Stop Using Wedge Anchors On Car Lifts!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- This is why I highly recommend using epoxy (also called chemical) anchors when installing car lifts.
Tags: 2-post lift anchors, 2-post lift installation, car lift installation anchors, wedge anchors vs epoxy anchors, wedge anchors vs chemical anchors
Just to clear this up:
•I NEVER said you MUST go 15" deep with your anchors. I went that deep because I COULD. If you poured an extra thick beam under your lift, would you still anchor at the standard depth for a standard depth slab??? Not me!
[This space reserved to address any further rediculous comments from members of the TH-cam comment crew]
You should have dropped some fine sand down in the hole so that the leaks into the underground would have been prevented.
@@elbuggothat would be a complete waste of time, money, & effort which all are really negligent anyways but there is a zero percent chance of any fluid getting into those holes from a leak since the holes are completely sealed with the epoxy from top to bottom and even the threads of the rods are completely filled and sealed. You could flood the shop with a foot of hydraulic fluid and there will not be a drop of fluid that will get into the holes with that epoxy in there!!
I'm getting ready to put a lift in my shop. When I built it last year I knew I was going to install a lift. When doing the preparation before pouring the concrete, I dug 2 holes 2 feet deep under where I'm going to mount my lift. I think I'll look into your method a lot closer now. Enjoyed the video.
What would you say is the minimum depth to put these in for a 2 post lift
@@wilsonwichman4847 that depends on lift rating and footprint size. I would ask the lift manufacturer.
Flawed thoughts but I'm guessing you dont have 18 inch thick concrete. So you'll be drilling into gravel and dirt.
Yeah, I was confused by that, it doesn't look like a separate poured footing
Ope, seen in a separate reply he said there's a beam of thick concrete for the lifts
Typically there's a spec for initial install and then a checking torque. Its normally between 100-150 on initial install and somewhere around 80 thereafter. Continuously torquing the wedge anchors to the installed specification will cause them to pull out over time.
Just checked the bendpak install manual (asuming most manufacturers are close to the same, which in my research is true), and the initial torque is 85-95 ft-lbs, and the maintenance torque check is 85-95 ft-lbs While he makes a good point on the epoxy being stronger. He loses all credibility as the dip shit is way over torquing his wedge ankors. Follow his advice at your own risk. Lol
I worked in the industrial robot industry for many years. Chemical anchors were the only anchors we recommended using. When customers would have issues with their robots coming loose from the floor, inevitably we'd find that they didn't use chemical anchors, or had inadequate concrete.
I have heard this from several different sources including my old neighbor. They all said the dynamic load of a moving robot needed the chemical anchors. What some people don't realize is a 2-post car lift is also a dynamic load when the lifted vehicle starts swaying back and forth.
@@TechnicianRed Good Home depot epoxy works good ,anchors eat into concrete with oscillations ,nothing short poor design for this application .
I have used epoxy I have used wedge and epoxy the Simpson Strong-Tie Bolt is the best thing on the market you can stand a 24 ft 6 by 6 column on top of that and walk away from it and never think twice I've seen epoxy attached to all threads that would pull if you epoxy Strong-Tie that would be pretty badass but I don't see it necessary
I was going to make this exact comment. Our company installed some equipment using Fanuc robots, and they specified the exact type of chemical anchor to use. I think the warranty was voided if any other type of concrete anchor was used.
This...expoy is cheap and it works way better. A lift being used multiple times a day, sometimes with unbalanced loads, seems like a very dynamic environment to me.
When you were saying you were going to drill 15” deep I was saying to myself you’d bust through the slab for sure. Most slabs are between 4” and 6” thick unless you are on a beam. If the slab is poured with the expectation of installing heavy equipment the slab designer may have spec’d footings which could be deeper/thicker in those specific areas. But if you don’t install the lift right there, your slab will be thinner. Imagine the cost of a full slab at 15-18” thick! Another point that needs to be made for the viewers is a “Post-tension” or cable tension slab would be a little more scary to install these anchors as cutting a slab cable under tremendous tension can blow out the side of your slab with amazing force. Plus will weaken the slab’s integrity if cut. Not saying your epoxy anchors are a bad idea or even that they aren’t better than the wedge anchors, I just wanted to point out a few cautions here. When drilling of these holes, regardless of the type of anchor, it is best to use a core drilling rig vs. a solid hammer drill to get the most surface area for the anchor. A hammer drill will bust out the bottom of the slab as it nears the bottom surface effectively shortening the vertical length of the hole which the anchors are gripping. Another advantage to using the core drilling set up is you can see the core of concrete (recovered from the hollow bit) for each hole so you know exactly how thick the slab is for each drilled anchor!
Yes there was a thick beam poured in the slab specifically to be used for securing lifts. Very good point on a cable tension slab! That would suck to cut a cable!
You don't find post tension cables in poured cement floors, there's no need. The tension wires are for added strength under load. When the cement starts to bend the cables start to add strength to the panel, slab on grade with a good, compacted base doesn't generally move. Pre-cast cement beams and panels use tension cables and are used in buildings and bridges where they are very common. In most normal floors a wedge anchor will be just as good, but this guy's got the extra thick floors from hell and can get more surface area for the glue to work better. Otherwise, they are a wash for strength in a normal floor. We check our bolts on our lifts once a year, not every week.
@@michaelthomas7898This is flat out wrong! Most poured slabs in Texas have post tension reinforcement. The soil in Texas is constantly moving.
@michaelthomas7898 He may have really thick floors, but apparently he got screwed in the concrete quality.
@@michaelthomas7898 Don't ever say never. Licensed structural engineer here, I have designed post tensioned slabs on grade which have been used for thousands of residential, commercial structures and highways. These slabs have been installed in the Midwest, Texas, the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. We use post tensioning to prevent the concrete from bending, not to take up the load when it bends.
The installation instructions with my Rotary 12K lift specify 110 lb/ft as the installation torque for the 3/4" wedge anchors. They also specify 65 lb/ft for the periodic maintenance torque. If I was re-torquing them to 150 lb/ft every 3 months I wouldn't be surprised it they started to pull out of the concrete. I strongly suggest you verify the specs for your anchors before pulling out the torque wrench and cranking them down to some "if I remember right" torque.
exactly
I have worked on several sites where post lifts were going to be installed, and the County building department requires removal of existing concrete at a specified size for the lift footprint, excavation, compaction, dowel placement in existing slab, a rebar mat, and then pour back to flush. The depth requirement was based on lift capacity.
Smart
In 1991, I watched a new start up shop attempt to install a 2 post lift in an existing shop floor. The floor buckled and they nearly had a serious accident. The sawed out the floor, excavated, compacted, and poured concrete and installed J-bolts. They calculated the weight of the footings to make certain that the mass was more than double the weight of any vehicle they might service.
Brodzy auto - West Bend, WI.
I have 10" concrete floors and never would I drill 15" or 5" into the sub soil. I suggest He look into some sky hooks and he won't have to drill new holes.😂
That is what was explained to me when I hired the guy to install my lift. It all made sense after the lifts where installed and also there’s a distance in between the anchors from looking at this lift the anchors are too close to each other on the first lift post shown.
@@jamesfneubauer884 I prefer the red ones , not stronger just better looking !
I work in the maritime industry and I have used Hilti brand epoxy to install mooring bits that secure ships to a dock. Four 1.5 inch x 20 inch bolts, and it would stand up to anything a ship or tug can throw at it. I've seen ships hit the mooring bits, and the anchor epoxy still doesn't fail.
The funny thing with the Hilti epoxy was it being the color of bubble gum. I used it for industrial work anchoring down huge machines. Great product but slightly over-priced. We would buy so much of it they would supply automatic guns for installing it with every pallet of epoxy.
I'm interested in finding out the quality of the concrete . We have that very same 12,000 lift in our shop and it is primarily used for heavy duty trucks 3/4 ton and one tons . One time I did recheck the torque and they were plenty tight, [ within spec. ] . This lift was installed about seven years ago and everything is still mounted down solid.
RE: I'm interested in finding out the quality of the concrete .
Look into: _Mohs Concrete Surface Scratch Test Process_ - you can find a videos here on YT. Will only answer surface strength though. Or you can drill a test hole for another bolt and see what it will take to get it out again?
Times two.
Having anchored down a number of machine tools we always used epoxy concrete with a 50K psi compressive strength. These were punches and sheers and had high vibration. They never moved or loosened. Epoxy is always better than sleeve or wedge anchoring systems.
Interesting video! I think it's the concrete failing, not the anchors. My rule: "If it can move, it will move. If it starts moving, it will keep moving." That leads to the death of many things. In this case, the cement is crumbling under the compressive force of wedge, and retainer becomes loose repeatedly. Epoxy doesn't exert that force, so it stays solid. Now, will the cement survive the upward draw of the torqued bolt? Time will tell. Good luck!
I say pretty much the same thing. If it can move, it will move. The more it can move, the more it will move.
Something isn't right with your concrete if the wedges pulled up that quickly. They should tighten the first few times you do your monthly/whatever tightening on them, and then stop. That initial tightening is just individual pieces of aggregate or whatever in the concrete getting crushed, until the anchor actually hits truly solid concrete and then it should stop basically forever. This isn't the anchors failing, it's the concrete failing. Noticed when you were comparing the specs, you went for 2000psi concrete -- if that's what your actual concrete is, it probably isn't strong enough for a 2-post installed to factory spec. It's should fine with your overkill anchor depth, but you probably want to keep an eye on your concrete supplier.
Yes, the failure point is the concrete, not the anchors themselves. But when your concrete is weak, a bigger or deeper hole and epoxy will spread the load /force over a larger area.
regardless.... It still need to be fixed...
I've used wedge anchors 80% of the time and like others stated robots, lifts and other machines that have vibration or cycling movements its best to expoxy the anchors in.
But if your concrete slab is thin or low psi specification your pretty much reduced to cutting out the slab and pouring deeper higher psi footers.
A ex coworker built a 3 bay garage and in the last bay he formed and poured a deeper footer for a lift doung the construction.
If you try to remove wedge anchors from concrete, you should be aware that the concrete those wedge anchors are coming out of is TOO SOFT to begin with. Wedge anchors in the proper psi poured concrete should be nearly impossible to remove. Any lift installed on the wrong type and strength of concrete is a disaster waiting to happen. I would rather die of old age than being crushed to death under a collapsing car or truck lift. Please only take advise from experts not youtube amateurs. Your life will depend on it.
This is really good point: "... the concrete those wedge anchors are coming out of is TOO SOFT to begin with. Wedge anchors in the proper psi poured concrete should be nearly impossible to remove."
I built my slab extra thick for the lift. Used wedge anchors without issues. Still good and tight. Your concrete likely is poor. Had mine tested to 3200 PSI. My slab is almost 16” deep in the area of the posts. Lots of rebar as well. Sure it was expensive but I know it will not pull out or break the concrete.
I'm going to install a 12,000 lb two post lift and my concrete is 5 1/2" thick at a 4500 lb test hopefully I'll be okay, but also thinking of adding extra footing support plates to increase foot print
Sounds a bit thin. Check with your manufacturer as they should have recommended at least 8” thick with 12” desired. Even with distribution plates that’s going to be iffy.
I think you may have an issue with your concrete not being up to spec, most require 3000 psi minimum (higher than that for higher capacities). A couple of other things - I have always used hilti anchors instead of the ones that come with lift and have never had an issue, also in your video at least one of your posts has anchors that are less than 6 inches from cracks in the concrete which is a no-no. Perhaps your video title should be - "How I repaired my failed lift anchors"
I’ve been installing lifts for over 30 years. The proper rating for wedge anchors I’d 4000 psi at least 4 1/2 inches thick. If anchor bolts are failing it is because of substandard concrete.
I am thinking the same thing. While epoxy might be a superior choice the root issue is the anchor is breaking up on the holes thus pulling up. Maybe epoxy will fix his problem maybe not because I think the slab is the root cause.
Concrete issue, not the anchors.
Did you have test cylinders pulled when the slab was poured?
Having work as a civil engineer in concrete I would have to agree with these people you have a concrete problem.
@@philtheheaterguy951it’s definitely his concrete issues, when our new honda dealer was built my old buddy did all the rotary lifts in the shop over 40 lifts and they were all installed with wedge anchors, epoxy might be better in your case but if you have proper concrete psi and depth rebar etc etc wedge anchors are perfectly fine
Diablo rebar demons (aka Bosch SpeedXtreme, same exact bit, different branding. Bosch owns Diablo) absolutely can drill through rebar. And they work better than the other style. I've punched through full 5/8" sticks with either. The core style bits were a much more exhausting process (leaning on the hammerdrill) and they never lasted as long. Rebar demons use diffusion bonding full head carbide, the other is just a brazed carbide insert. Water helps a lot with both in spite of the directions, but you have to obviously clean it for proper epoxy job. Also need to slow your RPMs. I ran an SDS Max setup so 300-400 RPM typical. People burn them up run too many RPMs on too large a bit on an SDS+.
That’s been my experience, just slows down a little but drills right through it.
Sounds like great advice👍
Spot On
You have an inadequate slab
That could be the case as I have no way to test the strength without sending in a core sample. But regardless of slab strength, epoxy anchors are rated to much higher shear and tensile loads than wedge anchors so I will choose epoxy from now on.
@@TechnicianRed I hope it holds well and works for you. And thank you for the video I enjoyed watching.
I appreciate the strength of the chemical anchors and in some cases they are needed.
I install car hoists and use wedge anchors most of the time.
The diameter of the wedge bolt can make a difference.
I see some installers using 16mm bolts.
These are below hoist manufacturers standards.
I personally use 20mm wedge bolts. They bite in much better than 16mm and I have not seen them pull out.
I also service hoists and do safety inspections which includes checking the torque of the bolts.
There is often a couple of the bolts on a hoist which will need re torquing. It ususally takes a 1/4 -1/3 of a turn of the nut.
After a couple of years they usually don't pull up at all anymore.
The ones which continue to need retorquing I keep an eye on.
I never cut off the threads as then you don't know how much bolt is in the concrete.
If they don't retorque then I will knock them through the slab and use a single chemical bonded anchor.
The industry standard is to use wedge anchors, so there is no use going an extra mile with a considerable extra expense if what the standard specified works.
If a DIYer isn't sure then by all means use chemical bonding.
By the way I have seen some chemically bonded bolts come loose.
Thank u for expert feedback!!
Also doing inspections and installations. I recommendent him to make a new casting.
Wedge anchors have been used for a long time in construction, a lot of large buildings have been built using them. I have never seen wedge anchors loosen up like the ones you show. However you have to use a proper quality anchor such as manufactured by Hilti, Philips, Simpson, etc. Also installation is very critical. If you drill the hole oversize you will have reduced capacity. Epoxy anchors are a more recent invention and have some advantages over wedge anchors for instance if you drill the hole a bit sloppy they can still work but they still must be installed properly. The manufacturers will state the requirements for cleaning out the holes and these must be strictly adhered to. I've seen epoxy anchors intentionally installed with some of the cleaning steps left out and the anchors failed at very low loads. In addition adhesive anchors are not good at sustained tension loads because the epoxy will creep and loosen up with time. There were some large failures at an underground traffic tunnel in Boston because of this. Some of the manufacturers now have adhesives that work better for tension applications. In addition you must use the drill bit diameter that is recommended by the epoxy manufacturer. The latest invention in concrete anchors are the screw anchors. These are very strong and a bit more foolproof to install but can still have a problem if the holes are sloppy, again you must use the exact drill bit diameter recommended by the bolt manufacturer.
"All you do is drill a hole...". You must drill the proper diameter hole with the proper diameter bit. Did you buy the right bit at Home Depot? Did you wallow out the hole larger than necessary? Did you clean the hole properly? Even the cheapest wedge anchors should be performing better than the ones showed in the video so installation is questionable.
Your interpretation of the Simpson load charts is incorrect. They give bond strength values for the anchors and yes a deeper hole achieves more bond strength but that doesn't make the steel bolt any stronger. You might not fail the adhesive at 45,000 pounds but the steel bolt would fail long before that, or the concrete would fail. An adhesive anchor can be stronger than a wedge anchor but not by the amount that you implied. The final strength of an adhesive anchor is the smallest of the epoxy bond strength compared to the concrete breakout strength compared to the steel rod strength.
And another problem with anchor installation- OSHA now requires that you have a dust collection system to even drill the holes for the anchors. All of the main manufacturers sell systems using hollow drill bits and vacuums to do this. The fine dust that comes out of the holes contains very sharp particles that can injure your lungs.
We used to push and drag shit before we had wheels!!
Use 4000 psi concrete 5" or thicker, and use Redhead anchors, you won't have that problem. When I built my shop I dug out an H 10" deep and put down rebar. Poured commercial grade 4000 psi concrete w/ fiber, and after 30 days I installed the lift with 8" Redheads. If something fails, it won't be the concrete or anchors.... Wedge anchors are perfectly fine when used and installed correctly.
i also just poured a slab. I got 4000psi and had them go 12 in in the area for my lifts and 6 in for the rest of the slab reinforced with rebar. I had a lift break concrete and drop a truck just seconds after i got out from under it to grab a tool. I had to build a support anchor for the top of my lift because where I was renting the slab was not done to code.
I poured 4000 psi, added rebar, and paid for fiber strand in addition where the lift is going and I just poured 8 inches. Along with 12 inch footers along the outside perimeter of the slab.
The wedge anchor would definitely be the weak point.
6 month updates? are you still alive?
Still here 👋
First off I highly doubt you concrete is more than 6 inches deep..secondly I think your cement is what is falling not the anchors that is falling.
I installed a used Wheeltronic lift 14 years ago. A Professional Engineer friend told me "no wedge anchors" . So I cast 3\4" anchor bolts on the pour. The torque has remained at spec.
Anchor bolts can be problematic too. If you use J-bolts like people used to use in houses those things will straighten up and pull out.
It's unarguably sensible to use what's best. You don't need to simulate he'd say I'd say. It's your life, you only get one chance. Do it right.
something is wrong with your floor. the anchors rarely fail unless there is an issue with the concrete. I have seen chemical anchors fail more than the wedge style. you said you will go deeper you won't gain anything after you exceed the shear strength. you said you had 2000 psi concrete that isn't enough to support that lift. what is the depth of your floor. these lifts require you have a concrete beam below where you mount the lift. you shimmed the floor plate but didn't backfill with no shrink mortar. when you don't fill the void the floor plate flexes that will cause problems with your anchor bolts. my opinion you caused the failure by not backfilling under the floor plate. if you fail to do this with your chemical anchors they will work loose too. you have to support below the floor plate.
This concrete is rated higher than 2000psi. I was only using the 2000psi concrete rating on the strength charts to compare the shear and tensile strength of both styles of anchors. Basically to simply show how an epoxy anchor is stronger when used in the same psi concrete as a wedge anchor.
Wow! Never knew 150 ft lbs was the tightening spec on those anchor bolts. I've been working in shops as a tech since 1988 and I can't remember any of my lifts having tight anchor bolts. Most were always loose a few days after snugging them up. And I've been to a lot of shops and used a lot of lifts. 14 actually. Fortunately, I never saw a lift fall. I have seen a couple of techs rack vehicles poorly and have them fall. Thanks for sharing.
It's not! it's - 85-95ft-lbs
Great video! I have three lifts using the same anchors that are installed by pros. They are just as loose as yours. No warranty with the pro installation. Go epoxy ❤
You could go ridiculous overkill like I did. I built a 30 inch deep framework with a 1/4 inch thick steel base plate, through which I ran 3/4 inch grade 8 allthread inside conduit, all set inside 36 inch deep concrete footings. Once the concrete was cured, the lift was installed and the allthread was post-tensioned. That bad boy will never fail. Granted, the whole setup cost a couple thousand dollars, and that's with doing all the labor myself. I'd hate to think what it would have cost to pay someone to build all that.
That sounds extremely thorough!!
@billrimmer5596 well, I had done a standard installation originally, but then a stupid mistake on my part led to the floor cracking, so I had to cut out the old floor and pour a new one. I figured I might as well make sure it couldn't fail again.
When I installed my lift I threw the wedge anchors that came with the lift in the trash and used Hilti's. And there
is always the option of using Tapcons which have better sheer and pull out than wedge anchors. A quality wedge anchor and concrete with the right psi you should never have a failure.
The epoxy is great stuff, I definitely trust it above all else for anchors. If you do accidentally drill through the slab, you can push a small piece of foam backer rod or even a cork down to the bottom to prevent the epoxy from leaking out. Last time I looked at the specs, the steel rod was strongest, followed by the epoxy bond, followed by the concrete. If something fails on these types of anchors, it will be the concrete first. I don't trust wedge anchors for anything more than basic mounting with trivial loads. I have seen equipment mounted with wedge anchors get tagged by a forklift wheel and they don't survive.
Wedge anchors are fine as long as the concrete and anchor install are both good. And that is the problem. As a former concrete contractor, I'd say that most concrete isn't done to spec. Just walk around your neighborhood, look at the concrete, and tell me that mud was done to spec. Then when you add a wedge anchor that is just a little bit poorly installed, you now have poor work on top of poor work.
Stacking poor tolerances is how you wind up with an unsatisfactory well, anything, in the end.
I got my wedge anchor bolts from car lift parts, that are intended for car lifts. 2 years and 2 - 10,000 lb. lifts not 1 single problem, with 2500 and 3500 pickups and vans. 4000psi concrete 5" thick drilled 4-1/2". Not trying to argue, but lift companies install these this way every day and no problems. I have mounted equipment to concrete for 30 years using these and no problems. I suspect you got a bad batch of concrete.
I've used a lot of Hilti brand epoxy anchoring products, and several other brands, to anchor many different peices equipment over the years in industrial settings. I can tell you with the Hilti products, when used according to the manufacturer instructions, you will literally pull the all thread in two before you pull it out of the concrete ! That is if the concrete doesn't bust first !
Good vid ! 7 month update on the fix?? I'm thinking a stainless steel 1/2 plate (under the slab at grade) with the bolts coming through a new 6-8" concrete pour would be better . You'd have to have an exact template made to set the plates and bolts during the slap pour. .I 'm definitely pouring a deep slab in my lift area. This is concerning for sure. 150' lbs is not a lot
Still holding strong! And yes, your idea would be even stronger for sure. Unfortunately there isn't an industry standard bolt pattern (that I know of) for 2 post lifts so if you change the lift out in the future you will have to redo it all again or be forced to weld the new columns to the old base plates.
I installed elevators in High rises and we only used wedge anchors for the rail mounts and machinery , no epoxy. Commercial applications, the concrete is mixed correctly with exact PSI rating or they reject it. Residential or smaller commercial shops , the concrete is iffy . You have a concrete problem not an anchoring problem. Also of 2 posts , the outer anchors would give before the inner ones , so its not due to lift operation.
It must have worked since I am still alive! Famous Last Words!
I'll bet your concrete isn't up to spec.
I installed one of those lifts in my shop. It's floor isn't up to spec.
I didn't want to cut out the floor to pour new footings. I just made damm sure the holes were drilled true and brushed and rinsed clean. Then I guyed the lift towers to the roof trusses with 2x2x.25 angle.
Hmmm, every single lift manufacturer that I've researched use wedge anchores. Yours definitely aren't biting into your concrete for some reason. Wedge anchores do work. I've seen concrete break before the wedge anchor pulling out. They should kinda create a little undercut in the area they originally bite into making it less likely to pull out. We have used threaded studs and a type of epoxy to anchor our large machine tools to the floor. Definitely a very strong method. You are correct, epoxy is a very strong joining method no doubt.
Only problem I saw as a mechanic was your use of a torque wrench, 1 click your done, not 2 or 3 more clicks.
I worked in the rigging industry, and we had plenty of stands, preses, and reelers that were anchored with wedged anchors. They'd get damaged with ... well, heavy equipment or large heavy reels of steel wire rope being moved around less than carefully.
As part of our work we made spelter socket terminations on wire ropes. These used epoxy to hold the meticulously separated and treble-cleaned individual strands in a "broom" that sat in the epoxy mix that was set. These spelter sockets were engineered/design-rated to 100% the strength of the wire rope used. Each were tested too, to ensure they were good.
The other splices or swaged ferrule splices on a wire rope end: only 60 to 80% of the rated strength.
After those sockets were poured: we would ALWAYS mix more, and have some excess. Most shops I worked at, we filled/repaired spalls and cracks in our concrete floors with the leftover. This "off-label" use of the epoxy was FAR stronger than the concrete it replaced. I've seen 4000 pound reels of wire rope bounced atop repaired sections, and the concrete would give first.
Clearly, anyone whining about epoxy bonded anchors, implying they're inferior to wedge anchors are talking out their arses.
Concrete anchors and epoxy mixes designed for this use would be far, far superior, and worth the extra cost on larger drill bits and epoxy.
Dig it all up and put in real concrete anchors....
The reason that your anchors are pulling up is because your concrete is below the required mpa.
Car hoists require concrete which is rated at 30mpa.
In Australia standard concrete is 25mpa but used to be 20mpa.
Unless you ask the concrete company for 30mpa you will get the standard.
If you use 30mpa you will never pull the anchors up out of the ground.
They will tighten up and never pull the anchors up out of the ground.
The epoxy system is for when your concrete is not up to spec or it is cracked etc.
In the US, the typical "standard" mix for floor slabs is 3000PSI or 20MPa. Most Concrete suppliers are pretty good and should give you a ticket with the exact weights of the mix components with a PSI rating. In theory if you have an engineered slab it should include the PSI rating and the slump. Ideally, it may be worth paying for an onsite inspection to ensure the contractor meets the spec.
Concrete contractors can be an issue, Ideally you want someone who does most commercial and government projects like roads and bridges. Guys who do mostly residential and smaller jobs are going to likely cut corners. Low slump concrete is hard to work. Too many times these guys will water down the mix to make it easier to work. But that will lower the final as built strength.
There are field tests that can be performed and you can take cast samples for lab strength tests. If the contractor does not do field tests or create samples for later lab testing, you really don't know what you are getting. If the contractor quibbles about testing or doesn't know how to do them, you should probably look elsewhere.
Some will say that testing is overkill and that may be true to a degree, but at a minimum you should know the mix and make sure they don't cheat the slump.
If you think of concrete as some generic material, educate yourself!
I have to agree with the possibility that there is a concrete issue. If under load the concrete may go "powdery"....0r somewhat brittle ....resulting with the anchor "slipping " through the hole. I installed(by myself)...a 10k lb lift. The anchor will always come out a bit before they make a solid bite. I had two anchored that came out more than I wanted.....and I believe that may have been due to not cleaning the hole really well of all dust. I also believe that not all anchors are created equal.....that is in material quality and build quality. To stand there and swear that the anchor is the issue is somewhat problematic.
@@tonyhowe3676 The anchors aren't great but do work in old well cured concrete. Personally. I've been a bit surprised that the10,000lb lifts don't have a wider base, In heavy industry, we don't ever use these for large equipment. With epoxy, the quality of the concrete matter too, however the surface area is considerably larger.
I don' believe it is recommended, but I have heard of using epoxy with wedge anchors. the theory being that it fills all space around tee anchor. if any concrete begins to dust or crumble, it has no space to go. plus you do get a bond between the entire length of the hole and the bolt. Not the prescribed amount for full bond strength, but likely better than the wedge bolt alone.
Any statement that starts with "I am part of a Facebook group" is usually followed with the dumbest thing a person can interject for that topic.
That being said, concrete anchors are time tested and proven in many applications, do they work and are they effective?...yes. That being said the concrete pull out cone that is established by the wedging effect of the anchor negatively impacts the holding capacity of the anchor. The wedge anchors really strive when they are used in applications in where the anchor is subjected to a consistent and continuous tension force. For a two post car lift base plate the tension value is neither consistent nor continuous. The tension forces are constantly changing with respect to lifting and lowering vehicles. This tensioning and relaxing causes the anchor to loose clamping force through the wearing away of the concrete it is embedded in. The anchors to the inside of the lift do not experience a tension force as they are directly adjacent to the pivot point of the plate when loaded. Those anchors are exposed to an out of plane combined point shear, they mostly just see a reduction in clamping as the compressive force of the plate trying to push through the concrete causes a reaction force.
There are soo many variations of concrete anchors that could have been used here, epoxy is obviously the most superior second only to precast anchor bolts (not an option). The precision of the hole that is drilled for the epoxy needs to be on the tight side as the epoxy manufacturer specifies a tolerance for shear in the concrete/epoxy/fastener interface.
If it is a concern hire an experienced engineer to inspect and sign off on your installation, just because a "pro" installed a lift doesn't mean a damn thing.
If torqued properly such that the clamping force is greater than the forces of lifting the vehicle there will be no cyclical forces on the wedge anchor. Now if you can not reach the recommended torque with out pull out, typically 150 lb/ft for this application then they will never hold properly.
Most people install wedge anchors wrong. If you don't brush and blow out the hole before installing a wedge anchor it will pull up. Epoxy is the best though. Follow the instructions carefully.
Needs 4000 to 5000 psi concrete
This is a failure waiting to happen. You never drill thru a slab due to rusting. The debris must be vacuumed out because it acts like an abrasive around the drill bit and also gives you a false depth. Wedge anchors when installed properly is the choice, always. I will also call out that your concrete is not rated in strength and thickness to successfully support this. I have a Mohawk lift (best out there) and again, quality wedge anchors are used.
Tech Red, can you tell me the part number on the rods from McMaster-Carr ? Thanks for some awesome info.
I'm sorry but it looks like I ordered that on Ebay as it's not in my purchase history on McMaster.
On one side of my lift, the wedge anchors were slowly pulling out as well. I cut off the exposed anchor flush with the post using an angle grinder. Then used a steel rod and hammered the rest of the anchor out all the way through the bottom of the slab. I then re-drilled the holes for the next larger diameter anchors. Hammered in the new anchors. No issues since. The slab is around 5 1/2 inches thick.
Instead of blameing the anchor I think you might look at the concrert . I installed alot of wedge anchors and the only time I HAD A problem was when concret failed test specs. You can core drill a test sample and have the concrete tested . Be safe .
The problem isn't your anchors, it's your crap concrete.
I never considered vedge anchors with my lift you never get them all to bite). Stainless allthread with composite chem-anchor, with all stainless fastners including the washers topped with stainless acorn-nuts (because shiny). It's expensive hardware but in relation to the lift it's bugger all.
I'm sure you will be perfectly fine but I would recommend against using SS hardware in any high stress environments. SS has a much lower shear strength than carbon steel and it has much lower tensile strength than hardened carbon steel fasteners. The threads also like to gall up so a lubricant is allways suggested for SS fasteners- something I wouldn't want applied to my lift hardware.
@TechnicianRed : Where I live they dump oodles of clorides and nitride/sulfides on the roads. I'll do my best to keep vehicles clean before entering the lift, however I can't guarantee that some doesn't get in between the floor and the post plate, corrossion being orders of magnitude higher risks here. The double nuts lock the primary nuts in place, yes lubed nicely. I once almost moved to California to get away from the metal cancer we have here (sometimes I even regret I didn't).😅 Another layer of the onion you started pealing here....😉
I admire that you were taking the precaution. Doing nothing is extremely dangerous!
The problem is not the anchors. I installed my 12k lift 10 years ago and have lifted diesel trucks (9000 lbs) and Sprinter vans (8800 lbs). When I built my workshop, we used 4000 psi concrete and I wet cured it. Most garage floor use 2000 psi concrete and they air dry it instead of wet curing. That makes the difference. The problem you have is the concrete is too weak.
All modern concrete is weak
@@ineedapharmists You need to find some real concrete and check on that. I frequently use 7000 psi concrete and some buildings use concrete over 10,000 psi. Researchers have developed concrete to go well over 20,000 psi. Consider that average structural steel used to be only 36,000 psi.
@@billj5645 shit cracks as soon as it's laid. Roman shit is still structurally stable 2000 years later....buddy
I was in my mid 50’s when I started watching this video, I’m now 96 and writing this comment from my nursing home 🧐
If you don't want to buy the gun, full tube of epoxy etc hilti makes a system with little packages (1 per anchor) that you put in the hole and "screw" the anchor into it to mix it
Your neighbor here. I don't know why you had to throw me under the bus in this video. 7:39
I have always used 6 sack concrete mix 4000 psi . I think people get bids for their floors and dont ask what mix they get. I remember in 70s they had a 2 1/2 sack mix that had chemicals added to give it strength. If the floor is cheap concrete mix the bolts just make powder out of you concrete. Epoxy may help but weak mix will always break down under pressure. I would cut that floor and poor a 6 sack 4000 psi footing under the post.
Your Crete seems suspect, too wet when poured, even the finish looks off.
Edit... drilling looked way to easy.
Is is still goooooood?
Yes! I have rechecked the nut torque several times and the nuts haven't turned at all- not even 1 degree.
Did you drill through the concrete? If the flaring part of the anchor bolt is close to or below the slab bottom it will fail to grab properly.
Lot of time the drill bit may take out too much material not allowing the anchor to grip when its torque up
While wedge anchors do have their shortcomings, in your case it seems there's also a problem with the quality of your concrete floor.
I have a large four post car lift anchored with just four bolts on each post. I really abuse this lift on a daily basis. On the right side it is anchored with wedge anchors, the left side is held by an epoxy anchor system.
Both do their job neither the epoxy nor the wedge anchors get loose.
Reason might be a very high quality concrete floor with a hefty amount of rebar.
However, I have to agree that epoxy anchors probably are a safer solution. Sometimes you have to deal with a floor of slightly questionable quality and this is where the epoxy system certainly is superior.
I believe if the anchors are holding.....they should really not loosen for a long time. I think some of the cause of loosening anchors may be how the lift is used. If the vehicle is positioned so the posts are in line with the center of gravity of the vehicle and the arms are located the same distance from the posts...to the front and to the back........there really should be very little tension on the bolts as the vehicle should technically be balanced front to back on the lift??? ( in theory the lift should still be standing even with all bolts removed??). However....in real life I think that we don't go through that exercise......and " guess" at the column position and pads. So probably most of the time vehicles are lifted off balance which eventually loosens the anchors. I am certainly not an expert in this field.....even though I installed my 2 post10k lb lift.....(by myself......holly crap that was hard.......I'm 73).
Having found the centre of gravity on my 06 pickup (after the post install)....I found I had to place the posts forward of the center.....making more room in front and the wall.....in which case I had to place a support at the rear before working on it because now it was rail heavy. For the most part I always put the post at the center of gravity. Wheeeeyou!!!.....yes....long and winded?
Lots of good information about proper lift maintenance and it's appreciated. I wonder if you had a weak spot in the same area those bad anchors were? Good fix though!
I only have 6 pin type anchors in each post and 100 psi is all the torque you want, your tearing the concrete apart at 150 foot lbs
The very last comment 😀
Good morning. This vid was posted five months ago. I am sure u have checked how the bolts and clamping force is doing. And I bet they r all holding up perfectly!! When I installed my racks, just for fun, I boxed them in at the top with 2x6’s to the rafter ties. When the car or truck on the rack is unbalanced, it presents a large force on the bolts anchoring it to the floor. Capturing the top is much more effective force wise. Right? It’s just a little extra insurance.
Yes, I have checked the torque a few times now and the chemical anchors haven't turned at all. If they did turn even slightly that would mean the epoxy has failed. As far as bracing the top of the lift goes- Yes it would add strength and the bracing has lots of leverage to work with but I would be afraid of a freak accident that could potentially bring the whole shop/barn/garage down. Some structures aren't very strong so you will need to use good judgement on that.
Also, the main reason I wouldn't recommend bracing the lift to the building's structure is over time it will definitely cause metal roofing screws to back out, wood nails to start pulling out, drywall will start to crack, etc. The top of the car lifts move quite a bit and eventually I imagine it will start to cause building fatigue.
that is what I had to do after the concrete failed and dropped a car nearly killing me. I had a top brace made to keep the lift from putting any stress on the concrete. Been ok for 9 years now.
At 10:57 "the only thing you can do wrong" regarding using a wedge anchor...it's best to add, ...Not cleaning the drilled hole when using a wedge anchor can also cause premature failure of wedge anchors. Also my concrete guy never uses anything under 4000 concrete when cars are driving on it.
I used drop in anchors for my lift, not a problem.
If all you do is drill a hole and drop them in you will have problems.
a long bottle brush in a drill down the hole, blast it out with the air gun and vacuum the dust, then drop it in.
Hilti Kwik Bolt2 is a very good anchor. Make sure the expiration date on the epoxy. We had it set up too fast one time. Drilling it out and cleaning the holes is a nightmare.
Definitely would have the concrete tested. Suspect a lower PSI rating. Wedge anchors in proper hardness/strength concrete will be a very good fastener.
Well yes but in poorer substrates, the performance difference between chemset anchors and wedge anchors becomes even greater. Unless you want to spend $30k ripping up the slab and repouring it because you dont want to spend the extra $38 on chemset fasteners
@@NathanBarley-h6l No argument on cost differential. BUT, in really crappy concrete, think like badly done sackrete for instance, even chemsets don't work. We have done pull tests on chemset anchors for window cleaners hanging off the side of high rise buildings. There are occasional anchors that DO NOT pass. You would think that the typical high rise building would pass no issue..
150 ft lbs is only for the initial install. Once installed re-tighten to 90 ft lbs. I have never had wedge anchors fail before when not over torqued.
Sounds more like your concrete isn’t deep enough. These shouldn’t ever fail you. That being said, the ultra bond is a great alternative
Thank you! You spelled out all the concerns I had with the wedge anchors that came with my lift. I was constantly tightening them a bit after the first time I noticed they were loose. I think it happens with the weather as well as with use, as my lift is in my home shop, and does not see constant use. Once they loosened up, it bothered the heck out of me. I was absolutely considering making the move to Chemical anchors. I was a bit concerned with the lesser 105 foot pound recommendation. I think I'll be doing this in the spring.
That's what frustrates me about certain vehicle lift manufactures instructions. Those anchors should not be 150ft/lbs of torque. They're just supposed to be snug (60-80ft/lbs). All the anchors do is keep the posts from tipping. Torqueing them super tight is only going to cause them to start slipping out over time. Bendpak lifts recommends the same thing to only tighten the anchors snug. The force on the posts are not straight up and down, but the force on the posts tip inwards while under a load. Yeah, 150ft/lbs is way too much, and will only cause the anchors to keep pulling out over time.
You are not understanding the "moments"... would you like a reaction video to explain it to you?
First of all, installing any lift on a concrete floor not engineered with the proper strength and type of concrete poured by a licensed concrete company is asking for a catastrophe . Your bolts are pulling out because your concrete is not the proper strength mixture. Using that epoxy is not the answer. Eventually that whole slab the lift is on is going to pull out causing the entire lift to fall over. Posting this video of what you thing is the correct thing to fix the problem is criminal. Hope your wife has paid up your life insurance.
This is a very well done comment that identifies the exact hazard that's in play here.
Mabey, try not over torquing the living dogshit out of them. Bendpak manual (assuming most manufacturers are close to the same) initial torque "Tighten each Nut clockwise to the recommended installation torque, 85 - 95 pound feet, using a
Torque Wrench." Maintenance torque "Every two months: Check all Anchor Bolts to make sure they are correctly torqued. If they are
not, torque them to 85 - 95 ft lb." That is the same between the 10,000lb and 12,000lb lift. The reason you torque to spec is ao you dont over torque and cause a failure.
Since I was starting from scratch I welded a large H out of used H-beam (surplus steel saves absurd money!) then bolted and welded my used lift to that. It's self-supporting and far stronger than concrete so if you pour a slab consider prepositioning steel (gross overkill is good). Fab it so it does not require the concrete to take the load and you can even place a lift outdoors with a railroad gravel base. If ever need to remove it an hour with my cutting torch would cut the bolts and gouge out the welds. I also boxed my shop foundation in large beam so not only did it not need an expensive wooden form but I could and do weld to it. If I ever have to place one on existing slab I'll rent a concrete saw and jackhammer then drop another steel H into that. Many mechanics don't know how easy surplus steel is to get from demo companies and scrap yard. Fecesbook Marketplace is another good source.
Need stronger cement
Okay but those anchors are not suitable for those cyclic loads and rely on an upward force and a good grip of the expansion collar from the start ... Use an anchor that has a forced expansion by tightening AND has an earthquake approval. These just work everytime even in weak and cracked concrete, and can even be removed if needed. Fisher FH II: th-cam.com/video/hu6pepbbnBM/w-d-xo.html
Cheap Hydraulics 39 years this epoxy I've used but I've used an anchor with it it's oversized you get it underneath the concrete with the epoxy also this epoxy needs to be tested for at least 20 years before I would use just threaded anchors am I work for a a couple of years would I wouldn't put it on all of my anchors also you should check the type of concrete you have and also check if your floor is balanced you might need wedges underneath your anchors to balance it right any questions just call
This concrete, or the holes, MUST be out of spec. There is NO WAY for those bolts to pull out of those wedges unless the concrete failed or the holes were not drilled to spec. In order for that to happen, the wedges need to expand past the diameter of the bolt wedge section. The only way that can happen is if the hole was drilled too big, or the concrete failed and expanded at that point too. If all things are in spec, there is nowhere for the wedges to expand further and they lock in place. If the bit used was "wandering" during drilling, the hole will be oversized and allow this to happen. If the compressive strength of the concrete isn't high enough, the wedges will simply crush the concrete to failure at the wedge point outward and basically swage the hole at that point to a larger diameter. Very similar wedge bolts are used to set fall protection anchor points rated for a minimum of 5000lbs each. And those bolts are only 1/2 inch diameter.
All that said, this is a good solid solution. Just make sure the epoxy you use is rated for the application and load.
Years ago, in Boston's "Big Dig" project, concrete ceiling panels were installed with epoxy. The epoxy slowly "creeped" and failed, dropping these huge panels on an unsuspecting motorist, killing the driver and severely injuring the passenger. Hundreds of these anchor bolts had to be redone. This is a different animal, in that the load was always on the anchor bolts pulling down. Little was known about "epoxy creep" at the time and this sent shock waves through the construction industry for some time. The epoxy was determined to be sub standard.
Follow the manufacturers instructions precisely. Epoxy and anchors are engineered products that require strict adherence to procedures, application, and conditions.
Several reasons YOU are having "trouble" with your anchors............... poor concrete and or incorrect install of anchors. I say this having installed thousands of slip anchors over 40 yrs with less than just a few having trouble. You should have had a lift installer install your lift.
You also can’t leave out shitty concrete. It happens, more than you would think. Crappy batch of cement. NYC had a huge case about this in the early 2010’s.
150 ft lbs is too much torque. My BendPak 10k lb torque specs are 85 to 95
I don't understand what is the thickness and psi of your concrete ? Since you are drilling down 15" is that how thick ur concrete is? I think like a previous person stated the original concrete was the problem . It does not make any sense why the outer anchors didn't fail as those would have the most pull on them???
How thick do you think concrete is?
Try through bolting it😅😅😅
You still need a wedge anchor
Talk to an expert..not your friends..where did you get the glue..home depot.......
Best anchor system is to have a base template of the lift your gonna install and put 3/4 inch bolts while the concrete is poured
and have a square washer with a nut on the bottom..of course this only works on a new or redone concrete pour...it ill never need to be re torqued..
@12:11 I'm sure it was just the angle of your video but it sure looked like the crack in your concrete opened up as you were tourqing that bolt down, I don't know go back and look at your video and see if I was seeing things or just imagining things.
Well sir you are wrong…. The difference between a amateur and professional is not that the professional gets paid. It’s the professional knows how to fix his fuck ups and the amateur doesn’t. So there for you must be a professional 😂😂
either your concrete is bad, you bought cheap anchors and bits, or you yourself caused them to fail by over-tourquing your anchors. when you set your wrench you stop at the first click. each additional click increases the torque on the anchor, which in turn causes concrete to fail around the anchor. you're also using an extended length ratchet and not a torque wrench. These were designed and specd by engineers, not mechanics. Read the installation instructions and maintainance instructions again, and follow them
Your original towards 150 pounds on that bin pack left that’s the set the anchor your maintenance torque is 80 pounds it’s in the instructions you keep pulling 150 banker will come up
I don't think the instructions on this lift mentioned a lower maintainence torque but some quick research online shows that many lift companies do recommend exactly what you are saying. I will however still stand behind my opinions made in the video as some of the anchors that have loosened up wouldn't have even made it to the lower maintainence torque of 80'lbs.
You're being silly comparing a 4 post to a two post anchor. The 4 post supports itself from levering. The 2 post not. 4 post the need to be tight is not as important. Essentially with 4 post you're preventing movement across the floor. With 2 post it supports the leverage at the top when loaded with a vehicle. Completely different engineering needed.
My guess is you installed them improperly...I've had mine in for 21 years check torque every month...always stayed at proper torque
Use hilti 2 part epoxy and the hilti threaded bolts
You're speech ignores the most vital component...the concrete. If it powders the wedge nor the epoxy will hold. Safety goes out the window. You can buy concrete that is designed for such use (or not).
Or the absolute strongest way to place the anchors, is to make a template of baseplate,and bolt the L anchor to the wooden or metal template. For added strength, weld rebar,from one L anchor to another,to form a cage. Then place it when the concrete poured.
You are very smart using epoxy to replace those wedge anchors. So much torque on the bolts from the leverage of the weight pulling the towers over at an angle under load means you need superior anchoring. Be sure to create a pocket under the concrete and fill it with the epoxy priot to inserting the all thead rod. This will give not only an epoxy bond but will make the epoxy act like a wedge as well. Use a vacuum to remove some of the aggregate after drilling then fill. Get more than one container of expoxy. One will not do.
I believe...that if your vehicle is perfectly balanced on the lift....in theory.....you could remove all the anchor nuts, without the lift falling over...?.EXCEPT.....if it's a lift with a floor plate????
Epoxy is way better than wedge. Good job. Deeper is even better.
I guess I didn't see the whole video here's another tip on removing the anchors an old professional showed me the other way just widens the hole this way the whole stays the same size all you do is push the rod deeper into the hole it won't hurt anything and the epoxy should get deeper the deeper you push the old stud this is not going to hurt anything and it's going to save a lot of time and the size of that anchor hole😮😮😮😮😮