Well done and a good progression. One thing that would help in general is to tip the tool down instead of up for the clearance angle. This puts the cutting edge on the bottom. Design the tool with a narrow band of cutting edge that sticks out 0.005" from the rest of the cutter body. . The purpose of this is to drastically reduce the cutting forces while while finishing the cutting edge. ATB, Robin
Pretty cool, but wouldn’t a rough grind followed up with surface grinder be a better setup? Quicker and essentially free if you have a grinder in the shop. I feel like this is a solution in search of a problem.
In this particular case I am inclined to agree with you. I think this method would be more useful if applied to a more complex geometry, like an involute cutter for instance. It's cool to see it work though.
@@Eluderatnight I’m one of those old guys that would use a bench grinder, but I wouldn’t be using a comparator to evaluate a bench grind, so I suggested a surface grinder.
As a tool maker. I would laugh at you if you asked me to do that for free on a surface grinder. I would go over to a undress bench grinder and then hand it to you. But it would take about 15 minutes to finish that up on a surface grinder if it was roughed out on the cnc. That way you could take 10 minutes in the cnc and not keep rewriting you program and posting it out and spending 45 minutes in the cnc. If it was for a customer time is money. Customers are not inclined to come back if they feel like you wasted your time looking at a spline cutter under a comparator.
@@importanttingwei7747 so is wire edm I have programed one for years. If you get your Epack wrong or wire tension or wire speed Or even bad wire or your resin tanks are depleted or power surge or someone didn’t Grease the ways. And that’s just Scratching the surface of them. Dude that is a lot more variables than a surface grinder. Wire EDM is a nightmare. They are used when a grinder can’t do the job or it becomes to difficult. Like on die section and punches. If you have never ran one you have no idea. they are nothing like a CNC machine
You might want to take an indicator to that machine, it looks to me on attempt 6 that there might be some backlash or gib slack in the angled cuts. You might also try changing from climb to conventional on your last spring pass, this will affect the deflection of the endmill and how it interacts with the material.
With conventional cutting the mill gets pushed INTO the contour. With climb cutting the mill gets pushed away..so I would say its still better to use climb cutting(especially with ballscrews)
For testing a proof of concept using the new cutter geometries now available, HSS is a pretty good test for such a light duty machine. You have to admit that having experience on how to approach such a problem as hard metal machining is beneficial. There will be times when you are faced with such challenges in both mill and lathe work. If your shop can afford it, EDM is always the best choice for hardmetal machining, but not always allowed for some critical aerospace parts. We all have had to cut out broken taps, burned in endmills. melted drills and even friction welded tool holders from various parts over the decades. 😉
I would use a second tool for the final finish pass...not the cheapest route but you could probably substitute a slightly worn end mill for roughing and save the good tool for finish.
@@spikeypineapple552 You're probably right on with this. I've done a fair amount of milling on hard materials, and I'd be using 100 SFM as a starting point for anything 58 to 60 ish rockwell.
Glad you posted this. great info. However, the geometry of splines should be an involute curve. Otherwise, you are joining straight sided splines with curved mating teeth. It's a can of worms to design them, but worth it for the longevity of these power transmission components that are under tremendous load.
For me it's clearly the wrong tool for that job. Wonder if you could just use a grinding tool for that. Would definitely have to think of a system for dressing and adjusting the changing tool diameter, but grinding is way better for this application.
That stock is suffering form harmonics it is not supported properly. You are also machining it with the air not optimally applied to the cutting tool if you flipped it 180 and machined from the left side of the vise and choked up alot more I dare say you'd have better results. The machine with sharp corners option works perfectly fine at higher speeds for me machining 64hrc stainless. Lighter radial cut full depth and higher feed in hsm to remove the harmonic vibrations you are having will greatly help. What was the hrc of the material?
ok a quick search suggested 68-70, i may have been referencing old data, or im just plain wrong. i think the cobalt is what makes it nasty to cut, but again cant say ive had much experience with m42.
Nice work! To the nay sayers: some folks don't have a good grinder.... but do have a small mill so why not try to get it done with what you've got? That said, +1 on the comments about going to a bigger endmill and/or maybe choking up on the tool and the part. I, too, would love to see attempt 7 with conventional milling...
Nice work! Im about to cut some more 40C Rockwell Stainless .015" shim stock for a product I make, Its not that crazy by it is a full slotting operation, I broke so many endmills dialing in the recipe at first, but that is what's so nice, once you get it dialed in it cuts super smooth. I went from one endmill per 4 sheets to 1 endmill per 10-12 sheets. major difference.
Out of interest, do you have a way of calibrating the optical comparator? Does the edge of a parallel look straight when you measure it? Great video, keep up the excellent work :)
Can’t you just make a fixture and put it on the surface grinder?? And grind tool steel or carbide vs mill it??? Or is this just how much cnc has changed machining vs skill?
why does nobody finish on multiple depths. I don't understand. Also we make axles and use double angle shank cutters from harvey and they work flawlessly. HSS cutters would dull out super quick so comping the axle spline would be a nightmare.
@@qqqqqqqq1407 the involute profile allows it to work with a range of clearances, and allows for good contact despite the difference in clocking between internal and external splines, and the splines will roll on each other instead of slide, which will mean less wear over time. Your argument is the same as saying: just cut gears with straight teeth, it will still transfer torque. It will of course, but the gears will wear out because the teeth will slide on each other instead of roll. the same thing happens with splines since splines are basically gears. if you also cut your internal "splines" as straight serrations then you have to have tight fitment, otherwise your contact surfaces wont match under load since the clearance will allow the angle between the internal spline and external spline to change. If you increase the spline count enough it doesn't matter what profile you use, however if you want the strongest and smallest diameter interface an involute spline is ideal.
As a machinist maybe try choking up on the end mill and get away from a 5/16 and go up to a half if possible. And hopefully you won’t spend 45 minutes rerunning the same passes.
Your shop is most likely using clapped out old machines with loose ways. The swarf is also high mileage wear on ways and covers. A competent tool maker should be able to grind this tool by hand much faster than cnc hard milling.
I think there is a disconnect from modern manufacturing methods and current day classroom education. Old textbooks, older teachers that aren’t in industry anymore.
Its a pity that the once useful Wednesday Widgets have been delegated to interns or similar who don't really have the knowledge or experience - I thought these were teaching videos
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️💪💪👍👍, every time I use PC I think ‘This is definitely worth the price of admission.’ .... would be great to be as endowed and rich with decades of experience and knowledge that some of the pundits are 😂😂😂, but why bother spending the time or Gifts to The God’s Of Broken Carbide when I can pay SMW a LOT less to do it for me 😂😂😂😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣😅😅..... 🤣🤣😅😅😂😂😀
Well done and a good progression. One thing that would help in general is to tip the tool down instead of up for the clearance angle. This puts the cutting edge on the bottom. Design the tool with a narrow band of cutting edge that sticks out 0.005" from the rest of the cutter body. . The purpose of this is to drastically reduce the cutting forces while while finishing the cutting edge.
ATB, Robin
Pretty cool, but wouldn’t a rough grind followed up with surface grinder be a better setup? Quicker and essentially free if you have a grinder in the shop.
I feel like this is a solution in search of a problem.
In this particular case I am inclined to agree with you. I think this method would be more useful if applied to a more complex geometry, like an involute cutter for instance. It's cool to see it work though.
The old tool makers about to retire could knock one out in 5min on a bench grinder.(the way its been done nearly 200 years)
@@Eluderatnight I’m one of those old guys that would use a bench grinder, but I wouldn’t be using a comparator to evaluate a bench grind, so I suggested a surface grinder.
As a tool maker. I would laugh at you if you asked me to do that for free on a surface grinder. I would go over to a undress bench grinder and then hand it to you. But it would take about 15 minutes to finish that up on a surface grinder if it was roughed out on the cnc. That way you could take 10 minutes in the cnc and not keep rewriting you program and posting it out and spending 45 minutes in the cnc. If it was for a customer time is money. Customers are not inclined to come back if they feel like you wasted your time looking at a spline cutter under a comparator.
@@importanttingwei7747 so is wire edm I have programed one for years. If you get your Epack wrong or wire tension or wire speed Or even bad wire or your resin tanks are depleted or power surge or someone didn’t Grease the ways. And that’s just Scratching the surface of them. Dude that is a lot more variables than a surface grinder. Wire EDM is a nightmare. They are used when a grinder can’t do the job or it becomes to difficult. Like on die section and punches. If you have never ran one you have no idea. they are nothing like a CNC machine
You might want to take an indicator to that machine, it looks to me on attempt 6 that there might be some backlash or gib slack in the angled cuts. You might also try changing from climb to conventional on your last spring pass, this will affect the deflection of the endmill and how it interacts with the material.
Hey has the thing sticking out a mile... that’s why it’s deflecting but this kid is like 20
@@jamessmith1190 Give him ten more years. Meantime he’s getting some good advice in the comments from folks that have been doing this awhile.
With conventional cutting the mill gets pushed INTO the contour. With climb cutting the mill gets pushed away..so I would say its still better to use climb cutting(especially with ballscrews)
For testing a proof of concept using the new cutter geometries now available, HSS is a pretty good test for such a light duty machine. You have to admit that having experience on how to approach such a problem as hard metal machining is beneficial. There will be times when you are faced with such challenges in both mill and lathe work. If your shop can afford it, EDM is always the best choice for hardmetal machining, but not always allowed for some critical aerospace parts. We all have had to cut out broken taps, burned in endmills. melted drills and even friction welded tool holders from various parts over the decades. 😉
I would use a second tool for the final finish pass...not the cheapest route but you could probably substitute a slightly worn end mill for roughing and save the good tool for finish.
Design the jig so that you machine two angles, a relieving angle and a finish angle reducing the tool contact. Great video.
exactly what i thought.
youre cutting edge dont have to run tru the hole height of the tool... just rought grind a bigger angle and just clean a couple mm on milling
Drop your surface speed by 50% and a single spring pass with 0.002 stl would work well imo
Do you have the exact same tool, machine, vise, material as in the Video?
@@m_m_nbg na I'm just a full time machinist lmao
@@spikeypineapple552 You're probably right on with this. I've done a fair amount of milling on hard materials, and I'd be using 100 SFM as a starting point for anything 58 to 60 ish rockwell.
Just ran some 62 Rockwell M390 Stainless with a 1/16” 4FL Endmill from lakeshore. Not a job I’d like to repeat but it’s fun to experiment!
Glad you posted this. great info.
However, the geometry of splines should be an involute curve. Otherwise, you are joining straight sided splines with curved mating teeth.
It's a can of worms to design them, but worth it for the longevity of these power transmission components that are under tremendous load.
Great job! I enjoyed the video. Why not finish the tool on a surface grinder?
For me it's clearly the wrong tool for that job. Wonder if you could just use a grinding tool for that. Would definitely have to think of a system for dressing and adjusting the changing tool diameter, but grinding is way better for this application.
Diamond Wheel + jig?
@@MrCoffeypaul doesn't even have to be diamond, there are lots of grinding materials that would work
@@CatNolara And give a proper surface finish Mr. Klaufmann.
using tormach... with a weak set up... loot at that stick out and big useless clearance, of course the results are shit.
That stock is suffering form harmonics it is not supported properly. You are also machining it with the air not optimally applied to the cutting tool if you flipped it 180 and machined from the left side of the vise and choked up alot more I dare say you'd have better results. The machine with sharp corners option works perfectly fine at higher speeds for me machining 64hrc stainless. Lighter radial cut full depth and higher feed in hsm to remove the harmonic vibrations you are having will greatly help. What was the hrc of the material?
assuming it was m42 it would have had to range 65-68, correct me if im wrong
ok a quick search suggested 68-70, i may have been referencing old data, or im just plain wrong. i think the cobalt is what makes it nasty to cut, but again cant say ive had much experience with m42.
Nice work! To the nay sayers: some folks don't have a good grinder.... but do have a small mill so why not try to get it done with what you've got? That said, +1 on the comments about going to a bigger endmill and/or maybe choking up on the tool and the part. I, too, would love to see attempt 7 with conventional milling...
That's pretty cool!
Honestly doing two facets would probably decrease tool pressure enough. To do one finishing pass. So the depth would be max 3mm.
Sounds like the mill has birds in it LOL
Nice work! Im about to cut some more 40C Rockwell Stainless .015" shim stock for a product I make, Its not that crazy by it is a full slotting operation, I broke so many endmills dialing in the recipe at first, but that is what's so nice, once you get it dialed in it cuts super smooth. I went from one endmill per 4 sheets to 1 endmill per 10-12 sheets. major difference.
Did you anneal the tool steel before cutting, and harden after?
What grade steel?
I think that spring/free passes may be your friend here.
oops didnt watch far enough to see you try that !
Never easy to machine.always brutal on the end mills
Out of interest, do you have a way of calibrating the optical comparator? Does the edge of a parallel look straight when you measure it? Great video, keep up the excellent work :)
qualical.wdfiles.com/local--files/qualical-calibration-procedures/QSCP-116_Optical%20Comparator.docx
this is why most tool bits are finish ground on a stone.
why havent you rotated the part by 90 degrees with three setups ? The rounding would be eliminated (assuming the endmill is straight)
Like a glove
IT'S A FIXTURE NOT A " JIG" !!!!!!
Nice
Not a jig
A fixture
ty
Can’t you just make a fixture and put it on the surface grinder?? And grind tool steel or carbide vs mill it??? Or is this just how much cnc has changed machining vs skill?
why does nobody finish on multiple depths. I don't understand. Also we make axles and use double angle shank cutters from harvey and they work flawlessly. HSS cutters would dull out super quick so comping the axle spline would be a nightmare.
A double angle cutter doesn't cut a true involute spline profile, what you are making is called a serration.
@@davidfarmer if you comp the CV joint to a tight fit after coating there's nothing wrong with that. We have axles in 700+ hp cars and they are fine.
@@qqqqqqqq1407 the involute profile allows it to work with a range of clearances, and allows for good contact despite the difference in clocking between internal and external splines, and the splines will roll on each other instead of slide, which will mean less wear over time.
Your argument is the same as saying: just cut gears with straight teeth, it will still transfer torque. It will of course, but the gears will wear out because the teeth will slide on each other instead of roll. the same thing happens with splines since splines are basically gears.
if you also cut your internal "splines" as straight serrations then you have to have tight fitment, otherwise your contact surfaces wont match under load since the clearance will allow the angle between the internal spline and external spline to change. If you increase the spline count enough it doesn't matter what profile you use, however if you want the strongest and smallest diameter interface an involute spline is ideal.
@@davidfarmer there is no clearance between the cv and shaft we have to hammer them on. There is no 'play' for the splines to wear over time.
@@qqqqqqqq1407 Do you hammer the axle shafts into the diff as well?
As a machinist maybe try choking up on the end mill and get away from a 5/16 and go up to a half if possible. And hopefully you won’t spend 45 minutes rerunning the same passes.
And my shop teacher says you can’t mill HSS. Says you have to grind it 🙄
only because you can mill something doesn't meant you should mill it.
Your shop is most likely using clapped out old machines with loose ways. The swarf is also high mileage wear on ways and covers. A competent tool maker should be able to grind this tool by hand much faster than cnc hard milling.
Shop teachers lie, I think its either the best perk of the job, or just the most enjoyable part.
Crusty old men. I hardmill 64hrc stainless every day just fine with mirror results In my mill.
I think there is a disconnect from modern manufacturing methods and current day classroom education. Old textbooks, older teachers that aren’t in industry anymore.
Repeat after me....FIXTURE
Metric! Nice!
Its a pity that the once useful Wednesday Widgets have been delegated to interns or similar who don't really have the knowledge or experience - I thought these were teaching videos
.
อะไรว่ะ
oh really ?. that is how americans make tools from HSS blanks ? . or its just silly demonstration of your overexictment
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️💪💪👍👍, every time I use PC I think ‘This is definitely worth the price of admission.’ .... would be great to be as endowed and rich with decades of experience and knowledge that some of the pundits are 😂😂😂, but why bother spending the time or Gifts to The God’s Of Broken Carbide when I can pay SMW a LOT less to do it for me 😂😂😂😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣😅😅..... 🤣🤣😅😅😂😂😀
First