I used your method on my saw too - really made a big difference. Impressive that you still have the original blade. I would have cut that up into throwing knives or washers by now :D
I love that I am still around 3 to 5 years ago in terms of catching up to your videos. I love watching them. For the dry yet funny jokes, the occasional verbal expression when creating a "unique" feature(no mistakes here). I will catch up to your current content sooner or later. Thanks for all the great videos thus far!
I used to work as an engineer at a marble factory where we deal with blades over 1 meter in diameter. The flange face that makes contact with the blade has an inner and outer diameter. The flange face actually should not be flat, i.e., less than 90 degrees from the axle. There should be a slight angle inward so initially, what should be touching the blade is just the outer diameter of the flange. As you tighten the nut, the force pushes the flange from the center. This actually "flattens out" the whole face. So if you grind it flat, the outer part will flare out as you tighten it and only the inner part of the flange will grip the blade, hence the wobble.
+Matthias Wandel That fricken flange was a rickety rocking chair. So Delta machined neither the flange nor the arbor. How are we supposed to machine a slight angle without a metal lathe. Delta POS sucks!!
+boksbox Before anything, what is the acceptable tolerance? what is the reference or specifications that machine should comply to. For one digit of variations which could be due to to the motion rather than the flatness cannot be perfect more than that for this kind of dial. Then considering even within the bearing itself there is few microns of clearance. High precision bearings such as air and magnetic bearing are out of the price and application range of this machine. All in all, it looks well made machine. May be the blade need to be upgraded
That is a fantastically tiny wobble, I only wish I had any tool that was so true that a .01mm wobble would be worth fixing. I'm glad you pushed on the arbor to show just how tiny the movement is.
Most manufacturers set the quality dial at 'just good enuf'. Things usually will not improve unless customers voice the issues. So I encourage folks to give their feedback to the manufacturer - both good and bad - so that things can improve (if the manufacturer hears enough feedback, and cares enough.) Do your part, and let them know. Thanks for sharing Matthias.
Nice, I think youre well within the precision limit ouf your dial indicator :) (Dont get down in the rabbithole of buying a tenth or 1/1000mm indicator, its a good way to drive yourself crazy)
After reading your article, I did this with 2 magnetic wall tool holders, they are thick steel and pull really strong on the cast iron top, worked great.
You got some nice results here! I have a 1974 Delta/Rockwell Unisaw that I rebuilt about 5 years ago. I checked run-out at that time and did have about 5 thousands. I used a similar method, but with a power grinder to true mine up. Well worth the time.
I recently rebuilt my Delta contractors saw with new arbor bearings, arbor and arbor bracket. Noticed the arbor was NOT true. Put it in a metal lathe and turned the arbor face. Dialed in the tracking to the miter slot and made an incredible difference. LOVE IT. Had the saw since new in 1992.
I’ve got a cheap drill press with a buggered tapered chuck mount. I’m going to try this strategy to see if I can get the taper corrected. I can’t wait. Thanks so much for the video.
Thank you for the very helpful video. ( and many of your others which i have shamelessly copied from). I really appreciate the time you take to share your knowledge. Perhaps I can add a little to the conversation. I have an old old saw that has been beaten up by many previous owners. I too had really bad table saw wobble. Bought a new blade, now just had bad wobble (2-3 mm at blade tip). I found your video with great relief. I measured the arbour play and it was about 2-5 thou out. I was then all set to grind the arbour flange. But then I checked the saw flanges. I had two aluminium ones that fitted either side of the blade. Upon closer inspection they were knackered with over tightening and general abuse. So I hunted around the shed found an old substantial flange used for a grinding wheel that was flat. I ditched both aluminium flanges, had a quick file of the fitted flange, fitted the saw blade directly against the fixed arbour flange, put the newly found grinding flange on the other side, tightened the nut and my 3mm play at the saw tip was reduced to 6 thou. not perfect but i have just finished ripping 50 metres of hardwood with very smooth results. So my suggested contribution is before grinding away at the arbour flange, check your removable flanges and make sure they are not the contributor to your wobble. thank you again for guiding me to a good solution Matt
I honestly never would've thought to come at the issue from this perspective. Great idea even when shopping used table saws out there that you have some options available to you to true it up if you can find a good deal.
Good technique,the machine shop term is "grinding insitu" which is used to achieve absolute runout on a variety of machine tool spindles. That last few ten-thousandths you are seeing is probably the accuracy limits of the bearings used in the saw's arbor.What you have done is probably as good as it will ever be,well done!
I agree with what you done so far Mathias. I would like to add to it a little. As you showed on the video, which is excellent ,just touching the arbor or tabletop would show a deflection. With this in mind, its easy to then understand that vibrations in the belt (s) can result in deflections in the blade, especially during the first 5-10 minutes of operation of the table saw. In the mid 90's I turned a sears table saw into a super smooth cutter by a couple simple ,not too pricey corrections . The first was by replacement of the original belt with a Browning FHP automotive belt (cogged) and by the addition of blade stabilizers to stiffen the thin kerf blades. Believe it or not ,the inexpensive Piranha blades could be made to cut extremely smooth on 3/4 inch red oak ,with or against the grain.( When I updated to a Rockwell Unisaw with new bearings and a Freud blade I did not get a smoother cut but just the ability to maintain that smoothness up to 3inch oak due to the additional HP) To test if you might gain from a quality belt is easy. Make a test cut ,then leave your tablesaw to run about 20 minutes doing nothing. Then do another cut. If there is noticeable improvement,there may be an issue with your belt/pulleys.....especially if any of them are crappy cast aluminum.
It really grinds my gears that saws don't come with good alignment or a perfectly flat arbor, or even a decent blade. I worked with a saw that made rather poor cuts but got tired of it and finally researched it, I bought a depth gauge and honing stone. I found the Z alignment out by about 2 degrees (yes from the factory) and had about the exact same experience as you did with the arbor. I wholeheartedly recommend Frueds Diablo blades in the as-many-teeth-as-you-can-get variety, these blades are amazing. With all this, my saw cuts like it should, just like yours. You really feels no resistance when cutting soft woods and a great finish. If I built saws, they would leave my factory like this, there no pride in factory craftsmanship these days.
+GreenAppelPie SAWSTOP makes the best saw on the market in my opinion. I've had one for over ten years and find it still runs true.Agree on the blades I use them far more the Forrest.
My first (and current) table saw is mostly made from aluminium (but it is rather big and sturdy) The arbor is made form aluminium as well so I was able to turn that true with normal woodturning tools and my 0.01 indicator Can't pick up anything, I don't see blade wobble at the tip either. Really made a huge difference!
Thank you for this video. You read my mind! After hearing you mention this problem a few videos back, I had been wondering how you tested and fixed it. I have a Delta with a similar issue and finally know how to check whether this is the cause. Thanks again!
You get a nicer cut than I do with my german pk-100 saw, but I think it's also a bit worn and everything might not be perfectly squared after 40 years.
Used this method today on my 12" SIP saw here in Ireland. Picked the saw up a few days ago and noticed the wobble of 0.5mm over 12". Assumed it was the blade so I fitted a new Freud 10" blade I had in the garage (luckily both 10" and 12" saws here in Europe have 30mm shafts) the 10" had pretty much the same wobble. Put a dial on the arbour and found it was out by around 0.2mm (I have a metric dial) Found that the two holes drilled into the arbour flange had distorted the mounting face where the blade sits. Terrible design... Raised the arbour and set to 45 degrees and held my diamond plate against it for a few seconds with the 400grit side, it clattered a bit then stopped after a shart while. I wiped the face clean and then held the 1000grit diamaond against it for a few seconds. I now have at most 0.005mm on the arbour face. Whole process took around 5mins. The diamond sharpening stone/ plate also works great on the cast iron table and tracks.
To correct my run out I affixed sand paper to a blade stabilizer. I put it on the arbour and secured it to a board on the table. I turned on the saw and pressed the stabilizer into the arbour. The stabilizer approach ensures flatness and 90 degrees to the screw part of the arbour. I was inspired by Mathias.
I had the same issue with my old cast iron saw. I took out the arbour and tried your method, but eventually I gave up and had a machinist friend turn it true on the lathe.
So hilarious! I just came upstairs from my shop frustrated after just replacing my hardly used Freud blade with yet another new one on my Rigid cast iron table saw because of wobble. Opened up TH-cam and this video was staring me in the face. I'm going to give it a try.
How to figure out if it's a bent blade or arbor: measure the high spot, mark the arbor and blade with a sharpie. Loosen the nut and clock the blade 90deg and retighten. Did the wobble follow the blade or the arbor?
I have a 50-year-old Rockwell delta that I restored it’s a great saw but I use this technique also and got decent results I just got through replacing the bearings in the motor and now except for the blade whirl you can barely hear it run I think I have about $30 invested in this good old saw.
This might be irrelevant, but did you try cleaning the arbor after grinding it? By rubbing a wet paper towel against the arbor while spinning, you'll remove a surprising amount of leftover particles.
Matthias, can you talk about why certain types of blades work better for different types of wood. I know you mentioned your Freud blade with square cutting heads once, but I'm curious about the differences with blades designed to cut plywood versus solid wood. I don't know when I should be switching my blade.
+esotericsean Not Matthias but since it's been a week, I thought I'd help you or anyone else interested out a little. Typically with blades, the less teeth there are and the bigger the gullets between them, the better they are for ripping(cutting with the grain). They cut faster, too. A blade with a lot of teeth(like 60+) is used for crosscutting(cutting across the grain). The more teeth there are, the less tear-out you'll typically get. These types of blades are usually good with veneered plywood, too, since they excel with tear-out. The down side is they cut slower and can burn(there's also more teeth to sharpen when that time comes around). Most people hate switching back and forth between a crosscutting blade and rip blade so they buy a combination blade. These blades are designed to combine aspects from both types of blades to get the best of both worlds from the same blade. They're not perfect but they're a nice compromise. I personally use a Freud Fusion blade and find it to be excellent with both crosscutting and ripping. Beyond the type of blade, there's also the type of tooth grind on the blades. There's Flat grinds, Alternating Top Bevel, High ATB, Triple Chip Grind, etc. You can research those more if you like but just for a quick rundown you want a flat grind if you plan on doing things that need a flat bottom saw kerf like dadoes, splines, etc. TCG is used for harder materials like melamine, I think(never used them). ATB and High ATB are good for crosscutting since the high angles of the teeth score the wood fibers before they're scraped away by another tooth which results in less tear-out. There's more to learn but that should give you a decent start. Most combination table saw blades use an ATB or High-ATB tooth grind. My Freud Fusion uses a High ATB and I really don't change my blade much at all. I'll use it for plywood, softwood, and hardwood. I typically only change if I'm doing a dado, rabbet, or spline(which needs the flat top). Hope this helps. If I missed something or have something wrong, others can feel free to correct me.
Mattias did you ever think that maybe putting in some good quality bearings might make a difference? The 36-650 and 655 were actually made with cheap bearings. Also straightening the teeth of a tablesaw blade to less than 0.001 works wonders.
Great video! I may try something this on my old Beaver table saw. Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it be better to set the blade to zero degrees, clamp the stone to the table saw fence, position the fence so the stone will just kiss the arbor, and then raise the spinning arbor to touch the stone? Seems better than finding heavy steel bars and moving the stone by hand. Any thoughts?
On a 1983 Sears contractors saw, I tried using a sharpening stone to dress out the .001" wobble on the arbor, but it didn't seem to take off enough material. That .001" wobble on the arbor turned into a .005" very visible wobble on the blade. I removed the arbor and asked a machinist to true it on his metal lathe. The blade now spins perfectly.
Good video Matthias. I'm a little surprised you didn't utilize your miter slot/miter gauge to jig a way of keeping the stone reliably squared to the face of the arbor surface. That, plus your big square stock steel pieces offering stability seems like a win ner.
I'm troubleshooting a recent saw issue after a tablesaw mishap that has left my saw cutting oddly. I'm looking at this to be the worst case scenario, when you had it at .0004" do you really think four ten-thousandths is out of spec? It seems a bit excessive to me. That's less than half of one thou, unless I somehow forgot how decimals work (quite possible). Anyway, I hope I don't have to go this route but thanks for showing me how!
Thanks for the video Matthias. Is there any reason this couldn't be attempted on the skilsaw worm drive table saw? Is it preferable to take the flange out of the saw to turn it on a lathe?
+Matthias Wandel Hehe just messing with ya, my first one from Homedepot had blade alignment issues so it went back assembled on the gravity rise stand, replacement one was much better. They are known for motor issues after a while as well. Thinking back for the money I spent I probably could have purchased a much better saw. I think I did look at the delta at Homedepot, but read reviews it didn't do a dado stack. Keep up the good work and cool videos.
Mathias! I just got an old saw like yours. But mine is missing the arbor nut. Can u tell me the arbor size and thread of this saw? I'm trying to locate a left thread acme or trapezoidal nut for mine.
You will never have anything be completely run out free. A half a thou is excellent eccentricity, even from metal working standards and it there is no point trying to get better than that, especially for wood working. That is such a small amount of run out that you could very easily cause MORE run out by trying to make it better.
Matthias Try a Diablo blade. I did and am very happy with it. It runs true, smooth and cuts very smooth and easy. It is an 80 tooth thin kerf blade. For your box joints it is too thin but for everything else you will be satisfied. I will not be buying any other brands in the future. Its expensive to be poor. In other words cheep crappy tools cost more in the long run.
If I carefully watch a thin kerf blade on even 1" oak... it appears to widen from vibration with feed pressure/movement. So the kerf widens and contracts with feed rate. Nice for low HP saws but my 3 HP unisaw never lacks power really. So I avoid thin kerfs.
i had a same problem after doing the arbor i done the teeth on the blade in a similar fashion...changing the bearings throughout then putting a very fine grit whetstone (i remember 3k on both sides of the blade at the same time and then putting fine grinding paste on a flat true hard metal on both sides and it came out very close to zero after of course balancing the blade to zero
Hi Matthias, As always a great video- thanks. I'm waiting patiently every week for a video from you. You should really increase the frequency of your videos as there is great demand!!!
I would suggest to mark the high spots on the arbor with lines that extend all the way across the face, then draw a continuous band all along the outer face of the arbor where it will contact the blade. Lightly grinding at this point will show you where you are removing material with your setup vs where you want to remove it. Vibrations in the arbor when running will limit your ability to get it to be the desired conical shape. As for why Delta or any saw maker can't hold tighter tolerance, manufacturers make products by specifying tolerance levels on the components they are made from, and only check a portion of them to verify that they are to spec. They cannot afford to expend as much time as you can to achieve close to perfect operation, as to do so they would be too costly for most of their customers.
Oh the irony! I was attempting the very same improvement to my Powermatic 66 when my Baldor 3 hp motor blew. Tripped the breakers, a puff of smoke and that was it. New Start and Run capacitors are not the fix, so I'll break it down and see if I can be as resourceful and pull a "Matthias" repair. Fingers crossed! I miss my saw.
So you don’t think tightening the screw behind the flange could to anything? I fing my arbour is turning around as I try to tighten the blade.should I even bother fixing the arbour or just dump it
never thought i'd say this in a wandel video but your solution was not complex enough ;) if you use a grinding bit chucked in a spindle and lock that in a jig, you could true it up and use it to grind out that last little bump. preferable the jig wouldn't rely on you pushing it into the flange by hand, but rather using a magnetic base to secure the jig to the cast iron table and feeding the grinding stone with an adjustment screw.
I think it is as close as you are going to get it, the problem may be in the bearings .0004 is better than the tolerances of your bearings. may be you could locate some ABEC 7 or ABEC 9 ceramic bearings they would add the precision you are looking for. then you need to think about balance and harmonics. great video keep them coming.
I know you made this video a long time ago, but I'm hoping you can tell me what specific stone works best for grinding the arbor on a table saw. Thanks!
+Roger Ramos like Mathias said I too just don't want to take it out of its home and to have it replaced. Having to measure the fence against tge front and back of the blade is annoying as well. I'm planning on getting a better fence soon. it's really such a shame cause I like the fence other than the fact it won't stay square lol
+Art Connolly I have the R4512 and replacing that POS fence was the best thing I did. I replaced it with a cheap t-square fence, but it's still way better. I plan on making Jeremy Schmidt's fence some day which is worth checking out if you can weld.
Own a r4512 myself. Was fortunate it was true using a dial indicator straight from the box. I did replace the fence shortly after purchasing as the factory one is junk. My personal favorite is the Inca fence for accuracy and repeatability. Since its lead screw driven, even post movement the fence can be set to nearly the identical dimension easily. (no plug for them intended, just my personal experience )
Had you tried replacing the drive belt with one of those "linked V belts before your grinding process, and was there any noticeable difference ? They are marketed for noise reduction and vibration reduction. Just curious as to whether they make any impact on difference at all.
I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere and I know it's an old video. I'm new to wood working and need to upgrade from a table top model I bought for home renovations. I was looking at the Delta models carried in the big box stores and wanted your thoughts on whether overall Delta's were worth getting? I'd like to avoid paying 100$ for shipping for a better model. The one I was considering would be the 725, another downside being stamped steel wings?
It's the 36-725 www.lowes.com/pd/DELTA-13-Amp-10-in-Table-Saw/50081568?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MiterAndTableSaws-_-50081568:DELTA&CAWELAID=&kpid=50081568&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1668&k_clickID=d3bc6bbd-e4b0-4f8f-a8e1-e746bc5d81c4 Seems like a cheaper version of the 5000. I'm right out of college and new to woodworking so I'm less worried about the power to chew through thick hardwood than getting the accuracy lacking in table top junk. Recent reviews I've seen all seem good but it's always hard to tell if they're applicable and Delta seems to have a bad rap.
+Coastal Virginia Gardening everything deflects when pushed. Even a 12" concrete foundation deflects when you walk on it. The dial gauge makes it seem like a bigger deal than it is.
+kraklakvakve I believe the Suspended Double Wheel (or something like that, I forgot the name) might work if you smoothen it out as much as possible and then varnish the parts before assembly.
Does this issue apply also to the hand held circular saws? Hence how about the home made table saw that you built? It was a Makita circular saw if I remember correctly? Do these type of saws also tend to be inaccurate? Also... I know you're not a big fan of mitre saws, but how about them? Thanks!
Your jig sanding on the arbor looked very wobbly. Do you think some sort of jig to keep you perpendicular to the arbor may have helped slightly? You used a different technique (moving saw up and down) with the 2nd more aggressive stone. I would think keeping arbor fixed, your 1st method, would have been better. Still, As you mentioned half a thousandth is way better than the POS that Delta gave you, and quite possibly the best that saw can do. Nice video, thank you again!
As someone who woodworks, but is also a broke student and can only really do this hobby on the cheap, how would I make the most out of a cheap plastic base table-saw?
Nice work. You could have ground the outer flange the same way you ground the arbor flange. Bolt the flange on the arbor in the reverse position to grind it. I am going to do this to my table saw but I am going to do both flanges with a convex grind like @boksbox suggested and I am going to flatten the grinding stone first.
there's no guarantee the flange will lie straight when you do that (no good reference surface) so you may end up grinding much more than necessary. The sandpaper is much better.
Matthias Wandel yes, that might be a problem. I am planning to check the run-out before I do any grinding. My Uni-saw is older and much more robust than yours and I am not anticipating much run-out or much deflection. Thanks for the ideas.
Thanks Matthias, two wobble related questions if you would: 1. Is there any point doing this with the arbor on your home made tablesaw v2? I know it'll never be as good as a cabinet saw, but could it be improved? 2. My drill press has some wobble too. I can't think how on earth I can get rid of it. Any advice?
I used this technique on my first table saw (a half junk saw with thin sheet metal base) and it really did work well. Made a big difference.
I used your method on my saw too - really made a big difference.
Impressive that you still have the original blade. I would have cut that up into throwing knives or washers by now :D
+John Heisz LOL!
Would you mind making a video on washer making? I'm quite interested now. Especially with any crazy technique you may have up your sleeve!
+P0tat0_craft or you could go to a place that sells general tablesaws and pay $5 for the hardened solid steel 1/4 thick washer to replace it.
+Jacilynn S I think that stamped steel washer acts as a lock washer too
+Alan Webster nope not needed delta's turn opposite thread so even if you left your nut loose as soon as you turn on saw it tightens right up.
I continue to be impressed by the difference the new lights are making. Very nice.
Why is it working on tools is sometimes more satisfying than working with tools? Great job, thanks for documenting your technique.
I love that I am still around 3 to 5 years ago in terms of catching up to your videos.
I love watching them. For the dry yet funny jokes, the occasional verbal expression when creating a "unique" feature(no mistakes here).
I will catch up to your current content sooner or later.
Thanks for all the great videos thus far!
I used to work as an engineer at a marble factory where we deal with blades over 1 meter in diameter.
The flange face that makes contact with the blade has an inner and outer diameter. The flange face actually should not be flat, i.e., less than 90 degrees from the axle. There should be a slight angle inward so initially, what should be touching the blade is just the outer diameter of the flange.
As you tighten the nut, the force pushes the flange from the center. This actually "flattens out" the whole face. So if you grind it flat, the outer part will flare out as you tighten it and only the inner part of the flange will grip the blade, hence the wobble.
+boksbox I did aim for slightly concave, though didn't mention that in the video. but good advice.
+Matthias Wandel
That fricken flange was a rickety rocking chair. So Delta machined neither the flange nor the arbor. How are we supposed to machine a slight angle without a metal lathe. Delta POS sucks!!
+boksbox Before anything, what is the acceptable tolerance? what is the reference or specifications that machine should comply to. For one digit of variations which could be due to to the motion rather than the flatness cannot be perfect more than that for this kind of dial. Then considering even within the bearing itself there is few microns of clearance. High precision bearings such as air and magnetic bearing are out of the price and application range of this machine. All in all, it looks well made machine. May be the blade need to be upgraded
+Hamid A It is specified by the blade manufacturer. Typically around 0.25mm side runout for 275-350mm diameter blades.
How much taper would that be on a table saw arbor?
That is a fantastically tiny wobble, I only wish I had any tool that was so true that a .01mm wobble would be worth fixing. I'm glad you pushed on the arbor to show just how tiny the movement is.
Most manufacturers set the quality dial at 'just good enuf'. Things usually will not improve unless customers voice the issues. So I encourage folks to give their feedback to the manufacturer - both good and bad - so that things can improve (if the manufacturer hears enough feedback, and cares enough.) Do your part, and let them know.
Thanks for sharing Matthias.
Nice, I think youre well within the precision limit ouf your dial indicator :)
(Dont get down in the rabbithole of buying a tenth or 1/1000mm indicator, its a good way to drive yourself crazy)
You're like the handyman I've always wanted in my life. Bless your kind soul.
Thank you Mathias, never even thought of looking at arbor. Genius. Absolute genius. I applaud you 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
After reading your article, I did this with 2 magnetic wall tool holders, they are thick steel and pull really strong on the cast iron top, worked great.
You got some nice results here! I have a 1974 Delta/Rockwell Unisaw that I rebuilt about 5 years ago. I checked run-out at that time and did have about 5 thousands. I used a similar method, but with a power grinder to true mine up. Well worth the time.
I recently rebuilt my Delta contractors saw with new arbor bearings, arbor and arbor bracket. Noticed the arbor was NOT true. Put it in a metal lathe and turned the arbor face. Dialed in the tracking to the miter slot and made an incredible difference. LOVE IT. Had the saw since new in 1992.
Nice one fella, like the way you just give things a go intuitively, helps me feel more confident to attempt this
I’ve got a cheap drill press with a buggered tapered chuck mount. I’m going to try this strategy to see if I can get the taper corrected. I can’t wait. Thanks so much for the video.
A carpenters guide to machining! Good video, as always. Looking forward to some more science experiment videos.
precision can be a cruel mistress, Happy New Year!
Thank you for the very helpful video. ( and many of your others which i have shamelessly copied from). I really appreciate the time you take to share your knowledge. Perhaps I can add a little to the conversation. I have an old old saw that has been beaten up by many previous owners. I too had really bad table saw wobble. Bought a new blade, now just had bad wobble (2-3 mm at blade tip). I found your video with great relief. I measured the arbour play and it was about 2-5 thou out. I was then all set to grind the arbour flange. But then I checked the saw flanges. I had two aluminium ones that fitted either side of the blade. Upon closer inspection they were knackered with over tightening and general abuse. So I hunted around the shed found an old substantial flange used for a grinding wheel that was flat. I ditched both aluminium flanges, had a quick file of the fitted flange, fitted the saw blade directly against the fixed arbour flange, put the newly found grinding flange on the other side, tightened the nut and my 3mm play at the saw tip was reduced to 6 thou. not perfect but i have just finished ripping 50 metres of hardwood with very smooth results.
So my suggested contribution is before grinding away at the arbour flange, check your removable flanges and make sure they are not the contributor to your wobble.
thank you again for guiding me to a good solution
Matt
I honestly never would've thought to come at the issue from this perspective. Great idea even when shopping used table saws out there that you have some options available to you to true it up if you can find a good deal.
Good technique,the machine shop term is "grinding insitu" which is used to achieve absolute runout on a variety of machine tool spindles.
That last few ten-thousandths you are seeing is probably the accuracy limits of the bearings used in the saw's arbor.What you have done is probably as good as it will ever be,well done!
all this for perfection, matthais you're awesome
nice, I love how methodical you are, wish more people were like that, especially the people who make the tools.
I agree with what you done so far Mathias. I would like to add to it a little. As you showed on the video, which is excellent ,just touching the arbor or tabletop would show a deflection. With this in mind, its easy to then understand that vibrations in the belt (s) can result in deflections in the blade, especially during the first 5-10 minutes of operation of the table saw. In the mid 90's I turned a sears table saw into a super smooth cutter by a couple simple ,not too pricey corrections . The first was by replacement of the original belt with a Browning FHP automotive belt (cogged) and by the addition of blade stabilizers to stiffen the thin kerf blades. Believe it or not ,the inexpensive Piranha blades could be made to cut extremely smooth on 3/4 inch red oak ,with or against the grain.( When I updated to a Rockwell Unisaw with new bearings and a Freud blade I did not get a smoother cut but just the ability to maintain that smoothness up to 3inch oak due to the additional HP) To test if you might gain from a quality belt is easy. Make a test cut ,then leave your tablesaw to run about 20 minutes doing nothing. Then do another cut. If there is noticeable improvement,there may be an issue with your belt/pulleys.....especially if any of them are crappy cast aluminum.
Another excellent void-of-pocket-screw-reference video! Great work!
It really grinds my gears that saws don't come with good alignment or a perfectly flat arbor, or even a decent blade. I worked with a saw that made rather poor cuts but got tired of it and finally researched it, I bought a depth gauge and honing stone. I found the Z alignment out by about 2 degrees (yes from the factory) and had about the exact same experience as you did with the arbor.
I wholeheartedly recommend Frueds Diablo blades in the as-many-teeth-as-you-can-get variety, these blades are amazing. With all this, my saw cuts like it should, just like yours. You really feels no resistance when cutting soft woods and a great finish. If I built saws, they would leave my factory like this, there no pride in factory craftsmanship these days.
+GreenAppelPie You'd have customers lined up and probably make very little money for your time.
+GreenAppelPie SAWSTOP makes the best saw on the market in my opinion. I've had one for over ten years and find it still runs true.Agree on the blades I use them far more the Forrest.
Thanks for this, followed your brilliant instructions and my saw is actually cutting a lot better and way more cleanly.
Wow. THAT is a clean cut.
Nice job Matthias! I don't blame you for not wanting to move it out and back in, most likely with the same result.
My first (and current) table saw is mostly made from aluminium (but it is rather big and sturdy) The arbor is made form aluminium as well so I was able to turn that true with normal woodturning tools and my 0.01 indicator Can't pick up anything, I don't see blade wobble at the tip either.
Really made a huge difference!
Nice tip sir. I have to tackle mine tomorrow morning and you saved me a lot of time.
Thank you for this video. You read my mind! After hearing you mention this problem a few videos back, I had been wondering how you tested and fixed it. I have a Delta with a similar issue and finally know how to check whether this is the cause. Thanks again!
Love your work Matthias, you are an inspiration for me.
never would have even thought to mess with my big equipment like that. good idea.
You get a nicer cut than I do with my german pk-100 saw, but I think it's also a bit worn and everything might not be perfectly squared after 40 years.
Delta should send you a spiff, I think you just schooled their engineers and quality control. And I learned something as well. Thanks and thumbs up.
Used this method today on my 12" SIP saw here in Ireland.
Picked the saw up a few days ago and noticed the wobble of 0.5mm over 12". Assumed it was the blade so I fitted a new Freud 10" blade I had in the garage (luckily both 10" and 12" saws here in Europe have 30mm shafts) the 10" had pretty much the same wobble. Put a dial on the arbour and found it was out by around 0.2mm (I have a metric dial)
Found that the two holes drilled into the arbour flange had distorted the mounting face where the blade sits.
Terrible design...
Raised the arbour and set to 45 degrees and held my diamond plate against it for a few seconds with the 400grit side, it clattered a bit then stopped after a shart while. I wiped the face clean and then held the 1000grit diamaond against it for a few seconds. I now have at most 0.005mm on the arbour face. Whole process took around 5mins.
The diamond sharpening stone/ plate also works great on the cast iron table and tracks.
To correct my run out I affixed sand paper to a blade stabilizer. I put it on the arbour and secured it to a board on the table. I turned on the saw and pressed the stabilizer into the arbour. The stabilizer approach ensures flatness and 90 degrees to the screw part of the arbour. I was inspired by Mathias.
I had the same issue with my old cast iron saw. I took out the arbour and tried your method, but eventually I gave up and had a machinist friend turn it true on the lathe.
I have the same problem with my delta. Might have to try this. Thanks.
Thank you!!! I have a Craftsman Pro tablesaw that has a .005" wobble in the blade. Now I have something new to check to get a fix.
So hilarious! I just came upstairs from my shop frustrated after just replacing my hardly used Freud blade with yet another new one on my Rigid cast iron table saw because of wobble. Opened up TH-cam and this video was staring me in the face. I'm going to give it a try.
How to figure out if it's a bent blade or arbor: measure the high spot, mark the arbor and blade with a sharpie. Loosen the nut and clock the blade 90deg and retighten. Did the wobble follow the blade or the arbor?
+Bean Mosheen Good idea. I'll give it a go.
I have a 50-year-old Rockwell delta that I restored it’s a great saw but I use this technique also and got decent results I just got through replacing the bearings in the motor and now except for the blade whirl you can barely hear it run I think I have about $30 invested in this good old saw.
Great practical demonstration!!
This might be irrelevant, but did you try cleaning the arbor after grinding it? By rubbing a wet paper towel against the arbor while spinning, you'll remove a surprising amount of leftover particles.
i really love watching your videos
you re so clever and innovative.
Great video, I'm going to try this as mine seems to wobble.
1:38 nice camera angle. You're getting artsy!
Love your Workshop. You make projects look so easy (y)
Matthias, can you talk about why certain types of blades work better for different types of wood. I know you mentioned your Freud blade with square cutting heads once, but I'm curious about the differences with blades designed to cut plywood versus solid wood. I don't know when I should be switching my blade.
+esotericsean
Not Matthias but since it's been a week, I thought I'd help you or anyone else interested out a little. Typically with blades, the less teeth there are and the bigger the gullets between them, the better they are for ripping(cutting with the grain). They cut faster, too.
A blade with a lot of teeth(like 60+) is used for crosscutting(cutting across the grain). The more teeth there are, the less tear-out you'll typically get. These types of blades are usually good with veneered plywood, too, since they excel with tear-out. The down side is they cut slower and can burn(there's also more teeth to sharpen when that time comes around).
Most people hate switching back and forth between a crosscutting blade and rip blade so they buy a combination blade. These blades are designed to combine aspects from both types of blades to get the best of both worlds from the same blade. They're not perfect but they're a nice compromise. I personally use a Freud Fusion blade and find it to be excellent with both crosscutting and ripping.
Beyond the type of blade, there's also the type of tooth grind on the blades. There's Flat grinds, Alternating Top Bevel, High ATB, Triple Chip Grind, etc. You can research those more if you like but just for a quick rundown you want a flat grind if you plan on doing things that need a flat bottom saw kerf like dadoes, splines, etc. TCG is used for harder materials like melamine, I think(never used them). ATB and High ATB are good for crosscutting since the high angles of the teeth score the wood fibers before they're scraped away by another tooth which results in less tear-out.
There's more to learn but that should give you a decent start. Most combination table saw blades use an ATB or High-ATB tooth grind. My Freud Fusion uses a High ATB and I really don't change my blade much at all. I'll use it for plywood, softwood, and hardwood. I typically only change if I'm doing a dado, rabbet, or spline(which needs the flat top).
Hope this helps. If I missed something or have something wrong, others can feel free to correct me.
I have a Bosch GTS 10 XC and it ripps oas like butter
Mattias did you ever think that maybe putting in some good quality bearings might make a difference? The 36-650 and 655 were actually made with cheap bearings. Also straightening the teeth of a tablesaw blade to less than 0.001 works wonders.
+Jacilynn S I'll wait for the bearings to get loud before I replace them. Not easy to get in and out!
Great video! I may try something this on my old Beaver table saw. Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it be better to set the blade to zero degrees, clamp the stone to the table saw fence, position the fence so the stone will just kiss the arbor, and then raise the spinning arbor to touch the stone? Seems better than finding heavy steel bars and moving the stone by hand. Any thoughts?
I have the same problem with my new saw so have built a new collor. now half fixed.
On a 1983 Sears contractors saw, I tried using a sharpening stone to dress out the .001" wobble on the arbor, but it didn't seem to take off enough material. That .001" wobble on the arbor turned into a .005" very visible wobble on the blade. I removed the arbor and asked a machinist to true it on his metal lathe. The blade now spins perfectly.
Good video Matthias. I'm a little surprised you didn't utilize your miter slot/miter gauge to jig a way of keeping the stone reliably squared to the face of the arbor surface. That, plus your big square stock steel pieces offering stability seems like a win ner.
I'm troubleshooting a recent saw issue after a tablesaw mishap that has left my saw cutting oddly. I'm looking at this to be the worst case scenario, when you had it at .0004" do you really think four ten-thousandths is out of spec? It seems a bit excessive to me. That's less than half of one thou, unless I somehow forgot how decimals work (quite possible). Anyway, I hope I don't have to go this route but thanks for showing me how!
Thanks for the video Matthias. Is there any reason this couldn't be attempted on the skilsaw worm drive table saw? Is it preferable to take the flange out of the saw to turn it on a lathe?
My Bosch 4100 may have a plastic base, but it doesn't wobble lol. Interesting video.
+Tony Castillo The bosch is not one of those really cheap ones I was referring to
+Matthias Wandel I have a old craftsman I got for 40 bucks. Do you think getting a lot of dust from the blade is caused by this situation?
+Matthias Wandel Hehe just messing with ya, my first one from Homedepot had blade alignment issues so it went back assembled on the gravity rise stand, replacement one was much better. They are known for motor issues after a while as well. Thinking back for the money I spent I probably could have purchased a much better saw. I think I did look at the delta at Homedepot, but read reviews it didn't do a dado stack. Keep up the good work and cool videos.
+Tony Castillo Very satisfied with the performance from my 4100 as well. It will produce glue-up ready rips all day long with a cheap Freud blade.
plastic shell on a metal base/chassis.
Hello Mathias! Could You explain or show the work mechanism of the delta circulator's ruler?
So jury rigging an angle grinder with a wood cutting blade is out?
Mathias! I just got an old saw like yours. But mine is missing the arbor nut. Can u tell me the arbor size and thread of this saw? I'm trying to locate a left thread acme or trapezoidal nut for mine.
Very nice work.
That was good. I'm impressed.
Excellent demo thanks for sharing
Nice... I'll have to check mine now. It seems to be cutting well... but now I want to see how far off or how true it is.
Thanks!
You will never have anything be completely run out free. A half a thou is excellent eccentricity, even from metal working standards and it there is no point trying to get better than that, especially for wood working. That is such a small amount of run out that you could very easily cause MORE run out by trying to make it better.
What sucks though is that 1 thou at the arbor is 15-20 at the teeth.
Matthias Try a Diablo blade. I did and am very happy with it. It runs true, smooth and cuts very smooth and easy. It is an 80 tooth thin kerf blade. For your box joints it is too thin but for everything else you will be satisfied.
I will not be buying any other brands in the future. Its expensive to be poor. In other words cheep crappy tools cost more in the long run.
If I carefully watch a thin kerf blade on even 1" oak... it appears to widen from vibration with feed pressure/movement. So the kerf widens and contracts with feed rate. Nice for low HP saws but my 3 HP unisaw never lacks power really. So I avoid thin kerfs.
i had a same problem after doing the arbor i done the teeth on the blade in a similar fashion...changing the bearings throughout then putting a very fine grit whetstone (i remember 3k on both sides of the blade at the same time and then putting fine grinding paste on a flat true hard metal on both sides and it came out very close to zero after of course balancing the blade to zero
Love your channel!!
Hi Matthias,
As always a great video- thanks.
I'm waiting patiently every week for a video from you.
You should really increase the frequency of your videos as there is great demand!!!
I would suggest to mark the high spots on the arbor with lines that extend all the way across the face, then draw a continuous band all along the outer face of the arbor where it will contact the blade. Lightly grinding at this point will show you where you are removing material with your setup vs where you want to remove it. Vibrations in the arbor when running will limit your ability to get it to be the desired conical shape.
As for why Delta or any saw maker can't hold tighter tolerance, manufacturers make products by specifying tolerance levels on the components they are made from, and only check a portion of them to verify that they are to spec. They cannot afford to expend as much time as you can to achieve close to perfect operation, as to do so they would be too costly for most of their customers.
Oh the irony! I was attempting the very same improvement to my Powermatic 66 when my Baldor 3 hp motor blew. Tripped the breakers, a puff of smoke and that was it. New Start and Run capacitors are not the fix, so I'll break it down and see if I can be as resourceful and pull a "Matthias" repair. Fingers crossed! I miss my saw.
So you don’t think tightening the screw behind the flange could to anything? I fing my arbour is turning around as I try to tighten the blade.should I even bother fixing the arbour or just dump it
never thought i'd say this in a wandel video but your solution was not complex enough ;)
if you use a grinding bit chucked in a spindle and lock that in a jig, you could true it up and use it to grind out that last little bump. preferable the jig wouldn't rely on you pushing it into the flange by hand, but rather using a magnetic base to secure the jig to the cast iron table and feeding the grinding stone with an adjustment screw.
Nice work.
Your so right my friend
Any experience with changing blades for the application ex: Ripping, Finger Joints, Bridal Joints, Raised Panels ?
Awesome video as usual Matthias! :D Keep up the good work!
I always learn a ton.
I think it is as close as you are going to get it, the problem may be in the bearings .0004 is better than the tolerances of your bearings.
may be you could locate some ABEC 7 or ABEC 9 ceramic bearings they would add the precision you are looking for.
then you need to think about balance and harmonics. great video keep them coming.
Forest blades are the best...bar none! You won't find a smoother cutting blade anywhere. Their dado blades are phenomenal!
I like them too. Stacked dado is nice except the buying/paying... Cry once then happy, happy.
I know you made this video a long time ago, but I'm hoping you can tell me what specific stone works best for grinding the arbor on a table saw. Thanks!
the coarsest one you have
Great video now I need to buy a dial indicator to see if it's the same issue I'm having with my r4512 hybrid.
+Roger Ramos
like Mathias said I too just don't want to take it out of its home and to have it replaced. Having to measure the fence against tge front and back of the blade is annoying as well. I'm planning on getting a better fence soon. it's really such a shame cause I like the fence other than the fact it won't stay square lol
+Art Connolly I have the R4512 and replacing that POS fence was the best thing I did. I replaced it with a cheap t-square fence, but it's still way better. I plan on making Jeremy Schmidt's fence some day which is worth checking out if you can weld.
Own a r4512 myself. Was fortunate it was true using a dial indicator straight from the box. I did replace the fence shortly after purchasing as the factory one is junk. My personal favorite is the Inca fence for accuracy and repeatability. Since its lead screw driven, even post movement the fence can be set to nearly the identical dimension easily. (no plug for them intended, just my personal experience )
Great!
great video. I think a have a arbor that I might just be able to fix now
Had you tried replacing the drive belt with one of those "linked V belts before your grinding process, and was there any noticeable difference ? They are marketed for noise reduction and vibration reduction.
Just curious as to whether they make any impact on difference at all.
Was the arbor flange perpendicular to it's arbor to begin with? Great job as always, thanks...
I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere and I know it's an old video. I'm new to wood working and need to upgrade from a table top model I bought for home renovations.
I was looking at the Delta models carried in the big box stores and wanted your thoughts on whether overall Delta's were worth getting? I'd like to avoid paying 100$ for shipping for a better model. The one I was considering would be the 725, another downside being stamped steel wings?
I don't know. I'd have to look at the particular saw
It's the 36-725
www.lowes.com/pd/DELTA-13-Amp-10-in-Table-Saw/50081568?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MiterAndTableSaws-_-50081568:DELTA&CAWELAID=&kpid=50081568&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1668&k_clickID=d3bc6bbd-e4b0-4f8f-a8e1-e746bc5d81c4
Seems like a cheaper version of the 5000. I'm right out of college and new to woodworking so I'm less worried about the power to chew through thick hardwood than getting the accuracy lacking in table top junk.
Recent reviews I've seen all seem good but it's always hard to tell if they're applicable and Delta seems to have a bad rap.
Good lighting
Thanks so much! This kind of video is very useful!
Matthias, what do you think of portable job site saws, I have a dewalt one that seems to work well.
+VTGoPro As long as they aren't the ones with a thin plastic base and stamped sheet metal internals, they are ok. But kind of loud.
+Coastal Virginia Gardening everything deflects when pushed. Even a 12" concrete foundation deflects when you walk on it. The dial gauge makes it seem like a bigger deal than it is.
Hey Matthias, have you ever made a perpetual motion device out of wood?
+Tortillian Wouldnt surprise me if he did
+Tortillian And if so, is it still moving? :-)
+Tortillian And if so, is it still moving? :-)
+kraklakvakve I believe the Suspended Double Wheel (or something like that, I forgot the name) might work if you smoothen it out as much as possible and then varnish the parts before assembly.
Does this issue apply also to the hand held circular saws? Hence how about the home made table saw that you built? It was a Makita circular saw if I remember correctly? Do these type of saws also tend to be inaccurate?
Also... I know you're not a big fan of mitre saws, but how about them? Thanks!
the arbour flange fits loosely on hand held circular saws, so this level of precision simply isn't possible.
Your jig sanding on the arbor looked very wobbly. Do you think some sort of jig to keep you perpendicular to the arbor may have helped slightly?
You used a different technique (moving saw up and down) with the 2nd more aggressive stone. I would think keeping arbor fixed, your 1st method, would have been better.
Still, As you mentioned half a thousandth is way better than the POS that Delta gave you, and quite possibly the best that saw can do. Nice video, thank you again!
I needed this, thanks for the information
As someone who woodworks, but is also a broke student and can only really do this hobby on the cheap, how would I make the most out of a cheap plastic base table-saw?
flatness of blade makes more difference. Then of course kerf of blades compensates some on cuts.
Nice fettle there. Not a good advert for Delta though. :)
Nice work. You could have ground the outer flange the same way you ground the arbor flange. Bolt the flange on the arbor in the reverse position to grind it. I am going to do this to my table saw but I am going to do both flanges with a convex grind like @boksbox suggested and I am going to flatten the grinding stone first.
there's no guarantee the flange will lie straight when you do that (no good reference surface) so you may end up grinding much more than necessary. The sandpaper is much better.
Matthias Wandel yes, that might be a problem. I am planning to check the run-out before I do any grinding. My Uni-saw is older and much more robust than yours and I am not anticipating much run-out or much deflection. Thanks for the ideas.
Thanks Matthias, two wobble related questions if you would:
1. Is there any point doing this with the arbor on your home made tablesaw v2? I know it'll never be as good as a cabinet saw, but could it be improved?
2. My drill press has some wobble too. I can't think how on earth I can get rid of it. Any advice?