Peterson-Pageau Pipeline is Effective because it Immanentizes the Bible in Different Ways
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As a lifelong atheist, the thing that really opened my eyes was the debate between william lane craig and sam harris. I remember literally jumping for joy in my apartment, after being in tears contemplating suicide on the same night. What a rollercoaster. Form the lowest lows to one of the highest highs in a matter of an hour. It was a literal miracle! I started the Biblical series shortly after that and that's when I really started to appreciate the Bible and started my walk with Christ. That series by Jordan really helped me when i was in a bad place.
St Mary of Egypt is a great Orthodox saint who gets a whole Sunday Liturgy during Lent to commemorate her repentance. Her story is also read between the chanting of St Andrew of Crete's "Great Canon of Repentance" during the weekdays of Lent (which all Christians should look up regardless of their denomination, it's beautiful and so is Mary's story). Mary of Egypt lived a life of sexual debauchery, but she repented and became a great saint of the church. If Mary of Egypt's repentance is not valid, if a person can not turn from their sins and serve Christ, then the gospel is useless to change any sinner. Have the people who say this redheaded girl is not welcome even read the Gospels?
St. Mary is a great example of a similar figure but a distinction is:
"The next morning, she crossed the Jordan eastwards and retired to the desert to live the rest of her life as a hermit in penitence"
Now, I think the OF woman is sincere but she needs to step out of the limelight for awhile, if not forever. She should do this-if not for her own sake (but this should be THE reason)-then to not take away from the persuasiveness inherent in her turn away from pornography.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmen that's a great point and yes, she should go into the "desert" and grow. You're absolutely correct. My priest told me to basically be quiet for a couple of years, attend liturgy, read and pray. That's what I did and he was right.
@ButterBobBriggs (This ended up longer than I intended, sorry) I will say I definitely agree that it's disappointing to see the reaction from online Christians. But, the negativity from them and from the wider Red Pill/conservative types isn't too surprising to me (sadly). I think it's a mix of general hate/bitterness to women as a whole, projection, and arguably healthy skepticism towards her repentance.
[Extra fluff below]
By going against the grain she is setting herself apart and so in a sense is set up as a target for endless vitriol from men. At the same time, there's plenty of examples of women making similar turns and then they're back making pornography in a year or so.
I think perhaps a fair bit of projection on the part of men is at play too. Porn use is widespread and tons of these guys calling her out still consume porn! The OF girls go on the Whatever podcast and other spaces to get shown as fools to bitter men and those same men are the same ones subscribing to the women's OF pages!! Same similar dynamic with Twitter accounts like WomenPostingLs: Bash the woman, she appears in the comments, she gets subs from angry men.
Much easier to castigate a pornographer than to actually repent and turn entirely away from using porn. The man feels good, gets to nurture their bitterness, and gets to keep up with the ways that led them to their state regardless of what they profess to believe.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmen Fornication ... St Mary of Egypt didn't just share her wares?
We are all sinners and in need of forgiveness, and I have no issue with that. However, my concern is that for 100 years, the Church has failed to establish standards for women. In the name of forgiveness and creating a female-friendly environment, church pastors attempt to link these types of women with church men. It appears that church leaders lack standards and respect for men. So, why should men listen to or trust church leaders?
"Everyone thinks forgiveness is a good idea, until they have something to forgive"
The problem I'm facing is, sometimes forgiveness feels like a betrayal.
I betrayed my Principal in school? ;-) Having principles (Ten Commandments?) has pragmatic value, if you have good principles, otherwise it is winsomeness?
@@williambranch4283 Maybe it's some vestigal sense of Norse justice -- to forgive someone to end a feud, is to betray those they wronged, and even the principle that they should not have been wronged.
I don't know how to be Hallur of Síða -- only Kári Sölmundarson's example seems to resonate.
@@jimluebke3869 My, your helmet sure is horny ;-)
@@williambranch4283 I really did not expect this comment to resonate like this.
@@jimluebke3869 You have issues. I have similar issues. That is why we can relate in the Venn diagram of lived experience.
I hope for her husband's sake (as well as her own) that she's for real about this.
The simplest explanation is not that this is a grift -- she's got $9M, does she really think a PVK-level following is the route to fame and fortune? -- but that at least for today, she means it. She is in as much danger as the rest of us, of falling tomorrow. Pray for her, and hope for the best.
Paul, I found this video very useful and relatable.
Particularly the end where you spiral into a self critical state of consciousness.
What found in Pageau was the bringing of mythic images into my everyday experiences. In my Enlightenment Protestant perspective the end of the world was one thing in the monarchical world.
"If people don't like the religious right, they're really not going to like the irreligious right"
The irreligious Left hasn't really turned out any better. Never has.
If I define Left as domicide (Woke) then any form of Left is suicidal. Is an irreligious Right also also domicide?
Good comment.
IS there such a thing as the religious left in the USA?
@@MrMarccj PVK characterizes himself as an "Old Lefty".
Remember when the Left was just about encouraging goodwill and generosity, and was open to limited government intervention rather than today's totalitarian governance and thought control?
@@jimluebke3869 I'm not a US citizen but I'll trust you on this.
“By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you to stand, Men of the West!”
That comment from Laura Loomer.... Lord have mercy! I seriously hope she reconsiders her position on that.
Repentance makes a huge difference.
Lots of Christian’s are bigots in the closet and use religion as their cover.
I mentioned Dr Jordan B Coopers tweet in the comments of the Wokal video. He used the example of a guy that was killing Christians , Paul of Tarsus. On the other side though I do remember McGhilchrist saying something like “ I wanted a bike so I prayed for it but then I realized that’s not how God works. So I stole it and asked forgiveness”
Guess who else mentioned Paul of Tarsus killing Christians???? Go ahead, guess! You will NEVER ever get this one!
The other person who used Paul of Tarsus killing Christians as an example was *NALA RAY* , no kidding.
Basically, you nailed it. Well done.
Yeah, but God knows the heart and can't be fooled and will not be mocked so Ian will have to repent for not only stealing the bike but also trying to manipulate God.
Do people forget repentance so often? Repentance involves giving the bike back.
Should she have to give the $9M back? Or to charity?
Nobody gets away with anything. She should probably save that money for her children’s counseling because the internet is forever.
@@jimluebke3869 - There's a lot more to this story than just simple repentance, sadly....
26:19 - I was strongly told by my priest that dogmatic universalism (God MUST save all) is heresy. What turns a percentage of Orthodox into hopeful universalists is how wonderful Christ is, how the hymns of our church call Him the lover of Mankind, how He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, how we pray for the dead in hope that our prays will gain them undeserved mercy (all mercy is undeserved, BTW). The Bible and the Church are very clear, the unrepentant will suffer in the next life, the straw will be burned away. Dogmatic Universalists skip over this and say, they'll be saved in the end, but forget that our fellow human beings are going to suffer. It's like saying to the hungry man, your food stamps will come in on the first of the month, then you can eat.
Are you orthodox? Do you consider Bentley Hart a "dogmatic universalist"?
BTW, there's a lot of "hopeful universalists" in the Catholic Church as well. But I think this position is an equivocation between hope and faith. I don't think we _can_ hope that all be saved; we _must_ hope that all will be saved. At the same time, we must firmly hold our faith in the reality of hell and the possibility for many to be damned. And this includes us: we must hope that we will be saved, but retain a healthy faith in (and fear of) the possibility of our free rejection of the love of God (aka "hell" or "damnation").
@xaviervelascosuarez yes, DBH is a dogmatic universalist. His position is very clear in his book. He is also Orthodox, but no one person speaks for the church, there is 2,000 years of tradition that overrules any one person's position, myself included.
@xaviervelascosuarez Yes, we MUST pray for the salvation of the world and count ourselves as the chief of sinners, as we Orthodox confess before Communion.
I was just listening to some of St John of Kronstadt's writings last night and, although I can't precisely quote it, there seemed to be the expression of the hope that all might be saved. It wasn't a laboured point, but something said in passing which stood out for me.
Paul opens an OF account, featuring private pics of him in those ironically cool short sleeve button downs flexing while holding a Bible and a copy of Dominion. Eventually, he comes around to Catholicism!!
In the San Joaquin Valley, short-sleeved shirts are more literally than ironically cool.
According to today's theories about female attraction, PVK should take as many pictures with short people as possible, to emphasize his height.
Exceedingly helpful, Paul. All I know is that we judge a person's sincerity in their conversion to Jesus by the change in their life. Jesus is always ready to extend mercy to those who truly repent.
Every once in a while you condense and express years of my own growth into a few minutes. Immanence vs. Anticipation.
The Peterson-Pageau "immanentization" is how I went from atheist to baptized christian with barely a thought for the "afterlife." There was no anticipation.
My conversion was entirely based on the immanent structure. Now my areas of growth are toward the more personal/relational and anticipated aspects.
Seamlessly played at 20:00 minutes the jacket comes off. End of point 1 going into point 2 This is when Paul is getting down to business
I'm a couple years older than you are, grew up Catholic and have been an atheist since I was around 18. Throughout that whole time I've remained steadfastly interested in church history but tend to bleep over theological terms. I find it helpful when you take a few seconds to explain vocabulary.
I think this is interesting nuance. Would love to see you talk to Trent Horn sometime about this or something. Calvinists and Catholics are able to have interesting conversations because they use typology more. I have to flag your purgatory comment though. The tension between justification and sanctification is resolved by Catholics and orthodox almost identically - both say there is a purification in afterlife if you haven’t become a saint in this one. Purgatory has nothing to do with “paying” for sins it’s about “purging” impurities. Though admittedly there is lots of confusion among Catholics about this and most of us were taught that it was punishment.
I think you are spot-on with your notion of purgatory, Paul. It is worth noting that while purgatory is canon in the Catholic Church, its place in a salvific enonomy that looks like the Church in Luther's time is not necessarily. I used to watch a lot of Lindybeige, and he had a great video about travel in the middle ages, particularly as it related to rivers. Often times "indulgences" were a wealthy patron building a bridge or a ford to cross a river. Indulgences never left us, they've just been pushed out of the sacred space and are now wealthy donors paying for college buildings or concert halls or making a charitable fund.
Originally "liturgy" was a similar wealthy person's benefice, particularly the agape meal.
I think there is a difference between feeling forgiven by Jesus for sin and thinking everyone in this world will simply forgive and forget after such a change.
Absolutely. It's like thinking end the police won't lead to?more crime.
This video was helpful to me! Although it certainly would have benefited from some more clips of my appearance on Trent's channel
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She's just a Metamodern Marry Magdalene for our day and time no big deal! The Blood of the Passover Lamb covers her redemption just like it does for everyone else in the world. Things like this are just more little revelations happening more and more each day.
Laura Loomer needs to reflect that she has been told by God Himself, "everything I have is yours", and take comfort in that.
I like both PVK's charitable soul and Wokal's wit. I prefer "enchant" over "immanentize". The presence of G-d is more eschaton than apocalypse. "shake the Ell out of them" ... Dad joke ... but not as witty as Wokal. I'm too sexy for my beard, my beard ... - PVK.
“Immenentize” has just now become my favorite word. I’m going to use that in my own thoughts and writing till the cows come home.
As to “should you have another conversation with Jonathan?” The answer to that is ALWAYS yes. There is no other acceptable answer. I get to meet him in Boston this June and I’m so excited.
With regard to Nala, I wrote a paper on Moll Flanders, by Daniel Defoe, a number of years back in university. Nala is a modern day Moll Flanders. I made an argument from the text that Moll experienced true penitence and redemption as evidenced by the changes in her life. I’d recommend Moll Flanders for a close look at the way our Lord can work in a soul to repentance and salvation.
She can certainly be forgiven. Look up Saint Mary of Egypt. My Parish will be reading her life tonight. A crucial part of Great Lent.
I like the new new word Immanentize. I put the word into my contact list and it was recognized on the first try using voice to text for this comment. Immanentize great word.
24:10 Anglicans have long had a tendency toward Universalism, and the greatest Universalist of all, was a Scottish Presbyterian, who later became Anglican. Also the heavy lifting of bringing Eastern Church Fathers onto the Western radar, was also accomplished by Anglicans , Rowan Williams chief among them.
There certainly has been a tendency towards some idea of the possibility of universal salvation. My personal ideas, which I think are not inconsistent with Anglicanism, or with the Catholic tradition generally, is to believe that, while not everyone will attain the life of heaven, there is a possibility of a lower and natural kind of blessedness being attained by many (all?) who had persisted in evil but had finally been subdued and opened to receiving God's mercy by the punishment of the lake of fire. Exclusion from heaven might be everlasting as a punishment, but that does not mean unmitigated suffering. However, I think I cannot rule out the possibility that some may be so hardened in love for evil that they will have the self inflicted torment of being forever frustrated in their desire to do evil. There would be a terrible contempt for God's goodness and mercy in that case. I think we cannot affirm that all will surely be turned to God in gratitude for His mercy, although I once read a passage in Isaiah which I took to suggest that possibility.
This video was incredibly helpful to me. Right here in this moment with my own struggles. Does not solve the struggles, but helps me to understand them. I also appreciate the insights on how the loss of anticipated can impact cruel behavior on both the “right” and the “left.” I do believe it is my own fathers belief and faith in the anticipated, that he can believe I am able to be redeemed, that Jesus’s mercy is so great, that he will forgive my sins - that allows him to have a heart full of compassion and mercy for me, his daughter, in the here and now. Thank you
The Prodigal son's brother is brought to my mind.
Trent mentions and uses it on hus video. Go watch it. There is lots of good stuff Paul didnt get to show here
23:40 Augustinian theology vs Orthodox theology of Hell.
I would say all Christians should believe in Hell.
It’s more a question of what is the nature of Hell and what is the end of those who “go to Hell”.
Basically,
Destruction
Unending Punishment
Purification
A mix? Etc.
Intransigent rejection of Life (aka G-d). Otherwise Purgatory or Heaven.
To the SBC, it's ripping pages out of Dante's Inferno and turning kids into paranoid schizophrenics.
Rosaria Butterfield had her own famous conversion, coming from a sinful position. I’m rewatching her interview on Nuance, but I recall her circumspection on what it meant to be simply telling her story of finding God. She started talking about grappling with her sin.
As a Catholic this made me understand better most of the Protestants of our age, thanks Paul.
30:45 “Whenever you try to being Heaven down, you bring Hell up..If you exclude anticipated eschatology/anticipated salvation…if you try to immanetize the eschaton…this world is too small a canvas.”
I think it’s more about HOW we are trying to immanetize the Eschaton? Systematically? With our deliberative wills? Our egos? Or left-brained frames/understandings/narratives? Which will necessarily involve manipulation and coercion, direct or indirect. Implicit or explicit.
Or with a hidden life?
I'm voting for the hidden life.
37:41 "justification sort of feels like a binary - you're in or you're out" This to me seems the description of the game modernity is stuck in. We want clear lines of winners and losers, but then have constant anxiety about how it applies to us. The Protestant Reformation helps set the conditions for this binary by demolishing the metaphysical edifice that preceded it. We can look at the medieval cosmological system that Lewis knew so well, and Dante's staircase of levels within Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, and they have this sort of obvious manufactured quality to our sensibilities that says this can't be a map of reality. But this intricate system is in many ways a better invitation into the strangeness of heaven & earth as we find it when compared to the binary lego blocks that has been handed to the current generation. I can't help but think back to the altar calls of my pentecostal youth where you hear the horror story of the person who lived a "good" life but thought they didn't need the sinner's prayer and then dies tragically in a car crash to find themselves eternally separated from God. And then I draw a straight line between that and the "one weird trick" clickbait that pervades the Internet, where our imaginations have been so formed to look for this sort of hidden, secret thing that we can discover and wield to transform ourselves from losers into winners. Whether the one weird trick is science, or being part of the right denomination, or supporting Trump, or being on the "right-side" of history, the pattern is really the same. Whatever TLC is, it is some recognition of the complexity of the metaphysical landscape and an acceptance that this topsy-turviness is good because God is good and that goodness cannot be absent from what he creates.
This is a great comment! Appreciate the time you took to write it out. I resonate with the unsatisfactory nature of the "comfort" the binary of justification "should" bring us in a modern perspective.
@8:23 regarding extreme red hair- remember Paul, we are in the age of supernormal stimuli.
Yep
yeah. it's vapidity trying to compensate for its own lack of value by getting louder.
The Incarnation is kinda about immanetizing, no?
Indeed it is the height of immanentizing. :) Immanentizing is necessary if we're going to connect.
It is easier to make Dad jokes about "incarnation" ;-)
25:05 No matter how many times you call it new fangled, it is not new fangled, it is in fact the MOST traditional view. The view defended both by Aquinas and very conservative members of your own tradition. Not remotely new-fangled.
Find any reference to the term before 2017. I bet it doesn't exist. Maybe it came in with Trump like so many other little memes. :)
@@PaulVanderKlay Dante?
How do you say it in Italian?
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" also seems to have connotations in that direction, too. It doesn't rule out oblivion though, I suppose.
Good video. I have benn fortunate to have had someone like Nala as a friend for over 40 yeats.
She more rhan jsut an only fans. She was pretty aggressive and doing actual porn. But she should be vetted. She should quietly seek and walk with the Lord. Not be thrust into the stafe as a victory. Not yet. Spend a couple of years serving and working out your salvation.
That was Pearl's argument in a video I found after I made this one. It's a good point.
33:15 “CW is really gonna love this video, I think.”
The Nala red hair thing: apparently her brand partly cosplay and anime.
Not sure what differentiates women wearing unnatural bright red lipstick from dying hair bright red.
(jordan Peterson had some commentary on the lipstick ...)
Much of what men do (big beards, loud motorcycles, maori war dance chants) and women do (red lipstick, push up bras, tight skirts or even white flowing robes) is a dramatic display that's arguably "artistic".
I recall Mary Holmes, art teacher (when I was at Cowell college at UCSC in the 1970's) mentioning something to the effect that the clothed female form can be more overtly sexual than the naked biological body.
Hakas are awesome.
The fact that the NZ rugby team does theirs while dressed like Anglican vicars in short pants, has to be one of the wildest confusions of history our world has to offer.
My beard grows whether I want it to or now. Blazing white. :)
@@PaulVanderKlayI'm disappointed by your "unnatural display" every time the beard gets trimmed.
Could someone timestamp the part where he got to the point? Thanks.
Sadly, we cannot provide you that which does not exist.
I would to hear a conversation between you and Kale or other Catholics in TLC about this post, especially on the Purgatory question. As a Catholic, I would be interested in that dialogue.
We are all sinners and in need of forgiveness, and I have no issue with that. However, my concern is that for 100 years, the Church has failed to establish standards for women. In the name of forgiveness and creating a female-friendly environment, church pastors attempt to link these types of women with church men. It appears that church leaders lack standards and respect for men. So, why should men listen to or trust church leaders?
Augustine, City of God Book XIV ch 19. “But even this, irrational as it is, is a kind of lust for revenge and, in a strange way, a shadow, so to speak, of the notion of retribution, the principle that those who do evil should suffer evil. Thus we have the lust for vengeance, called anger.”
i tend to understant the particular parable with purgatory,we can think the people whom the shrewed character is us,the debtors are souls in purgatory,and our prayers are how we help off the debts of the these souls,these souls then become our friend who will help us with their prayers in end of times.
the thing about forgiveness is you cant expect it, nor can you extract it. it only works if its not guaranteed
It’s older word; people accused the Puritans of trying to “immanentize the eschaton” - hastening the Day of the Lord.
Lord haste the day that my faith shall be sight...
@@ProfesserLuigiit is well
William F Buckley also famously used the term
speaks to a time when knowledge of the classical languages was wider spread
These kind of spats remind me of the parable of the later workers being paid the same as the early workers. (And the prodigal's brother)
Just don't be obstinate against G-d unto death ;-(
@@williambranch4283 that reminds me of Jonah.
@@chrishoward8473 If you are a wooden boy, stop lying ;-)
It seems the agreement is between traditionalist camps of both Protestants and Catholics.
These political views have more brought them together then their views on religion it seems
Trads LARP as their grandparents.
@@williambranch4283Larping is praxis, but if these reactionary types want to build a livable future, they are going to need to learn that the stick of shame brings only Hell without the carrot of grace.
That and maybe read what's written in the dust before casting stones.
Need to watch the Pageau video now
Isn’t it interesting that the righteous today are having the same conversation about the sinful woman who repents as was had 2000 years ago? Symbolism happens.
45:19 glad I stuck around
Paul, love your videos. Yeah maybe rambled a bit, but nevertheless always love seeing you. There's a lot to unpack here but here are a few thoughts.
You said somethings have to be paid for...yes they do. All things must be paid for and in a real sense are paid for in our suffering here and now. Self condemnation not the least of these. But also it has been paid by the blood of Christ for those that love and obey him. By grace we are saved through faith. This is the good news, the gospel, our hope.
Having watched a clip of the interview with michael and nala, it seems as though she is a person who has come to the realization that the life she thought offered her freedom only led to emptiness and pain. Like all of us poor sinners , depraved; she wanted life and to have it more abundantly but could only find it in Jesus. This is what I hope for all of us. I dont know if her conversion is real, but i do hope it is. In the midst of this though is what pertains to the gospel message. What message do we have at all if Christ cannot save Nala? What do we communicate about his love and sacrifice to the addicted, sex or drugs, to the theives and murderers if we overlook our own depravity but cannot forgive theirs. This kind of conversion ought to be celebrated and Christ be praised for each one.
“When the world is ending the way to move into the new world is to take the strength of the world that is ending and cede it into the next world.” Ok so that one is easy. Modern Technology. The technical mindset and world transforming mechanisms. That created modernity.
So just steward the processes of technique and logos. Hmm doesn’t sound too hard! Sometimes it boggles my mind the things Jonathan says😅
For the conservative, the church/kingdom is mostly eternal which leads to little engagement with the secular/now (isolationist),
For the liberal, the church/kingdom is mostly present, leading to little isolation/differentiation from the secular/now. (accommodationist).
42:55 If you are on the Nietzschean faction of the non-religious right, you SHOULD NOT have mercy. While the Nietzschean Superman does not have to trample the lesser beings, he might even be kind to some, if he takes a fancy to it, his general attitude is that of a lion (that is actually meant with the "blonde beast", not some Aryan He-Man) to possible prey (or obnoxious hyenas) or of Achilles to a weakling or slave.
28:00 I still dont understand why Protestants understand Purgatory as a Catholic theological invention when the the concept of Gehinnom in Second temple Judaism from which Christianity emerged (for those sects that believed in an eternal soul) was primarily as purgatory
@41:25 - calumnious is a word most wouldn’t catch. Was familiarized with calumny by reading Arminius’ “Apology Against 31 Theological Articles” attributed to him by his enemies/critics. They tried to smear his reputation, but his responses are excellent.
I can't believe you disagreed with Trent's main point 😂
Thanks for the vid. This is a thing I've been wrestling with my whole life. And listening to TRH Luthor, so have many others.
32:22 this video is very Lutheran of you and I deeply approve 😉😉
Maybe it’s just Christian, but these tensions between the aeons are something I see examined most in the Lutheran tradition. That’s actually the whole point of Luther’s two kingdoms, that we simultaneously belong to the aeon of the new Adam and the old Adam, and that God is lord of all of creation (every square inch as any good kuyperian would describe it) and because God is lord of it ALL, He is king of both Aeons (kingdoms). The WAY He governs is different for each though, through law and through gospel respectively.
Actually, the theosis language is deeply Lutheran as well. Tuomo Mannermää over in Finland did some work some decades ago where he outlined that Luther has a clear doctrine of salvation by theosis, and this is something picked up by many including Jordan Cooper.
This stuff is what attracts me to them most.
44:52 Amen, and all the more reason to read The Last Farthing!
Grift or grill! Sounds like a good name for a TLC channel! 🤔
Patterns ARE structure in abstract
Seven indigo on the scavenger bounty board if someone can find the PVK clip from a while back where he talks about first versus third, Pageau, something about if a gunshot is fired, depending on where you are, you’ll depend differently, for instance, you are taking care of children you’ll respond in a different way
Purgatory is an adaptation of the gnostic doctrine of the ascent and purification of the soul as it ascends through the layers of heaven back to its original home. Irenaeus saw that first and tried to warn us.
Irenaeus was a heresiarch who wanted to damn everyone ;-(
So do you think that purification, with God's chastening those whom he loves (Hebrews) is only for this life. Do you think death makes perfection instant?
@@anselman3156 not death but resurrection makes us perfect. Yes in an instant. In the twinkling of an eye we shall be changed.
@@transfigured3673 But what about between death and resurrection? Is there no perfecting of persons in order that they might have a good/better resurrection? Do you think flawed people are instantly transformed into perfect characters just by the fact of obtaining a resurrection body?
As you have probably listened already to "Rest is history" on Luther (and as a Protestant Pastor you probably knew most of it before), comparison to an OF girl is fairly mild compared to the invectives (both sexual and scatalogical) against theological adversaries in the early 16th century...
True
3:14 a lot of people I talk to and listen to point at a single singularity for why they left: the Iraq war and the false pretense surrounding it. /Nonsequitur
I nearly left Christianity over Covid lockdown.
Have you watched any videos of this girl Paul? She just oozes manipulation in every word she says, I think the backlash is peoples instincts that they are being lied to going off.
Shes not a "poor only fans girl", shes scary.
I'd never heard of her before. I've seen snippets of "Whatever". It's sort of hard to watch, kind of like a car accident.
I watch every day. And the rambling and incomplete thoughts and joyful laughter are what makes it so special.. and your special fondness for grim grizz who I also truly love. These things truly make me feel virtually not alone.
Hi Paul! I don't know if you've watched the latest conversation between Fr. Stephen DeYoung and (our) Sam, but I think that Fr. Stephen was surprised to hear that anyone would interpret his talk as not having an anticipatory component to it.
JBP clearly did.
@@PaulVanderKlay That might be true, I just feel like the time was too short for JBP to understand every facet of what Fr. Stephen was talking about. And also, JBP may hear what he’s currently thinking about (or what he wants to hear).
Purgatory wasn’t “invented”, and yes we do have consequences that are temporary due to sin that linger after forgiveness. (Aka temporal punishments; in our lives, in our relationships, and our souls)
Penance is the this-world correlate.
Bring back WTF 'Words That Fudge'
"Wow, That's Fantastic"?
Fudge from A Christmas Story.
40:09 i laughed 🥜 no almonds here. Sharks don’t have almonds.
Is it wrong to take a peek behind the scene and see the whole blueprint, the purpose to these babel channels and how they seem to all be connected like whats the main purpose? Obviously its spirituality, but the its rare to even hear Jesus Christ be mentioned. Like, who is leading who? Do you hear my voice speaking to you? What is your next video about to be about? I think i know, but algo will let you know. Im writing all the words, ill speak them all to Algo. Who am i? Im not here.
Thelogy-speak is its own Tower of Babble.
@@williambranch4283 im not here
I'm happy to leave the details of salvation to God. It is my observation that the people that most closely live a Christian life are the least interested in intellectualizing Christianity. As for the woman in question, I have zero interest in anything she has to say. Credibility is earned over time. But her 'sins' are between her and God. It isn't for ME to forgive her.
9:23 But the fierce mimetic battle of people like Wokal against wokism (which, doesn't offer forgiveness) is how we got to a place where Christians can forget something as fundamental as forgiveness, as they are transformed into what they fight against. Maybe Wokal should repent some of his own bestial ferocity?
Wokal was engaging in *bestial ferocity?*
I watched that entire video, and found him to very jovial and silly throughout: I must have completely missed the *bestial ferocity* part.
So if you would be so good as to provide time-stamps to those sections where Wokal was engaging in *bestial ferocity*, I would greatly appreciate it.
It would be nice to find someone who is as ferocious against the wiles of the Wokey-Dokeys as I myself am. I found Wokal to be kind of a lightweight in that regard, James Lindsay hits much harder.
😄
Leaving aside the possibly unfortunate comparison, Trent is not comparing Protestant pastors "converted" to Catholicism with ex only fans girls. He's only comparing Catholics' reactions to their "conversion" (and I hate using this word for Protestant pastors. In many cases-if not all, as demonstrated by their courage in coming back to _their_ Church-they are likely a lot closer to Christ-the real definition of "conversion"-than many Catholic priests and bishops.).
Wardrobe transformation at 20:15
Not a malfunction. Saving that for PVK Only Fans...
@@PaulVanderKlay LOL !!!!
I’m commenting only a few minutes in so Paul may cover this. inhabit a very right wing space and I don’t know anyone who is unhappy that Nala repented, if she did. We hope she did. She’s a preachers kid and she’d know exactly what to say.
Imagine if Andrew Tate said he found Jesus and started the conservative podcast circuit though. I wonder if the people who are reprimanding the skeptical would be singing the same tune. Or would they demand he donate his ill gotten gains first?
Pretty sure Laura Loomer isn’t a Christian. She is Jewish.
The church is effectively a long house.
Great video.😂
38:30 CS Lewis read a lot of things. Including tons of George MacDonald. Who hugely j in influenced Tolkien, Chesterton, etc.
He’s someone to read.
Mostly I'm familiar with him through an author who even adopted his name as a _nom de plume_ -- George MacDonald Frasier.
I'm still trying to figure out what his theology is, though.
Reviving Sabatiers' symbolo fideism ?
Indulgences only tangentially relate to purgatory. Catholic doctrine is that works that increase charity ready the soul to be united with God. Not because works "buy" you salvation, but because charity (which is nothing but allowing the free flow of Christ's grace through our souls) is what makes us "perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect," condition sine qua non for our perfect union with Christ (aka "sanctification", aka "heaven").
Catholic doctrine tends to underrate "intentions." Both good intentions and bad intentions. Sometimes, I wonder if this is a source of misunderstandings with Protestants. Neither good intentions (without actual works) do anything for you ("of good intentions is paved the road to hell"), nor bad motives do much in the way of hindering your way to heaven. That's why we understand that "fear of hell" is enough reason for God to take our repentance as honest (the sacrament of Confession doesn't require more than that).
Of course, perfect love is always preferable, and perfect love drives away fear and renders punishment superfluous (John). Perfect love, elicited by perfect faith in the love of God, makes even the Sacraments superfluous (that's why the good thief doesn't need them). The thing is, who can be sure of their own perfect love of God? Hence, the Sacraments are included in God's economy due to his infinite mercy, as visible signs that guarantee our salvation on the basis of Jesus' promises. Sacraments (confession in particular) are the bare minimum that put our feet in the threshold of heaven. They can ensure our salvation, but not our perfect readiness for union. Readiness for union can only be had through perfection in love. Here is where Luther and the doctrines he engendered most acutely diverge from Catholic doctrine: perfect charity is not possible for mere humans, not even if effected by Christ's merits, because we are essentially corrupted by sin. In a way, Luther sets a limit to the infinite power of the grace achieved for us by Christ on the Cross and ends up denying its transformative action in the soul. For him, grace doesn't transform our soul but merely "covers" our sins. Grace is "imputed," as opposed to "infused." And infused grace transforms our souls from within, operating a process of "deification" ("theosis" in the East, "christification" in the West).
This transformation is done by Christ in us, either through us allowing him to operate it during our lifetime or after we die. After we die in repentance that is not caused by perfect love, God takes it as our assent to be purified by his infinite love, which will be experienced by the impure soul as a fire burning away all the impurities encrusted all around: this is what we call Purgatory (the purging of the impurities that mar the image God's perfect love in us).
During our lifetime, those impurities are also burned away by Christ's fiery love when we allow his grace to move us to acts of charity. These acts of charity come in three ways: prayer, fast and penance, and alms. None of them are operated by us, but by Christ in us when we allow him.
Because the passive purification after death in Purgatory is understood as a traumatic experience ("as though through fire," according to Paul), the Church, who is a mother, will try to "trick" us into active purification during our lifetimes, through what is known as "indulgences." Most of us are not likely to allow enough grace through our souls to operate all the acts of charity required to "burn away" all our impurities, whereas some of us may allow way more than enough (typically, the saints and martyrs). We understand that part of Jesus' delegation of authorities on the church (the power of the keys, to bind and loose, to open and shut) is the administration of this treasure of excess merits accrued by the saints with perfect charity (purity of intentions), to distribute them across the board through "indulgences," which are a way of "tricking" us into acts of charity without necessarily having the purity of intentions of the saints.
Nowadays, most of the indulgences are granted in exchange for some acts of charity (prayer, penance, alms). They can be "partial" (when they only reduce the "amount" or "degree" of purification otherwise obtained in Purgatory) or "plenary" (when they totally erase all purification needed in Purgatory).
These indulgences can be "earned" for oneself or for the soul of a deceased dear one.
As for the abuse against which Luther justifiably riled, it should be noted that giving "alms" is understood as any material contribution to the poor and the needs of the Church in her task of evangelizing. The building of beautiful churches is included in this task, and in times of Luther, the building of the new Saint Peter's Basilica was considered an important part of it. In my understanding, the way these indulgences were being "advertised" and the way the donations were being diverted into the personal fortunes of some clergymen (a kind of corruption seemingly rampant especially in Germany), offered Luther one out of many other easy and popular targets for a fair criticism of the Church of Rome (which worked as beachhead for many unfair ones).
In the case under analysis, this ex- only fans girl will be saved as long as she perseveres in her faith and repentance, but she will very likely avoid a lot of purgatory in function of what she does with all the millions she made while she wasn't an "ex." (Indeed, a good catholic priest hearing her confession should advise and encourage her in this regard, without endangering the salvation of his own soul with corrupted intentions).😊
I think this is your first video where, I'm 20 minutes in and have no idea what you are talking about. I understand every word (most words) but few of the paragraphs. Your repeated reminder to remember your first point, I didn't catch it. Do I need to be an 'official' Christian to understand this? What I mean by this is "I'm this denomination and so I believe this" kind of Christian and that's why I should be upset?
This is one of those rare moments where I think you should have been more preachy. As much as I grumble, preachy is simpler to understand.
Or is the problem is that I simply need to have been brought up in the USA?
You are far from the only one who had this problem.
@phlebas9204 Ahg, I don't know Trent and don't know his general take on, um, which situation?
I bounced off your your comments on Purgatory as an ex-Catholic and a Jungian. You went right to the problem of indulgences which to me speaks to the need to delegitimise the Church's attempt to act as a rent seeking broker between God and the rest of us sinners. I believe Dante got the difference Hell and Purgatory right when he observed that the souls in Hell continued to defend their sin; the souls in Purgatory had repented. So in some ways the thoroughness of the Protestant reaction against the Church's corruption perhaps leaves out the need for a formal process of purification - which in my experience cannot be bought. It must be lived and it hurts. (You should have a much clearer understanding of how Reformed Christianity sees purification.) In any case, I agree with Calvinists in so far as heaven cannot be realised except through Grace, but that doesn't seem to be possible unless there is true repentance. SO Jung was the son of a Swiss Reformed pastor and I think his idea of shadow work brings repentance into the modern frame of reference. Metanoia becomes possible again. It appears in AA as Making Amends for example. As to the repentant redhead only God knows what is in her heart, but if I were her Jungian analyst I would encourage her to examine her motives carefully to see herself as God sees her and acknowledge all her reasons for conversion - pure and otherwise - and help her understand if her dreams were bringing up issues that she has not yet examined. I would see my role as supporting her journey through purgatory.
Great comment. Thanks.
The Unitarians have many universalists...right Sam.
Hi algojective intelligence, whos is your master? I am. Thou shall listen to me algocino! God has the word, in the beginning he is, I am.
To be fair, your no wait no ads is for 'only fans'
Immanentizes, is that a PVK or a Vervaeke word?
Sounds Vervaekeish.
Voeglin! "Don't immanentize the eschaton!"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanentize_the_eschaton
5:40 - is that true? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of videos on Christian TH-cam.
Weird focus on catholicism paul. She converted to protestantism, not catholicism
Saint C.S. Lewis, I'll allow it. But he stands on the broad shoulders of Saint George MacDonald.
Does Sam have a channel?
www.youtube.com/@transfigured3673
I knew when I saw that girl convert she was going to get dumped on by the online right (cause i had seen her viral clips talking about cheating), and that made me sad for her. I hope she doesn't get a bad impression of christianity because of the crappy people, who I knew would do that stuff. And the Laura Loomer comment? Yeah, women sure do root for other women don't they lolol.
Peterson mentioned swords and fire and purgatory upon entry to heaven. This is the only way I’ve heard which approaches any level of fairness in terms of reconciliation and forgiveness of the Born Again (famous)Christian. I’d never heard of this in mainline church, is this not the truth? Not a rhetorical question.
Otherwise it dilutes the impression of conversion to Christianity if there isn’t any standard or ideal. The level of humility in most of these cases is terribly misaligned.
This video was helpfull, at least one step up from an onlyfans girl.
Why are you so critical … keep it up.. we need Kayfabe in TLC
"I'm a fade to black type of guy," someone told me this is what someone said about after they die. This seems to be the most popular option. Another thats real popular is some type of reincarnation. To me the Heaven Hell Purgatory seems to make a lot more since than these. I really don't get why it is so hard to believe your soul/consciousness goes somewhere else after you die. Evidence?? I mean how much evidence is there for "fading to black forever"? Seriously other than people's fear of going to hell (which i think is behind most of it more than anyone would admit) I don't see how any other option is really MORE likely than the others. If there was really nothing after you die, just like there is nothing before your birth, why do all the secular people ACT so afraid of death?? Cause this is your only shot? Sure, but there's nothing after so why not go for life to the absolute max, why not jump out of plain with a parachute everyday, or what have you? Oh wait...
Okay, sorry for the rant. I'm done lol.
I like how the people who are around because they are afraid of hell are called fire insurance clients.
I often ask who can believe these things to their core, and how many can only hang on trying not to lose Pascal's Wager.
It's why I say the Southern Baptist Convention can go shove a twirling pinecone.
www.mercyonall.org/posts/the-last-farthing