The first book is not even grim dark, I thought it was extremely funny-fun and quick paced. It has some blood on it, but it was just so fun to hear all the drama of the characters!
I'd say it's grimdark because the idea of grimdark is that there are no heroes or good people, which I think fits. But I mean the entire trilogy is hilarious. Abercrombie is pretty funny.
I'm glad you liked the trilogy. What happened to Yulwei was incredibly shocking to me. I did not see that coming. My biggest complaint would probably not knowing more about Khalul. I was expecting him to show up or get his perspective at some point. I would really love a prequel book on Juvens, his brothers, and the apprentices. Something I thought was neat was when were introduced to Logan and in Logan's last scene he is falling. When were introduced to Glokta and in Glokta's last scene he is taking orders from someone. Abercrombie made a nice circle. I was wondering if you've read Red Rising. I just finished the first book last week. I enjoyed it. It feels like a Grimdark Sci-Fi. There's a couple scenes you probably won't like, but I think you might enjoy it as a whole.
I mentioned it only a little in this vid but I TOTALLY agree, the full circle was such a good literary tactic and made the ending so depressing but also just so...complete. Even Ferro - she's walking back to get revenge, showing she's right where she started. I've read the first two Red Rising books then DNF'd the series 😬 I've actaully got a video in my pipeline that I'm planning on calling "convince me to try Red Rising again" lol. Everyone loves it SO MUCH but I didn't enough to continue...
Love your review! Joe Abercrombie writes some terrific female characters when you get into later books and it’s so satisfying- hope you continue reading First Law!!
That detailed review is INCREDIBLE! I loved this trilogy for the same reasons you did too. I didn't mind the depressing endind because he clearly wanted to tackle one specific theme: how hard it is to change when you're back in the same toxic environment that kinda "made you who you are" (but how it's truly about choice and courage). That theme really touched me personally because I went through a lot and saw people just protecting abusers thinking they could be their saviors, and then just repeat the cycle. It is sad, but unfortunately very true and I think it was a great way to put into light such a hard reality. I can't wait to read Best Served Cold, hopefully in July! 💗
The further I get from the series the more I appreciate it and the ending. And the more I've read (I've only done best served cold and the heroes so far) the more this theme really comes together for me. I appreciate it so much!
I think in a number of interviews Abercrombie has said that he intended to flip tropes on their head (like you said), or to play around with established fantasy tropes. So yeah they definitely exist, just maybe not how people are used to seeing them. To answer your question, yeah the trilogy are his first books. One thing that is cool about Abercrombie is (like you say), he just gets better and better. Honestly, his new follow up trilogy is way better than the first law IMO and best served cold is one of my favourite books of all time so give that a try nudge nudge :D Oh and I've heard Joe say in an interview that looking back on the first law he feels that the lack of a proper female voice and POV character was a real weakness of the trilogy. I agree that the female characters definitely felt secondary. On the contrary the follow up 'The age of madness trilogy' has 3 female POV's out of the 5 and they are honestly some of the best female characters i've read in fantasy. They are probably a bit too macho sometimes or cynical.. very different from like a sally rooney female character, but that's probably more to do with the setting and was written that way to fit the narrative rather than a failing of abercrombie's. Thanks for review, was great!
I'm SUPER excited to get to the Age of Madness trilogy because I've been hearing incredible things about it. I've got Heroes up next thought and I'm hoping to get to it soon! I'll admit, Best Served Cold didn't thrill me 😬 I vastly preferred the trilogy for whatever reason.
Your section on how Abercrombie writes sexual assault NOT just as a backdrop, and not graphically, but as an intentional plot point is a lightbulb moment for me. I knew he stood out in those regards, but I couldn't articulate why. And you did! Thank you and great review.
Thanks! It's something I appreciated SO MUCH about his trilogy. Too often authors get lazy and use sexual assault as an easy way to make their world seem darker without giving it the attention or respect it deserves.
Thank you for this perspective on Grim Dark. You make me want to read this trilogy but, at the same time, not because I just don’t want to invest that kind of time if I am going to leave with an overall depressing aftertaste.
Yeah I think that's important going into it! Although I really liked the series overall, it isn't y favorite thing to end on a depressing note, which is why I probably won't be pursing much more grimdark outside of Abercrombie.
This trilogy was indeed Abercrombie's debut. And I agree, his writing continues to improve (to this day, in fact). Without being spoilery, you would enjoy moving forward into the stand-alones (particularly Best Served Cold). I also think you'd like The Age of Madness (his "in-progress" trilogy). Insightful points about sexism. One of the finest and most complete descriptions of where the lines are that I've come across. If you do continue, I think you'll find that Abercrombie's gender dynamics continue to evolve, as well. In Age of Madness his female characters really shine. They're honestly some of my favorite characters in his entire body of work. But I do get what you're saying about needing a break. And--finally!--someone agrees with me about fight/action sequences being among the most tedious part of this series. For me it's true of the entire genre (which I love). I'm most tempted to skim during action scenes. I'm also with you on grimdark as a whole. Love Abercrombie, but grimdark, not so much. I think it's the nihilism that lies at the core of my distaste for it. However, you lost me with your take on the magic. Didn't need more of it here, generally don't need it, and magic is more likely to ruin an epic fantasy book or series for me than it is to enhance my enjoyment. I really enjoy your nuanced and well-considered insight. Thanks and keep up the good work.
You're the second person who has mentioned that his Age of Madness is less fighting-focused, so I really need to go look into that one. I have to admit I'm way closer to an optimist about life, so reading from a nihilistic view is tough for a long period of time for me. I'm happy with my little cup of hope lol. Super interesting about your perspective on the magic. Is it just in this series, or do you generally prefer less magic-descriptions? For example, do hard magic systems ala Brent Weeks and Brandon Sanderson drive you crazy?
Everyone who doesn't like action needs some Robin Hobb in their lives. I just finished Liveship and it probably has a combined 5 pages of action in the entire series.
@@Bookborn Yep--you nailed it. Detailed hard magic systems are the most tedious for me. I DNFed Light Bringer because of it. Sanderson tends to keep me on board with his character work. I guess I just like magic to enigmatic and unpredictable - perhaps even just beyond the unexplainable IRL. And even the slightest hint of deus ex machina with magic drives me nuts. I don't mind for there to be some explanation. For example, I enjoy Robin Hobb's magic (the Wit and the Skill). I've always been a big HisFic reader (second only to adult epic fantasy), so I suppose I only like magic to the extent that it enhances our understanding of character dynamics. But I come for the characters and their relationships. My take on magic makes me feel like the black sheep in the epic fantasy pen. Thanks for asking. Nothing wrong with enjoying a cuppa hope with your storytelling. I honestly believe we (human beings) are wired to seek story, and that we're primarily seeking hope in them. Cheers!
I don’t really agree with the critique on pacing but that could just be something to do with how I read i.e. using audiobooks while I drive for 12 hours a day. Personally before they are hanged was probably my favourite book in the trilogy featuring some of my favourite moments and some of the best settings. The world building was exquisite and and I am a huge sucker for that. I finished all three books inside of a week a few months back now I’m going through them again after my most recent a song of ice and fire re-read. While the prose are very different Joe is no slouch, his world is very well fleshed out short amount of time. Quite an enjoyable experience
Yeah, I actually don't agree with it personally - I quite enjoyed the pacing - but I have to admit it IS different than traditional stories, so I see it being a valid argument (since that's the thing I see the biggest complaint about). It's so funny for me because before they are hanged wasn't my fav while reading, but looking back I appreciate it so much more.
There's something about them that just PULL you in. I haven't read a trilogy in a while that I just was excited to read straight through. He's so good at characters.
I really appreciate your review! I am hesitant getting into grimdark and feel like the things you mentioned are the exact things I like to know when going into books I am hesitant about, so thank you!
As amazing as the trilogy was, and as thrilled as I am that you enjoyed it, just wait until you get into the stand-alones! I can't definitively decide between Best Served Cold and Red Country(though I lean towards Red Country most of the time), but The Heroes is fantastic too. Lots of characters that you didn't see in the trilogy, some that you do, and a number of consequences of events in the trilogy. The "pattern" as it weaves outward is so immaculately executed time and again.
That's what everyone is saying lol. like "cool...now go read the stand alones!" I'm going to read them eventually, but I need some happiness in between 😂
I read The Black Company when I was younger as my first grimdark book and remember really enjoying it but I think I need to go reread it critically as an adult because I'm not sure where it falls on many of the tropes and pitfalls you mentioned.
It's always hard to go back to books you loved when you were younger. So many times they don't live up and I always wish I had just kept the memories haha
I really enjoyed this video because I felt you very clearly delineated how you can find a book well written, but know that it's not for you. Too often people take it very personally when you don't like a book they loved. Grimdark is very much not my genre, for all the reasons you listed you probably won't read much. Ironically for me, this trilogy was the one that made me decide not to read any more. I felt the writing was really good, but I don't like having everyone be horrible. I don't like the evil winning. Like you, I don't have to have an ending that is all sunshine and roses, but I don't want to feel depressed either. Everyone has some darkness in their souls, I just don't like celebrating it.
I like to put that forward too so when I say a book is bad it means something, you know? Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's bad, but then there ARE books I legitimately think are bad lol. I feel the same about grimdark. It was a fun experience, and I'm glad I got to know why everyone loves it. But it's just...not my personality. I love the escapism of the classic hero trope and the pushing through of darkness to come out on top. And if that makes me basic....SO BE IT.
Escapism is not basic or shallow. I always loved what Ursula K. Le Guin said about escapism: „If we value the freedom of the mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can.“ „The direction of escape is toward freedom. So what is ‘escapism’ an accusation of?“ I was very inspired by those quotes.
One of my favourite aspects of the story is that there is a compelling argument to be made that Khalul is a better guy than Bayaz: 1) Khalul breaks the second law, but at least he is honest and upfront about it, unlike Bayaz. 2) Khalul runs the Gurkish Empire with an iron fist, but at least it is a visible iron fist, unlike Bayaz. 3) Khalul is right in wanting to punish Bayaz for the murder of Juvens (say what you will about plunging the world into war to accomplish it though). 4) Khalul appears to be be ruling the empire somewhat jointly with the Emperor, with some amount of separation of power (according to Tulkis the ambassador), unlike Bayaz
I wanted to read more SF/F and horror so I've been watching video reviews. So many reviewers have mentioned Abercrombie books so I decided to sample his work. I read 'Sharp Ends' and liked it well enough to purchase the trilogy. I'm grateful that the heavy and dark story is leavened with humor, otherwise the violence wouldn't be tolerable for my reading taste. I recently started 'The Rage of Dragons' by Evan Winter but DNF. Although the book was well-written and original I found the level of violence to be too much for me. On one page we meet four characters and before the bottom of the page three of them are already dead. I think it's a good novel, but not a good novel for me.
I've wanted to read Rage of Dragons because of everything I've heard, but am nervous about the violence. You'll have to tell me how it compares to the First Law trilogy once you finish it.
His ability to turn the tropes left the series interesting, fresh and shockingly sad at times. But, as you said, his prose, dialog, and character development is top notch. I know you rated LAOK the highest but I would disagree and say Before They are Hanged is the strongest book. Of the stand-alones, I'd highly recommend "The Heroes" - it is a great read, even for those not interested in Fantasy.
I knew that would be unpopular; I've heard most people regard BTAH as the best one! I will say, I appreciated BTAH way more after finishing LAOK...if that makes sense.
If you liked this series, you should definitely try The Faithful and the Fallen. It's grimdark too, but a bit less gory. One big thing about this book though, the first one (Malice) has a lot of character building, so yeah... kinda similar to First Law.
I ranked them more or less the same, 4, 4 and 5 stars 😀 His new trilogy, The Age of Madness, ticks a lot of boxes you mention as critiques here. Slightly fewer fight scenes, a LOT more politics and about half the POV characters are women. It is my second fave series (right behind Stormlight!).
OMG YOU FIND FIGHT SCENES BORING TOO! I thought there was something wrong with me lolol. I really don’t engage with fight scenes in fantasy, a lot of the time I find myself unconsciously skimming through those. I much prefer the general/political intrigue and strategy scenes
Even in Sanderson...my fav author...I skim most of the fight scenes 😬 "This person hits this person...they dodge..." like...sorry, not that interesting to me haha. And I'm so excited for Best Served Cold! I can handle it...maybe....but either way I was going to read it lol
I recommend An Alchemy of Masques and Mirrors. I'm not sure if it qualifies as grim dark, but it definitely has violence in it, but it focuses more on politics. And book 1 at least has a happy ending.
I'd rather it didn't qualify as Grimdark tbh, it brings me down too much 💀 If it's just political intrigue without making me want to die inside, I'd only see that as a positive lol
@@Bookborn Hah hah, just mentioned that because you said you were interested in what a grimdark book might look like if it focused more on politics than violence. Well, in what a Joe Abercrombie book might look like it at least. No Glotka in Alchemy of Masques and Mirrors unfortunately, but the two protags are pretty awesome in their own rights.
I would agree with a couple of comments in here. I'm on the second book of Age of Madness now and it has definitely dialled back quite a bit. Best Served Cold, The Heroes and Far Country are incredibly violent, even by Abercrombie standards. You might want to skip those if you're looking to ease into darker fantasy.
I ended up reading them all LOL I'm on Sharp Ends right now. It's violent for my taste but I love his character work so I'm just pushing through those elements haha
@@Bookborn I’m impressed you stuck with Best Served Cold - that’s a dark read. Sharp Ends is great world building. The Lankmar duo analogy is excellent.
I just finished The Emperor's Soul (and finally, all of Cosmere works) and am looking for my next book (series?). I am wondering if I should go with First Law triology, Farseer trilogy, Poppy War, or start Malazan... I would love to hear your thoughts!
one of the themes about magic in here is how much more power you get from having a vast amount of money. I felt that there were a ton of plots twisting around the seed mostly considering who gets sick and dies and who doesnt. I swear that I would have put real money on Bayaz dying from exposure but instead west who was nowhere near the thing gets sick and dies in the end.
Yeah, I'm very interested to learn more about the seed and I hope it's a subject of other novels in the world. Why did Bayaz not get sick? Is he actually and we just don't know?
@@Bookborn I suspect that if that same story continues the makers daughter can just jump out of the tower, since she can easily survive the fall. and then perhaps begin another convoluted plot with some other disillusioned characters to get the seed from Bayaz. With some sort of double cross to stop her from destroying the world.
I too was totally fine with West and his handling of the prince - like you said no tears shed. Until you see Black Dow's reaction. Anytime you do something that Black Dow approves of..... might be time to do an evaluation of things. I loved that scene.
Great summary of this series. Yes, the first book was his first published book. I’ve seen interviews with him and he even says he has improved as a writer. The 3 stand alone books are great. Still violent 😢 He has a female lead character in the second trilogy. FYI: grim dark is a marketing tool. I think you know this. Game of thrones made it acceptable to have darker themes than what was accepted in fantasy. Do you also read and review science fiction? A classic SF/fantasy that I haven’t seen too many people review is Stephen R. Donaldson’s the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. This is another groundbreaking series. I recommend it. I’ve read them several times.
I'm gonna be honest...it's the main reason I'm so grumpy about Game of Thrones. I feel like people look at the success of game of thrones and think "oh, it has to be brutal and dark and full of sex to be successful to a wide audience". And I'm convinced that's just not true! I'll have to check him out! I really need to read more Sci-fi - it's part of my channel, technically, but i don't read nearly enough of it.
@@Bookborn We are a copy and paste society. If something is popular, then Hollywood, music, and many other industries feel they must do the same thing to reap the harvest from the original. I work in academics and we do this all of the time! Donaldson is really fantasy. Not too graphic (there is one very bad part at the beginning of the first book). The Expanse is SF. Keep up the good work!
I think it's considered grimdark because they are all anti-heroes. Not a single viewpoint character could be considered a good person, which is different than fantasy set in a grim world.
I found this really helpful. I doubt I'll read Abercrombie, kinda for the reasons you give in your "Did I like grimdark?" section. To riff on Chesterton, I *already know* that dragons exist. I want to know how they can be beaten, and grimdark doesn't seem to offer any answer there.
Great review! I love how objective you were able to be. I was the same way-I don’t think I am built for grimdark 😬 I started the first book and almost got halfway, but I just wasn’t enjoying the violence. I think listening to it as an audiobook made it a worse experience for me since I couldn’t skip the violent scenes easily (even though the narrator is amazing!) I appreciate Joe Abercrombie’s work, but it just wasn’t an enjoyable experience for me. I’m so glad I’m not the only person who finds action boring! 😂 Have you tried Malice? I really enjoyed the plot and the characters, but I ended up just skipping the action sequences. John Gwynne is known for writing good combat, and he does a remarkable job! Just not my thing I guess 🤷🏼♀️😋
Oh man, I wouldn't have been able to listen to this AT ALL. I seriously skipped so much gruesome stuff (literally gagged when Glokta first cut off a finger). Grimdark is just not my personality tbh lol Is Malice a fantasy romance book or am I thinking of something WAY different??
Yes! When he started chopping fingers, it made me rethink my decision to try out the genre. Pretty sure my fingers tingled for at least five minutes while I tried (unsuccessfully, I might add) to think of something different! 🤣 Maybe that is a little pathetic 😬 but there is a reason I did not choose Torturer as a career choice. Malice is a fantasy book that seems to be gaining traction on booktube. The author John Gwynne does Viking re-enactments, and the action in his book reflects his knowledge well. It’s a good book! I just didn’t care for the action as much as I wanted to
I'm new to your channel and I'm enjoying your reviews. But out of curiosity, why the warnings? I see some reviewers share them on Goodreads, too. I just, I don't know, aren't we made of stronger stuff? I feel like the characters we read about are often strong, and I wonder, how would they have felt about trigger warnings? Why do YOU give them? Thank you for your response if you can respond. I'd like to understand why people share them. :)
For me, reading is about enjoyment. I do not feel that I am “not strong” because I personally am extremely affected by child harm ever since having children. To the point where I read a novel once where children were harmed significantly and couldn’t sleep after - I suffer from pretty bad anxiety and these things trigger it very badly. Everyone has different experiences in life and some of these can be traumatic enough that reading these things - even in fiction form - are not enjoyable. As far as sex stuff, I just personally don’t enjoy reading it, and I always like when people can give me idea of the content of books I can decide for myself if I will enjoy it. Do I think warnings should be required? No. Do I think this content shouldn’t be created? Absolutely not! But ultimately this content is created for enjoyment, and therefore everyone can make their own decisions on how to spend their enjoyment time :)
Glad you liked it, but if fighting, violence, torture and generally depressing endings aren't your cup o tea.. yeah, grimdark shouldn't be top of your list 😂 That darkness to me _is_ the attraction, going from enjoyable to hilarious 😅 Best Served Cold I'd say is about the same violence wise, but less torture off the top of my head. I think you're okay on this one. The Heroes is a piece of war - so soldiers fighting, waiting, marching, grumbling, fighting. I loved it , and it has West.. Red Country is the Western style book, pretty different in tone from the others. In his new trilogy we get a bit more industrialization, with more political and business scheming - alongside some fighting. And he also has the Shattered Sea trilogy - this is YA or bordering that, so might be a lot easier to handle. Kinda grimdark-light. 😄 Overall.. I think you can find things to love in all of his books - but if you have to skip parts of the books to get through them, maybe wait a good while.
I didn't realize he had written something YA! Is it just YA because it's a little less grim or does it follow younger characters? Yeah, I'm not going to become some grimdark lover anytime soon...or probably ever. But I think I'll read a few more Abercrombie just because I enjoyed his writing style so much.
@@Bookborn The protagonist(s) are indeed a bit younger, I'd say mid teens or so. The series has gotten a lot less attention as it doesn't really draw in the usual grimdark crowd, but I liked it 😊
I think the Shanks need more fleshing out. I understood why they were created but they play such an odd role for little they impact the story. They kind of popped up in the second book and I guess it just made them feel like some kind of role of the dice random encounter.
They were there since the first book, since Logan talks about them killing his family and is being hunted by them, but I agree that it would've been cool to learn more. I was most curious to see if they had their own montivations like everyone else was shown to have; or were they really mostly mindless killing machines?
@@Bookborn I don't know if you've watched Daniel Greene's interview with Joe Abercrombie or any other interviews, but Joe says that he wanted to make a more 'real' or 'gritty' fantasy after years of reading Lord of the Rings or things like that. IMO, you can see so many instances where LotR was a direct influence. I feel like the Shanka or Flatheads were one of these, meant to be a direct reference to Orcs and Goblins. It would have been cool to learn more about them, but knowing that they were left behind from the age when the sons of Euz fought sounds very much like LotR as well.
If the answer to 'Is it overhyped?' is yes, then... *body found floating by the docks* Seriously though, I really enjoyed the trilogy as well, but I think the standalones are better. Best Served Cold is my favourite Abercrombie so far, but it's a violent, hateful vendetta so it's probably not your thing. Think Kill Bill 1&2 in a single book.
I've been looking over my shoulder this entire video...I expect to be floating by the docks any day now. (JK it wasn't overhyped) I'm so torn on reading Best Served Cold. SO many people have said it's incredible, but they've also said it's more brutal which...can I handle it? To be determined.
I don't agree. I think Heroes for example was boring. Best Served Cold was on par with the trilogy and Red Country is great but not First Law great. So I like 2 of the stand alones but none were better than the glorious trilogy imo.
@@currangill430 If you consider a 500 page-battle boring . . . well. I liked it for what it was, it did what it wanted to do imo: show the terror and pointlessness of war. I can't judge Red Country yet, but BSC is my favourite because it's a revenge story - and as such, it had a clearly structured plot that I'd missed during Blade Itself :) Also, so far the prose has improved in every book!
@@thecontradictorian2225 I did a review on this on a First Law fb group. I'm just not a war junkie maybe or I maybe I just found it very campie just staying in one location. I think I would have liked it more if it was more broad? Like instead of battling over a hill maybe villages, towns, cities, etc would have made it more interesting for me? Idk.
@@currangill430 but then it wouldn’t have underlined the pointlessness as well as it did. All of those antiheroes fighting over a useless hill that’s called The Heroes.
LOL that reminds me...my husband watched The Walking Dead back in the day (which I was never interested in for obvious reasons) and one time I literally saw like 30 seconds while I was walking past and had a nightmare that night about zombies. I'M SO WEAK GUYS.
I'm a part of Megan's Bookish Buddies (from the channel Megan's Reading Revelations), Fantasy Book Talk (from the channel Alex Nieves), and the Bookworm Lounge (from the channel Readbyandy). I'm also on the 17th shard discord and Shelf Space, but I frequent those less!
Thank you for the series review Bookborn. As someone who's afraid to start grimdark, this actually wants me to read. I don't like sexism in books ang I would totally skip some gory scenes here.
You need to check out Red Rising. It’s split between 2 trilogies that are separated by 10 years. The second trilogy is very political and is my favorite series of all time
My secret is that I read the first two red rising books...then DNF'd the series. I have a video in the pipeline basically titled "convince me to try again" lol. Everyone loves it SO Much and idk...I just wasn't motivated to continue.
@@Bookborn I am soooo with you! I tried with the first two books and COULD not continue..The main character is kind of annoying to say the least. See I can’t even remember his name... 🤦🏼♂️
@@LawlessLegends The writing in the first part of the first book was super rough. Then I really enjoyed the last half of the first book. The second book was fine but yeah... the characters just didn't resonate with me. I can't remember any of their names either, lol.
Last Argument of Kings is so epic! Such a great trilogy. Loved your review! The series keeps getting better and better and Abercrombie's writing some how improves with each book! Along with Last Argument of Kings, book 4 Best Served Cold and book 9 The Trouble With Peace are my personal favorites.
Everyone seems to say Best Served Cold is there fav stand alone. I own it already and am going to try it...but I'm a little nervous since people say it's brutal
@@Bookborn It is brutal for sure, but not really any more or less brutal than anything from the trilogy. Since you handled the graphic violence in the trilogy well enough I'm sure you'll be fine.
Great video especially the list of triggers in the end. I’m still unsure though. What kind of torture is used in the book. I’m really sensitive to torture. I probably shouldn’t read this.
I would definitely NOT read this book if you are sensitive to torture. I am not particularly, but I found it pretty nauseating and skimmed a lot of those parts. It's a big theme and is centered around one of the main characters.
This video technically doesn't have any spoilers except for one three-min segment that I clearly delineate! But I get if you don't want to know anything about it!
@@Bookborn I only started reading fantasy recently, I started with The Lies of Locke Lamora and then moved on to The First Law. I finished Best Served Cold a few days ago and it was sooo goood. Especially with the audiobook. The Lies of Locke Lamora is still my favorite of everything I've read so far, although Best Served Cold and the other First Law books are very close.
Great review, just finished this series. Glokta is an absolutely awful person and yet I loved his character so much, particularly his inner monologue. I also found him and Ardee to be unexpectedly sweet together?
Great review. I strongly recommend the new trilogy Abercrombie is writing set in the same world but a bit later in time. Only the first two books A Little Hatred and The Trouble with Peace have been released so far but I love them! They have much stronger female characters and more female perspectives. Also there is more focus on the rebellion of the common folk against the unjustness of the system. And the battle scenes are told from so many perspectives that they are more interesting than usual (like you I tend to have the urge to skip battle scenes in fantasy). Oh and Bayaz is less prominent (so far). I mean he is a great character but I was ab-so-lutely fuming at him for combining being so evil AND powerful in the original trilogy.
I just got A Little Hatred yesterday & am looking forward to starting it! I’ll probably just go ahead & buy The Trouble With Peace right away, since I loved The First Law Trilogy & his three stand alone books (Best Served Cold, The Heroes & Red Country).
@@Bookborn The new series is amazing. But I feel some parts are even darker (as they refer child labor or the French revolution ) Some parts are also funnier. And the growth as a writer only continued.
In response to your craving a more political focus, I think the newest trilogy that Abercrombie is writing (called the Age of Madness) should be perfect for you. It has a heavier focus on politics and less violence and action so far. It's on the second book in the trilogy, and the last one comes out in September. Between that series and the First Law trilogy there are three standalone books, but I've seen people skip the standalone books and not have a problem. It adds a lot to read them, but they aren't fully required, imo.
So many people are mentioning this one so I need to check it out- more political and less war is DEF up my ally. And kind of exciting that it isn't finished yet...maybe I can get the first two in before the third comes out this year.
IMO, the three following standalone novels are even better, although you probably wouldn't care for Heroes. (and, The Blade Itself was his debut novel.)
By recommendation from others, I'm probably skipping heroes based on my preferences. And as strong as the Blade Itself was, it is amazing that you can see his writing improve from the second to the third book.
SO happy you loved it. Abercrombie is one of my favourite authors for so much reasons. and the best part is that it's just get better, the standalones trilogy is even better (aside fron Red Country which is good but not great) and the new trilogy is even better then that lol.
Also I feel like I recommended him here before but Mark Lawrence is great for a grimdark book that avoid the most terrible stuff (not Prince of Thorns tho you will not like that one). More recent read for me was We Ride the Storm by Devin Madson. Im not sure if its classifies as grimdark but it had a bit of the feelings and it wqas great
I've been NEEDING to read Mark Lawrence. My husband read and loved Prince of Thorns but very explicitly told me I would hate it and should not read it lol. Not too long ago I bought one of his books that I just haven't gotten to yet. It's something about the stars? A girl and the Stars or something?
@@Bookborn oh the Girl and the Stars is pretty good but I would recommend reading Red Sister first but TGATS is getting a sequel soon so it might be a good time to pick it up
Yes, slightly overhyped. I finally read at at the start of the year and it was a 4/5 for me. I really liked it but didn’t measure up and I found some issues. My brother in law quit after book 1. I’ll still def continue, already own one or two stand alones.
I did enjoy most of the character arch’s, very different to see them come full circle.. BUT I hate Ferros. I found her pointless in the end. “Here hold this rock”
Yeah I think it's for sure a taste thing. Like some people just can't stand that nothing happens. If you aren't a character person, this book is NOT for you. I think Abercrombie isn't super great at giving his female characters things to do. I love how he develops them, but then they don't get to do a ton. Even in Best Served Cold, which is technically all about this main female character Monza, I felt the male characters took up more of the interesting parts of the story.
Red Country, to the best of my recollection is far less fight scene-y and more Oregon Trail-ish, but without dysentery and MUCH better characters. :) And I have some bad news about the characters you wanted to protect...
Noooo....I figured 😭 West is dead by my estimations (although again, we didn't see him die, but he was almost wasted away) so that leaves dogman to turn terrible (ugh) or Yulwei to be alive and turn terrible (double ugh)
@@Bookborn I just said I had bad news. There are worse things than death. ;) One of the things I really enjoyed in these books (I recently finished The Trouble With Peace) was that they were NOT happy endings...like real life. :) I LOVE Logan...see how that works out for me? The trilogy was good, but I was hooked in Best Served Cold...there is a scene where you JUST KNOW what is about to happen, it has to happen and then it doesn't! BAM! A major recurring character is totally altered for the rest of the existing books, and again, not in the happy fluffy way. From then on Mr. Abercrombie had me.
@@WJRobbins125 I'm sort of the opposite because I think life is happy and I'm an optimist and I like optimistic stories 😂 I did enjoy this a lot, obviously though, and there are certain parts that def feel more realistic (particularly the effects of war). Either way, though, I won't be a grimdark connoisseur anytime soon.
@@Bookborn Like most genres, I don't realize I'm in one until after the fact. :) I was all the way through The Reckoners series before I knew it was considered YA. I mean I'm far from young now, and barley an adult. This used to just be under Dystopian, but grimdark sounds cooler I guess.
West understandably gets a lot of flack for hitting Ardee and losing control like he did. But I think many people also miss the context of the world they live in and have grown up in. Their home situation that involved a lot of domestic violence from their dad. And it might have been relatively common for their friends etc in the north to have similar experiences so it could have almost felt normal but still wrong. Like in migrant communities getting physical punishment is literally a joke among second generation teens / millennials. Not to mention they live in an ultra patriarchal society, with very rigid social rules for men and women, esp women. Where chastity is considered to be the most important thing a woman has. A world where esp for Jezal as an aristocrat. Even a woman just giving her own opinions.. her having opinions to begin with was absolutely mind blowing. Ariss dan Kaspa had that lady with her to make sure everything was proper at all times. Ardee is a wildcard. A girl that quickly lost her virginity at a very young age. Got pregnant. Miscarried because her dad got so angry he kicked her off the stairs etc. She resents and is angry with West for having "left her" with her father. Which is very unfair towards West. Meanwhile now she is at the Agriont she also does not feel like she fits in or belongs. She feels like everyone looks down on her. Which they probably do. But she also makes it easy for them by not conforming to the standards of their society, norms and values. The resentment towards West for him "abandoning" her combined with the feeling of being constantly judged, constantly looked down upon mixed with the alcohol causes her to be even more unpredictable and dangerous. Meanwhile West is working his ass off to create something of himself. To secure a good future for his family, inc Ardee whom he so obviously adores despite all her faults. Remember, West grew up with these same ideas about women etc. Sure it's not as strict as Jezal because he's a commoner. Still chastity, family honor these things likely are extremely important to him. And it likely literally hurts him like what his sister does is a personal attack, something that can ruin not only his "honor" but also everything he worked for. All the work he did to try and make his name a legitimate one. Then it's not so crazy, inhuman or evil of even an otherwise very good man to lose control in the middle of the most intensely stressful and chaotic time in his life up until that point (to the point where I thought he might have cancer or something because of his constant migraines, figured that would be the reveal but not the way it was). When his little sister, is running around trying to seduce the biggest womanizer, scmbag who sees you as his lesser. Whom you are certain would never marry her, only toy with her, ruin her reputation (and with that yours) then move on to marry Ariss dan Kaspa or the like. When you know your sister has already gotten herself in trouble with her pursuit of ... love He of course instantly and intensely regrets what he does. And this regret is a massive theme for the rest of every part of his story and journey. But other than that West is nothing but a good and decent guy. He and Yulwei are the only guys who are truly good. West will constantly try to see things from the other side. No mater how bad the other side is. He always tries to help. He tries to avoid violence. He never kills innocents, only kills the rpst crown prince who was already dead considering Beyaz's plans. It's really sad how he ends up. But that's what I loved about the book. In this world no one necessarily gets what they deserve. I mean we're all sympathetic towards Glokta but did he really deserve Ardee? Who truly seems to insist on being a real wife to him. Even cleaning up his filth in the morning. He gets the second most powerful position in the entire empire after Bayaz. He gets until riches, a beautiful wife, all his enemies are gone, he's got the strongest ally in the world etc. Meanwhile Logen is fkd. There is no way he can ever have a normal life as long as he can't take control of the bloody nine. At heart he's a decent guy. But fk .. that scene with TulDuru made me put down my book for a minute. Was annoyed that it seemed like Ferro had gone crazy when Logen came to visit. But when Bayaz came she was ok. Then suddenly she had the same powers as Tolomei because of the stone (which was pretty cool). But I mean she obsessed about Logen just as much as he did about her. He came back for her etc. But she didn't even bother. If they missed each other or something went wrong in another way it would have made more sense. Kinda weird that Ferro would act so crazy infront of Logen and then not even bother to explain or say anything. Esp when he took the effort to visit her so it should tell her something at least.
I enjoyed First Law as well. I liked Logan's character arc and how the concept of the "bloody nine" was handled. Spoilers Below The bloody nine was still left up in the air a bit. The interpretation I lean towards is that the "bloody nine" as a excuse for his behavior. He had multiple chances to leave the violence behind but ended up staying. In the end, he has chosen to remain a cold blooded killer and the brilliant part is that I still love him as a character. First Law is by far my favorite grimdark and the only other grimdark book I have enjoyed is The Grey Bastards by Jonathan French. It has that bit if humor that is similar to Abercrombie. I have yet to read the sequel but it is on my tbr.
The ending with the bloody nine was pretty chilling. I really had believed it was some sort of spirit/magic thing controlling him. When you get that scene with Bethod and he's like...Logen, you were the one who was violent. You were the one pushing me to kill. That was just SO SAD and SO CHILLING and just so well done.
As you don't like the violence, you should probably avoid reading The Heroes. It's just the minutiae of a three-day battle. Sure, that includes a lot of negotiation and power play between commanders and stuff but it's all focussed around the battle. You also said that you enjoy more of the politics and I think you might like the second Abercrombie trilogy better. There is still fighting but it's a lot more "violence is a tool for doing politics", rather than "war is the purpose". Also, the Union is undergoing an Industrial Revolution, so reasons and means of violence are changing. Plus, the second trilogy is full of female POVs. Including the one inquisitor and, so far, we haven't had any scenes that are anywhere near as vile as the finger scene.
I know I'm late but would anyone else wanna see like an individual character review for logen cause I actually made a chart for the differences between him and the bloody nine, feel like a few things slipped through the cracks
As someone who only watched 2/3 of game of thrones (the other third I watched the back of my eyelids) and regretted watching about a third of what I DID watch, I appreciate this take a lot as I am with you on the whole torture/sexual violence thing. I do think I'll read it, but...we'll see.
I loved it but i do haveone issue with it. The overarching plot takes too long to develop, like most of book 2 feels like" this is cool but whats the point?" And by the end i lovedit but again, what was the point. I guess beating kalul, but that was not important for many of the characters.
I just finished Last Argument of Kings a few days ago. Loved the series, and the Named Men were my favourite, so I'm totally with you on Dogman. I've not done much grimdark otherwise except for Prince of Thorns, which I practically hated - looking back on the main character now makes my skin crawl. Definitely interested in Best Served Cold and the others though. Sharp Ends might be worth a look, it's short stories from the First Law world, so you get some of the characters in more bite-sized chunks (I've only read one of the stories myself so can't comment on which characters or how good it is!).
The story felt incomplete to me. I really enjoyed it and will read more in the series, but I felt like some major plotlines went completely unresolved.
As much as I adore this trilogy, the Age of Madness has potential to usurp the original as my favourite fantasy trilogy depending on how the third book goes.
I've heard it's sooo good. I won't get to it by the time it releases (the last one is coming out in september, yeah?) But I hope to get to heroes soon.
The Age of Madness Trilogy that follows this trilogy is a better written and will more likely be your cup of tea because of the political stuff. While the First Law has a strong grip on me and will always be my favorite this next installment I can see more people liking mostly because of the new crop of characters.
You will not like Best Served Cold at all if you couldn't handle the violence in the first trilogy. Best Served Cold is a very brutal book. Heroes has a lot of violence too, it's a war story (I personally didn't like it). Red Country is a little less violent than Heroes and Best Served Cold but there's a lot of violence and deaths. I don't think Joe will ever shy away from the violence tbh. But I hear the first book out of the sequel trilogy is very political based. Maybe try out his YA books, Severed Seas?
@@Bookborn It's Kill Bill Joe Abercrombie style. It's a beautiful change of events you'll see when you read it. The mc Monza I was iffy until the halfway point. The thing I like about it is after each part there's a Monza backstory like how she got into power etc. By part 3 I understood her motives. At first I thought she was just a mary sue/ man with boobs but in Joe style you go "I see what you did there, Joe." I'll say this, I don't agree with statement that the stand alones ARE BETTER I think they're on par. I think BSC felt very First Law with the amount of traveling you do around Styria. BSC > RC> H
I'm on page 124 of the blade itself. It's a very cynical book but I suppose he does write decent characters. I don't find this type of fantasy compelling though. It's the same with Game of thrones.
I think the biggest complaint of his novel is the pacing; it definitely has slower pacing, although it reminds me a lot of LOTR in a sense because it's one long story split into three parts. It certainly isn't for everyone!
@@Bookborn He is great at what he does but I can't imagine getting 'book depression' from it so far. I think he has fantastic technique and writes sarcastic, cynical, bleak characters very well. He's very good at using the 3rd limited pov as was Robert Jordan. But political grim dark stories just don't captivate me much.
Joe Abercrombie is the only Grimdark author I have read and liked. The others Grimdark books I have read seem like they were written by some 30 year old in his basement who has now been told he can talk about sex and swear. The books I tried just seemed to have graphic sex, graphic sexual assault, graphic violence and swearing, for no apparent reason, all the time.
There’s still violence and war but the Age Of Madness sequel trilogy is very politically focused so I think those might be more up your alley! The world is hitting an industrial revolution at that point so there’s more sociopolitical conflict. Also a better male/female character balance, 4 out of the 7 main POVs are women in that trilogy.
@@Bookborn For what it’s worth, you might still want to read the three First Law stand-alones first, since they take place between the two trilogies and lay some of the background for the characters the Age of Madness is concerned with. You’d probably be able to keep up with most of the major plot beats but would miss some of the subtler characters moments.
Yulwei is most likely didn't survive, I think. Given the circumstances he's in there with 'someone'. Yes he has 'that' ability, but I still think not. Keep in mind, that in Grimdark, there is no really 'good' person. Everyone has their own purposes to do things. Wether they are good or bad. Even 'Khalul' has his own purposes why he do 'this' thing.
I'm sure Yulwei isn't good, like you said, but I couldn't help holding on to one ship in the night lolol. I think it's most likely that he's dead...although somebody made a comment that made me think we get more of him in other books (but could be flashbacks...)
Well... I am not complaining that i got your video in my recommendation, but I just started the book yesterday... How the hell does youtube know that? 🙄🤷🏻♂️
I've heard that! But I've also heard the new trilogy is straight up war scenes, which tend to be my least favorite part, so IDK if I'm going to try it...
Definitely recommend reading the standalones which take place between the first and second trilogy (uninteresting opinion: The Heroes is my personal favorite). What I love about his sequel trilogy is that the plot is much more focused around politics, scheming etc. compared to his original trilogy. Of course there are some big war scenes but they are much more interesting than his previous work (can't say why without spoiling) in my opinion. And this comes from someone who usually finds war scenes/combat in general boring. Would be really awesome if you gave A Little Hatred a try down the road but you shouldn't force yourself if grim dark isn't your cup of tea. Kind Regards Sengil
Hey just found your channel and enjoy your reviews and videos... but you just said dogman is not a good person, and that’s kinda going a little too far
@@Bookborn skip it and you miss out on so much plot and character development that affects what comes later. Besides, his fight scenes are done in a very unique way. It may be about a huge battle but it's not hundreds of pages of nothing but fighting. I wouldn't say the term standalone is fitting for the books that follow the initial trilogy. Yes they have self contained stories but there's so much in them that either follows up on something previous or sets up what is to come that they're still just one long ongoing series.
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Say one thing for Bookborn, say she has made a good First Law review.
THANKS JAKE
You have to be realistic about these things.
Can never have too many reviews
The audiobook are amazing! The narrator, Steven pacey, is fantastic!
The first book is not even grim dark, I thought it was extremely funny-fun and quick paced. It has some blood on it, but it was just so fun to hear all the drama of the characters!
I'd say it's grimdark because the idea of grimdark is that there are no heroes or good people, which I think fits. But I mean the entire trilogy is hilarious. Abercrombie is pretty funny.
I'm glad you liked the trilogy. What happened to Yulwei was incredibly shocking to me. I did not see that coming. My biggest complaint would probably not knowing more about Khalul. I was expecting him to show up or get his perspective at some point. I would really love a prequel book on Juvens, his brothers, and the apprentices.
Something I thought was neat was when were introduced to Logan and in Logan's last scene he is falling. When were introduced to Glokta and in Glokta's last scene he is taking orders from someone. Abercrombie made a nice circle.
I was wondering if you've read Red Rising. I just finished the first book last week. I enjoyed it. It feels like a Grimdark Sci-Fi. There's a couple scenes you probably won't like, but I think you might enjoy it as a whole.
I mentioned it only a little in this vid but I TOTALLY agree, the full circle was such a good literary tactic and made the ending so depressing but also just so...complete. Even Ferro - she's walking back to get revenge, showing she's right where she started.
I've read the first two Red Rising books then DNF'd the series 😬 I've actaully got a video in my pipeline that I'm planning on calling "convince me to try Red Rising again" lol. Everyone loves it SO MUCH but I didn't enough to continue...
Love your review! Joe Abercrombie writes some terrific female characters when you get into later books and it’s so satisfying- hope you continue reading First Law!!
I actually thought his female characters were great in this one, just wanted more of them. But I've heard from everyone that I get my wish :)
What terrific female characters
That detailed review is INCREDIBLE! I loved this trilogy for the same reasons you did too. I didn't mind the depressing endind because he clearly wanted to tackle one specific theme: how hard it is to change when you're back in the same toxic environment that kinda "made you who you are" (but how it's truly about choice and courage). That theme really touched me personally because I went through a lot and saw people just protecting abusers thinking they could be their saviors, and then just repeat the cycle. It is sad, but unfortunately very true and I think it was a great way to put into light such a hard reality.
I can't wait to read Best Served Cold, hopefully in July! 💗
The further I get from the series the more I appreciate it and the ending. And the more I've read (I've only done best served cold and the heroes so far) the more this theme really comes together for me. I appreciate it so much!
I think in a number of interviews Abercrombie has said that he intended to flip tropes on their head (like you said), or to play around with established fantasy tropes. So yeah they definitely exist, just maybe not how people are used to seeing them. To answer your question, yeah the trilogy are his first books. One thing that is cool about Abercrombie is (like you say), he just gets better and better. Honestly, his new follow up trilogy is way better than the first law IMO and best served cold is one of my favourite books of all time so give that a try nudge nudge :D Oh and I've heard Joe say in an interview that looking back on the first law he feels that the lack of a proper female voice and POV character was a real weakness of the trilogy. I agree that the female characters definitely felt secondary. On the contrary the follow up 'The age of madness trilogy' has 3 female POV's out of the 5 and they are honestly some of the best female characters i've read in fantasy. They are probably a bit too macho sometimes or cynical.. very different from like a sally rooney female character, but that's probably more to do with the setting and was written that way to fit the narrative rather than a failing of abercrombie's. Thanks for review, was great!
I'm SUPER excited to get to the Age of Madness trilogy because I've been hearing incredible things about it. I've got Heroes up next thought and I'm hoping to get to it soon! I'll admit, Best Served Cold didn't thrill me 😬 I vastly preferred the trilogy for whatever reason.
Your section on how Abercrombie writes sexual assault NOT just as a backdrop, and not graphically, but as an intentional plot point is a lightbulb moment for me. I knew he stood out in those regards, but I couldn't articulate why. And you did! Thank you and great review.
Thanks! It's something I appreciated SO MUCH about his trilogy. Too often authors get lazy and use sexual assault as an easy way to make their world seem darker without giving it the attention or respect it deserves.
I'm so so interested in reading this series! Thanks for the detailed rundown!
Come back and let me know how you like it if you ever get around to it!
did you ever get around to it 🤔
And it only gets better from here 👀
I had no idea when I first started this trilogy that the world is so extensive!
I was surprised to find a bookborn review for this series, I'm pleasantly surprised you liked it. Good review as well.🤘
tbh I wasn't expecting to like it when I read it LOL.
I have always been fascinated by this trilogy, you definitely made me want to try it out!
I hope you like it!
Thank you for this perspective on Grim Dark. You make me want to read this trilogy but, at the same time, not because I just don’t want to invest that kind of time if I am going to leave with an overall depressing aftertaste.
Yeah I think that's important going into it! Although I really liked the series overall, it isn't y favorite thing to end on a depressing note, which is why I probably won't be pursing much more grimdark outside of Abercrombie.
This trilogy was indeed Abercrombie's debut. And I agree, his writing continues to improve (to this day, in fact). Without being spoilery, you would enjoy moving forward into the stand-alones (particularly Best Served Cold). I also think you'd like The Age of Madness (his "in-progress" trilogy). Insightful points about sexism. One of the finest and most complete descriptions of where the lines are that I've come across. If you do continue, I think you'll find that Abercrombie's gender dynamics continue to evolve, as well. In Age of Madness his female characters really shine. They're honestly some of my favorite characters in his entire body of work. But I do get what you're saying about needing a break.
And--finally!--someone agrees with me about fight/action sequences being among the most tedious part of this series. For me it's true of the entire genre (which I love). I'm most tempted to skim during action scenes. I'm also with you on grimdark as a whole. Love Abercrombie, but grimdark, not so much. I think it's the nihilism that lies at the core of my distaste for it. However, you lost me with your take on the magic. Didn't need more of it here, generally don't need it, and magic is more likely to ruin an epic fantasy book or series for me than it is to enhance my enjoyment.
I really enjoy your nuanced and well-considered insight. Thanks and keep up the good work.
You're the second person who has mentioned that his Age of Madness is less fighting-focused, so I really need to go look into that one. I have to admit I'm way closer to an optimist about life, so reading from a nihilistic view is tough for a long period of time for me. I'm happy with my little cup of hope lol.
Super interesting about your perspective on the magic. Is it just in this series, or do you generally prefer less magic-descriptions? For example, do hard magic systems ala Brent Weeks and Brandon Sanderson drive you crazy?
Everyone who doesn't like action needs some Robin Hobb in their lives. I just finished Liveship and it probably has a combined 5 pages of action in the entire series.
@@Bookborn Yep--you nailed it. Detailed hard magic systems are the most tedious for me. I DNFed Light Bringer because of it. Sanderson tends to keep me on board with his character work. I guess I just like magic to enigmatic and unpredictable - perhaps even just beyond the unexplainable IRL. And even the slightest hint of deus ex machina with magic drives me nuts. I don't mind for there to be some explanation. For example, I enjoy Robin Hobb's magic (the Wit and the Skill). I've always been a big HisFic reader (second only to adult epic fantasy), so I suppose I only like magic to the extent that it enhances our understanding of character dynamics. But I come for the characters and their relationships. My take on magic makes me feel like the black sheep in the epic fantasy pen. Thanks for asking.
Nothing wrong with enjoying a cuppa hope with your storytelling. I honestly believe we (human beings) are wired to seek story, and that we're primarily seeking hope in them. Cheers!
I don’t really agree with the critique on pacing but that could just be something to do with how I read i.e. using audiobooks while I drive for 12 hours a day. Personally before they are hanged was probably my favourite book in the trilogy featuring some of my favourite moments and some of the best settings. The world building was exquisite and and I am a huge sucker for that. I finished all three books inside of a week a few months back now I’m going through them again after my most recent a song of ice and fire re-read. While the prose are very different Joe is no slouch, his world is very well fleshed out short amount of time. Quite an enjoyable experience
Yeah, I actually don't agree with it personally - I quite enjoyed the pacing - but I have to admit it IS different than traditional stories, so I see it being a valid argument (since that's the thing I see the biggest complaint about). It's so funny for me because before they are hanged wasn't my fav while reading, but looking back I appreciate it so much more.
These books, they helped me get out of a reading slump and get back into fantasy. I am really apreciative of them, and Abercrombie is the GOAT.
There's something about them that just PULL you in. I haven't read a trilogy in a while that I just was excited to read straight through. He's so good at characters.
I really appreciate your review! I am hesitant getting into grimdark and feel like the things you mentioned are the exact things I like to know when going into books I am hesitant about, so thank you!
Let me know if you end up trying it out! I'm glad I did even if just to realize it wasn't exactly for me haha
Completely agree about wanting to know more about the magical lore and, indeed, more history and lore in the general world. Great review.
I gotta say it. I just gotta say it. You give me a complete Merphy Napier vibe in your reviews. And That's a compliment btw.
I take that as a HUGE compliment, thank you!
As amazing as the trilogy was, and as thrilled as I am that you enjoyed it, just wait until you get into the stand-alones! I can't definitively decide between Best Served Cold and Red Country(though I lean towards Red Country most of the time), but The Heroes is fantastic too. Lots of characters that you didn't see in the trilogy, some that you do, and a number of consequences of events in the trilogy. The "pattern" as it weaves outward is so immaculately executed time and again.
That's what everyone is saying lol. like "cool...now go read the stand alones!" I'm going to read them eventually, but I need some happiness in between 😂
Let me know if you know some really happy novels. I also need some happiness now.
You just have to find that happiness in individual character victories here and there haha. That's fair though. BSC gets pretty dark.
I read The Black Company when I was younger as my first grimdark book and remember really enjoying it but I think I need to go reread it critically as an adult because I'm not sure where it falls on many of the tropes and pitfalls you mentioned.
It's always hard to go back to books you loved when you were younger. So many times they don't live up and I always wish I had just kept the memories haha
I really enjoyed this video because I felt you very clearly delineated how you can find a book well written, but know that it's not for you. Too often people take it very personally when you don't like a book they loved. Grimdark is very much not my genre, for all the reasons you listed you probably won't read much. Ironically for me, this trilogy was the one that made me decide not to read any more. I felt the writing was really good, but I don't like having everyone be horrible. I don't like the evil winning. Like you, I don't have to have an ending that is all sunshine and roses, but I don't want to feel depressed either. Everyone has some darkness in their souls, I just don't like celebrating it.
I like to put that forward too so when I say a book is bad it means something, you know? Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's bad, but then there ARE books I legitimately think are bad lol.
I feel the same about grimdark. It was a fun experience, and I'm glad I got to know why everyone loves it. But it's just...not my personality. I love the escapism of the classic hero trope and the pushing through of darkness to come out on top. And if that makes me basic....SO BE IT.
Escapism is not basic or shallow. I always loved what Ursula K. Le Guin said about escapism:
„If we value the freedom of the mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can.“
„The direction of escape is toward freedom. So what is ‘escapism’ an accusation of?“
I was very inspired by those quotes.
I'm glad to hear you had a good time with the trilogy. Maybe I'll come back to it when the time is right
One of my favourite aspects of the story is that there is a compelling argument to be made that Khalul is a better guy than Bayaz:
1) Khalul breaks the second law, but at least he is honest and upfront about it, unlike Bayaz.
2) Khalul runs the Gurkish Empire with an iron fist, but at least it is a visible iron fist, unlike Bayaz.
3) Khalul is right in wanting to punish Bayaz for the murder of Juvens (say what you will about plunging the world into war to accomplish it though).
4) Khalul appears to be be ruling the empire somewhat jointly with the Emperor, with some amount of separation of power (according to Tulkis the ambassador), unlike Bayaz
I wanted to read more SF/F and horror so I've been watching video reviews. So many reviewers have mentioned Abercrombie books so I decided to sample his work. I read 'Sharp Ends' and liked it well enough to purchase the trilogy. I'm grateful that the heavy and dark story is leavened with humor, otherwise the violence wouldn't be tolerable for my reading taste. I recently started 'The Rage of Dragons' by Evan Winter but DNF. Although the book was well-written and original I found the level of violence to be too much for me. On one page we meet four characters and before the bottom of the page three of them are already dead. I think it's a good novel, but not a good novel for me.
I've wanted to read Rage of Dragons because of everything I've heard, but am nervous about the violence. You'll have to tell me how it compares to the First Law trilogy once you finish it.
I DNF’d The Burning. I just couldn’t get behind Tao.
His ability to turn the tropes left the series interesting, fresh and shockingly sad at times. But, as you said, his prose, dialog, and character development is top notch. I know you rated LAOK the highest but I would disagree and say Before They are Hanged is the strongest book. Of the stand-alones, I'd highly recommend "The Heroes" - it is a great read, even for those not interested in Fantasy.
I knew that would be unpopular; I've heard most people regard BTAH as the best one! I will say, I appreciated BTAH way more after finishing LAOK...if that makes sense.
If you liked this series, you should definitely try The Faithful and the Fallen. It's grimdark too, but a bit less gory.
One big thing about this book though, the first one (Malice) has a lot of character building, so yeah... kinda similar to First Law.
I'm all about less gory lol I'll check it out.
I ranked them more or less the same, 4, 4 and 5 stars 😀
His new trilogy, The Age of Madness, ticks a lot of boxes you mention as critiques here. Slightly fewer fight scenes, a LOT more politics and about half the POV characters are women.
It is my second fave series (right behind Stormlight!).
SO many people have been mentioning Age Of Madness, so I'm adding that to my list...for when I feel prepared to be depressed again lol
@@Bookborn It follows up the First Law trilogy. I am yet to read it. Waiting for the last book to come out so I can binge
OMG YOU FIND FIGHT SCENES BORING TOO! I thought there was something wrong with me lolol. I really don’t engage with fight scenes in fantasy, a lot of the time I find myself unconsciously skimming through those. I much prefer the general/political intrigue and strategy scenes
Also I’m totally re-using the expression « super-baby »
Ohhhhh no now I feel bad for getting Best Served Cold cause it’s even more depressing 😂
Even in Sanderson...my fav author...I skim most of the fight scenes 😬 "This person hits this person...they dodge..." like...sorry, not that interesting to me haha.
And I'm so excited for Best Served Cold! I can handle it...maybe....but either way I was going to read it lol
I recommend An Alchemy of Masques and Mirrors. I'm not sure if it qualifies as grim dark, but it definitely has violence in it, but it focuses more on politics. And book 1 at least has a happy ending.
I'd rather it didn't qualify as Grimdark tbh, it brings me down too much 💀 If it's just political intrigue without making me want to die inside, I'd only see that as a positive lol
@@Bookborn Hah hah, just mentioned that because you said you were interested in what a grimdark book might look like if it focused more on politics than violence. Well, in what a Joe Abercrombie book might look like it at least. No Glotka in Alchemy of Masques and Mirrors unfortunately, but the two protags are pretty awesome in their own rights.
I would agree with a couple of comments in here. I'm on the second book of Age of Madness now and it has definitely dialled back quite a bit. Best Served Cold, The Heroes and Far Country are incredibly violent, even by Abercrombie standards. You might want to skip those if you're looking to ease into darker fantasy.
I ended up reading them all LOL I'm on Sharp Ends right now. It's violent for my taste but I love his character work so I'm just pushing through those elements haha
@@Bookborn I’m impressed you stuck with Best Served Cold - that’s a dark read. Sharp Ends is great world building. The Lankmar duo analogy is excellent.
I just finished The Emperor's Soul (and finally, all of Cosmere works) and am looking for my next book (series?). I am wondering if I should go with First Law triology, Farseer trilogy, Poppy War, or start Malazan... I would love to hear your thoughts!
Currently reading best served cold, his writing gets even better (something that I though imposible).
Someone just sent it to me so I'm going to be getting to it sooner rather than later. I'm excited!
one of the themes about magic in here is how much more power you get from having a vast amount of money. I felt that there were a ton of plots twisting around the seed mostly considering who gets sick and dies and who doesnt. I swear that I would have put real money on Bayaz dying from exposure but instead west who was nowhere near the thing gets sick and dies in the end.
Yeah, I'm very interested to learn more about the seed and I hope it's a subject of other novels in the world. Why did Bayaz not get sick? Is he actually and we just don't know?
@@Bookborn I suspect that if that same story continues the makers daughter can just jump out of the tower, since she can easily survive the fall. and then perhaps begin another convoluted plot with some other disillusioned characters to get the seed from Bayaz. With some sort of double cross to stop her from destroying the world.
I too was totally fine with West and his handling of the prince - like you said no tears shed. Until you see Black Dow's reaction. Anytime you do something that Black Dow approves of..... might be time to do an evaluation of things. I loved that scene.
Ugh such a good point. You're like...cool, I agree with Black Dow. Time to re-evaluate my life and choices
Great summary of this series. Yes, the first book was his first published book. I’ve seen interviews with him and he even says he has improved as a writer. The 3 stand alone books are great. Still violent 😢 He has a female lead character in the second trilogy. FYI: grim dark is a marketing tool. I think you know this. Game of thrones made it acceptable to have darker themes than what was accepted in fantasy.
Do you also read and review science fiction? A classic SF/fantasy that I haven’t seen too many people review is Stephen R. Donaldson’s the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. This is another groundbreaking series. I recommend it. I’ve read them several times.
I'm gonna be honest...it's the main reason I'm so grumpy about Game of Thrones. I feel like people look at the success of game of thrones and think "oh, it has to be brutal and dark and full of sex to be successful to a wide audience". And I'm convinced that's just not true!
I'll have to check him out! I really need to read more Sci-fi - it's part of my channel, technically, but i don't read nearly enough of it.
@@Bookborn We are a copy and paste society. If something is popular, then Hollywood, music, and many other industries feel they must do the same thing to reap the harvest from the original. I work in academics and we do this all of the time!
Donaldson is really fantasy. Not too graphic (there is one very bad part at the beginning of the first book). The Expanse is SF.
Keep up the good work!
So glad you enjoyed it! Burned through all 3 so fast :) .. some very interesting insights from you .. and now I need to get Best Served :0
Someone from Booktube sent it to me TODAY so I'm pretty stoked. Still need to take a break from the depressingness for a bit lol
I wouldn't have personally called it grim dark if it wasn't for everyone else. Just thought it was a great fantasy drama with a more realistic tone.
I think it's considered grimdark because they are all anti-heroes. Not a single viewpoint character could be considered a good person, which is different than fantasy set in a grim world.
I wanted to purchase this book the first law trilogy... thank you for the review!!! Happy reading to you!! 😊📖🎬
I hope you like it! I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it!
I found this really helpful. I doubt I'll read Abercrombie, kinda for the reasons you give in your "Did I like grimdark?" section. To riff on Chesterton, I *already know* that dragons exist. I want to know how they can be beaten, and grimdark doesn't seem to offer any answer there.
Great review! I love how objective you were able to be. I was the same way-I don’t think I am built for grimdark 😬 I started the first book and almost got halfway, but I just wasn’t enjoying the violence. I think listening to it as an audiobook made it a worse experience for me since I couldn’t skip the violent scenes easily (even though the narrator is amazing!) I appreciate Joe Abercrombie’s work, but it just wasn’t an enjoyable experience for me.
I’m so glad I’m not the only person who finds action boring! 😂 Have you tried Malice? I really enjoyed the plot and the characters, but I ended up just skipping the action sequences. John Gwynne is known for writing good combat, and he does a remarkable job! Just not my thing I guess 🤷🏼♀️😋
Oh man, I wouldn't have been able to listen to this AT ALL. I seriously skipped so much gruesome stuff (literally gagged when Glokta first cut off a finger). Grimdark is just not my personality tbh lol
Is Malice a fantasy romance book or am I thinking of something WAY different??
Yes! When he started chopping fingers, it made me rethink my decision to try out the genre. Pretty sure my fingers tingled for at least five minutes while I tried (unsuccessfully, I might add) to think of something different! 🤣 Maybe that is a little pathetic 😬 but there is a reason I did not choose Torturer as a career choice.
Malice is a fantasy book that seems to be gaining traction on booktube. The author John Gwynne does Viking re-enactments, and the action in his book reflects his knowledge well. It’s a good book! I just didn’t care for the action as much as I wanted to
I'm new to your channel and I'm enjoying your reviews. But out of curiosity, why the warnings? I see some reviewers share them on Goodreads, too. I just, I don't know, aren't we made of stronger stuff? I feel like the characters we read about are often strong, and I wonder, how would they have felt about trigger warnings? Why do YOU give them? Thank you for your response if you can respond. I'd like to understand why people share them. :)
For me, reading is about enjoyment. I do not feel that I am “not strong” because I personally am extremely affected by child harm ever since having children. To the point where I read a novel once where children were harmed significantly and couldn’t sleep after - I suffer from pretty bad anxiety and these things trigger it very badly. Everyone has different experiences in life and some of these can be traumatic enough that reading these things - even in fiction form - are not enjoyable.
As far as sex stuff, I just personally don’t enjoy reading it, and I always like when people can give me idea of the content of books I can decide for myself if I will enjoy it.
Do I think warnings should be required? No. Do I think this content shouldn’t be created? Absolutely not! But ultimately this content is created for enjoyment, and therefore everyone can make their own decisions on how to spend their enjoyment time :)
Glad you liked it, but if fighting, violence, torture and generally depressing endings aren't your cup o tea.. yeah, grimdark shouldn't be top of your list 😂
That darkness to me _is_ the attraction, going from enjoyable to hilarious 😅
Best Served Cold I'd say is about the same violence wise, but less torture off the top of my head. I think you're okay on this one.
The Heroes is a piece of war - so soldiers fighting, waiting, marching, grumbling, fighting. I loved it , and it has West..
Red Country is the Western style book, pretty different in tone from the others.
In his new trilogy we get a bit more industrialization, with more political and business scheming - alongside some fighting.
And he also has the Shattered Sea trilogy - this is YA or bordering that, so might be a lot easier to handle. Kinda grimdark-light. 😄
Overall.. I think you can find things to love in all of his books - but if you have to skip parts of the books to get through them, maybe wait a good while.
I didn't realize he had written something YA! Is it just YA because it's a little less grim or does it follow younger characters?
Yeah, I'm not going to become some grimdark lover anytime soon...or probably ever. But I think I'll read a few more Abercrombie just because I enjoyed his writing style so much.
@@Bookborn
The protagonist(s) are indeed a bit younger, I'd say mid teens or so. The series has gotten a lot less attention as it doesn't really draw in the usual grimdark crowd, but I liked it 😊
I think the Shanks need more fleshing out. I understood why they were created but they play such an odd role for little they impact the story. They kind of popped up in the second book and I guess it just made them feel like some kind of role of the dice random encounter.
They were there since the first book, since Logan talks about them killing his family and is being hunted by them, but I agree that it would've been cool to learn more. I was most curious to see if they had their own montivations like everyone else was shown to have; or were they really mostly mindless killing machines?
@@Bookborn I don't know if you've watched Daniel Greene's interview with Joe Abercrombie or any other interviews, but Joe says that he wanted to make a more 'real' or 'gritty' fantasy after years of reading Lord of the Rings or things like that. IMO, you can see so many instances where LotR was a direct influence. I feel like the Shanka or Flatheads were one of these, meant to be a direct reference to Orcs and Goblins. It would have been cool to learn more about them, but knowing that they were left behind from the age when the sons of Euz fought sounds very much like LotR as well.
Great review! I was looking something new to read and you have convinced me for giving a chance to these books
I hope you like them! They are def different than the fantasy I'm used to reading.
If the answer to 'Is it overhyped?' is yes, then... *body found floating by the docks*
Seriously though, I really enjoyed the trilogy as well, but I think the standalones are better. Best Served Cold is my favourite Abercrombie so far, but it's a violent, hateful vendetta so it's probably not your thing. Think Kill Bill 1&2 in a single book.
I've been looking over my shoulder this entire video...I expect to be floating by the docks any day now. (JK it wasn't overhyped)
I'm so torn on reading Best Served Cold. SO many people have said it's incredible, but they've also said it's more brutal which...can I handle it? To be determined.
I don't agree. I think Heroes for example was boring. Best Served Cold was on par with the trilogy and Red Country is great but not First Law great. So I like 2 of the stand alones but none were better than the glorious trilogy imo.
@@currangill430 If you consider a 500 page-battle boring . . . well. I liked it for what it was, it did what it wanted to do imo: show the terror and pointlessness of war. I can't judge Red Country yet, but BSC is my favourite because it's a revenge story - and as such, it had a clearly structured plot that I'd missed during Blade Itself :) Also, so far the prose has improved in every book!
@@thecontradictorian2225 I did a review on this on a First Law fb group. I'm just not a war junkie maybe or I maybe I just found it very campie just staying in one location. I think I would have liked it more if it was more broad? Like instead of battling over a hill maybe villages, towns, cities, etc would have made it more interesting for me? Idk.
@@currangill430 but then it wouldn’t have underlined the pointlessness as well as it did. All of those antiheroes fighting over a useless hill that’s called The Heroes.
It's never too grimdark until it creeps into your dreams... 🤣
Interesting review. Thanks! 🥰🤓😍
LOL that reminds me...my husband watched The Walking Dead back in the day (which I was never interested in for obvious reasons) and one time I literally saw like 30 seconds while I was walking past and had a nightmare that night about zombies. I'M SO WEAK GUYS.
awesome review! If I can ask, what book discords do you belong too?
I'm a part of Megan's Bookish Buddies (from the channel Megan's Reading Revelations), Fantasy Book Talk (from the channel Alex Nieves), and the Bookworm Lounge (from the channel Readbyandy). I'm also on the 17th shard discord and Shelf Space, but I frequent those less!
Thank you for the series review Bookborn. As someone who's afraid to start grimdark, this actually wants me to read. I don't like sexism in books ang I would totally skip some gory scenes here.
I skipped some gory scenes and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the book lol. I just can't read overly gruesome stuff
You need to check out Red Rising. It’s split between 2 trilogies that are separated by 10 years. The second trilogy is very political and is my favorite series of all time
My secret is that I read the first two red rising books...then DNF'd the series. I have a video in the pipeline basically titled "convince me to try again" lol. Everyone loves it SO Much and idk...I just wasn't motivated to continue.
@@Bookborn I am soooo with you! I tried with the first two books and COULD not continue..The main character is kind of annoying to say the least. See I can’t even remember his name... 🤦🏼♂️
@@LawlessLegends The writing in the first part of the first book was super rough. Then I really enjoyed the last half of the first book. The second book was fine but yeah... the characters just didn't resonate with me. I can't remember any of their names either, lol.
Last Argument of Kings is so epic! Such a great trilogy. Loved your review! The series keeps getting better and better and Abercrombie's writing some how improves with each book!
Along with Last Argument of Kings, book 4 Best Served Cold and book 9 The Trouble With Peace are my personal favorites.
Everyone seems to say Best Served Cold is there fav stand alone. I own it already and am going to try it...but I'm a little nervous since people say it's brutal
@@Bookborn It is brutal for sure, but not really any more or less brutal than anything from the trilogy. Since you handled the graphic violence in the trilogy well enough I'm sure you'll be fine.
Great video especially the list of triggers in the end. I’m still unsure though. What kind of torture is used in the book. I’m really sensitive to torture. I probably shouldn’t read this.
I would definitely NOT read this book if you are sensitive to torture. I am not particularly, but I found it pretty nauseating and skimmed a lot of those parts. It's a big theme and is centered around one of the main characters.
Haven’t heard of these series, but will gladly check out with your recommendation. ASOIF brought me here. Now I’m stuck.😂
I want to watch this but I’m only almost through the first book. So far I really like it. Love your channel and will definitely come back to this!
I don't think this video has spoilers
@@agnishom some spoilers not all
This video technically doesn't have any spoilers except for one three-min segment that I clearly delineate! But I get if you don't want to know anything about it!
New subscriber and super enjoyed this! I've had my eye on this series for a while and I think I'll bump it up a little on my tbr
Come back and report on how you liked it!
Looking at the First Law trilogy sitting on my shelf right now and struggling to decide whether or not to move it up in my TBR lol
It's really good...but also brutal...so be sure you're in the mood for it lol 😅
If you don't have reservations about violence, then you'll probably really like it.
Have you read The Lies of Locke Lamora? It's not really grimdark, I'm just curious
Not yet! It's on my list for this year. Everyone has told me it's so good
@@Bookborn I only started reading fantasy recently, I started with The Lies of Locke Lamora and then moved on to The First Law. I finished Best Served Cold a few days ago and it was sooo goood. Especially with the audiobook. The Lies of Locke Lamora is still my favorite of everything I've read so far, although Best Served Cold and the other First Law books are very close.
Great review, just finished this series. Glokta is an absolutely awful person and yet I loved his character so much, particularly his inner monologue. I also found him and Ardee to be unexpectedly sweet together?
Great review. I strongly recommend the new trilogy Abercrombie is writing set in the same world but a bit later in time. Only the first two books A Little Hatred and The Trouble with Peace have been released so far but I love them! They have much stronger female characters and more female perspectives. Also there is more focus on the rebellion of the common folk against the unjustness of the system. And the battle scenes are told from so many perspectives that they are more interesting than usual (like you I tend to have the urge to skip battle scenes in fantasy).
Oh and Bayaz is less prominent (so far). I mean he is a great character but I was ab-so-lutely fuming at him for combining being so evil AND powerful in the original trilogy.
Everyone has been saying the new series is amazing, AND more politically focused. I'll have to check it out!
I just got A Little Hatred yesterday & am looking forward to starting it! I’ll probably just go ahead & buy The Trouble With Peace right away, since I loved The First Law Trilogy & his three stand alone books (Best Served Cold, The Heroes & Red Country).
@@Bookborn The new series is amazing. But I feel some parts are even darker (as they refer child labor or the French revolution ) Some parts are also funnier. And the growth as a writer only continued.
In response to your craving a more political focus, I think the newest trilogy that Abercrombie is writing (called the Age of Madness) should be perfect for you. It has a heavier focus on politics and less violence and action so far. It's on the second book in the trilogy, and the last one comes out in September. Between that series and the First Law trilogy there are three standalone books, but I've seen people skip the standalone books and not have a problem. It adds a lot to read them, but they aren't fully required, imo.
So many people are mentioning this one so I need to check it out- more political and less war is DEF up my ally. And kind of exciting that it isn't finished yet...maybe I can get the first two in before the third comes out this year.
Thanks for the review! Just started it today
Oooh come back and report!
IMO, the three following standalone novels are even better, although you probably wouldn't care for Heroes. (and, The Blade Itself was his debut novel.)
By recommendation from others, I'm probably skipping heroes based on my preferences. And as strong as the Blade Itself was, it is amazing that you can see his writing improve from the second to the third book.
Great review! Thank you for your thoughts!! :D
Nice review!
Glad you like it!
SO happy you loved it. Abercrombie is one of my favourite authors for so much reasons.
and the best part is that it's just get better, the standalones trilogy is even better (aside fron Red Country which is good but not great) and the new trilogy is even better then that lol.
Also I feel like I recommended him here before but Mark Lawrence is great for a grimdark book that avoid the most terrible stuff (not Prince of Thorns tho you will not like that one).
More recent read for me was We Ride the Storm by Devin Madson. Im not sure if its classifies as grimdark but it had a bit of the feelings and it wqas great
I've been NEEDING to read Mark Lawrence. My husband read and loved Prince of Thorns but very explicitly told me I would hate it and should not read it lol. Not too long ago I bought one of his books that I just haven't gotten to yet. It's something about the stars? A girl and the Stars or something?
@@Bookborn oh the Girl and the Stars is pretty good but I would recommend reading Red Sister first but TGATS is getting a sequel soon so it might be a good time to pick it up
I might give this a try. Not sure yet. Thanks for the review!
Yes, slightly overhyped. I finally read at at the start of the year and it was a 4/5 for me. I really liked it but didn’t measure up and I found some issues. My brother in law quit after book 1. I’ll still def continue, already own one or two stand alones.
I did enjoy most of the character arch’s, very different to see them come full circle.. BUT I hate Ferros. I found her pointless in the end. “Here hold this rock”
Yeah I think it's for sure a taste thing. Like some people just can't stand that nothing happens. If you aren't a character person, this book is NOT for you. I think Abercrombie isn't super great at giving his female characters things to do. I love how he develops them, but then they don't get to do a ton. Even in Best Served Cold, which is technically all about this main female character Monza, I felt the male characters took up more of the interesting parts of the story.
If you haven't jumped into the Age of Madness trilogy yet or the standalones, I fully recommend giving the audiobooks a try.
Not a huge audio book fan, even though I've heard they are great for this series. I'll probably read it first and then try audio for the reread!
@@Bookborn what don't you like about them?
Ive enjoyed every one of Joe Abercrombies books!!👍😀👍
I'm not sure I'll be able to read ALL of them, based on some things I've heard, but I'm excited to read more!
Red Country, to the best of my recollection is far less fight scene-y and more Oregon Trail-ish, but without dysentery and MUCH better characters. :)
And I have some bad news about the characters you wanted to protect...
Noooo....I figured 😭 West is dead by my estimations (although again, we didn't see him die, but he was almost wasted away) so that leaves dogman to turn terrible (ugh) or Yulwei to be alive and turn terrible (double ugh)
@@Bookborn I just said I had bad news. There are worse things than death. ;)
One of the things I really enjoyed in these books (I recently finished The Trouble With Peace) was that they were NOT happy endings...like real life. :) I LOVE Logan...see how that works out for me? The trilogy was good, but I was hooked in Best Served Cold...there is a scene where you JUST KNOW what is about to happen, it has to happen and then it doesn't! BAM! A major recurring character is totally altered for the rest of the existing books, and again, not in the happy fluffy way. From then on Mr. Abercrombie had me.
@@WJRobbins125 I'm sort of the opposite because I think life is happy and I'm an optimist and I like optimistic stories 😂 I did enjoy this a lot, obviously though, and there are certain parts that def feel more realistic (particularly the effects of war). Either way, though, I won't be a grimdark connoisseur anytime soon.
@@Bookborn Like most genres, I don't realize I'm in one until after the fact. :) I was all the way through The Reckoners series before I knew it was considered YA. I mean I'm far from young now, and barley an adult. This used to just be under Dystopian, but grimdark sounds cooler I guess.
West understandably gets a lot of flack for hitting Ardee and losing control like he did. But I think many people also miss the context of the world they live in and have grown up in. Their home situation that involved a lot of domestic violence from their dad. And it might have been relatively common for their friends etc in the north to have similar experiences so it could have almost felt normal but still wrong. Like in migrant communities getting physical punishment is literally a joke among second generation teens / millennials.
Not to mention they live in an ultra patriarchal society, with very rigid social rules for men and women, esp women. Where chastity is considered to be the most important thing a woman has. A world where esp for Jezal as an aristocrat. Even a woman just giving her own opinions.. her having opinions to begin with was absolutely mind blowing. Ariss dan Kaspa had that lady with her to make sure everything was proper at all times. Ardee is a wildcard. A girl that quickly lost her virginity at a very young age. Got pregnant. Miscarried because her dad got so angry he kicked her off the stairs etc.
She resents and is angry with West for having "left her" with her father. Which is very unfair towards West. Meanwhile now she is at the Agriont she also does not feel like she fits in or belongs. She feels like everyone looks down on her. Which they probably do. But she also makes it easy for them by not conforming to the standards of their society, norms and values. The resentment towards West for him "abandoning" her combined with the feeling of being constantly judged, constantly looked down upon mixed with the alcohol causes her to be even more unpredictable and dangerous.
Meanwhile West is working his ass off to create something of himself. To secure a good future for his family, inc Ardee whom he so obviously adores despite all her faults. Remember, West grew up with these same ideas about women etc. Sure it's not as strict as Jezal because he's a commoner. Still chastity, family honor these things likely are extremely important to him. And it likely literally hurts him like what his sister does is a personal attack, something that can ruin not only his "honor" but also everything he worked for. All the work he did to try and make his name a legitimate one.
Then it's not so crazy, inhuman or evil of even an otherwise very good man to lose control in the middle of the most intensely stressful and chaotic time in his life up until that point (to the point where I thought he might have cancer or something because of his constant migraines, figured that would be the reveal but not the way it was). When his little sister, is running around trying to seduce the biggest womanizer, scmbag who sees you as his lesser. Whom you are certain would never marry her, only toy with her, ruin her reputation (and with that yours) then move on to marry Ariss dan Kaspa or the like. When you know your sister has already gotten herself in trouble with her pursuit of ... love
He of course instantly and intensely regrets what he does. And this regret is a massive theme for the rest of every part of his story and journey. But other than that West is nothing but a good and decent guy. He and Yulwei are the only guys who are truly good. West will constantly try to see things from the other side. No mater how bad the other side is. He always tries to help. He tries to avoid violence. He never kills innocents, only kills the rpst crown prince who was already dead considering Beyaz's plans.
It's really sad how he ends up. But that's what I loved about the book. In this world no one necessarily gets what they deserve. I mean we're all sympathetic towards Glokta but did he really deserve Ardee? Who truly seems to insist on being a real wife to him. Even cleaning up his filth in the morning. He gets the second most powerful position in the entire empire after Bayaz. He gets until riches, a beautiful wife, all his enemies are gone, he's got the strongest ally in the world etc.
Meanwhile Logen is fkd. There is no way he can ever have a normal life as long as he can't take control of the bloody nine. At heart he's a decent guy. But fk .. that scene with TulDuru made me put down my book for a minute. Was annoyed that it seemed like Ferro had gone crazy when Logen came to visit. But when Bayaz came she was ok. Then suddenly she had the same powers as Tolomei because of the stone (which was pretty cool). But I mean she obsessed about Logen just as much as he did about her. He came back for her etc. But she didn't even bother. If they missed each other or something went wrong in another way it would have made more sense. Kinda weird that Ferro would act so crazy infront of Logen and then not even bother to explain or say anything. Esp when he took the effort to visit her so it should tell her something at least.
As soon as Bayaz said his study was “fire, force, and will” I knew this wasn’t gonna go well
lol I was not prepared. That was good close reading to pick up on that!
I enjoyed First Law as well. I liked Logan's character arc and how the concept of the "bloody nine" was handled. Spoilers Below
The bloody nine was still left up in the air a bit. The interpretation I lean towards is that the "bloody nine" as a excuse for his behavior. He had multiple chances to leave the violence behind but ended up staying. In the end, he has chosen to remain a cold blooded killer and the brilliant part is that I still love him as a character. First Law is by far my favorite grimdark and the only other grimdark book I have enjoyed is The Grey Bastards by Jonathan French. It has that bit if humor that is similar to Abercrombie. I have yet to read the sequel but it is on my tbr.
The ending with the bloody nine was pretty chilling. I really had believed it was some sort of spirit/magic thing controlling him. When you get that scene with Bethod and he's like...Logen, you were the one who was violent. You were the one pushing me to kill. That was just SO SAD and SO CHILLING and just so well done.
Really enjoyed your review, thanks!
Loved this review and dI love First Law, hope you'll get to read the other books in the series as well!
As you don't like the violence, you should probably avoid reading The Heroes. It's just the minutiae of a three-day battle. Sure, that includes a lot of negotiation and power play between commanders and stuff but it's all focussed around the battle.
You also said that you enjoy more of the politics and I think you might like the second Abercrombie trilogy better. There is still fighting but it's a lot more "violence is a tool for doing politics", rather than "war is the purpose". Also, the Union is undergoing an Industrial Revolution, so reasons and means of violence are changing. Plus, the second trilogy is full of female POVs. Including the one inquisitor and, so far, we haven't had any scenes that are anywhere near as vile as the finger scene.
Your comments agree with what everyone else has been saying! They are like...you might enjoy his new series, but stay away from Heroes lol
When you read the book vs listening to it you can give the characters whatever voices you choose. 🤷🏽♂️
I know I'm late but would anyone else wanna see like an individual character review for logen cause I actually made a chart for the differences between him and the bloody nine, feel like a few things slipped through the cracks
As someone who only watched 2/3 of game of thrones (the other third I watched the back of my eyelids) and regretted watching about a third of what I DID watch, I appreciate this take a lot as I am with you on the whole torture/sexual violence thing. I do think I'll read it, but...we'll see.
I loved it but i do haveone issue with it. The overarching plot takes too long to develop, like most of book 2 feels like" this is cool but whats the point?" And by the end i lovedit but again, what was the point. I guess beating kalul, but that was not important for many of the characters.
You are making me want to re-read this trilogy !
I just finished Last Argument of Kings a few days ago. Loved the series, and the Named Men were my favourite, so I'm totally with you on Dogman. I've not done much grimdark otherwise except for Prince of Thorns, which I practically hated - looking back on the main character now makes my skin crawl. Definitely interested in Best Served Cold and the others though. Sharp Ends might be worth a look, it's short stories from the First Law world, so you get some of the characters in more bite-sized chunks (I've only read one of the stories myself so can't comment on which characters or how good it is!).
I'm always a sucker for short stories so I'm going to look into it. I didn't realize he had so much set in this world
The story felt incomplete to me. I really enjoyed it and will read more in the series, but I felt like some major plotlines went completely unresolved.
As much as I adore this trilogy, the Age of Madness has potential to usurp the original as my favourite fantasy trilogy depending on how the third book goes.
I've heard it's sooo good. I won't get to it by the time it releases (the last one is coming out in september, yeah?) But I hope to get to heroes soon.
@@Bookborn it's amazing. Hope you enjoy the Heroes, its one of my favourites.
As someone who just got A Little Hatred, seeing the good reviews for it in these comments is making me very excited to get started.
The Age of Madness Trilogy that follows this trilogy is a better written and will more likely be your cup of tea because of the political stuff. While the First Law has a strong grip on me and will always be my favorite this next installment I can see more people liking mostly because of the new crop of characters.
You will not like Best Served Cold at all if you couldn't handle the violence in the first trilogy. Best Served Cold is a very brutal book. Heroes has a lot of violence too, it's a war story (I personally didn't like it). Red Country is a little less violent than Heroes and Best Served Cold but there's a lot of violence and deaths. I don't think Joe will ever shy away from the violence tbh. But I hear the first book out of the sequel trilogy is very political based. Maybe try out his YA books, Severed Seas?
Well I have Best Served Cold so I'm going to move forward and trying anyway even if it kills me 😂
@@Bookborn It's Kill Bill Joe Abercrombie style. It's a beautiful change of events you'll see when you read it. The mc Monza I was iffy until the halfway point. The thing I like about it is after each part there's a Monza backstory like how she got into power etc. By part 3 I understood her motives. At first I thought she was just a mary sue/ man with boobs but in Joe style you go "I see what you did there, Joe."
I'll say this, I don't agree with statement that the stand alones ARE BETTER I think they're on par. I think BSC felt very First Law with the amount of traveling you do around Styria.
BSC > RC> H
I'm on page 124 of the blade itself. It's a very cynical book but I suppose he does write decent characters. I don't find this type of fantasy compelling though. It's the same with Game of thrones.
I think the biggest complaint of his novel is the pacing; it definitely has slower pacing, although it reminds me a lot of LOTR in a sense because it's one long story split into three parts. It certainly isn't for everyone!
@@Bookborn He is great at what he does but I can't imagine getting 'book depression' from it so far. I think he has fantastic technique and writes sarcastic, cynical, bleak characters very well. He's very good at using the 3rd limited pov as was Robert Jordan. But political grim dark stories just don't captivate me much.
Joe Abercrombie is the only Grimdark author I have read and liked.
The others Grimdark books I have read seem like they were written by some 30 year old in his basement who has now been told he can talk about sex and swear. The books I tried just seemed to have graphic sex, graphic sexual assault, graphic violence and swearing, for no apparent reason, all the time.
An overhyped series ? No but an overhyped series is the dark tower. Even the ending to the series alone shows u how overhyped that entire series is
Totally agree!
Glokta not mentioned in best characters? How is that possible :D
There’s still violence and war but the Age Of Madness sequel trilogy is very politically focused so I think those might be more up your alley! The world is hitting an industrial revolution at that point so there’s more sociopolitical conflict. Also a better male/female character balance, 4 out of the 7 main POVs are women in that trilogy.
You're the second person to mention Age of Madness so I def need to go look into it
@@Bookborn For what it’s worth, you might still want to read the three First Law stand-alones first, since they take place between the two trilogies and lay some of the background for the characters the Age of Madness is concerned with. You’d probably be able to keep up with most of the major plot beats but would miss some of the subtler characters moments.
Yulwei is most likely didn't survive, I think. Given the circumstances he's in there with 'someone'. Yes he has 'that' ability, but I still think not.
Keep in mind, that in Grimdark, there is no really 'good' person. Everyone has their own purposes to do things. Wether they are good or bad. Even 'Khalul' has his own purposes why he do 'this' thing.
I'm sure Yulwei isn't good, like you said, but I couldn't help holding on to one ship in the night lolol. I think it's most likely that he's dead...although somebody made a comment that made me think we get more of him in other books (but could be flashbacks...)
Very good review UwU
Thanks! 😁
Grimdark? I have never heard of this. What is it
Well... I am not complaining that i got your video in my recommendation, but I just started the book yesterday... How the hell does youtube know that? 🙄🤷🏻♂️
BIG BROTHER IS ALWAYS WATCHING. But really, our phones must be listening to us, right cause this happens to me a lot lol
The universe wants me to read it. Grim dark. Never read one. But Glokta got me hooked. Let's give it a shot.
The female POV characters in his new trilogy are amazing.
I've heard that! But I've also heard the new trilogy is straight up war scenes, which tend to be my least favorite part, so IDK if I'm going to try it...
Definitely recommend reading the standalones which take place between the first and second trilogy (uninteresting opinion: The Heroes is my personal favorite).
What I love about his sequel trilogy is that the plot is much more focused around politics, scheming etc. compared to his original trilogy. Of course there are some big war scenes but they are much more interesting than his previous work (can't say why without spoiling) in my opinion. And this comes from someone who usually finds war scenes/combat in general boring.
Would be really awesome if you gave A Little Hatred a try down the road but you shouldn't force yourself if grim dark isn't your cup of tea.
Kind Regards Sengil
I just finished, and this books are depressing 😢 and i love them
Hey just found your channel and enjoy your reviews and videos... but you just said dogman is not a good person, and that’s kinda going a little too far
lol I mean...he's number two on my list of people I want to protect with my life, but you have to be realistic about these things - he has a past
his standalone "the heroes" is about a 3-day battle, so definitely it is not in your type 😂
Thanks for the warning....think I'm going to go ahead and skip that one lolol
@@Bookborn skip it and you miss out on so much plot and character development that affects what comes later. Besides, his fight scenes are done in a very unique way. It may be about a huge battle but it's not hundreds of pages of nothing but fighting.
I wouldn't say the term standalone is fitting for the books that follow the initial trilogy. Yes they have self contained stories but there's so much in them that either follows up on something previous or sets up what is to come that they're still just one long ongoing series.
In my opinion, all grim dark should be overhyped, especially when it’s written by Joe Abercrombie.
What other grimdark do you want to overhype to me? Anything that won't kill me?
@@Bookborn ASOIAF. It’s what inspired Joe Abercrombie
@@championcitypeople7921 I haven't/won't read ASOIAF for personal reasons, so I'll have to miss out on that one!