ritual human sacrifice but it's not going to happen bucko. What will happen is that your gonna remain a incel while you ramble on the internet about muh colonialism like that's the reason why you've failed in life so far.
Universal values do exist.
@redlizard865 maybe so. The issue comes when one specific group claims they offer "universal values." When in reality, they are tainted.
@devynjanzen I get that. But hear me out. This world has progressed ONLY because of empires. Take for example the Roman empire which extended across three continents. Africa Asia Europe. They are the best example of a cohesive multicultural society. At the same time the Romans BRUTALIZED many tribes and peoples. Including, you guessed it, the British! Well their ancestors. Who do you think the British got their idea from. I agree that there must be a reconciliation between white people and brown and black folk. White people need to recognize the past and try to make up for it. Not like importing massive amounts of immigrants. Which hurt traditional minorities like black and native Americans. Talk to any black construction crew. I bring these other topics up to make aware of the
@@devynjanzen it's not so black and white true. But universal values only become globalized in empires with a strong moral code. The problem isn't that values are imposed onto minorities, it's the lack of representation and input from the minority's values that create oppression. It's easier to exploit. But that's not what's happening in America is it? I'm going to focus solely on black people. There are more black people in the film, in the STEM Field, in politics including Republicans, there's more young black Republicans than ever before. But do you feel represented? Respected? Do you feel like black people like they have agency? Everyone honors black culture but nobody respects it. Everybody wants to act black but nobody wants to be black. The best move Black and White people can make during a period of time where there is a lack of political solutions. There has to be a cultural change, and the first step is for black and white people to attend each other's churches. Both black and white people HIGHLY religious. It would make the act of forgiveness and apology much easier. But remember, the people on top would HATE for that to happen. The funny hat and funny nose people hate Christians and that includes black folk. If your people ever became a highly organized group they would go after you next. Because all they see you and I as units of labour, which is communist. Humans are much more complex and unique. Each individual is both a product of their environment, during their current time and place they were born. Every race has their place. White supremacy is a shield for the people who actually rule this world. And I'll finish with this. It's not white people who are big bankers. Whites and blacks are just their dogs to implement control and enslave us. The same people who are genociding the people in Gaza. It's a travesty. And shame on white and black folk for not seeing past what's being shown and start noticing patterns.
Universal means Universal
The **Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)** is a historic document adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on December 10, 1948. It consists of a preamble and 30 articles that outline fundamental human rights to be universally protected. Here are some key highlights:
- **Article 1**: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
- **Article 3**: Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person.
- **Article 5**: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
- **Article 18**: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion.
- **Article 19**: Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression.
- **Article 23**: Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, and to just and favorable conditions of work.
The UDHR has inspired many national and international laws and has been a cornerstone of global human rights efforts.
Tautologies are true but not necessarily meaningful.
Except it’s been violated all the time by virtually all parties. But the real problem is, some violators still get to play righteous and act as a judge and an enforcer. Universal values may not be a bad idea, but “promoting universal values” has involved a lot of dirty business.
@@someonenotnoone meaning according to whom?
@@thienyetan2035 According to the people you're trying to communicate with when you use a tautology.
@@someonenotnoone nah.. rather, meaning according to the people who uses tautology compared to this narrow context.
There is one universal value that we all cherish. But you have to go to underground Theory thinker Dave McKerracher. Timenergy is that Universal value
That's like saying oxygen is a value. It's a need, we didn't choose to need oxygen.
@someonenotnoone i would say time and energy separated our needs in the book and idea is that together creates a category that structures our world. Thanks for the comments
@@someonenotnoone You can deny oxygen's value all you want, but your lungs don’t care about your philosophy. Reality defines value, and it’s telling you to keep breathing. Dont hold your breath.
@@thienyetan2035 I denied that people choose to, but it's hilarious watching you reiterate my point as if you're the one making it for the first time
@@someonenotnoone I was equally amused by that!
Shout out to Reny Ture
Opps
The trans-Saharan slave trade, also known as the Arab slave trade, began as early as the 3rd millennium BC. Records indicate that during the reign of the Egyptian king Sneferu, slaves were captured and transported from what is now modern Sudan to Egypt. This trade continued for centuries, with significant activity from the 7th century AD until the 20th century.
The trans-Saharan routes were primarily used to move slaves from sub-Saharan Africa to North Africa, where they were sold to Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilizations. This trade had a profound impact on the regions involved and the people who were enslaved.
White people didn't benefit from slavery if black people did?
I've been reading ancient texts from the 3rd to the 1st millennium BCE for half my life now, and never seen any mention of this. You sure that's not a private fantasy of yours? 😂
@nyarparablepsis872 If so, it's a fantasy of several AI large language models, too.
@nyarparablepsis872 WOW GUYS!! HE READ ANCIENT TEXTS GUESS THAT SETTLES IT, WE GOT THE NEXT INDIANA JONES HERE. Smooth brain
What does this have to do with this video?
He's contradicting himself with his own presentation. Using Continental philosophy terms, he explores Notions of the particular outside of his own consciousness.
Unclear presentation. Erroneous universal values are much more prevalent in Asia than in the West.
That's unclear and vague question. 'Exist' in what sense? As theoretical or empirical entites? Does it mean 'Do universal preferences exist?' Or is it 'Do universal srandards exist?' Or is it 'Do universal practice-related beliefs exist?' Does 'universal' mean 'universally spread' or 'universally applicable'?
Sure seems to me that it's synonymous with objective morality and the idea that people can be correct or incorrect in their moral judgments, as opposed to having their preferences which can never be exclusively objectively classified as correct or incorrect.
@@someonenotnoone congrats morality is subjective, hence we should support tommy curry? oh and maybe you?
@@thienyetan2035 hence negative rights are bullshit
@@thienyetan2035 Morality is subjective therefore there are no objective negative rights. If you expect something from someone you should get their agreement.
@@someonenotnoone and how are you supposed to get said agreement?
Curry is the author of The Man-Not: Race, Class, Genre, and the Dilemmas of Black Manhood. In academic circles, The Man-Not is controversial for its discussion of the rape of Black males during American slavery by White men and women, its depiction of White feminism as the perfection of patriarchy and American imperialism, and the text's documenting of the rape and domestic abuse Black males suffer at the hands of Black men and women in their communities.
Too bad he left out the sub-Saharan Slave trade and the castration of black males before their service in North Africa and the Middle-East. Compare and Contrast
Well, Wikipedia already provided us, quite literally, with the content of your first paragraph.
Regarding the point on sub-Saharan slavery, you are right-no slavery system is desirable or inherently benign. Still, I believe your argument, as presented here, commits a form of false equivalence. An apple may be as round as a ball, but that doesn’t mean the latter is edible.
@@andreselectrico none mine, all Co-Pilot. However, to prompt AI you need knowledge for the ask.
@@nuqwestr I´m not calling into question your knowledge but your argument about slavery.
@@nuqwestr I have no issue with your knowledge but with your argument.
nothing new here. hobbes, spinoza, nietzsche, quine, foucault, american pragmatism and so on. good old fashioned natural reductionism and evolutionary tribalism. if it makes you happy...
Wakanda Forever.
Cringe
Didn't Stan Lee, a white guy, invent Wakander and Black Panther?
@@thomasdequincey5811 Black people's literal entire identity was created by white men lol.
Professor of 'Philosophy and Black Male Studies'
These types of talks are just words followed by words followed by words, that ultimately don't mean anything. It's all pure babble.
@@previnder nope. These are the roots that all who have the capability of comprehension can use as source for more meaningful solutions to problems
This guy is gigo. Do people communicate? Comms value is universal.
Stop using victim narrative.
People will stop using victim narratives when violence is gone. Don't hold your breath.
@someonenotnoone when would violence be gone? Can violence not exist at all? Perhaps you wanna read what Wiggenstein and Foucault says about violence?
@@thienyetan2035 I can imagine violence doesn't exist, just like you imagine victims don't exist.
@@thienyetan2035 Is no one a victim? It's all just stories, just narratives? Sounds like you're telling yourself quite the stories.
Comms value clearly isn't universal because I can't make sense of what you are saying.
Hahahahahaha
woops