Second Sunrise did give us one of the greatest moments of MtG coverage ever...Brian Kibler setting a piece of paper with f6 written on it on the table and then literally walking away from the table to do something else while his opponent comboed off for the next several minutes...absolute legend right there 😂
I remember watching a guy that wrote “F6” on a paper and held it up to the camera while someone was doing some combo, probably eggs. But he never left the table
@@klutzedufus it was f6. One of the function keys on a computer keyboard, and those used to have functionality on mtgo. F6 was "pass priority until my turn". So when Kibler was bored by watching his opponent go off with Eggs, he scribbled "F6" on a piece of paper, put it down on his board and went to do more exiting things.
It's funny with Demonic Consultation, because the same sort of thing happened in Yugioh regarding Pot of Desires. Desires says "Banish the top 10 cards of your deck face-down: Draw 2", and there's still people that are scared to run it because "what if they banish all the cards they need", but the math works that it's way more useful to have this card, since the games are fast and having a 6 card opening hand is way stronger than 5 (7 vs 6 for if you're going 2nd). Decks that do run garnets (1 ofs you don't want to draw but are engine requirements), naturally can't run this card, but any deck that runs 3 ofs for all its engine and has some redundancy, should because the card advantage is so strong, even if it does cut you off some resources.
I don't understand the comment about Planeswalkers being limited to pluses and minuses after WAR. Quintorius Kand in LCI literally has a triggered ability. Kaya in MKM also has a triggered ability. Ashiok in WOE has a static ability that applies a replacement effect on paying life. It's just simply not true what Jamin said.
After MOM they're down to one planeswalker per Standard-legal set now, but each one of them so far has had a static ability. And on the understandability scale, they're not doing too hot... Ashiok, Wicked Manipulator seems to cause a ton of people to be confused about the rules, and Kaya, Spirits' Justice is almost incomprehensible.
Only two planeswalkers in Standard have static abilities your opponent needs to remember, ONE Kaya (Hexproof) and The Eternal Wanderer (can't be attacked by more than one creature), both of which only serve to protect themselves. There are a fair few triggered abilities, and a few other statics like Tyvar or Wrenn and Realmbreaker which give more options to their controller, but nothing like the WAR statics which had tons of one-sided "gotcha" prison effects your opponent could run into by mistake. Between Karn, Narset, T3feri, Dovin, Ashiok, Tamiyo, The Wanderer, Teyo, and Tibalt, there were as many planeswalkers with that sort of design in WAR alone as have been printed in the nearly five years worth of new sets since.
@@Metallicity There fact that there were in that one set 1/3 the number of new planeswalkers that have been released in the years since that set, and 1/4 the planeswalkers released before that set is probably a big part of why, they were stuffing so many walkers into a single set it's hard to make them feel impactful and unique without digging into some weird design spaces. It was a mistake of course and they're overcorrecting now
@@AaronRotenbergRight? It'd be a good point if it was true, but most planeswalkers since WAR have had either a static ability, or some other sort of ability above the loyalty ones (even if it's an alternate/additional casting cost, like the compleated walkers).
@@Metallicity4:14 Except his point wasn't about effects the opponent needs to care about. That's a strawmen here, or moving the goalposts at best. He very specifically said that planeswalkers only have loyalty abilities again now, leaving the other effects to other permanents...except that's not true.
@@therealax6 Doesn't count for what? Mycosynth Lattice was here as a card that got better when Karn, the Great Creator was released 15 years later, so why wouldn't Thassa's Oracle count for the card that made Demonic Consultation better when it came out in Theros Beyond Death exactly two sets after War of the Spark (and 25 years after the Consultation)?
@@ReyosBlackwood Because the story they told about when Demonic Consultation began to be considered good predates Thassa's Oracle by over a decade. By the time Thassa's Oracle was released, Demonic Consultation was long known to be a good card.
I would add Liquid Metal Coating to this list. Typically not a great card but once you consider all the cheap mana cost cards that destroy artifacts, it becomes a powerful maneuver. I've won many games just because my opponent's gets fed up and scoop
Love these interesting types of videos, fantastic. Also saw you guys on Magic the Noah, was hilarious how kind you were to each other, normally he's expecting people to gang up on the winner and be petty about past minor slights etc. Conversely, you all tied at 0 points so who's to say what's better.
Amulet of Vigor used to be a bulk rare. I built around it with a Standard 5 color charm deck that ran all of the Shards of Alara tap lands, alongside all of the alara charms and some planeswalkers. The deck was cool, but definitely only worked due to the Amulet. I thought I had mined the maximum value out of a junk rare, so I put the cards away, satisfied that I had given the card it's due. Imagine my surprise when I return to the game 5 years later, and it's a $8 card, and then $25+ just a few years after that. Amulet titan is such a force in Modern that the deck has seen half a dozen cards banned from it (although, not always exclusively because of Amulet Titan itself, it's just a deck that is good at using any powerful expensive wincon in the format). Definitely one that's worth mentioning in my book.
Long before karn in kitchen tabletop I would run mycosynth lattice, mirari's wake for the anthem (obviously double mana helped, but it wasn't the combo) and March of the machines, suddenly everyone else's lands are 0/0 Artifact creatures...
Demonic Consultation did get better just by people realizing it's still better to risk losing with it than to need an out and have no chance of getting it, sure, but where it really shines is once lab maniac and Thoracle style cards started to come out. Naming a card that's not even in your deck while the thassa's oracle trigger is on stack may be more of a commander play than any other format, but it does work really well.
I always loved Mycosynth Lattice with March of the Machines..... kill everyone's land.... Had a deck with gilded lotus and pemmin's aura for infinite mana, with Memnarch to take everyone's things. Fun times back when Mirrodin was around.
On the Karn/Lattice lock. There was a funny screenshot floating around where someone had reversed the lock by casting CoCo in response and putting in a Collector Ouphe.
Hey guys! Loved the video! Thanks for the great content! An idea for you all is maybe the mirror of this video? "5 Cards that COULD break the game" - Basically cards that are simply untested [due to lack of support or etc]
For starters a card that is close [in commander] to being a recognizable card given the value artifacts hold is: Chief Engineer. The ability is seen as good but with a little more pay off [like the Jeskai Angel] I see the Vedalken being a household name.
The fact that Lion's Eye Diamond was never mentioned seems like revisionist history. The card was a bulk rare that saw little to no play up and until Infernal Tutor was printed. It was designed as a bad black lotus, and was seen as a bad black lotus for a long time. It was basically seen as the equivalent of One With Nothing. An effect so odd, and yet it must be powerful somehow, and it never found a home, that is until Infernal Tutor was printed and eternal formats realized that they could use LED to pay for the thing that the tutor got and could discard their hand before the spell was resolved. And now, at this point, people realize how powerful the card is outside of infernal tutor shenanigans and it has maintained a $500+ cost as a result.
"outside of infernal tutor shenanigans" is a lie, the card is only used in storm decks with Demonic Tutor (or equivalent), dredge decks where discarding the hand for free is the main point, and combo decks like Doomsday where 3 mana is 3 mana, since the important card is on the top of the deck, and a cantrip is on the stack.
@@LibertyMonk i think you misread what I typed. I said that it is seeing play outside of infernal tutor decks. It was originally played in TES in legacy because of the infernal tutor interaction where you could setup 1 or 2 LEDs on your combo turn, do a bunch of cantripping, cast a dark or cabal ritual and then with everything floating, cracks the LEDs with infernal tutor on the stack, get your tendrils and win. Now, it is played outside of that deck as people have seen its power in TES decks. We are talking around 20 or so years ago now in a game that is over 30. But for the first decade of magic's history, LED was seen as utter garbage that you wouldn't even clean your butt with.
@@LibertyMonkBefore Infernal Tutor, nobody saw value in the card. Now, it is a staple of everything you listed, plus Bomberman and a few other combo decks. LED is insanely powerful as a result of players realizing how to negate the downside or turn it into an advantage.
Tarmogoyf was a $1 card for a long time when Future Sight was released and then skyrocketed for obvious reasons when Tribal and Plainswalkers were released and became so popular
@@MrPiotrVfalse, the card was $3 before release (pre-sales and pre release), only jumped to the $10-20 range "immediately" and took a several months to climb up to "super expensive". You're right that it wasn't "$1 for a long time," but there is a story about someone offering to buy every goyf available at an event for a high price, which a week later turned out to be a steal.
The lantern of insight deck reminds me of the Mystic Mine deck from Yugioh. Essentially, they would play a permanent called "Mystic Mine" that locked both players out of creature abilities and then play a permanent called "Goddess of Skuld's Revenge" that would let you look at the top 3 cards of you opponent's deck and place them back in any order. With these 2 cards, you can prevent your opponent from using creature abilities to remove the "Mystic Mine" while also preventing them from drawing into any non-creature outs due to stacking their draws with "Goddess Skuld's Oracle".
Technically it wasn't "bad", but Oath of Druids was significantly less consistent/useful before Forbidden Orchard. Tarmagoyf was considered almost unplayable on release and was a bulk-rare for a few years. Same with Stoneforge Mystic which was "just O-K" until Sword of Feast and Famine and later Batterskull. If we're counting very-short-term "considered bad", Psychatog was a proxy until folks realized they'd rather have it than the card it was subbing for. You could pick up a Force of Will for a few cents when it came out because losing a card was considered too high a cost to be playable at first.
I made an EDH Group Hug Deck that used Mycosynth Lattice to do opposite...It gives lots of mana, card draw, land draw, lands work no matter mana, and lands count for more mana (mana flare + mirrorworks is fun)... It is an Enabler Group Hug deck. I love it. Usually end the game by giving everyone 20 cards at once plus infinite handsize...and others just do their thing.
(I'm assuming there's an errata, but I'll say this anyway) With the phrasing of Second Sunrise, it should bypass graveyard exiles. It says "Each player returns to play all (X) that were put into his or her graveyard from play this turn." It doesn't say it returns from the graveyard, it says returns to play. So even if you exile them from the graveyard, they still went there from play this turn, so they should come back. If that wasn't errata'd, then this card would definitely be in OP territory.
I enjoy that we've now entered the Cardmarket Extended Universe where older videos can get clipped into the new videos for additional context / for the lols
Early into me playing magic, before EDH got big when my friends and I just played 60 card kitchen table, I came up with the lantern of insight deck on my own. I didn't know anything about competitive magic at the time and I don't think the deck had been played competitively yet anyway. I didn't get mine to work, probably because I wasn't good enough at the game yet to know how to effectively control the top card of my opponent's deck in different situations. I felt really validated a few years later when I heard the same idea using lantern and codex shredder had made a pro tour.
I recognized how good Death's Shadow could be in Standard. I came up with a surprisingly effective list. But I was super-paranoid about the burn matchup, so I made sure I was prepared to sideboard against it.
I think brewers are underrated and often it takes 2-4 iterations for a deck to get good. I remember hearing the Lantern Control players saying that they worked on the deck for over 2 years before it became playable.
There's also Flame Fusillade that ended up being a creating a combo deck - when Time Vault got its next errata to basically say "Skip a turn: Untap Time Vault", turning it into a two-card infinite damage combo.
When the card first blew up, it was because of a combo on MtGO of Phyrexian Unlife and . . . I don't remember the other card anymore, but it did get your life _deep_ in the negative before using Fling or Rite of Consumption to yeet a gigantic Death's Shadow at the opponent. The rules were actually changed to state that negative life totals were considered to be 0 for effects like Death's Shadow as a result of someone yeeting a 50/50 at their opponent.
Manabond was like that. It was mostly because there weren't a lot of great lands to bring back, even when dredge was introduced. But eventually it just became a thing you could do.
6:20 This is super Interesting, because this is the exact reason I don’t use stitchers supplier in my yawgmoth edh deck. it has a huge graveyard subtheme but only for creatures and nothing hurts me more than feeling like I’m not in control of my gameplan when I accidentally mill one of my mass recursion spells or a super synergistic piece that I can’t access anymore
I might be a bit off on some of these as they were before my time, but: Lion's Eye diamond was bad until infernal tutor. Dark depths was bad until vampire hexmage. Nourishing Shoal was bad until Grisebrand. I guess there are also a ton of halves of a+b combos that were bad until they got another combo piece printed (chain of smog, sword of the meek, grindstone, etc)
Mycosynth Lattice/darksteel forge was a combo used in EDH pretty much right away. Add in a Nevinyrral's disk and you wipe out your opponents' everything while your stuff is indestructible.
Huh, I figured Lion's Eye Diamond and then also Necropotence would have made this list. When those cards came out they were trash. I remember throwing LEDs away with other cards cause it wasn't even $0.75 and we just tossed it out at the end of a day.
My first thought is how we mentioned the play pattern of the eggs deck without the immortal kibler F6 . 2nd I'm surprised Lion's Eye Diamond didn't show up here
I'm surprised no one mentioned Tarmogoyf. A card that was a bulk rare at first, but then became THE MOST powerful creature in Modern for over a decade.
I was active in the forum where the Lantern thread started. The thread exploded pretty quickly and became the most popular thread in the Modern sub-forum almost immediately. I remember being almost dumbfounded by the fact that so many people got interested in such a stupid idea and stuck with it for so long. It was such a weird experience eventually being proven wrong to *that* extend and I haven't experienced anything remotely close to this ever since. Of course after the deck won its first tournament the creator of the original thread went to the Legacy sub-forum and tried to convince people there that a Legacy version of the deck he was working on would soon take over that format as well. None of the other Legacy players took him seriously that time and I guess the nay-sayers won that particular round.
Lantern Control is every true control players wet dream. I must say, nothing is more enjoyable than an ensnaring bridge, a bunch of pithing needles, codex shredders, and bojuka bogs to deal with graveyard decks. And in the mirror match, Stony Silence, and Altar of the Brood.
I didn’t play many tournaments but I took a burn deck into a tournament and lost to an eggs deck and that was actually one of the reasons why I didn’t play in many tournaments. It was not so much the fact that it was a consistent combo that was faster than my burn deck. It was the fact that it could fizzle at any time and I just had to sit there and watch and hope for the combo to fizzle which had a low chance of happening. It was a very very unfun deck to have around. And I was very happy when it was banned.
The number 1 spot should absolutely go to Balustrade Spy/Undercity Informer, two cards that at first glance look like pack filler but in the right deck literally win you the game on the spot the moment you use their ability.
I actually watched the vid of Cifka winning the pro tour with eggs, and it was great. Not necessarily the gameplay itself, but he was so freaking elated to win - it was a great moment for Magic IMO.
I made a deck arround demonic consultation back when it came out. PPl laughed at me a lot. I also won a lot. Cause as it turns out. Drawing into your combo even if it is the last card you draw is game winning,
The best part of all these cards is just the joy of unleashing a brand new rogue deck that no one's ready for, and leaving them asking how they just lost to a pile of bulk rares.
i think at n.1 there should be tabernacle at pendrell vale. When legends came out, and for several time it was worth 50 cents. people taking it out from a booster pack was like "why am i so unlucky?"
I would love a video, where everybody can design a magic card with no limitations and you vote, which would be the best one. Like 0 mana instant: you win the game.
They write all prices using the German convention for numbers, which uses commas for decimal places and periods for thousands separators. (Many European languages do it this way - English is the rare exception.)
HARD disagree with Lattice, in itself it is still a "bad" card, it just happens to combo with a broken card. Otherwise I remember looking at the Death's Shadow in my binder for years and thinking "Man this is a cool card, I'm sure a deck that uses it would be so cool". And yeah, love that deck !
I played Mycosynth Lattice in standard with March of the Machines as a combodeck. The Combo kills all lands and lets me win with some manarocks afterwards. :)
There was a stretch after MH2 came out that Grief cost a few dollars and I heard frequently that the Scam deck was called that because you were scamming yourself out of your entry fee by registering it.
Ohhh yeah eggs deck, i remember when i tried playing it and when i decided to finally throw the combo my draws would be like "land, land, land, land, land, land, land, land, land oh yeah yet another land" and i'd only get to combo 1 each 7 times, but then a friend of mine would be like "yes turn 3, let's go for the combo" and would get it just fine.
Mycosynth lattice locks existed before Karn thanks to stony silence, but obviously that’s symmetrical so it wasn’t really played anywhere. Plus with karn you can -2 to get it from the board, making it technically a 1 card combo
I disagree with the second one. The very next set Kamigawa brought us Shatter storm in green, "Destroy target artifact or enchantment search graveyard hand library remove all copies ect ect. Combined with the lattice you could wreak havoc on an opponents mana.
Lattice was kind of always broken. "Everything is X" is already great. Everything being the type that has SO MUCH synergy was amazing. There's cards like "artifacts are indestructible" that can shut down your entire opponent's deck, or the dragon that steals all artifacts when it attacks and, surprise, you win the game if you control 15 or more artifacts. It was well and truly busted always and has only gotten stronger
I liked using leonin abunas, darksteel forge, corrosive growth, hellkite tyrant, mycosynth golem, cranial plating, spikeshot goblin with it among others. Friends didn't like it so much.
Lantern control was my favorite deck to face. I played mill at the time. Stick a crab and they can't control much due to every card in deck being a mill spell
I'm almost certain elsik isn't the one who first spoke about lantern on forums, merely the first person to see what had been written on forums, adapt it, and win a tournament with it. He was not original poster though
Def the card that came to mind was arc light phoenix I remember listening to Gerry Thompson convincing ppl to buy and then realizing it was busted and watching it skyrocket from bulk to 30$
woah demonic consultation sounds so much like pot of desires in yugioh. pot of desires is obviously fantastic great amazing card that goes +1 for "free" but it banishes facedown (which is the yugioh version of exiling) the top 10 cards of the deck first. so it can potentially banish all copies of a certain monster that you need or a combo piece. and while that's a very real risk that means it's not playable in every deck, in a lot of decks desires is objectively correct. the odds of banishing all 3 copies of an important card is so low that even though it could mean you lose the game on the spot if u do banish all copies, desires is still worth playing. sometimes even if decks plays only 1 copy of a combo piece, as long as that combo piece isn't super necessary for the deck to play to still function, the free +1 is so good it's just worth the risk.
![[⚔] Stronghold Crusader - Mission 43 The Desert Warriors Gameplay- Stronghold Witcher MOD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YlwObNnLqqI/mqdefault.jpg)
Check out the insight article here: bit.ly/3Ihi0l6
in dutch stroopwafel is pronounced with an o sound instead of an oe sound
Second Sunrise did give us one of the greatest moments of MtG coverage ever...Brian Kibler setting a piece of paper with f6 written on it on the table and then literally walking away from the table to do something else while his opponent comboed off for the next several minutes...absolute legend right there 😂
Brian Kibler has always been the full package. Incredible player, entertaining commentator and down to earth person
Blame Kiebler
My favorite legend about eggs is the guy who in semifinals of a pro tour put an F5 token in play to go use the bathroom
I remember watching a guy that wrote “F6” on a paper and held it up to the camera while someone was doing some combo, probably eggs. But he never left the table
The legend Brian Kibler
Kibler went to get a coffee or something if I remember correctly.
what exactly is an F5 token?
@@klutzedufus it was f6. One of the function keys on a computer keyboard, and those used to have functionality on mtgo. F6 was "pass priority until my turn". So when Kibler was bored by watching his opponent go off with Eggs, he scribbled "F6" on a piece of paper, put it down on his board and went to do more exiting things.
I remember they printed the only new dredge card only to kill the lantern control
Given the cards WOTC have been printing in the last few years, saying "a 1-mana 6/6 will never not be good" feels like tempting fate...
Goblin Lore and Burning Inquiry enabled hollowvine BS to explode out of nowhere.
It's funny with Demonic Consultation, because the same sort of thing happened in Yugioh regarding Pot of Desires. Desires says "Banish the top 10 cards of your deck face-down: Draw 2", and there's still people that are scared to run it because "what if they banish all the cards they need", but the math works that it's way more useful to have this card, since the games are fast and having a 6 card opening hand is way stronger than 5 (7 vs 6 for if you're going 2nd). Decks that do run garnets (1 ofs you don't want to draw but are engine requirements), naturally can't run this card, but any deck that runs 3 ofs for all its engine and has some redundancy, should because the card advantage is so strong, even if it does cut you off some resources.
Yeah, these sorts of cards make a simple statement: if your deck can't run with a few cards missing, it was probably a lame deck.
I remember when Dark Depths, Mishra's Bauble, and Counterbalance were all bulk, while Orhan Viper was the chase rare in Coldsnap
Gotta love lantern number 1!! So much fun to play!
Love your channel!
Lantern ❤
love the inclusion of clips from previous videos, great job :)
I don't understand the comment about Planeswalkers being limited to pluses and minuses after WAR. Quintorius Kand in LCI literally has a triggered ability. Kaya in MKM also has a triggered ability. Ashiok in WOE has a static ability that applies a replacement effect on paying life. It's just simply not true what Jamin said.
They're rare though
3:57 that's a weird point to make, considering that just about every recent planeswalker has a static ability.
After MOM they're down to one planeswalker per Standard-legal set now, but each one of them so far has had a static ability.
And on the understandability scale, they're not doing too hot... Ashiok, Wicked Manipulator seems to cause a ton of people to be confused about the rules, and Kaya, Spirits' Justice is almost incomprehensible.
Only two planeswalkers in Standard have static abilities your opponent needs to remember, ONE Kaya (Hexproof) and The Eternal Wanderer (can't be attacked by more than one creature), both of which only serve to protect themselves. There are a fair few triggered abilities, and a few other statics like Tyvar or Wrenn and Realmbreaker which give more options to their controller, but nothing like the WAR statics which had tons of one-sided "gotcha" prison effects your opponent could run into by mistake. Between Karn, Narset, T3feri, Dovin, Ashiok, Tamiyo, The Wanderer, Teyo, and Tibalt, there were as many planeswalkers with that sort of design in WAR alone as have been printed in the nearly five years worth of new sets since.
@@Metallicity There fact that there were in that one set 1/3 the number of new planeswalkers that have been released in the years since that set, and 1/4 the planeswalkers released before that set is probably a big part of why, they were stuffing so many walkers into a single set it's hard to make them feel impactful and unique without digging into some weird design spaces. It was a mistake of course and they're overcorrecting now
@@AaronRotenbergRight? It'd be a good point if it was true, but most planeswalkers since WAR have had either a static ability, or some other sort of ability above the loyalty ones (even if it's an alternate/additional casting cost, like the compleated walkers).
@@Metallicity4:14 Except his point wasn't about effects the opponent needs to care about. That's a strawmen here, or moving the goalposts at best. He very specifically said that planeswalkers only have loyalty abilities again now, leaving the other effects to other permanents...except that's not true.
Demonic Consultation+Thassa's Oracle
Just name a card not in your deck...
I think the reason that technically doesn't count is that Thassa's Oracle is much more recent. (Theros Beyond Death, if my memory doesn't fail me?)
I'm pretty sure demonic consultation was banned before oracle. But that would be busted.
@@therealax6 Doesn't count for what? Mycosynth Lattice was here as a card that got better when Karn, the Great Creator was released 15 years later, so why wouldn't Thassa's Oracle count for the card that made Demonic Consultation better when it came out in Theros Beyond Death exactly two sets after War of the Spark (and 25 years after the Consultation)?
Best card to name "You Are Already Dead" from Kamigawa Neon Dynasty
@@ReyosBlackwood Because the story they told about when Demonic Consultation began to be considered good predates Thassa's Oracle by over a decade. By the time Thassa's Oracle was released, Demonic Consultation was long known to be a good card.
I would add Liquid Metal Coating to this list. Typically not a great card but once you consider all the cheap mana cost cards that destroy artifacts, it becomes a powerful maneuver. I've won many games just because my opponent's gets fed up and scoop
Love these interesting types of videos, fantastic. Also saw you guys on Magic the Noah, was hilarious how kind you were to each other, normally he's expecting people to gang up on the winner and be petty about past minor slights etc. Conversely, you all tied at 0 points so who's to say what's better.
Lantern won a GP I played in Australia, it was oppressive in the final
Mycosynth is so freaking cool! I kinda wanna play that card without that karn just for affinity stuff, it sounds mad fun
Amulet of Vigor used to be a bulk rare. I built around it with a Standard 5 color charm deck that ran all of the Shards of Alara tap lands, alongside all of the alara charms and some planeswalkers. The deck was cool, but definitely only worked due to the Amulet. I thought I had mined the maximum value out of a junk rare, so I put the cards away, satisfied that I had given the card it's due. Imagine my surprise when I return to the game 5 years later, and it's a $8 card, and then $25+ just a few years after that. Amulet titan is such a force in Modern that the deck has seen half a dozen cards banned from it (although, not always exclusively because of Amulet Titan itself, it's just a deck that is good at using any powerful expensive wincon in the format). Definitely one that's worth mentioning in my book.
Long before karn in kitchen tabletop I would run mycosynth lattice, mirari's wake for the anthem (obviously double mana helped, but it wasn't the combo) and March of the machines, suddenly everyone else's lands are 0/0 Artifact creatures...
Ahhh yes, risk it for the stroopwafel…. 🍪 Ancient Dutch saying 😂😂😂
I'd risk it for one!
Demonic Consultation did get better just by people realizing it's still better to risk losing with it than to need an out and have no chance of getting it, sure, but where it really shines is once lab maniac and Thoracle style cards started to come out. Naming a card that's not even in your deck while the thassa's oracle trigger is on stack may be more of a commander play than any other format, but it does work really well.
I always loved Mycosynth Lattice with March of the Machines..... kill everyone's land.... Had a deck with gilded lotus and pemmin's aura for infinite mana, with Memnarch to take everyone's things. Fun times back when Mirrodin was around.
On the Karn/Lattice lock.
There was a funny screenshot floating around where someone had reversed the lock by casting CoCo in response and putting in a Collector Ouphe.
Hey guys!
Loved the video! Thanks for the great content!
An idea for you all is maybe the mirror of this video?
"5 Cards that COULD break the game" - Basically cards that are simply untested [due to lack of support or etc]
For starters a card that is close [in commander] to being a recognizable card given the value artifacts hold is: Chief Engineer.
The ability is seen as good but with a little more pay off [like the Jeskai Angel] I see the Vedalken being a household name.
I used to use the latice and the first karn (silver gollem) to blow up lands for 1 mana
The fact that Lion's Eye Diamond was never mentioned seems like revisionist history.
The card was a bulk rare that saw little to no play up and until Infernal Tutor was printed. It was designed as a bad black lotus, and was seen as a bad black lotus for a long time. It was basically seen as the equivalent of One With Nothing. An effect so odd, and yet it must be powerful somehow, and it never found a home, that is until Infernal Tutor was printed and eternal formats realized that they could use LED to pay for the thing that the tutor got and could discard their hand before the spell was resolved. And now, at this point, people realize how powerful the card is outside of infernal tutor shenanigans and it has maintained a $500+ cost as a result.
"outside of infernal tutor shenanigans" is a lie, the card is only used in storm decks with Demonic Tutor (or equivalent), dredge decks where discarding the hand for free is the main point, and combo decks like Doomsday where 3 mana is 3 mana, since the important card is on the top of the deck, and a cantrip is on the stack.
@@LibertyMonk i think you misread what I typed.
I said that it is seeing play outside of infernal tutor decks. It was originally played in TES in legacy because of the infernal tutor interaction where you could setup 1 or 2 LEDs on your combo turn, do a bunch of cantripping, cast a dark or cabal ritual and then with everything floating, cracks the LEDs with infernal tutor on the stack, get your tendrils and win.
Now, it is played outside of that deck as people have seen its power in TES decks. We are talking around 20 or so years ago now in a game that is over 30. But for the first decade of magic's history, LED was seen as utter garbage that you wouldn't even clean your butt with.
@@LibertyMonkBefore Infernal Tutor, nobody saw value in the card. Now, it is a staple of everything you listed, plus Bomberman and a few other combo decks. LED is insanely powerful as a result of players realizing how to negate the downside or turn it into an advantage.
Yah basically.
@JohnFromAccounting speaking of Bomberman I'm pretty sure legacy Bomberman was always around.
Tarmogoyf was a $1 card for a long time when Future Sight was released and then skyrocketed for obvious reasons when Tribal and Plainswalkers were released and became so popular
tarmogoyf was never a 1€ card. it was super expensive immediately.
@@MrPiotrVnah it was definitely $1-$2 at first
@@MrPiotrVfalse, the card was $3 before release (pre-sales and pre release), only jumped to the $10-20 range "immediately" and took a several months to climb up to "super expensive".
You're right that it wasn't "$1 for a long time," but there is a story about someone offering to buy every goyf available at an event for a high price, which a week later turned out to be a steal.
I think after a few plays. people realized how easy it is to get 2+ card types, especially fetch lands into the yard/
@@alanyuan8565 Maybe more important, because of how its P/T is checked, it was resilient against Lightning Bolt
The lantern of insight deck reminds me of the Mystic Mine deck from Yugioh. Essentially, they would play a permanent called "Mystic Mine" that locked both players out of creature abilities and then play a permanent called "Goddess of Skuld's Revenge" that would let you look at the top 3 cards of you opponent's deck and place them back in any order. With these 2 cards, you can prevent your opponent from using creature abilities to remove the "Mystic Mine" while also preventing them from drawing into any non-creature outs due to stacking their draws with "Goddess Skuld's Oracle".
Technically it wasn't "bad", but Oath of Druids was significantly less consistent/useful before Forbidden Orchard.
Tarmagoyf was considered almost unplayable on release and was a bulk-rare for a few years.
Same with Stoneforge Mystic which was "just O-K" until Sword of Feast and Famine and later Batterskull.
If we're counting very-short-term "considered bad", Psychatog was a proxy until folks realized they'd rather have it than the card it was subbing for.
You could pick up a Force of Will for a few cents when it came out because losing a card was considered too high a cost to be playable at first.
Demonic consultation also found a use as a combo piece (most notably in commander) to exile your entire library and win via labmaniac-like effects.
Mycosynth Lattice is one of my key pieces in a new deck I've made recently around abusing cards that aren't artifacts that you've made into artifacts!
Pretty interesting to put second sunrise here, people usually just chalk it up to being time and ignores power.
But super appreciate the context :D
I made an EDH Group Hug Deck that used Mycosynth Lattice to do opposite...It gives lots of mana, card draw, land draw, lands work no matter mana, and lands count for more mana (mana flare + mirrorworks is fun)... It is an Enabler Group Hug deck. I love it. Usually end the game by giving everyone 20 cards at once plus infinite handsize...and others just do their thing.
(I'm assuming there's an errata, but I'll say this anyway) With the phrasing of Second Sunrise, it should bypass graveyard exiles. It says "Each player returns to play all (X) that were put into his or her graveyard from play this turn." It doesn't say it returns from the graveyard, it says returns to play. So even if you exile them from the graveyard, they still went there from play this turn, so they should come back. If that wasn't errata'd, then this card would definitely be in OP territory.
Commander would extend this list by a lot starting with Rhystic Study.
I enjoy that we've now entered the Cardmarket Extended Universe where older videos can get clipped into the new videos for additional context / for the lols
Surprised Lion's Eye Diamond didn't make the list.
that was actually a bad card for a long ass time and people thought it was bad as well
Yup. I remember LED was trash for a LONG time... Until cards were printed that interacted with it
Early into me playing magic, before EDH got big when my friends and I just played 60 card kitchen table, I came up with the lantern of insight deck on my own. I didn't know anything about competitive magic at the time and I don't think the deck had been played competitively yet anyway. I didn't get mine to work, probably because I wasn't good enough at the game yet to know how to effectively control the top card of my opponent's deck in different situations. I felt really validated a few years later when I heard the same idea using lantern and codex shredder had made a pro tour.
I recognized how good Death's Shadow could be in Standard. I came up with a surprisingly effective list. But I was super-paranoid about the burn matchup, so I made sure I was prepared to sideboard against it.
I think brewers are underrated and often it takes 2-4 iterations for a deck to get good. I remember hearing the Lantern Control players saying that they worked on the deck for over 2 years before it became playable.
There's also Flame Fusillade that ended up being a creating a combo deck - when Time Vault got its next errata to basically say "Skip a turn: Untap Time Vault", turning it into a two-card infinite damage combo.
Bazaar of Baghdad went from unplayable to one of the strongest cards in the entire game's history
Along with Lion’s Eye Diamond.
Dredge, eh?
I was expecting both to be in the list
Surpised to not see Lion's Eye Diamond in this video or in the article. I liked the video though! very interesting.
Don't forget Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle. That one is just nuts.
Not sure how they missed these effects... its like the main reason the card sees play
both of those cards are obviously busted lmao
I like the little Black Lotus price show up, made me audibly chuckle.
Could you make that 1 mana 13/13 into a 50/50? Somehow take your life into the negative and not lose because of a platinum angel or similar card?
When the card first blew up, it was because of a combo on MtGO of Phyrexian Unlife and . . . I don't remember the other card anymore, but it did get your life _deep_ in the negative before using Fling or Rite of Consumption to yeet a gigantic Death's Shadow at the opponent. The rules were actually changed to state that negative life totals were considered to be 0 for effects like Death's Shadow as a result of someone yeeting a 50/50 at their opponent.
I'm glad you had Trix in teh honorable mentions. that was one of my favorite decks of all time.
Manabond was like that. It was mostly because there weren't a lot of great lands to bring back, even when dredge was introduced. But eventually it just became a thing you could do.
Damn second sunrise is cool. Too bad it gets reamed by a single nihil spellbomb...
6:20 This is super Interesting, because this is the exact reason I don’t use stitchers supplier in my yawgmoth edh deck. it has a huge graveyard subtheme but only for creatures and nothing hurts me more than feeling like I’m not in control of my gameplan when I accidentally mill one of my mass recursion spells or a super synergistic piece that I can’t access anymore
Try putting it in
Sad to see no mention LED considering it was mostly unplayable before Yawgmoth's will
I might be a bit off on some of these as they were before my time, but:
Lion's Eye diamond was bad until infernal tutor.
Dark depths was bad until vampire hexmage.
Nourishing Shoal was bad until Grisebrand.
I guess there are also a ton of halves of a+b combos that were bad until they got another combo piece printed (chain of smog, sword of the meek, grindstone, etc)
Most important question here, where did you get that hoodie? That is 🔥
Mycosynth Lattice/darksteel forge was a combo used in EDH pretty much right away. Add in a Nevinyrral's disk and you wipe out your opponents' everything while your stuff is indestructible.
Huh, I figured Lion's Eye Diamond and then also Necropotence would have made this list. When those cards came out they were trash. I remember throwing LEDs away with other cards cause it wasn't even $0.75 and we just tossed it out at the end of a day.
My first thought is how we mentioned the play pattern of the eggs deck without the immortal kibler F6 .
2nd I'm surprised Lion's Eye Diamond didn't show up here
Bazaar and LED really slept on here, I was expecting Bazaar to be the #1 on the lost the whole video.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Tarmogoyf. A card that was a bulk rare at first, but then became THE MOST powerful creature in Modern for over a decade.
I was active in the forum where the Lantern thread started. The thread exploded pretty quickly and became the most popular thread in the Modern sub-forum almost immediately. I remember being almost dumbfounded by the fact that so many people got interested in such a stupid idea and stuck with it for so long. It was such a weird experience eventually being proven wrong to *that* extend and I haven't experienced anything remotely close to this ever since.
Of course after the deck won its first tournament the creator of the original thread went to the Legacy sub-forum and tried to convince people there that a Legacy version of the deck he was working on would soon take over that format as well. None of the other Legacy players took him seriously that time and I guess the nay-sayers won that particular round.
Lantern Control is every true control players wet dream. I must say, nothing is more enjoyable than an ensnaring bridge, a bunch of pithing needles, codex shredders, and bojuka bogs to deal with graveyard decks. And in the mirror match, Stony Silence, and Altar of the Brood.
I didn’t play many tournaments but I took a burn deck into a tournament and lost to an eggs deck and that was actually one of the reasons why I didn’t play in many tournaments.
It was not so much the fact that it was a consistent combo that was faster than my burn deck. It was the fact that it could fizzle at any time and I just had to sit there and watch and hope for the combo to fizzle which had a low chance of happening. It was a very very unfun deck to have around. And I was very happy when it was banned.
The number 1 spot should absolutely go to Balustrade Spy/Undercity Informer, two cards that at first glance look like pack filler but in the right deck literally win you the game on the spot the moment you use their ability.
I actually watched the vid of Cifka winning the pro tour with eggs, and it was great. Not necessarily the gameplay itself, but he was so freaking elated to win - it was a great moment for Magic IMO.
Lantern of Insight would've been among my top picks for this!
I made a deck arround demonic consultation back when it came out. PPl laughed at me a lot. I also won a lot. Cause as it turns out. Drawing into your combo even if it is the last card you draw is game winning,
Also i think i only decked out once.
Did Varolz, the Scar-Striped ever get played in deaths shadow? Seems like a great combo.
Where's faithless looting in this top 5? It's definitely top 5 worthy
For "Second Sunrise" I was expecting "Armageddon" or "Fall of Thran" to wise opponent lands :'D but that works just as well !
The secret flavor text of Lantern of Insight is: There is a limited amount of fun to be had in a game of MTG and I intend to have all of it.
The best part of all these cards is just the joy of unleashing a brand new rogue deck that no one's ready for, and leaving them asking how they just lost to a pile of bulk rares.
i think at n.1 there should be tabernacle at pendrell vale. When legends came out, and for several time it was worth 50 cents. people taking it out from a booster pack was like "why am i so unlucky?"
Great video!
But I have to ask, Carl - where did you get that jacket? Gotta have one :O
I would love a video, where everybody can design a magic card with no limitations and you vote, which would be the best one. Like 0 mana instant: you win the game.
I Think i might have spotted a small mistake.
At 5:30 you wrote on the screen that black lotus is 24.199€ insted of what im guessing is 24,199€
They write all prices using the German convention for numbers, which uses commas for decimal places and periods for thousands separators. (Many European languages do it this way - English is the rare exception.)
Nah not a mistake
Lattice + vandalblast is one of my top wincons of my eldrazi commander deck ;)
"Risk it for the stroopwafel" xD, love it!
playing demonic consultation and naming a card that is actually in your deck is highly unusual nowadays :D
HARD disagree with Lattice, in itself it is still a "bad" card, it just happens to combo with a broken card.
Otherwise I remember looking at the Death's Shadow in my binder for years and thinking "Man this is a cool card, I'm sure a deck that uses it would be so cool". And yeah, love that deck !
PLEASE cover a live pro tour or world championship or whatever. I will be beaultifull!
Minor point, but could the GBP prices have '.' swapped for ',' and ',' for '.'? I got very confused about the Black Lotus pricing for a second.
The Demonic Consultation/Thassa's Oracle combo is one of my favouites :)
"The internet does internet things"
I feel like Thoralf was in that thread saying "noob"
Carl looks so happy in the thumbnail lol
The problem is that Karn could also wish for the lattice from your sideboard on top of having thr powerful static.
Man this channel is great
I played Mycosynth Lattice in standard with March of the Machines as a combodeck. The Combo kills all lands and lets me win with some manarocks afterwards. :)
There was a stretch after MH2 came out that Grief cost a few dollars and I heard frequently that the Scam deck was called that because you were scamming yourself out of your entry fee by registering it.
Ohhh yeah eggs deck, i remember when i tried playing it and when i decided to finally throw the combo my draws would be like "land, land, land, land, land, land, land, land, land oh yeah yet another land" and i'd only get to combo 1 each 7 times, but then a friend of mine would be like "yes turn 3, let's go for the combo" and would get it just fine.
Mycosynth lattice locks existed before Karn thanks to stony silence, but obviously that’s symmetrical so it wasn’t really played anywhere. Plus with karn you can -2 to get it from the board, making it technically a 1 card combo
My pick was Tarmogoyf. When the set was spoiled it was considered one of the worst cards in it, until a player brought it to a pro tour...
I disagree with the second one.
The very next set Kamigawa brought us Shatter storm in green, "Destroy target artifact or enchantment search graveyard hand library remove all copies ect ect.
Combined with the lattice you could wreak havoc on an opponents mana.
Carl, where do you buy your clothes? Because you usually dress so cool.
Like the hoodie on this video...
Btw, awesome video, as always
I am part of that small community lantern of insight woooooo!
Lattice was kind of always broken. "Everything is X" is already great. Everything being the type that has SO MUCH synergy was amazing. There's cards like "artifacts are indestructible" that can shut down your entire opponent's deck, or the dragon that steals all artifacts when it attacks and, surprise, you win the game if you control 15 or more artifacts. It was well and truly busted always and has only gotten stronger
I liked using leonin abunas, darksteel forge, corrosive growth, hellkite tyrant, mycosynth golem, cranial plating, spikeshot goblin with it among others. Friends didn't like it so much.
Lantern control was my favorite deck to face. I played mill at the time. Stick a crab and they can't control much due to every card in deck being a mill spell
My friend once traded four Tarmogoyfs for a Bitterblossom. A week later, Tarmogoyf was worth $60.
I'm almost certain elsik isn't the one who first spoke about lantern on forums, merely the first person to see what had been written on forums, adapt it, and win a tournament with it. He was not original poster though
I fucking LOVE yall but are you really calling Death's Shadow bad? It's in the top 50 cards ever printed...
Def the card that came to mind was arc light phoenix I remember listening to Gerry Thompson convincing ppl to buy and then realizing it was busted and watching it skyrocket from bulk to 30$
Great content!
woah demonic consultation sounds so much like pot of desires in yugioh. pot of desires is obviously fantastic great amazing card that goes +1 for "free" but it banishes facedown (which is the yugioh version of exiling) the top 10 cards of the deck first. so it can potentially banish all copies of a certain monster that you need or a combo piece. and while that's a very real risk that means it's not playable in every deck, in a lot of decks desires is objectively correct. the odds of banishing all 3 copies of an important card is so low that even though it could mean you lose the game on the spot if u do banish all copies, desires is still worth playing. sometimes even if decks plays only 1 copy of a combo piece, as long as that combo piece isn't super necessary for the deck to play to still function, the free +1 is so good it's just worth the risk.