Hello everyone, this is Chris Huntley, director of marketing for Bart Ehrman. We appreciate your engagement and interest in Dr. Robyn Walsh's appearance on our channel. We'd like to kindly request that comments remain focused on the fascinating insights she shared during the interview. Dr. Walsh is a highly accomplished scholar, holding a Ph.D. in Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean and serving as an Associate Professor at the University of Miami. We're delighted to have her expertise contributing to our discussions. Let's continue the conversation with respect for her intellectual contributions and impressive scholarship. Thank you!
I find Dr. Walsh’s views highly insightful and helpful. When reading the gospels (as well as other religious literature), I usually think: Creative writers at work.
I agree. The only thing that deters me from listening to Bart Ehrman, whose books have taught me so much about first-century Christianity, is the brief bursts of (nervous?) laughter that so repeatedly interrupt the flow of his words. Megan Lewis, though, draws him back quickly into a more fluid, less choppy approach, and I can listen (and learn!) to their conversations from beginning to end. It’s been such an improvement over Bart’s solo performances! 👍
What perplexes me is how Megan is still a believer with the research her husband and her have done. My wife is a believer also, but she's not an assyriologist, nor is her husband. I do like her approach and open mindedness though.
@@JayBandersnatchPart of me wonders if there is a physiological component to belief? That we all are wired differently and that for most people, as Hume pointed out in an almost direct reference to Thomas Paine, there is an emotional component that can override logic? So no matter how much we can point out flaws, a person will be physically unable to let go? This reminds me of Mayim Balick (spelling?) from Jeopardy and Big Bang Theory and how, dispite her being a PhD level neuroscientist with mountains of literature on the subject, still justifies believing in her own higher power. I don’t know…I could be mistaken, but I just think we are wired for it and it may be impossible for most people to give up. This is NOT a slam on believers (unless they are fundamentalists and fanatical).
@@thelostone6981 I understand your point, however in long term believers turned non believers, what actually happens in their brain to "let go"? I was a believer for 35 years, in fact I was a fundamentalist for those 35 years. I understand that emotion can override logic, yet with myself and many ex-fundies, logic ultimately won.
Dr. Ehrmans vast knowledge and expertise is endlessly fascinating, and keeps me hooked and coming back for more - the occasional guest keeps things interesting...and of course Megan's a gem! (Love the glasses).
Dr. Ehrman is always a win! But Meghan Lewis 😍, you are also a win!! Dr. Walsh 😍, thank you for your time. This was nice and insightful. You're a win too!!!
What a gift!!! As a pastor and person who went to seminary and LOVED this stuff, I am really loving the opportunity to be back in the weeds, if you will. Thanks!
I'm a new subscriber and I wish I had come across this sooner. It would be good if more people exposed themselves to this kind of approach to these subject matters. very enjoyable and informative. I also enjoy the range of glasses that Megan wears in different vids. the pair in this vid are fascinating.
I was reminded of the position held by scholar and translator Jacob Rabinowitz, who emphasizes in his rewarding 1998 book 'The Unholy Bible: Hebrew Literature of the Kingdom Period', that the Jews never lived in isolation from the larger sociocultural sphere of the eastern Mediterranean, and were significantly influenced by Greek thought and literature in the centuries of Hellenization throughout the Near East. This was evidenced not only by the Septuagint that came out of Alexandria, being the Greek translation of Hebrew scripture that incorporated new texts originally composed in Greek, but also Biblical texts originally composed in Hebrew which yet are suffused with ideas and positions rooted in Greek philosophy. Rabinowitz presents and translates Ecclesiastes and Job among his examples. Rabinowitz's overriding conclusion is that ancient Judaism and its texts developed and existed in relation with the surrounding cultures of the eastern Mediterranean, and modern attempts to understand and honestly represent the tradition should acknowledge this.
Ancient Judaism is a confusing term because Judaism is actually slightly younger the Christianity. Confused? Allow me to explain, the movement, religion or whatever you want to call it that came into Place through Moses in the wilderness and guided the Israelites and then the kingdom of Judah and later Judaea was not Judaism. If you were to put a similar label on it it would be Levi-ism . Judah was a tribe. They ruled from David onwards but all religious matters, instructions and teachings were not only exclusively administered by the tribe of Levi, but that was there inheritance through the Law of Moses. Everyone else got land, Levites got service to the Most High, Judaism only became the de facto when the Temple was destroyed and the Levites have been reduced to singers and have the dubious honour of the first Torah reading everything else has been usurped by Jewish Rabbis and the beginnings of that is rooted in the influence of Greek thought or Hellenisation and the opposition to it which ended up producing two schools of thought Pharisees and Sadducees but if you read the travails of Moses any tribe outside the Levites that tried to gain religious power were destroyed and any Levites that tried to appropriate the priesthood that was only for the sons of Aaron, Moses brother were destroyed. The Jewish legend or mid rash that says that the Talmud, the oral law they are obsessed with came through Moses also, if it started in those times it was started by a bunch of Jewish (tribe of Judah) elders complaining in the tent, ‘let’s go back to Egypt this Moses is going to get us killed and what’s with the funny hats?’.
@@aural_supremacy The cult of Iesuos is a greek fueled movement that is a typical greek merge with a local belief system. So what we have is competing greek-roman literature using greek tropes from Homer, Vergil, Euripides and greek philosophy mixed with some jewish ideas.
“The Temple Tantrum” OMG! That’s the name of your next book Doc! Don’t know how many people have unpacked that part of the NT, but it deserves some unpacking 😊.
Interesting new ideas. Megan did a fantastic job introducing us to Robyn's views, would love to listen to part 2 with Bart pushing back from his "german" perspective!
Robyn gives a good insight of how contemporary filters can stand in the way of a more factual understanding, how it REALLY was then! Her approach of the material is really refreshing and therefore her contributing has added value. At least to me.
Hey Megan. I'm amazed at the variety and multiplicity of your spectacles. Are you unfortunate and breaking 😢 them and having to replace them or........
This one was so good. I feel it tells something about how the formation of religion happened, the coexistence of elites and commoners, their folk literature. The Greek and other literature mixed up with scholastic skills of early apostles and forming a new religion! It shows how religions form, roughly. How it mingles with local culture and becomes mainstream through time. Then we are told to believe it as the only authentic narrative. Your analysis was great. I'm glad we are not making new religions now haha.. I might get the red book only if I could afford it :pp Thanks againn
How about Scientology? Mormonism? Materialism? Communism? Scientism? Each ticks all the boxes of religious conceptualization of existence... a creation hypothesis, a "priest class" who tells you about what's real, and instructions on how you fit into it all.
I love how Robyn links the Germanic folk tales and Brothers Grimm to the folk tales of the early Christians, Romans and Greeks. And she taught me a new word that I can work with as a writer "Paradoxography". Brilliant! Thanks, Robyn and Megan!
Love this. It's badly needed to bring a more Classical perspective on these books, because so many New Testament scholars only know Greek from studying Koine "New Testament" Greek which has led their translations and understandings to be circularly "theological." Yes, Pneuma can be translated (and usually was, in Classical texts ) translated as words other than "spirit" as Dr. Walsh says here!
Fantastic conversation. Interesting scholarship. I've heard for so long about the Jewishness of Jesus, Paul and early Christianity that seeing the gospels through a classics/Greco-Roman lens feels like a big switch...but I'm listening. This interview passed the Bechdel test with flying colors too, which was nice
Walsh makes an interesting point. We approach the Bible as the story of one of the most popular religions on the planet. When it was written, Christianity was a Jewish cult. The majority of people in the second century would have thought of Christianity in the same way as we think of fringe cults today.
Particularly for the gospels this is because they are supposed to be inspired by God and a part of God's divine revelation. To say that these are influenced by Greco-Roman sources and that the gospels probably also borrowed from them almost feels like a type of apostasy and heresy if you come from a more fundamental or Evangelical point of view. Others though, may also still say that the reason that Greco-Roman text may also look like gospel text is because demons influenced and inspired the Greco-Roman text to look that way. I think that that is what Justin Martyr argues in his apologies from the 2nd Century and I have also heard personal friends use that very same argument.
Christianity is a greek-roman cult with a jewish flavour. We have only greek sources. They are written by greek authors for a greek audience using tropes from greek literature.
Here in Hawaii God has waved his hand and Exempted all churches from trash pick-up fees another great example is they'll form an exempt organization and never paid taxes net profit after they steal every dollar they can out of the exempt Foundation
Fascinating approach! So much food for thought. I really appreciate looking at the literature as if nothing is known about it and then proceeding as with any newly discovered ancient text. I am now a retired pastor, but I have read mountains most of my life endeavoring to find out what actually happened and who were these people. It seems to me, without discovering more ancient texts that give pointed information, we may never know. Yet it is so important because these stories have had a huge impact on all of history that followed, on lives of real people, on hopes and fears, of control and freedom, etc.
We know as it is obvious for everyone who read Homer, Euripides, Vergil and knows greek philosophy. Greek authors produced greek-roman literature in greek for a greek audience. This is obvious for every greek in the 2nd century. The problem in when Americans in the 21 century imagine it is their story.
Megan did a good job (as always) but it's a shame Bart couldn't make this one because it sounds like some of the things Robyn criticises are things that Bart has put forward I'm previous episodes, so it would have been nice to hear them discuss their differences in a constructive, scholarly way.
It would be interesting to hear Ehrman and Walsh in dialogue because you’re right… Walsh takes a much more cautious approach to many aspects of the field. Particularly when it comes to the idea of oral tradition. She thinks it’s an assumption not a fact that much of the material in the gospels is based on oral tradition, whereas Ehrman definitely hangs his hat on substantial amounts of oral tradition behind the gospels.
What I see in the gospels are stories that pushback on the pagan gods' powers attributed to them. The gospels give their character magical powers that are equal to the many ancient gods people were very fond of. It's also obvious they used a great deal of stories from more ancient writers like Homer, changing bits here and there and repurposing them for their purpose. Also, there were lots more written than the 4 in the NT.
"there were lots more written than the 4 in the NT" So true! And I wish they would get more attention. After all, the 4 were only differentiated from those others and given a uniquely special authority after more than 200 years had passed and they had undergone numerous revisions. It seems inappropriate to approach the subject of early Christianity as if all those other writings weren't also pivotal in shaping and expressing the views of the people at that time.
@@fepeerreview3150 That's not really true though. There were certainly other Gospels, but all the evidence is that they were all later and usually more fanciful as time went on. Even in the earliest references that we can trace to the canonical 4, they're clearly seen as the most important and thus would always have had more effect on shaping the growing religion. Formal canonization was later, but just reflected what had already been long understood.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 Every single source claims to be the only authority. So John showed how false the others were as did every other single author. They considered themselves as the ONLY true story. So to compile stories must have been done long after the death of them.
A powerful Roman Senatorial family called the Calpurnius Pisos wrote the Gospels, that's according to Henry Davis who states this in his newly revised and updated book "Creating Christianity". Davis explains how he discovered the "Royal Code" and how he deciphered it, Mr. Davis is an historical researcher and you will be astounded by what he reveals, l appeal to you to read the book, it's jam packed with information.
Megan, are you reselling your frames every week at a mark-up and giving the proceeds to charity? I’ve watched dozens of episodes already and I swear I have never seen you wear the same pair of glasses twice… and they’re eye-catching every single time!
My hope was to find an answer to the question: Is the New Testament Actually Greek Literature? Yes, No or Maybe. At the end of the video I am more confused that ever about this. The discussion is not structured and has no answer.
I agree. I'm going to have to actually read her book instead of relying on YT interviews. She leaves a lot unsaid about her findings. Probably intentional to stoke interest.
I felt like the answer was clear enough, but it depends on your criteria for whether a question is answered. If you want a firm “yes” or “no”, you should avoid any academic topics, since such plain answers are only available for base principles. For complex cultural processes among the vast variety of human activities and interactions in the real world, the answer is “both,” which means the purpose of this discussion is to understand how our views of the subject matter change when we tentatively accept the proposal that the answer is “yes.”
@@davidk7529 I do not think so. After 2000 year of studying the NT we should be able to answer to this question. Probably some other people can answer. Not the lady in the video. As regarding academic topics, this channel is so appreciated due to the fact that can transmit clear ideas and messages to the people in cases of complex Biblical texts. Of course the answer is not 100% sure but within a confidence interval a specialist may say YES or NO. The NT has 27 books and the authors are anonymous except the 7 letters of Saint Paul. My expectation was to do at least a sort of literary analysis of the 4 Gospels, Acts and Revelations. The Letters are probably difficult to interpret from the point of Greek language but not impossible and many interesting ideas could emerge. Instead we have learned a lot about how difficult the text is, about German Romantic era and so on.
"I was raised Catholic, I was a terrible student." Too bad we weren't in the same school, hah! P.S. Megan your glasses look absolutely ridiculous this time.
So my critique if you can call it that concerns paradoxology. I will preface the critque with this. We cannot be absolutely certain when editing occurred to the gospels. Although now it seems likely that Luke is second century and bits and pieces of the gospel of John are being added in the third century. Having said that. Paradoxollogy? Seriously. Most of what we have on this genre is after the third century. The only exception to this is On Marvelous things Heard, which is more or less a dirty laundry list of things added to a presumptive Aristotle, officially called Psuedo-aristotle and widely considered psuedepigraphy. I wish Robyn would go into more detail about subversive biographies, both extrabiblical and biblical.
Intriguing conversation! I like her rebellious approach! -- Consistent with the Digital Hammurabi motto "How do you know that?" For clarification, on the question of Gospel authors' relationship to a community (or communities), is it plausible to assume that one of their main sources on the life of Jesus was oral traditions circulating in Christian communities? And wouldn't Christian communities be their likely intended audience? If so, how much or how little does Robyn Walsh think this relationship influenced their writings? And is the idea Robyn is challenging simply the notion that the Gospel authors didn't have their own perspective or agenda apart from, or above and beyond, the Christian circles? And so, is her goal exploring how the wider Greco-Roman culture influenced them, and how this influence has been overlooked? Sounds very interesting! It is certainly something I haven't thought about much. I've got homework to do!
I think she “over-corrects” to a pretty significant degree but you have a good read on why she’s an important scholar. Essentially, emphasizing the way Greco-Roman literary conceits influenced the construction of these texts.
In answer to your question yes, you are spot-on. If you haven't read book one of Livy's histories, then I highly recommend that. You will be unable to not notice how the Ascension of Romulus mirrors Jesus Ascension in the gospel of Matthew. And yet Livy wrote approximately 100 years before Matthew did. I think this type of analysis is what Robin and others are getting to.
These "communities" were at best people showing up sometime or move on to other religions or take part in several at a time. They jnew nothing about anything and have some hearsay. We have greek authors who write for a greek audience in greek using tropes from Homer, Vergil, Euripides and grerk philosophy. It is a typical merge cult and here is greek-jewish god mix as we have greek-egyptian god mix.
I will settle for approaching the New Testament as strictly literature and as a product of a literary community. Fascinating what she argued about Mark injecting a Latinate influence into his Koine (Huck Finn) Greek. Seems like Jewish women were not allowed to oil up dead male bodies--according to Rabbi Singer--a lot of poetic license in these works. The Romantic British poet William Blake was very much attracted to Gnostic Christianity in poems like the The Tiger, hardly a man to take an Orthodox interpretation, but I see no Romantic nationalism in his approach, more a rebellion against orthodox religion, which perhaps is also a Romantic approach
The human brain/genome really has very few (repetitive) tropes, motifs and themes it responds to. Religion has branded the most powerful ones, eg, life after death, etc. It is worthwhile for anyone working with story telling and behavior, inlcu biz folks, artists etc - to dig into the sources. The academic professionals are doing us alla services to uncover how these magical-religious stories were cobbled together. I am studying Dr. RFW's book and others closely.
No cause as Nietzsche said "it's not even good Greek". The lacking of literary quality points to the fact that literary quality was not the goal of the authors. It was instead a message to the masses.
17:00 Shakespeare would be ENGLISH not British or UK, especially since the UK did not exist in his time. Robert Burns would be the relevant equivalent for Scotland.
One other important aspect I disagree with - the urge to place an overwhelming emphasis on “The Author”, which is itself an antiquated and romanticized conceit! And with the gospels this is especially dangerous - for example, Mark Bilby argues each gospel has 2 or 3 distinct layers of composition over a period of 50ish years. Luke being an especially powerful candidate for this conceptualization.
Seems from archeological findings in Pompeii or Vindolanda (a Roman fort in the UK) that much more people would write and read in Antiquity than scholars previously thought.
@@spiritualanarchist8162no I imagine they meant the Vindolanda tablets. Small thin wooden boards used for letters or short messages and written on with carbon based ink. They were often written by scribes though and just signed/sealed by the person sending them. Even ones that appear not to be written by scribes could well be mainly from and to educated people like officers who were either higher status citizens or aristocratic tribal auxiliary leaders.
@@murph8411 Well I guess for example merchants or centurions (To name but a few ) had to learn some basic means of writing and calculus. It's not that far fetched to presume a lot of Romans did learn some basic communications . To lead troops , buy and sell goods, etc.
I'm reminded of the Monty Python 'Romans go home' sketch. Neither Vindolanda nor Pompeii provide evidence of the high level literacy required to produce the gospels. Vindolanda tablets reveal military clerks could read and write simple records and letters. Pompeii graffiti reveal some civilians had basic literacy.
Omg sine wave glasses. I need a pair. Both of you bring real scholarship to the table and I don’t mean to imply anything by such a superficial comment but I teach electricians and think the glasses are rad.
I really want to know if there’s a story behind the frames changing every week, and I’m hoping it involves reselling them to fans for a mark-up that goes to charity 🥰
Yes and fiction. In what language are the greatest mythologies written? Greek. Oral tradition or otherwise a 'game of telephone'. Science-ignorant, magic-believing, superstitious people telling grandiose stories to get others to believe in their version of Jesus.
30:55-31:12 That’s (mostly) ridiculous. P.S./Edit: this really seems like a kind of rebranding of richard carrier to sound a tad bit more palatable for academia. It’s Jesus mythicism without saying Jesus mythicism.
@@danielgibson8799 yes, but definitely not quite as fringe as just "Jesus never existed at all". And plenty of scholars are open to doubting how much really can be reliably known based specifically on the gospels.
@@Luke_Meyer It is indeed true that the Gospels (especially the ones after “Mark”) don’t provide a reliable factual life of Jesus. Doesn’t mean that Paul was educated in paideia and the Last Supper is correlated with the satyricon.
![NISAMANEE - TADA (ท้าดา) [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hcQHEPMmJpU/mqdefault.jpg)
Hello everyone, this is Chris Huntley, director of marketing for Bart Ehrman. We appreciate your engagement and interest in Dr. Robyn Walsh's appearance on our channel. We'd like to kindly request that comments remain focused on the fascinating insights she shared during the interview. Dr. Walsh is a highly accomplished scholar, holding a Ph.D. in Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean and serving as an Associate Professor at the University of Miami. We're delighted to have her expertise contributing to our discussions. Let's continue the conversation with respect for her intellectual contributions and impressive scholarship. Thank you!
Sorry, I didn’t notice any “fascinating insights”. I only heard a lot of talking around the subject. I didn’t hear the subject actually addressed.
Yeah, true
Interesting--your comment is not doing the very thing you ask us to do.
She is also very pretty
@@bloopyscoopy3141you can’t be serious
I find Dr. Walsh’s views highly insightful and helpful. When reading the gospels (as well as other religious literature), I usually think: Creative writers at work.
I like Bart Ehrman, but I love listening to Megan Lewis.
I agree. The only thing that deters me from listening to Bart Ehrman, whose books have taught me so much about first-century Christianity, is the brief bursts of (nervous?) laughter that so repeatedly interrupt the flow of his words. Megan Lewis, though, draws him back quickly into a more fluid, less choppy approach, and I can listen (and learn!) to their conversations from beginning to end. It’s been such an improvement over Bart’s solo performances! 👍
I would love if they switched seats and she talk about her field of study and knowledge.
What perplexes me is how Megan is still a believer with the research her husband and her have done. My wife is a believer also, but she's not an assyriologist, nor is her husband. I do like her approach and open mindedness though.
@@JayBandersnatchPart of me wonders if there is a physiological component to belief? That we all are wired differently and that for most people, as Hume pointed out in an almost direct reference to Thomas Paine, there is an emotional component that can override logic? So no matter how much we can point out flaws, a person will be physically unable to let go?
This reminds me of Mayim Balick (spelling?) from Jeopardy and Big Bang Theory and how, dispite her being a PhD level neuroscientist with mountains of literature on the subject, still justifies believing in her own higher power. I don’t know…I could be mistaken, but I just think we are wired for it and it may be impossible for most people to give up. This is NOT a slam on believers (unless they are fundamentalists and fanatical).
@@thelostone6981 I understand your point, however in long term believers turned non believers, what actually happens in their brain to "let go"? I was a believer for 35 years, in fact I was a fundamentalist for those 35 years. I understand that emotion can override logic, yet with myself and many ex-fundies, logic ultimately won.
Megan's variety of eyewear always adds some visual interest.
Please keep us updated on whether Bart finds the Holy Grail.
If it ends up being anything like Mrs. Davis, for God's sake, Bart: please don't drink from it!
I've already got one. It's verra nice.
@@christopherjohnson5575 Is there someone else we can talk to?
He keeps his keys in it.
Dr. Ehrmans vast knowledge and expertise is endlessly fascinating, and keeps me hooked and coming back for more - the occasional guest keeps things interesting...and of course Megan's a gem! (Love the glasses).
Robin Walsh is awesome thanks for having her on the podcast
Dr. Ehrman is always a win!
But Meghan Lewis 😍, you are also a win!!
Dr. Walsh 😍, thank you for your time. This was nice and insightful. You're a win too!!!
What a gift!!! As a pastor and person who went to seminary and LOVED this stuff, I am really loving the opportunity to be back in the weeds, if you will. Thanks!
Great interview! Both participants, are so easy to listen to. I always wonder where Megan gets her glasses. Such unusual! Love them!
We should bring on a glasses company as a sponsor! haha
maybe a facebookgroup dedicated to Megans glasses....
@@Duvan_och_Hoken Sign me up!
Great episode. Love Dr. Walsh’s perspectives!
Very insightful! Thanks Megan and Robyn!
Dr. Walsh brings so much to the table. I could listen to her all day, so glad she’s on the podcast today
Interesting and very thought provoking interview. Thanks.
Temple tantrum! 10/10. I really enjoyed this discussion and Dr. Walsh's ideas.
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL PEOPLE 👀❓️.
I'm a new subscriber and I wish I had come across this sooner. It would be good if more people exposed themselves to this kind of approach to these subject matters. very enjoyable and informative.
I also enjoy the range of glasses that Megan wears in different vids. the pair in this vid are fascinating.
I was reminded of the position held by scholar and translator Jacob Rabinowitz, who emphasizes in his rewarding 1998 book 'The Unholy Bible: Hebrew Literature of the Kingdom Period', that the Jews never lived in isolation from the larger sociocultural sphere of the eastern Mediterranean, and were significantly influenced by Greek thought and literature in the centuries of Hellenization throughout the Near East. This was evidenced not only by the Septuagint that came out of Alexandria, being the Greek translation of Hebrew scripture that incorporated new texts originally composed in Greek, but also Biblical texts originally composed in Hebrew which yet are suffused with ideas and positions rooted in Greek philosophy. Rabinowitz presents and translates Ecclesiastes and Job among his examples.
Rabinowitz's overriding conclusion is that ancient Judaism and its texts developed and existed in relation with the surrounding cultures of the eastern Mediterranean, and modern attempts to understand and honestly represent the tradition should acknowledge this.
Ancient Judaism is a confusing term because Judaism is actually slightly younger the Christianity. Confused? Allow me to explain, the movement, religion or whatever you want to call it that came into Place through Moses in the wilderness and guided the Israelites and then the kingdom of Judah and later Judaea was not Judaism. If you were to put a similar label on it it would be Levi-ism . Judah was a tribe. They ruled from David onwards but all religious matters, instructions and teachings were not only exclusively administered by the tribe of Levi, but that was there inheritance through the Law of Moses. Everyone else got land, Levites got service to the Most High, Judaism only became the de facto when the Temple was destroyed and the Levites have been reduced to singers and have the dubious honour of the first Torah reading everything else has been usurped by Jewish Rabbis and the beginnings of that is rooted in the influence of Greek thought or Hellenisation and the opposition to it which ended up producing two schools of thought Pharisees and Sadducees but if you read the travails of Moses any tribe outside the Levites that tried to gain religious power were destroyed and any Levites that tried to appropriate the priesthood that was only for the sons of Aaron, Moses brother were destroyed. The Jewish legend or mid rash that says that the Talmud, the oral law they are obsessed with came through Moses also, if it started in those times it was started by a bunch of Jewish (tribe of Judah) elders complaining in the tent, ‘let’s go back to Egypt this Moses is going to get us killed and what’s with the funny hats?’.
@@aural_supremacy The cult of Iesuos is a greek fueled movement that is a typical greek merge with a local belief system. So what we have is competing greek-roman literature using greek tropes from Homer, Vergil, Euripides and greek philosophy mixed with some jewish ideas.
“The Temple Tantrum” OMG! That’s the name of your next book Doc! Don’t know how many people have unpacked that part of the NT, but it deserves some unpacking 😊.
I would love to share a pot of tea with these scholars! They are absolutely fascinating. Great chemistry!
I really like that this episode took the discourse in a totally different direction. Challenging and interesting :)
Interesting new ideas. Megan did a fantastic job introducing us to Robyn's views, would love to listen to part 2 with Bart pushing back from his "german" perspective!
Dr. Walsh is an amazing scholar. Love to learn from her. Entertaining
Robyn gives a good insight of how contemporary filters can stand in the way of a more factual understanding, how it REALLY was then! Her approach of the material is really refreshing and therefore her contributing has added value. At least to me.
Hey Megan. I'm amazed at the variety and multiplicity of your spectacles. Are you unfortunate and breaking 😢 them and having to replace them or........
This one was so good. I feel it tells something about how the formation of religion happened, the coexistence of elites and commoners, their folk literature. The Greek and other literature mixed up with scholastic skills of early apostles and forming a new religion! It shows how religions form, roughly. How it mingles with local culture and becomes mainstream through time. Then we are told to believe it as the only authentic narrative. Your analysis was great. I'm glad we are not making new religions now haha.. I might get the red book only if I could afford it :pp Thanks againn
Have you followed these ufo fanatics? They are definitely creating a new religion!
MAGA is a religion in the making.
18:44
"I'm glad we are not making new religions now haha.. " My boyfriend made a new religion. But he won't tell me about it. 😢
How about Scientology? Mormonism? Materialism? Communism? Scientism? Each ticks all the boxes of religious conceptualization of existence... a creation hypothesis, a "priest class" who tells you about what's real, and instructions on how you fit into it all.
Robyn is my favourite. Loved her book
I love how Robyn links the Germanic folk tales and Brothers Grimm to the folk tales of the early Christians, Romans and Greeks. And she taught me a new word that I can work with as a writer "Paradoxography". Brilliant! Thanks, Robyn and Megan!
Those glasses confuse my brain.
It's not fair to the rest of us mortals that beings exist as breathtakingly beautiful and otherworldly brilliant as these two.
Robyn’s book sounds intriguing. Paused the video to purchase a paperback copy. Looking forward to reading it.
I loved this. Why wasn't the book title in the notes?
When Dr Walsh speaks, I listen. Her new course is worth it, fellow scholars.
Very refreshing approach to the text.
Which other text in koine greek from the period is most similair to the gospels?
To all the distracted guys: turn off the screen and stay with audio only 😂
😊
Amen! Her being beautiful is totaly distracting. Gotta focus! haha
Love those glasses, Megan
Love this. It's badly needed to bring a more Classical perspective on these books, because so many New Testament scholars only know Greek from studying Koine "New Testament" Greek which has led their translations and understandings to be circularly "theological." Yes, Pneuma can be translated (and usually was, in Classical texts ) translated as words other than "spirit" as Dr. Walsh says here!
Fantastic conversation. Interesting scholarship. I've heard for so long about the Jewishness of Jesus, Paul and early Christianity that seeing the gospels through a classics/Greco-Roman lens feels like a big switch...but I'm listening. This interview passed the Bechdel test with flying colors too, which was nice
Megan’s quirky glasses! I couldn’t focus 😄
I had the same problem!
There are audio only formats on other platforms, y'know.
Walsh makes an interesting point. We approach the Bible as the story of one of the most popular religions on the planet. When it was written, Christianity was a Jewish cult. The majority of people in the second century would have thought of Christianity in the same way as we think of fringe cults today.
That is true. I also think that early christanity attracted my talented people who laid the theology and this religion became mainstream.
It is a greek-roman cult with a jewish flavour. We have greek-egyptian merge gods and Iesous is the jewish-greek variant.
I don’t understand why the idea that any author isn’t influenced by other authors is so taboo.
Particularly for the gospels this is because they are supposed to be inspired by God and a part of God's divine revelation. To say that these are influenced by Greco-Roman sources and that the gospels probably also borrowed from them almost feels like a type of apostasy and heresy if you come from a more fundamental or Evangelical point of view. Others though, may also still say that the reason that Greco-Roman text may also look like gospel text is because demons influenced and inspired the Greco-Roman text to look that way. I think that that is what Justin Martyr argues in his apologies from the 2nd Century and I have also heard personal friends use that very same argument.
Christianity is a greek-roman cult with a jewish flavour. We have only greek sources. They are written by greek authors for a greek audience using tropes from greek literature.
Fantastic. Thank you both.
Very good scholarship from both ladies; thx!
Already signed up for the ‘conference’ during Bart’s broadcast on Sunday.
Thanks Murph!
Meghan Lewis and her AWESOME glasses!
Here in Hawaii God has waved his hand and Exempted all churches from trash pick-up fees another great example is they'll form an exempt organization and never paid taxes net profit after they steal every dollar they can out of the exempt Foundation
And we all ask; why does God need money? 😏
@@bubbercakes528you cannot worship God and mammon (money)…. But give as much mammon to God as possible
Great interview! Cannot recommend Dr. Walsh‘s Paul course highly enough
Fascinating approach! So much food for thought. I really appreciate looking at the literature as if nothing is known about it and then proceeding as with any newly discovered ancient text. I am now a retired pastor, but I have read mountains most of my life endeavoring to find out what actually happened and who were these people. It seems to me, without discovering more ancient texts that give pointed information, we may never know. Yet it is so important because these stories have had a huge impact on all of history that followed, on lives of real people, on hopes and fears, of control and freedom, etc.
We know as it is obvious for everyone who read Homer, Euripides, Vergil and knows greek philosophy. Greek authors produced greek-roman literature in greek for a greek audience. This is obvious for every greek in the 2nd century. The problem in when Americans in the 21 century imagine it is their story.
Megan did a good job (as always) but it's a shame Bart couldn't make this one because it sounds like some of the things Robyn criticises are things that Bart has put forward I'm previous episodes, so it would have been nice to hear them discuss their differences in a constructive, scholarly way.
It would be interesting to hear Ehrman and Walsh in dialogue because you’re right… Walsh takes a much more cautious approach to many aspects of the field. Particularly when it comes to the idea of oral tradition. She thinks it’s an assumption not a fact that much of the material in the gospels is based on oral tradition, whereas Ehrman definitely hangs his hat on substantial amounts of oral tradition behind the gospels.
I have her book in my cart! Can't wait to read!
I love Bart, I love Robyn Faith Walsh, and I REALLY love Megan’s glasses!
And why not the conference link in the notes?
What I see in the gospels are stories that pushback on the pagan gods' powers attributed to them. The gospels give their character magical powers that are equal to the many ancient gods people were very fond of. It's also obvious they used a great deal of stories from more ancient writers like Homer, changing bits here and there and repurposing them for their purpose. Also, there were lots more written than the 4 in the NT.
"there were lots more written than the 4 in the NT"
So true! And I wish they would get more attention. After all, the 4 were only differentiated from those others and given a uniquely special authority after more than 200 years had passed and they had undergone numerous revisions. It seems inappropriate to approach the subject of early Christianity as if all those other writings weren't also pivotal in shaping and expressing the views of the people at that time.
@@fepeerreview3150 That's not really true though. There were certainly other Gospels, but all the evidence is that they were all later and usually more fanciful as time went on. Even in the earliest references that we can trace to the canonical 4, they're clearly seen as the most important and thus would always have had more effect on shaping the growing religion. Formal canonization was later, but just reflected what had already been long understood.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 Every single source claims to be the only authority. So John showed how false the others were as did every other single author. They considered themselves as the ONLY true story. So to compile stories must have been done long after the death of them.
Very interesting conversation.
Will there be an audio version of Dr. Walsh’s new book?
Them Glasses are Banging! I Love them❤️
Megan's glasses are great!
Where does Megan get her glasses I MUST know.
These two ladies are awesome!!!...👍🤔🤗✨🤟😎...
Excellent . Thank you !
What's the betting the holy grail he's after is Cornwall's best pasty?
Meghan's glasses are making me go cross-eyed.
Great episode as usual but, I just have to say: Your new glasses are awesome. 😃👓
A powerful Roman Senatorial family called the Calpurnius Pisos wrote the Gospels, that's according to Henry Davis who states this in his newly revised and updated book "Creating Christianity". Davis explains how he discovered the "Royal Code" and how he deciphered it, Mr. Davis is an historical researcher and you will be astounded by what he reveals, l appeal to you to read the book, it's jam packed with information.
Excellent TY so much
Woah I love those glasses
They are amazing!
Would love to hear Bart’s thoughts on this these views.
13:40 - Maybe the early 1900s expositors had the attitude "I do want to seek truth, but we mustn't offend the church too much".
Megan, are you reselling your frames every week at a mark-up and giving the proceeds to charity? I’ve watched dozens of episodes already and I swear I have never seen you wear the same pair of glasses twice… and they’re eye-catching every single time!
This approach on the gospels must be applicable on the Quran too?
Thank you
Thank you.
English glasses rule the waves ! ;)
My hope was to find an answer to the question: Is the New Testament Actually Greek Literature? Yes, No or Maybe. At the end of the video I am more confused that ever about this. The discussion is not structured and has no answer.
I agree. I'm going to have to actually read her book instead of relying on YT interviews. She leaves a lot unsaid about her findings. Probably intentional to stoke interest.
I felt like the answer was clear enough, but it depends on your criteria for whether a question is answered. If you want a firm “yes” or “no”, you should avoid any academic topics, since such plain answers are only available for base principles. For complex cultural processes among the vast variety of human activities and interactions in the real world, the answer is “both,” which means the purpose of this discussion is to understand how our views of the subject matter change when we tentatively accept the proposal that the answer is “yes.”
@@davidk7529 I do not think so. After 2000 year of studying the NT we should be able to answer to this question. Probably some other people can answer. Not the lady in the video. As regarding academic topics, this channel is so appreciated due to the fact that can transmit clear ideas and messages to the people in cases of complex Biblical texts. Of course the answer is not 100% sure but within a confidence interval a specialist may say YES or NO. The NT has 27 books and the authors are anonymous except the 7 letters of Saint Paul. My expectation was to do at least a sort of literary analysis of the 4 Gospels, Acts and Revelations. The Letters are probably difficult to interpret from the point of Greek language but not impossible and many interesting ideas could emerge. Instead we have learned a lot about how difficult the text is, about German Romantic era and so on.
"I was raised Catholic, I was a terrible student."
Too bad we weren't in the same school, hah!
P.S. Megan your glasses look absolutely ridiculous this time.
An unwelcome distraction. Speaks of a mental/psyhological imbalance.
So my critique if you can call it that concerns paradoxology. I will preface the critque with this. We cannot be absolutely certain when editing occurred to the gospels. Although now it seems likely that Luke is second century and bits and pieces of the gospel of John are being added in the third century. Having said that.
Paradoxollogy? Seriously. Most of what we have on this genre is after the third century. The only exception to this is On Marvelous things Heard, which is more or less a dirty laundry list of things added to a presumptive Aristotle, officially called Psuedo-aristotle and widely considered psuedepigraphy.
I wish Robyn would go into more detail about subversive biographies, both extrabiblical and biblical.
I’d trade every manuscript of the Bible for one new Sappho poem.
She’s really smart and pretty 😍
Robyn is indeed🤩
Okay...I just started watching. I don't want to miss saying this though... *_those eyeglasses are boss, Megan!_* Love them.
Intriguing conversation! I like her rebellious approach! -- Consistent with the Digital Hammurabi motto "How do you know that?"
For clarification, on the question of Gospel authors' relationship to a community (or communities), is it plausible to assume that one of their main sources on the life of Jesus was oral traditions circulating in Christian communities? And wouldn't Christian communities be their likely intended audience?
If so, how much or how little does Robyn Walsh think this relationship influenced their writings? And is the idea Robyn is challenging simply the notion that the Gospel authors didn't have their own perspective or agenda apart from, or above and beyond, the Christian circles? And so, is her goal exploring how the wider Greco-Roman culture influenced them, and how this influence has been overlooked? Sounds very interesting! It is certainly something I haven't thought about much. I've got homework to do!
I think she “over-corrects” to a pretty significant degree but you have a good read on why she’s an important scholar. Essentially, emphasizing the way Greco-Roman literary conceits influenced the construction of these texts.
In answer to your question yes, you are spot-on. If you haven't read book one of Livy's histories, then I highly recommend that. You will be unable to not notice how the Ascension of Romulus mirrors Jesus Ascension in the gospel of Matthew. And yet Livy wrote approximately 100 years before Matthew did. I think this type of analysis is what Robin and others are getting to.
These "communities" were at best people showing up sometime or move on to other religions or take part in several at a time. They jnew nothing about anything and have some hearsay. We have greek authors who write for a greek audience in greek using tropes from Homer, Vergil, Euripides and grerk philosophy. It is a typical merge cult and here is greek-jewish god mix as we have greek-egyptian god mix.
I apologise for being blunt, but the Elton John glasses theme is really starting to get to me…
I will settle for approaching the New Testament as strictly literature and as a product of a literary community. Fascinating what she argued about Mark injecting a Latinate influence into his Koine (Huck Finn) Greek. Seems like Jewish women were not allowed to oil up dead male bodies--according to Rabbi Singer--a lot of poetic license in these works. The Romantic British poet William Blake was very much attracted to Gnostic Christianity in poems like the The Tiger, hardly a man to take an Orthodox interpretation, but I see no Romantic nationalism in his approach, more a rebellion against orthodox religion, which perhaps is also a Romantic approach
Love the glasses Megan
The human brain/genome really has very few (repetitive) tropes, motifs and themes it responds to. Religion has branded the most powerful ones, eg, life after death, etc. It is worthwhile for anyone working with story telling and behavior, inlcu biz folks, artists etc - to dig into the sources.
The academic professionals are doing us alla services to uncover how these magical-religious stories were cobbled together. I am studying Dr. RFW's book and others closely.
Your glasses are giving me crazy eyes.
No cause as Nietzsche said "it's not even good Greek". The lacking of literary quality points to the fact that literary quality was not the goal of the authors. It was instead a message to the masses.
Must. Buy. Book.
17:00 Shakespeare would be ENGLISH not British or UK, especially since the UK did not exist in his time.
Robert Burns would be the relevant equivalent for Scotland.
Holy crap those glasses make me dizzy😂
Sorry Megan, but those glasses are giving me motion sickness.
One other important aspect I disagree with - the urge to place an overwhelming emphasis on “The Author”, which is itself an antiquated and romanticized conceit! And with the gospels this is especially dangerous - for example, Mark Bilby argues each gospel has 2 or 3 distinct layers of composition over a period of 50ish years. Luke being an especially powerful candidate for this conceptualization.
Wow, Robyn Walsh is so pretty.
Another great episode from Burt Herman. I love this podcast.
Seems from archeological findings in Pompeii or Vindolanda (a Roman fort in the UK) that much more people would write and read in Antiquity than scholars previously thought.
Do you mean graffiti ?
@@spiritualanarchist8162no I imagine they meant the Vindolanda tablets. Small thin wooden boards used for letters or short messages and written on with carbon based ink.
They were often written by scribes though and just signed/sealed by the person sending them. Even ones that appear not to be written by scribes could well be mainly from and to educated people like officers who were either higher status citizens or aristocratic tribal auxiliary leaders.
No they didn't.
@@murph8411 Well I guess for example merchants or centurions (To name but a few ) had to learn some basic means of writing and calculus. It's not that far fetched to presume a lot of Romans did learn some basic communications . To lead troops , buy and sell goods, etc.
I'm reminded of the Monty Python 'Romans go home' sketch. Neither Vindolanda nor Pompeii provide evidence of the high level literacy required to produce the gospels. Vindolanda tablets reveal military clerks could read and write simple records and letters. Pompeii graffiti reveal some civilians had basic literacy.
Omg sine wave glasses. I need a pair. Both of you bring real scholarship to the table and I don’t mean to imply anything by such a superficial comment but I teach electricians and think the glasses are rad.
I really want to know if there’s a story behind the frames changing every week, and I’m hoping it involves reselling them to fans for a mark-up that goes to charity 🥰
❤❤❤❤❤
Yeah Robyn is so very pretty 🤩
Yes and fiction. In what language are the greatest mythologies written? Greek. Oral tradition or otherwise a 'game of telephone'. Science-ignorant, magic-believing, superstitious people telling grandiose stories to get others to believe in their version of Jesus.
😮 My alma mater. She must be new there!
how can i not watch this🙂
30:55-31:12 That’s (mostly) ridiculous.
P.S./Edit: this really seems like a kind of rebranding of richard carrier to sound a tad bit more palatable for academia. It’s Jesus mythicism without saying Jesus mythicism.
Except she's stated other interviews that she is definitely not a mythicist and she thinks Paul was personally acquainted with people who knew Jesus.
@@Luke_Meyer That’s fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a fringe argument with very little weight that mainly appeals to mythicists.
@@danielgibson8799 yes, but definitely not quite as fringe as just "Jesus never existed at all". And plenty of scholars are open to doubting how much really can be reliably known based specifically on the gospels.
@@Luke_Meyer It is indeed true that the Gospels (especially the ones after “Mark”) don’t provide a reliable factual life of Jesus. Doesn’t mean that Paul was educated in paideia and the Last Supper is correlated with the satyricon.
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