I'm an old HVAC &R tech, we use to use pressure transducers for commercial refrigeration control and monitoring. Check out the specs at a local refrigeration supplier they are usually very accurate.
Not even an hour into it and the crybabies who didn't even notice the characteristic of the early transducers untill it was pointed out to them are lining up with their hands out. Amazing.
Hose ID,length and location of pressure transducer affect peak compression numbers because the volume of the hose is added to the volume of the cylinder under compression that is why analog compression tester has check valve right at spark plug before hose.
I agree; the static and dynamic volume of the test fixture DEFINITELY a factor when trying to record accurate cylinder pressures. If you desire the most accurate readings of dynamic cylinder pressure, then the model would require the transducer to directly replace the spark plug. Of course, that's not practical, thus experiments with rigid tubing adapters and adding some MATH to the scope channel to correct for test fixture volume would be my next step. Cheers
I think that could be accounted for, the values you put in the pico software for V vs psi could be done in such a way that would compensate for the increased volume, it's a little time consuming but worth it.
yeah, check valve at the cylinder end and cranking enough revolutions to fill the hose is how you get accurate readings. there will never be exactly accurate reading using a transducer without check valve, but that defeats being able to see the waveform. maybe have two hoses, one with check valve at end and one without. one is for viewing waveform and one for more accurate peak compression test. using smaller diameter solid tubing and keeping it very short would help somewhat, but that's just not practical.
Hello Ivan, I work for a dutch company where we have our own scope and software. I think we use the same 45 bar sensor you use in youre pressure transducer kit. The biggest downside of this sensor is its refreshing rate. It's at 1 ms. The one pico is using is 100 micro sec. That's why you see this rimples at the exhaust plateau. We are now looking for a new sensor which also has a refresh rate of 100 micro sec. It makes the waveform far more accurately especially for checking cam timing.
I understand the desire for 100% accuracy, however, consistency when testing and comparing is really what you want for most in cylinder testing. The ripples in the exhaust is turbulence . Important to see ? Not sure how critical that would be.
Great to see you stand by your products and that you managed to get a better pressure transducer. Thinking of the ripple, it seems to me that it has to do with the damping factor and frequency response - many transducers are rated for slowly changing pressures, which is not the case in a running engine. If you add to that the effect of the flexible pressure tube, there may be some small artifacts, that don't hinder the main measurement. Anyway, a very good product just got better :-)
We had some clients sourcing high-performance parts from Italy. Relatively expensive but only viable options in those cases. We see Italian quality manifested in exotic cars and clothing but Italy also some serious industrial engineering and production.
Ivan, two more thoughts. 1) I hope PICO doesn't get mad at you for undercutting their price. 2) Thanks for sharing your waveforms. I was just thinking this morning how nice it would be to have some new waveforms to review since my Saturday outside projects have been delayed by weather. :)
Hey Ivan im a big fan of your channel, been a subscriber for a while, ive been getting pretty good at finding out of time engines with just a scope measuring crank angle teeth space, i would like to try my hand at using in cylender preesure waveforms for more acurate info, only one problem, all i have is a verus right now, has any of your customers used the presure transduser on a verus and did they like it? Thanks Jon
As a owner of a generation 1 kit, I noticed this drift last week on an in-cylinder test. For setting the correct 0psi reference would you suggest simply putting a horizontal cursor at where the exhaust plateau begins after the waveform stabilizes? That was my spur of the moment correction to get accurate measurements.
I looked back at my waveform library, and the small drift was always there. Didn't even notice it since it didn't affect the performance or results in any way :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yes... but why? I posted a separate comment in an attempt to infect your mind with dissatisfaction until you get to the bottom of it :-).
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I wonder if it is like that by design? It also may be there because of how it is manufactured, and slight differences would be present. I have found that most sensor type of units will show a slight difference in readings based on manufacturer of the part.
Very good video. And the comparison with the pico.You clear me, some things I was wondering . what about, if you add a fully metallic pipe ,instead the rubber compression hose?It will be very handy(maybe even more accurate), especially for the inline engines (and for the most cylinders of a V engines, W engines etc). Ps. Should I have to wait for the update version so I can get it free😂?
Hi, I have had the same problem, so I would like from you the web site of Italian pressure transducer that you show in this video. Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Hey Ivan still resisting the Pico 7 Software? I know you cant set the custom ranges up on the 7 like you can the 6. Perhaps a video on what else you dont like about 7?
My advice would be to drop the 1/4" fittings and install 1/8" Foster Series 2 connections (which is what Pico and ATS use) and use either the Pico or ATS hoses. Shorter and smaller diameter create less volume and has less impact on the waveform capture. A hose that is too long and/or soft will not only affect peak psi readings, but it makes the waveform "lazy" and makes accurate diagnosis impossible. Peak compression takes longer and decompression takes longer, so it affects the waveform left to right, not just up and down. Valve events, ignition events, injector events, etc., can not be accurately determined, and the additional volume and slower rate of change can hide events that are momentary just as if you had the capture filter adjusted wrong. My 2 cents
Time delay with a slightly longer hose is not significant enough to affect diagnostics. Can easily quantify that on a scope with a second channel triggered from the CKP sensor to see if the TDC peak is retarded with a longer hose :)
Ivan: Did you come to any conclusions as to why the original pressure transducer "drifts"? Is it temperature dependent? Does it have some mechanical "memory" -- that is some mechanical deformation, in response to the high pressure pulses, that it retains for some period of time? Does it have a chamber on the back side of the diaphragm that some high-pressure gas is leaking into (or is the back side open to atmosphere)? It seems like there's a variety of possible phenomena at work that would keep a mechanical engineer awake until investigated and solved :-). Superficially, pressure transducers are pretty simple things, so this should be discoverable!
The engineer in me was asking this question. Maybe the internal diaphragm has a short-term memory of quick pulses? And why is the small drift in the negative direction and not the positive direction? I can send you one for testing if you like :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes, it's the negativeness of the somehow imparted offset that bears some explaining! You are absolutely welcome to send me one to take a look at. I'll email to discuss details.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics do these have diaphragms? I belive the ATS transducers are like the wps absolute. I always wondered what’s inside these lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics: "Response time" is one characteristic that is usually considered when specifying a transducer. The faster your pressures build, the quicker the transducer must sample. At 700 RPM, peak pressure builds in ≲ 10ms (≲ 2.5ms at 3000 RPM, etc.). Transducers will begin to attenuate output signal and lose accuracy as rate of input variation approaches or exceeds sampling rate of transducer. Compare datasheets and you'll see that cost of transducers increase significantly as sampling rate increases. Budget transducers usually have very restrictive response times and filtering. Love your work 👍.
Is a "pressure transducer kit" basically the same thing as a "pressure transducer"? Or is the kit just a supplement to the transducer that could not operate on it's own?
Minus 4 or 5 PSI drift? It WILL affect incylinder diagnostics. Backpressure of more than 3 PSI is a clear indicator of restriction in the Cats. ...No thanks
These appear to be automotive-specific plugs, in the Delphi/Packard/Aptiv (formerly Delphi) product ranges. I can't post links here on YT, but do an image search using those brand names, plus "three-way plug". Aptiv 12078090 looks close. But you may just want to get one or two connectors with pigtail attached, so "3-wire sensor cable" or similar on Amazon might get there. And it may then turn out that just ordering a cheap pressure sensor on Amazon that comes with a pigtail with the right connector is cheaper.
@T.J. Kong I don't think that would work out, each transducer gives different voltages at different pressures, ivans file would work for his specific transducer, you would have to do it manually, I'm ready to give instructions if anyone needs it as i have done mine a while ago :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics i want to give you some info about my experience with a transducer i bought from SSI and its getting deleted in like 30 sec
WELL ED,you obviously don't understand small independent economics.IVAN spent His money and took the chance that people could use an ALTERNATIVE to the 1300 dollar PRO kit.IF you now see that IVAN was HONEST enough to fully disclose an OPPORTUNITY to improve the product{even though,what he is TEACHING is the WAVE FORM DIFFERENCES not the exactness of the transducer}where one reads 0 to the others -4 psi.SO NOW YOU WAN A FREE UNIT>???WTF just like you said.I HOPE you DON'T treat your CUSTOMERS -that way if you have ANY. Please take into account that the NEW ECONOMY calls for you spending MORE of your hard earned money for MILK,butter ,eggs,tires,battery's and GASOLINE.haha
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Great update! Good to see more improvements over time and you stand by your products! Great to see!
I'm an old HVAC &R tech, we use to use pressure transducers for commercial refrigeration control and monitoring. Check out the specs at a local refrigeration supplier they are usually very accurate.
Awesome Ivan!
A man who stands behind his products.
It amazes me that these little sensors are so expensive, but .. quality comes at a price!
I used to maintain hospital autoclaves.
I can't believe how cheap they are... 😁😁😁
This looks like a fascinating area of diagnostics.
Not even an hour into it and the crybabies who didn't even notice the characteristic of the early transducers untill it was pointed out to them are lining up with their hands out. Amazing.
Hose ID,length and location of pressure transducer affect peak compression numbers because the volume of the hose is added to the volume of the cylinder under compression that is why analog compression tester has check valve right at spark plug before hose.
Location of transducer should be as close to the source as possible. Hose length and rigidity will introduce hysteresis
Also quick connect can leak affecting reading
I agree; the static and dynamic volume of the test fixture DEFINITELY a factor when trying to record accurate cylinder pressures. If you desire the most accurate readings of dynamic cylinder pressure, then the model would require the transducer to directly replace the spark plug. Of course, that's not practical, thus experiments with rigid tubing adapters and adding some MATH to the scope channel to correct for test fixture volume would be my next step. Cheers
I think that could be accounted for, the values you put in the pico software for V vs psi could be done in such a way that would compensate for the increased volume, it's a little time consuming but worth it.
yeah, check valve at the cylinder end and cranking enough revolutions to fill the hose is how you get accurate readings. there will never be exactly accurate reading using a transducer without check valve, but that defeats being able to see the waveform.
maybe have two hoses, one with check valve at end and one without. one is for viewing waveform and one for more accurate peak compression test.
using smaller diameter solid tubing and keeping it very short would help somewhat, but that's just not practical.
That's cool . Ivan's product development team ! good looking out !
Welcome to today's economy....glad that you found a solution/replacement head.
Hello Ivan, I work for a dutch company where we have our own scope and software. I think we use the same 45 bar sensor you use in youre pressure transducer kit. The biggest downside of this sensor is its refreshing rate. It's at 1 ms. The one pico is using is 100 micro sec. That's why you see this rimples at the exhaust plateau. We are now looking for a new sensor which also has a refresh rate of 100 micro sec. It makes the waveform far more accurately especially for checking cam timing.
What is the name of the scope?
@@Lambros_Stefaneas GMTO scope, scope is made by a company called tiepie, we create the software to make it suitable for the automotive sector
@@spin1275gt I have seen Dan to use it .Any good this scope?
@@Lambros_Stefaneas the specs of the scope are better than one from pico. Much clearer waveforms with less noise.
@@spin1275gt How much cost the scope?
This kind of response to customer feedback can only yield good things for you. Thanks Ivan!
I understand the desire for 100% accuracy, however, consistency when testing and comparing is really what you want for most in cylinder testing.
The ripples in the exhaust is turbulence . Important to see ?
Not sure how critical that would be.
Glad I got my kit when I did!! It still works great!
Awesome video. The new kit works great thanks again for the customer service.
Close enough for finding the problem and much chipper than pico and have money left for a pizza thanks Ivan
Great to see you stand by your products and that you managed to get a better pressure transducer. Thinking of the ripple, it seems to me that it has to do with the damping factor and frequency response - many transducers are rated for slowly changing pressures, which is not the case in a running engine. If you add to that the effect of the flexible pressure tube, there may be some small artifacts, that don't hinder the main measurement. Anyway, a very good product just got better :-)
We had some clients sourcing high-performance parts from Italy. Relatively expensive but only viable options in those cases. We see Italian quality manifested in exotic cars and clothing but Italy also some serious industrial engineering and production.
Thank you for the update.
Attach both sensors to the hose at the same time and check them against a known good gauge.
Thanks for the update! Good information on testing psi and vacuum.
Never mind the kit. How do I get a Pine Hollow Diagnostic T shirt?!
Great to see an innovator like yourself branch into other areas that are cost effective over other options. Great work!
Awesome
Cool stuff Ivan!
Doc Brown called and wants to know when you can get working on a new version of his flux capacitor.😁👍🇨🇦
Ivan, wishing you good luck on your product deployment. I think it's exciting to see how the market is responding to your efforts. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan, two more thoughts. 1) I hope PICO doesn't get mad at you for undercutting their price. 2) Thanks for sharing your waveforms. I was just thinking this morning how nice it would be to have some new waveforms to review since my Saturday outside projects have been delayed by weather. :)
Hey Ivan im a big fan of your channel, been a subscriber for a while, ive been getting pretty good at finding out of time engines with just a scope measuring crank angle teeth space, i would like to try my hand at using in cylender preesure waveforms for more acurate info, only one problem, all i have is a verus right now, has any of your customers used the presure transduser on a verus and did they like it? Thanks Jon
As a owner of a generation 1 kit, I noticed this drift last week on an in-cylinder test. For setting the correct 0psi reference would you suggest simply putting a horizontal cursor at where the exhaust plateau begins after the waveform stabilizes? That was my spur of the moment correction to get accurate measurements.
Good to know that you stand by your product. The question is did it develop the drift after a while or did it have it from the jump?
I looked back at my waveform library, and the small drift was always there. Didn't even notice it since it didn't affect the performance or results in any way :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yes... but why? I posted a separate comment in an attempt to infect your mind with dissatisfaction until you get to the bottom of it :-).
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
I wonder if it is like that by design? It also may be there because of how it is manufactured, and slight differences would be present. I have found that most sensor type of units will show a slight difference in readings based on manufacturer of the part.
Very good video. And the comparison with the pico.You clear me, some things I was wondering .
what about, if you add a fully metallic pipe ,instead the rubber compression hose?It will be very handy(maybe even more accurate), especially for the inline engines (and for the most cylinders of a V engines, W engines etc).
Ps. Should I have to wait for the update version so I can get it free😂?
nice upgrade my friend. BTW those items in private email are in my car. no winners for me though.
Amanda said the Kentucky Derby race was a nail biter this time around haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I just wish I had money on 21. Guy beside bet $300 on him to win! Cha Ching!
Good afternoon!
How is your bum for cracking walnuts
It's not internally temperature compensated which are more expensive.
Hi, I have had the same problem, so I would like from you the web site of Italian pressure transducer that you show in this video. Thanks, I really appreciate it.
If you wanted to upgrade to the new 667 transducer too, is that one also $125? Thanks.
Hey Ivan still resisting the Pico 7 Software? I know you cant set the custom ranges up on the 7 like you can the 6. Perhaps a video on what else you dont like about 7?
I don’t like 7 either
Just a question: did you disconnect fuel injector on cylinder #1?
Yes sir :)
This should be really interesting on a turbo charged diesel.
Lol how big of a sensor would I need for a Dyno pull? Lol
My advice would be to drop the 1/4" fittings and install 1/8" Foster Series 2 connections (which is what Pico and ATS use) and use either the Pico or ATS hoses. Shorter and smaller diameter create less volume and has less impact on the waveform capture. A hose that is too long and/or soft will not only affect peak psi readings, but it makes the waveform "lazy" and makes accurate diagnosis impossible. Peak compression takes longer and decompression takes longer, so it affects the waveform left to right, not just up and down. Valve events, ignition events, injector events, etc., can not be accurately determined, and the additional volume and slower rate of change can hide events that are momentary just as if you had the capture filter adjusted wrong. My 2 cents
Time delay with a slightly longer hose is not significant enough to affect diagnostics. Can easily quantify that on a scope with a second channel triggered from the CKP sensor to see if the TDC peak is retarded with a longer hose :)
Ivan: Did you come to any conclusions as to why the original pressure transducer "drifts"? Is it temperature dependent? Does it have some mechanical "memory" -- that is some mechanical deformation, in response to the high pressure pulses, that it retains for some period of time? Does it have a chamber on the back side of the diaphragm that some high-pressure gas is leaking into (or is the back side open to atmosphere)? It seems like there's a variety of possible phenomena at work that would keep a mechanical engineer awake until investigated and solved :-). Superficially, pressure transducers are pretty simple things, so this should be discoverable!
The engineer in me was asking this question. Maybe the internal diaphragm has a short-term memory of quick pulses? And why is the small drift in the negative direction and not the positive direction? I can send you one for testing if you like :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes, it's the negativeness of the somehow imparted offset that bears some explaining! You are absolutely welcome to send me one to take a look at. I'll email to discuss details.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics do these have diaphragms? I belive the ATS transducers are like the wps absolute. I always wondered what’s inside these lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics: "Response time" is one characteristic that is usually considered when specifying a transducer. The faster your pressures build, the quicker the transducer must sample. At 700 RPM, peak pressure builds in ≲ 10ms (≲ 2.5ms at 3000 RPM, etc.). Transducers will begin to attenuate output signal and lose accuracy as rate of input variation approaches or exceeds sampling rate of transducer. Compare datasheets and you'll see that cost of transducers increase significantly as sampling rate increases. Budget transducers usually have very restrictive response times and filtering. Love your work 👍.
@@hightttech And,how much response time and filtering has to be,to be ok, for an engine ?
Is a "pressure transducer kit" basically the same thing as a "pressure transducer"? Or is the kit just a supplement to the transducer that could not operate on it's own?
See website for details
Minus 4 or 5 PSI drift? It WILL affect incylinder diagnostics. Backpressure of more than 3 PSI is a clear indicator of restriction in the Cats. ...No thanks
Does this come with instructions. What it takes to hook to the computer and software it needs
Just watch the tutorial video in the playlist :)
ATS Elite Four CH. or Pico 2245a
Zetec engine!
Paul (in MA)
I have a couple of transducers. What's the name of the female plug that's used on them?
I've tried searching the web.
These appear to be automotive-specific plugs, in the Delphi/Packard/Aptiv (formerly Delphi) product ranges. I can't post links here on YT, but do an image search using those brand names, plus "three-way plug". Aptiv 12078090 looks close. But you may just want to get one or two connectors with pigtail attached, so "3-wire sensor cable" or similar on Amazon might get there. And it may then turn out that just ordering a cheap pressure sensor on Amazon that comes with a pigtail with the right connector is cheaper.
@@Graham_Wideman much appreciated!
Packard Connector
@@keithanderson7007 thank you!
What software for the laptop?
PICO
@T.J. Kong I don't think that would work out, each transducer gives different voltages at different pressures, ivans file would work for his specific transducer, you would have to do it manually, I'm ready to give instructions if anyone needs it as i have done mine a while ago :)
Where can I order it?
www.pinehollowdiagnostics.com/new-phad-pressure-transducer.html
Here you can order it through here.
Thank you.
@@jaimefregoso8196 you're welcome! Have Great day!
ALL LINKS IN THE DESCRIPTION!
my comments get deleted for no reason :(
I can see this one!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'm not blaming you for it ivan, it's pretty weird
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics i want to give you some info about my experience with a transducer i bought from SSI and its getting deleted in like 30 sec
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics i would repost it and hopefully this time it would stay :)
And it's deleted again :( , you know what, i would email it to you :)
:(
Does the kit work EV vehicles and ebikes?
Enjoy ICE vehicles while you can. I'm looking forward to the end of them.
ICE vehicles will be around for a LONG time. You think everyone is gonna own nothing but e garbage in the next 10 years your nuts
Why are you here, then??
Shouldn't you be sniffing dogecoin?
Faulty transducers should be replaced FREE OF CHARGE! $125?? WTF ?? 🤦♂️
WELL ED,you obviously don't understand small independent economics.IVAN spent His money and took the chance that people could use an ALTERNATIVE to the 1300 dollar PRO kit.IF you now see that IVAN was HONEST enough to fully disclose an OPPORTUNITY to improve the product{even though,what he is TEACHING is the WAVE FORM DIFFERENCES not the exactness of the transducer}where one reads 0 to the others -4 psi.SO NOW YOU WAN A FREE UNIT>???WTF just like you said.I HOPE you DON'T treat your CUSTOMERS -that way if you have ANY. Please take into account that the NEW ECONOMY calls for you spending MORE of your hard earned money for MILK,butter ,eggs,tires,battery's and GASOLINE.haha
Haha that's like saying you want a free car free of charge because the next model version is improved... how does that make sense?
Depends on what one considers "faulty". Not sure a consistent 5 psi drift really affect the diagnostic approach.
That was hardh...
@T.J. Kong Small drift occurs only during pressure pulses.