My man West doesn’t get enough love. Was definitely one of my favorites and his ending really fucked me up. Loved his character, the hero we didn’t deserve!
Yes, I think that Collem has the most, let’s say, real life issues, which you are more likely to see in real life, than comparing to other characters. Honestly he only did a bad thing once, when he bit Ardee, which is awful, but I liked how he was really sorry about what he did and I can kinda say that the reason of his anger issues was that he was also a victim of abuse by his father when he was a child. What I also really liked about him is that, except for this situation with Ardee, he only did bad things to people who were in a higher position than him, which makes him kinda cool or brave at least. In contrast to Jezal, who could silently hate people in power, but was never courageous enough to do anything about it. West was also an incredible commander, Union won the war mostly thanks to him. And it’s really painful how he thought that this disease was a punishment he deserved for killing prince. I think he believed that his actions set this chain of events that led to Jezal on throne and leaving Ardee in vulnerable situation, though I don’t think he would really change that much, because Bayaz would find other ways to give crown to Jezal. And I’m also really really sad about how his friendship with Sand fucked up, though - again - it was not his fault. I wish Sand was more confident in his ability to make people feel better and visited Collem in his last days, I’m sure West would appreciate it. And I also felt sad that he didn’t get a happy love story (though I liked how Joe broke the trope that girl saved from rape ends up with the one who saves her). I just think that he could also be quite a good and loyal lover, if he solved his anger issues
I mean he was a hard worker and fairly smart but his constant complaining and beating ardee turned a majority of people against him. I think everyone felt bad for him at the end of the story though.
His and Burr’s story was for whatever reason the most compelling in the series. He was the most stand up dude in the series. Also the way he handled Kroy and Poulder in separate discussions in the tent was one of the coldest maneuvers ever 😅
This was Abercrombie's most deft touch. The fantasy genre is overloaded with the kindly wizard archetype reminiscent of Gandalf. To invert it was masterful, to have the dexterity to hide it until the end puts Abercrombie into some rarefied territory as a writer.
Ya I loved it. Like of course after being that powerful and knowledgeable for centuries and seeing the folly of man over and over he would be like ok I am dictator now. Alot of what he does is for the greater good but the more you learn about him the worse he seems.
@@Ryan6586 errr.... Bayaz's entire reason for creating and fostering the Union was to combat his rival and vanity. The guy has never done anything for anyone that wasn't completely self serving. Lol
A Joe Abercrombie quote about Logen that I really like is: "Logen is a man who's always looking for someone else to blame." Logen is an amazing character but he's far from a good person. Still love him tho lol. I also highly reccomend the three standalones. I personally enjoyed them more than the main trilogy.
SPOILERS........I’ve re read the books multiple times and Black Dow by far is the most misunderstood character and the more you reread or re-listen to the audiobooks you’ll find he’s one of the best characters. As to what you said about when you wanted him to die just remember he never acted on those things in any way. Was just BSing with The Dogman. And as to why he betrayed Logen, Logen killed Tul
Same, i felt that black Dow was just trying to uphold his reputation. In the north, a named man's reputation means everything, if people didn't fear black Dow, they wouldn't respect him.
No offense to Elliot, but I feel like she really didn't get this part. Logan is "morally gray," because, no matter how good of a person he is, he is insanely dangerous to be around. He's like a loaded gun with no safety. He could kill anyone at the drop of a hat, no matter how much he cares about them, because he could find himself out of control. That is not a quality you want in a ruler. Black Dow was angry about Tul, to be sure, but he also knew that Logan would make a terrible king.
Still a pretty messed up thing to joke about, which sucks because Black Dow is my fav and I love him aside from stuff like that lol. I can believe he'd say it just to play up a reputation though.
Galen White I thought Black Dow was the worst of the Northmen when I first started reading but by the end I’ve gone full circle on him. He was the only one who had the ‘bones’ to stand up and stop Logen, who, as much as I loved him, can snap and murder anybody and everybody in cold blood at the drop of a hat and absolutely could not be allowed to be a king. Not saying he’s a good guy by any stretch of the imagination but at least he drew a line where it needed to be drawn.
I feel like every main character's story arc was cyclical. Ferro ends up where she started, hungry for revenge. Logen ended up where he began, falling off a cliff. Glokta was still a man in power, just taking orders from someone else. Jezal had the most growth in where his character ended up imo, but he still just had no power to do anything.
I never noticed that, Ferros is a bit of an over simplification I feel, because she does end up killing the emperor and killing her way right through Gurkhul
Its a theme in both of the series he has in this world, and i fucking love it. i think for me that is what makes his characters feel so real. Logan strives to be a better man but has issues taking responsibility for the actions he has done, he constantly runs from the person he truly is and downplays the person he was.
I love the catchphrases in this book, they're like a running gag, SPOILERS especially Logan's "You gotta be realistic about these things." It's like a commentary on the fantasy genre itself.
I think the grim-dark aspect of First Law is not whether it ended badly for some or other character, but in the futility of the characters. As Abercrombie himself has stressed it, he wanted to show that no matter how hard you try, sometimes you just cannot change yourself or your circumstances. And it does not matther if that is because humans are deeply flawed creatures or because there is a god-like superhuman magician who controls everything. Abercrombie executed this theme to perfection imo and I just loved it.
***Spoilers*** To be fair to Glotka, it wasn't so much his idea to manipulate Terez by threatening her lover as it was Bayaz's. The First of the Magi made it very clear that the Union required a legitimate heir to the throne to secure the succession and stop anyone else pulling the same trick Bayaz himself had already used to manipulate who sits the throne. Glotka had little choice other than to do whatever it took to secure that outcome, since if he failed to do so Bayaz would have no problem having Glotka killed and replaced, or going after Ardi, Glotka's wife, in order to force Glotka's compliance. That is part of the irony of Glotka's character. By this point he is the head of the Inquisition, the most feared man in the Union and with a reputation for being the master manipulator and power behind the throne, but in truth he is merely a puppet himself, hopeless under Bayaz's thumb both through Bayaz's access to magic and through the economic power of the banking house of Valent and Baulk that Bayaz controls.
About Logen: I think the running theme with Abercrombie's characters is seeing the narrative they create in their own heads to make themselves the hero be exposed to cruel reality. In Logan's case this could probably have stood to be developed more strongly but it is there. His self-narrative is that he wants a quiet life but violence and bloodshed keep pulling him back in. The reality is that he can never escape because he loves it. He is excited to fight The Feared, he is described at one point as anticipating a fight as a starving man anticipates a meal. Bethod himself lays it out when he says that Logen was as much a driving force behind his conquests as he himself was. Ultimately, the lie that Logan tells himself that he can be a man of peace is never exposed quite as brutally as the fictions of Jezel and some of the later characters, but they are lies all the same.
Regarding the rate of healing: both ferro and Logen are super natural, so that probably explains how they heal so fast. In fact in the first book, bayaz even comments on how fast Logen heals and Logen says " i have a lot of practice"
It's hinted throughout that Logen isn't "normal". His name even hints at Wolverine... and if you grew up in the UK during the 80s you'd recognise a whole heaping of Slaine from 2000AD in there.
Logen, funnily enough is just a man, Joe has said his Bloody Nine is actually just a mental wall he puts up to suppress ever having to feel guilty about being a murderous piece of shit
@@zach1972 that's not true, joe has said that it's entirely up to the reader's interpretation what the bloody nine actually is. Supernatural or mental illness, it's purposefully never said.
For me the question and ”greyness” of Logens story is if he can be a good person despite being a berserker. It was a long time since I read the books but I seem to remember that in the first book the answer is yes. When he goes Bloody nine it serves the party/quest. In the second book he goes home he goes home and everyone wants the Bloody nine on their side but noone considers the price. He ends up killing friends, friends children etc and the answer is no, you can’t be a good person despite being a berserker. At least not in the north.
I also did not feel it was as grimdark as I had heard. For me, it was the humor in the series. The way Abercrombie writes would make me chuckle and I actually felt like it was a light hearted read at times.
The next in line is Best Served Cold which is standalone that has self contained story with some of the new characters but it also somewhat continues the story where the trilogy left off.
Spot on about the not worrying about the characters at the end. By the end I was like not even interested in any of the Logan battle sequences. As I was reading the fight with the feared I was kind of laughing because I thought of the line 'too tired to raise his arm, Logan took the mighty blow on his plot armor. The feared roared in pain and anger as Logan thought 'well, maybe you don't ALWAYS have to be realistic about things!'
I think this is another trilogy i should read, I raced through the Mistborn trilogy and Lord of the Rings trilogy earlier this year, There seems to be no disappointing trilogy (well Fifty Shades)
"...body found floating by the docks..." ~ Sand dan Glokta Abercrombie's use of inner dialogue, not just what the character is thinking - but actual ongoing inner discussions and repetitive ideas, is what makes these people come alive. I just finished the trilogy and have begun 'Best Served Cold' - audiobooks all, and absolutely delightful! Thanks for the review, it's given me much more to think about.
So I read the first book in actual paper-book form. It was good, I definitely planned to continue.. Then I happened to try Audible and decided to listen to the second book; this is the first series (and only since) that I recommend listening to *over* reading. Steven Pacey does such a fantastic job! The best performance I have ever heard, before or since. It really did improve these books for me. Years later I am still gushing over how good of a job he did.
Abercrombie is my favorite! The First Law world is amazing. You should read Best Served Cold, The Heroes, Red Country, and A Little Hatred. Best Served Cold is especially fantastic.
I giggled when you were talking about how the characters trick you into thinking that they will suddenly improve for the better. No Zuko-level redemption arks here, then!
Injuries can heal. I had a bone deep cut above my eye when I was mauled by a monkey as a child. And it took a long time to heal due to infection and stuff. But now it is a hardly noticeable scar on my brow. I believe Jezel's facial scar probably wasn't that bad, especially since Faro seem to be a competent surgeon.
I have some complicated feelings about this trilogy as a whole, but where I felt the most upset is *definitely* Ferro in book 3. She was handled so weirdly, imo, and felt like an afterthought almost.
The ambiguity to do with the magic totally adds to the feel of it in my opinion. Magic is a dying force in the world, and you as an observer don't have all, or indeed even many of the answers. I think it helps put you in the characters shoes.
Man, watching this after reading all the content that came after the trilogy, including the new trilogy, it seems almost like joe expected this sort of unfulfilled reaction on some level. He left the door open for himself. Mans playing chess. Great review. First one I ever found was the heroes at a book exchange, happened to be signed by the author. This universe is special to me.
I was an optimist til the very very end. I absolutely loved these books but in the end I felt empty and didn’t know what to think lol but I still need to know what happens next and I’m still optimistic there will be a happy ending....someday.....Ef the first of the magai...
In regard to Logens character being a good person, he most embodies that the blade itself incites to violence. His potential for violence by nature leads him to violence regardless of how he tries to turn the blade
I'm glad you managed to push on through and read the whole trilogy (I know you were a bit unsure after the first book). I must admit I loved the next three books in the series more than the original trilogy, and I enjoyed A Little Hatred too.
Logen is a very good person except for when hes in the north. Something about being there has a connection to the Bloody Nine. Remember what he says to White Eye Hansel in the High Places right before the battle started. ILL BE LOOKING FOR YOUR SONS, HANSEL!
I love Logen and i also used to think that although having a really mess up reputation he was one of the nicest persons in the books. Even when he said that in his youth he was a really hot headed individual or when Bethod hinted that it was because of him that they were in that situation, i still thought that he was a really nice guy…. and then i read that Bethod's short story and yeah, just saying that his reputation didn't came out of nowhere lol. He really is a morally gray character.
In my mind: Sand dan Glokta - Christopher Waltz, Jezal dan Luthar - Cary Elwes, The Dogman - Guy Pearce, Bremer dan Gorst - Brock Lesnar, Ferro Maljinn - Summer Glau, Collem West - Jason Statham, Nicomo Cosca - Benicio del Toro, Bayaz - Jon Voight, Logan Ninefingers - Scott Glenn
One thing I don't think people focus on enough is the humor and how fun these books are. So many reviews talk about how bleak they are without mentioning the humor, which is what makes the bleakness palatable. I also feel like more happens in the first book than people give it credit for. Maybe it's just because I read a lot of dense literary fiction, so my bar for "something happening" is lower than other people's.
you should read the next parts of the story: "best served cold" "The Heros" "Red Country". Get through them and you will be at a good point to read the new trilogy he released, the first book is out "A little hatred"
For the wounds not being glossed over a lot it's mostly cause they're travelling a lot between some scenes so there's weeks/months of healing between the time they get a wound and then we see them again all "ok".
I've only read the first book and I was on the fence about finishing the series. I really liked the moral greyness of the characters and I was afraid they were just going to be redeemed and lose what made them interesting. Based on your spoiler free section it sounds like that is not the case so I think I will go ahead and read the other two books at some point. Thanks!
Have to keep in mind that first law is Joe's first work as well. He gets even better with the standalones and now he's a master of his craft with A little Hatred. It's been fun to follow him and watch him grow as an author
I feel like more that it was more tragic than grim-dark. For the three main characters (Glokta, Logen and Jezal) you get to see that they could be/ a part of them are good people and it is tragic because in the end they never end up becoming these best versions of themselves
Crummock (however you spell it) really engineered everything. He gives them the idea that leads to Bethods defeat. He slips the Dogman the info that allows him to kill the witch and let Logan kill Fenris and Bethod. The whole time talking up "the Bloody Nine" to anyone who would listen. Then HE is the won who proclaims Logan king and gets everyone doing it. His plan to get rid of a unified North under Bethod and cause enough chaos to keep everyone busy but take everyone's attention from his people in the hills worked pretty well. Even his son dying gave him something to hang over Logans head and (maybe) keep him from involving the hill folk in anything. Doubt he planned the last part but as he says he has more sons.
Honestly I feel about the same as you with the ending; not quite what I wanted, but a great series all the same. This was one of the first trilogies I've read in a long time where I couldn't wait to get home to read. I also listened to the audiobooks which are phenomenal! Wasn't perfect, but I really, really enjoyed this series!
still conflicted about the ending, but consolidated love for the series. i laughed, i felt dread, i almost shed a tear for the weakest. it actually lived up to the hype for me (except for the ending, which i had heard lauded as nothing short of perfect... which maybe it is). Totally agree about shuffling the chapters at the end. So conflicted. I just finished a few days ago. I've thought about it everyday since. Say one thing about this series, say it's fucking awesome. Great video.
mubbles1066 yeah maybe, but I’ve got a soft spot for game of thrones, was the first fantasy novel I read where the characters seemed real to me. Not just good hero vs bad villain
Joe Wedg i mean ppl dont need to be morally gray to be considered “real”, for me the most real characters in terms of personality are the wot characters, they make stupid mistakes and are very, very flawd, and for me thats what i consider realistic characters
I disagree with the no bad or evil characters, SPOILERS Bayaz for example is almost comically evil, he killed both his teachers then killed his lover to cover it up, he risks the entire world and kills thousands of people in terrible ways just so he can keep being number 1, sacrifices his brothers for his own benefit, breaks both laws and says khalul needs to be killed for breaking one of them, and believes people are pawns that need to be manipulated.
Hi Ellie and fellow youtubers! First of all, I really enjoy your videos and hearing your point of view on various books you’ve read. Happily, I’ve discovered several books thanks to your channel. Keep up the great work! SPOILERS BELOW I finished reading the Last Argument of Kings today. I really enjoyed this trilogy, despite it being less plot and more character driven than I’m used to. My enjoyment, though, is testament to the characters themselves and how Abercrombie wrote them; I completely agree with you and your analysis on this. The exception for me was Ferro. I agree with you that her story was somewhat lacking and of the POV characters I found her by far the least interesting. Having now finished the books, in hindsight it’s clear that she was created as a tool, much like Quai and Crummock, for forwarding the plot, which I think this ties in with your comments on the magic and how things were sometimes “convenient”. She is also used to offer the reader perspective on Bayaz’s and Logen’s nature through her interactions and relationships with them; indeed, Bayaz treats her as the tool she appears to be, whilst, in Logen’s case, his relationship and feelings for her are used to give his character more depth and play into the good/bad dichotomy his character struggles with. Coming on to Logen, I think your conclusion is exactly what Abercrombie wanted; not to conclude he was ‘good’, ‘bad’ or otherwise in itself, simply that we as the reader would want to reach our own conclusion having been able to invest in the character. Logen’s self-doubt and ongoing struggle with self-acceptance is a running theme throughout the story, used by Abercrombie to have us relate to the character, and culminating in, if I remember correctly, Logen asking, I think, Dogman or Jezal (?) outright whether he thinks he’s a good or bad person. It’s an invitation for us to draw our own conclusion but I think more than the conclusion itself, it’s that we want to draw a conclusion is what Abercrombie was going for. Something, though, that did irk me about the story was an unresolved plot point regarding Ladisla’s death. In the scene where Bayaz reveals how he has manipulated events to Glokta he makes no mention of it. Bayaz couldn’t have known that West would murder the prince and, as such, I was wanting Bayaz to make reference to it to see what contingencies he had already had in place to ensure Ladisla would die; Bayaz clearly wasn’t the kind of bloke to just let things pan out as they may. Did I miss something? Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Should anyone make it this far, I just want to finally add that I too loved reading Glokta’s story and he, Jezal and Ardee ended up being my favourite characters. I agree with you; part of me thinks it would’ve been great to end the trilogy with that scene between Jezal and Glokta. That said, I thought ending the final book with lines from the first one to bookend (pun not intended) the trilogy worked well enough.
SPOILERS!! Yeah I thought Logen should’ve died as you said. I was also shocked that only Logen and West die in the end, but I didn’t mind as much I think. The trilogy is 5 stars for me, I just had a smile on my face the entire time reading the second half of the first book and the entire second and l last book.
I agree with Ferro feeling underdeveloped... but as much as I loved Logen I think you are very generous with him. The bloody-nine seems very much a part of him to me, and like you said he doesn’t even try that hard to overcome it, as the Dogman even says. Hell he even tries to bring it out when he needs it in spite of knowing how destructive it is. To me Logen kind of is the darkest part of the series, for two novels you see how good of a man he can be and then in the final instalment it really hammers home what a monster is really hiding within this “good” man.
JOE Abercrombie writes the best characters ive ever read. i agree with u when it comes to your review. only that the ending with byaz was amazing. really recommend all his books just because of the characters.Spoilers 11:30 There are some hints that Logan is fully aware and is the bloody nines alter ego, whether there is a part of him that can control the Bloody-Nine and he subconsciously chooses to unleash it or not. his personality switches to the truly ruthless version of himself. Partitioning his personality like this works for Logen, he gets to survive (still alive, still alive) but doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions. His mind shies away from the dreadful things he is capable of, and so - as a coping mechanism - his mind creates a second personality that can do these things. Unlike Logen, The Bloody Nine feels no fear, no pain, and has no conscience. Logen is largely aware of what The Bloody Nine does, and is ashamed of those acts, but not so much so that he'll apologise for them, even though internally he accepts responsibility for them. which makes him not the best person in the world
At first I thought Logen simply had a split personality. But now I'm convinced that he, like Ferro, is part demon. But other than her he isn't displaying superhuman traits while being himself (unless you consider quick healing - which is mentioned at least in the first book). Reminds me a bit of Naruto in fact. His demon part is seperate from him and only when it takes over he is stronger, faster ... and crazy.
I’m usually in agreement with what people consider great fantasy series, but this one just never did it for me. Glokta and his story is amazing, but other than him, I found myself not caring at all about the characters, world, plot, stakes, or the ending. It was just kind of meh to me, and I usually love dark characters and tone. But I loved Abercrombie’s writing so much that I will buy whatever he puts out.
What stood out for me the most, negatively speaking, was the way Glokta talked about pain but seems to never actually felt it. He sounds detached, not in a way people with trauma are, but as if it didn't happen to him or as if he's trying to act the pain. Simply saying ''i should've went mad with that much torture but didn't'' doesn't seem very convincing to me. He's doing all his wincing, trembling, flutters, spasms, cramps and gasps but it seems labeled. His mind didn't seem to get affected at all, he just kept on thinking sharply and carrying on with his life. It's difficult to describe, but it seems to me that someone who suffered as much as he did would be dealing with multiple traumas, depression and so many other problems for sure. Glotka sounds more like someone working at McDonalds with a leg injury.
@@ebnovels For someone who spent 2 years in a Gurkish dungeon, one would expect him to become vegetarian... He became a Chef, a Rôtisseur instead. hehe
I think the choice for the "Loose Ends" being the last chapter was for Logen to end up back where he was in the first chapter (and first sentence) of the book which is, I think, one of the themes of the book. Regardless, I think you made some extremely valid points. I think I would disagree with some of them, but that's mostly due to personal preference in the things I enjoy when reading a story. But as someone who also enjoys character-driven stories this is SO good. I think you should dive right into Best Served Cold next if you have the time because, IMO, it gets better from here (also JA's female characters are much more prominent moving forward).
I keep seeing people referring to "grimdark" and why this trilogy is or isn't "grimdark". That is the danger of labeling and categorizing books. I know people may favor a particular kind of story and use these sub-categories to help them find authors and books to try, but that is just it. It should be used as a very general guideline. You should never say "I liked the book but it wasn't grimdark enough or high fantasy enough." If you are glad you read it, and it wasn't "mislabeled" (I was looking for this wonderful coming of age to be a world saving hero story but instead I got everybody emitting bodily fluids, either through graphic sex or brutal slaughter) then the category system did its job. Guidlines shouldn't be that narrow. Ok, through with my rant, I really did enjoy the video.
The thing that makes Logen a bad person is that he always enables the Bloddy-Nine. He always makes bad choices, such as going back to the north, where he knows he’ll find nothing except war and blood. Who thrives in such conditions? The Bloody-Nine! Logen always blames everyone and everything except himself, even though he himself is the main problem. SPOILER FOR THE LAST BOOK: then you hear from Bethod how Logen was a driving force behind Bethod’s war and all that. Logen is not a good person. He’s loveable, but still a bad person. This is just my opinion of course!
Logen has to live in a world that the bloody nine leaves for him. Everyone who knows his name hates and fears him and he has to put up the front of constant threat and meanness there to have a chance of surviving. Leaving the north and going places no one knew him he had a chance to have a fresh start. His nasty behaviour really only comes back to the fore when he goes back to the north where he is known. This is shown again and re-emphasised in one of the stand alone.
Good review and honest assessment of the books. Interesting twist that Bayaz is actually a tyrant villain who's pulling the strings of power from the shadows. Like you, I felt a little dissatisfied with the open ending of Logan, and that there was no lasting effects from the injuries that character suffered. I've just started the fourth book in the series but from what I understand it doesn't have anything to do with our characters from the first law which is a little disappointing cuz I would really like to get some more of those characters. Mainly did Logan survive or not?
I read the first part of The Blade Itself before giving up - I thought it was dull, and was frustrated by the fact that there are almost no female characters involved (there is one and I thought she was poorly written). This is the second positive Booktube video I’ve seen about it though (the other was by Merphy Napier), so I should probably give it another go!
I honestly didn’t care for The Blade Itself for most of it, and only started liking it about halfway in. I really enjoyed the second book, and while I think his character work is really well done, I did find myself a bit disappointed with the ending of the trilogy. The character work is really some of the best I’ve seen, though, so for that alone, I’d say maybe give it another go. If you don’t find you like the second one, though, the third might not be to your liking. Hope that helps! 😊
I'm happy you made this video. For so long all I've heard about this series is that it's good and grimdark. I never really had a good idea of what it was about or who the characters were. I've been so hesitant to read grim dark. I have strong emotional reactions to books, so I've been worried that my sensitive little soul couldn't handle it. I think I'll read this trilogy though. I've been wanting to read some grey characters, because sometimes the good guys seem a little unrealistic. I need a little more variety.
The Bloody Nine is a truly bad man, running from his past. He kills all his friends, eventually. He has left many dead friends behind him (that he himself killed). He is trying very hard to be different. to be a better man. He is a better man until the work begins (the work being murders)and then he is a bloodthirsty monster. Even in the big fight at the end he kills one of his comrades.
my biggest issue with Abercrombie is that he writes such good books, that he has a problem with the endings, cause endings are supposed to be the climax, but Abercrombies stories are just good all the way through, makes it really hard to make something stand out that extra bit. His standalone novels in The Trillogy of Law universe are also really good.
With fiction anything can happen if it works for the reader. Classical Fantasy usually, more often than not has a big ending but modern fantasy doesnt always have to.
I love this kind of reviews with an in-depth spoilery discussion! I too didn't find the First Law trilogy as dark as I was expecting! I think that is mostly because of its tone: is so focused on the interactions and so funny that it almost reads like a sit-com. Every viewpoint has its particular sense of humor (even Ferro's!) and to me that is what makes the characters so enjoyable even when they are absolutely awful, like Jezal in the first book. The same story written by another pen would've been mindnumbingly boring and grim.
Along with a good story, you actually care about these guys and are interested to see what they do. They’re not just tropes or placeholders. Even glokta just wants to get to the truth and seems to hate corruption. And I certainly feel bad for what he went through.
Glokta is my 2nd favorite character and I loved every section of his story, but certainly do not think he is a good person. He’s still ruthless, still tortures people and causes untold amounts of misery. By the end of the series, I think only Jezal has actually become a better person. Glokta is just as bad, Ferro is just as bad, Logen is just as bad or possibly worse, Dogman is the same I suppose (he seems genuinely good, as far as warriors go) and Bayaz is revealed to be the true villain
I feel a central idea or theme is pointlessness and futulity, like in each battle, before the last, its made out that these battes is made out to be pointless. Largely after the entire book, we all end up in the same position, with all the characters needs unfulfilled - logan defeats his enemies is alone, Glokta got his answers, but ended up still taking orders and ferro still wants revenge. I feel death of the main four characters wouldnt have been as impactful to this arc.
You have to be realistic. Logan struggles to reconcile his desire to be better man with the type of monster you'd need to be in order to 10 challenges in the circle. He led the nastiest group of baddies for 10 years, so I'd say he developed his leadership skills very well. It lead Jazal to call him the best person he'd ever met because he was in a completely different setting and didn't need to try to live up to a certain reputation.
Yes, Logen was good in BTaH. In the North, he was terrible. He could’ve turned around but he didn’t. Finished the trilogy 2 days ago, and have been discussing whether he is good or evil in book 3. Jezal said he is the best man he knew, but he is evil to the North. He forced them into a battle not theirs. He is very rude and abusive and feels the need to be his reputation as Logen Ninefingers, the Bloody Nine.
there are a crazy amount of head injuries in this series, that all heal within pages. A common misrepresentation across media. I worked in brain injury rehab for a long time, and it doesn't happen like that. Awesome series though.
should i read the first law trilogy i wanna get into fantasy ived loved harry potters lord of the rings, game of thrones. ive mostly read horror though
Yeah I agree, it’s really not as grimdark as people make out, there’s a fair amount of humour and is still a good fun read. Personally where the phrase grimdark comes from is way more apt, especially the first Horus heresy book in the warhammer 40k universe. It’s all just treachery and violence and bleakness, still amazing though!
Joe makes great characters. I love the books in the rest of the first law world even more than the first law books. Shivers and the bloody nine are too too cool
It's weird that Crummock was the first one to announce Logen as king now that we know he knew that Logen had killed his kid. He announces him as king of the Northmen than says he can be their king but not his king and threatens to kill him if he sees him again.
Rejoice! Spoilers ahead: I love this series so much primarily because of how the magic is treated. I can buy a grounded story that treats magic more as an ambiguous “faith” based thing rather than a systematic pseudoscience. As a non-religious person, it’s more engrossing for me to buy it as supernatural and beyond direct understanding or control rather than formulaic. It’s why I tend towards ASOIAF as well. I concur strongly with GRRM’s statements on magic. Also, if magic is to be believed as controllable by characters, it makes those characters “gods”, and this is where Abercrombie was genius imo. He used his fantasy world to ask the questions “What would happen if a petty human being had the ability to ascend to god status, what kind of god would they be?” And in the end he draws into question the existence of free will itself essentially. And I loved the Union controlled clandestinely by money and Bayaz while his rival Khalul controlled his pawns overtly through religion. “MESSAGE” lol. In the end, all the characters in this world have to waste their lives playing someone else’s game, mostly unknowing of their futility. I’m a big fan of simulation theory, so this was awesome imo. I really want to go on and on about details you mentioned but I’ll restrain myself. I agree with you it’s not as “grimdark” as people expect. I really hope you continue the series and I’d love to hear your take on Best Served Cold. Also, check out the short story “Made a Monster”, it gives a different look at Logen pre-trilogy.
I actually think that it's grim dark because of the themes as opposed to the scenes. Sure... No one major dies (besides furious rip.) but the overall themes of lack of freedom, futile lives, purposelessness and how you can ascend to king only to revert back to being on the run in a matter of moments. How we are all victims of our own choices but also of the choices and whims of those up above us is pretty damn bleek. I am eternally grateful to abercrombie for this because he created a darkness our of conscience instead of brutality and shock.
@@SonOfSeth I completely agree! It doesn't rely on shock it's horrors aren't in your face they're just more real. Personally he's the best grimdark I've read yet!
@@fayealexandria9036 This quote really sums it up nicely for me. It's from Red Country, but I think applies to the world of First Law as a whole. “Evil turned out not to be a grand thing. Not sneering Emperors with their world-conquering designs. Not cackling demons plotting in the darkness beyond the world. It was small men with their small acts and their small reasons. It was selfishness and carelessness and waste. It was bad luck, incompetence, and stupidity. It was violence divorced from conscience or consequence. It was high ideals, even, and low methods.”
Late to watching the video but I just finished the series myself. I get what you mean about wanting the chapters to be swapped around at the end, but I think Abercrombie was really pushing the "life moves in a circle" theme by ending glokta and logens stories how they began in the first book.
Suppose I tended to like Logens story and ending a bit more than you did. He definitely seemed to be a good person himself but his past deeds came back to haunt him. The north used him to win, but ultimately couldn't see themselves under his rule. Crannoch(sp) understood what Logen did for them to get the victory, but also wouldnt forgive Logen. for what he did. And dow saw an opportunity for himself and jumped. Just like he wouldnt follow thunderhead, he would not follow Logen.
Love these book, I devoured them really. The ending is ok i guess for the most part. I was hoping the last words of the book would have been: "Still Alive..."
I disagree on the bleakness of the ending. There are fates much worse than death, and therefore I also don't think taking death off the table removes consequences.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Nice, grounded review. You have to be realistic about these things.
A man lost in the desert must accept such water as he is offered regardless of the source...
My man West doesn’t get enough love. Was definitely one of my favorites and his ending really fucked me up. Loved his character, the hero we didn’t deserve!
Yes, I think that Collem has the most, let’s say, real life issues, which you are more likely to see in real life, than comparing to other characters. Honestly he only did a bad thing once, when he bit Ardee, which is awful, but I liked how he was really sorry about what he did and I can kinda say that the reason of his anger issues was that he was also a victim of abuse by his father when he was a child. What I also really liked about him is that, except for this situation with Ardee, he only did bad things to people who were in a higher position than him, which makes him kinda cool or brave at least. In contrast to Jezal, who could silently hate people in power, but was never courageous enough to do anything about it. West was also an incredible commander, Union won the war mostly thanks to him. And it’s really painful how he thought that this disease was a punishment he deserved for killing prince. I think he believed that his actions set this chain of events that led to Jezal on throne and leaving Ardee in vulnerable situation, though I don’t think he would really change that much, because Bayaz would find other ways to give crown to Jezal. And I’m also really really sad about how his friendship with Sand fucked up, though - again - it was not his fault. I wish Sand was more confident in his ability to make people feel better and visited Collem in his last days, I’m sure West would appreciate it. And I also felt sad that he didn’t get a happy love story (though I liked how Joe broke the trope that girl saved from rape ends up with the one who saves her). I just think that he could also be quite a good and loyal lover, if he solved his anger issues
I mean he was a hard worker and fairly smart but his constant complaining and beating ardee turned a majority of people against him. I think everyone felt bad for him at the end of the story though.
@@paragon1782 compared to Jezal, he did not complain that much 😂
@@anastasialiulina8819 ha, true
His and Burr’s story was for whatever reason the most compelling in the series. He was the most stand up dude in the series. Also the way he handled Kroy and Poulder in separate discussions in the tent was one of the coldest maneuvers ever 😅
I love the trope switch on the kindly, old wizard. Bayaz is such a cool character.
This was Abercrombie's most deft touch. The fantasy genre is overloaded with the kindly wizard archetype reminiscent of Gandalf. To invert it was masterful, to have the dexterity to hide it until the end puts Abercrombie into some rarefied territory as a writer.
"more first of the bankers than first of the magi"
Ya I loved it. Like of course after being that powerful and knowledgeable for centuries and seeing the folly of man over and over he would be like ok I am dictator now.
Alot of what he does is for the greater good but the more you learn about him the worse he seems.
@@Ryan6586 errr.... Bayaz's entire reason for creating and fostering the Union was to combat his rival and vanity. The guy has never done anything for anyone that wasn't completely self serving. Lol
I pretty much like him before he killed Yulwei , he's a huge asshole
A Joe Abercrombie quote about Logen that I really like is: "Logen is a man who's always looking for someone else to blame." Logen is an amazing character but he's far from a good person. Still love him tho lol. I also highly reccomend the three standalones. I personally enjoyed them more than the main trilogy.
SPOILERS........I’ve re read the books multiple times and Black Dow by far is the most misunderstood character and the more you reread or re-listen to the audiobooks you’ll find he’s one of the best characters. As to what you said about when you wanted him to die just remember he never acted on those things in any way. Was just BSing with The Dogman. And as to why he betrayed Logen, Logen killed Tul
Spoiler tag
Same, i felt that black Dow was just trying to uphold his reputation. In the north, a named man's reputation means everything, if people didn't fear black Dow, they wouldn't respect him.
No offense to Elliot, but I feel like she really didn't get this part. Logan is "morally gray," because, no matter how good of a person he is, he is insanely dangerous to be around. He's like a loaded gun with no safety. He could kill anyone at the drop of a hat, no matter how much he cares about them, because he could find himself out of control. That is not a quality you want in a ruler. Black Dow was angry about Tul, to be sure, but he also knew that Logan would make a terrible king.
Still a pretty messed up thing to joke about, which sucks because Black Dow is my fav and I love him aside from stuff like that lol. I can believe he'd say it just to play up a reputation though.
Galen White I thought Black Dow was the worst of the Northmen when I first started reading but by the end I’ve gone full circle on him.
He was the only one who had the ‘bones’ to stand up and stop Logen, who, as much as I loved him, can snap and murder anybody and everybody in cold blood at the drop of a hat and absolutely could not be allowed to be a king.
Not saying he’s a good guy by any stretch of the imagination but at least he drew a line where it needed to be drawn.
You should read bethod's short story in "Sharp Ends" it will show logen in a completely different light.
His horrible reputation is kind of earned imo
I feel like every main character's story arc was cyclical. Ferro ends up where she started, hungry for revenge. Logen ended up where he began, falling off a cliff. Glokta was still a man in power, just taking orders from someone else. Jezal had the most growth in where his character ended up imo, but he still just had no power to do anything.
Wow good catch on that!
I never noticed that, Ferros is a bit of an over simplification I feel, because she does end up killing the emperor and killing her way right through Gurkhul
yea this is the books are more grimdark for me than something with violence or dark themes
Felt so bad that Jezal cannot live with Adree.
Its a theme in both of the series he has in this world, and i fucking love it. i think for me that is what makes his characters feel so real. Logan strives to be a better man but has issues taking responsibility for the actions he has done, he constantly runs from the person he truly is and downplays the person he was.
I love the catchphrases in this book, they're like a running gag,
SPOILERS
especially Logan's "You gotta be realistic about these things." It's like a commentary on the fantasy genre itself.
Also when he ends on "I never was that realistic" ❤️
Say on thing about First Law, say it’s quotable.
@@yourfbiagent6483 why do I do this?
Found floating at the docks
@@samuelmattox7875 Body found floating by the docks . . .
Spoilers!!!
West becoming lord marshal and playing poulder and kroy was literally one of my favourite scenes in the whole series!!!
Poulder & Kroy. Hilarious indeed.
And them turning around to respect greatly this commoner. Just awesome.
I think the grim-dark aspect of First Law is not whether it ended badly for some or other character, but in the futility of the characters. As Abercrombie himself has stressed it, he wanted to show that no matter how hard you try, sometimes you just cannot change yourself or your circumstances. And it does not matther if that is because humans are deeply flawed creatures or because there is a god-like superhuman magician who controls everything. Abercrombie executed this theme to perfection imo and I just loved it.
***Spoilers*** To be fair to Glotka, it wasn't so much his idea to manipulate Terez by threatening her lover as it was Bayaz's. The First of the Magi made it very clear that the Union required a legitimate heir to the throne to secure the succession and stop anyone else pulling the same trick Bayaz himself had already used to manipulate who sits the throne. Glotka had little choice other than to do whatever it took to secure that outcome, since if he failed to do so Bayaz would have no problem having Glotka killed and replaced, or going after Ardi, Glotka's wife, in order to force Glotka's compliance. That is part of the irony of Glotka's character. By this point he is the head of the Inquisition, the most feared man in the Union and with a reputation for being the master manipulator and power behind the throne, but in truth he is merely a puppet himself, hopeless under Bayaz's thumb both through Bayaz's access to magic and through the economic power of the banking house of Valent and Baulk that Bayaz controls.
About Logen:
I think the running theme with Abercrombie's characters is seeing the narrative they create in their own heads to make themselves the hero be exposed to cruel reality. In Logan's case this could probably have stood to be developed more strongly but it is there. His self-narrative is that he wants a quiet life but violence and bloodshed keep pulling him back in. The reality is that he can never escape because he loves it. He is excited to fight The Feared, he is described at one point as anticipating a fight as a starving man anticipates a meal. Bethod himself lays it out when he says that Logen was as much a driving force behind his conquests as he himself was. Ultimately, the lie that Logan tells himself that he can be a man of peace is never exposed quite as brutally as the fictions of Jezel and some of the later characters, but they are lies all the same.
Regarding the rate of healing: both ferro and Logen are super natural, so that probably explains how they heal so fast.
In fact in the first book, bayaz even comments on how fast Logen heals and Logen says " i have a lot of practice"
It's hinted throughout that Logen isn't "normal". His name even hints at Wolverine... and if you grew up in the UK during the 80s you'd recognise a whole heaping of Slaine from 2000AD in there.
Logen, funnily enough is just a man, Joe has said his Bloody Nine is actually just a mental wall he puts up to suppress ever having to feel guilty about being a murderous piece of shit
@@zach1972 that's not true, joe has said that it's entirely up to the reader's interpretation what the bloody nine actually is. Supernatural or mental illness, it's purposefully never said.
Also he is a guy who can talk to spirits. I think that either requires a certain degree of madness or connection to the other side.
I would’ve chalked it up to the fact that he’s been injured a lot, hence a lot of practice recovering in a figurative sense.
There are 3 more books in the series that finish out some of the characters stories. Next up is Best Served Cold, The Heroes, and finally Red Country.
For me the question and ”greyness” of Logens story is if he can be a good person despite being a berserker. It was a long time since I read the books but I seem to remember that in the first book the answer is yes. When he goes Bloody nine it serves the party/quest. In the second book he goes home he goes home and everyone wants the Bloody nine on their side but noone considers the price.
He ends up killing friends, friends children etc and the answer is no, you can’t be a good person despite being a berserker. At least not in the north.
I also did not feel it was as grimdark as I had heard. For me, it was the humor in the series. The way Abercrombie writes would make me chuckle and I actually felt like it was a light hearted read at times.
The next in line is Best Served Cold which is standalone that has self contained story with some of the new characters but it also somewhat continues the story where the trilogy left off.
Spot on about the not worrying about the characters at the end. By the end I was like not even interested in any of the Logan battle sequences. As I was reading the fight with the feared I was kind of laughing because I thought of the line 'too tired to raise his arm, Logan took the mighty blow on his plot armor. The feared roared in pain and anger as Logan thought 'well, maybe you don't ALWAYS have to be realistic about things!'
I think this is another trilogy i should read, I raced through the Mistborn trilogy and Lord of the Rings trilogy earlier this year, There seems to be no disappointing trilogy (well Fifty Shades)
"...body found floating by the docks..."
~ Sand dan Glokta
Abercrombie's use of inner dialogue, not just what the character is thinking - but actual ongoing inner discussions and repetitive ideas, is what makes these people come alive.
I just finished the trilogy and have begun 'Best Served Cold' - audiobooks all, and absolutely delightful!
Thanks for the review, it's given me much more to think about.
So I read the first book in actual paper-book form. It was good, I definitely planned to continue..
Then I happened to try Audible and decided to listen to the second book; this is the first series (and only since) that I recommend listening to *over* reading. Steven Pacey does such a fantastic job! The best performance I have ever heard, before or since. It really did improve these books for me. Years later I am still gushing over how good of a job he did.
Abercrombie is my favorite! The First Law world is amazing. You should read Best Served Cold, The Heroes, Red Country, and A Little Hatred. Best Served Cold is especially fantastic.
I’ve heard they’re great 😄 Hopefully I can pick them up next year :)
Loved all his books...A Little Hatred didn't do anything for me
Best Served Cold is amazing.
I giggled when you were talking about how the characters trick you into thinking that they will suddenly improve for the better. No Zuko-level redemption arks here, then!
Lana Sídhe I suppose they have no honour to chase after 🤷🏾♀️
This is one of my all time favorite fantasy series!! The characters are so engrossing. Someone really needs to make a TV show of this!!
Great review!!
Injuries can heal. I had a bone deep cut above my eye when I was mauled by a monkey as a child. And it took a long time to heal due to infection and stuff. But now it is a hardly noticeable scar on my brow. I believe Jezel's facial scar probably wasn't that bad, especially since Faro seem to be a competent surgeon.
I have some complicated feelings about this trilogy as a whole, but where I felt the most upset is *definitely* Ferro in book 3. She was handled so weirdly, imo, and felt like an afterthought almost.
Yes, she literally just exit stage left.
I felt it was realistic. She’s an exceptionally traumatized person. She can’t change.
For real like wtf
The ambiguity to do with the magic totally adds to the feel of it in my opinion. Magic is a dying force in the world, and you as an observer don't have all, or indeed even many of the answers. I think it helps put you in the characters shoes.
Man, watching this after reading all the content that came after the trilogy, including the new trilogy, it seems almost like joe expected this sort of unfulfilled reaction on some level. He left the door open for himself. Mans playing chess. Great review. First one I ever found was the heroes at a book exchange, happened to be signed by the author. This universe is special to me.
I was really impressed how things happened in the third book. And my attitude turned backwards for some characters. Especially for Bayaz.
I was an optimist til the very very end. I absolutely loved these books but in the end I felt empty and didn’t know what to think lol but I still need to know what happens next and I’m still optimistic there will be a happy ending....someday.....Ef the first of the magai...
In regard to Logens character being a good person, he most embodies that the blade itself incites to violence. His potential for violence by nature leads him to violence regardless of how he tries to turn the blade
I'm glad you managed to push on through and read the whole trilogy (I know you were a bit unsure after the first book). I must admit I loved the next three books in the series more than the original trilogy, and I enjoyed A Little Hatred too.
I’ve heard the short stories are even better! I’m excited to eventually get around to them 😄
Logen is a very good person except for when hes in the north. Something about being there has a connection to the Bloody Nine. Remember what he says to White Eye Hansel in the High Places right before the battle started.
ILL BE LOOKING FOR YOUR SONS, HANSEL!
I love Logen and i also used to think that although having a really mess up reputation he was one of the nicest persons in the books. Even when he said that in his youth he was a really hot headed individual or when Bethod hinted that it was because of him that they were in that situation, i still thought that he was a really nice guy…. and then i read that Bethod's short story and yeah, just saying that his reputation didn't came out of nowhere lol. He really is a morally gray character.
Made me laugh when u said Glokta was a good person deep down
Spoiler if you haven't read the 3rd book but
What he does for Ardee was very sweet lol
@@micah7492 true. But to be fair I think he got the good side of that deal. Lol
Loved this series and felt exactly the same as you about the ending. Great review!
What a coincidence I just started reading The Blade Itself today lol
Hope you like it 😊
Have fun
Nusaybah C me too girl 🤓🤓
I agree, many of the character arcs didn't hit home like I would of hoped, there was too much ambiguity as well.
In my mind: Sand dan Glokta - Christopher Waltz, Jezal dan Luthar - Cary Elwes, The Dogman - Guy Pearce, Bremer dan Gorst - Brock Lesnar, Ferro Maljinn - Summer Glau, Collem West - Jason Statham, Nicomo Cosca - Benicio del Toro, Bayaz - Jon Voight, Logan Ninefingers - Scott Glenn
One thing I don't think people focus on enough is the humor and how fun these books are. So many reviews talk about how bleak they are without mentioning the humor, which is what makes the bleakness palatable. I also feel like more happens in the first book than people give it credit for. Maybe it's just because I read a lot of dense literary fiction, so my bar for "something happening" is lower than other people's.
you should read the next parts of the story: "best served cold" "The Heros" "Red Country". Get through them and you will be at a good point to read the new trilogy he released, the first book is out "A little hatred"
Should read Sharp Ends before A Little Hatred too.
For the wounds not being glossed over a lot it's mostly cause they're travelling a lot between some scenes so there's weeks/months of healing between the time they get a wound and then we see them again all "ok".
I've only read the first book and I was on the fence about finishing the series. I really liked the moral greyness of the characters and I was afraid they were just going to be redeemed and lose what made them interesting. Based on your spoiler free section it sounds like that is not the case so I think I will go ahead and read the other two books at some point. Thanks!
Have to keep in mind that first law is Joe's first work as well. He gets even better with the standalones and now he's a master of his craft with A little Hatred. It's been fun to follow him and watch him grow as an author
I feel like more that it was more tragic than grim-dark. For the three main characters (Glokta, Logen and Jezal) you get to see that they could be/ a part of them are good people and it is tragic because in the end they never end up becoming these best versions of themselves
I got this series recently, and i cant wait to read it, it just sounds so good and like something i would really enjoy
I really enjoyed your review 😊
Thank you! I hope you enjoy the series :)
Crummock (however you spell it) really engineered everything. He gives them the idea that leads to Bethods defeat. He slips the Dogman the info that allows him to kill the witch and let Logan kill Fenris and Bethod. The whole time talking up "the Bloody Nine" to anyone who would listen. Then HE is the won who proclaims Logan king and gets everyone doing it. His plan to get rid of a unified North under Bethod and cause enough chaos to keep everyone busy but take everyone's attention from his people in the hills worked pretty well. Even his son dying gave him something to hang over Logans head and (maybe) keep him from involving the hill folk in anything. Doubt he planned the last part but as he says he has more sons.
I just got your book, peace and turmoil, in the mail yesterday and I’m starting it today! So excited to read it!💗
Oh yay! I hope you enjoy it!!! 💜💜💜
One of my favorite series. Great review.
Honestly I feel about the same as you with the ending; not quite what I wanted, but a great series all the same. This was one of the first trilogies I've read in a long time where I couldn't wait to get home to read. I also listened to the audiobooks which are phenomenal! Wasn't perfect, but I really, really enjoyed this series!
still conflicted about the ending, but consolidated love for the series. i laughed, i felt dread, i almost shed a tear for the weakest. it actually lived up to the hype for me (except for the ending, which i had heard lauded as nothing short of perfect... which maybe it is). Totally agree about shuffling the chapters at the end. So conflicted. I just finished a few days ago. I've thought about it everyday since. Say one thing about this series, say it's fucking awesome. Great video.
These books are great. No one is just good or bad, they inhabit the grey areas, like real life. Close to game of thrones levels
Close to Game of Thrones, really??? 🤔🤔🤔😱
Joe Wedg I’d say far superior to GoT...plus the fact Abercrombie actually bothers to finish books
mubbles1066 yeah maybe, but I’ve got a soft spot for game of thrones, was the first fantasy novel I read where the characters seemed real to me. Not just good hero vs bad villain
Joe Wedg i mean ppl dont need to be morally gray to be considered “real”, for me the most real characters in terms of personality are the wot characters, they make stupid mistakes and are very, very flawd, and for me thats what i consider realistic characters
I disagree with the no bad or evil characters, SPOILERS
Bayaz for example is almost comically evil, he killed both his teachers then killed his lover to cover it up, he risks the entire world and kills thousands of people in terrible ways just so he can keep being number 1, sacrifices his brothers for his own benefit, breaks both laws and says khalul needs to be killed for breaking one of them, and believes people are pawns that need to be manipulated.
Loved how you're just really sincere in your review!
Not everything has to fit perfectly and happen as anticipated. I like the fact that it has edges.
Hi Ellie and fellow youtubers!
First of all, I really enjoy your videos and hearing your point of view on various books you’ve read. Happily, I’ve discovered several books thanks to your channel. Keep up the great work!
SPOILERS BELOW
I finished reading the Last Argument of Kings today. I really enjoyed this trilogy, despite it being less plot and more character driven than I’m used to. My enjoyment, though, is testament to the characters themselves and how Abercrombie wrote them; I completely agree with you and your analysis on this.
The exception for me was Ferro. I agree with you that her story was somewhat lacking and of the POV characters I found her by far the least interesting. Having now finished the books, in hindsight it’s clear that she was created as a tool, much like Quai and Crummock, for forwarding the plot, which I think this ties in with your comments on the magic and how things were sometimes “convenient”. She is also used to offer the reader perspective on Bayaz’s and Logen’s nature through her interactions and relationships with them; indeed, Bayaz treats her as the tool she appears to be, whilst, in Logen’s case, his relationship and feelings for her are used to give his character more depth and play into the good/bad dichotomy his character struggles with.
Coming on to Logen, I think your conclusion is exactly what Abercrombie wanted; not to conclude he was ‘good’, ‘bad’ or otherwise in itself, simply that we as the reader would want to reach our own conclusion having been able to invest in the character. Logen’s self-doubt and ongoing struggle with self-acceptance is a running theme throughout the story, used by Abercrombie to have us relate to the character, and culminating in, if I remember correctly, Logen asking, I think, Dogman or Jezal (?) outright whether he thinks he’s a good or bad person. It’s an invitation for us to draw our own conclusion but I think more than the conclusion itself, it’s that we want to draw a conclusion is what Abercrombie was going for.
Something, though, that did irk me about the story was an unresolved plot point regarding Ladisla’s death. In the scene where Bayaz reveals how he has manipulated events to Glokta he makes no mention of it. Bayaz couldn’t have known that West would murder the prince and, as such, I was wanting Bayaz to make reference to it to see what contingencies he had already had in place to ensure Ladisla would die; Bayaz clearly wasn’t the kind of bloke to just let things pan out as they may. Did I miss something? Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Should anyone make it this far, I just want to finally add that I too loved reading Glokta’s story and he, Jezal and Ardee ended up being my favourite characters. I agree with you; part of me thinks it would’ve been great to end the trilogy with that scene between Jezal and Glokta. That said, I thought ending the final book with lines from the first one to bookend (pun not intended) the trilogy worked well enough.
Interesting point regarding Ladisla! I’m sure Bayaz would find a way to kill him
SPOILERS!!
Yeah I thought Logen should’ve died as you said. I was also shocked that only Logen and West die in the end, but I didn’t mind as much I think. The trilogy is 5 stars for me, I just had a smile on my face the entire time reading the second half of the first book and the entire second and l last book.
I agree with Ferro feeling underdeveloped... but as much as I loved Logen I think you are very generous with him. The bloody-nine seems very much a part of him to me, and like you said he doesn’t even try that hard to overcome it, as the Dogman even says. Hell he even tries to bring it out when he needs it in spite of knowing how destructive it is.
To me Logen kind of is the darkest part of the series, for two novels you see how good of a man he can be and then in the final instalment it really hammers home what a monster is really hiding within this “good” man.
JOE Abercrombie writes the best characters ive ever read. i agree with u when it comes to your review. only that the ending with byaz was amazing. really recommend all his books just because of the characters.Spoilers 11:30
There are some hints that Logan is fully aware and is the bloody nines alter ego, whether there is a part of him that can control the Bloody-Nine and he subconsciously chooses to unleash it or not. his personality switches to the truly ruthless version of himself. Partitioning his personality like this works for Logen, he gets to survive (still alive, still alive) but doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions. His mind shies away from the dreadful things he is capable of, and so - as a coping mechanism - his mind creates a second personality that can do these things. Unlike Logen, The Bloody Nine feels no fear, no pain, and has no conscience. Logen is largely aware of what The Bloody Nine does, and is ashamed of those acts, but not so much so that he'll apologise for them, even though internally he accepts responsibility for them. which makes him not the best person in the world
At first I thought Logen simply had a split personality. But now I'm convinced that he, like Ferro, is part demon. But other than her he isn't displaying superhuman traits while being himself (unless you consider quick healing - which is mentioned at least in the first book). Reminds me a bit of Naruto in fact. His demon part is seperate from him and only when it takes over he is stronger, faster ... and crazy.
wow, you finished the last 2 fast. awesome!
I’m usually in agreement with what people consider great fantasy series, but this one just never did it for me. Glokta and his story is amazing, but other than him, I found myself not caring at all about the characters, world, plot, stakes, or the ending. It was just kind of meh to me, and I usually love dark characters and tone.
But I loved Abercrombie’s writing so much that I will buy whatever he puts out.
This series was such a great recommendation, Elliot!
What stood out for me the most, negatively speaking, was the way Glokta talked about pain but seems to never actually felt it. He sounds detached, not in a way people with trauma are, but as if it didn't happen to him or as if he's trying to act the pain. Simply saying ''i should've went mad with that much torture but didn't'' doesn't seem very convincing to me.
He's doing all his wincing, trembling, flutters, spasms, cramps and gasps but it seems labeled. His mind didn't seem to get affected at all, he just kept on thinking sharply and carrying on with his life.
It's difficult to describe, but it seems to me that someone who suffered as much as he did would be dealing with multiple traumas, depression and so many other problems for sure. Glotka sounds more like someone working at McDonalds with a leg injury.
Hahaha, I’m not sure how I personally would’ve written Glokta, but I love that he sounds like he works fast food to you 😂
@@ebnovels For someone who spent 2 years in a Gurkish dungeon, one would expect him to become vegetarian... He became a Chef, a Rôtisseur instead. hehe
I think the choice for the "Loose Ends" being the last chapter was for Logen to end up back where he was in the first chapter (and first sentence) of the book which is, I think, one of the themes of the book. Regardless, I think you made some extremely valid points. I think I would disagree with some of them, but that's mostly due to personal preference in the things I enjoy when reading a story. But as someone who also enjoys character-driven stories this is SO good. I think you should dive right into Best Served Cold next if you have the time because, IMO, it gets better from here (also JA's female characters are much more prominent moving forward).
I keep seeing people referring to "grimdark" and why this trilogy is or isn't "grimdark". That is the danger of labeling and categorizing books. I know people may favor a particular kind of story and use these sub-categories to help them find authors and books to try, but that is just it. It should be used as a very general guideline. You should never say "I liked the book but it wasn't grimdark enough or high fantasy enough." If you are glad you read it, and it wasn't "mislabeled" (I was looking for this wonderful coming of age to be a world saving hero story but instead I got everybody emitting bodily fluids, either through graphic sex or brutal slaughter) then the category system did its job. Guidlines shouldn't be that narrow. Ok, through with my rant, I really did enjoy the video.
The thing that makes Logen a bad person is that he always enables the Bloddy-Nine. He always makes bad choices, such as going back to the north, where he knows he’ll find nothing except war and blood. Who thrives in such conditions? The Bloody-Nine! Logen always blames everyone and everything except himself, even though he himself is the main problem. SPOILER FOR THE LAST BOOK: then you hear from Bethod how Logen was a driving force behind Bethod’s war and all that. Logen is not a good person. He’s loveable, but still a bad person.
This is just my opinion of course!
Logen has to live in a world that the bloody nine leaves for him. Everyone who knows his name hates and fears him and he has to put up the front of constant threat and meanness there to have a chance of surviving. Leaving the north and going places no one knew him he had a chance to have a fresh start. His nasty behaviour really only comes back to the fore when he goes back to the north where he is known. This is shown again and re-emphasised in one of the stand alone.
Good review and honest assessment of the books. Interesting twist that Bayaz is actually a tyrant villain who's pulling the strings of power from the shadows. Like you, I felt a little dissatisfied with the open ending of Logan, and that there was no lasting effects from the injuries that character suffered. I've just started the fourth book in the series but from what I understand it doesn't have anything to do with our characters from the first law which is a little disappointing cuz I would really like to get some more of those characters. Mainly did Logan survive or not?
Read red country. Its about logan
I read the first part of The Blade Itself before giving up - I thought it was dull, and was frustrated by the fact that there are almost no female characters involved (there is one and I thought she was poorly written). This is the second positive Booktube video I’ve seen about it though (the other was by Merphy Napier), so I should probably give it another go!
I honestly didn’t care for The Blade Itself for most of it, and only started liking it about halfway in. I really enjoyed the second book, and while I think his character work is really well done, I did find myself a bit disappointed with the ending of the trilogy. The character work is really some of the best I’ve seen, though, so for that alone, I’d say maybe give it another go. If you don’t find you like the second one, though, the third might not be to your liking. Hope that helps! 😊
Golly Gee Willerkers! Thank you for talking about what matters: great entertainment. Salute
Literally sped up my reading of the last book so I could watch it!
I'm happy you made this video. For so long all I've heard about this series is that it's good and grimdark. I never really had a good idea of what it was about or who the characters were.
I've been so hesitant to read grim dark. I have strong emotional reactions to books, so I've been worried that my sensitive little soul couldn't handle it. I think I'll read this trilogy though. I've been wanting to read some grey characters, because sometimes the good guys seem a little unrealistic. I need a little more variety.
The Bloody Nine is a truly bad man, running from his past. He kills all his friends, eventually. He has left many dead friends behind him (that he himself killed). He is trying very hard to be different. to be a better man. He is a better man until the work begins (the work being murders)and then he is a bloodthirsty monster. Even in the big fight at the end he kills one of his comrades.
Will you read the standalones? They are some of the best works Abercrombie has written and imo surpass the trilogy
I AM SO WITH YOU ON LOGAN!!!! So frustrating!!
my biggest issue with Abercrombie is that he writes such good books, that he has a problem with the endings, cause endings are supposed to be the climax, but Abercrombies stories are just good all the way through, makes it really hard to make something stand out that extra bit. His standalone novels in The Trillogy of Law universe are also really good.
With fiction anything can happen if it works for the reader.
Classical Fantasy usually, more often than not has a big ending but modern fantasy doesnt always have to.
I love this kind of reviews with an in-depth spoilery discussion!
I too didn't find the First Law trilogy as dark as I was expecting! I think that is mostly because of its tone: is so focused on the interactions and so funny that it almost reads like a sit-com. Every viewpoint has its particular sense of humor (even Ferro's!) and to me that is what makes the characters so enjoyable even when they are absolutely awful, like Jezal in the first book. The same story written by another pen would've been mindnumbingly boring and grim.
You’re so right about how real these guys feel!
Along with a good story, you actually care about these guys and are interested to see what they do. They’re not just tropes or placeholders. Even glokta just wants to get to the truth and seems to hate corruption. And I certainly feel bad for what he went through.
The link for “The Blade Itself” is coming up as unavailable. I haven’t finished the series but would like to hear your thoughts on the first book.
Glokta is my 2nd favorite character and I loved every section of his story, but certainly do not think he is a good person. He’s still ruthless, still tortures people and causes untold amounts of misery.
By the end of the series, I think only Jezal has actually become a better person. Glokta is just as bad, Ferro is just as bad, Logen is just as bad or possibly worse, Dogman is the same I suppose (he seems genuinely good, as far as warriors go)
and Bayaz is revealed to be the true villain
Gosh, you review was exactly what I was thinking reading these books
Part of the reason jazals injury heals really quickly and well is because Bayaz was healing him with magic
logan vs feared is for sure the best fight scene i've ever read
I feel a central idea or theme is pointlessness and futulity, like in each battle, before the last, its made out that these battes is made out to be pointless. Largely after the entire book, we all end up in the same position, with all the characters needs unfulfilled - logan defeats his enemies is alone, Glokta got his answers, but ended up still taking orders and ferro still wants revenge. I feel death of the main four characters wouldnt have been as impactful to this arc.
You have to be realistic. Logan struggles to reconcile his desire to be better man with the type of monster you'd need to be in order to 10 challenges in the circle. He led the nastiest group of baddies for 10 years, so I'd say he developed his leadership skills very well. It lead Jazal to call him the best person he'd ever met because he was in a completely different setting and didn't need to try to live up to a certain reputation.
Yes, Logen was good in BTaH. In the North, he was terrible. He could’ve turned around but he didn’t. Finished the trilogy 2 days ago, and have been discussing whether he is good or evil in book 3. Jezal said he is the best man he knew, but he is evil to the North. He forced them into a battle not theirs. He is very rude and abusive and feels the need to be his reputation as Logen Ninefingers, the Bloody Nine.
there are a crazy amount of head injuries in this series, that all heal within pages. A common misrepresentation across media. I worked in brain injury rehab for a long time, and it doesn't happen like that. Awesome series though.
should i read the first law trilogy i wanna get into fantasy ived loved harry potters lord of the rings, game of thrones. ive mostly read horror though
Will you be reading the standalones and the Age of madness trilogy?
This might be the only kind of fantasy I can read. I loved the absurdist and nihilistic themes
Yeah I agree, it’s really not as grimdark as people make out, there’s a fair amount of humour and is still a good fun read. Personally where the phrase grimdark comes from is way more apt, especially the first Horus heresy book in the warhammer 40k universe. It’s all just treachery and violence and bleakness, still amazing though!
I think Logen likes being the bloody nine tbh. You can see this in Red Country
Great review and I love your library/collection!
Joe makes great characters. I love the books in the rest of the first law world even more than the first law books. Shivers and the bloody nine are too too cool
Good to see you are better now!
Thanks!
It's weird that Crummock was the first one to announce Logen as king now that we know he knew that Logen had killed his kid. He announces him as king of the Northmen than says he can be their king but not his king and threatens to kill him if he sees him again.
I agree with you that if you swap the order It would've been better. I hated the non-ending.
Rejoice! Spoilers ahead:
I love this series so much primarily because of how the magic is treated. I can buy a grounded story that treats magic more as an ambiguous “faith” based thing rather than a systematic pseudoscience. As a non-religious person, it’s more engrossing for me to buy it as supernatural and beyond direct understanding or control rather than formulaic. It’s why I tend towards ASOIAF as well. I concur strongly with GRRM’s statements on magic.
Also, if magic is to be believed as controllable by characters, it makes those characters “gods”, and this is where Abercrombie was genius imo. He used his fantasy world to ask the questions “What would happen if a petty human being had the ability to ascend to god status, what kind of god would they be?” And in the end he draws into question the existence of free will itself essentially.
And I loved the Union controlled clandestinely by money and Bayaz while his rival Khalul controlled his pawns overtly through religion. “MESSAGE” lol. In the end, all the characters in this world have to waste their lives playing someone else’s game, mostly unknowing of their futility. I’m a big fan of simulation theory, so this was awesome imo.
I really want to go on and on about details you mentioned but I’ll restrain myself. I agree with you it’s not as “grimdark” as people expect. I really hope you continue the series and I’d love to hear your take on Best Served Cold.
Also, check out the short story “Made a Monster”, it gives a different look at Logen pre-trilogy.
I actually think that it's grim dark because of the themes as opposed to the scenes. Sure... No one major dies (besides furious rip.) but the overall themes of lack of freedom, futile lives, purposelessness and how you can ascend to king only to revert back to being on the run in a matter of moments. How we are all victims of our own choices but also of the choices and whims of those up above us is pretty damn bleek. I am eternally grateful to abercrombie for this because he created a darkness our of conscience instead of brutality and shock.
@@fayealexandria9036 For me this feels like grimdark done right. Every other similar book feels so edgelord in comparison.
@@SonOfSeth I completely agree! It doesn't rely on shock it's horrors aren't in your face they're just more real. Personally he's the best grimdark I've read yet!
@@fayealexandria9036 This quote really sums it up nicely for me. It's from Red Country, but I think applies to the world of First Law as a whole.
“Evil turned out not to be a grand thing. Not sneering Emperors with their world-conquering designs. Not cackling demons plotting in the darkness beyond the world. It was small men with their small acts and their small reasons. It was selfishness and carelessness and waste. It was bad luck, incompetence, and stupidity. It was violence divorced from conscience or consequence. It was high ideals, even, and low methods.”
@@SonOfSeth absolutely perfect description of both what the series is all about and what he brings to grimdark!
Late to watching the video but I just finished the series myself. I get what you mean about wanting the chapters to be swapped around at the end, but I think Abercrombie was really pushing the "life moves in a circle" theme by ending glokta and logens stories how they began in the first book.
Suppose I tended to like Logens story and ending a bit more than you did. He definitely seemed to be a good person himself but his past deeds came back to haunt him. The north used him to win, but ultimately couldn't see themselves under his rule. Crannoch(sp) understood what Logen did for them to get the victory, but also wouldnt forgive Logen. for what he did. And dow saw an opportunity for himself and jumped. Just like he wouldnt follow thunderhead, he would not follow Logen.
Love these book, I devoured them really. The ending is ok i guess for the most part. I was hoping the last words of the book would have been: "Still Alive..."
I disagree on the bleakness of the ending. There are fates much worse than death, and therefore I also don't think taking death off the table removes consequences.
Sure, totally agree on the consequences aspect. Idk, I personally just think the series isn’t all that “dark” though it doesn’t necessarily need be 😄
I LOVE these books. Just read "A Little Hatred." Loved it, too