What's inside Makita 18v LXT BL1830B OEM and clone battery packs?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- A little different to my usual (microcontroller) videos - I didn't find much information online so thought I'd add some.
Want me to do more (or less!) of this kind of video? Let me know!
Check out espruino.com and / espruino
AvE some videos on official Makita packs. For instance this old BL1830 style battery has a board that looks suspiciously similar to the clone packs I have: • Video - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![How to repair makita battery for $12 [easy fix with using repair kit -new pcb and housing]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tzub7RvqteE/mqdefault.jpg)
The makita batteries with the LEDs are actually quite sophisticated. They keep records of overvoltage, undervoltage and overtemperature events as well as cycles. And they also have a theft protection feature that can be activated with a rather expensive makita programming adapter where they turn off completely after a certain amount of time and only the right password through the programming adapter brings them back. They also actively communicate with the charger to optimize the charging speed. And after 4 (?) consecutive failed charging attempts they lock out completely.
I wonder what other secrets these batteries hold.
Do you know if the battery circuitry has under voltage protection? I've soldered together an adapter with a chip that outputs usb-c PD up to 100w. It accepts 12-28v and I'm worried going all the way to 12v would damage the cells.
My googling online has given loads of contradicting information. Some claim the battery has that protection, others say the star rated tools do it themselves. If it doesn't then I was looking to implement the circuitry myself by I'm really confused from my searching.
@@beardedchimp it does not. the undervoltage protection is handled by the tool. power tools can draw hundreds of watts from the battery which makes the circuitry required a bit costly. instead, the tool takes care of that because it already has the necessary power switching circuitry built in. some higher power tools even make use of the yellow connector to actively communicate with the battery and monitor temperature.
no wonder they are so expensive!
@drkastenbrot some LXT packs (mainly 5Ah and 6Ah) do have high powered mosfets that can cut power independently of the tool. They use a fairly high end mosfet with just 0.45mOhm resistance. There's a video on my channel and a reddit post about it.
@@toolscientist yeah, from 2019 on it seems to be standard on 5ah and 6ah but im not sure about the smaller packs. it would make sense that they have it too now.
Old video but anyway. Yesterday I opened a 10 year old original BL1830, without the indicator. The BMS is the same type as your original one but slightly smaller and it also had balance wires to all cell pairs. The cells were Samsung INR18650-15Q SDI 096.
Your BL1830B has the new board with an ID chip under that glob of glue above the yellow connector. It also has the balancing - Neg (0v) is the Black power wire, then (3.6v) purple, (7.2v) yellow, (10.8v) white, (14.4v) blue, and the Red positive (18.0v) power wire.
The older packs only have a single line to the 1st cell above Neg to shut it off when that cell is under minimum (3.2v) counting on the others to have the same Ah capacity.
voltmeter
Great video bud. Do you have a pin out for the yellow plug? I'm Modding a double charger to charge de Walt on the other side but the charger isn't seeing the pack connected when it's on my new posts, I've removed the yellow plug and repositioned posi and neg
Great content, thank you for that video! I think the 2 parallel parts on the PCB of the original battery next to the terminal are actually shunt resistors for current sensing. Do you have high res pictures of the PCB? I would be interested to see them!
BTW: Do you have any information on how the communication between charger and battery as well as tool and battery is done? Do they use a "standard" SMBus compatible protocol with the charger or is it completely custom? I am wondering if I can read data like cycle count from my batteries.
Thanks! I'm afraid I don't have anything high-res, it's literally just what's in the video (1080p). Shunt resistors make WAY more sense - thanks! I'm afraid I have no idea on the protocol though - I haven't had any need to look into it too deeply so far, even the cheapest batteries haven't died yet :)
Any ideas if its possible to fool the newer tools with a bricked pcb battery or only way is to buy new pcb's?
I have bunch of old restored makita batteries, but the pcb's are bricked and some tools won't work with them.
Well, I found this video because I am about to buy a new battery. Now that I have watched this I will spend a bit more to get a 'safe' ( er ) battery and buy Makita
Thanks for the video and your time in doing this.
Whenever Espruino makes an assumption in this video, it seems he favors Makita every time or tends to put it in the most favorable light possible...so I tend to think he's being a bit too biased here.
Regarding your comment and safety...
Please note there is nothing that actually proves the Makita battery pack is 'safe'(er), and if you are relying on the information in the video that the two "I50" items are fuses...some evidence instead supports that they likely are shunts designed for current sensing in the pack.
I also don't understand why Espruino would suggest using standard "Phillips" screws is a comment on quality of the entire product. That makes ZERO-sense. I actually prefer products that use "standard" fasteners as they are easier for the user to gain access to make upgrades, replace old cells, etc. In general, "special" fasteners are usually used by a manufacturer to prevent a customer from doing things like replacing Li-Ion cells so the consumer has to replace the entire product at a MUCH higher cost...and sometimes at a hgher cost to the environment...e.g. more stuff in landfills due to lax and/or improper recycling.
Espruino also suggests "contacts are doubled up" and concludes that allows more current. That is another assumption on his part. Actual performance depends on other factors such as the dimensions of the conductor, and very importantly the alloy(s) used *and* how they are used. For example, nickel-plated steel strips vs. nickel-plated copper or other superior conductor makes a huge difference as anyone who is well informed and constructs battery packs will tell you. He also makes assumption about component population of the underside of the PCB in the Makita battery pack.
@@exgenica doubling up the contacts will increase the current carrying capacity.
@@rickylee64 Not always...as I addressed in my comment. Unless one makes some major assumptions, what actually happens depends on more than just "doubling up the contacts".
Manufacturers are ALWAYS looking for ways to cut costs, and some aren't too picky on how they do it. Manufacturing errors can also introduce significant failures...even in designs with redundant elements.
Here's a real-life example. I recently bought a REPLACEMENT battery for my electric bike (e-bike). The ORIGINAL battery has 4 user-visible contacts on top that plug into the e-bike's motor controller. Inside the "Do not open, No user-serviceable parts inside" battery case, it had 2 of those 4 visible contacts connected by 2 separate wires to the negative/common of the battery pack, and the remaining 2 of the 4 visible contacts connected by 2 separate wires to the positive of the battery pack. In other words, it was splitting the current handling of what could have been just 2 visible contacts...between the 4 visible contacts and added redundancy...which CAN be a good thing.
However...
The REPLACEMENT battery also has 4 user-visible contacts, with 2 of the visible contacts connected by 2 separate wires connecteded to the negative/common of the battery pack. BUT...ONLY ONE WIRE connected 1 of the 2 remaining visible contacts to the positive of the battery pack. This means the 4th user-visible contact wasn't connected to anything, and the current handling was not being split-up properly by the doubled-up contacts.
I investigated and determined that all wires involved (ORIGINAL and REPLACEMENT battery packs) were all copper, the SAME gauge, approximate length, etc. Each wire was designed to handle a maximum of about 11 Amps, for a doubled-up total of about 22 Amps. This means that due to just the 1 wire connecting the positive of the battery, the REPLACEMENT battery pack could safely supply only HALF the maximum amps to the e-bike compared to the maximum amps the ORIGINAL battery pack could safely supply to the e-bike. Had I run the e-bike near or at its top speed with the REPLACEMENT battery, it's highly likely that over time the pack's wiring would have SHORTED OUT due to melted insulation and potentially caused an explosion or fire, as the battery packs all use Lithium-Manganese based cells. Fortunately, before that could happen I added that 4th wire (that already should have been there) between that unused contact and the positive of the battery pack and didn't have any problems.
Hi!
Can you ran espruino on any of the battery packs? :)
It had crossed my mind! I doubt the uC in them would do it, but there's definitely room inside the cheap ones for another board ;)
can you remove the batteries in the pack and replace them?
Hi, great video, I am a Master student, and am doing a project on designing and battery system for gardening tools, and I noticed that most of them have an 18V battery pack, I just wanted to know if the cells used are 18650 cells, as the capacity being 5Ah, would need a two sets of 5 cells being in parallel right ? Because I am assuming that 18650 cells do not have such a high capacity, or are they 21700 cells ? Thanks a ton !!
Yes, that's right - it's just 10x 18650 cells - two sets of 5
This is the BL1830B which has 5 series, 2 parallel for twice the run time (current in Ah) of the BL1815 which is 5 series, 1 parallel.
The 18650s that an OEM battery pack is assembled from are power cells that can produce a lot of amperage quickly, until that circuit decides that the #1 battery is below the cut off.
Does the official one have built-in over-discharge protection?
@Thu Nell Ⓥ it doesnt!!!. you can see that the battery connections connected directly to the cells using only 1 fuse -not mosfet!!! so the circuit cant protect the cells from anything exept short circuit.
It doesn't need overcharge protection. The charger contains that circuitry.
Thank you I will be careful to avoid such clones!
Did you notice on the Makita one the third exposed metal sliding contact is actually two separate pairs electrically isolated? I'm trying to find out why because I have a BL1830 which is rejected by the drill. Charge indicator on the power tool says it is full (it is 20V across the outer slide connectors) and it works if I unlatch and slide it out 1 mm, but press it fully home and the tool work light operates when I pull the trigger but the motor does not run.
The near part of the third contact is at the same voltage as the +ve terminal but the far part is at the voltage of the -ve terminal on this rejected battery - on a good one it is also at the +ve terminal voltage. What function does it serve?
Curiously, the charger does not connect to the +ve terminal, instead it joins the two parts of the third contact together and uses them for charging.
Wow, that's interesting! No, I'd never noticed that. Maybe it allows the drill battery to detect if it is inserted into a drill that has a connection to that third pin (which would short them together)? It doesn't really explain why half-sliding it in would make the drill work though!
The drill connects to the furthest part of the third sliding connector, the near part if it is not pressed fully home. If the drill contact is at the +ve potential the drill works fully. If it is at the -ve potential the drill work light operates as normal but the motor does not. Clearly this allows the battery to disable the high current part of the drill. Same in other power tools no doubt. I suppose it could be used if the battery temperature was too high or the cells were too imbalanced.
@@murdo_mckthe deepest of the 2 pins is a signalling pin. High means the tool is allowed to run, low means tool won't run. I cover it in my 6th video. Unfortuantely I don't think you'll be able to fix your battery. The BMS has likely permanently locked itself.
@@toolscientist I was able to get this battery to work with the Makita charger and the drill. It had been rejected by the charger either 1 or 2 times only before I replaced the cells so the BMS had not locked. I shorted together the front and back contacts of the third slider (the small split one) together with the battery positive slider. BTW it is a 3.0 Ah first generation (no charge indicator) BL1830.
Thank you for your video, it is reassuring to know I'm probably missing out only on low voltage protection which I can do without.
I have confirmed it charges to the same end point voltage as an unmodified battery and the cells remain balanced.
this was an interesting video, do any of the packs,cases and boards interchange into the original case. like if the makita BL1830 just had dead batteries (is there a date on them? no idea how old mine is, bought used) could i get a $22 AUD on ebay currently cheapie and put it in the makita case and use the makita BMS/board etc (i have a feeling a lot of these fake makita batteries don't fit the makita charger)
It's hard to know but it feels like they should be interchangeable to some extent... You could definitely buy a dead battery and swap the cells, and unless there is something in the Makita control board that intentionally bricks it, it should be fine (I'd be pretty confident saying there's nothing in the clones that would stop you doing that). I have taken a 10 cell battery with dead cells and swapped them all around to make a working 5 cell battery, and that was fine. Or you could definitely take an old clone battery, buy a cheap $6 makita cell balancer board and fit it, and I think at most you'd need some minor work with a dremel.
What is function of thrd terminal, one is main postive and second is main negative and what is purpose of third terminal which is just sitting on left side just along side with positive terminal, usually (TH) is written on it??
It could be the thermal sensor. In case of hot cells, it would stop the tool or the charger.
@@ozciva Yes, that pin is essentially a temperature and amperage lockout. If the onboard battery microcontroller senses too high temp or current, that TH pin is activated, which locks out the throttle control in the tool. It's easier to lockout the tool's speed controller rather than cramming MOSFETS in the battery.
Chinese clone blew up at work, almost started major fire, that is why I am researching here.
Can you change the batteries round
Amazing 🤩
The English answer to AVE :)
Bigclive is the best! This is great though!
Not really....he would be like AvE's off-camera helper.
gret video!
How many cell batteries in there 4 or 8?
I bought one of these makita copy batteries expecting a non protected batterypack.
Indeed, no protection for overcharge/undervoltage.
Capacity claimed was 6 Ah but tests showed only 3 Ah and no cutoff at too low voltages.
Current delivery was good enough to use, cells are not that bad.
I think the processing on the fake board is used to fool the Makita charger.
There are now Makita compatible replacement batteries for sale that do have proper cell protection built-in.
Problem is, most of the time you just don"t know.
Just returned a 6Ah / 6000mAh "fake" as the cells were 2 banks of five 1500mAh cells from China - a 3Ah battery at best, if they are really 1500mAh!
My original 5Ah BL18650 weighed 633g, the "fake" 553g
Are you sure those wires actually balance the cells and don't simply monitor over and under voltage ,n.ie its a bms rather than a balance board
Well, the clone packs don't connect individual cells so I'd imagine they are just a BMS - measuring the voltage across the first cell is 1/5 of the pack voltage would allow them to do a basic check that the pack was ok. The OEM Makita pack might do some balancing though - there are a lot more components on there and it does connect to every cell individually.
They will not "just break", they will caught on fire. I know because I've just almost burned the house with it. Never buy replacement batteries. That's dumbest thing on which you can save. I know what I'm saying.
Drill go “burr, burr”
Generics made by Chinese companies are based on lifted intellectual property from foreign companies (usually American or European). If a company is using stolen technology, then they have no need for any R&D department. Which means you can afford to undercut your competitors in an effort to eventually drive them out of business (standard Chinese company modus operandi). Buying knock-offs is not a cool thing to do and is likely to get you into a real spot of bother sooner or later, not to mention void your tool warranties. I wouldn't use knock-offs if they were given to me for free. But you probably didn't want to read all that on your channel, lol.
eh, no thanks to the knock-offs. had one die in six months or so; other one going downhill fast. meanwhile the genuine makita batteries have finally bit the dust for the most part after the better part of three years.
if you are just using those chinese ones on just a drill, then okay, maybe they will live long enough. but i bet they will dicharge their power like a roman candle if you put them in a duc256 for instance.
i am still looking for a solution about the microcontroller that bricks the original makita pcb. there is a f0513 and a l5202 on board, and i wonder wich it could be, how do you make it forget, and will the pcb live again. unfortunately microcontrollers are something i dont know a lot about, but i think have the solution so many seek.
After staying they might cause a fire, you then say you might as well buy fake battery’s if they last a 3rd of the time lol,
A mixed message don’t do think, I will stick to buying originals battery thank you.
Everyone claims the "balancing" version balances the cells, but there doesn't appear to be any balancing circuitry on the board. It appears the extra leads simply monitor the separate cells so it can brick the battery when one cells falls out of it's set tolerance (as well as prevent over-discharge from running one of the cells in a backwards polarity configuration). It would be nice to see someone test the balancing function of the aftermarket replacement boards for functionality, both in balancing as well as low-voltage cutoff with imbalanced cells). Thx for the content.
I expected _at the very least_ to see:
1) the 18650 cell form-factor verified, and IF not 18650 then whatever it actually is (like perhaps the similar 21700)
2) the li-ion cell pack configuration (e.g. 5s3p) identified,
3) if at all possible also the cell brand and part number if printed on the cells or in any consumer literature like the user manual,
4) the CLAIMED per cell mAh capacity/ampacity,
5) mAh compared to actual test results from using a well-known *reasonably reliable* analyzer like an ImaX B6v2 or even if only something as simple and cheap as a ZB2L3 analyzer...
6) literally any info or test results that would give us meaningful information on the actual performance compared to claims that allows us to know and compare the authentic Makita pack performance with the clones' performance.
Exactly, 8 minutes of bla, bla, bla, not showing the most important.
OK, I will answer you.
1. They are 18650's, even an idiot can see that.
2. They are 5S2P - even an idiot can see that.
3. He TOLD YOU that the cells in the clones aren't marked. So how the FUCK can he verify the brand, dumb arse?
4. No performance claims per cell are made - remember, the cells are unmarked. Dumb, or what?
5. Yep, capacity test would be interesting but almost useless. The Chinese clone packs will contain whatever cells are cheapest on the day of assembly, maybe new, maybe used, maybe good, maybe faulty. So any measurement of capacity will only apply to the pack(s) shown in the video, so couldn't be applied to other clones purchased elsewhere.
6. See point 5.
you missed out the most important part .... what are the cells??? Sony ? ... what is the capacity ....
Ebay now selling genuine makita 18V 5AHr for $15.60 inc delivery !!
you must be kidding. 5ah for 15usd :) original?
@@minde28383 Update ... these makita packs were a scam , they never arrived ..I did get full refund from eBay
the saying "if it's too good to be true, it probably is" is appropriate here. genuine makita batteries are not that inexpensive, and there are a lot of fakes out there (not aftermarket batteries, but aftermarket batteries trying to look pass as the real deal).
buyer beware, and do yourself a favor and learn how to spot the fakes.
Li-Ion cells are one of the more _COUNTERFEITED_ products in online selling. Even reputable companies occasionally get counterfeit cells when they order in bulk for resale and unknowingly sell them to customers. I always test every single cell I buy...for performance AND safety reasons. Outrageous claims of ampacities of 4000mAh and above for *_inexpensive_* 18650 cells are often made *and they are printed with VERY well known brand names and part numbers*
Then there are literally impossible claims of over 4500mAh for a single 18650 cell. The chemistry simply doesn't allow that much safe energy storage in an 18650 cell form-factor.
One must also remember that the higher the storage capacity for a given form-factor (like the 18650) generally the more likely it is to have a shorter useful lifetime and/or reduced number of charge cycles, and/or seriously impaired construction as as far as safety is concerned.
"Almost certainly".. an EEPROM.
I thought it was bout the inside of battery
cells themselves.
packaging.
BMS.
shell quality.
there you go.
Hmm, Thanks for the video but just opening the housing and talking 8 minutes about your guessing and believe... I am a bit disappointed. You have no profound arguments for the controller nor cells nor capacity nor facts about unbalanced cells in the OEM packs... Maybe you can add some more valuable information to such a long video.
Agreed. Far too much assumption. Great example is "cell balancing"... genuine Makita packs don't have balancing either, it is very rare on ANY power tool packs.
All they do is monitor cell voltages and trip an electronic fuse or trip a lockout if any of the cells go above or below certain pre-programmed voltage thresholds.
AGREE. At least ID the cells in Makita. I came here to be able to spot GOOD FAKES. The top view of OE Makita PCB is helpful. Both of his knockoffs NOT asserting to be OE Makita, simply "compatible".
I'm looking forward to your video on the subject so we can all see how it should be done. You have had four years so I am sure you have done it by now.
Quelqu'un peut m'expliquer ce qu'il dit en français ? Je serais très reconnaissant
En gros le BMS (circuit imprimé) est plus évolué sur la batterie OEM que sur les 2 clones. Ça permet notamment de mieux gérer la recharge des accus sur le moyen/long terme et préserve donc la batterie. D'autre part les clones utilisent des accus qui ne permettent pas de délivrer une grosse intensité (donc puissance). Cela implique donc que pour les outils demandeurs de puissance comme les meuleuses, clés à chocs etc ce sera probablement trop juste.
Replacement Power Tool Battery for Makita BL1830
Battery Type: Li-ion
Voltage: 18V
Capacity: 3000mAh
Color: Black
Weight: 697.5g
Dimensions: 114.80 x 74.55 x 65.20mm
www.drillbattery.com.au/buybattery.php/makita_BL1830_power+tool+battery.html
I see the difference. The originals are better, but they are still overpriced.
I'm having a hard time trying to understand, the accent is too heavy
His accent is very clear. Count yourself lucky it wasn’t a guy from my neck of the woods making the video. You wouldn’t have understood a word.......
No heavy accent that I could hear... just an English person speaking in English.
It’s only when you come to driving high demand power hungry tools you realize why the OEM is needed and worth the extra cost 💵. However if you’re only drilling a 5mm hole now and again and screwing and unscrewing half a dozen small screws I get the appeal of a good knock off battery. Having said that I still wouldn’t buy knock offs 🪫 as I’m always scared of electrical fires and shorts especially if I left the battery on charge overnight because I forgot to take it off. It’s a lot of power being stored in a small box 🔥.