ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- In the last 6 months I have remade my movement-based roguelike game, originally made in Unity, twice in two different game engines.
0:00 Intro
0:21 Unity
2:40 Alternatives
3:17 Godot
6:14 Bevy
7:21 ECS
10:35 Game (Bevy Version)
Discord Server: / discord
Tools I use:
- Game Engine: Unity, Godot, Bevy
- Code editor: VSCode, Neovim
- Graphics: Affinity Designer, Figma
- Video Editing: Davinci Resolve, Motion Canvas - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![7 Reasons Godot Triumphs: Porting My Game from Unity [Kohlrabi Starship Devlog #6]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yz6ogYQNa6Q/mqdefault.jpg)
I have pinned this comment to clarify some things about the video.
I've noticed, that there is some confusion about the negative things I pointed out about Unity. While the main three points presented in this video are valid (at least to some degree), I did not make it clear that my motivation to switch away from Unity is only partly because of these points. I wanted to explore other game engines simply for the joy of learning and having some new experiences.
Also I did initially plan to use Godot for the project - switching to yet another game engine was not part of that plan. It just so happened that development was slowed down by the mentioned bug of Godot 4. I then randomly tried out Bevy and Rust and found it to be extremely fun to work with. I did not abandon Godot because of the negative things I mentioned. Moving to bevy was simply due to an unlucky situation I found myself in. I still think Godot is great but Godot 4 was sadly not working for me and it looks like it still isn't.
Game dev is not my job. It is just something I really enjoy doing in my free time. And I believe it is important to also try other options. Unity is still probably the best engine for professional game development.
My goal with this video was to show the journey of me switching game engines and NOT to say that one engine is better than the other. And I pointed out some positive and negative things I encountered along the way.
Now I get it 😂 I thought firstly that you are just crazy 😅
Good luck with learning new stuff!!
you didnt actually pin this
I thought it was clear, nobody leaves a game engine for only 3 key reasons! There might be some stand-out reasons, but if the engine doesn't "feel" right then you can't really list all the points...bit like life decisions come to think of it 🤣
@@NightHutStudio what's clear for someone couldn be not clear for another one 😁
@@artsurock yeah I agree, very true :)
Hey! Creator and lead developer of Bevy here. Loved the video. Let me know if you encounter any issues / have any ideas. We're still in the process of building out Bevy and feedback from developers is important to us!
Hi, great to see you here! I'm really excited to see what the future of Bevy will look like (especially with the editor on the horizon). It's been a pleasure to develop games with Bevy so far and I hope to contribute one day, when I'm more experienced with rust and Bevy :D
And I doubt Cart is going to start charging for Bevy installs XP
Legend
@@loganwoodbury4050that's more likely to happen from the Rust foundation, sometimes they do stuff like that
I am interested in machine learning and simulation, and other kinds of visual simulations, no matter if it is a game or something usefull. But normally machine learning has no 2d or 3d (phyiscs engine) and sound.. and U.I. .. all the things that game programming environments DO have usually. I want to get something up quick and running. Godot language is way too slow for having 1000's of objects, and using C++ is.. difficult and not editor integrated anymore. Godot projects also become very nested and cloggy. I think Bevy is the answer
Well this aged like fine wine.. looks like you dodged a bullet with unity!
And this comment aged like milk, looks like you Unity is back with a good deal again. :P
@@SnakeEngine keep telling yourself that, they are going to do it again they got away with it and implemented and horrible fee anyways
@@Nylnezz Yeah, and they will face a repeated punishment and backpedal again. So you will be save as a Unity dev, it's not like Unity has a monopoly in the game-engine space. Imagine few years down the line, you are like "shit, the Unity engine is thriving while my freaking Godot project doesn't scale and is full of bugs. Leaving Unity was the stupidest decision I have ever made that robbed me years of time". So just keep going with Unity if you want to get somewhere :)
@@SnakeEngine what the fuck are you talking about?
@@SnakeEngine i really do hope unity gets his management in check, and i agree that godot lacks scalability for now, but its good to have choice when a corporation is only out to get you money more and more dont you think
Next week:
Why I wrote my own game engine in my own programming language
Falling down the same rabbit hole as Randy lol
This video aged extremelly well man. 😂
I love how your game looks and the genral concept of it. Keep it up
I like what you are doing. You focus on long term goals and putting time into something you enjoy doing and crafting quality work with patience and dedication, not something rushed for views and money. I look up to you for this. Keep going strong bro 💪 ❤
Glad to hear from you again! At the moment Unity remains my absolute favorite game engine, but especially Bevy seems very promising in the future
Yoooo! I was JUST rewatching your videos yesterday and thought I wanted you to come back!
Can't wait to see your game come forward!
You avoided a bullet man 😢
Great video :)! It was pretty interesting seeing you troubleshoot your inconveniences with the game engines. Hope everything goes smoother from now on!
Very nice! One small correction: ECS is only a part of DOTS in Unity. The burst compiler and jobs system are also included in DOTS.
Yep, your right. I probably should have mentioned that
@@timberdev Eh, it's an easy mistake to make. The only reason I even made the comment is because I used to think that too. Great video by the way, and I hope development goes well!
Wow, doesn't matter now. I'm so glad I never learned that shit engine. I feel bad for all of you goons that wasted your time but I always hated c# and the engine just felt clunky. NGL, I'm pretty smug, the amount of times i was tempted to use it... glad I never did. Dumb engine.
@@mrmaniac9905 No need to be so harsh about it
@@bbrainstormer2036yeah you're right I did have an overbearing tone. I apologize
amazing. it's cool that more and more people notice rust and use it in their projects. i heard about bevy and it's nice to see that you enjoyed using it
Looks like you made the right choice moving away from unity!
Great video, good luck with your game!
I think stability is currently Godot's biggest issue (at least for the 4.x versions). It is a bit annoying at times, but personally I'm fine with it because of pretty much everything the engine offers. I feel like the issue with code growing more complex and ugly is possible to be avoided, provided you design your system with avoiding coupling in mind from the get go.
Real shame you came across a pretty nasty bug, but I'm glad you're enjoying your time with Bevy! Excited to see more
I've enjoyed this video, I've actually gone a pretty similar, if shorter journey, where I tested out Unity and Godot but ultimately felt like they were restrictive. Then I tried implementing a small CLI game in engine-less rust for a while, but later I found Bevy. The ECS relieved lifetime headaches, but it was configurable enough that I could make the game without being locked into a bunch of functionality I didn't care for. I migrated my game to Bevy and have loved it, plus the community has been really supportive =] Really happy to see an experienced game dev validating that choice!
Great video! Learning about ECS and bevy makes me want to do more composition focused design in my project now haha
This video is so cleaaaan, nice editing man. good work!
Holly, I've been waiting a video from you for reeeaaaaaly long time. Glad you came back budy!
Neat - been following you for sometime your game looks good.
Just one thing about Godot - the event system / Observer pattern is designed to decouple nodes. I am not sure how the C# works in godot but the build in GDScript supports both Composition and inheritance . I am sure you look at the resource class that is used to store data
Godot 4 I think need more time in the oven - but that is my view.
Really keen to see where you take your project.
yeah I was kinda confused about that, because the node architecture was designed to support both inheritance and composition.
@@squee-z6442 @pigdev has a video on it also @RedefineGamedev has a good course on AI - Both show both inheritance and composition - I like using resources - there is a video in my dead youtub - good luck
Seems you were 4 weeks ahead of our time, lmao.
Regarding the references in Unity, I usually just use a script that houses all my references for my player and have other scripts just take a reference to the reference "hub". Idk if thats good practice but it works for me
You can achieve the same principle of Systems -> Components from ECS in Unity by using MonoBehaviours -> ScriptableObjects and a more clean Architecture between each MonoBehaviour. Try to learn about programming design patterns and it will help a lot with OOP (Dependendy Injection, Singletons, Observer Pattern, just to name a few).
Regarding the Inheritance over Composition, that's a principle of SOLID - Interface Segregation (look it up, its very useful) and it can also be applied in Unity with C#, just as well as you described it for ECS.
I'm sure ECS has its advantages, but Unity isn't the cause of you experiencing these issues - your coding architecture is.
Hope to continue seeing more from your journey.
I was thinking about that all throughout the unity chapter, it does have it's quirks sometimes (especially if u made the dumbass decision of using the beta versions for a slightly better looking editor xD) but if you know how to properly use unity it is the most powerful 2d engine out there (I'm not going to get into unity/unreal here).
Can't blame the dev though, ecs is a challenge to wrap your head (especially if you're already used to GOs and OOP) around at this current stage and it isn't properly implemented in 2D yet. Plus ecs in unity is more of a system for optimisations rather than just making a normal 2d game where maximum performance isn't required.
the reason ECS is many developers preferred choice is that the design patterns you suggested are built into the foundation of the engine. Bevy's `Resource` trait is a singleton, systems themselves are dependency injection and the observer pattern is the `Changed` filter.
in Unity and C#, genuine proficiency is required to write elegant, performant code. in Bevy with Rust, you cannot write code that isn't elegant and performant.
All of these patterns are great and all, but they don't scale in terms of performance. OOP as implemented in C# and other languages forces your CPU to do a ton of pointless pointer chasing just to call a function or read a single value from memory. ECS on the other hand can store all of your data in linear memory which is much better for CPU cache utilization.
I don't see this mentioned in comments, but this is the main reason why ECS is becoming popular and why Unity has DOTS in the first place.
Tbh, I consider OOP itself an overall anti-pattern for games and high performance systems in general. Java and C# being the worst examples of it. Rust's way of doing functional programming makes all these patterns much more inherent to the way you write code and it doesn't feel like you're wrangling the language to follow idioms.
@@Sergeeeek ecs makes serialization trivial. That's my favorite part. That, and faster entity query
That's an awesome explanation of how Bevy works!
Nice video, looking forward to the next devlog!
these videos are so satisfying to watch :O
Indie developers would do anything other than game development itself it seems
Might be onto something :)
For us gamedevs, making games & learning new tools is more fun than playing em
amazing editing, subbed!
Such a good vid, looking forward to see more
Totally support the decision! I am looking forward to playing the game!
Best explained Bevy concepts ever!😮
Welcome to the bevy team!
Glad you can upload again and can't wait to play your game when it came out🎉
Also get some rest:)
What the... He is going for a full pivot. Best of luck with bevy, I wouldn't go for a game engine without an editor, even if it implements ECS
Really well made video love it!
i finally have a rudimentary understanding of ECS, thankyou
Can wait to see continue your game in godot I been using for 4 months now and this very inspiring to see someone work in godot.
Did you missed the last third of the video? ;-)
Hey Man love your content !!! ❤
Ayy is that motionCanvas I see? Glad to find another appreciator.
Your video is well made dude. Composed and edited in a catchy way.
I am expecting this title in one of your near videos:
"DOTS makes me return to unity again!"
i'd be surprised: everyone i know who's tried both bevy and dots agrees that dots doesn't feel at all good to use in comparison. bevy's ecs is just so nice to use.
@@laundmo they're trying to turn C# into C++ with Burst, no wonder it feels shoehorned.
Awesome video. Thanks for this great content
Cant get enough of these vids
Wow thanks for this. I've been looking for a game engine recently and my day job used F#, where we have a separation of data and behavior. Bevy looks like it'd be great fit.
I'm glad a new video is out after waiting for a while. I thought you might of dropped the project.
Cant wait to see full game am sure u be successful
How do you make the amazing animations/visuals comparing Unity and bevy’s composition vs inheritance structures?
Very well made video!
I dissagree with your 3rd point. Its fully possible to use unity as a glorified renderer. Also unity doesn't force you to use inheritance? You can easily make modular systems, or really use any architecture (and again use it as a glorified renderer) however...
In light of the contraversy. No reason to regret switching!
Very interesting video :) What did youuse to animate those nodes and diagrams (with and without code)? I love how the arrows and rectangles slide to show the hirearchy and internal components. It's awesome. I would love to know how you achieve that.
That's crazy! Great content. I should start learning rust too.
Woah, hey, Motion Canvas in the wild, nice!
Wow, you intrigued me with the engine on Rust, would be super interesting to learn
To be honest I love Unity's style and the structure it kind of guides you towards. I try to mostly never store references to other scripts, and instead use static events for communication (Observer design pattern), and I love creating singletons with a private instances and public static methods, like Unity's own systems (GameObject, Input).
You can come up with extremely clean solutions by following the most suitable design patterns for your situation.
As for the editor being slow and cumbersome and bloated, I could not agree more, it's the single most frustrating point about Unity, but I manage to tolerate it just because Unity's scripting solutions are just brilliant in my opinion; literally no matter what it is you're trying to do, you can find a creative way to implement it in a clean way and probably very easily and quickly.
I'm definitely trying other engines in the future, but for now, I think Unity is a solid tool if you're experienced with it specifically.
Singletones are bad. There are more suitable aproaches that are better. Try Dependency Injection (vcontainer as a container).
I agree. Even though the mix of depreciated and experimental features is frustrating, and the time I spend watching Unity compile my scripts really adds up, the range of solutions makes easy and fun to experiment.
As for the issues related to my own approach: well as my projects balloon in scope and complexity, the number of references and the confusing mess of coupled components just starts to make my head spin. i know there must be a better way and I’m totally intrigued and enticed by the observer pattern for its modularity. But I have a hard time putting the concept into practice and meaningfully changing my approach to scripting. How did you familiarize yourself with the observer pattern? Tutorials only take you so far yknow I need some experienced insight for nonspecific implementations and your comment really got me thinking about the possibilities
@@robwaters2948 I don't think I'm experienced enough to give advice but I'll give you how I think about it I guess?
I try to make my scripts do one thing and one thing only, and I'm completely fine with having tons of scripts even if each script is only a few lines of code; what's more important is separation of concerns, so that when I find a bug related to X, I know exactly where to look, because X is handled fully in this file (or directory if it's a multi-script system kind of deal).
Before writing anything I usually ask myself quickly, should this really be here? If I'm grabbing a reference to another script to call something on it, then probably not. I go with a "to whom it may concern, event X has just occurred" approach, and only expose static events.
For example, if I have a clipboard script that manages copying, storing, and pasting stuff, and on copy I want to:
-Play a sound
-Change the color of something in the UI
-Potentially more in the future
I expose a static public event at Clipboard.onCopy, and invoke it when I copy, "to whom it may concern, a copy event just occurred". And in my SFX manager, UI, or whatever other script, I can subscribe to that and do whatever I want there.
In regards to what's an event and what's not, I start with 0 events in all scripts, and when I find I need to know that X happened in some script, instead of grabbing a reference to it, I go add the event on it for now and future use. Over time my system events build up, and I don't have unused events because I only add them when I need them for the first time.
I don't know if this kind of pattern is good or bad, but it's personally served me well, I've yet to get bitten by it. Let me know what you think though!
@@robwaters2948 and for you, answer are use DI and containers. Try it first, implement that in your project and try to follow the strict rules of container, and after some time you will start to understand how to make your code better. Observer also a not good patter xD. When I create my code, I imagine every method as empty room with me in it. Then I try to implement logic of said method. If I need something, then I try to recieve that trough window that I have. Said window is a method arguments. Only trrough that window I can recieve all that I need. If I create class - I try recieve only needed things trough constructor arguments. After some time I start to make very good code, that live years without changing in my projects. Best patterns is strategy and dependency inversion.
what we thinking now buddy
This was such a good video, informative and I love the animations and design! Could I ask what font do you use??
well what do you think about unreal approach?(Unreal Uses Actor model and have many differents with other game engines)
Hmm... Maybe I'll try out Bevy for my next game. From what you described, looks like something I might like.
Your videos are looking so smooth. How do you make the animations which you showed for systems?
Really nice devlog. What tool/program do you use to animate your videos, they look so good!
Literally the same path and opinion! Good luck with your game!
I hope that bevy and rust will alow you to develop features that unity and Godot would have made to hard or to unstable. Can't wait to see how this turns out
Nice Game! Keep up the good work.
Hey! I was wondering if you were still developing. I can't wait to see the game come out!
Nice new video.
you should add passive abilities for the player
Your thumbnails are so clean and soft a piece of art indeed. Bdw what code editor do you use?
The research part is the most instructive part lol
Great video!
I looked at Bevy some time ago (just out of interest), but i wasn't really prepared to spend a lot of time learning it when I was still intermediate at Unity.
Fast Forward to today, and for obvious reasons I'm breaking away from Unity - I've started in Godot, and it's kinda similar enough to Unity that I haven't really felt that my Game Dev journey has been reset. However I may well give Bevy another try - Are there any tutorials you would specifically recommend?
One question:
what songs did you use in the background? (specifically the one in the godot section)
I thought the animation style looked familiar. The videos look great in Aarthificials tool! Good job!
Finally a new video
FINALLLLLLLYYYYY
To be honest, most problems you have described in this video are code related, thus on you, you can confidently use composition instead of inheritance with unity. That said, rust is a great choice.
The slow bloated editor and closed source is not really a code issue.
You can also use composition in godot
@@ArnoVaiassemblies definition can help you with editor performance if you'll use them correctly. And there are tools such as Odin Inspector to make your editor comfortable and efficient
@@bonsaipropagandaYeah I don’t quite understand why he thinks inheritance is too heavily relied upon Godot. Composition can be easily done with the node system as long as the component is programmed well enough to work in dynamic scenarios. A majority of the inheritance system can be avoided by dynamically adding composite nodes at runtime as needed.
@@catcactus1234 all nodes in Godot use inheritance. For example you can't just extract some functionality from KinematicBody2D and reuse it in your code, you have to use the whole node which also includes PhysicsBody2D -> Node2D -> Node etc. If the builtin nodes don't do something you want you can either inherit them, or rewrite them from scratch. There is no third option, unfortunately.
How do u create the animations on your video?
I look forward to the fourth engine change in 9 months!
I'm currently using Godot for my game but it doesn't feel like it fits my needs since my game isn't really taking advantage of engine features due to its customized features and it makes Godot feel more like a base for my game to run in than a game engine, I was planning to learn something like Bevy since I wouldn't have to deal with engine bugs or limitations like the tilemap system not supporting per-cell data natively, Do you think that it would fit my needs? If so, Do you know any good resources for beginners?
It sounds like Bevy could be beneficial in your situation. You could just try it and see if it works for you. I don't know how experienced you are, but Bevy definitely requires you being comfortable with coding. Also learning a new language (rust) can be a huge time investment. So it really depends on your goals: do you want to simply get your game done or are you willing to spend a lot of time learning new stuff, that could open up more possibilities.
If you decide to look into Bevy, there are some great tutorials on youtube to learn the basics.
@@timberdevI'm going to look at Bevy, The ECS approach works great for me since I already split up game code a lot, I was already learning Java prior to Godot so I don't mind learning Rust, Thanks for your response and I hope your game goes well!
awesome game so far, can i ask, what do you use to make art for the game?
Thanks for making the video and sharing your experience, very interesting! I also went from Unity to Godot for a little while (some time back). I ultimately switched back because gdscript was too limiting (at least at the time) if you wanted to overengineer your code as I usually do :) and I didn't like a few of the very script-y properties it has/had. I was curious about c# but I figured it would probably be more of a 2nd class citizen in godot world and then I never ended up trying it.
Apart from the issue you encountered, how did c# in godot work for you?
Your thoughts on ecs and Bevy (which I hadn't heard about) are also interesting. I totally agree you can always blame the dev for messy code, but a framework that not only enables you to write clean(er) code, but naturally _encourages_ you to do so is always a plus.
i think the most usual missing points then people talk about game engines is Editor, unity has one godot has one, bevy does not, and that is not important for coding a game, but super important to prototype and compose stuff. I think bevy and other game engines (especially ECS based) should invest some time in editor, and more examples of most common ecs patterns (like drag n drop, composing of systems (one system could depend on another for example) and so on)
Finally a new video
Underrated!
What code editors are you using? Very nice video btw.
I was recently convinced by my dad to start using a language with a good typesystem like rust, I just barely started learning rust because I was bored and demotivated from the Love2d framework. Great video, may the blessings of the indie dev deities bestow upon you fortune and favor.
Sounds like you have a wise father!
@@hermestrismegistus9142 yes, he's a computer scientist at a national observatory
I also recently pivoted to bevy... so far its preeeetty nice!
Good video!
Awesome video .. may I ask what software did u use for those animations?
PS: oh motion canvas I see .. most people don't mention this in desc. 😅
Which text editor are you using and what is the theme? It looks cool.
I've seen bits and bobs about ECS systems but this video really made me understand the basics.
Why did you feel the need to change to this?
Did you only use c# in Godot or did you use GDscript both
Saw the thumbnail and thought:
"Let me guess, fed up with Unity switched to Godot and likes but doesn't feels quite right and ends up with Bevy"
...guess I nailed it.
Unity events and using list is my go to methods to make the most out of the engine.
Currently making a game using unity's ecs and I personally much prefer it
ITR??? i wasn't expecting to see you here!!
@@kkibi 👋
I switched from Unity to Godot and then to Bevy for the same reason. Bevy's ECS makes really easy to compose game from smaller systems!.
Most developer looking for editor of course but I'm more comfortable with code first game engine
This was a really helpful video. Although I think at some point, you just need to give a new engine a shot and see how it feels for you.
One of the reasons I'm window shopping for other game engines is Unity's slow editor. Starting Godot takes seconds, which is soo good when you're working on something on and off. This is especially useful when you're in the "testing out ideas" phase.
That said, there's no real reason why Unity *has* to be so slow. It's entirely possible to redesign it to use lazy loading of editors and windows, and utilise threading to pre-emptively load the necessary components in the background. They've partially started work on that, by splitting things into components, but I feel they just don't have the incentive to actually get the editor speed up. Their core demographic are people that load the project in the morning, work over the day with it, only to shut it down in the evening before they go home. If even that, just locking the work station before going home is quite common in a lot of places.
As to being forced to work with inheritance, I think that's not quite true. Yes, you need to inherit the right base class for your code, but in no way are you forced to make inheritance trees to build your game, it has all the necessary tools to work with composition instead. That's more on the way you're using it than how you *have* to use it. At least in my experience.
This game looks pretty cool, have you released a demo?
bevy looks so smooth... 😯
hi whats ur vsc theme?
Would you try SDL2 + C++. Mostly because you used C#.
What's your editor color scheme?
cool kepp doing what your doing
The video looks and sounds great! Are you using motion canvas?
Yes, the animations are made with motion canvas