INEOS Test Boat: Initial reaction
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2024
- INEOS Britannia have launched their LEQ12 test boat. Mozzy, Rob and Tom talk through the features on view and speculated about some of the tech on display.
The boat is packed full of sensors, but have they missed out of A-B foil testing? No lowered deck?
0:00 - Intro
0:40 - Aesthetics
2:00 - Hull features
3:40 - Sensors
8:40 - Foils
14:50 - Jib track
18:56 - Tow testing mast?
21:59 - Comparison to 1st gen test boats
22:44 - Buying an AC40
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
#MozzySails supported by @Allen Brothers (fittings) Ltd www.allenbrothers.co.uk/
#AmericasCup #AC37Recon #AC37 - กีฬา
Mozzy makes the America's Cup twice as enjoyable because he dares to go into the technical details.
Mate I can't put into words how much I enjoy these. So glad you're back for this cycle
Awesome guys …. No studios, fancy setup or even any production ….
Just PURE GOLD QUALITY content… and an entertaining chat in the pub over a pint style
Super enjoyable…. MORE !!
As Rob and Tom alluded to what you are seeing is a large scale tow tank model. The instrumentation is consistent with that used in automotive, aeronautical and nautical testing. The pressure sensor positions on the horizontal foils are a hint that they expect to maintain full laminar flow but that the section is sensitive to minor imperfections. The stagger places each subsequent sensor outside of the turbulent wedge created by the sensor in front. To me this suggests a couple of things, the first being that they want/need to validate their cfd package so are they using a new cfd code? Maybe an adaptation of F1 cfd codes rather than commercial naval cfd codes? Additionally it could highlight that this precise section shape is a critical area that they wish to develop. Coming back to Robs point regarding the elliptical planform, while an elliptical pressure distribution is the target, this does not require an elliptical planform. Rob is however correct that for a given Re number the optimum shapes are unlikely to diverge too much. Much of the effort will be trading pure performance vs the handling qualities. Exciting times!
Just the best AC analysis. I learn as much each time as I don't understand, so my curve is upward.
Ta for this. The Spitfire wing is an interesting profile with several important features. A wide cord ratio beyond the midspan gives superior turn under load. Lots of room in the wing, and the slight elliptical offset forward allows better positioning of the main span. Not for nothing did its basic design remain throughout the war.
Great work boys, awesome seeing the band back together.
You and your friends do a great job of of explaining what we are seeing in the various bit of media released by the various teams, thanks and keep up the great work.
Fascinating discussion! I love the throwback to one of the greatest British victories in history ss INEOS literally incorporates the Spitfire at 09:34... 😀
Fascinating as always guys, can’t wait to see all the developments and your input, the only AC channel to watch. Andy UK
Thanks Mozzy - I’m starting to get excited about the cup now!
Thank you! Can't tell you how much I enjoy your videos.
Really interesting stuff as always guys, cheers
Awesome video guys!
I think you guys are spot on, it looks like validating the model is the focus. If you're confident in your simulator you can do wonders.
Great to see you back making videos again, keep up the great work 👍 👏
It's fun to be back, glad to have you along for the voyage!
I love the 3 mates on a bed looking at videos vibe!
Great to see the team back in action 💪💪💪
Loving these tech talks, and love you guys. Brilliant
Thanks guys - i's nice to have you all back and commenting about what we are seeing, trying to open it up a bit so we can see the challenges. It would be interesting to have the boys explain some of the maths and design constraints more precisely especially around the foils and the aero packages.
Great video guys! Looking forward to seeing more of these in depth discussions!
Agree on this being a platform in order to gain base knowledge from and then they can work towards implementing more sophisticated designs. Got to ensure the data is good data first and that leads to real development.
Fingers crossed Ineos have a few genius designs up their sleeves to come!
Great chat! Can't wait on the A/B testing on the jumper/sweater selection for this cycle.
Thank you for the interesting analysis that is pitched at a level where you don’t have to be a specialist engineer to appreciate
Really interesting video, Keep up the great content
It should be noted that even the very slightest (convex/compound) curvature to these flat hard chine sections will add tremendous stiffness in the local region and require less overall laminate thickness (weight) than that required for flat plates. Also the stress due to slapping washboard effect during crashes off the foils is reduced. This reduces/eliminates the tensile fatigue stresses in the (immoveable) hard corners. I'm a radius kind of engineer, and not just simple radii, but carefully shaped conic or otherwise tapered radii that distribute the stress according to the dominant loading. I have loved hydrofoils since I built a prototype set for my Nacra 5.2 back in 1985-90s. Have fun, play hard.
Great to have you back
Really like to hear your thoughts on the strategy that each team is taking. My theory is:
Ineos, LR, AM and ARBR are in a phase of gathering data to build tools that will develop the quickest boat.
ETNZ have developed these tools (simulation, AI technology) in previous cups that has been validated in the last cycle and the AC40. With most teams likely to close the performance gap as the rules have remained relatively the same.
I think ETNZ will look to seek gains by finding the best way to sail the boat with the least amount of tactical trade offs . Even thought ETNZ had a faster boat in the previous cup LR were able to expose aspects of the design through sailing strategy (quicker in tacks, sailing higher angles at the start). This may be reinforced by them saying they’ll do two boat testing in the AC40s.
Through this they will then have data sets on both the quickest design and the most strategically competitive boat in match racing situation that they will be able to find the best compromise.
Further to that ETNZ suggested they didn’t hold back on the design for the AC40, this is like there version 1 LEQ12 that they can test sailing techniques. Following that they will then be able to develop there actual LEQ12 with what they have learnt from the AC40.
Seems similar to the small test boats in the last cup where LR, AM and Ineos built theirs at the start where ETNZ released there’s near the end.
Interesting to see what happens. Love the videos, hopefully you keep them coming frequently.
Sailing strategy is an interesting area in my opinion when you compare it to games like chess or go where a man is incapable of beating a computer. Maybe the strategical play book should also be defined by AI? Wonder if anyone is investigating this
Really good discussion guys!
Flatpac AC boats! Reminds me of our Mirror kit Dad bought and we built together in 1972 :-) Mind you those flat panels will be quicker and easier to fix if (when) they get broken...
Good chat. So much detail.
Thanks, hopefully we can keep the level up through the Cup
👍🏽 good to be bck up nd running towards another AC - wouldn’t be the same without your analysis’! Keep em coming.
Enjoyed the discussion.
Dream YT weekend viewing at the extremes, Mozzy and the lads, Saturday, Leo and Tally Ho Sunday.🎉
I hope we see more of the three lads.
the sonar thing is call a dvl and the best of them in the best of conditions gaves a 50-70Hz speed signal
Great to have Mozzy back on this. What would be good is how they deal with all the data coming from the sensors. You can’t manually sort that. It will soon overwhelm you!
Thank you for this expert and interesting series. The INEOS foil design is interesting. It appears that the intersection of the foil, arm and bulb is very carefully arranged and shaped to avoid super-velocities and cavitation. Design to delay cavitation seems related to transonic aircraft design. Transonic aircraft generally use swept wings, so perhaps it is odd that INEOS is using a foil planform from a WWII fighter. According to the abstract of a 1970 paper published in the Journal of Hydronautics (and internet), "Hydrofoil Loading and Cavitation" by Peter Crimi, swept foils substantially delay cavitation onset. It appears that AC rules do not prohibit foil sweep as long as the foils are symmetric about the plane of the arm (WSP). Perhaps you can address the topic of foil sweep in a later episode. Thanks again for your efforts on the series!
love this
my first reaction to this wide boxy transom was that it looks just like a windsurf foil course board - what's surprised me is that we're yet to see anyone go for something similarly radical up front - I'd love to see a flying table of an AC75
I really do enjoy the discussions and thoughts about the boats and issues. I sometimes get a little frustrated! If you had started this vlog by highlighting Ben's comment that INEOS test boat was really a 'towing test rig' to validate the simulations and provide an engineering design platform then the rest of the discussion might of been directed as to if this was a good idea, and how INEOS might employ it versus the other teams approaches. Instead the conversation rather wandered around rather. It is not a criticism of the participants nor the comments made, but rather the 'editorial direction' and 'thread' which would have made an interesting vlog really fantastic. I do look forward to following more on the channel.
I can’t believe the America’s Cup haven’t hired you guys
The AC content on this channel is beyond comparison.
I was struggling with the terminology at about 17:00, it was coming thick and fast, and beyond the scope of my sailing knowledge! Great talk tho, loved the informal setting, socks optional, even. I'm surprised to see a flush deck tho, but maybe it doesn't reflect what they will use on the race boat, or even the AC40. These talks are so good it makes me want to see one every day..... It would be fun to see how well the gang could do if they found a wealthy benefactor to gift them an AC40!
Yes the gang is back 😊
They certainly are!
The boxy shape is also interesting since its probably cheaper to make and at the end of the life of the boat flat pieces are easier to reuse for something else :D
Look at those animations at 16:25! Mozzy giving the AC broadcast team a run for their money!
😄
the pitots look like 4 hole probes so will give yaw and pitch too
Thank god ur back, Ive missed your 3 ugly mugs from the last AC. Keep up the greaty work.
It looks like a competition to lower the deck to gain as much sail area as low as possible. The ultimate design is a paddle board hull with foils.
Interesting to see the move to elliptical foil shape rather than the high aspect “glider” style wing shape. I’d suggest it’s more about gathering data than performance and we may see another shape appear in the near future?
I wish there was a similar design channel for dinghy sailing. I know you’re into the RS boats but a behind the scenes discussion would be welcome.
Glad to see your comment. It seems that we surfers, skateborders, sailors, have all developed a keen insight into harnessing natures energy and improving our performance. I will be trying to get My bro baby H to join me in Barcelona 2023 or 2024. If you also plan to attend, maybe we can arrange something. Mitch Schaub ⛵️🇪🇸
If you told me I’d watch this waffling on for more than 20 minutes, I’d have laughed at you.🤭 However I Really enjoyed it and learnt a Lot! Thanks for sharing.😎👏🇦🇺
Best review ever. 😂
last time there was a max number of foils. do were have the same rules now? if not, then I agree best to just have the same foils on each side to validate sensors etc.
Guy's you are brilliant, I will follow you and in a personal note, could you also look/dissect the Moth latest and greatest (a-class...) as these are the breading grounds cheers. fonty
Ineos seems to be applying what they learned in TDF competition as well. Optimization as an incremental solution and as an integration problem.
Really enjoyed the discussion! I found the first comment from Rob the most intriguing. Do the rules allow teams to build a platform and mount the foil arm at the front to create the proper distance between the foils and the rudder and put full-size foils and rudders on the platform and test in that way a la ETNZ AC45 rudder gantry?
Wetted area a knot or two below takeoff speed is really important. I'm sure the Merc engineers learned that painfully last time around, but it doesn't really look like it on this mule. And with that flat bottom, the slamming loads on wave tops could be a problem.
There's a shot in the interview with Ben of it floating. The bustle appears to have enough volume to float the stern I think it was sitting about 6 or so inches with two staffers scrubbing the deck, so adding two crew members and the rig should put it just barely touching. Might still be a slapper though I agree.
Forget the tweaker, just get rid of the jib as it makes more drag when the speed is high. In 2010 I think the Oracle boat dropped the jib once and the commentator said the boat sails faster without the jib. It's all about speed, isn't it?
Have you got any more information on the i14 jib clewboard setup? Really interested in trying something similar
Why have a boom? Just use the hull structure and add more sail lowering the center of effort.
Hi Mozzy, thx for the info it's always good stuff you put out there. .I want to bring a topic to the floor. It's about savety. The man and women who will drive this boat or the AC40 are funerabble to a way and put it blunt they working in a deadtrap. If a collision occurs they have no where to go. I hinted the AC commission about this potential danger. The solution is in my view quit simple. Formule 1 has joined the party and they must build a monocock they prove to be save to there dirver. And they quit succeeded. So ti's in mine opion a great miss unless i'm wrong that in the rules of the next AC this part isn't ruled and mandated. How do you think about this and maybe do a topic.
GPS with RTK should give you pretty accurate position data, pitot tube will tell you speed through the water. Surely you would want both, wouldn't you?
Square edges are very useful if you want to shed water
Jump to 18:50 if you've come here from the Tow Msst Rules Controversy video
Is there a reason in the rules why we aren't seeing the nodule foil designs coming through like the Takuma Kujira foils? By all accounts the lift speed is lower for a lower surface area - potentially a faster foil can start in lighter winds
Tubercules are great if you anticipate operating at wildly varying angles of a attack and are focused on minimizing your turn radius. But for the America's cup the larger size, stability margins, and speeds of the boats mean they'll likely be racing in a relatively narrow range of AOA and are focused on turn rate rather than turn radius. That tends to push you away from high lift devices that increase your margins but also drag, and more towards things like thin laminar flow foils that work exceptionally well at a specific operating point and stall and buffet horribly elsewhere.
@@Dovorans spot on! Whale fins, which the takuma foils are influenced by, are operating in a very different flow regimes to the AC foils.
6:33 it's a Doppler velocity log not a 'sonar'
How are the foils raised and lowere? Is it by electric motors or done manually?
It's by a hydraulics, powered by battery. A chamber is pressurised from battery, the a button releases the movement, then the batter recharges the hydraulic pressure for the next movement
Where are the diffusers and side pods?
Good chat boys. Let me know if you're keeping the 40 at HISC, I'm happy to put in a stint on the grinders ;)
😁 we'll let you know!
How far are team nz ahead of the others if ineos is only at the stage they are validating there design tools , team nz has had this locked in and miles ahead of anyone from the last cup , and no doubt the computer running constantly from day 1 of winning the cup and setting the rules , cant see anyone catching the most innovative team in the cup and look forward to seeing the next generation that they produce which will look completely different to the other teams except maybe prada who now has a good hold on design tools from the last cup , team nz for the win all the way no doubt 😊😊
High end gps coupled with an imu can be very accurate. I doubt they are just throwing a consumer grade gps tracker on the boat.
You're correct. But I think the main problem is tide and they want to measure speed through water rather than over ground
Cost could be a factor in some of these early design choices.
The initial reaction is "well, that's a brick with a sheet of plywood attached; no aerodynamics here."
Then, after some study, the hydrodynamics are thought out, with wave propagation taken into consideration, where the gap between the keel and the rudder could end up adding quite a bit of flow and speed to the hull.
The outcome could be very interesting, especially with all of the in situ data gathering capabilities.
Thanks for a great video!
Normal service has been resumed!!
It's a water Cybertruck.
The kiwis boke there speed record on there first sale,BEAT THAT
Get yourselves on an AC40 and it would be 3 men in a boat updated.
Yo, this is amazing. Can you dumb it down a little bit and explain a little more what the things are ?
I love you and your boys, all the knowledge right there.
But I can’t keep up
What is a clue board?
Haha
Thanks mate, amazing videos
th-cam.com/video/mVFnnHGUIOs/w-d-xo.html How sail shape is adjusted.
This design has all the hallmarks of being a tool to refine correlation between the simulator and the test unit. Once correlation is established they can move on to actual development. Very F1
mmmm
It appears that Ineos is F1-struck and relies on a car manufacturer when they should be dealing with a plane maker. In particular, would they consider throwing away the jib, replacing it with an aircraft tiller, and having the underwater tiller minimalized and only used for low-speed maneuvers? It all seems like deja vous all over again.
You talk about GPS speed as being a lagging indicator, showing your average speed over the last second, but that is not correct. GPS speed is not derived as a difference in position over time, but directly from the Doppler effect on the frequency of signals received from each satellite. Speed derived this way is far more accurate than GPS position, and it is an instantaneous reading. The true problem of course is that a super accurate ground speed is not all that useful on a boat or aircraft, as it does not tell you the speed through a medium which is itself moving.
The problem I have with this foil technology is that it requires that there are no fish in the water. I think the first one of these boats that soms into a whale in a harbor will create a public reaction that could put an end to this design direction.
Emirates TNZ boat this time around has a striking resemblance to a whale...A beached whale.
great channel, what a bollocks excuse , just make the fastest boat , then make it faster, I agree, it looks pretty sticky to get up on foils, and that has cost races, do not like the hard chines, why do that?
Ben’s had two poor cups, primarily due to sub optimal design. Let’s hope he’s got the right people in the design team now.
My money is on Mercedes F1 input and expertise, if they don’t know they will be well schooled by Ben Ainslie and Co. The end result might just be the World Class we’ve all been dreaming off.
Forgive my single minded naivety, Stickiness, marginal conditions sailing means nothing in a series. It’s boat speed in isolation and ability to point in close proximity, that’s where all the big races were won in NZ.
Good to see Ineos not copying, but those chines are hard!
Hahaha the elliptical wing crap of the spitfire comes up again. In aviation we know it’s not beneficial!
Maybe in the water.. but I gues not!
Looks like a looser to us KIWIS
12:30 There's a lot of wishful thinking in this discussion. Let's see how it pans out.
Your kidding yourselves 😂🤣😂🤣😂
They look like a crab when your holding then with claws hanging I'm just not sure about foils I'd rather go back to traditional hulls and see who sails better
I think a lot of people feel the same. The technology I personally find fascinating.
At the 710 minute, you can see several osmosis like bulges, how many millions spent on this ?
I’m going to be honest.
I found this review quite brutal to watch, very boring, very negative and pessimistic.
This boat from what I can understand is a benchmark data boat, it’s basically a boat to benchmark the data. It’s not necessarily a guide to how they are going to go.
For me, this is going to be a game changer on data management, processes and systems. I think what you will see when the final boat will be radically different from what you see here.
Love the technical level of the discussions amongst sailors, just found the channel, nice work lads. Is there a network you work at?
It's a bit hard to have faith in ineos designs given how much of a dog their boats in the last two cups have been.