Hello all, thank you for taking the time to watch and comment. There is an error at 20:50; the arrows are not pointing to the elevators in the image; my mistake, far too many late nights and early mornings and having "Elevons" going round and round in my head. Thank you, Joe
My Dad flew the Javelin on 85Sqn at West Raynham in the early 60’s. His take was that the early marques were not great, but the Mk8 and 9 were very capable. 85 squadron had the Mk 8 when we were there and Dad described the aircraft as a solid all weather night interceptor which handled well and was reliable. It was his second tour on 85 and he had very fond memories of the squadron and the Javelin.
@@gusgone4527 I did sort of. After passing aircrew selection at Biggen Hill and joining the OCTU at Henlow, was found out to get hayfever and immediately told I couldn’t fly with such an allergy. They offered me Air Traffic Control, or Flight Control Officer which I turned down. I couldn’t imagine being in the RAF as a non pilot and left after just 29 days. I do fly and to this day, co-own a Robin aircraft as well as a 2 seat high performance glider with nearly 4,000hrs flying time, so never gave up on my dream of becoming the third generation pilot in our family. My Grandfather served as a pilot in the RFC, later the RAF in Palestine during the 1st War, my Dad served during the 2nd war for the last few months on Mosquitoes and lucky for me, there was no war to experience, only recreational flying to enjoy.
Thank you very much. It's always fun, the trouble is that when researching it is very easy to get distracted with all the amazing stories, that I forget why I am researching. :-) Joe
In a cardboard box in the loft is my 1963 built plastic kit of the Javelin, in my opinion the most beautiful early jet of all... The first plastic kit I made on my own.
@@Rich6Brew I am living with motor neuron disease so at the moment the loft is two floors above my ceiling. At some stage I hope to persuade the most athletic of my children to rescue the box - Frog sounds plausible...
Very pleased you liked the video, makes it worth the effort, although, admittedly I do enjoy every second of the process,. More videos out soon :-) Joe
As a teen used to watch javelins at RAF leuchars and enjoyed watching them land and take off. Lightenings were also on base at that time but they were infrequent in flying around. Always thought they were more appealing than the sea vixen to me, but after going through comparisons in performance it seems the RAF was really wrong in their choice over the two competitors. Guess they were tired of the twin boom venom and wanted a more futuristic looking fighter. Didn’t know they were so difficult to pull out of a spin and hard to loop. Thanks for the video very informative.
I remember as a boy at RAF Cottesmore's Battle of Britain display, my father and godfather ( RAF engineer and pilot respectively) were less than complimentary about the Javelin parked there. Can't remember their exact words but suffice it to say they were not impressed with the aircraft.
During my research I came across a few of the unkind things said about the Jav, but for me I always think, well, this was cutting edge tech for the day, sure there were going to be issues. For me, she is a very pretty aircraft, although that's not saying much since I think every aircraft is pretty, even the Gannet. :- )Joe
Excellent documentary. Great review of material. I, myself, attempted a similar review on the Javelin and got a lot of data about this plane. Some comments: WD804 did also use an anti-spin parachute inside a large detachable fairing at the middle of the stabilizator. During some time it had to employ some kind of framed metallic tube fences on both sides of the large fairing to avoid interfering with the elevators, until they could solve the problem with a restraint inside the fairing. It wasn't an exclusive hardware for the second prototype and I guess, it was also applied on other prototypes too, specially after WD808's accident.-
I think there's an error in signaling the elevators lost in WD804. The lost ones were those in tailplane over the fin. Not the ailerons which are shown in your video by blue arrows. The javelin was a delta plane but was a very unorthodox delta: it was a tailed delta; that is, it didn't need elevons. It managed the standard, usual control surfaces: ailerons, elevators and rudder... and flaps. Yes. It is not common seeing delta planes equipped with flaps. The Javelin had one under each wing to reduce landing speed and landing distance and they were very useful. These flaps were not placed at the very trailing edge but slightly ahead and it seems they did not use the wing's upper side airflow.
Yes, I seemed to have messed up during the editing, I was probably thinking of elevons, ailerons, elevators, long nights, etc, etc, I pinned a comment when the video went out alerting to this error. Thanks for pointing it out, shows that people are watching like HAWKS!!! :-) Joe
Had a look at XH767 at Elvington in May this year - she's in a sorry state for such a great aircraft, a real shame. She's hidden away at the back of the airfield.
Some of the confusion over different marks is solved by the entry into service dates. The FAW4 followed the FAW1 into service and had the all-flying tail, vortex generators, bosom fuel tanks and stall warning. This was followed by the FAW5 with all the same features plus the new wing with extra fuel. The FAW2 was next, a few months before the FAW6 (same production line), the entry ino service was FAW2 to 46 Sqn, FAW2 + FAW6 (8 of each) to 89 Sqn (later renumbered 85 Sqn) FAW6 to 29 Sqn. FAW7 was next to enter service followed by the T3, then FAW8, FAW9 and finally FAW9R.
The German WW2 Fieseler, FZG 76 a compact jet plane, being converted eventually turned into guided unmanned flying bomb, was the jet plane most produced during the war, with nearly 30,000 built. They cruised above the speed of defending aircraft. The most successful jet aircraft ever.
It usually means there have been less than a hundred other TH-cam videos about a subject. When a video says “first ever” it means less than fifty other videos.
I think the arrows are pointing to the Ailerons at 02:40 as the elevators are on the tail plane. It would be a difficult plane to fly if there were two sets of elevators?
Typical, I must have gone through the video about 10 times to make sure had not messed anything up and I manage to miss that, well done Joe :-) Thanks for pointing that out. I will add a pinned comment.
Got to remember, the first flight was in 1951! The infancy of jet Aviation. BUT, within a five year period immediately flowing the Javelin, the US started producing a flurry of excellent, fast, and long lived military jets. And so did many others soon after that. Jet aviation was starting to zoom.
Sorry to hear that, the museum is well worth a visit. the people there are great, there is something very charming about the place. Going back soon :-) Joe
A well researched article, unfortunately all the books on the Javelin have serious errors so research is flawed. The number of FAW7s converted to FAW9 was 116, 76 would not give you 6 squadrons. 44 were produced with in-flight refuelling and 40 of these were converted to FAW9R. No Javelin ever flew non-stop to Singapore - 3 or 4 stops were used. The longest non-stop flight was to Khorkaksar(Aden) in 8 hours 34 minutes. Only 41 and 85 Sqns flew FAW8s. In the case of the US pilot killed looping the Javelin, the navigator survived (XA751, 41 Sqn 11/7/58).
Thank you for the info, this was a particularly challenging aircraft to research since there were so many contradictory sources, that at times I thought of binning the whole project. - However, I am glad I didn't, ultimately she is a very interesting aircraft created in a very interesting period of British aviation. I hope to get the second part out soon, do you have any recommendations for reliable sources? Cheers, Joe
@@AviationRepublic There was only one reliable source for the Javelin, a writer named Roger Lindsay. He produced two lithographs - Javelin 1 to 6 in 1975 and 7 to 9R in 1979, but these were only available from his home address and I am lucky to have two very dogeared copies. The next book, in 1983 was Gloster Javelin by Maurice Allward, it was unlikely that he read the earlier books and complained that the entire Javelin history had been lost or disseminated. His book was the start of the errors with each subsequent book repeating them and adding new ones. My own background was as RAF groundcrew over the full service life of the Javelin and I was on 64 and 60 Sqns during the final years. I have made a study of all aspects of the Javelin and corrected many sites and articles. I am a member of the Gloster Javelin Appreciaton Society on Facebook but it not very active today - too many old Javelin hands dying out. My name is Clive Kilgour- Email :barkfield39@yahoo.co.uk - feel free to ask for any assistance, I have masses of detailed information.
I found your documentary very informative , but found it jarred on some pronunciation of at least 2 places the first being RAF Odiham ( pronounced Oh -Dee -Ham ) and your pronunciation of RAF Leuchars ( pronounced Loo -cars ) not Loychars ! All in all pretty good , thank you
Thank you, i really appreciate it, makes the effort of the research worth, although i do enjoy it regardless, sorry about the pronunciations, I will get it right at some point :-) Joe
There was a squadron of Javelins, 33 Squadron, based at RAF Middleton St George. My school was on the approach and I used to get told off for watching them fly over. A small fact, the saviour of steam locomotive 60532 Blue Peter, Geoff Drury was once a Javelin pilot and he said he was still on speaking terms with his navigator.
I can imagine the teachers in the 50's and 60's "bassetdad437......bassetdad437 .....pay attention.......what is the square root of 1,234,323,667.....quickly now bassetdad437.....no dawdling boy!" You can't beat the old school masters, I think I was the last generation that the teachers were still allowed to whack us with rulers and blackboard cleaning blocks,,,ah, the good old days. :-) Joe
Very interesting presentation, I have a couple of Javelin connections , I was one of a small team that dismantled the Javelin at RAF Stanmore to go the Thunder City in South Africa, sadly Ive just heard that it's been scrapped which is sad , also my dad was Fleet Air Arm he remembers them out in I think Borneo, dad said they were so unreliable the Fleet Air Arm did the bulk of the air cover this was born but an old friend who was ground crew on Valiants and the Valiant tanker he said most of his time in the far east was spent helping the Javelin ground crew to try and keep them serviceable
Interservice rivalry is common, Fleet Air Arm were rarely seen during Confrontation and Javelins of 60 and 64 Sqn patrolled over Kuching, Labuan, Butterworth and Tengah and were constanly airborne - I was groundcrew. During the Javelin years in the Far East, 1961 to 1968 there was never a need of Valiants for inflight refuelling and no Javelin based in the Far East ever carried a refuelling probe.
@@trigger399 This was all told to me a long time ago but interesting my friend on the Valiants mentioned it was well , he's in his mid 80's now so when I speak to him I will ask again for the details,
@@trigger399 This was all told to me a long time ago i only mentioned that my friend was on Valiant and later the the Valiant tanker fleet , I just remembered when he was on deployment he said he spent a lot of time helping the Javelin crews . All interesting never the less
@@BerlietGBC There is a great quote in the preface to "Javelin Boys", by Gp.Capt.Palmer -" As all octogenarians will know, the passing years play tricks on one's memory - some of our greatest stories are about things that never happened at all!"
My parents used to take the family for holidays on the Norfolk Broads in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Formations of Javelins would often pass overhead quite low. As they approached they made a sort of droning sound, pulsating due to the engines running at slightly different speeds. This sound turned into a thunderous roar as the aircraft passed directly overhead. An article appeared in "Meccano Magazine" in the early 1960s about researchers using a "Dinky Toys" (subsidiary of Meccano Ltd) model of the Javelin to investigate the behaviour in supersonic flight. The landing gear was removed from the model and it was shot from a gun using a sabot (cylindrical holder that fitted the gun barrel and fell away from the model after coming out of the gun). By some high-speed photography technique the article had a photo of the shock waves produced by the model.
it was a spectacular feat of flying. I have tried it in a light airplane, using just throttle, trim and rudder...it's not easy, can't even imagine how he did it in a beast like the Jav/ :-) Joe
@@AviationRepublic not sure , I'm an ex-lightning guy. The guardroom is now a tea room and I think it's open tomorrow 21/08 they'll be able let you know. If you Google 'His Church' it'll bring up Binbrook guardroom and a phone number.
As much as it pains me not to have the exact footage, since period correct film of the Javelin is as rare as hens teeth. I am considering using footage from games such as War Thunder, but I will ask the subscribers if this is acceptable.
RAF Odiham is pronounced O-de-ham not odd-i-ham. Leuchars is pronounced loo-kars - its a hard "ch". These is probably the worst of the many mispronunciation of RAF station names. Apart from that, good video.
TU-4 was more likely to crash on Takeoff than it was to hit its Target!Stalin was one hell of a Chess Player as the Soviets didn't have a reliable Bomber until the TU-95 came along.
What a shame those wonderful planes are just left outside in the open on display, what would the cost be to build canopies over them, and repaint and rust treat them..
To use the appellation once might be acceptable, but an infatuation with annointing a mechanical object with repeated 'she' references very quickly begins to sound both odd and stunted. It's an it. Try it.
Honestly, I can't, I have tried, but it's like calling my wife or kids "Oi you" It's an old habit that I have trouble breaking, for instance i still call everyone "Sir" after over 30 years after having left skool. I will try, but I can't make any promises. :- ) Joe
I'm not sure political ineptitude is to blame as we were broke after WW2 and jets were still fairly cutting edge. So we had to invest in the best as that was all our resources available, a one-and-done deal.
And despite the funding some cutting edge aircraft were developed and a lot of aerodynamic data acquired. The same data that others with deeper wallets benefited from including our generous sharing of engines and technicians. It is a shame that others choose to take full credit for work originally undertaken in the UK. He who shouts loudest etc etc..
The issue as I understood it, was that they should have known that they were, as your rightly put it, dealing with cutting edge tech for the time, and having only a few prototypes was not going to cut it. Sure we were broke, but, expecting to perform all the flight testing on a handful of prototypes was wishful thinking. But, that's just my opinion.
One shall not have mixed feelings, one shall love all winged machines without question.......Duxford in a few weeks when I get a gimbal to stop the "shaky hands" :-) Joe
You are referring to XH897 the FAW.9 and used by the A&AEE, in Red and white paint scheme? If so, then, yes, she is an interesting looking beast, hoping to go there in September as I have a list of aircraft I need to film. :-) Joe
Well, sure, but here's the thing, considering the UK had limited resources, it was not a terrible effort. Going back to the Midland Air Museum this Friday where they have the last of the FAW5. I shall give her few pats and tell that I still love her :-) Joe
You see, I am torn, I used to think that, but we have to consider when she was built, after the war we were poorer than church mice, so 10/10 for effort, 0/10 for exploding/sandpaper engines :- )Joe
@@AviationRepublic Good point but we are talking of a time when the RAF had literally hundreds and hundreds of airframes and thousands of personnel. They also developed several types simultaneously as insurance. The three V bombers for example. A safe procurement strategy during WWII but an unnecessary expense afterwards. Too many companies competing for slices of a dwindling pie! The Bigger Picture. Unfortunately the MOD were as inept at procurement back then as they are today. But it was not all down to finances. It was a problem compounded deliberately by wishy washy labour politicians. Some of whom had greater allegiance to the Kremlin than Q & C. If only our friends in MI5/6 would release the files on the socialist movement of the 1950s through to the 1980s. At least those files that Blair and Prescot did not have destroyed in 1997. It's a real Pandoras box of eye openers. Jack Jones and Michael Foot were the tip of the iceberg rather than loan wolves. Ask around, the data is still available if one knows where to look. Alas, it's all just water under the bridge. With little hope of learning lessons from past mistakes.
Although undoubtedly 'modern', its general design never impressed me. It looks clumsy and totally without the sleek lines of the Hunter. More 'retro' is hard to find in an early '50s jet
Not surprised "she" (? why) wasn't loved if it had a habit of ejecting the pilot without warning, the engines exploded on start up and it might tear itself apart in clouds.
Referring to a machine as 'She' goes back 150 years and is a term of endearment, early machines were at the very least temperamental and engineers, pilots and drivers would talk kindly whilst they fettled and fiddles to get them running. So machines, ships, cars, Tanks, Sub's, Locomotives, Steam engines and aircraft have the preferred pronoun 'She'.
@@AviationRepublic Yes the Rover jet one. With the idiots, we have in charge of this country and still have right up to this day it seems ridiculous that we're still here.
I hear you however the museum is short of funds and volunteers, unfortunately this is the situation of several museums and sadly some aircraft have been lost. If you can see past the weathering you will see the aircraft still exists and hopefully will in the future be given the attention is deserves. You can show your passion for historical aircraft by visiting a museum and making a small donation. Thanks.
They rely heavily on volunteers to assist keeping the machines in tip top condition, but finding volunteers is challenging. honestly the place it worth a visit, even if it to chat to the lads who work there. Plus for me there is a certain charm to the place, but I suppose I am a little biased as I am a bit fond of "slightly" scruffy looking machines. :-) Joe
True, I hope to volunteer there in a few months, I have plenty of PTO to take that it is a no brainer. I don't have many skills to offer, but I can hold a bucket and sponge. :-) Joe
@@AviationRepublic Interesting video and well written and narrated, that was a lot of work. Ref your thoughts on helping care for aircraft. Take a look at Mr Hewes channel, he is into tanks however he is in contact with a collection of aircraft and as a fellow content provider may have some inside info for you. Check out " Exploring The Last Flying Handley Page Victor " As explained above not all airframes can be cared for however if they are not scraped then there is a chance for a second life. The community needs to stay close and when there is a call to arms to rescue and airframe, do their best. One of Mr Hewes videos is of a chum who cleans the Victor, something I think you would enjoy. The following article is of this Victors last flight. A retired RAF bomber pilot is being hailed a hero after a museum-owned Handley Page Victor, a Cold War nuclear bomber, took off accidentally during an air show in Bruntingthorpe, England in May. Video of the incident came to light this week. The Daily Mail is reporting that the bomber, which hasn't flown in 20 years, was supposed to taxi down the runway as a photo opportunity. For reasons that remain unclear, the unidentified volunteer right seater firewalled the throttles and within a few seconds the Victor was in its natural element. Bob Prothero, 70, a former squadron commander who last slipped the surly bonds in a Victor in the 1980s, was in the left seat and screamed for the engineer to cut the power but the next thing he knew he was back in the saddle again for the "most terrifying nine seconds of my life." There was a brisk crosswind that day and on takeoff the 75-ton aircraft immediately drifted left, on course for a housing development. Prothero had to decide whether to attempt a go-around in an unmaintained aircraft or put it down. He headed for the grass at the end of the runway and brought it to a stop on the generous overrun, with occupants and aircraft apparently none the worse for wear. "Nobody could really believe what had happened," he told the Daily Mail. " There were people slapping me on the back and congratulating me on not crashing the thing and ruining the day." Britain's Civil Aviation Authority has investigated and decided against charges. [AVweb com]
Your title missed something, “and a complete pile of crap!”. There that’s better. It was an awful design produced by a post war aviation industry that was shooting in every direction in the hopes of hitting on a winner, unfortunately the huge number of companies going for the same contract meant that the aircraft went from idea to production aircraft at frightening speed where the role of the test pilot was reduced from explaining how awful the design was and what needed to be changed, to telling the crews what not to do if they wanted to stay alive. In short, crap.
You make very valid points, however, I can't bring myself to call it crap, it would pain me to do so, despite it having numerous flaws. But I agree that test pilots in those days were treated as almost expendable. I presume you have read the book "The Quick and the Dead", Bill Waterton pretty much spells it out how the aviation and defense bureaucracy prioritised speed and cost over the lives and safety of the test pilots. :-) Joe
The reheat they had were pretty much only good over 20,000ft. Still, not too bad for the day and considering here in the UK after the war, everything was on a shoestring budget. :-) Joe
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Hello all, thank you for taking the time to watch and comment. There is an error at 20:50; the arrows are not pointing to the elevators in the image; my mistake, far too many late nights and early mornings and having "Elevons" going round and round in my head.
Thank you, Joe
My Dad flew the Javelin on 85Sqn at West Raynham in the early 60’s. His take was that the early marques were not great, but the Mk8 and 9 were very capable. 85 squadron had the Mk 8 when we were there and Dad described the aircraft as a solid all weather night interceptor which handled well and was reliable. It was his second tour on 85 and he had very fond memories of the squadron and the Javelin.
Thank you, to you and your father for this contribution.
Did you follow him into the armed forces?
@@gusgone4527 I did sort of. After passing aircrew selection at Biggen Hill and joining the OCTU at Henlow, was found out to get hayfever and immediately told I couldn’t fly with such an allergy. They offered me Air Traffic Control, or Flight Control Officer which I turned down. I couldn’t imagine being in the RAF as a non pilot and left after just 29 days.
I do fly and to this day, co-own a Robin aircraft as well as a 2 seat high performance glider with nearly 4,000hrs flying time, so never gave up on my dream of becoming the third generation pilot in our family. My Grandfather served as a pilot in the RFC, later the RAF in Palestine during the 1st War, my Dad served during the 2nd war for the last few months on Mosquitoes and lucky for me, there was no war to experience, only recreational flying to enjoy.
Thankyou for this. I can see alot of time went into researching and making this video. Keep up the good work. You're keeping aviation history alive.
Thank you, every single one of these machines deserve their story told.
Very well done. Can't wait for part 2!
Thank you, part two is still in the works, coming soon :-) Joe
You did an excellent job on compiling this information
Thank you very much. It's always fun, the trouble is that when researching it is very easy to get distracted with all the amazing stories, that I forget why I am researching. :-) Joe
@@ivoryjohnson4662 I second this!
In a cardboard box in the loft is my 1963 built plastic kit of the Javelin, in my opinion the most beautiful early jet of all... The first plastic kit I made on my own.
Let's go, get that model out of the loft, dust it off and put it on the mantle piece. :-) Joe
I wouldn't say it was a beautiful jet, as the tail was far too big for that and it had a fat nose.But it was certainly striking looking.
Frog? I also still have mine from the same era.
@@Rich6Brew I am living with motor neuron disease so at the moment the loft is two floors above my ceiling. At some stage I hope to persuade the most athletic of my children to rescue the box - Frog sounds plausible...
I have one too. Built at the same time. It was pre Lightning and cutting edge
I frequently used to travel past RAF Stafford on the bus when I was a kid. The gate guardian was a Javelin. Fantastic looking jet
She is a very striking looking machine, definitely makes you stop and look. :-) Joe
That must of been a lot of work putting that together thank you it was absolutely brilliant 👏
It was! But very enjoyable. The problem is always deciding what to put in and what to leave out, I am very pleased you enjoyed it. :-) Joe
Great Documentary, very thorough covering all the marks and their history. Very well done, thank you.
Thank you so much, I am currently working on part two :-) Joe
perfect timing on this upload! watching this whilst i apply the finishing touches to my airfix 1/48 javelin. its done as xh903, as shown in the vid
it was fate, I wish I had the time to take up modelling again. I miss those days, I hope she turns out well. :-) Joe
Yeay! Thank You good Sir for covering my most favourite aircraft! 😊
Honestly, I wasn't expecting it so fast 😎
Glad you enjoyed it! She was a really interesting machine to research, going to start on part 2 soon. :-) jOE
Great video. I had two airfix models of the Javelin as a kid. 😊
Two!!, no need to show off :-) Joe
This was so interesting, thank you for your hard work.
Very pleased you liked the video, makes it worth the effort, although, admittedly I do enjoy every second of the process,. More videos out soon :-) Joe
Anyone says the Eurofighter Typhoon is a copy of a Mirage... i point them to this aircraft.
Well presented episode with lots of detail. Thankyou.
Glad you enjoyed it :-) Joe
As a teen used to watch javelins at RAF leuchars and enjoyed watching them land and take off. Lightenings were also on base at that time but they were infrequent in flying around. Always thought they were more appealing than the sea vixen to me, but after going through comparisons in performance it seems the RAF was really wrong in their choice over the two competitors. Guess they were tired of the twin boom venom and wanted a more futuristic looking fighter. Didn’t know they were so difficult to pull out of a spin and hard to loop. Thanks for the video very informative.
They had javelins at R.A.F stradishall in suffolk in the 1950s.Thank you for this upload much enjoyed 😊. P.s Love the Javelin😊👍👍😊
Glad you enjoyed it, part 2 in the works :-) Joe
I remember as a boy at RAF Cottesmore's Battle of Britain display, my father and godfather ( RAF engineer and pilot respectively) were less than complimentary about the Javelin parked there. Can't remember their exact words but suffice it to say they were not impressed with the aircraft.
During my research I came across a few of the unkind things said about the Jav, but for me I always think, well, this was cutting edge tech for the day, sure there were going to be issues. For me, she is a very pretty aircraft, although that's not saying much since I think every aircraft is pretty, even the Gannet. :- )Joe
Excellent documentary. Great review of material. I, myself, attempted a similar review on the Javelin and got a lot of data about this plane. Some comments: WD804 did also use an anti-spin parachute inside a large detachable fairing at the middle of the stabilizator. During some time it had to employ some kind of framed metallic tube fences on both sides of the large fairing to avoid interfering with the elevators, until they could solve the problem with a restraint inside the fairing. It wasn't an exclusive hardware for the second prototype and I guess, it was also applied on other prototypes too, specially after WD808's accident.-
I think there's an error in signaling the elevators lost in WD804. The lost ones were those in tailplane over the fin. Not the ailerons which are shown in your video by blue arrows. The javelin was a delta plane but was a very unorthodox delta: it was a tailed delta; that is, it didn't need elevons. It managed the standard, usual control surfaces: ailerons, elevators and rudder... and flaps. Yes. It is not common seeing delta planes equipped with flaps. The Javelin had one under each wing to reduce landing speed and landing distance and they were very useful. These flaps were not placed at the very trailing edge but slightly ahead and it seems they did not use the wing's upper side airflow.
Yes, I seemed to have messed up during the editing, I was probably thinking of elevons, ailerons, elevators, long nights, etc, etc, I pinned a comment when the video went out alerting to this error. Thanks for pointing it out, shows that people are watching like HAWKS!!! :-) Joe
When I grew up in Geilenkirchen we had 5 and 11 Sqn so I saw allot of the aircraft very close from the top of 11 Sqd hill.
Those were the days, say what you like about the Soviet Union, but they caused us to build some interesting machines. :-) Joe
My father flew the early mk1's with 46 squadron from Odiham, Hants.
Wow, I bet you have some interesting stories. :-) Joe
Great video. Im looking forward to the 2nd install. 😅
You and me both! Working on it at the moment. :-) Joe
When i was a kid, in the 70s, i really loved this plane and preferred it to the Hunter. It just had a great look.
Had a look at XH767 at Elvington in May this year - she's in a sorry state for such a great aircraft, a real shame. She's hidden away at the back of the airfield.
Elvington is on my list to visit. :-) Joe
Some of the confusion over different marks is solved by the entry into service dates. The FAW4 followed the FAW1 into service and had the all-flying tail, vortex generators, bosom fuel tanks and stall warning. This was followed by the FAW5 with all the same features plus the new wing with extra fuel. The FAW2 was next, a few months before the FAW6 (same production line), the entry ino service was FAW2 to 46 Sqn, FAW2 + FAW6 (8 of each) to 89 Sqn (later renumbered 85 Sqn) FAW6 to 29 Sqn. FAW7 was next to enter service followed by the T3, then FAW8, FAW9 and finally FAW9R.
Excellent video, I did not heard much about the Javelin before this. Thanks.
Thank you very much. She is a very interesting aircraft. - Joe
Fantastic video, looking forward to hearing about the thin wing Javelin - one note Leuchars is pronounced LOOKHeRS 😉
Thanks for that, got to work on the pronunciations of these various places. 2nd part is being worked on. :-) Joe
...& LOUDER
Damn....right, give me a few minutes :-) Joe
The pioneering days were not yet over.
Not yet :-) Joe
Maybe the Lightning was a pioneer aswell. Yet, the Hunter was more or less a thoroughbred.
The Hunter was a sports Jets, lovely machine, almost imagine Enzo Ferrari drawing her lines.
Absolutely!
The German WW2 Fieseler, FZG 76 a compact jet plane, being converted eventually turned into guided unmanned flying bomb, was the jet plane most produced during the war, with nearly 30,000 built. They cruised above the speed of defending aircraft. The most successful jet aircraft ever.
Forgotten by whom ?
It usually means there have been less than a hundred other TH-cam videos about a subject. When a video says “first ever” it means less than fifty other videos.
I feel that she's not as well known as the Hunter, Sea Vixen, Vulcan outside of the aviation community.
Come on Airfix...
New tool 1/72!!
I just looked it up on their site, they have 1/48, but out of stock....
I think the arrows are pointing to the Ailerons at 02:40 as the elevators are on the tail plane. It would be a difficult plane to fly if there were two sets of elevators?
Typical, I must have gone through the video about 10 times to make sure had not messed anything up and I manage to miss that, well done Joe :-) Thanks for pointing that out. I will add a pinned comment.
@@AviationRepublic Great video anyway.
Thank you.
Got to remember, the first flight was in 1951! The infancy of jet Aviation. BUT, within a five year period immediately flowing the Javelin, the US started producing a flurry of excellent, fast, and long lived military jets. And so did many others soon after that. Jet aviation was starting to zoom.
Great u got to visit the museum - I feel very unlucky: 3 days layover at EMA but museum closed Monday till Wednesday….😢
Sorry to hear that, the museum is well worth a visit. the people there are great, there is something very charming about the place. Going back soon :-) Joe
USAF?
@@Red_Lion2000 no, Bizzjets
A well researched article, unfortunately all the books on the Javelin have serious errors so research is flawed. The number of FAW7s converted to FAW9 was 116, 76 would not give you 6 squadrons. 44 were produced with in-flight refuelling and 40 of these were converted to FAW9R. No Javelin ever flew non-stop to Singapore - 3 or 4 stops were used. The longest non-stop flight was to Khorkaksar(Aden) in 8 hours 34 minutes. Only 41 and 85 Sqns flew FAW8s. In the case of the US pilot killed looping the Javelin, the navigator survived (XA751, 41 Sqn 11/7/58).
I forgot the dimensions - FAW1,4, 5, 7 and 9 were 56ft 4 in, 2,6 and 8 were 55ft 2 and a half inches, although the radome was larger.
Thank you for the info, this was a particularly challenging aircraft to research since there were so many contradictory sources, that at times I thought of binning the whole project. - However, I am glad I didn't, ultimately she is a very interesting aircraft created in a very interesting period of British aviation. I hope to get the second part out soon, do you have any recommendations for reliable sources? Cheers, Joe
@@AviationRepublic There was only one reliable source for the Javelin, a writer named Roger Lindsay. He produced two lithographs - Javelin 1 to 6 in 1975 and 7 to 9R in 1979, but these were only available from his home address and I am lucky to have two very dogeared copies. The next book, in 1983 was Gloster Javelin by Maurice Allward, it was unlikely that he read the earlier books and complained that the entire Javelin history had been lost or disseminated. His book was the start of the errors with each subsequent book repeating them and adding new ones. My own background was as RAF groundcrew over the full service life of the Javelin and I was on 64 and 60 Sqns during the final years. I have made a study of all aspects of the Javelin and corrected many sites and articles. I am a member of the Gloster Javelin Appreciaton Society on Facebook but it not very active today - too many old Javelin hands dying out. My name is Clive Kilgour- Email :barkfield39@yahoo.co.uk - feel free to ask for any assistance, I have masses of detailed information.
I found your documentary very informative , but found it jarred on some pronunciation of at least 2 places the first being RAF Odiham ( pronounced Oh -Dee -Ham ) and your pronunciation of RAF Leuchars ( pronounced Loo -cars ) not Loychars !
All in all pretty good , thank you
Thank you, i really appreciate it, makes the effort of the research worth, although i do enjoy it regardless, sorry about the pronunciations, I will get it right at some point :-) Joe
There was a squadron of Javelins, 33 Squadron, based at RAF Middleton St George. My school was on the approach and I used to get told off for watching them fly over. A small fact, the saviour of steam locomotive 60532 Blue Peter, Geoff Drury was once a Javelin pilot and he said he was still on speaking terms with his navigator.
I can imagine the teachers in the 50's and 60's "bassetdad437......bassetdad437 .....pay attention.......what is the square root of 1,234,323,667.....quickly now bassetdad437.....no dawdling boy!"
You can't beat the old school masters, I think I was the last generation that the teachers were still allowed to whack us with rulers and blackboard cleaning blocks,,,ah, the good old days. :-) Joe
Very interesting presentation, I have a couple of Javelin connections , I was one of a small team that dismantled the Javelin at RAF Stanmore to go the Thunder City in South Africa, sadly Ive just heard that it's been scrapped which is sad , also my dad was Fleet Air Arm he remembers them out in I think Borneo, dad said they were so unreliable the Fleet Air Arm did the bulk of the air cover this was born but an old friend who was ground crew on Valiants and the Valiant tanker he said most of his time in the far east was spent helping the Javelin ground crew to try and keep them serviceable
Interservice rivalry is common, Fleet Air Arm were rarely seen during Confrontation and Javelins of 60 and 64 Sqn patrolled over Kuching, Labuan, Butterworth and Tengah and were constanly airborne - I was groundcrew. During the Javelin years in the Far East, 1961 to 1968 there was never a need of Valiants for inflight refuelling and no Javelin based in the Far East ever carried a refuelling probe.
@@trigger399 This was all told to me a long time ago but interesting my friend on the Valiants mentioned it was well , he's in his mid 80's now so when I speak to him I will ask again for the details,
@@trigger399 This was all told to me a long time ago i only mentioned that my friend was on Valiant and later the the Valiant tanker fleet , I just remembered when he was on deployment he said he spent a lot of time helping the Javelin crews . All interesting never the less
@@BerlietGBC There is a great quote in the preface to "Javelin Boys", by Gp.Capt.Palmer -" As all octogenarians will know, the passing years play tricks on one's memory - some of our greatest stories are about things that never happened at all!"
My parents used to take the family for holidays on the Norfolk Broads in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Formations of Javelins would often pass overhead quite low. As they approached they made a sort of droning sound, pulsating due to the engines running at slightly different speeds. This sound turned into a thunderous roar as the aircraft passed directly overhead.
An article appeared in "Meccano Magazine" in the early 1960s about researchers using a "Dinky Toys" (subsidiary of Meccano Ltd) model of the Javelin to investigate the behaviour in supersonic flight. The landing gear was removed from the model and it was shot from a gun using a sabot (cylindrical holder that fitted the gun barrel and fell away from the model after coming out of the gun). By some high-speed photography technique the article had a photo of the shock waves produced by the model.
@51.50 I assume you referred to RAF Leuchars, which is pronounced "lookers". Although "loichers" does have a certain ring to it and made me giggle
From now on, It shall be called "Loichers", I will get it right next time. :-) Joe
@AviationRepublic
I enjoyed the video, certainly a handsome looking big bird
Lost the elevators and dude got it on the ground? Pretty impressive
it was a spectacular feat of flying. I have tried it in a light airplane, using just throttle, trim and rudder...it's not easy, can't even imagine how he did it in a beast like the Jav/ :-) Joe
Javelin looks like the Buccaneers Fighter Brother!
Some say she looks like a "plumper" Tornado..... :-) Joe
@@AviationRepublic A Tubby Tornado, I like that XD
57:20 didn’t you begin this upload saying that the one being filmed at Midlands Air Museum was the only one left???
It is the only Mk5 left (FAW5)
@@AviationRepublic Ah! You tricky chap you, I’ll be watching your videos on half speed soon to make sure I absorb everything 😂😂😂😂🙏☘️
Great effort, correction: it’s can’t be over stated. It’s very easy to understate something, don’t mention it
Thank you, I will have to check my Engerlish :-) Joe
Visited Binbrook today they have one behind the guardroom in the rub with two lightenings,
I think that's a FAW 4, is that right?
@@AviationRepublic not sure , I'm an ex-lightning guy. The guardroom is now a tea room and I think it's open tomorrow 21/08 they'll be able let you know. If you Google 'His Church' it'll bring up Binbrook guardroom and a phone number.
Thanks, I might give that a go. Thanks - Joe
The radars fitted are Airborne Intercept or AI not A1. Note easy to tell from some typefaces.
Why is the flat spin aircraft an F4?35.40 min
As much as it pains me not to have the exact footage, since period correct film of the Javelin is as rare as hens teeth. I am considering using footage from games such as War Thunder, but I will ask the subscribers if this is acceptable.
England was a real aviation leader a this era.
At*
It is a Tornado fetus.
Now you mention it, She does look like the Tonka.
She looks like a slight "plumper" version of the Tornado.
Is this fabulous for $sale if by any chance.?
Technically, with enough cash, everything can be for sale. Where would you park her?
Where did you get the headline from ?? than a Spitfire maybe
RAF Odiham is pronounced O-de-ham not odd-i-ham. Leuchars is pronounced loo-kars - its a hard "ch". These is probably the worst of the many mispronunciation of RAF station names. Apart from that, good video.
Yeah, got to work on these bizarre words, Will get the pronunciations right for Part 2 :-) Joe
TU-4 was more likely to crash on Takeoff than it was to hit its Target!Stalin was one hell of a Chess Player as the Soviets didn't have a reliable Bomber until the TU-95 came along.
Got to hand it to those early test pilots, Russian, American, British, they all had undercarriages of steel :-) Joe
Glad to see it eventually got to show its name properly with what looks like a javellin (fueling nosel) on the F.A.W9😂
Ah good point....you get it? Point? Never mind...I'll be here all week :-) Joe
What a shame those wonderful planes are just left outside in the open on display, what would the cost be to build canopies over them, and repaint and rust treat them..
56:39 Saab 37 Viggen spotted!
I always thought the Javelin was a fighter which really needed to go on a diet.
She is a little "Plump"
To use the appellation once might be acceptable, but an infatuation with annointing a mechanical object with repeated 'she' references very quickly begins to sound both odd and stunted. It's an it. Try it.
Honestly, I can't, I have tried, but it's like calling my wife or kids "Oi you" It's an old habit that I have trouble breaking, for instance i still call everyone "Sir" after over 30 years after having left skool. I will try, but I can't make any promises. :- ) Joe
I'm not sure political ineptitude is to blame as we were broke after WW2 and jets were still fairly cutting edge. So we had to invest in the best as that was all our resources available, a one-and-done deal.
And despite the funding some cutting edge aircraft were developed and a lot of aerodynamic data acquired. The same data that others with deeper wallets benefited from including our generous sharing of engines and technicians. It is a shame that others choose to take full credit for work originally undertaken in the UK. He who shouts loudest etc etc..
The issue as I understood it, was that they should have known that they were, as your rightly put it, dealing with cutting edge tech for the time, and having only a few prototypes was not going to cut it. Sure we were broke, but, expecting to perform all the flight testing on a handful of prototypes was wishful thinking. But, that's just my opinion.
Is this an AI voiceover? It sounds a bit odd to me as there are some clear mispronunciations of common words.
Not A.I voice over, just illiterate. :-) Joe, the audio got a little messed up in places due to my incompetence with the editing software. :-) Joe
Mixed feelings on this. Looks cool but was pretty bad at all the stuff it needed to do. Got one at Duxford if you want to see one.
One shall not have mixed feelings, one shall love all winged machines without question.......Duxford in a few weeks when I get a gimbal to stop the "shaky hands" :-) Joe
@@AviationRepublic let me know what you think of the colour scheme
If you have mixed feelings about any aircraft you should probably get yourself into counseling
You are referring to XH897 the FAW.9 and used by the A&AEE, in Red and white paint scheme? If so, then, yes, she is an interesting looking beast, hoping to go there in September as I have a list of aircraft I need to film. :-) Joe
My word c’est un limon par excellence 😂😂😂
Well, sure, but here's the thing, considering the UK had limited resources, it was not a terrible effort. Going back to the Midland Air Museum this Friday where they have the last of the FAW5. I shall give her few pats and tell that I still love her :-) Joe
When British Aviation was Great! And leading edge. August 2024. I doubt the Royal Air Force could field 100 fighter/attack planes.
We have 100 aircraft?
The Javelin was not our finest hour.
You see, I am torn, I used to think that, but we have to consider when she was built, after the war we were poorer than church mice, so 10/10 for effort, 0/10 for exploding/sandpaper engines :- )Joe
@@AviationRepublic Good point but we are talking of a time when the RAF had literally hundreds and hundreds of airframes and thousands of personnel. They also developed several types simultaneously as insurance. The three V bombers for example. A safe procurement strategy during WWII but an unnecessary expense afterwards. Too many companies competing for slices of a dwindling pie!
The Bigger Picture.
Unfortunately the MOD were as inept at procurement back then as they are today. But it was not all down to finances. It was a problem compounded deliberately by wishy washy labour politicians. Some of whom had greater allegiance to the Kremlin than Q & C. If only our friends in MI5/6 would release the files on the socialist movement of the 1950s through to the 1980s. At least those files that Blair and Prescot did not have destroyed in 1997. It's a real Pandoras box of eye openers. Jack Jones and Michael Foot were the tip of the iceberg rather than loan wolves. Ask around, the data is still available if one knows where to look.
Alas, it's all just water under the bridge. With little hope of learning lessons from past mistakes.
A little research reveals that its radar was not that good. A very important fact. As its mission requirement requires a good functioning radar.
From the research it was a mixed bag, but mostly it was considered a dark art, no surprise considering the time.
Although undoubtedly 'modern', its general design never impressed me. It looks clumsy and totally without the sleek lines of the Hunter. More 'retro' is hard to find in an early '50s jet
She was most definitely a machine of her time. - Joe
Flatiron is actually flat iron, the thing you iron clothes with.
Not surprised "she" (? why) wasn't loved if it had a habit of ejecting the pilot without warning, the engines exploded on start up and it might tear itself apart in clouds.
There was no habit of ejecting pilots without warning, this was an ejection seat servicing error not a Javelin fault and very rare in practice.
It's a habit of mine to refer to all machines as "She", old fashioned I suppose. :-) Joe
Referring to a machine as 'She' goes back 150 years and is a term of endearment, early machines were at the very least temperamental and engineers, pilots and drivers would talk kindly whilst they fettled and fiddles to get them running.
So machines, ships, cars, Tanks, Sub's, Locomotives, Steam engines and aircraft have the preferred pronoun 'She'.
It sounds to me like the Gloucester company was a complete and utter disaster run by incompetent bosses unwilling to take criticism.
Probably still working on the class system, who knows. :- ) Joe
@@AviationRepublic the fact that they took whittles engine and stuck it into a car says it all really.
You mean "Jet 1"
@@AviationRepublic Yes the Rover jet one. With the idiots, we have in charge of this country and still have right up to this day it seems ridiculous that we're still here.
I’m half way through and you’re doing nothing to make this aircraft appear any better 😂
It wasn't from lack of trying, I really did try.
Does any one work at the Midland Air Museum... maybe keeping the aircraft clean for instance ?! What a dump.
I hear you however the museum is short of funds and volunteers, unfortunately this is the situation of several museums and sadly some aircraft have been lost. If you can see past the weathering you will see the aircraft still exists and hopefully will in the future be given the attention is deserves. You can show your passion for historical aircraft by visiting a museum and making a small donation. Thanks.
They rely heavily on volunteers to assist keeping the machines in tip top condition, but finding volunteers is challenging. honestly the place it worth a visit, even if it to chat to the lads who work there. Plus for me there is a certain charm to the place, but I suppose I am a little biased as I am a bit fond of "slightly" scruffy looking machines. :-) Joe
True, I hope to volunteer there in a few months, I have plenty of PTO to take that it is a no brainer. I don't have many skills to offer, but I can hold a bucket and sponge. :-) Joe
@@AviationRepublic Interesting video and well written and narrated, that was a lot of work. Ref your thoughts on helping care for aircraft. Take a look at Mr Hewes channel, he is into tanks however he is in contact with a collection of aircraft and as a fellow content provider may have some inside info for you. Check out " Exploring The Last Flying Handley Page Victor "
As explained above not all airframes can be cared for however if they are not scraped then there is a chance for a second life. The community needs to stay close and when there is a call to arms to rescue and airframe, do their best. One of Mr Hewes videos is of a chum who cleans the Victor, something I think you would enjoy. The following article is of this Victors last flight.
A retired RAF bomber pilot is being hailed a hero after a museum-owned Handley Page Victor, a Cold War nuclear bomber, took off accidentally during an air show in Bruntingthorpe, England in May. Video of the incident came to light this week. The Daily Mail is reporting that the bomber, which hasn't flown in 20 years, was supposed to taxi down the runway as a photo opportunity. For reasons that remain unclear, the unidentified volunteer right seater firewalled the throttles and within a few seconds the Victor was in its natural element. Bob Prothero, 70, a former squadron commander who last slipped the surly bonds in a Victor in the 1980s, was in the left seat and screamed for the engineer to cut the power but the next thing he knew he was back in the saddle again for the "most terrifying nine seconds of my life."
There was a brisk crosswind that day and on takeoff the 75-ton aircraft immediately drifted left, on course for a housing development. Prothero had to decide whether to attempt a go-around in an unmaintained aircraft or put it down. He headed for the grass at the end of the runway and brought it to a stop on the generous overrun, with occupants and aircraft apparently none the worse for wear. "Nobody could really believe what had happened," he told the Daily Mail. " There were people slapping me on the back and congratulating me on not crashing the thing and ruining the day." Britain's Civil Aviation Authority has investigated and decided against charges. [AVweb com]
All volunteers , if you don’t like it you should definitely get signed up and get in there and start cleaning.. if not 🤐
Your title missed something, “and a complete pile of crap!”. There that’s better. It was an awful design produced by a post war aviation industry that was shooting in every direction in the hopes of hitting on a winner, unfortunately the huge number of companies going for the same contract meant that the aircraft went from idea to production aircraft at frightening speed where the role of the test pilot was reduced from explaining how awful the design was and what needed to be changed, to telling the crews what not to do if they wanted to stay alive. In short, crap.
You make very valid points, however, I can't bring myself to call it crap, it would pain me to do so, despite it having numerous flaws. But I agree that test pilots in those days were treated as almost expendable. I presume you have read the book "The Quick and the Dead", Bill Waterton pretty much spells it out how the aviation and defense bureaucracy prioritised speed and cost over the lives and safety of the test pilots. :-) Joe
rubbish aircraft.
If after burners had been around they wouldn't of had so much trouble with pushing it through the Air...
The reheat they had were pretty much only good over 20,000ft. Still, not too bad for the day and considering here in the UK after the war, everything was on a shoestring budget. :-) Joe